Would you forgive Clemens and Bonds if they Apologized??

[zahavasdad]

Would you forgive Clemens and Bonds if they pulled an Andy Pettite and apologized and told Kids roids is Stupid and beg for mercy on the court?

I personally am a Yankee Hater, but I can admire and respect Pettite for what he did, He is OK in my book. He is so the Anti Bonds and Anti Clemens

While I hate Bonds and Clemens, Depending on how they ask for forgiveness, its possible I could forgive them

[LouGehrig]

For what must they be forgiven?

[philkid3]

Meh, my forgiveness doesn't really matter, and they don't need it from me, anyway.

I'm not particularly happy with them if my suspicions are true, but they haven't been proven true yet. And if they are, I don't blame them. It's the player's job to help his team win, and taking steroids makes that goal easier. If not for the illegallity (and maybe even then) I'd probably juice, too, if it meant I could play baseball.

It's baseball's job to police this crap. Not that player's are off scott free, and I do lose a lot of respect for them, but they don't have anythign to appologize for, either.

[LouGehrig]

You mean we agree?

[Mattingly]

From Bonds, I'd have to hear what kind of PEDs he'd used, what he was aware of using at the time it was given to him, and I'd have to hear from Greg Anderson if he'd told Bonds what he was taking.

Then I'd have to listen to see if the "apology" wasn't just another tightly-worded spin thing designed to avoid some kind of prosecution.

From Clemens, I'd have to hear what kind of PEDs he'd used, what he was aware of when Brian McNamee gave him this, and what he has to say about Pettitte's various statements.

Same with the apology.

Since I don't expect either to apologize, as they both seem too interested in maintaining their HoF likelihood, I don't know what else to say.

[Brian McKenna]

I certainly would hold more respect for them.

It doesn't take a genius to realize that both were heavily involved in steroid use. I'm actually a little insulted that they would keep telling me otherwise. Everyone would have gotten over Rose a lot faster if he wasn't such a complete ass. This is the same path Clemens and Bonds are taking. It's their reputations that are suffering.

The thing here is that this will tear away at them personally and professionally. Pettitie is smart enough to realize that life continues and that we need to sleep at night and live with as little stress as possible. Hiding and lying are not condusive to this as we all know.

However, Pettite is no saint in all this despite the move to deify him. Brian Roberts is no saint.

Steroids has tainted the game but we'll all get over it. What people don't get over is the attitude and disrespect paid to the fans by star athletes. Remember, that Pete Rose was a hugely respected and admired athlete. Today, his name invokes more scorn than nostalgia with the public at large.

To me, we need to know the facts so we can better understand and examine the era. There will be many that escaped without recognition for their use but we need to get all the info we can.

[philkid3]

You mean we agree?

I like yanking your chain, but I'm sure intelligent minds find a way to agree sometimes.

[MyDogSparty]

That's great question because I think they're both guilty of knowingly using PEDs. Is it solid enough to prove in a court of law that they're both lying? No. At this point I don't think anyone has proof that would hold up in court to say that they're not innocent. But that doesn't mean they're NOT guilty (OJ Simpson taught me that). It just means there's not enough evidence. Since this entire process started I've tried to follow it pretty closely. I'm not claiming to be an expert by any means but I feel that in my heart that I've seen, read and heard enough to say that both Clemens & Bonds are guilty and the opinion of the courts or anyone else no longer matters to me. They could get off scott-free by the courts and it still wouldn't matter to me. Life isn't fair or always just, but, life does go on. So be it.

You'all can say "shame on me because" in America, we're all "innocent" until PROVEN guilty but I would venture a guess that more people get away with their crimes than get caught because of lack of evidence or plea bargains. That's a fact of life. Clemens and Bonds will probably be people who get off. So I'm not expecting an apology.

Now if they suddenly decided to offer an apology that would be interesting. I'm a sucker for forgiveness because I've had to ask for more than my fair share in life. Because they've so vehemetly denied things a lot would depend on what they said and how they said it. If they offer an apology like Lo Duca, forget it. At this point they would need to be sincere and apologize not only for using PEDs but lying to me and trying to deceive me. Another thing that would matter would be the time that has passed between the offense and the apology. Pete Rose taught me that it's possible to wait too long. Like I said, life goes on and it they wait too long, I would accept their apology but it wouldn't mean as much and I would much more concerned with current things going on in life.

[spark240]

For what must they be forgiven?

For lying?

[Williamsburg2599]

Depends. If it's anything like La Duca and Gagne's "apologies" then no. Not to mention they would have to have a pretty good explanation on why they lied for so long. But as people have said before, why does what one fan thinks matter and It would be more a respect thing then a forgiveness thing.

[Imgran]

It would be more like, I wouldn't lose any more respect than I already have.

[fenrir]

if they admitted to the full extent of their use and apologize to the fans and players, then probably yes.

[Zito75]

I've already lost all my respect for both guys. Personally I could care less if I see either on a diamond ever again.

[RubeBaker]

If they took the Pettite route and admitted the truth off the bat, then yes. At this point, I find it kind of hard to.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

I certainly would hold more respect for them.


