Who's Killing Youth Sports

[Jake Patterson]

We discussed this before and it has become a topic at HSBW. Here's the article Who's Killing Youth Sports. I resurrected the article because recent research shows that 1:200 HS baseball players make it to the pros. I would argue these numbers as being way off as the NCAA analysis did not include Non-NFHS members and it did not include the rising number of foreigners taking MLB, MiLB spots (Last year 28%). With 750 MLB spots and approximately 120 new spots opening up each year, filled by 30% non-American players this makes the number of HS players making it to the top spots more like 1:15,000.


http://www.parade.com/articles/editions/2005/edition_08-07-2005/featured_0

[Slapper23]

Jake, great article. I believe it is the adult influence that hurts youth sports. I'm talking only about the negative behavior described in the article, because many adults do a great job with kids.

I have been guilty of pushing, pushing, pushing my kids and now granddaughters. I get too wrapped up in their performance. I'm too tough on my 12 yo granddaughter in fastpitch and basketball. along with that is the early immersion of kids in league and travel ball. My granddaughter has played travel softball since she was 8 and when you add the "push" factor of her grandpa, she informed me she does not want to play this summer. This from a kid who just wails on the ball with a great rotational swing. But grandpa gets too negative, something I manage to avoid with other's kids, where where I'm very positive.

Now, I think she likes b-ball better than softball. She has played AAU last winter and is now 5'7" wearing a size 11 shoe. Well, I need to back off and offer more positive encouragement, not brow beating.

My point is, I don't think my drive and behavior is that much different than some parents. It becomes more important to me than the kid. Not good. So, yeah, I can see how kids turn off and tune out. And there are coaches who coach all kids like I do my granddaughters.

It gets back to adult behavior and an over-organized day after day after day scheduling of kid's time. We need to let them be kids and enjoy their childhood. I am guilty.

Mike

[Jake Patterson]

Having the advantage of being able to look back at what we did with our now adult children - and in your case your grandchildren- we can easily see the follies of others. I made a bunch of mistakes with my two boys, but managed to leave them with a love for the game, both in their own way. My oldest 27 an advid fan of the game, my youngest 23 as a player.

[Slapper23]

Jake, I hear ya. My daughter, Cybil, is now 33 y.o. and played fastpitch, but she is a HUGE ST. Louis Cardinal's fan. We took her to games early on and it stuck with her. Had to buy her a Pujols jersey last year, set me back pretty good, and she does wear it.

Hopefully, I can still learn from my mistakes with my 12, 8 and 3 y.o. granddaughters, and instill that love for the game...whether it's softball or b-ball or whatever.

Mike

[TG Coach]

I've read the entire Sports Done Right research paper. While I won't disagree with much of what's said in the research, Maine is hardly the center for getting a balanced perspective. A much smaller percentage of Maine high school athletes earn college athletic scholarships than an average state. University of Maine has mostly out of state athletes. Their hockey team should be named University of Canada, Maine campus. Their baseball team has seven (of 35) players from Maine.

[Jake Patterson]

I've read the entire Sports Done Right research paper. While I won't disagree with much of what's said in the research, Maine is hardly the center for getting a balanced perspective. A much smaller percentage of Maine high school athletes earn college athletic scholarships than an average state. University of Maine has mostly out of state athletes. Their hockey team should be named University of Canada, Maine campus. Their baseball team has seven (of 35) players from Maine.
How does this compare to a similar size State from down south???

[TG Coach]

How does this compare to a similar size State from down south???

My statement wasn't intended to be a north versus south statement. It was a statement of fact based on the size of the state, any small state, anywhere. This study just happens to be from Maine.

When kids are raised in an environment where they are less likely to be looking for athletic scholarships, they are going to have a different perspective than those who live in areas where it's more likely to be a reality. Parents don't get weird when they don't see kids getting college rides. When they see kids around them getting rides they are more likely to get weird about it for their own kid.

Personally I think a lot of the behavior problems in the pre teen sports relate to parents fearing their kid isn't as good as the next kid, rather than the goal of a college ride. Throw in we have become a self centered society where courtesy is extremely secondary to success. I rarely remember parents yelling at refs when I played. I remember crude parents from low class town yelling. Now it's the professional from the upscale neighborhood. It's a mother. It's anyone. It's becoming an every day event.

I've run many youth baseball and basketball leagues. There may not be a negative behavior I haven't seen other than a weapon being pulled. And these parents have to know their kids aren't going anywhere in the game. They just want their kid to get the $10 piece of plastic at the end of the season. It makes their kid better.

[Drill]

A combination of all of the above along with there is a broad spectrum of other interest out there now. So kids just loss interest in the game, no matter which sport they are playing.



drill


PS Now the kids are turning into adults and are play the game of life. By Parker Davis or is it Hasbro.

No wait its produced by the man above.

[Jim W.]

Baseball takes a LOT of hard work to be a good player. If kids are not getting playing time, they tend to drop it for something else.

[Three A's baseball]

out of curiosity what are the odds of that same HS Player earning a :

Div 1
Div 2
Div 3

etc...


Scholarship.

[glovemedic]

How does this compare to a similar size State from down south???

In Tennessee we have 17 of 35 rostered players from in-state HSs

[Jake Patterson]

Baseball takes a LOT of hard work to be a good player. If kids are not getting playing time, they tend to drop it for something else.
Jim anything done professionally takes a great deal of work. My nephew is a professional runner. He's ran for Providence who won the Big East. They faired well in the NCAA and will have 3 runners moving on to the Olympics. I've never seen an athlete work so hard at his craft.

[Jake Patterson]

out of curiosity what are the odds of that same HS Player earning a :

Div 1
Div 2
Div 3

etc...
Scholarship.

I am working on this with NCAA to see if this can be better define the above. I contacted the person responsible for the last report (which I feel is flawed).

The problem is -contrary to popular belief there is no definitive study that shows probability and the 1:200 (HS/Pro) number used by many is flawed.

The academic and athletic standards each school differs. There is a different sets of standards for say UCONN basketball and Central Connecticut State University - both D1 schools. (BTW CCSU made it to the NCAA last year and UCONN did not) So each school and division has varying requirements that do overlap at the top and bottom. It is more difficult for example to play for Eastern CT State University Baseball -D3 than it is some D1 colleges. They made it to NCAA WS 5 out of the last 6 years. With some of their players paying for the whole ride themselves.

