Pitcher's Velocity Gain from PED (average)

[Old Sweater]

Just like to see what ya'll think on the matter.

[Old Sweater]

I'd like to read the comments on the 3 that voted for 5mph as to how they came to this conclusion.

[Imgran]

I've always been under the impression that for pitchers, PED was always more about endurance than gaining velocity. I was also under the impression that while conditioning does affect velocity, balance and mechanics are much bigger factors.

[brett]

Anabolics would not necessarily add any speed, though they could if the player had weak legs/base and built up his legs and back and abs.

Throwing a baseball fast is almost entirely due to flexibility and how the player's reflexes are wired (high threshold or low threshold). Any weightlifting of the upper extremities would HURT absolute maximal velocity because all forms of weight training (or any training for that matter) remove Type IIb muscle fibers from the muscle pool. These are the absolute fastest.

Although it is somewhat more complex than this, practically, you have Type I (slow), Type IIa, (fast/strength endurance) and Type IIb or IIx (fastest but no endurance).

ANY strength training will move the slow OR fastest fibers toward the middle ground.

I-------------->IIb<-------------IIa/IIx

After a training session, rest causes a shift back of IIb to IIa/x. Pitchers probably burn out over a season because their IIa/IIx are ALL moved into the IIb type because of the frequency and volume of work.

Recovery agents therefore can keep a player from ever dropping off over the season. They throw 95 all year instead of starting to lose some velocity as they lose the fastest fibers.

Leg strength is totally different though. Most of this comes from IIb fibers because they don't have to be ultra fast.

There are also specific aids which raise the nervous system reflex threshold and allows you to throw/run faster without having your nervous system put on the brakes.

Leg strength + higher reflex threshold + enough recover to prevent burnout.

[Sweet Lou]

brett, that was an interesting and informative post. Thanks! :applaud::thumbsup:

[MyDogSparty]

Dan Naulty, admitted steroid user, claims (link (http://www.thejockrap.com/?p=562)) that he lost close to 15MPH on his fastball when he stopped using steroids.

There used to be a video of him talking about it on ESPN OTL but it's not there anymore. It was pretty moving. It was first hand experience.

Opps, I found the video: http://sports.espn.go.com/broadband/video/videopage?&brand=null&videoId=3205493&n8pe6c=1

[RubeBaker]

Just look at Roger Clemans. He never gained any velocity back on his fastball. All they do is help them heal and help with longevity. They do NOT add any speed to the pitch.

[Skin & Bones]

Just look at Roger Clemans. He never gained any velocity back on his fastball. All they do is help them heal and help with longevity. They do NOT add any speed to the pitch.

So I guess Naulty and Crawford were confused?

[Imgran]

Maybe steroids stop bad mechanics from killing an arm allowing you to maintain velocity even with a self-destructive delivery?

[brett]

Maybe steroids stop bad mechanics from killing an arm allowing you to maintain velocity even with a self-destructive delivery?

Actually they tend to make the muscles strong faster than the tendons, and so create an imbalance that would result in basically the mucle tearing the tendon. They also may raise the muscles threshold for force production. Again this would increase injuries.

They would prevent injuries by allowing strength imbalances in the legs, abs and back to be eliminated, resulting in more proper form.

[bob]

So why did pitchers take them if it makes them more injury prone and slows them down?

[Old Sweater]

So why did pitchers take them if it makes them more injury prone and slows them down?


From the articles I have read and like some other BBF posters have stated, it is mostly used for recovery by pitchers but they still run the risk of tendon and ligament damage no matter what the PED is that they use. The pitchers that run the highest risk of injury though are the ones that use the PED to strengthen the arm it's self. Strength is not a factor in throwing the ball since it weight's so little (5oz?) Flexibility is valued way more for velocity and the arm you're born with is more or less what you have with little gain for improvement of velocity, especially when you hit the top level of baseball and even less the closer you are to the human ceiling of 100mph. The ceiling is around 100mph and always will remain around 100mph as long as a human arm is used.

[fenrir]

i say pitchers gain 3-5mph. sure injuries is a possibility but thats why clemens had a personal trainer to inject him with the right dosage that will enhance his performance, but will not injure him. mcnamee knew what he was doing, thats why clemens hired him.

[Old Sweater]

i say pitchers gain 3-5mph. sure injuries is a possibility but thats why clemens had a personal trainer to inject him with the right dosage that will enhance his performance, but will not injure him. mcnamee knew what he was doing, thats why clemens hired him.

If McNamee knew what he was doing, why didn't Pettitte know about short term use of HGH?

One admitted user that use to pitch for the Red Sox, made a claim of 3mph but his arm blew and he is now working on the family farm.


Edit: The Red Sox pitchers name is Paxton Crawford. I couldn't find the info where Paxton Crawford claimed the 3mph in velocity that I read about a year ago. He was using the high tech stuff and his shoulder and back still went on him. Paxton is also the clown that claimed to fall out of bed on a glass and wasn't to well liked in the club house.


The 28-year-old Crawford went 5-1 for the Red Sox in 2000 and 2001, but never pitched at the major league level after that. Back problems (which he blames on steroid use) ultimately spelled the end for Crawford, whose career ended in the minor leagues in 2005. According to ESPN The Magazine, he is currently working on his family’s farm in Arkansas.


I started off injecting myself in the ass with 1 cc of Deca every week, a lot less than some guys were taking. I was also introduced to Winstrol, or Winny. That was the big thing with pitchers -- a combo of Winny and Deca. Winny would improve your fast-twitch muscles and help you gain velocity. Deca, which is oil-based, would keep your tendons and joints lubed up and make you feel better the next morning.

[fenrir]

i dont know anything about crawford...or who he even was until now...but you cant compare clemens to some fringe relief pitcher who could barely hack it in the majors in the first place. clemens is a workout fiend...and mcnamee has a phd. clemens knew what he was doing and how to maximize the benefits of roids and hgh. he may have spent a couple of weeks on the dl during certain seasons, but overall he was very healthy...thanks to his "medicine"...

[Old Sweater]

i dont know anything about crawford...or who he even was until now...but you cant compare clemens to some fringe relief pitcher who could barely hack it in the majors in the first place. clemens is a workout fiend...and mcnamee has a phd. clemens knew what he was doing and how to maximize the benefits of roids and hgh. he may have spent a couple of weeks on the dl during certain seasons, but overall he was very healthy...thanks to his "medicine"...