It doesn't take a genius to realize that both were heavily involved in steroid use. I'm actually a little insulted that they would keep telling me otherwise. Everyone would have gotten over Rose a lot faster if he wasn't such a complete ass. This is the same path Clemens and Bonds are taking. It's their reputations that are suffering.
And it's that same attitude that very well may keep both put of the HoF.

The thing here is that this will tear away at them personally and professionally. Pettitie is smart enough to realize that life continues and that we need to sleep at night and live with as little stress as possible. Hiding and lying are not condusive to this as we all know.
I think Pettite thought that it was better to admit it now, take the heat, and move on.


However, Pettite is no saint in all this despite the move to deify him. Brian Roberts is no saint.
They are the same as Bonds/Clemens but they are not getting any of the vile hatred that Bonds/Clemens are now receiving.


Steroids has tainted the game but we'll all get over it.
Yes, most baseball fans will move on and in time we can put some historical perspective on the Steroid Era.


What people don't get over is the attitude and disrespect paid to the fans by star athletes. Remember, that Pete Rose was a hugely respected and admired athlete. Today, his name invokes more scorn than nostalgia with the public at large.
This is what really tweaks fans. We can put up with the huge salaries and the ego many ballplayers have but show us fans a little respect.

To me, we need to know the facts so we can better understand and examine the era. There will be many that escaped without recognition for their use but we need to get all the info we can.
Hopefully, in time more and more information will become public to give a better idea as to how many ballplayers used PEDs.

[NJMetfan4life]

Would you forgive Clemens and Bonds if they pulled an Andy Pettite and apologized and told Kids roids is Stupid and beg for mercy on the court?

Nope:disbelief:

[Skin & Bones]

If they took the Pettite route and admitted the truth off the bat, then yes. At this point, I find it kind of hard to.

Except that Pettitte originally lied about his own HGH use twice. When the Grimsley Affidavit first came out, Pettitte denied using PED'S. Then over a year later, when he's named on the Mitchell report, he admits to using it in 2002, but never mentions any other use. Then we later learn he used HGH in 2004, supplied by his father. I mean, what else is next?

The man has flat out lied before, and technically never admitted the truth off the bat.

[Steven Tyler]

I've already lost all my respect for both guys. Personally I could care less if I see either on a diamond ever again.

FYI-I couldn't care less is the proper phrase. That you had respect to lose is a feat in it's own self.

[Old Sweater]

I don't need a apology.

The one's I have heard so far haven't sounded that sincere.


Of course I don't believe all of what I hear. People are always lying about how they really feel on something.

[Yankeebiscuitfan]

Apology or not. They are cheaters.

Pettitte took HGH too, but he did it to recover from an injury. I can turn a blind eye on that one.

But Clemens and Bonds? No I will not forgive them. But do they care? Don't think so. I still say that when a player is in the fall of his career, he knows that his performance will not be what it used to be. It is something that comes with getting older. It is something you have to accept. You can not expect that you will stay on the same level for ever. Look at Nolan Ryan for example. His body was aching for days after an outing.

They just have to face it.

Just my :twocents:

[Old Sweater]

Apology or not. They are cheaters.

Pettitte took HGH too, but he did it to recover from an injury. I can turn a blind eye on that one.



Just my :twocents:


Not that I mind how you feel about it, but what is the difference of taking HGH for recovery from a injury as Pettitte did, compared to Clemens taking it for recovery between starts? That is if he did take HGH?

Clemens never did have trouble with his velocity for the assumed 1 to 3mph for a fastball. Tom House said he gained 30 lbs and his recovery improved but it didn't help his velocity at all.

I think way to much is made about pitchers who use PED's for the assumed 1-3mph it can add to his velocity with no documented proof of any kind. The general public thinks if a pitcher is using PED's he could actually throw a baseball through a brick wall, which is far from true. A pitching arm is 97% what you are born with and how you decide to increase the other 3% is up to the pitcher. Training and technique or try PED's which cause more harm if you take the PED's for the assumed velocity gain. Those PED's just wind up tearing up your tendons and ligaments in a very short time.

[bob]

No i wouldn't forgive them for cheating. Do you believe anything either of them say anyway? It would just be a PR stunt in an effort to improve their reputation. The only thing they would be sorry for is getting caught.

[Old Sweater]

No i wouldn't forgive them for cheating. Do you believe anything either of them say anyway? It would just be a PR stunt in an effort to improve their reputation. The only thing they would be sorry for is getting caught.


What about the other 100 or so that is on some kind of banned substance list?


Any fan that suspects any player of PED use is still showing their support of them each time they pay money in any way to watch a game that player is in.


If any fan believes what Caminiti or Canseco said about 40-60% of players using, is still showing support to these players each time they pay in any way for a game.


MLB would rather have $upport then forgiveness as far as PED's go.


I don't hold no high moral standards towards the players, after MLB and the owners condoned the use of PED's for 40 years, so I don't feel like I'm getting pawned or supporting baseball in any way, that I feel is wrong to avoid feeling like a hypocrite, if I support baseball after knowing of their use of PED's.

[Yankeebiscuitfan]

Not that I mind how you feel about it, but what is the difference of taking HGH for recovery from a injury as Pettitte did, compared to Clemens taking it for recovery between starts? That is if he did take HGH?