The 1:200 number uses NFHS numbers of 470,671 HS baseball players. I do not believe this include NON-NFHS members (private schools) or home schooled students, nor does it consider players from other countries. last year 28%(?) of the MLB drafts were from other countries. If we look at 750 MLB spots with only 120 new players being rotated in and out (just a guess)each year and 28% of those players coming from outside the country.... Well you can do the calculations...

[Steven Tyler]

PS Now the kids are turning into adults and are play the game of life. By Parker Davis or is it Hasbro

You mention preparing youth and teens for life after baseball and they will stone you for blasphemy at hsbaseballweb. White collar America runs baseball for the most part and the average kids get left behind. Give me a coach that reaches out to the kids that don't have it all handed to them that makes a difference any day over a coach that holds up a trophy for the team picture for the well-to-do.


In other words, baseball in America has turned green as in the color of money.

[virg]

Adults. First day of baseball for me was about 1942 at age 6. I can tell more than you have time for about the pros and cons of pre-LL baseball and football (never touched that other d'thang). But I can tell you the BS never started until adults showed , at 13. Rec leagues introduced us to coaches. Coaches brought more negatives by far than plusses. Seldom taught much. I admit that we wouldn't play ball at All with deadbeats when we could help it, they knew it and sought games at their own level to play in. How brutal is that?

But the theme is Adults.
One war story okay? Two? High school football in Ohio. High rated small class local team facing Cincinnatti Moeller, larger and also rated. Several thousand grown spectators but no hint of shame.

Steady rain throughout. Locals' ball, between plays; ref cradles ball under his jacket, rubs it down until huddle breaks. Then spots ball under towel. Whips the obviously clean light fluffy towel off as Center reaches for ball. Replaces towel under jacket.

Visitor's ball? Ref uses diry wet towel dangling from back pocket (whipping from it like chain). Makes two swipes with it, spots it in the rain, ball waits in rain for huddle to break. Well, square that I am maybe I just hadn't ever watched that closely before? (little soap would'nta hurt either but locals won anyhow)

At Massilon, of Paul Brown fame. The team moniker is "Tigers", and wouldya believe what they drag around the field in a cage before the game and at halftime?

I think unfairness and outright cheating are traits unlearned early then relearned in adulthood.

[wogdoggy]

the more the number foreign ballplayers the LESS likely it will gain viewers..look at the nhl the nba,the more foreigners the less popular it will become to Americans..

FOOTBALL,hardly any foreigners europeans etc...the most widely viewde sport..

americans dont want to see the europeans its eveident in the nba and hockey and not evident in football...:shhh:

[metropop]

Guys,
I am in my 5th year of coaching youth athletics, I'm 38 and have coached baseball, football and assisted in basketball. One thing I have done that has alleviated some of crud that takes place with parents is too sit them down collectively before the season starts and lay out expectations for our team and especially addressing conduct for parents.

I have had less problems than most because I have asked that parents not speak openly in front of their kids if mom and dad are unhappy with some of my decisions. If parents casually discuss that they think I am an idiot in front of their kid, the trickledown effect will ruin the team. Little kid tells teammate and so on.......

My success meter with parents isn't 100% but my horror stories in dealing with parents seems to be significantly less than most volunteer coaches. I just simply ask that if parents don't agree with my decision, call me and lets discuss it. I do ask that they be prepared to back up their concerns with something other than emotions. Handling the kids is by far and away the easist part of being a volunteer coach, but when you can get parents expectations in check you are getting as close to harmony as possible.

[whoisonit]

the more the number foreign ballplayers the LESS likely it will gain viewers..look at the nhl the nba,the more foreigners the less popular it will become to Americans..

FOOTBALL,hardly any foreigners europeans etc...the most widely viewde sport..

americans dont want to see the europeans its eveident in the nba and hockey and not evident in football...:shhh:

Is this a discussion of youth sports or xenophobia ? Just asking.

[Go Cardinals]

I was talking to my coach (not hs coach), who happens to be watching me this week, about this... we both agree on our verdict. We both see this first hand. I have some friends that quit baseball, because of laziness and the desire to play video games. I think the real killer is video games. Why go play yourself, when you can be Albert Pujols on your x-box 360? Why play guitar when you can beat guitar hero on expert? Why do anything when you can be the best without any practice (comparably speaking)?

This to me is why kids stop playing sports. They can easily sit down on the coach all day and play video games.

I think I've said this before here. My brother is getting recruited heavily by colleges for lacrosse. I've watched him. I look up to him, because he has obviously done some amazing things. He has not touched a video game for 4 weeks. Neither have I.

[wogdoggy]

Is this a discussion of youth sports or xenophobia ? Just asking.

sorry wrong board BUT here is an EXAMPLE of what is RUINING youth sports,,
I placed an ad for a 14u boys travel ball player and heres a response..read it carefully,I was shocked.



what tournaments are you scheduled to play?
how many other "A" players do have on your team?
do you need an elite middle infielder and pitcher?
how many tournaments do you plan on playing?
what league do you play in?
where is your home field?
do you play 60/90? or 54/80 (I will only play 60/90)

Me: Right handed/switch hitter/ spec. in middle infield and pitch
have played all over the u.s. last year with team mizuno of florida, golden triangle of penn., briarwood out of denver, played with team illinois in the late summer and fall, raiders out of florida(winter ball)

I am not looking to be coached, I am looking for a 14 year old team to play for in April & May, we'll see how things develop from there and talk about the future tournaments later. If your looking for a "player" please call
1-@@@$$$-412*
thank you
Allen

[wogdoggy]

I was talking to my coach (not hs coach), who happens to be watching me this week, about this... we both agree on our verdict. We both see this first hand. I have some friends that quit baseball, because of laziness and the desire to play video games. I think the real killer is video games. Why go play yourself, when you can be Albert Pujols on your x-box 360? Why play guitar when you can beat guitar hero on expert? Why do anything when you can be the best without any practice (comparably speaking)?