I just used Paxton Crawford because he admitted using and claimed to have increased his velocity 3mph. Clemens if he used PED's certainly didn't need no velocity increase.

The poll was for average increase in velocity, not the hearsay of one or two pitchers.

I would just like to know how you think that a pitcher gains 3-5mph velocity increase when most pitchers use it for recovery and can maintain thier top velocity longer. If you use the other PED's like Paxton Crawford did you more or likely going to blow up your arm.

[fenrir]

crawford didnt know what the heck he was doing, clemens did. they cant be compared.

[Old Sweater]

crawford didnt know what the heck he was doing, clemens did. they cant be compared.

Your right, Crawford admitted use and Clemens hasn't.


It still remains a fact though that strength dosen't factor into throwing a 5 oz ball as much as flexibility, and if you use the high tech PED's like winny and deca, you don't gain much in velocity if any, and run a high risk of arm injury. HGH just is used for recovery and sure as heck don't give you a 3-5mph boost in velocity.

I just can't see why anyone would think that PED's, would give the average of a 5mph gain other then hearsay or self assumption. 3mph by most medical articles is a stretch much less 5 and the average of 5 by all pitchers is really far fetched.

I haven't seen one article with a link, by any of the 7 posters, who voted 5mph, that back such a claim. There isn't any, it's all assumption and hear say. Not one such medical article exists to back to back a 5mph claim. If there was I would be interested in reading it.

[fenrir]

not all pitchers would benefit as much as clemens did. giving steroids and hgh to an already great power pitcher would provide fantastic results. he used them for power and to dominate much longer then he otherwise would have. when his velocity should of been declining he still was throwing heat...thats where the roids helped big time. back when he was with toronto it was clear that his velocity magically appeared again after a 4-5 years period of decline. the roids and hgh helped him big time, there's no way around it. he knows they did and thats why he wont admit to cheating.

[MyDogSparty]

Old Sweater, what did you vote for ?

[Old Sweater]

So I guess Naulty and Crawford were confused?

No, not really. PED's ended their very short careers.

Naulty described how he gained over 40 pounds of muscle. How this caused tendon injuries. How the speed and the booze almost destroyed him. And he reflects on the juice:

Dan Nautly/160 2/3 innings pitched/ 4.54 era



The 28-year-old Crawford went 5-1 for the Red Sox in 2000 and 2001, but never pitched at the major league level after that. Back problems (which he blames on steroid use) ultimately spelled the end for Crawford, whose career ended in the minor leagues in 2005


Paxton Crawford/65 innings pitched/4.15 era


Paxton Crawford claimed 3mph hearsay velocity increase but he also calimed falling out of bed on a glass.

What is Dan Nautly's claim of velocity increase and is there actually any speed gun proof.

We all know that a pitchers fastball can vary 3-5mph in two back to back starts so before I believe a pitchers claim of 3-5 velocity increase I would have to see some speed gun readings from the same speed gun before I believe it.

Besides, Nautly and Crawford only had a combined total of innings pitched for 1 year as a starter. Not near enough hearsay to think that all MLB pitchers gain a average of 3-5 mph velocity increase.


As I said in my 1st post of the poll and the poll question. This is for the average of all pitchers who try PED's.

[Old Sweater]

not all pitchers would benefit as much as clemens did. giving steroids and hgh to an already great power pitcher would provide fantastic results. he used them for power and to dominate much longer then he otherwise would have. when his velocity should of been declining he still was throwing heat...thats where the roids helped big time. back when he was with toronto it was clear that his velocity magically appeared again after a 4-5 years period of decline. the roids and hgh helped him big time, there's no way around it. he knows they did and thats why he wont admit to cheating.



This is all self assumption on one pitcher. Once again, HGH is used for recovery and is the last PED that a pitcher would use for a assumed velocity increase. Even a pitcher who had the smartest doctor in the world on PED's would run a high risk of using winny and deca for velocity increase.

You keep just using Clemens as a example. There just ain't that many pitchers of Clemens caliber born with that good of a arm. This is a poll for the average velocity gained by all pitchers who try PED's for velocity increase. Not just Clemens. Your claim of 3-5 for all pitchers is really far fetched and you have based this claim on one HOF stat pitcher.

[Old Sweater]

Old Sweater, what did you vote for ?

Goose egg. I would go as far as 1mph to grow on at the most.

I have read these and other articles and for the life of me I don't know why any pitcher would use any PED except for recovery.

Still, according to experts in biomechanics, that 100-mph ceiling isn't an illusion—it's a basic property of human physiology. A pitcher generates momentum by rocking onto his back leg and thrusting forward. After that he rotates his pelvis and upper trunk, then his elbow, shoulder, and wrist. Intuitively, it seems like building up the muscles in the legs, upper body, arm, and shoulder would generate more force and make his arm move faster. The reality: There's a point when more torque doesn't yield a faster pitch. It simply causes tendons and ligaments to snap, detaching muscles from bones and bones from one another. (Tendons connect muscles to bones; ligaments connect bones to each other.)



Why do sprinters keep getting faster while baseball pitchers seem to have maxed out? Because track athletes don't approach the limits of what human tendons and ligaments can handle. When you run the 100-meter dash, no single stride represents as violent a motion as the arm makes during a single overhand pitch. Sprinters can build up their muscles without worrying that the extra force will rip their ligaments apart—that's why steroid use seems to make sprinters faster but won't help pitchers generate velocity beyond a certain point. (A better reason for a pitcher to take steroids would be to decrease the time it takes to recover between games.)



http://www.slate.com/id/2116402



Thursday, May 04, 2006

Why Would A Pitcher Take Steroids?


Amy Shipley wrote an interesting article that appeared in Sunday's edition of the Washington Post about steroid use among pitchers in baseball ("Do Steroids Give A Shot in the Arm?"). Most medical experts are generally in agreement that steroid use (1) is not going to increase velocity, (2) restricts range of motion, and (3) weakens ligaments, tendons and connective tissue. Shipley quotes one veteran baseball trainer who summed up fairly well the likely impact that steroid use has on pitchers:


http://sports-law.blogspot.com/2006/05/why-would-pitcher-take-steroids.html


House said he gained almost 30 pounds while using steroids, blaming the extra weight for contributing to knee problems. He said the drugs helped improve recovery time and conditioning but did not add velocity to his fastball.


http://www.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/2005-05-03-steroids-house_x.htm


Boston reliever Mike Timlin, who has pitched for six teams in a 15-year major league career, theorized that pitchers used steroids "more for recovery and longevity rather than just all-out strength."

