Glove Side Arm

[RIstar]

Hey I have a new video but I'm wondering what I should do about my glove side arm. It seems to be good then it flops to the side and never really tightens like Mariano Rivera and such right at the side of them.

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/49/192349199_f0f71e6948.jpg?v=0

or

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/191/485818502_a214c4974e.jpg?v=0

or

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/177/485826486_a78cf40ac0.jpg?v=0

or

http://cache.viewimages.com/xc/275714.jpg?v=1&c=ViewImages&k=2&d=17A4AD9FDB9CF1934A2752006EF5F0ED71D230407655182F 284831B75F48EF45

or

http://news.bbc.co.uk/media/images/39265000/jpg/_39265079_greg_maddux_247.jpg
It looks like the power would be transfered better right to the ball if you pull the glove in like that tight. I'm not to sure but should I change the way I pull the glove in to get more energy to the ball?

RIstar Pitching


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=27dFtK7X4Gc


Should I change this before the season?

[Drill]

My son has had pitching lessons and catcher lessons. Even in a catcher throw down they want you to tuck your glove in to the point of aiming your front elbow at your target. Plus as I remember it helps with balance accuracy and weight exchange form front should to throwing shoulder. I even heard it describe one time as it's like playing tug of war, pulling your front side back. I don't think the instructor meant it as a training action, but more as a visualization.


Everybody has there own theory/way of teaching, but that is what I have heard the most,


drill

[Drill]

sorry double post

[jima]

RI...my kid is taught to keep the glove side arm out to the target and move the chest to the glove...not pull the glove in. Its not easy to do..since you have to use your whole body. Some pitchers who "pull" their glove in will tend to open up their lead shoulder too soon and "spin out". My son's coach wants him to feel as though his chest moves to the glove and then throws over it (the glove) in a more "over the top" or "downhill" straight line. If he does it right, the glove does end up tucked near the chest. He tries to do this when he does long toss also. One thing to remember though is that my son used to have kind of a jerky; left shoulder open motion...he tried to use only his shoulder and arm to produce velocity. His coach recognized that and has has smoothed out his delivery and allowed him to better incorporate his legs and core. H.S. try outs on Monday. Good luck to you. jima

[dm59]

Your glove side's fine. As you know, I don't like your throwing arm action but you've already said that what I've told you was "bad advice" on that issue.

[Chris O'Leary]

As you know, I don't like your throwing arm action but you've already said that what I've told you was "bad advice" on that issue.

DM, he may have the biggest timing problem I've ever seen.

[dm59]

Maybe so. He's also got the biggest shortarming problem I've ever seen but he doesn't want to hear about any of that.

[jima]

DM, he may have the biggest timing problem I've ever seen.

Chris, could that be from all the unnecessary motion in the delivery...the side step and back to the plate, etc.?

DM - the short arming could come from the fact that the target looks like its about 15' away.

[Chris O'Leary]

Chris, could that be from all the unnecessary motion in the delivery...the side step and back to the plate, etc.?

DM - the short arming could come from the fact that the target looks like its about 15' away.

I think what I'm calling a timing problem, DM is describing as short-arming.

It's really the same basic thing.

The excessive reverse-rotation of the shoulders is part of the problem. A bigger problem is the Inverted L to Inverted W in his arm action.

http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Pitching/Images/Examples/Example_InvertedL_CliffPolitte_001.jpg

It's hard to get the PAS forearm up in time when you start out with the forearm hanging down vertically like that.

This clip of BJ Ryan shows the same basic problem.

http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Pitching/Videos/Video_Pitching_BJRyan_CF_Fastball_001.gif

Notice how BJ Ryan's forearm is nearly vertical (pointing down) at the moment his shoulders start to rotate (in Frame 22).

[jima]

I think what I'm calling a timing problem, DM is describing as short-arming.

It's really the same basic thing.

The excessive reverse-rotation of the shoulders is part of the problem. A bigger problem is the Inverted L to Inverted W in his arm action.

http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Pitching/Images/Examples/Example_InvertedL_CliffPolitte_001.jpg

It's hard to get the PAS forearm up in time when you start out with the forearm hanging down vertically like that.