This to me is why kids stop playing sports. They can easily sit down on the coach all day and play video games.

I think I've said this before here. My brother is getting recruited heavily by colleges for lacrosse. I've watched him. I look up to him, because he has obviously done some amazing things. He has not touched a video game for 4 weeks. Neither have I.




main reason in my opinion....GIRLS

[Go Cardinals]

main reason in my opinion....GIRLS

There close... Younger = video games, then you grow into girls...

Both have a lot of merit

[Jake Patterson]

One thing I have done that has alleviated some of crud that takes place with parents is too sit them down collectively before the season starts and lay out expectations for our team and especially addressing conduct for parents.
This is a great plan I do it myself, but it does little to change the adults expectations of their own children.

[Jake Patterson]

Is this a discussion of youth sports or xenophobia ? Just asking.

Xenophobia is a fear or contempt of that which is foreign or unknown, especially of strangers or foreign peoples.[1] It comes from the Greek words ξένος (xenos), meaning "foreigner," "stranger," and φόβος (phobos), meaning "fear." The term is typically used to describe fear or dislike of foreigners or in general of people different from one's self.

From Wikipedia

[Jake Patterson]

sorry wrong board BUT here is an EXAMPLE of what is RUINING youth sports,,
I placed an ad for a 14u boys travel ball player and heres a response..read it carefully,I was shocked.



what tournaments are you scheduled to play?
how many other "A" players do have on your team?
do you need an elite middle infielder and pitcher?
how many tournaments do you plan on playing?
what league do you play in?
where is your home field?
do you play 60/90? or 54/80 (I will only play 60/90)

Me: Right handed/switch hitter/ spec. in middle infield and pitch
have played all over the u.s. last year with team mizuno of florida, golden triangle of penn., briarwood out of denver, played with team illinois in the late summer and fall, raiders out of florida(winter ball)

I am not looking to be coached, I am looking for a 14 year old team to play for in April & May, we'll see how things develop from there and talk about the future tournaments later. If your looking for a "player" please call
1-@@@$$$-412*
thank you
Allen


I think Allen will not last long in HS or college.

[wogdoggy]

I think Allen will not last long in HS or college.

lol..my reply was "have your agent call me"



then i get this

thank you
maybe you should grow up and realize that their is better talent out their than what you have currently

[wogdoggy]

then i told him to re read his original post,i thought it was loaded with attitude,,,then i get this




My son's attitude is great.
Your attitude is something that needs to be evaluated. If you were really looking for a real player, you would jump at the offer. Your probably like all the rest of the political ******* managers that manage teams that need to protect there own kids because there not good enough to play real travel baseball.

My kid doesn't need to be coached he just wants to play. You can't teach him anything he already doesn't know. You come across intimidated or insecure of that fact. He has professional coaches!

You sound like a man that is trying to fill a void that didn't exist as a child. I'm sorry for you. I hope your team is successful, probably not because you don't play competitive real travel baseball.
Take Care

" You missed the boat "

[wogdoggy]

then i tell him thats a boat i woudnt board if he were on it..and if he was that good he would already be playing



then i get this beauty




We are already playing idiot!
He just wanted to play games locally during the week, and on weekends when he's not traveling down to Texas, Georgia and Florida. I instructed him that if he applies to ads like yours, he will get the kind of responses he's gotten like yours. Intimidated, Insecure and Immature managers like you.
You should really be ashamed of yourself! You really think your doing justice to the families and kid's that participate in/on your team?
Really




then it gets uglier and uglier..what is the problem with youth sports?

I know one:hp

[metropop]

Ok, Here is my guess about "Allen"

Dad maybe played a little ball but never got too far, maybe a little taste of high school. Kid has tools and Dad lives and dies through his kid. My guess is that Allen isn't much of a team player, probably not a good clubhouse or in this case, dugout guy. Man I get tired of seeing parents setting bad examples like this. Allen might be a stud, but his Dad sure isn't helping his attitude by emphasizing to him that he doesn't need help from anyone but a pro. I am still in the 10 and under league and I assume it progressively gets worse with kids and parents but, knock on wood, I haven't had to deal with this situation head to head just yet.

I think I would take my chances and show this kid and his dad the door.

[wogdoggy]

Ok, Here is my guess about "Allen"

Dad maybe played a little ball but never got too far, maybe a little taste of high school. Kid has tools and Dad lives and dies through his kid. My guess is that Allen isn't much of a team player, probably not a good clubhouse or in this case, dugout guy. Man I get tired of seeing parents setting bad examples like this. Allen might be a stud, but his Dad sure isn't helping his attitude by emphasizing to him that he doesn't need help from anyone but a pro. I am still in the 10 and under league and I assume it progressively gets worse with kids and parents but, knock on wood, I haven't had to deal with this situation head to head just yet.

I think I would take my chances and show this kid and his dad the door.

u are pretty much right on,,except allen is medicore and dad goes nuts promoting him..the ole man lost his travel team after the first season.the team stayed together but booted allen and coach dad..gee go figure???:rofl:

[Steven Tyler]

Anybody ever notice that the Mariners set a Major League record for wins after future HOF players Randy Johnson, Alex Rodriguez, and Ken Griffey, Jr. left.

I had one kid in football tell me one time, "Do you know how good this team would be without me?" I replied, "I'm guessing still 0 and 5, but I sure would like to try. You're welcome to leave any time you get ready."

He eventually found more time on the bench than on the field.

[Jake Patterson]

Anybody ever notice that the Mariners set a Major League record for wins after future HOF players Randy Johnson, Alex Rodriguez, and Ken Griffey, Jr. left.

I had one kid in football tell me one time, "Do you know how good this team would be without me?" I replied, "I'm guessing still 0 and 5, but I sure would like to try. You're welcome to leave any time you get ready."

He eventually found more time on the bench than on the field. I had a stud from Puerto Rico play for me a bunch of years back who made the mistake of saying, "You wouldn't dare kick me off your team I'm the best player you have."

[Baseball gLove]

I had a dad tell me if I started a certain pitcher, he'd yank his son, my #1 pick, from the team. We started playing a lot better and won more games without him. Lost the championship 2-1 by 1st & 3rd situation with 2 outs error by the catcher in the last inning.