"It's kind of blown out of proportion, even with hitters," Timlin said. "Hitters are not looking for all-out strength or size. What they're looking for is to have a regular amount of strength day in and day out. That's why they take it. That's why pitchers take it."


Medical experts say that the muscle growth promoted by steroids does not include a corresponding growth in the tendons, ligaments and other connective tissue that effectively hold the arm together when it is catapulted violently during a pitch. A side effect of steroids, in fact, is a weakening of that connective tissue, which can lead to a variety of injuries when artificially strengthened muscles apply too much force.





http://www.nytimes.com/2005/05/18/sports/baseball/18steroids.html?_r=1&pagewanted=2&oref=slogin


"It's an absolutely fascinating question," said Don Catlin, the director of the Los Angeles laboratory that carries out the testing for minor league baseball. "The knee-jerk response is they will help you throw faster. We all know if you throw 93 [miles per hour] today and 98 tomorrow, that will make a big difference in your career. But the information we have doesn't really support that."


Several medical experts said even if the risk of injury weren't so high, pitchers would still run into another problem: The velocity of their pitches likely would not improve substantially. Frank Jobe, the longtime Los Angeles Dodgers team physician credited with the invention of ligament replacement surgery (Tommy John surgery), speculated that steroids could earn a pitcher perhaps an extra 2 mph on his fastball.


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/04/29/AR2006042901195_pf.html


Thousands of high school and college pitchers will waste hour up on hour in the weight room thinking that getting bigger and stronger is going to help them perform better on the mound come next Spring. However, this is a total myth perpetuated by the strength training industry who have much to gain. Pitching on the other hand will waste a lot of their valuable time.



http://www.pitching.com/article/strength-and-power-weight-room-training-does-not-improve-baseball-performance/



God gave each and everyone of us certain abilities; use them. Some were born with strong arms, with durable arms, and some with average arms. If you watch a big leaguer closely he uses his God given talent to the fullest. Some are overpoweringly fast, but all have one thing in common: desire and a smart head. Ask any pitcher if his fast ball is high he is in trouble, they keep it around the knees. If he cannot throw "asperin tablets" he is cute; he will set up a hitter by working the corners, so if you do not possess an overpowering arm use your head.



http://ux.brookdalecc.edu/fac/writing/jcody/Baseball/pitching.html


Long after he retired, Nolan Ryan illustrated the significance of recovery for a pitcher. Ryan participated in a charity event a few years ago in Round Rock, Texas, at which businessmen donated as much as $10,000 to take swings against him.

Ryan, in his mid-50s at the time, consistently threw 89 to 91 mph. One pitch registered 93 mph on the radar gun, prompting several Round Rock minor-leaguers to excitedly, half-jokingly tell Ryan he still could pitch in the majors. "Maybe if I only have to pitch once a month," he said.

His point -- recovery after a start is instrumental and becomes more difficult with age -- helps explain why steroids tempt pitchers. Anecdotal evidence confirms these drugs boost endurance, vital in a 162-game season.


http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/baseball/222726_roids04.html



Does a pitcher even need an opportunity to use steroids? Yes - to recover from the most unnatural act in the game: throwing a baseball.


A juiced-up hitter still has to apply his other skills to take advantage of the additional strength. But for pitchers, the link between enhancers and on-field performance is more direct: Whether you work out hard or not, you'll almost certainly feel more capable the next day. Hitters use steroids and human growth hormone to build a more powerful weapon: their swing. Pitchers use the stuff to reload-rearm, in fact-the weapon they already have. Days of recovery are squeezed into hours.
There are risks, no doubt. Doctors warn that performance-enhancing drugs can wither ligaments and tendons. Anecdotally, there seems to have been a spike in elbow ligament reconstruction surgeries, from high school to the major leagues. And nobody fully knows the long-term health ramifications for the users. "There are significant ill effects that scare me," says Dr. Timothy Kremchek, the Reds' medical director and an orthopedic surgeon whose attention is increasingly coveted by injured players.


Hershiser, who won 204 games in 18 years and spent three-plus seasons as a pitching coach, remembers when hitters started piling muscles on top of their muscles, and how pitchers scrambled to catch up. Some moved far beyond the weight room. With the help of shadowy personal trainers, they figured out how to benefit from performance-enhancing drugs: The stuff healed them.

"A 32-year-old pitcher using steroids can jump back 10 years in time," says Hershiser, now an ESPN analyst. "A 32-year-old becomes like a 22-year-old, because of the recovery. Plus, he gets the benefit of recovering fast enough to be able to lift weights, so he's got additional strength and improved recovery between starts." The weights are a lot heavier now.


Doctors at the American Sports Medicine Institute in Birmingham, Ala., have determined that every time a pitcher throws an 80 mph fastball, "the strain on the ulnar collateral ligament is redlining," says Dr. Tracy Ray, who works alongside another star baseball surgeon, Dr. James Andrews. That means the ligament is on the verge of the breaking point. And on any game day, a starting pitcher might throw 200 pitches in that range, from warmups to high-stress fastballs in a late-inning jam. A reliever might throw 40 to 50 per outing.


When Grimsley joined the Yankees in 1999, he consistently threw 91 to 93 mph. He allegedly told federal agents he began using performance-enhancing drugs the following year, and in 2001 one team clocked him at 96 to 98 mph. "Far
beyond anything we had seen when he was with the Yankees," says one executive. "How do you think that happened?"


^ This is the same thing you always hear about a 5mph gain. They never mention the teams name or if the same speed gun was used, plus as most of us know from pitchers on our own teams that a pitchers velocity can change 5mph from start to start, If Grimsly hit 96-98 for the whole season with the same speed gun this point would be more valid. I never have been able to find one article with any documented proof of any signifigant gain in velocity. Most claims of increased velocity is hearsay.


http://sports.espn.go.com/espnmag/story?id=3246463


Different readings on speed guns.

Different radar guns can produce different readings for the exact same pitch. Some guns measure velocity just after a pitcher releases the ball; others calculate velocity just before it crosses home plate. According to most estimates, a baseball loses between 3 and 5 mph between these two points. Today, most major-league clubs use devices that take the earlier reading—what scouts call the "fast gun."