This clip of BJ Ryan shows the same basic problem.

http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Pitching/Videos/Video_Pitching_BJRyan_CF_Fastball_001.gif

Notice how BJ Ryan's forearm is nearly vertical (pointing down) at the moment his shoulders start to rotate.

yeah, "reverse rotation" that's what I meant by "back to the plate" ala Luis Tiant. Doesn't Maddux have his arm down? maybe not vertical, but down.

[Chris O'Leary]

Doesn't Maddux have his arm down? maybe not vertical, but down.

No.

Maddux's timing is excellent, as you would expect.

His PAS forearm is nearly vertical (upwards) at the moment his shoulders start rotating.

[jima]

Chris, sorry, what you mean by reverse rotation then is "scap loading" right? Much of that reverse rotation is due to him turning his back to home plate. So what do you mean by bad timing?...short arming, can be but generally speaking, is not a timing issue. What I was trying to say is that he has a lot of motion that does not help him pitch the ball and can only get in the way of good timing.

[Chris O'Leary]

Chris, sorry, what you mean by reverse rotation then is "scap loading" right? Much of that reverse rotation is due to him turning his back to home plate. So what do you mean by bad timing?...short arming, can be but generally speaking, is not a timing issue. What I was trying to say is that he has a lot of motion that does not help him pitch the ball and can only get in the way of good timing.

First, I don't think short-arming (defined as having the PAS elbow bent less than 90 degrees at the high-cocked position) is actually a problem and might even be good. I say that because Maddux and Clemens do it.

http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Pitching/Images/Pitchers/GregMaddux_001.jpg

http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Pitching/Images/Pitchers/RogerClemens_2000_001.jpg

Second, by bad timing I mean that the PAS forearm is not vertical and facing upwards (as it should be) at the moment the shoulders start to turn. In many cases, bad timing (ala Chris Carpenter) means the PAS forearm is horizontal at the moment the shoulders start turning. BJ Ryan happens to have terrible timing.

Third, scap loading is different than reverse rotation. Maddux scap loads...

http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Pitching/Images/Examples/Example_ScapularLoading_Good_GregMaddux_199X_012.j pg

...but he doesn't reverse-rotate his shoulders (much). Maddux's shoulders point to the 3B side of the plate during his arm swing.

[RIstar]

Do you see a problem with my arm action with my momentum pitching mechanics?

My arm gets up at the center line.

Chris could you please take a look?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dq4qYkGceuw

and also a picture that shows at the center line my arm is up.

http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t44/RocketClems22/momentumpitching001_0001.jpg

[Chris O'Leary]

Do you see a problem with my arm action with my momentum pitching mechanics?

My arm gets up at the center line.

Chris could you please take a look?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dq4qYkGceuw

Your timing is really inconsistent.

It's OK in the first pitch and pretty bad in the second pitch.

[palo20]

Do you see a problem with my arm action with my momentum pitching mechanics?

My arm gets up at the center line.

Chris could you please take a look?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dq4qYkGceuw

and also a picture that shows at the center line my arm is up.

http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t44/RocketClems22/momentumpitching001_0001.jpg


Could you define the center line?

Is that picture of right when you land?

[palo20]

Maybe so. He's also got the biggest shortarming problem I've ever seen but he doesn't want to hear about any of that.

Yup, I'd be more concerned with the Arm side arm.

[Deemax]

Frozen moments in time do not dictate good and poor arm actions, and more importantly these stills have nothing to do with short arming IMO. Pitching terminology is being butchered in baseball forums.... It keeps changing, and its confusing.
http://www.mlb.com/images/2004/04/24/lFUVsIDj.jpg
http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t33/deemax32/mark20prior20cubs.jpg
Ristar, you are not a shortarmer IMO. I think your arm works well, and I really liked your delivery on your first tapes. You dont need to change your arm action. In addition you dont need to copy Lincecum (you already had a hint of him anyway), momentum pitching, or guru advice. Keep pitching and developing with YOUR delivery. The more you continue to make big changes in your delivery the more difficult it is to repeat.