[Go Cardinals]

I've heard some guys saying to the coach, "why'd you pull me, I'm better than them." They didn't get much plating time after.

I know, I never make those comments... It feels weird when you do. Know what I mean? Kind of like how bad grammer sounds bad, it sounds bad when you are cocky.

[TG Coach]

I had a stud from Puerto Rico play for me a bunch of years back who made the mistake of saying, "You wouldn't dare kick me off your team I'm the best player you have."

When first started coaching after college, I kicked one of the best players off my Babe Ruth team (13-15). One of the kids asked me how I thought we could win without him. My response was now I can focus on teaching baseball instead of babysitting, and the younger kids he was picking on can relax. We won the league championship.

[Drill]

sorry wrong board BUT here is an EXAMPLE of what is RUINING youth sports,,
I placed an ad for a 14u boys travel ball player and heres a response..read it carefully,I was shocked.



what tournaments are you scheduled to play?
how many other "A" players do have on your team?
do you need an elite middle infielder and pitcher?
how many tournaments do you plan on playing?
what league do you play in?
where is your home field?
do you play 60/90? or 54/80 (I will only play 60/90)

Me: Right handed/switch hitter/ spec. in middle infield and pitch
have played all over the u.s. last year with team mizuno of florida, golden triangle of penn., briarwood out of denver, played with team illinois in the late summer and fall, raiders out of florida(winter ball)

I am not looking to be coached, I am looking for a 14 year old team to play for in April & May, we'll see how things develop from there and talk about the future tournaments later. If your looking for a "player" please call
1-@@@$$$-412*
thank you
Allen

Allen should get an agent

drill


PS edit ---- oops, did not read above posts till after I posted.

[southcarolina]

Hello,

Ive been lurking around this forum for a few months...i stumbled across it a while back while trying to find some information on squishing the bug :)... and would first like to say that i think this forum is pretty awesome. The assembled experts and knowlege here astounds me sometimes.

Anyway, i am 37 and have two sons 11 and 8 yrs old who play baseball (and soccer) The older boy is a good athlete, a developing first baseman and a bangup goalie in soccer. The younger one is an athlete, who excels in is age group in pretty much any sport he tries. I played lots of sports growing up, but never played one inning of organized baseball. So, in a lot of areas, i have to depend on others to coach my boys in baseball.

We are preparing to participate in our very first travel baseball tournament this weekend with they 8 yr old. He was just invited to join a 9U team. Now after two practices and one scrimmage/butt whippping against our 10U team we are jumping in with both feet.

I have heard that travel baseball can be pretty crazy. We thought long and hard about whether we wanted to expose our son to this kind of environment. In the end we decided that until we experienced it first hand, we wouldnt be able to make an educated decision. We have of course had our share of crazy parent/coach stories from simple rec leagues. The coaches of our travel team organization seem to be pretty committed to not being over the top. But i guess we'll find that out on Saturday.

I dont have much to add to the conversation here, except to say that i think youth sports can be an awesome learning experience for kids, as long as we remember that they are kids. When my younger son was 6 he played up into Coaches pitch and in his soccer league(on a 7-8 age group team) and i was constantly having to remind people that he was often the youngest person on the field, and that expecting him to act like an 8 yr old wasnt fair to him. It didnt help that he was/is big for his age, so it wasnt uncommon for people to be surprised that "the big kid playing shortstop" was still in kindergarten.

This is a big reason why we wont let him "play up" anymore. A lot of people expected/wanted us to put him in Minors this season and we didnt. One more season of Coaches Pitch wont scar him for life. Everyone always says that the most important thing is that the kids have fun, and whats more fun than being one of the top 2 or 3 kids in the league :)


Anyway, this has gotten way longer than i intended. I just wanted to say hello, and hopefully i wll be able to contribute something at some point down the road.



sc

[Jake Patterson]

Welcome to BBF SouthCarolina... As you point out there is much to learn from the game. You seem to have a healthy perspective on it and this should guide you well.

As you begin your journey I would recommend that your don't let the travel ball crowds talk you into believing your son NEEDS TB at a young age or he won't be able to compete. Fun comes first... If it isn't fun drop out.

[TG Coach]

Before I respond ....

What travel affiliation?
How many games or tournaments in the schedule?
How long is the season?
Will tournaments require three or four games in a day?
How far will you travel to play?
How often will the team practice?
What are your objectives in having your son play for this team?
Does your son pitch?

[metropop]

OK, going to deviate from the original topic a little here but how many games per year is too much for 12-under baseball?

The reason I ask is that I have a few friends and we have agreed to disagree on what the magic number of games a kid should play each year. I am in the camp that about a total of 40 games is more than enough. That is alot of baseball but still allows a kid to be a kid. I can remember in college ball we couldn't really tell who played extensively traveling and who didn't. A few guys had a little more "polish" than others but at the end of day talent won out regardless of pedigree.

A little more close to home was comparing my brother and I. I probably spent 10X more time in the cage, took all the fungo's and was one of those scrappy ballplayers that people love to cheer for. My brother took a couple hacks before the game, barely stretched a muscle and got drafted. His work ethic caught up with him and was gone after two years but whenever I hear about all the games or all the private lessons, I just think of that story. I just feel like with everything I have seen through the years, not just with my brother, but with everybody that some get blessed with talent and some don't.

[southcarolina]

**************

[TG Coach]

At 9U I believe playing ten tournaments wrapped around LL is way too much. Ten tournaments will be 40+ games. Now add in the LL season, LL playoffs and 9/10 all-stars and you're probably in the 65-70 range.

If you're playing tournament ball that's run by USSSA, AAU or similar, chances are it takes three or four games on Sunday if you play in the championship. Once again, too much ball. It's not the same as kids playing pickup ball all day long. In travel they have to deal with demands and expectations of parents. Please don't tell me the adults won't put pressure on the kids with the number of tournaments expected to be played.

As far as pitching goes wait until the team is making semifinals and finals before you decide on arm safety. I've seen 9U kids pitch nine, ten innings a weekend.