"That's why guys don't play until they're 50," said Flanagan, who is 53 and appears to be among the more well-informed executives on performance-enhancing drugs. "It's recovery time. I'd still be playing if we played twice a week. That's what the end of your career is. It's not that you can't do it. You just can't do it six out of seven days anymore."


http://www.nytimes.com/2005/05/18/sports/baseball/18steroids.html?pagewanted=all


Another theory is that because leg strength gives pitchers more power, and steroids help build that strength, then it must be a benefit for pitchers to take them. But in order for that theory to hold true, pitchers would have to take steroids and work on strengthening only their lower bodies, and they would still be subject to the side effects that weaken connective tissue

"It's a question in everybody's head: Has it helped anybody in terms of performance?" said Robert Donatelli, a physical therapist who has consulted for the Milwaukee Brewers and Philadelphia Phillies and tennis player Andy Roddick. "With pitchers, I don't really see how that would help them in terms of improving velocity. The velocity is mostly dependent upon how far the arm goes back . . . [and] how much time the hand has to develop speed to throw the ball.

"I don't care how strong you are; you can't have a short arc of rotation."


Donatelli said reaching peak velocity in the pitching motion could be compared to a race car's acceleration. If a car can climb from zero to 60 mph in four seconds, it might reach 75 mph in five. The theory is similar for pitching: The farther back a pitcher can take his arm, the more time he has to accelerate the ball before releasing it. Brute strength has little to do with it, Donatelli said, which is why skinny pitchers such as New York Yankees reliever Mariano Rivera and New York Mets ace Pedro Martinez are able to throw hard.



When "the radar gun came in, everyone decided we need to get only those pitchers that can throw really, really, really hard," Marshall said. "If they can't throw 90 miles per hour, they've got to find a way to get as much velocity as they can, everything else be damned. . . . I understand the lure of it."

Marshall, however, said he believes the lure is a sham.

"The good news is, when pitchers use steroids, they hurt themselves and are not successful," Marshall said. "There is no question you can throw harder but . . . you are going to hurt yourself."


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/04/29/AR2006042901195_3.html

The single biggest reason that more high school and college pitchers never reach their full potential is because they waste their time doing activities that will never produce the promised results of better velocity or control. They are taught to believe that more arm strength will produce more velocity. This is wrong!

http://www.pitching.com/


I noticed this year that the Twins closer Joe Nathan is 6'5" 200 lbs. Joe routinely hits 96-98 mph. Probably skinny to most D1 coaches or pro scouts. But Joe also throws much harder than Roger Clemens who outweighs him by 40 lbs or Curt Schilling who outweighs him by 25-30 lbs. What gives here?

Pitching velocity is not about strength or who is the biggest…although taller can have advantages in more leverage. However, some small pitchers can throw hard too because they move even faster and more explosively.

Twins Joe Nathan is more explosive than Clemens or Schilling.


http://www.pitching.com/blog/57/the-bigger-and-stronger-pitcher-who-lost-velocity/

[Skin & Bones]

not all pitchers would benefit as much as clemens did. giving steroids and hgh to an already great power pitcher would provide fantastic results. he used them for power and to dominate much longer then he otherwise would have. when his velocity should of been declining he still was throwing heat...thats where the roids helped big time. back when he was with toronto it was clear that his velocity magically appeared again after a 4-5 years period of decline. the roids and hgh helped him big time, there's no way around it. he knows they did and thats why he wont admit to cheating.

This doesn't make sense, and is based on nothing but assumptions.

[Skin & Bones]

Goose egg. I would go as far as 1mph to grow on at the most.

I have read these and other articles and for the life of me I don't know why any pitcher would use any PED except for recovery.

I'm not sure what the point of all that was, but none of that "proves" that Drug's can't boost a pitchers velocity.

In fact, in one of your articles, you left off this bit of information: "The good news is, when pitchers use steroids, they hurt themselves and are not successful," Marshall said. "There is no question you can throw harder but . . . you are going to hurt yourself."

Note that he's only talking about steroids. So if a pitcher gets injured while taking Winstrol, deca, or whatever, what do you think the point of taking HGH is, Old?

As to Paxton Crawford, the guy had back problems before any steroid use.

[Skin & Bones]

No, not really. PED's ended their very short careers.

PED's were probably the reason they were major league caliber to begin with. In Naulty's case, he even says it was.



What is Dan Nautly's claim of velocity increase and is there actually any speed gun proof.

The claim of Naulty's improved velocity comes from his own mouth. Look at the Video MyDogSparty posted. Naulty even notes that when he stopped juicing, his velocity dropped drastically. Is that merely a coincidence?


Besides, Nautly and Crawford only had a combined total of innings pitched for 1 year as a starter. Not near enough hearsay to think that all MLB pitchers gain a average of 3-5 mph velocity increase.

Jeremy Giambi barely had a major league career himself, but I don't doubt PED's helped him. The same applies to Naulty and Crawford

[Old Sweater]

Yeah you yanked one quote down that said a pitcher can throw harder out of the many that say otherwise.

And you keep using 2 pitchers that had short careers with hearsay evidence.

There is not one documented gain of velocity increase from PED's besides hearsay and it is outrageous for anyone who has read the amount of articles that you have to think the average for all pitchers to even have a gain of 3mph increase in velocity. 5mph should be a fantasy movie at this point in time.

Just take the average of the articles I have posted and do a average gain of the hearsay and medical.

Paxton Crawford could have had previous back problems but in one article I read he also developed shoulder problems. Winny+Deca=short career/Human=human arm

Plus looking at Crawfords and Nautlys stats I wasn't to impressed. They would have been better off trying to learn movement on a pitched ball.

[Old Sweater]

Jeremy Giambi barely had a major league career himself, but I don't doubt PED's helped him. The same applies to Naulty and Crawford


Most articles do state that PED's would help a batter more then a pitcher but the draw back is that PED's dont hit the ball for you.

[Skin & Bones]

Yeah you yanked one quote down that said a pitcher can throw harder out of the many that say otherwise.

The majority of articles you posted were back in 2005, when people were even questioning whether or not steroids even helped hitters.

I'm still not sure what your looking for exactly. What "study" do you want? The closest thing to a "study" you will find is the details of the pitchers who actually used these drugs and saw their velocity improve. I doubt you'll ever see any "detailed studies" since they will not allow human studies to show the real effects of steroid use compared to not using steroids.

[Skin & Bones]

Most articles do state that PED's would help a batter more then a pitcher but the draw back is that PED's dont hit the ball for you.