Clemens never did have trouble with his velocity for the assumed 1 to 3mph for a fastball. Tom House said he gained 30 lbs and his recovery improved but it didn't help his velocity at all.

I think way to much is made about pitchers who use PED's for the assumed 1-3mph it can add to his velocity with no documented proof of any kind. The general public thinks if a pitcher is using PED's he could actually throw a baseball through a brick wall, which is far from true. A pitching arm is 97% what you are born with and how you decide to increase the other 3% is up to the pitcher. Training and technique or try PED's which cause more harm if you take the PED's for the assumed velocity gain. Those PED's just wind up tearing up your tendons and ligaments in a very short time.

Pettitte only took it twice to recover from an injury. Clemens took it after every game he pitched. Quite a difference.

[Old Sweater]

Pettitte only took it twice to recover from an injury. Clemens took it after every game he pitched. Quite a difference.

That is 4 times(assumed) for Pettitte and self assumption at this point in time for Clemens. If Clemens used, it was also to recover, he had the arm.


Also Pettitte was lying about the short time use in 2002 or 2004 since he said he didn't know short term use wouldn't help you. Pettitte had to have known about short term use one year or the other. Plus the trainer he sold out Clemens for, should have been able to tell him all about HGH. There, a little self assumption for Pettitte also.

[zahavasdad]

It took guts on Pettites part to go to a Newsconference and TAKE OPEN QUESTIONS (No Softballs) and admit he was wrong

Whatever his motivation was and maybe he hid it before, But the first step on the road to forgiveness is admit you made an error.

BTW I HATE the Yankees so I am not saying I respect Pettite because he is a Yankee, I repsect him for doing whats right.

No other player has come out and said what they did was wrong

[Old Sweater]

If what Canseco and Caminiti said is true about the 40-60% using, at 40% there should be around 300 more apologies coming if the players are truthful and come forward about the matter.

Throw in the use of amphetamines and you can add another 200 where the 2008 season would be starting in July.

[fenrir]

That is 4 times(assumed) for Pettitte and self assumption at this point in time for Clemens. If Clemens used, it was also to recover, he had the arm.


Also Pettitte was lying about the short time use in 2002 or 2004 since he said he didn't know short term use wouldn't help you. Pettitte had to have known about short term use one year or the other. Plus the trainer he sold out Clemens for, should have been able to tell him all about HGH. There, a little self assumption for Pettitte also.

big diff between pettitte and roger. clemens took them for years in much larger amounts to alter his career path. pettitte took them a couple of times to recover from injuries. pettitte is a cheat, clemens is a much more flagrant cheat.

[Old Sweater]

big diff between pettitte and roger. clemens took them for years in much larger amounts to alter his career path. pettitte took them a couple of times to recover from injuries. pettitte is a cheat, clemens is a much more flagrant cheat.

At this point in time that is self assumption again. Just go's to show you the hate and prejudice against Clemens.

Any cheat using PED's is a flagrant cheat according to the MLB rules.

You still buying that story of short term use by Pettitte? He was either lying about short term in 2002 or 2004 with his statement of not knowing short term use didn't do you no good. That means Pettitte used it long term in 2002 or 2004.

[fenrir]

maybe pettitte did use longer. not too sure. he still could be using, mlb doesnt test for hgh.

[Old Sweater]

maybe pettitte did use longer. not too sure. he still could be using, mlb doesnt test for hgh.

Nor do they have a test for some of the newer steroids. My whole point is Clemens is being used as the whipping boy by the press, fans and MLB for something that is rumored to be widespread, because of his fame. I doubt if there is one fan that wouldn't feel the same way, if they was in Clemens shoes.

[rockin500]

eh, theres nothing really to forgive. IF they used, and lied about it, yeah thats not good. But its not really my place to forgive or not. These guys arent role models (they shouldnt be at any rate), arent heroes, they are human beings who screw up just like everyone else.

can they forgive themselves when the time comes? Will they be able to live with the consequences of their actions? Thats really the question. Theres nothing really to forgive on my end, since sports stars are entertainers, ultimately.

[MyDogSparty]

Just go's to show you the hate and prejudice against Clemens.

That would be a self-assumption on your part. It is possible to believe that Clemens used PEDs for an extended period without the hate and predjudice.

[SHOELESSJOE3]

Nor do they have a test for some of the newer steroids. My whole point is Clemens is being used as the whipping boy by the press, fans and MLB for something that is rumored to be widespread, because of his fame. I doubt if there is one fan that wouldn't feel the same way, if they was in Clemens shoes.

Here we go again, fair or not fair it's the big names they go after. We spoke of this before, why do they keep bringing up Gaylord Perry and rule breaking. Because he won 300 games thats why, don't bother with any so so pitchers that may have done the same.

Can we talk some street talk now. What would happen if they laid off of Roger. For sure, OH get the black player Barry but leave Roger alone. Either way someone will think it was unfair, to leave Roger alone or go after him.

Clemens is where he is because he chose to fight, welcomed that panel of politicians. He was going to prove to them and the world that McNamee was liar and in the end, he should have stayed home. Tripped up on dates, conflicting statements and the words of his best buddy Andy Pettite he looks worse than ever.