I allowed my son to pitch one inning a week when he was nine, two when he was ten, three when he was eleven and then six when he was twelve. We went back to fifty pitches max when he moved to 13U at sixty feet. There are a lot of kiddie ball pitching studs no one is going to remember. My son was never "the man" on the mound because I didn't allow it. Now at fourteen and a high school freshman he has a live arm.

As far as games played in a day, I never played in a triple header in my life from LL through college ball. If colleges and pros don't play triple headers, why is it good for little kids? It's bad enough my son has had to play three in a day in 13U and 14U. It's silly. But at least I waited until he was on the big field. At 12U we wouldn't play tournaments that would require three on Sunday.

[southcarolina]

At 9U I believe playing ten tournaments wrapped around LL is way too much. Ten tournaments will be 40+ games. Now add in the LL season, LL playoffs and 9/10 all-stars and you're probably in the 65-70 range.

If you're playing tournament ball that's run by USSSA, AAU or similar, chances are it takes three or four games on Sunday if you play in the championship. Once again, too much ball. It's not the same as kids playing pickup ball all day long. In travel they have to deal with demands and expectations of parents. Please don't tell me the adults won't put pressure on the kids with the number of tournaments expected to be played.

As far as pitching goes wait until the team is making semifinals and finals before you decide on arm safety. I've seen 9U kids pitch nine, ten innings a weekend.

I allowed my son to pitch one inning a week when he was nine, two when he was ten, three when he was eleven and then six when he was twelve. We went back to fifty pitches max when he moved to 13U at sixty feet. There are a lot of kiddie ball pitching studs no one is going to remember. My son was never "the man" on the mound because I didn't allow it. Now at fourteen and a high school freshman he has a live arm.

As far as games played in a day, I never played in a triple header in my life from LL through college ball. If colleges and pros don't play triple headers, why is it good for little kids? It's bad enough my son has had to play three in a day in 13U and 14U. It's silly. But at least I waited until he was on the big field. At 12U we wouldn't play tournaments that would require three on Sunday.


So i guess what youre saying is you dont like travel baseball. :) I appreciate the feedback, as i said we entered into this with a certain amount of trepidation. But until we see it for ourselves, there isnt any way for us to make an educated decision. I dont disagree with anything you said, too much is just too much. I wont argue or make rationalizations. We dont know where this is leading, and wont know until we get there. :)


BTW it wasnt my intention to hijack this thread to debate travel ball, i was just giving a little background about myself and my kids involvement in baseball.

[Chris O'Leary]

OK, going to deviate from the original topic a little here but how many games per year is too much for 12-under baseball?

I think 25 games is enough for 12Us.

[Drill]

I think 25 games is enough for 12Us.

I will get back to you after I talk to my 13 year old son agent.



Just kidding,


drill

[TG Coach]

So i guess what youre saying is you dont like travel baseball.

In 9U and 10U my son played community based travel ball in the summer after Ripken was over. They never played more than two games in a day, and never back to back. If it was a five game tournament they were Friday night and/or Monday night games. They played 28 games each summer which put him at about 45 for the season.

At 11U he was a mercenary player for any USSSA team playing a day here and a day there, if he had time and felt like playing more that weekend. At 12U we formed our own team building towards 13U when it would be the primary team. At eleven and twelve I would say my son played 50 games between LL, all-stars and travel. About 32 were LL and all-stars based on their all-star success,

My son played travel as a supplement of more games. I did not see it as a development tool. Where a kid plays in preteen ball is irrelevanrt to future success.

[wogdoggy]

In 9U and 10U my son played community based travel ball in the summer after Ripken was over. They never played more than two games in a day, and never back to back. If it was a five game tournament they were Friday night and/or Monday night games. They played 28 games each summer which put him at about 45 for the season.

At 11U he was a mercenary player for any USSSA team playing a day here and a day there, if he had time and felt like playing more that weekend. At 12U we formed our own team building towards 13U when it would be the primary team. At eleven and twelve I would say my son played 50 games between LL, all-stars and travel. About 32 were LL and all-stars based on their all-star success,

My son played travel as a supplement of more games. I did not see it as a development tool. Where a kid plays in preteen ball is irrelevanrt to future success.





My son played travel as a supplement of more games. I did not see it as a development tool. Where a kid plays in preteen ball is irrelevanrt to future success

dont you feel that travel ball has better players USUALLY the competition is better. the kids in travel eagues to me..seem to KNOW what to do with the ball when its hit to them..do you also feel that by playing up at say age 12 will get you no better experience and wont make you a better more knowin player? putting size and basic athletiscm ASIDE dont you think the travelers know the game better ?

[glovemedic]

My son played travel as a supplement of more games. I did not see it as a development tool. Where a kid plays in preteen ball is irrelevanrt to future success....

dont you feel that travel ball has better players USUALLY the competition is better. the kids in travel eagues to me..seem to KNOW what to do with the ball when its hit to them..

I have never worried about the quality of competition except from watching our kids play down to the level of the team they faced. The primary motivation for leaving rec ball with my son was getting him on a team with other kids who could catch, throw, hit, and have a clue about where to make a play. At 8U my son was able to roll out of bed and be one of the top 5 players in his league without doing anything between his 1 practice and 1 game each week. That is the five good players were distributed on 5 different teams in the league. Under those circumstances it became difficult to reinforce the message that to be good, you have to practice and work on fundamental skill development (even if it is only with Dad in the backyard). On his travel team, my son is one good player on a team of other good players. Now at 11U, playing time has an almost direct relationship between his hustle and ability/desire to listen, learn, and apply his skills for his coach. He understands that if he struggles with getting a bunt down and the coach won't let him swing away in BP until he bunts successfully he had better put time in the cage learning to bunt. These days he is one who asks me to pitch a round of BP, or stop at a ballfield on the way home for flyballs. I was wondering when that day would come. Now I am looking forward to coming home from work and seeing him and a teammate working in the cage getting in their BP. Probably need a year or two for that next step to develop.

[metropop]

These days he is one who asks me to pitch a round of BP, or stop at a ballfield on the way home for flyballs. I was wondering when that day would come-Glove Medic

Yo Glove Medic, great post! Just because I love the game of baseball I have never expected my kid to follow suit. He has played every year and has good time playing but his passion at this point is football. That is cool too to see him develop his own love for something but I am hoping that he continues playing all the sports he can, while he can. My love for baseball didn't really gel until I was about 13 so we'll see, but I won't complain as long as he sticks with something and enjoys working at it.