And these articles would be basing their opinions on what exactly?

[Old Sweater]

And these articles would be basing their opinions on what exactly?

That muscle mass would help a hitter more then a pitcher.

Increases bat speed.

Swinging a bat is more of a natural motion then pitching.


It's in the links I posted.

[Old Sweater]

The majority of articles you posted were back in 2005, when people were even questioning whether or not steroids even helped hitters.

I'm still not sure what your looking for exactly. What "study" do you want? The closest thing to a "study" you will find is the details of the pitchers who actually used these drugs and saw their velocity improve. I doubt you'll ever see any "detailed studies" since they will not allow human studies to show the real effects of steroid use compared to not using steroids.


And they are still questioning it today in the more current articles. If not, post something that says otherwise and I'll take a gander.

Has the human arm changed since 2005? That is what all articles are based on. About 97% of velocity that comes from the arm you are born with with the other 3% coming from training and technique. That is why Dwight Evans throwing arm made Jim Rice's look like a noodle in comparison and why a skinny feller like Pedro Martinez has more velocity then Frank Thomas.


Yes, they don't allow human testing but most hearsay and medical articles state no or little velocity gain. I would like you to show just one scientific article that says strength is a factor in throwing a 5 oz baseball. Strength will never be a factor in throwing a ball. It's flexibility and arc, strength if anything will shorten the arc and decrease the velocity. Strength will help endurance but not velocity itself if you believe the science articles instead of assumption.

[Skin & Bones]

That muscle mass would help a hitter more then a pitcher.

Increases bat speed.

Swinging a bat is more of a natural motion then pitching.


It's in the links I posted.

I read the articles you posted, there's really no evidence or "study" that proves it to be true.

And I'm not sure why you believe all steroids are used for the sole purpose of gaining massive amounts of strength.

[Skin & Bones]

And they are still questioning it today in the more current articles. If not, post something that says otherwise and I'll take a gander.

Of-course they are still questioning it, I don't see how that helps your case.





Yes, they don't allow human testing but most hearsay and medical articles state no or little velocity gain. I would like you to show just one scientific article that says strength is a factor in throwing a 5 oz baseball. Strength will never be a factor in throwing a ball. It's flexibility and arc, strength if anything will shorten the arc and decrease the velocity. Strength will help endurance but not velocity itself if you believe the science articles instead of assumption.

Ben Johnson anyone? Steroids can help pitchers bulk up in the legs to get the footing and power. Do you think everyone is looking to use steroids for a vast increased in muscle mass?

For what it's worth, here's one guy who seems to believe steroids help both. He argues that they help HR hitters more, though admits his study on pitchers was less extensive.

Tobin applied a similar, though less extensive, mechanical analysis to pitching and found that smaller impacts were possible. He calculated that a 10 percent increase in muscle mass should increase the speed of a thrown ball by about 5 percent, or four to five miles per hours for a pitcher with a 90 mile per hour fastball. That translates to a reduction in earned run average of about 0.5 runs per game.

"That is enough to have a meaningful effect on the success of a pitcher, but it is not nearly as dramatic as the effects on home run production," says Tobin. "The unusual sensitivity of home run production to bat speed results in much more dramatic effects, and focuses attention disproportionately on the hitters."

http://www.scienceblog.com/cms/batters-may-achieve-dramatic-increases-home-runs-through-steroids-14282.html

Take it for what you will. The type of study Tobin did is the best you will find. Because human testing isn't allowed, you'll never know the true impacts it has unless the players, or pitchers, confess to it, and detail how it helped them. In both cases with position players and pitchers, we have that.

[Old Sweater]

I read the articles you posted, there's really no evidence or "study" that proves it to be true.

And I'm not sure why you believe all steroids are used for the sole purpose of gaining massive amounts of strength.

I don't believe that all steroids are used for massive muscle, that is just some more of your self assumption like the assumed velocity increase for pitchers without nothing but hearsay. Havn't I mentioned Winny and Deca a few times?

At least you aren't making claims of 10mph velocity increase like you use to believe. I think it was you? Last time you also used Paxton Crawford and wouldn't post no articles stating that strength was a factor in throwing the ball. Winny and Deca just mostly shows that a pitchers arm will blow and you would have to be a idiot to stack them.

Like I keep saying, this poll is for the average velocity increase for all the pitchers that use PED's..........do you actually think that even 3mph or %mph is the average? I think that most pitchers use HGH for recovery and is not a factor at all in velocity.

[Skin & Bones]

I don't believe that all steroids are used for massive muscle, that is just some more of your self assumption like the assumed velocity increase for pitchers without nothing but hearsay. Havn't I mentioned Winny and Deca a few times?

At least you aren't making claims of 10mph velocity increase like you use to believe. I think it was you? Last time you also used Paxton Crawford and wouldn't post no articles stating that strength was a factor in throwing the ball. Winny and Deca just mostly shows that a pitchers arm will blow and you would have to be a idiot to stack them.

Like I keep saying, this poll is for the average velocity increase for all the pitchers that use PED's..........do you actually think that even 3mph or %mph is the average? I think that most pitchers use HGH for recovery and is not a factor at all in velocity.


I have never said it can help a pitcher increase his velocity 10mph. If anyone has said that, it was because of Dan Naulty's confession.

And yes, I think 3-5mph can be the average for a pitcher who's using steroids "properly". Tom House was clearly irresponsible with his use. He is similar to Canseco who thanks to steroid abuse spent more time on the DL than on the field.

Anyway, I'm going to sleep. But before I log off, here's a link to an article where steroid expect Charles Yesalis argues that Steroids help hitters, and then at the very end argues they help pitchers as well: Yesalis adds steroids also can help a top-level pitcher.

"With a few exceptions," he says, "almost every pitch is improved with more power."

Here's the link to the article (written back in 2005):http://www.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/2005-02-23-scholars-steroids_x.htm

Have a good night Old Sweater.

[Old Sweater]

Of-course they are still questioning it, I don't see how that helps your case.

Same here when you brought it up. The human arm won't change.





Ben Johnson anyone? Steroids can help pitchers bulk up in the legs to get the footing and power. Do you think everyone is looking to use steroids for a vast increased in muscle mass?

For what it's worth, here's one guy who seems to believe steroids help both. He argues that they help HR hitters more, though admits his study on pitchers was less extensive.