Get all over Pettite say what you like if Roger never confessed to him and I believe Pettite, it was Roger's own words that finished him off with the public.


Lets forget all the others you keep harping on, Perry, McNamee the rat, Pettite. If Roger didn't go the way of the needle he wouldn't be in this position.

[SHOELESSJOE3]

Lets face the facts, Pettite is also catching some flack because he revealed what Roger told him about steroid use going back to 1995.

Not going to defend Andy he lied in the past but fear under oath brought out the truth. Even if sincere that he took that substance to recover from an injury, I don't cut him any slack as guilty as any other that did.

What else can he do, he said he was sorry, didn't hide from the press stood there and took what they threw at him, what more could he do.

Roger chooses the Pete Rose strategy stand and fight and so far he appears to be digging a deeper hole.

[fenrir]

the problem i have with clemens is his stats. it just doesn't seem normal to me. im looking at clemens 1996 season and i see a bit of a drastic change in his performance, especially in his last ten starts in 1996. according to the clemens bio on baseball library.com after the all star break clemens struck out 123 batters in 111 1/3 innings. its like he came out of nowhere more durable and stronger then he had been in the past three seasons!!...then he goes on to have the best back 2 back stretch of his career, a combined 198 era+, two cyyoung awards, set career highs in so/9 twice, and won two straight triple crowns. why wasn't he capable of this before? clemens best stretch pre toronto was from 1990-1992 when he was in his 20's with a 180 era+, no triple crowns, striking out less batters per game, 1 cyyoung. thats a hell of a stretch, but what happened in toronto was better, and he was in his mid 30's!!!!!! wtf kind of career path is that? he then got injured in 1999, started on hgh, and probably used lesser forms to avoid another injury. still he posted a 150 era+ in his 40's, and 180 from 04-06. it's weird career path, and besides an injury plauged season or two...he didnt decline. only other guys getting better in their 30's and 40's prior to their 20's is mcgwire, bonds, palmerio, all juicers. with pettitte i don't see any weird spikes in his career that would seem unsual to me. i think he used more for injuries.

[Old Sweater]

Here we go again, fair or not fair it's the big names they go after. We spoke of this before, why do they keep bringing up Gaylord Perry and rule breaking. Because he won 300 games thats why, don't bother with any so so pitchers that may have done the same.

Can we talk some street talk now. What would happen if they laid off of Roger. For sure, OH get the black player Barry but leave Roger alone. Either way someone will think it was unfair, to leave Roger alone or go after him.

Clemens is where he is because he chose to fight, welcomed that panel of politicians. He was going to prove to them and the world that McNamee was liar and in the end, he should have stayed home. Tripped up on dates, conflicting statements and the words of his best buddy Andy Pettite he looks worse than ever.

Get all over Pettite say what you like if Roger never confessed to him and I believe Pettite, it was Roger's own words that finished him off with the public.


Lets forget all the others you keep harping on, Perry, McNamee the rat, Pettite. If Roger didn't go the way of the needle he wouldn't be in this position.


It is unfair.

I don't understand why all the fans that despise the use of PED's so much continue to show their support of a game where there is wide spread rumors about a high percentage of players using PED's. I don't approve of athletes using PED's like most fans, but I'm not going to be throwing self righteous high morals at them for use of PED's in a league that has condoned it for years and have not done nothing about it except for the selected few. Maybe some fans should wait until little white bunny rabbits start playing on the field after they clean the game up which IMO will be never.

As far as Clemens go's he has taken the path that most players have, that have HOF numbers. Why do you think the majority do it? Has to be a good reason, if you use any logic.

[Old Sweater]

Here we go again, fair or not fair it's the big names they go after. We spoke of this before, why do they keep bringing up Gaylord Perry and rule breaking. Because he won 300 games thats why, don't bother with any so so pitchers that may have done the same.

Can we talk some street talk now. What would happen if they laid off of Roger. For sure, OH get the black player Barry but leave Roger alone. Either way someone will think it was unfair, to leave Roger alone or go after him.

Clemens is where he is because he chose to fight, welcomed that panel of politicians. He was going to prove to them and the world that McNamee was liar and in the end, he should have stayed home. Tripped up on dates, conflicting statements and the words of his best buddy Andy Pettite he looks worse than ever.

Get all over Pettite say what you like if Roger never confessed to him and I believe Pettite, it was Roger's own words that finished him off with the public.


Lets forget all the others you keep harping on, Perry, McNamee the rat, Pettite. If Roger didn't go the way of the needle he wouldn't be in this position.



If Pettitte is playing the choir boy he should have sang a truthful tune and admitted to the press that he cheated and knew about short term use of HGH. Pettitte hung himself with that excuse when he volunteered that info of his 2004 use.

[SHOELESSJOE3]

It is unfair.

I don't understand why all the fans that despise the use of PED's so much continue to show their support of a game where there is wide spread rumors about a high percentage of players using PED's. I don't approve of athletes using PED's like most fans, but I'm not going to be throwing self righteous high morals at them for use of PED's in a league that has condoned it for years and have not done nothing about it except for the selected few. Maybe some fans should wait until little white bunny rabbits start playing on the field after they clean the game up which IMO will be never.