[RIstar]

I fully understand and till fooling around with Momentum Pitching yesterday I was going to keep my reg wind-up BUT I increased my mph by alot with momentum pitching. I throw harder doing it and my arm whips more and my arm speed has gone off the charts like nothing else.

I feel Momentum pitching gives me the best MPH and dynamic balance down the mound. Also hitters will not like this wind-up and my off-speed will be killer.

Shouldn't I go with what I throw harder with?

I also struggle really bad with Traditional pitching and keeping the same movement and balance everytime. With Momentum Pitching it's simple as can be just step back and move forward and while you do that reverse rotate the upper body to the center line so you can stay closed and throw.

What do you think?

[palo20]

Do you have numbers to prove that you throw harder? Or did the ball just hit the tarp a little harder?

[RIstar]

I do not have numbers yet but you can see that my arm speed is alot faster and I can feel like I'm throwing harder.

I will try to get gunned as soon as the snow and stuff goes away. I know I'm throwing harder now then before.

[palo20]

Your transformation as a pitcher is quite entertaining.

[fastbal95]

RIstar,

Equal and opposite. Your glove arm should be pulled straight back. The harder, faster, you pull your glove arm straight back, the faster you pitching side arm will come forward. The faster you rotate the faster you will throw.

The Martial Arts have been using Newton's Third Law for thousands of years. When you punch, you pull your opposite arm back as fast as you can. This causes faster rotation of your shoulders and allows your punching (pitching) arm to move faster.

With that being said, its not an easy thing to do when youve done something else for years. Work at it hard and you should be able to pick it up. It will help you.

[RIstar]

Thank you I guess lol

All I know is Momentum Pitching works if the timing is there. You will throw harder then traditional slow and controlled mechanics. The thing people misunderstand is Momentum Pitching is not about rushing down the mound. You need to be in control at all times but you want to go at a good fast tempo like you would throw from the OF.

[Go Cardinals]

Your transformation as a pitcher is quite entertaining.

Most people can tell if they are throwing harder...

I find more entertaining the non-experts offering ridiculous advice (palo, not at you).

[RIstar]

Yes I can feel my body and arm throwing the ball harder. You can tell how the ball comes out of the hand and also how quickly you are able to rotate and explode.

When you go from 75 tops and then that is all you can get and it feels good, then your arm goes even faster you feel it trust me.

[Chris O'Leary]

The harder, faster, you pull your glove arm straight back, the faster you pitching side arm will come forward. The faster you rotate the faster you will throw.

I have come to believe that this is bad advice because it can throw the hips and shoulders out of sync.

You want the large muscles of the hips and core to pull the shoulders around (e.g. bottom-up). If you try to generate power by pulling the arm in, you can get the shoulders ahead of the hips, which will make you much less efficient (e.g. top-down).

I'm not a fan of much of Tom House's work, but I think there might be some merit to the idea of bringing the body to the glove.

[palo20]

Well I don't care what kind of mechanics you use, changing them on an almost daily basis will not make you better.

And throwing that many pitches 6 times a week is probably too much. Just because you don't feel it now doesn't mean that it's safe. Arm problems don't happen overnight.

[palo20]

Most people can tell if they are throwing harder...

I find more entertaining the non-experts offering ridiculous advice (palo, not at you).

Yeah, I know what it feels like. But I've felt like I'm throwing hard and I'm not, and other days just the opposite. The numbers tell the story and better yet the hitter will tell you how hard you're throwing.

[fastbal95]

Well Chris,

You have come to believe this as bad advice, YET all of the Martial Arts have been using it for thousands of years. And they still teach it today. It works. Its backed by actual science.

There is no merit to bringing the body closer to the arm. You want to stay tall, not bend over.

[RIstar]

Well palo you are the normal minded thinker but you have missed something. Pitching 6x's a week is ok if you throw 70% max mph and very few at max mph. Also if you can't throw 6x's a week you are simple weak and should not pitch.

I have keep the same mechanics for 2 mounths till yesterday when I tryed momentum pitching.

[Go Cardinals]

Well I don't care what kind of mechanics you use, changing them on an almost daily basis will not make you better.

