The Ultimate Quest for Candidates: Round 2 – 1930’s/40’s

[Freakshow]

Welcome to The Ultimate Quest for Candidates (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=68815) – Round 2. This thread will have the second poll in the second round, combining the leading players from the polls for the 1930’s (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=69539) and the 1940’s (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=70496). Refer to the earlier threads for discussion and links to biographies.

There will be 15 players on the ballot. You will be asked to vote for 5 (FIVE) players. These 12 players automatically advanced to this round by their top finishes in the Round 1 polls:

83% Wes Ferrell
83% Stan Hack
79% Joe Gordon
79% Wally Berger
72% Vern Stephens
65% Tommy Bridges
65% Bob Johnson
59% Bucky Walters
52% Bob Elliott
45% Charlie Keller
45% Mickey Vernon
39% Buddy Myer

We need to decide who will get the other three spots on the ballot. There are nine runners-up who are under consideration:

38% Dom DiMaggio
36% Dick Bartell
36% Lefty O'Doul
31% Johnny Pesky
31% Cecil Travis
31% Lon Warneke
27% Babe Herman
24% Dolph Camilli
24% Johnny Sain

My personal picks are probably Pesky, Bartell and O’Doul with his extra contributions. Your input on this issue is strongly requested as we look to develop a consensus.

Below are the players we voted as the top 21 HOF candidates whose careers centered in the 1930’s and 1940’s.
Pos BJ Player Name Win Shares WARP3
8 #13 Wally Berger (241: 36-33-31) (78.6: 11.7-11.2-10.4)
1 #77 Tommy Bridges (241: 26-22-20) (88.1: 9.2-7.6-7.5)
5 #18 Bob Elliott (280: 29-27-27) (96.7: 12.1-9.6-9.3)
1 #40 Wes Ferrell (233: 35-32-28) (83.0: 13.6-11.1-10.4)
4 #16 Joe Gordon (286: 30-26-26) (102.5: 11.7-10.5-10.2)
5 #9 Stan Hack (309: 33-30-30) (105.0: 10.7-10.6-10.3)
7 #31 Bob Johnson (280: 29-28-25) (92.3: 9.6-9.4-8.5)
7 #17 Charlie Keller (260: 34-33-32) (82.6: 11.5-10.3-10.0)
4 #24 Buddy Myer (258: 33-24-23) (76.4: 10.4-10.0-6.3)
6 #22 Vern Stephens(257: 32-31-25) (82.9: 9.6-9.5-8.8)
3 #23 Mickey Vernon (335: 33-29-24) (88.8: 9.5-9.2-7.9)
1 #69 Bucky Walters (252: 38-32-29) (88.3: 13.3-9.4-8.8)
6 #37 Dick Bartell (266: 28-24-21) (113.3: 10.8-10.4-9.8) x
3 #29 Dolph Camilli (222: 29-28-27) (74.8: 10.7-9.9-9.4) x
8 #24 Dom DiMaggio(291: 27-26-26) (96.1: 9.6-9.1-8.9) x
9 #50 Babe Herman (232: 32-26-26) (64.8: 11.0-8.5-6.9) x
7 #52 Lefty O'Doul (144: 33-31-22) (43.4: 11.5-11.0-6.4) x
6 #20 Johnny Pesky (264: 34-27-27) (83.3: 11.5-10.5-9.3) x
1 --- Johnny Sain (200: 28-26-24) (75.4: 12.0-10.7-9.0) x
6 #29 Cecil Travis (244: 34-22-22) (91.1: 12.3-8.6-8.5) x
1 #44 Lon Warneke (220: 31-29-26) (71.9: 10.4-9.4-8.5) x

Pos – primary position(s)
BJ – rank at his position in the New Bill James Historical Baseball Abstract (2001)
Win Shares – shown are career total and best 3 years
WARP3 – from Baseball Prospectus; shown are career total and best 3 years
Other – O’Doul was instrumental in the development of baseball in Japan. He is still an icon in San Francisco, where he played and managed for many years. - Sain is probably the most respected pitching coach of his era.

Some other things to be aware of:
1) Bill James’ rankings emphasize players’ peak years; this results in long steady careers being rated lower than what may seem right.
2) Win shares during WW2 play are discounted: 3% for 1942, 6% for 1943, 9% for 1944, and 12% for 1945. YMMV. Camilli, Johnson, Hack, Stephens, and Walters lost both career and peak WS; Elliott has a small career deduction. Players are also conservatively credited for missed play due to military service. Bartell, Bridges, DiMaggio, Gordon, Keller, Pesky, Sain, Travis, and Vernon have additional WARP and WS for time lost 1942-45.

That leaves 15 players that dropped out of consideration after Round 1: Ben Chapman, Harlond Clift, Paul Derringer, Lonny Frey, Augie Galan, Mel Harder, Tommy Henrich, Joe Kuhel, Dutch Leonard, Red Lucas, Bobo Newsom, Charlier Root, Hal Trosky, Dizzy Trout and Virgil Trucks. Each of these candidates drew less than 19% support.