As far as Clemens go's he has taken the path that most players have, that have HOF numbers. Why do you think the majority do it? Has to be a good reason, if you use any logic.


I'm with you on that one, the game never was and never will be completely clean. If the fans wanted it that way we would never watch the game of baseball or in plain truth we would not watch or attend any sport.

I'm not going to shut out the game I love because it has flaws and rule breakers.

As for Roger, he can't win, admit or fight, he is now viewed differently than some years ago. Because there others who have not been brought up front won't change how he is viewed. It still goes back to the fact that he put himself in this position. He supplied the ammo by his supposed action. I say supposed because even though I think he was a user he still has to be considered innocent.

[Silver Blaze]

FYI-I couldn't care less is the proper phrase.


Both forms are in widespread usage.

http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-ico1.htm

[Skin & Bones]

eh, theres nothing really to forgive. IF they used, and lied about it, yeah thats not good. But its not really my place to forgive or not. These guys arent role models (they shouldnt be at any rate), arent heroes, they are human beings who screw up just like everyone else.

can they forgive themselves when the time comes? Will they be able to live with the consequences of their actions? Thats really the question. Theres nothing really to forgive on my end, since sports stars are entertainers, ultimately.

I pretty much agree here. This whole "steroid era" garbage is blown way out of proportion. What's amazing to me is how the Mitchell Report solely focused on Steroids and HGH (which is merely a recovery tool), yet completely left out presumbly 40-50 years of possible Amphetamines abuse. I mean it's not like they would bother talking to Mike Schmidt about his use of amphetamines, and ask what he knew about them and their possible usage around the sport, yet Mitchell had Giambi basically repeat his entire steroid regimen again, which everyone already knew about. Now with Greenies, unlike HGH, there's legitimate evidence that it does improve athletic performance, but since the old-timers may have dabbled with these drugs, MLB doesn't want to look into it's past use, perhaps calling into question numbers or records of the past.

For what it's worth, while fans may complain about baseball not testing for HGH, there is also a possibility that the Amphetamines testing may not stop the users from taking them.

Dr. Gary Wadler of the World Anti-Doping Agency says undetectable amphetamines are already available.



http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/writers/john_donovan/08/25/amph.friday/2.html

[cards kid]

I've already lost all my respect for both guys. Personally I could care less if I see either on a diamond ever again.

:homeplate:

[NYMets523]

They never will so it doesn't matter.

[rockin500]

They never will so it doesn't matter.
and assuming they did use, thats on them. They havent done anything TO me to make me have to forgive them, anyways. It'd be akin to giving Ozzy Osbourne forgiveness for all the years of excess and then him apologizing to everyone for his screwups. He wouldnt need to apologize to US. he would need to apologize to his family and those directly hurt by any actions. or keith richards or robert downey junior or russell crowe or drew barrymore..

as maximus asked so eloquently: "Are you not entertained?" And thats what professional sports is. entertainment with a competitive basis. Nothing more, nothing less.

[SHOELESSJOE3]

I pretty much agree here. This whole "steroid era" garbage is blown way out of proportion. What's amazing to me is how the Mitchell Report solely focused on Steroids and HGH (which is merely a recovery tool), yet completely left out presumbly 40-50 years of possible Amphetamines abuse. I mean it's not like they would bother talking to Mike Schmidt about his use of amphetamines, and ask what he knew about them and their possible usage around the sport, yet Mitchell had Giambi basically repeat his entire steroid regimen again, which everyone already knew about. Now with Greenies, unlike HGH, there's legitimate evidence that it does improve athletic performance, but since the old-timers may have dabbled with these drugs, MLB doesn't want to look into it's past use, perhaps calling into question numbers or records of the past.

For what it's worth, while fans may complain about baseball not testing for HGH, there is also a possibility that the Amphetamines testing may not stop the users from taking them.



Yes amphetimines can heighten alertness/quick boost of energy and fight fatigue all short term. Continued use can cause, insomnia, weight loss, hallucinations, confusion, anxiety and some other undesirable effects.

You say it proven that amphetimines improve performance maybe so but the same could be said of steroids.

The jury is still out, theres another side that believes that steroid gives an edge to the user over those not using. Shortens recovery time from injuries, allows one to increase working out time, build lean muscle mass, add body weight which can in turn increase overall strength. Like speed it's believed that steroids can do damage if used over long periods.

No one is going back 30 or 40 years, yes it was wrong to use greenies, can't undo what happened in the past. So whats your take, since they used greenie years ago lets just let steroids slide. You know that could never be. Makes no sense, they were doing greenies years ago, why be concerned about steroids. It's here, the ban accept it.

[Skin & Bones]

Yes amphetimines can heighten alertness/quick boost of energy and fight fatigue all short term. Continued use can cause, insomnia, weight loss, hallucinations, confusion, anxiety and some other undesirable effects.

You say it proven that amphetimines improve performance maybe so but the same could be said of steroids.

The jury is still out, theres another side that believes that steroid gives an edge to the user over those not using. Shortens recovery time from injuries, allows one to increase working out time, build lean muscle mass, add body weight which can in turn increase overall strength. Like speed it's believed that steroids can do damage if used over long periods.