[JJA]

The number of games a kid should play depends greatly on the types of games the kids play, i.e., games vs. tournaments. The team my son plays for is a "travel team" but this is a misnomer to some degree. We play only games within a 10 mile radius of our town, with out of town tournaments once or twice a year to test our skill level against the best teams. The rest of the time we play local teams. Our coach knows all of the local coaches and teams and thus schedules lots of games. How many is lots? Well, typical kids play 100 games a year, with some of the hard core kids playing as many as 250 games per year!

I know, it sounds like child abuse but it isn't. All of these games are of the pickup variety. Kids aren't required to play in every game, they come and go based on what their schedule and desires are. Very few of the games are tournament, so their is little pressure. There are just gobs and gobs and gobs of games so kids get experienced very rapidly. The coach has enough kids at each age level (around 25 per squad) that there is plenty of pitching, enough innings for everyone without overwork. The guy has never had a pitching injury doing this for 15 years. Only one practice per week (Fridays), the games are on Saturday and Sunday only so the kids can do their schoolwork.

The point is that you can have gobs of games while keeping it fun and without injury. Kind of like we did as kids. We played tons of games, just didn't have the adults around to yell at us. The kids in this program love it, and get better very rapidly in a low pressure environment. And because the kids are so experienced, when we do play our yearly national tournament or two we always do reasonably well despite not hand picking our teams like everyone else does.

I just wish I could find the same type of team for my daughter instead of that hard core ASA stuff.

[southcarolina]

At 8U my son was able to roll out of bed and be one of the top 5 players in his league without doing anything between his 1 practice and 1 game each week. That is the five good players were distributed on 5 different teams in the league. Under those circumstances it became difficult to reinforce the message that to be good, you have to practice and work on fundamental skill development (even if it is only with Dad in the backyard). On his travel team, my son is one good player on a team of other good players.


Nice post. This is almost our situation to a T. Our 8 yr old is most likely going to be the one of the first kids picked in the upcoming LL Coaches Pitch draft (since he is probably the kid with the most skill whose father isnt a coach), and on pure physical talent will be one of the best players in the whole 12 team league. But when he is playing a league game, he is afraid to throw the ball from pitcher or SS to the first baseman because he is afraid he will hurt someone. So he loops the ball over to first, with like 20 feet of arc on it. Unfortunately, at this age, when there is a big ability discrepancy, the advanced kids are almost invariably reigned in to allow the less advanced kids keep up.

When he played AllStars last summer, i was amazed at how much having 10 other kids with similar skill level improved his game as well. Just being able to throw the ball in warmups with out having to worry about bloodying some kids nose seemed to take a big weight off him.

And just to follow up on a previous post, his team this weekend has 2 games on saturday and two on sunday, none back to back.

[Jake Patterson]

And just to follow up on a previous post, his team this weekend has 2 games on saturday and two on sunday, none back to back.

Too much for an 8 y/o.

[TG Coach]

My son played travel as a supplement of more games. I did not see it as a development tool. Where a kid plays in preteen ball is irrelevanrt to future success

dont you feel that travel ball has better players USUALLY the competition is better. the kids in travel eagues to me..seem to KNOW what to do with the ball when its hit to them..do you also feel that by playing up at say age 12 will get you no better experience and wont make you a better more knowin player? putting size and basic athletiscm ASIDE dont you think the travelers know the game better ?

I believe playing 11U and 12U travel kept his game sharp for LL all-stars. But it's still kiddie ball. Ball on the smaller fields is to learn the basics of the game and build the passion. When the kids hit the big field is when we find out if they're ball players.

[Chris O'Leary]

Too much for an 8 y/o.

I totally agree.

You run the risk of injury for pitchers and catchers and burn-out for everyone.

[TG Coach]

Just being able to throw the ball in warmups with out having to worry about bloodying some kids nose seemed to take a big weight off him.

When my son played 7/8's I told him to throw the ball as he would. It's on the player on the receiving end to pay attention in practice and learn how to catch the ball. This puts the pressure on the player to learn. In two years I never had a player get hurt by a throw. They may not have caught them all, but they got their glove on it.

I told my son not to worry about dropped throws. I told him at any level some players will always be better than others, so get used to it now. He learned to focus on the part of the game he can control and not worry about the rest.

As for the challenge of other players I've always told my son, "Don't accept just being the best player. Always be a better player today than you were yesterday." He's his own competition.

[glovemedic]

Just being able to throw the ball in warmups with out having to worry about bloodying some kids nose seemed to take a big weight off him.

Oh yea, I almost forgot about busting one of my rec players in the lip and having his dental hygienist mother squeezing me for the league insurance info just in case he needed implant surgery. That is a situation I am really glad to have in the rear view mirror these days. Kudos to Jake, JBooth and all of the others that can't get enough of teaching bad players how to play baseball. I am glad y'all have the patience required to do the job and love it.

[southcarolina]

Just being able to throw the ball in warmups with out having to worry about bloodying some kids nose seemed to take a big weight off him.

When my son played 7/8's I told him to throw the ball as he would. It's on the player on the receiving end to pay attention in practice and learn how to catch the ball. This puts the pressure on the player to learn. In two years I never had a player get hurt by a throw. They may not have caught them all, but they got their glove on it.

I told my son not to worry about dropped throws. I told him at any level some players will always be better than others, so get used to it now. He learned to focus on the part of the game he can control and not worry about the rest.

As for the challenge of other players I've always told my son, "Don't accept just being the best player. Always be a better player today than you were yesterday." He's his own competition.


Ive told my son the same thing over and over. But he has already hit two first basemen in the chest/stomach and one third baseman in the back of the head (from centerfield).

[TL_Dad]

Oh yea, I almost forgot about busting one of my rec players in the lip and having his dental hygienist mother squeezing me for the league insurance info just in case he needed implant surgery. That is a situation I am really glad to have in the rear view mirror these days. Kudos to Jake, JBooth and all of the others that can't get enough of teaching bad players how to play baseball. I am glad y'all have the patience required to do the job and love it.

