Best Pitching Coach Ever?

[fastbal95]

Sir Isaac Newton teaches us how to properly apply force to a baseball. His three laws of motion are our guide.

First of lets define a law in relative to science. The definition of a scientific law is such:

Scientific Law: This is a statement of fact meant to explain, in concise terms, an action or set of actions. It is generally accepted to be true and univseral, and can sometimes be expressed in terms of a single mathematical equation. Scientific laws are similar to mathematical postulates. They don’t really need any complex external proofs; they are accepted at face value based upon the fact that they have always been observed to be true.

Specifically, scientific laws must be simple, true, universal, and absolute. They represent the cornerstone of scientific discovery, because if a law ever did not apply, then all science based upon that law would collapse.


So what this says is that scientific laws are taken to be absolute and true.


Newton's first law and how it applies to pitching a baseball:

Every object in a state of uniform motion tends to remain in that state of motion unless an external force is applied to it.

Baseballs will stay at rest unless acted upon by an external force. They will also move in a straight line unless an external force is applied to it. Baseball pitchers need to apply they force in a straight line with respect towards home plate. Only the force applied in the X coordinate direction counts with respect to release velocity.

Newton's second law and how it applies to pitching a baseball:

The relationship between an object's mass m, its acceleration a, and the applied force F is F = ma. Acceleration and force are vectors (as indicated by their symbols being displayed in slant bold font); in this law the direction of the force vector is the same as the direction of the acceleration vector.

F=ma, or F(the force applied to the baseball in the X coordinate direction)=m(mass of the baseball)a(acceleration)

a(acceleration) is the change in velocity over a certain time period. So basically a(acceleration)=v(velocity)t(time)

Changing F=ma around we get a=F/m, since a=v/t we can substitute so v/t=F/m. We can also change this formula around to get this:

v(velocity)=F(force)t(time)/m(mass of the baseball). Since m(mass) is a constant, we find that v(velocity)=F(force)t(time).

That means that release velocity equals the force a pitcher applies to the baseball times the time period over which pitchers apply that force.

Traditional pitchers do NOT start to apply force to the baseball in the X coordinate direction with respect to home plate till AFTER their glove foot lands. Why is this? Because when their glove foot lands the baseball is either moving backwards, OR not moving at all, stopped still.

Using Mike Marshall mechanics, pitchers start to apply force to the baseball in the X coordinate with respect to home plate when their arm gets up to driveline height. They continue to apply force until release. Their driveline is longer than traditional pitchers. This means that they apply force to the baseball for a longer time period than traditional pitchers.

Newton's third law and how it applies to pitching a baseball:

For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.

This means that the force a pitchers applies towards home plate is only as great as the force that they apply towards second base. Hence, the more force that a pitcher applies towards second base, the more force they can apply towards home plate, the more force, the more velocity, remember v=Ft.

Three ways you can apply force towards second base:

1. The pitching foot can apply force towards second base if pitchers "push" off of the rubber.
2. The glove arm can apply force towards second base if pitchers pull their glove arm straight back.
3. The glove foot can apply force towards second base if pitchers rotate on their glove foot and push back towards second base with it.

Traditional pitchers can apply force using their pitching foot. They could apply apply force with their glove arm, but most if not all DO NOT pull their glove arm straight back. Also, most if not all, "traditional" pitching coaches do NOT teach pitchers to pull their arm straight back towards home plate. Traditional pitchers definately do NOT rotate on their glove foot, so they CANNOT apply force towards home plate with their glove foot. Most of the time, if not all of the time, "traditional" pitchers apply force with their glove foot towards home plate, NOT second base.

Pitchers using Mike Marshall's mechanics are taught to apply as much force towards second base as possible, using the pitching foot, glove arm, and glove foot. Hence, pitchers using Mike Marshall's mechanics are taught to apply more force towards second base than "traditional" pitchers. More force towards second base means more force in the direction of home plate. Remember Newton's third Law.

So, if pitchers using Mike Marshall's mechanics are able to apply force over a greater distance, or time period, and also are able to apply more force, then consequently, pitchers using Mike Marshall's mechanics are able to throw with greater velocities than they would if they used the "traditional" motion.

That people say it hasnt been "proven" on the field is irrelevent. Scientific laws are taken to be absolute and true. Therefore, prove on paper is all that is needed. If this is not true, then all science based upon these laws, would collapse, such as the idea of gravity. And we all know gravity to be very very real and true.

[RIstar]

But can the muscles produce the same amount of power through that different range of motion you are creating using MM mechanics?

The reason MM pitchers will not reach high mph is the muscle contractions are not enough. They sit into there separation and can not get the Core to explode into landing.

Weak Contractions = weak results

Traditional pitchers are far more explosive with hips and shoulders

[beemax]

Scientific laws are similar to mathematical postulates. They don’t really need any complex external proofs; they are accepted at face value based upon the fact that they have always been observed to be true.

This is true when referencing scientific laws, of course. Just because Doc says that his delivery uses these laws better than "traditional" pitchers doesn't make it true, however.

We who believe in the "traditional delivery" (as you guys say it is) need more than to accept the Marshall delivery at "face value."

IMO that is a way to circumvent any opposition to the delivery by Doc; if anyone questions it, refer to Newton's laws, our interpretation of how we feel we use them better than "traditional pitchers," and that all of this only needs to be accepted at "face value."