No one is going back 30 or 40 years, yes it was wrong to use greenies, can't undo what happened in the past. So whats your take, since they used greenie years ago lets just let steroids slide. You know that could never be. Makes no sense, they were doing greenies years ago, why be concerned about steroids. It's here, the ban accept it.

Sure, there are negative side-effects to Greenies (Though a ballplayer who comes on this very site has stated the negative side-effects are over rated), as there are with steroids. The difference between the two being is that while one enhances performance immediately, and takes no work to reap from it's benefits, the other takes massive hours spent at the gym to reap from it's benefits, while risking potential injuries. If steroids were "better", why would players still risk taking Greenies knowing about these supposed horrific side-effects to them? Why would they take them when they can use steroids? I think the answer is because they work. The benefit is there. How much do these players rely on them, well, take a look at these allegations made by Grimsley detailed In the Grimsley Affidavit: Tejada’s name was mentioned when Grimsley described a conversation he had with Orioles teammates Tejada, Palmeiro and Sammy Sosa about how they would play after baseball banned amphetamines.

http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071220/SPORTS02/71220095/1118/RSS

That allegation right there, along with other ball players today admitting Greenies is rampant, clearly shows that there is (or was) a vast Amphetamines problem in baseball that players still try to get around today. Why Mitchell didn't try to get any information on that is beyond me. The report was a joke.

[Skin & Bones]

And Just to throw this out in the open: Amid discussion of steroids and human growth hormone, amid an atmosphere more tame than tempestuous, it was Representative John F. Tierney, a Massachusetts Democrat, who caught everyone’s attention when he asked why the number of major leaguers claiming therapeutic-use exemptions for attention deficit disorder had mushroomed to 103 this past season from 28 in 2006.

To Mr. Tierney, the implication of the sharp increase was clear. Players were brazenly getting around the ban on amphetamines by making attention deficit disorder claims that allowed them to use stimulants like Ritalin and Adderall. Based on the 2007 numbers, Mr. Tierney said, the use of such stimulants among major leaguers was “almost eight times the adult use in our population.”

How, Mr. Tierney wanted to know, had baseball allowed this to happen?

And - Dr. Allan Lans, the Mets’ team psychiatrist from 1985 to 2003, was more blunt. “The No. 1 drug use of sports is really amphetamines,” he said. “Amphetamines are the real performance-enhancing drugs that people should always have been worried about.”

He said he was not surprised that players were seeking exemptions to use certain stimulants, and were citing attention deficit disorder. “The ballplayers who are smart want a legal way to get amphetamines, not an illegal one,” he said. “The doctors are easily conned.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/16/sports/baseball/16stimulant.html?hp

[SHOELESSJOE3]

And Just to throw this out in the open:

And -

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/16/sports/baseball/16stimulant.html?hp

I don't doubt that there was and still may be more greenie use than steroids but thats not because they improve performance more so than steroids if thats the point you may be trying to get across.

Thats an easy one to figure out. Lot easier to just pop a pill rather than keep some sort of schedule to inject ones self. I'm not surprised , pop that pill then take the field......or take the needle and do some lifting. The pill is easier not of more value to performance.

[Skin & Bones]

I don't doubt that there was and still may be more greenie use than steroids but thats not because they improve performance more so than steroids if thats the point you may be trying to get across.

Thats an easy one to figure out. Lot easier to just pop a pill rather than keep some sort of schedule to inject ones self. I'm not surprised , pop that pill then take the field......or take the needle and do some lifting. The pill is easier not of more value to performance.

I'd argue that the pill is extremely valuable in specific games, especially if your physically not up to playing.

[SHOELESSJOE3]

Sure, there are negative side-effects to Greenies (Though a ballplayer who comes on this very site has stated the negative side-effects are over rated), as there are with steroids. The difference between the two being is that while one enhances performance immediately, and takes no work to reap from it's benefits, the other takes massive hours spent at the gym to reap from it's benefits, while risking potential injuries. If steroids were "better", why would players still risk taking Greenies knowing about these supposed horrific side-effects to them? Why would they take them when they can use steroids? I think the answer is because they work. The benefit is there. How much do these players rely on them, well, take a look at these allegations made by Grimsley detailed In the Grimsley Affidavit:




You just gave an answer to your line, your question that follows the bold letters. Thats why they prefer greenies. Isn't is easier to just drop a pill rather than use steroids which most users probably combine with working out.
Steroids may be of the same value or better but taking that pill is less work, thats probably the reason, it's not because greenies ar better.

[Skin & Bones]

You just gave an answer to your line, your question that follows the bold letters. Thats why they prefer greenies. Isn't is easier to just drop a pill rather than use steroids which most users probably combine with working out.
Steroids may be of the same value or better but taking that pill is less work, thats probably the reason, it's not because greenies ar better.

I never said they were better, I just argued that if MLB really cared about it's drug problem they would of told Mitchell to investigate Amphetamines use by players as well.

[Old Sweater]

That would be a self-assumption on your part. It is possible to believe that Clemens used PEDs for an extended period without the hate and predjudice.