I know Drill will like this.

My oldest son has had his teeth knocked out 3 times. His front teeth and they were adult ones. Both have been capped twice. The last time one had to be removed and replaced with a flipper (removable tooth). The last time was a bad hop and shattered both caps and yes he was wearing a mouth piece. He rinsed his mouth out and returned to practice he was 12 at the time. Sometimes it is a matter of the kid just wanting it more than anything. Some kids are only there because of the parents.

[scorekeeper]

You mention preparing youth and teens for life after baseball and they will stone you for blasphemy at hsbaseballweb. White collar America runs baseball for the most part and the average kids get left behind. Give me a coach that reaches out to the kids that don't have it all handed to them that makes a difference any day over a coach that holds up a trophy for the team picture for the well-to-do.

In other words, baseball in America has turned green as in the color of money.

Baseball has become the latest country club sport, the trend sure seems to be that it’s getting more elite every year. There are still some kids of less than modest means who get to play into and beyond HS, but if the percentage is in double digits, I’d be shocked.

Even those coaches who hold the line and insist on a higher percentage of having fun than looking like Pujols at bat or Santana on the mound, are finding their players getting younger and younger because parents feel that kids not looking like those guys by the time they’re 12 are all washed up.

I haven’t got a clue why people insist on trying to make a dawgone 11YO swing perfectly like clips of the best ML players on their perfect swings. Sure they can do it, but at what cost?

[Drill]

Baseball has become the latest country club sport, the trend sure seems to be that it’s getting more elite every year. There are still some kids of less than modest means who get to play into and beyond HS, but if the percentage is in double digits, I’d be shocked.

Even those coaches who hold the line and insist on a higher percentage of having fun than looking like Pujols at bat or Santana on the mound, are finding their players getting younger and younger because parents feel that kids not looking like those guys by the time they’re 12 are all washed up.

I haven’t got a clue why people insist on trying to make a dawgone 11YO swing perfectly like clips of the best ML players on their perfect swings. Sure they can do it, but at what cost?


yep, and the thing is there body will change in puberty and they will be going up to the big field.

They got to start with the basics and does anyone really know what good youth swing is? I guess that is the reason for copying the hero's.


drill


One year my son hit an unbelievable average with a arm bar swing in little league. Who knows, I shake my head in wounder.

[TG Coach]

yep, and the thing is there body will change in puberty and they will be going up to the big field.


This is why I've waited until high school to pay for any training. Speed and agility training was much better for my daughter at 5'10" when she was fifteen than 4'8" when she was thirteen. Now that my son is 5'10" and a freshman I'm looking into a speed, agility and weight training for him. It would have been a waste of money last year at 5'4".

[LAball]

I coached U10 basketball and there were 3 rookies on my team. I tried to make sure the rookies get about 2 quarters a game. The rookie parents really apreciated it, but some of other parents say they where tired of losing. Whats worse was the other starting kids started to feel the same way. Don't get me wrong the starters are a bunch of good kids, and didn't mind it in the beginning of season, but as the season wore on, it did wear on them. Also it didn't help the the teams where set up poorly as I was on the weaker end of 4 teams. I also noted other coaches would give little playing time to the bench. Well, I stuck my rookies in for most of the 2 quarters, except in the play-offs. I think youth sports should be fun for all, especially when they all paid good money and showed up for practice. Thanks for letting me vent.

[southcarolina]

They got to start with the basics and does anyone really know what good youth swing is?


But what do you do with a kid who already has learned the basics, and is only 8 years old? Do you stop coaching him because they arent the appropriate age to refine their abilities? What am i supposed to do as a father who never played an inning of organized baseball in my life? Am i supposed to wait until my kid is in puberty before i seek out coaches who know what they are talking about? If a kid naturally has a swing that is already very good, is it so wrong to try to improve it? My son last spring as a seven year old in CP made two outs in ~40 at bats, and hit 20 home runs (granted a few of the hits were popups or ground balls that "good players " might have made plays on, but most of his HRs were line drives to right center that skipped two or three times to the fence . The spring before as a six year old playing "up" from tee ball he made like 6 or 7 outs in about the same number of at bats.


At the risk of having this torn to shreds by the experts around here, this is one of his swings:




This video was taken three weeks after his eighth birthday. I know it isnt a technically perfect swing. But it has been very very effective for him. I also know that certain aspects of it will probably cause him problems when he steps up to kids pitch. So, should i not try to get those flaws fixed now?

Also, as another poster alluded to, its very very difficult to get him to even try to change things because he has had so much success. Which is why i thought this travel team would be a good experience for him. Some quality coaching (all the guys played college ball and beyond) some older, more experienced kids to emulate (if youre always the big dog complacency can creep in pretty quickly) and a taste of failure (to hopefully stir his competitive spirit to try to improve).

Yesterday my eight year old experienced something he never has...he went two whole games without getting a hit. And he got hit by a pitch on the left triceps, another something he had never experienced. And you know what? He was up at 7 am this morning asking me when it was time to get ready to go to todays games.

[Jake Patterson]

South,
Your son has a great swing for an 8 y/o.

Many of us who post here have walked the path on which you are about to step. I think the most valuable lessons I learned as a father are:

1. Don't take your son's ability too serious. It may change.
2. There is nothing more powerful than a motivated dad and his son. Just because you didn't play does not mean you cannot become part of the training/learning experience. Your 8 y/o needs you not a coach.
3. He will not "lose" ground because he is not taking lessons from experts. There is a time for this later.
4. Teaching him to love the game is the priority at this age, not teaching him to hit homeruns. Sit back and enjoy the ride.

Hope this helps.

[TG Coach]

My son last spring as a seven year old in CP made two outs in ~40 at bats

This is not that unusual among the more talented kids. Even as a twelve year old in a competitive LL (a majority of the kids played travel also) my son hit almost .800 during the season, .700 in all-stars and over .500 in 12U travel. I saw it as a good year on a kiddle ball field, nothing more.

[TG Coach]

"Your son has a great swing for an 8 y/o."

That's all it is. And it's a good start. Good luck.