I've been thru this with you before to. Steroids do not help the arm itself



http://www.scienceblog.com/cms/batters-may-achieve-dramatic-increases-home-runs-through-steroids-14282.html

Take it for what you will. The type of study Tobin did is the best you will find. Because human testing isn't allowed, you'll never know the true impacts it has unless the players, or pitchers, confess to it, and detail how it helped them. In both cases with position players and pitchers, we have that.

No Tobin is the best you can find for a far fetched reach. Even the two mediocre pitchers you use don't claim such a gain in velocity. It's 3mph hearsay by them and Tobin study is a joke. If you believed in this article there would be a vote for 10mph in the poll like you use to believe. I have at least 10 articles that say different so I have you outgunned in the research department.

[Old Sweater]

I read the articles you posted, there's really no evidence or "study" that proves it to be true.



Here is what I believe that I have read in many articles.

A juiced-up hitter still has to apply his other skills to take advantage of the additional strength. But for pitchers, the link between enhancers and on-field performance is more direct: Whether you work out hard or not, you'll almost certainly feel more capable the next day. Hitters use steroids and human growth hormone to build a more powerful weapon: their swing. Pitchers use the stuff to reload-rearm, in fact-the weapon they already have. Days of recovery are squeezed into hours.
There are risks, no doubt. Doctors warn that performance-enhancing drugs can wither ligaments and tendons. Anecdotally, there seems to have been a spike in elbow ligament reconstruction surgeries, from high school to the major leagues. And nobody fully knows the long-term health ramifications for the users. "There are significant ill effects that scare me," says Dr. Timothy Kremchek, the Reds' medical director and an orthopedic surgeon whose attention is increasingly coveted by injured players




What I have in bold is in many articles but I won't post no more on this subject with you because you continue to support your stand based on just 1 far fetched claim by Tobin and a couple of pitchers who admitted who had very short careers. For every claim you post I could put up 10 that says otherwise but you will never believe them. At least you are down from 10mph that you use to claim. Also the other posters will see more articles and surveys, hearsay then you have been able to produce and some will realize how far fetched it is for average gain in velocity to be even 1mph using PED's.

You go ahead and believe your 2 pitchers and 1 article. Even your one article says PED's helps hitter more but you still wanted me to post another one saying the same thing. It's in about 10 if you google "steroids and pitchers" they compare the two, hitters and pitchers.

[Skin & Bones]

Here is what I believe that I have read in many articles.




What I have in bold is in many articles but I won't post no more on this subject with you because you continue to support your stand based on just 1 far fetched claim by Tobin and a couple of pitchers who admitted who had very short careers. For every claim you post I could put up 10 that says otherwise but you will never believe them. At least you are down from 10mph that you use to claim. Also the other posters will see more articles and surveys, hearsay then you have been able to produce and some will realize how far fetched it is for average gain in velocity to be even 1mph using PED's.

You go ahead and believe your 2 pitchers and 1 article. Even your one article says PED's helps hitter more but you still wanted me to post another one saying the same thing. It's in about 10 if you google "steroids and pitchers" they compare the two, hitters and pitchers.

From one of the articles you posted (The Buster Olney one): By the late '90s, about 15 years after Hershiser learned to work out with the two-pound weights, an increasing number of pitchers were arriving at spring training looking like Jose Canseco. One veteran hurler cut off the sleeves of his undershirt to show off his new biceps, which some former teammates believe came from steroid use. "Don't be so obvious about it," a coach told the pitcher.

The longtime scout, the one who caught on early, jotted notes about the sudden potency of middle relievers. "Little guys who had been clocked with fastballs at 87, 88 mph were throwing 92, 93," he says. "You might see them two or three days in a row, and they'd maintain their velocity. There was no drop-off."


And Curt Schilling: Schilling said pitchers take steroids, too. He knows pitchers who threw 91 mph one year and then showed up the next season throwing 95-96 mph after using steroids.

http://espn.go.com/talent/danpatrick/s/2002/0531/1389144.html


And correction, there's three 3 pitchers (Naulty, Grimsley, and Crawford), who used and saw an improvement in their velocity.

[Old Sweater]

From one of the articles you posted (The Buster Olney one):

And Curt Schilling:

http://espn.go.com/talent/danpatrick/s/2002/0531/1389144.html


And correction, there's three 3 pitchers (Naulty, Grimsley, and Crawford), who used and saw an improvement in their velocity.


Jason Grimsley admitted PED use throughout his career, so you can contribute velocity decrease also. Once again, you only believe the years where his velocity was better, and not the years he was a below average reliever with a average fastball. So really you have one Tobin research article, that states a far fetched 10mph velocity increase(using muscle mass LOL/not possible) and 2 pitchers who had a combined 220 innings pitched, with a claim of 3mph by Crawford. I don't know what Nautly's hearsay velocity increase was.

Jason Grimsley June 2006
Admitted Using: Steroids (Deca-Durabolin), Prohormones (1-AD), Human Growth Hormone
What he said: In an IRS affidavit, Grimsley says he used steroids throughout his 15 year career, but had used only hGH since MLB instituted its drug testing program in 2004. Grimsley named other players who were users though the names were redacted. David Segui later admitted to being one of the redacted names. Grimsley’s admission was released in an affidavit of IRS agent Jeff Novitzky.

From one of the articles you posted (The Buster Olney one):

Yes, some of the links I posted have some hearsay of velocity increase, but by far, most of them say the opposite which you never believe. Doesn't the majority of the articles mean anything to you? Like the majority of articles that say pitchers use PED's for recovery only instead of the few that say the opposite. You look at most of the articles with a closed mind, and refuse to believe what most of them say. Only the one's that support what you want to believe and not the others. I believe most of the articles and hearsay that say the opposite.


Pitchers use light weights to build up endurance, not velocity like Oral Hershiser said. Build up the arm with to much with muscle and you lose flexibility, that is a must for velocity.

Curt Schilling despises PED pitchers so much, he would exaggerate velocity increase to prove his point. He probably believes the Tobin research, with muscle mass, giving a pitcher a 10mph increase.

I still believe it was you that made a claim of a 10mph velocity increase about a year ago but couldn't find nothing to back it up. If it wasn't you it was another poster that kept using Paxton Crawfords assumed 3mph as one of his sources.

I am glad that Paxton Crawford admitted use of winny and deca, with a claim of a 3mph velocity increase. That 60 innings pitched with average stats, shows what winny and deca really does for a pitcher. The velocity increase is hearsay and the injury(back and shoulder) is a fact. Same for Nautly with his 160 inning pitched career. This is just another reason for me to believe that pitchers use PED's for recovery only that helps reload the arm faster.