Yes it was. I was basing my self assumption from what I have read on 4 baseball boards and what I have heard on ESPN radio. I should have said percentage wise, other then let some assume, I meant every fan and person of the general public. I have read to many "I hope that Clemens rots in jail" or other replies of the same content, on to many boards, to know that there is more hate of Clemens shown, then the assumption he just was a long term user, without hate being a factor. I can't believe how many so called baseball fans, are clicking their heels, over the fact that Clemens is the victim of a witch hunt<------IMO.......just so they can hate more on Clemens. You also have to figure in the Yankees hate and Yankees players hate, of the fans, that is still the biggest hate of any sport, on any board or paper that I have read.

So IMO<-------Much hate and prejudice has been thrown at Clemens because of his fame and the fact that he was a Yankees player that sold his wares, months into the last few seasons.

[Old Sweater]

I'm with you on that one, the game never was and never will be completely clean. If the fans wanted it that way we would never watch the game of baseball or in plain truth we would not watch or attend any sport.

I'm not going to shut out the game I love because it has flaws and rule breakers.

As for Roger, he can't win, admit or fight, he is now viewed differently than some years ago. Because there others who have not been brought up front won't change how he is viewed. It still goes back to the fact that he put himself in this position. He supplied the ammo by his supposed action. I say supposed because even though I think he was a user he still has to be considered innocent.


I agree with you on his stance but not on how the situation came about.

Selig/ ex owner of a small market club appoints Mitchell to head the investigation

George Mitchell/ Red Sox front office/ member of Congress/ chairman of the board for the drug company involved/ and I'm not sure but I believe that Scheer(?} who was at the hearing, works for Mitchell's law firm that he owns.(?) IMO<------- That is way to much conflict for Mitchell to have been appointed and I'm sure anyone who is standing in Clemens shoes, or is a fan of Clemens, feels the same way. Even a good percentage of neutral baseball fans would agree on that.

Red Sox/ no active players on list. Didn't resign Brian Donnelly just hours before the list was released. Gabe Kapler a body builder sat out a year in his youth to coach a Red Sox minor league team?????????? Kapler trying out for the Brewers this year????????

Brewers/ no active players on list that I know of.

Yankees Players/ have a target on their back, can't be this much of a coincidence with the wide spread use of PED's in MLB.

Yankee Hate/ #1 in the Nation, which makes many haters 2nd fav team "whoever is playing the Yankees."

MLB/ Letting most players collect HOF career stats before the player becomes a focal part of a investigation for the sake of making MLB look good on their stance on PED's in the sport.

MLB/ Selig and Fehr tap dancing around questions at a Congress hearing and lied about not supporting the silence of players and owners regarding the Mitchell report.

[SHOELESSJOE3]

I never said they were better, I just argued that if MLB really cared about it's drug problem they would of told Mitchell to investigate Amphetamines use by players as well.

I'm not sure if I stated that you said amphetimines were better or were a more effective performance substance. If I recall one of your posts contained an attachment, an article that said amphetimine use was more widespread than steroid use.

That article appeared to downplay steroid use, what about amphetimines. So my point of my later post, it was more convinient, easier to just drop a pill, greenies than to follow a schedule of steroid use which is often coupled with working out. Thats probably the reason greenies are preferred over steroids, not because greenies are a better, more effective performance booster.

I think they should have looked into, exposed more and discussed the use of amphetimines at the hearings. The Mitchell report should also have dug into the use of greenies but I think the explosion in recent times of the use of steroids made steroid use in the game their only target.

Both are bad and MLB should have done something about substance use years ago.

[CJMorello]

Forgive them for what? They cheated, whether at the time, it was against baseball rules or not. They both took substances, that without perspirations are illegal. As far as Andy goes, why do many think that he is better than Clemens. Because once backed up against the wall with no choice he, only then, decided to tell the truth. DO people really think that this is someone you can tell a kid is a role model. That if you do something illegal, and once questioned by the government, if then you tell the truth you are a good person. Maybe if once steroids and Hgh use had become a big issue, Andy had then come out and admitted it then possibly you have something. But he only did so once given no choice but admitting the truth. Only difference is that Clemens is more arrogant and probably at this point has convinced himself that he did not do them. Because he was once arguably the greatest pitcher to play the game. Now he is a guy that was in "Twilight of his carear" and used drugs to continue his carear.

[Stumanji]

Would you forgive Clemens and Bonds if they pulled an Andy Pettite and apologized and told Kids roids is Stupid and beg for mercy on the court?

Here's how I feel about this...

Imagine you have the perfect girlfriend. She's gorgeous, funny, cute, smart, and incredibly sexy. You are madly in love with her.

But, she gives you this vibe that she's cheating on you. You can't prove it, but you think she's fooling around.

Every time you bring it up, how friendly she is with certain guys, how she's often staying at "her sister's house", how funny she thinks some other guy is, etc. -- every time you bring it up, she gets defensive and calls you crazy and repeatedly denies cheating on you.

Years go by, and the same behavior persists, and she still repeatedly denies it. Then the relationship starts to come to an end. You just don't trust her anymore, even though you can't prove she's done anything. She senses the end but doesn't want to lose you, because you're awesome (and you are - pat yourself on the back) so she comes clean. She says she cheated on you, several times, mostly in the past - and that she didn't really know it was cheating because she was drunk, or in a different area code, or because it was a threesome. She's telling you because she wants forgiveness, she wants to start fresh, and she doesn't want the reputation as a CHEATER.