[Paul Wendt]

Sain and O'Doul have the big baseball "kickers". Sain has earned the title Coach. O'Doul has Japan and San Francisco. Indeed, he is a member of the hall of fame in Japan --and in the BBFever HOF.

Outside the Hall of Merit and BBFever incubators, only seven of these players come up in Hall of Fame conversation, as far as I know: Ferrell, Gordon, Hack, Johnson, and Stephens from the combined ballot plus DiMaggio and O'Doul on the bubble.
(Am I right that Pesky is popular only in Red Sox Nation? Or do I underestimate the powers of the dear departed Ted Williams and David Halberstam?)

Bartell is the strongest traditional Hall of Fame candidate on the bubble if not among all these players. I think it must be Hack or Bartell among all, not Vernon because the preceding generation firmly established extra batting prowess as a firm requirement at 1B. For Hack and Bartell, at least, I can only look at the list of roughly contemporary infielders they did elect and wonder why not him too?

Before age 27 Camilli played only his age-26 September in the majors. He was from San Francisco. Was he another star controlled by the PCL?

The salient HOF member for comparison with Herman may be Chuck Klein. Perhaps everyone puts Klein in the bottom half and some consider him a bad selection. Is Herman close enough to Klein that he belongs on the agenda?

That is more than I can say in favor of Cecil Travis as a candidate.

Bill James likes Warneke. The Hall is short of pitching from the 1930s. That isn't a lot in his favor but it's all I have.
(Satchel Paige worked a lot of games. He, Willie Foster, and Hilton Smith were in their late twenties to mid-thirties. Leon Day was there at the end of the decade.)

[jalbright]

For the other three spots on the ballot, I'd favor Pesky and O'Doul. The 40's are such a mess because of WW II, and it impacts many of the careers here. It becomes difficult to sort out.

[jjpm74]

Johnny Pesky and Babe Herman are two I'd throw my support out there for. For a third, I'm not really sure and am evenly split.

[baseballPAP]

O'Doul, Pesky and Warneke for me....although O'Doul is the only one whom I'd give any real consideration to.

[leecemark]

--O'Doul has an interesting overall package. It is pretty unconventional though. He is not close as a player - or at least a MLB player. His PCL career is much more interesting and sinificant than his NL career. His helping to bring the game to Japan helps. I don't know if I actually support him or not, but he is my first choice for the ballot add ons.
--Johnny Sain would be another unconventional choice. Again his MLB career is clearly short of the mark. In his case his coaching career has more merit than his playing one. As far as I know he would be the first person to make mostly for coaching. Still his case his interesting in comparsion to the rest, so call him my #2.
--Lon Warneke was only this much behind Dizy Dean as a pitcher. He is this much behind him in terms of fame. I guess one fo my three should be based strictly on what they actually accomplished on a major league diamond so make him number 3.

[Paul Wendt]

oh, i voted for Bartell, Camilli, and Sain but my current thoughts for the ballot may be represented, in order,
O'Doul, Bartell
Sain, DiMaggio, Pesky
Warneke, Herman
Camilli
Travis
where a "carriage return, line feed" is bigger than a comma.

[Erik Bedard]

O'Doul and Warneke certainly get two of my three spots for the bubble guys. The other spot could go to Bartell, Pesky, Herman, or Sain without me caring too much.

[dgarza]

For the runners up, I like Camilli & Herman, with O'Doul or Warneke bringing up the rear.

[Brad Harris]

O'Doul, Pesky and Warneke

[Paul Wendt]

So there isn't any support for Cecil Travis at this stage.
Other than that, we're all helping make it more fun for you, Mr. Commissioner.

[Brad Harris]

Travis would be my fourth pick, were we to have one.

[Freakshow]

I'll give people one more day to chime in on who should make the ballot and post the poll Tuesday night.

[Cougar]

There are four i really like: O'Doul, Dom D, Travis, and Pesky.

It's hard to choose between Pesky and Travis -- both of their careers were so terribly truncated by WWII. (As was Dom D's.)

I'll throw in with Pesky using lifetime service as a tiebreaker...Pesky's been involved in the Red Sox organization for something like 60 years now.

O'Doul
Dom Dimaggio
Pesky

Hon mention: Travis.

[Chickazoola]

O'Doul, Warneke and Dom

[Freakshow]

Other than that, we're all helping make it more fun for you, Mr. Commissioner.
Thankfully, our little straw poll has again reached a clear verdict, rendering any exercising of "Commissioner Privilege" on my part unnecessary.

Lefty O'Doul, Johnny Pesky and Lon Warneke were mentioned by a majority of the eleven posters that offered their opinion. They have been included among the top 15 candidates for the Hall of Fame from the 1930's and 1940's. Gracias, amigos.

The poll will be open for five weeks. Again, we want your top 5 players in this poll, no more and no less. As always, go beyond the numbers and base your votes on the total contribution to baseball made by these men.