And throwing that many pitches 6 times a week is probably too much. Just because you don't feel it now doesn't mean that it's safe. Arm problems don't happen overnight.

I agree w/ the 2nd part; however, I disagree on the second. I haven't seen him change anything big in his mechanics. You learn from trial and error. You try small adjustments and see how they work. That's all he's done.

Now your second point is what I was going to say... I just couldn't think how to say it.

[Go Cardinals]

Well palo you are the normal minded thinker but you have missed something. Pitching 6x's a week is ok if you throw 70% max mph and very few at max mph. Also if you can't throw 6x's a week you are simple weak and should not pitch.

I have keep the same mechanics for 2 mounths till yesterday when I tryed momentum pitching.

Ristar... it's not worth it... you make any slight difference and people on this board will accuse you of changing sooooo much. You know what is correct, and that's what counts. I doubt he's even seen all of your videos.

As long as you build up to pitching that much, and as long as you listen to your arm and take breaks when needed, you should be fine.

[Go Cardinals]

Yeah, I know what it feels like. But I've felt like I'm throwing hard and I'm not, and other days just the opposite. The numbers tell the story and better yet the hitter will tell you how hard you're throwing.

All he said is his arm felt better and faster (ok, he went a little over board).

Anyway, you are correct. The numbers tell the truth. However, MPH is not the most important part of pitching... a lot of youth pitchers and coaches focus too much on it. Lets just wait until he starts his season... can't assume on those things.

[palo20]

Well palo you are the normal minded thinker but you have missed something. Pitching 6x's a week is ok if you throw 70% max mph and very few at max mph. Also if you can't throw 6x's a week you are simple weak and should not pitch.

I have keep the same mechanics for 2 mounths till yesterday when I tryed momentum pitching.

Right, I need to start thinking outside the box. Where did you come up with these numbers: 6 times a week at 70%? Has it been from your years of experience pitching and experimenting with what works best for you, or did you read it somewhere and it sounded good? What if I throw 3 times a week at 90-100%, am I cheating myself according to your tried and true method?

You've kept the same mechanics for 2 months? Is that supposed to be good?

[palo20]

Ristar... it's not worth it... you make any slight difference and people on this board will accuse you of changing sooooo much. You know what is correct, and that's what counts. I doubt he's even seen all of your videos.

As long as you build up to pitching that much, and as long as you listen to your arm and take breaks when needed, you should be fine.

I've seen RI's transformation as a pitcher for a couple of years now. He went from loving Mills, to hating on his momentum stuff, then he started throwing like Lincecum, then it was Will Carroll's pillars of pitching, then Steven Ellis's stuff was bad, then it was good, and now we're back to Mills (not necessarily in that order).

I'm all for improving, but there's a fine line between tweaks and overhauls.

[RIstar]

My 6x's a week pitching is a program created by Dusty Delso and his son is 15 years old throws 84 mph and has not had a sore arm in 4 years.

[RIstar]

Mills has 2 programs remember that. Explosive Pitching and Momentum Pitching.

[palo20]

My 6x's a week pitching is a program created by Dusty Delso and his son is 15 years old throws 84 mph and has not had a sore arm in 4 years.


Dusty has some good stuff, and I'm a big fan of pitching off the mound. But do you think his kid just started throwing 6 times a week off the mound, or did he start at 2 and work his way up. You have to progress, you don't just jump into it.

Also, no matter how good the program may be, one 15 year old that has a healthy arm is not exactly proof that it works for everyone.

[RIstar]

Well I do build up to it with the program going from 50 pitches at 75% and adding 25 each week. I didn't just jump into throwing 100 pitches the 1st day.

[jima]

Well Chris,

You have come to believe this as bad advice, YET all of the Martial Arts have been using it for thousands of years. And they still teach it today. It works. Its backed by actual science.

There is no merit to bringing the body closer to the arm. You want to stay tall, not bend over.

Do you really believe that a pitcher's shoulders should emulate the split second punch of a martial artist? I assume you've studied martial arts so you know just how quick the movement is. Its my belief that pitching is more of a momentum gathering process starting at the bottom working up to release w/out the split second shoulder jerk that a martial artist would exhibit.