[MyDogSparty]

Goose egg. I would go as far as 1mph to grow on at the most.

I figured you voted for zero. Here's my problem with that. You continually ask for scientific/medical articles from those that said PEDs improve velocity by 5MPH or more. Then you state that these articles claim only up to a 3% increase, max. Given that you voted ZERO, you don't really don't believe ANY research at all, let alone players who actually have used the stuff and have experienced the benefits first hand. According to you, research be damned, right? So why ask for it? Why waste anyone's time if you're not going to believe it anyway?

I believe PEDs can benefit velocity if used in the right manner much like the one described by Brett, to stregthen the core and the legs. I believe that this is how Naulty saw such huge improvements.

Even though this thread asks about the improvement in a pitcher's velocity, it reeks of implying that there is no benefit to pitchers who use PEDs. Even if (and I don't think it's true that) velocity isn't effected there IS an advantage to pitchers using PEDs. The fact that pitchers can recover faster in between starts and over the duration of the season and the fact that the deviation of their velocity is more consistent over the course of a game and season that would be a advantage vs other pitchers who see declines in those areas of the game because they're not using PEDs. And it's a advantage over hitters not using PEDs over the course of a season who are also dealing with fatigue or who would otherwise get to face more tired pitchers later in games and during the season. Velocity may be a "red herring" for other benefits that a pitcher sees.

Bottom line is they were illegal to use without a perscription and those that used them, even if it more than 50% of the league, had an unfair advantage over those that chose NOT to break the law. It doesn't really matter if the advantage was large or small, physical or mental, it was against the law and baseball rules are NOT above the law.

[Old Sweater]

I figured you voted for zero. Here's my problem with that. You continually ask for scientific/medical articles from those that said PEDs improve velocity by 5MPH or more. Then you state that these articles claim only up to a 3% increase, max. Given that you voted ZERO, you don't really don't believe ANY research at all, let alone players who actually have used the stuff and have experienced the benefits first hand. According to you, research be damned, right? So why ask for it? Why waste anyone's time if you're not going to believe it anyway?



This poll was for the average of all pitchers. Most of the articles I have read with links posted said little or no gain. The poll was also for a increase in velocity, not for endurance. There may be more bullets in the magazine but they are going the same speed and not at a increased velocity. A shot of cortisone is going to enable a pitcher to make a start instead of sitting on the bench but it will not increase their velocity. Same go's for a pitcher who uses PED's for recovery only.

Your assumption of all pitchers that gain 3-5mph velocity gain for all the pitchers is based on the word of one pitcher(Nautly) for all the pitchers have used PED's. Why waste your time based on the word of one pitcher when many articles and other pitchers and players say different? What about Tom House who said he gained 30 lbs and recovered faster but gained no velocity? What about Grimsley who used PED's his whole career and others just giving him credit for velocity gain but throw velocity decrease for the other years out the window?

If the majority of articles stated that a pitcher gained 1 or 2mph velocity I would have voted 1 or 2. I'm not going to take the word of 1 pitcher who had a short career caused by steroid use. You say that you believe that a pitcher can gain velocity if used properly but use Nautly who didn't use them properly. Whats up with that and what majority of pitchers are going to use winny or deca if they shorten their careers?

Grimsley is the only pitcher who admitted PED use, who actually had a career. Grimsley had a 15 year career with a career ERA .16 below league average. Where is the performance enhansing? The extra recovery gave him a career but just a below average one.

According to you, research be damned, right? So why ask for it? Why waste any one's time if you're not going to believe it anyway?


Down Sparky, down boy. This poll wasn't to change my opinion. It was for the average velocity increase for all the pitchers who used PED's for the posters to vote on.

You and Skin & Bones are the only one's who have wasted time trying to change my opionion that is based on the majority of articles I have read vs a total of 3 pitchers and a few articles that state different. If you're going to base anything on hearsay you have to go with the majority of it. You are the one who don't believe most of what you have read, unless you stopped reading after one Nautly article.

Here is a link about hitters. I don't believe some of it because I know players use PED's for some reason, but they have some research and charts that say different. If you have the time, take a gander at it.

http://steroids-and-baseball.com/

[cardsfanatic]

So I guess Naulty and Crawford were confused?

So, I guess Roger Clemens never roided? Works both ways, amigo.

[cardsfanatic]

I went with zero. I'm 6'7", 265lbs played collegiate baseball (first base) and have worked out since I was 14 years old. I throw a baseball a whopping 62 mph. I'm pretty f'n convinced that size NOR strengh have a dang thing to do with how hard you throw a baseball. In my experience, long bodied and linky pitchers always throw far harder than big guys. Now, if you want to tell me that size and strength affect homeruns? I'll buy that. As I know it's true first hand.

[BoweryBoys]

I went with zero. I'm 6'7", 265lbs played collegiate baseball (first base) and have worked out since I was 14 years old. I throw a baseball a whopping 62 mph. I'm pretty f'n convinced that size NOR strengh have a dang thing to do with how hard you throw a baseball. In my experience, long bodied and linky pitchers always throw far harder than big guys. Now, if you want to tell me that size and strength affect homeruns? I'll buy that. As I know it's true first hand.

I knew we could agree on something besides just being Cardinals fans. Good luck on your baseball career. Hopefully all PED use will be cleaned out of the game if/when you make the majors, if that is your goal. Then you will not have to worry about being tainted along with the cheats and shortcutters.

[fenrir]

I went with zero. I'm 6'7", 265lbs played collegiate baseball (first base) and have worked out since I was 14 years old. I throw a baseball a whopping 62 mph. I'm pretty f'n convinced that size NOR strengh have a dang thing to do with how hard you throw a baseball. In my experience, long bodied and linky pitchers always throw far harder than big guys. Now, if you want to tell me that size and strength affect homeruns? I'll buy that. As I know it's true first hand.

you dont have the talent clemens has. take a great power pitcher like clemens, give him steroids and hgh, and the results are amazing. no comparison.

[Skin & Bones]

Grimsley is the only pitcher who admitted PED use, who actually had a career. Grimsley had a 15 year career with a career ERA .16 below league average. Where is the performance enhansing? The extra recovery gave him a career but just a below average one.