[Paul Wendt]

Here they are by fielding position.
LF CF RF
Johnson Berger --
Keller
O'Doul

3B SS 2B 1B
Elliott Pesky Gordon Vernon
Hack Stephens Myer

P
Bridges
Ferrell
Walters
Warneke

C
--

This time I was able to vote as soon as I located the ballot: Berger, Keller, Gordon, Hack, Ferrell (reading down this table). I support these five for Cooperstown, all as great players. I'm not sure about Elliott and O'Doul.

All of the five but Hack have short careers among plausible HOF candidates, and Hack is only a medium long. Short and medium almost fill this ballot, I see.

Only O'Doul has a notable kicker, his role in Japan. Right?

I suppose that Gordon and Hack are strong candidates to advance through this round and the next, 1910s-40s.

[jjpm74]

I'll be surprised if Gordon doesn't get through to the final ballot. Short career or not.

[dgarza]

Sorry, I voted for 1 too many. Please take off my Tommy Bridges vote.

My vote should be :
1. Vern Stephens
2. Bob Johnson
3. Stank Hack
4. Joe Gordon
5. Bob Elliott

All should be HOFers.

[Brad Harris]

Ferrell
Gordon
Hack
Johnson
Vernon

[Paul Wendt]

Wally Berger and Wes Ferrell are the best players of the 1930s outside the Hall of Fame and should be easy choices for anyone who can be satisfied with a short mlb career. (Same for Charlie Keller from WWII, a career short in years even if WWII seasons are filled in.)


Wally Berger put up 2+ big seasons in Los Angeles, late 1927 to 1929, and he was a great mlb player when he arrived in Boston. (The delay probably brought Berger the rookie home run record for 57 years. Mark McGwire keeps that one without any quibbles. It was a trivia-l thing about Berger after Frank Robinson tied it --trivial, and the only thing that brought him to attention of my generation.) Some of you will recognize part of a Hall of Fame resume in those PCL seasons, a league that still enjoyed some control of its players.

Berger was a good centerfielder and a stronger batter than Earl Averill for a short 8 rather than Averill's full 10 seasons after getting off the Coast. According to BBLibrary, he suffered a bad shoulder injury in 1936 and never fully recovered. For some more information visit Wally Berger at the Hall of Merit (http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/files/hall_of_merit/discussion/wally_berger/) (not elected).

Elsewhere in this forum is "AG2004's Keltner List" for Berger, which concludes with thumbs up for the HOF. That's more than many of you will conclude if you take a close look, but it's probably also more than anyone needs to advance from this group. Does anyone surely support five of them for the Hall of Fame?

Wes Ferrell extended his mlb record, some would say marred it, by coming back for more punishment a few times. But his full-time career is short. Just in case anyone does know, he was one of the very best batters with a real pitching career.

It must be easier for hurt pitchers than for hurt "players" to come back, or come almost back. Haven't we seen that time and again? Pedro Borbon, Jim Palmer, Jose Rijo came back after several seasons out. Part of it is that pitchers don't depend on getting/keeping the whole body in shape (not that every regular does). When rest makes the arm feel better, it isn't such a long way back to the pitchers mound.

[Freakshow]

voter turnout is low - depressed by the winter storm warnings?Yea, verily!

This is the next poll to close -- only five more days for voters to check in. I know it's not the most inspiring group, but it's important we send on the right guys to Round 3.

[Freakshow]

Like the title says.

Pick five.

[MadHatter]

Bridges
Ferrell
Pesky
Stephens
Walters

Pesky is more of a "favorite" vote for me.

[Freakshow]

This poll has now closed. With 20 voters weighing in, there are five players assured of being on the ballot in Round 3, the best Hall of Fame Candidates from the 1930's and 40's:

Wally Berger
Wes Ferrell
Joe Gordon
Stan Hack
Vern Stephens

These five will be combined with the top five from the 1910's/20's poll, plus three at-large spots.

These four players have earned consideration for an at-large spot on the ballot in Round 3:

Bob Johnson
Charlie Keller
Lefty O'Doul
Mickey Vernon

Three voters cast ballots with the incorrect number of votes. The corrections resulted in changes from the poll above; Bridges and Stephens each lose a vote while Pesky and Vernon each gain one. Here are the official results of the 1930's/40's poll:

Advances to Rd. 3 Ballots Points Percent
Stan Hack 17 17 85.0%
Wes Ferrell 16 16 80.0%
Joe Gordon 15 15 75.0%
Wally Berger 8 8 40.0%
Vern Stephens 7 7 35.0%
At-large Candidates
Charlie Keller 6 6 30.0%
Lefty O'Doul 6 6 30.0%
Bob Johnson 5 5 25.0%
Mickey Vernon 5 5 25.0%
Also-Ran
Tommy Bridges 4 4 20.0%
Bob Elliott 3 3 15.0%
Johnny Pesky 3 3 15.0%
Bucky Walters 3 3 15.0%
Lon Warneke 2 2 10.0%
Buddy Myer 0 0 0.0%