Do you forgive her?

I can't.

[Old Sweater]

If she was my girlfriend, the answer is no, it was my pick out of the population.

If she was a player on my favorite girls team where 40-60% are suspected cheaters, the answer is yes.

If she was a victim of a conducted witch hunt to single her out, my answer is yes.

If she was a victim of investigator with a conflict of interest, my answer is yes.

If she was the only one singled out in a league of non cheating players, my answer would be no.

[spark240]

If what Canseco and Caminiti said is true about the 40-60% using

Everybody knows there were more users than those named by Mitchell.

However, I wouldn't go by the proportional estimates of players who, by all accounts, tended to advocate their own usage and surround themselves with other users. I expect the clean players mostly kept their distance from those two.

[Go get em Tigers]

They, and many like them, soiled the great game of baseball. They cheated and created "records" that are illegitimate. At least Mark McGwire had enough respect for baseball tradition to get out of the game, before he challenged a record.

[JerseySoxFan19]

i wouldn't forgive 'em. even if they did apologize it'd be like "i'm just gonna say sorry so i don't look like the big piece of crap i am.".

[Mild Sauce]

They are the same as Bonds/Clemens but they are not getting any of the vile hatred that Bonds/Clemens are now receiving.

I agreed with a lot of what you said, but this is something that I just cannot understand. What sacred records did they break? How did their performances completely blow up as a use of these things?

Those right there are just little things. The thing that gets me more is the constant lies that spewed from the mouths of both Bonds and Clemens. They simply lied and tried to throw other people under the bus while doing it. Clemens tried to ruin the life of McNamee, and Bonds allowed his friend to serve one entire jail sentence and most of another. What these guys did was much worse than anyone else. Not just because of how it helped their performances, but because of who they hurt and the lies they told in the process. I cannot in any way condone that sort of behavior.

The guys who took them once or twice or whatever and admitted it when they got caught are obviously no saints, what they did was very bad and I hate the fact that they did the juice, but you simply cannot within all rational reason compare them to what Bonds and Clemens have done.

As for the question posed by the topic, I'll forgive, as I always will, but I will never forget.

[Brian McKenna]

The thing that gets me more is the constant lies that spewed from the mouths of both Bonds and Clemens. They simply lied and tried to throw other people under the bus while doing it. Clemens tried to ruin the life of McNamee, and Bonds allowed his friend to serve one entire jail sentence and most of another. What these guys did was much worse than anyone else. Not just because of how it helped their performances, but because of who they hurt and the lies they told in the process.

Nice post! The egos those two must have (plus Clemens' wife) to throw others under the bus for their own actions. Kind of disgusting if you think about it. Not anyone I would want surrounding me.

Bonds just sat there probably feast at the finest restaurants and living his charmed life while Anderson was incarcerated. Great guy!

Likewise with Clemens and his wife - calling news conferences, taping conversation, going all the way to Congress and calling McNamee the liar when it was them putting on the act. Doesn't get much dirtier. Old story I guess about the rich stepping on whomever they please and believing the rules pertain to all but them.

The further it goes into this mess, the more I hope people don't stand up and treat them like heros again - on the street or in Cooperstown.

[TonyK]

What are the qualifications for an athlete to make the Hall of Shame? There are quite a few modern era jerks in several sports who must be very close to making it.

[west coast orange and black]

^^
is andy pettite on your short list?

[SilentKiller]

I'd have nothing to forgive them for because they haven't anything to me personally. It's their bodies and if they choose to put drugs in their bodies that is their choice not nobody else's choice.

[BoweryBoys]

Nice post! The egos those two must have (plus Clemens' wife) to throw others under the bus for their own actions. Kind of disgusting if you think about it. Not anyone I would want surrounding me.

Bonds just sat there probably feast at the finest restaurants and living his charmed life while Anderson was incarcerated. Great guy!

Likewise with Clemens and his wife - calling news conferences, taping conversation, going all the way to Congress and calling McNamee the liar when it was them putting on the act. Doesn't get much dirtier. Old story I guess about the rich stepping on whomever they please and believing the rules pertain to all but them.

The further it goes into this mess, the more I hope people don't stand up and treat them like heros again - on the street or in Cooperstown.

Mild Sauce and BK, two right on guys who clearly understand why this matter is important and why "the steroid era" is probably the darkest and most corrupt era in the history of the game. I guess myself, and the two guys mentioned above, are what some people here might call "high moral fans". I'm proud to be called that and in such company of people who clearly "get it" to use an expression.

Bonds and Clemens, such "heroes" they deserve our unquestioning and blind support. When my kids grow up, I want them to be just like those two. After all those is no higher calling then to go to jail for your friends, even when they may be guilty of illegal activity..right?

[BoweryBoys]

"High moral" fans of the world unite, you have nothing to lose but your fan privledges. (i.e. your right to hate steroids in the game, question records, and continue to support the game you have loved and supported for years unless you just accept steroid use as no big deal)

My apologies for paraphrasing John Sayles in "Eight Men Out" here. I guess that makes me a bigger sleaze then those who used illegal drugs in MLB to prolong careers and make a mockery of records.