[Chris O'Leary]

Do you really believe that a pitcher's shoulders should emulate the split second punch of a martial artist? I assume you've studied martial arts so you know just how quick the movement is. Its my belief that pitching is more of a momentum gathering process starting at the bottom working up to release w/out the split second shoulder jerk that a martial artist would exhibit.

I agree.

Force coupling may work for a jab because speed (and surprise) is your main weapon.

However, when throwing a pitch you've got more time to use a more efficient approach, which means recruiting the large muscles of the core.

That's why so many pitchers use this approach.

http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Pitching/Images/Examples/Example_HipsRotatingBeforeShoulders_TimLincecum_20 07_035.jpg

It is slightly slower but much faster due to the use of much larger muscles.

[fastbal95]

You guys really have no clue.

[Go Cardinals]

You guys really have no clue.

Dude, this may be true or not... but when you say this, it then turns into 100 pages on MM discussion (which sadly get no where... I still read it all though).

[Deemax]

You guys really have no clue.

Somebody had a tough night..... lotta hate this morning Joe.

[fastbal95]

Dee,

12 hours days are killing me, lol. Damn people drink too much at my resort. lol

I just find it disturbing that someone can dismiss the concept of equal and opposite so easily. Martial Arts have shown it works for thousands of years. The concept is the same as it pertains to pitching, rotation of the shoulders and yet some cant comprehend it. Its funny that Chris says force coupling would work for a punch, but not for pitching. Like Newton's 3rd Law just doesnt apply to pitching a baseball.

For some reason, there is a perfect way to do every human action, EXCEPT for baseball pitching. Apparently there are many different ways to throw a baseball the most efficient way, because not all humans have a humerus bone, an ulna bone, etc... and they are not attached in the same places. Some people apparently have their ulna bone connected to their humerus at a different spot. I have come to learn this from many people on this site. I have really been educated.

And what does this mean???

"It is slightly slower but much faster due to the use of much larger muscles."

Its slightly slower but much faster??? Are you serious? How can something be slightly slower but then at the same time much faster?

[Chris O'Leary]

I just find it disturbing that someone can dismiss the concept of equal and opposite so easily. Martial Arts have shown it works for thousands of years. The concept is the same as it pertains to pitching, rotation of the shoulders and yet some cant comprehend it. Its funny that Chris says force coupling would work for a punch, but not for pitching. Like Newton's 3rd Law just doesnt apply to pitching a baseball.

I hold my views for two reasons.

1. I see large hip/shoulder separation ALL OVER MLB. That suggests to me that it's very efficient. I also don't see any correlation with injury rates.

2. When I see evidence of force coupling, I tend to see shoulder problems (e.g. Mark Mulder) which makes me nervous.

I also see hip/shoulder separation on lots of other sports and disciplines (e.g. golf, water polo, and hitting).

IMO, one reason why Marshall guys don't throw as hard may be because they are trying to substitute arm power for body power, and it's not an even trade-off.

[Chris O'Leary]

And what does this mean???

"It is slightly slower but much faster due to the use of much larger muscles."

Its slightly slower but much faster??? Are you serious? How can something be slightly slower but then at the same time much faster?

It takes longer to develop the force but the ultimate power output is greater.

[fastbal95]

Chris,

Thank you for explaining your comments a little better.

You see it all over the MLB. Does that make it good just because they use it. And why can you sumise that its efficient just because they use it?

How does Mulder force couple? Do you have video of it? I would love to see what you are talking about.

Im not so sure about water polo, but in reference to hitting and golfers, they want their acromial lines to be perpendicular to the path of the ball, while pitching on the other hand, one wants to have their acromial line parallel or straight on with the path of the ball.

Have you ever seen how dart throwers line up their throwing foot, hip, and shoulder all at the target, then raise their arm into a slingshot position and throw the dart?

Again, have you ever seen a Marshall pitcher throw in either 1) competition or 2) while they are training live?

How can you make assumptions when you happen?

Chris, what is the most powerful action the shoulder joint can make? Can you tell me that?

Also, did you read my math on much force is required to throw a baseball 90 mph? Care to comment?