This is false. Grimsley admitted to using steroids starting in 1999. Prior to 1999 (his career through 1996), Grimsley boasted a career 81 ERA+. He was clearly far below average. When he started on steroids his ERA+ from 1999-2006 was 112. The "performance enhancement" as you call it can't be any more clear than that.

[Skin & Bones]

So, I guess Roger Clemens never roided? Works both ways, amigo.

I'm not sure what Roger Clemens has to do with Naulty and Crawford.

[cardsfanatic]

I knew we could agree on something besides just being Cardinals fans. Good luck on your baseball career. Hopefully all PED use will be cleaned out of the game if/when you make the majors, if that is your goal. Then you will not have to worry about being tainted along with the cheats and shortcutters.

That ship has sailed, sadly. I'm 27 and graduated college five years ago in May. :)

[cardsfanatic]

you dont have the talent clemens has. take a great power pitcher like clemens, give him steroids and hgh, and the results are amazing. no comparison.

LOL, ok. If size and strenght = mph on a radar gun then why do I throw a baseball slower than some 10 year olds? I throw no harder today than I did in little league, honestly. Now, with proper pitching mechanics I'm sure I could up my MPH but size nor strength seem to be the answer. I don't care what your talent level is. Clemens threw a blazing fast fastball as a skinny kid at a Texas HS. That's just how he rolled. His fastball was never any faster than it was in 1986 as a beanpole.

[cardsfanatic]

I'm not sure what Roger Clemens has to do with Naulty and Crawford.

If you say Naulty and Crawford saying they improved their mph with use of sterioids is absolute proof that steroids = MPH and Clemens never saw any such MPH gains, then he obviously didn't use steroids then???

Now, I'm sure this is another double standard as the steroid crowd loves those. However, seems to me that if you suggest one thing as an _absolute_ then by proxy, the opposite must be true. Like those nifty questions on the SAT that test your logic and reasoning.

[Skin & Bones]

If you say Naulty and Crawford saying they improved their mph with use of sterioids is absolute proof that steroids = MPH and Clemens never saw any such MPH gains, then he obviously didn't use steroids then???

Now, I'm sure this is another double standard as the steroid crowd loves those. However, seems to me that if you suggest one thing as an _absolute_ then by proxy, the opposite must be true. Like those nifty questions on the SAT that test your logic and reasoning.

Clemens has nothing to do with Naulty and Crawford. I don't know when Clemens used steroids, or if he did (though I believe he used them), so I can't speculate on whether or not his velocity "increased". The arguement you are putting forth has no merit, because we don't have enough detailed information on Clemens as we do with Crawford and Naulty, who have detailed their own use and how the drugs benefited them.

[Old Sweater]

Clemens has nothing to do with Naulty and Crawford. I don't know when Clemens used steroids, or if he did (though I believe he used them), so I can't speculate on whether or not his velocity "increased". The argument you are putting forth has no merit, because we don't have enough detailed information on Clemens as we do with Crawford and Naulty, who have detailed their own use and how the drugs benefited them.


Once again, this thread is not about if Clemens used PED's or not. Clemens never had velocity problems to start with.

Dan Naulty

, I was throwing well. So well, that my total long shot of making the team was diminishing and things were looking up. My fastball had increased from 86 mph to 95 mph in just three short years. I left college (Cal State-Fullerton) at 185 pounds and entered the 1996 season at 240 pounds. I had cheated my way right onto the team that year by using steroids, human growth hormone and amphetamines.


All I had done had paid off, but at what cost? Little did I know that my insides were deteriorating and before long I was going to pay for the physical consequences of using these drugs.


For the next three injury-plagued years, I pitched for the Twins, until 1999 when I was traded to the Yankees. I had just come off my most serious injury because I had put too much muscle on tendons not equipped for the demand. I tore the major tendon in my groin off my pelvis. After that injury came my next brilliant decision - using HGH. More needles,



http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/yankees/2007/12/23/2007-12-23_reliever_dan_naulty_from_1999_world_seri-2.html?page=2

Skin & Bones

we don't have enough detailed information on Clemens as we do with Crawford and Naulty, who have detailed their own use and how the drugs benefited them.


What you are calling detailed information from Naulty and Crawford is hearsay without no speed gun proof. Nautly claims 9mph from PED use in 3 years. At least 3mph can come with age/training&technique&mechanics/ in the pro years. Naulty also claimed that he didn't know what the PED's were doing to his body after having 3 injury plagued years. Crawford made a claim of 3mph but also made a claim of falling out of bed on top of a glass. You claim that Tom House that used only steroids didn't know what he was doing but he was Einstein compared to these guys. At least House had a career to speak of as did Jason Grimsley who used through out his MLB career, so it is hard to guess which year he had a velocity increase or decrease from PED's.

Dan Naulty/steroids/HGH/amphetamines/claimed 9mph/ I'll give him a far fetched 7mph
Paxton Crawford/steroids/HGH/claimed 3mph/used the same 2 PED's as Naulty???
Tom House/HGH/ claimed 0mph/knew what he was doing more then Naulty&Crawford because he actually had a career
Jason Grimsley/steroids/HGH/amphetamines/claimed 5mph

So out of 4 pitchers who has admitted PED use the average of these 4 is 3.75mph velocity increase for the average.

Throw in John Rocker who didn't have velocity problems but still give him 3mph and you have 3.6mph for the average.

Add Paul Byrd/HGH/ who is more or less a soft tosser and give him 2mph to be kind and you have 2.85mph velocity increase for the average.

Then consider more pitchers use HGH & anti flammatory steroids(recovery) then anabolic steroids if they want a career that isn't shortened by injury and that average would probably be 1mph for average velocity increase at the best. Not all pitchers are as dumb as Naulty and Crawford.

As I said this poll is for the average of all MLB pitchers on velocity gain and even by giving a generous 7mph to Naulty and 5mph to Grimsley, I just don't understand why there is 8 votes for 5mph for average velocity increase??? At least the posters at the start of the thread gave a reason why they voted for 0mph and 2 of the 8 that voted for 5mph(S&B/Sparky) are only going by 2 pitchers claims, that seem to be a little bit on the fibber side.(Naulty not knowing that PED's was hurting him after 3 injury plagued seasons/Crawford falling on a glass) and throwing what House said out the window on the basics that he didn't know what he was doing. If you are going by hearsy of a pitcher, go by all the pitcher hearsay. If you are going hearsay of articles(medical/players/coaches) go by the majority of what they say. Just don't cherry pick the one's that claim the higher velocity increase.