[glovemedic]

but most of his HRs were line drives to right center that skipped two or three times to the fence.

My son and his teammates would quickly point out that they were doubles and 2 base errors. Homeruns go over the fence (even in coach pitch).
Relax and enjoy the ride it only gets more fun as they get older.

[wrstdude]

Too much for an 8 y/o.

I think that depends entirely on the 8 year old. You couldn't get me off the baseball field at 8. I'd play sunup to sundown if they'd let me.

[Jake Patterson]

I think that depends entirely on the 8 year old. You couldn't get me off the baseball field at 8. I'd play sunup to sundown if they'd let me.

Hi Wrist,
I'm certain you would agree that there's a big difference between playing the game on a sandlot and organize ball.

[wrstdude]

Hi Wrist,
I'm certain you would agree that there's a big difference between playing the game on a sandlot and organize ball.

Yeah, there's a lot more action in sandlot. ;)

[southcarolina]

My son and his teammates would quickly point out that they were doubles and 2 base errors. Homeruns go over the fence (even in coach pitch).
Relax and enjoy the ride it only gets more fun as they get older.


Not to get into an semantical argument, but i'm pretty sure that from time to time i see Major Leaguers hitting inside the park home runs. When a ball splits the right fielder and center fielder and bounces twice or three times to the fence, and the baserunner is nearing third before the first outfielder gets to the ball, i call that a homerun.


And despite all that ive posted here, i am not a micromanaging dad who sucks all the joy out these games. I say very little at the games, other than words of encouragement, and if you saw me, 99% of the time i would have a smile on my face. I love this game, and i love watching it. I do take great enjoyment from just being at the ballpark.

Yesterday at his first travel team tournament, he went in as a defensive replacement in the third inning. We got two outs and their big slugger stepped in (who had already hit one off the fence in the air on a field that looked pretty big to me) and hit a very high fly ball out to right and my lil dude ran in about 20 or 30 feet, settled under the ball and gloved it for the third out. I was grinning, he was grinning, and everyone was high fiving him. It was awesome.

[Jake Patterson]

Yeah, there's a lot more action in sandlot. ;)
And a lot more fun!

[TG Coach]

their big slugger stepped in (who had already hit one off the fence in the air on a field that looked pretty big to me) and hit a very high fly ball

First, I know your heart in is the right place. But many people here have "been there, done it." Put the terms "big slugger" and "very high fly" in the back of your mind, bring it out in five years and get a good chuckle. I remember watching 10U when my son was 12U thinking, "This is slow motion."
Even 13U seemed like slow motion compared to 14U. When I hear about an 8U shortstop with a laser for an arm, I know it means the kid reaches first on a fly without throwing a rainbow.

[southcarolina]

their big slugger stepped in (who had already hit one off the fence in the air on a field that looked pretty big to me) and hit a very high fly ball

First, I know your heart in is the right place. But many people here have "been there, done it." Put the terms "big slugger" and "very high fly" in the back of your mind, bring it out in five years and get a good chuckle. I remember watching 10U when my son was 12U thinking, "This is slow motion."
Even 13U seemed like slow motion compared to 14U. When I hear about an 8U shortstop with a laser for an arm, I know it means the kid reaches first on a fly without throwing a rainbow.


OK. Hopefully, i'll never get that jaded. I really didnt come in here to say "Look how great my kid is" I was just trying to introduce myself and give a little background info on who i was and what my involvement was with youth baseball. I will kindly leave you experts to your discussions and take my "New Dad Smell" elsewhere.

[Jake Patterson]

OK. Hopefully, i'll never get that jaded. I really didnt come in here to say "Look how great my kid is" I was just trying to introduce myself and give a little background info on who i was and what my involvement was with youth baseball. I will kindly leave you experts to your discussions and take my "New Dad Smell" elsewhere.
South there is nothing wrong with being proud of your son. Inspite of TG's advise he's the first to brag about his kid's accomplishments.
Jake

[TG Coach]

South there is nothing wrong with being proud of your son. Inspite of TG's advise he's the first to brag about his kid's accomplishments.
Jake

You are right. But I do it in relation to the topic and in perspective of the age group. I caveat everything with "if he continues to progress." If I discouraged SC I apologize. SC keep in mind there are always people whojust watch and don't post who learn from what they read here. So every conversation and debate have their value until they get out of control (not that I have a topic in mind for out of control :) ).

[Steven Tyler]

I've never felt inclined to brag about my son's accomplishments in any athletic contest in which he endeavoured. By doing so, it would only be proper that I come back and rip him a new one when he has stunk up the playing field. Nobody wants to do that, so I just keep my thoughts to myself.

I do know of some parents that never boast about their child's athletic ability. They will however, one, let me know how well they're doing in the classroom and in life, and two, because I ask. They are more proud of these accomplishments. I'm talking about All-State players or first team Big XII, too. These parents know you can look their stats up, but you cannot look up their stats in the all so important game of life.

[TG Coach]

My son and I recently drove by a car with a "My son is an honor roll student at XYZ School." My son laughed and said, "If you put a bumper sticker on your car it would say 'My son better make the honor roll or else, at XYZ School.'"

[Drill]

My son last spring as a seven year old in CP made two outs in ~40 at bats

This is not that unusual among the more talented kids. Even as a twelve year old in a competitive LL (a majority of the kids played travel also) my son hit almost .800 during the season, .700 in all-stars and over .500 in 12U travel. I saw it as a good year on a kiddle ball field, nothing more.



My son had one of those years and the next year was a let down, I mean when your batting average drop from 750 to 550 was traumatic for me. Now I understand that kids grow and fields get bigger.

drill

[TG Coach]

In travel my son went from .500 in 12U to .350 in 13U. The field/bases got twenty feet bigger. He got two inches bigger. The extra base hits were now line drive singles and doubles. But the outfielders could play up a little taking away some hits. By being on a good team he faced some 6' - 6'2", 78-82 throwing, early bloomers on elimination Sunday in tournaments.

Response I'll never forget: In 13U my son hit a ball further than he's ever hit a ball in his life (at that point in time) for a triple. As he's dusting himself off he asked it it was out of LL. The third base coach said, "Son, you're not in LL anymore."