[fastbal95]

RIstar,

Tell me what specific muscles you use, and I'll tell you what specific muscles we use, why we use them, and why certain muscles we use are better to use than the certain muscles you use.

Thanks

Brett,

I would ask you to find someone who is knowledgable in physics then. Maybe someone who has advanced degrees in physics. To me it seems pretty simple to understand. I can understand that people who dont know as much about physics might not be able to comprehend as well, I dont mean you, just so you know. Ask them what they think about what I wrote and what Doc says in reference to his motion vs the "traditional" motion.

[beemax]

So, if pitchers using Mike Marshall's mechanics are able to apply force over a greater distance, or time period, and also are able to apply more force, then consequently, pitchers using Mike Marshall's mechanics are able to throw with greater velocities than they would if they used the "traditional" motion.

Yet there is zero proof of this. You yourself have said that velocity is not the most important thing for a pitcher to have, yet you guys continue to hang your hat on velo, especially on something that isn't proven. If Newton had come out with some laws that apply to locating your pitches and/or throwing strikes consistently, I would pay more attention.

That people say it hasnt been "proven" on the field is irrelevent. Scientific laws are taken to be absolute and true. Therefore, prove on paper is all that is needed. If this is not true, then all science based upon these laws, would collapse, such as the idea of gravity. And we all know gravity to be very very real and true.

Irrelevant? WOW! Are you serious? Proof on paper is all that is needed? Cmon Joe. Is that a joke?

The Patriots were 18-0 on paper going into the Super Bowl. The Giants were 13-6 on paper. On paper, the Giants should have had no shot, right? Yet they won.

Proof on paper is the weakest "claim" yet I have heard Joe.

I understand Doc's interpretation of Newton's Laws as it pertains to his pitching motion. That doesn't mean I am going to buy into it without proof. That no proof is needed other than "we use the laws better than traditional pitchers" is ridiculous.

It is very safe to say that all the proof you need is on paper. IMO another built in excuse. Keep telling yourself that if you never ever want to get out of Zephyrhills.

I have still yet to see Doc talk about location at length in all of this. Location, IMO is the number one, most important thing a pitcher should do. IMO he doesn't talk about it because he knows that his motion leads to poor location and less strikes. Just my opinion.

[RIstar]

I use every muscle from toe to finger tip to throw the ball.

Main muscles that produce big contractions are Core and shoulders

I'm sorry to tell you but the triceps and forearms are along for the ride and I throw with my lower half then upper body. MM pitchers throw more with there arm and less body.

[fastbal95]

RIstar,

Unfortunately you have no clue as it pertains to MM, Im sorry.

Also, "every muscle from toe to finger tip to throw the ball" is not specific. Neither is core or shoulders. There is no such muscle called the "core" or "shoulders". I asked to to be specific. The tricep brachii is a muscle, you got that one right, but there is no such thing as "forearm" muscles. Again, please be specific.

And you have no clue, the triceps brachii and "forearm" muscles are NOT along for the ride. If you know how to use your body correctly, or more efficiently, then you would understand the the tricep is an accelerator, it extends the elbow joint. There are numerous muscles in the "forearm". Some are accelerators, while some decelerate (Flexors and extensors).

Before you start talking again, I think you might need to crack open an anatomy book bud.

[RIstar]

I bet you throw slower then me lol

I'm not going to comment any more for your lack of knowledge how to throw a ball with power.

You are useless to this site, just leave

I don't care what muscles I will throw harder then most MM pitchers so that is my proof.

[fastbal95]

Brett,

I dont hang my hat on velocity, others hear do, and bring it up constantly. I only refute with science what they say. I do not believe velocity is most important. You know that, we have had multiply conversations on this.


That the Patriots were 18-0, was that a scientifc LAW? I think not. Apples and oranges Brett.

I guess you dont understand the idea of a scientific law.

Brett, I'll be "out of Z-hills" soon enough. Remember, I did in fact play pro ball before I came here, and had great success when I did pitch.

You have yet to see Doc talk, because he doesnt talk on this site, I do. If you want to know his ideas about location, why dont you ask him? I explained it to you last night, but maybe you should ask him. He is the one with a Cy Young award, and multiply other awards and records.

Again, it is your opinion that location is #1. Remember that.

[fastbal95]

RIstar,

You have no clue bud and you show it everytime you post something.

Just because I have played pro ball doesnt necessarily mean I know anything, BUT what have you done kid? Have you pitched college ball, have you gotten drafted? Think not.

You wouldnt know a trouser cuff from a rotator cuff.

[RIstar]

how hard you throw with MM mechanics?

[Go Cardinals]

Ristar, one important thing that MM has is that instead of using smaller weaker muscles like the teres minor and other parts of the rotator cuff... MM mechanics utilizes the teres major and the lattisimus dorsi (sp).

[Go Cardinals]

Ristar, watch the video of sparks... he throws a lot harder than you, no offense... MM just thinks that he is the best pitcher in the world skill wise.

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slug=jp-marshall051007

He's the best MM pitcher, right Fastaball (except for you of course :rofl:)?

[RIstar]

ok card and I can use my Bicep in hitting and it isn't going to do anything different.

I do think it helps injury But I also think you can't get the mph or control.

Everyone needs to remember more stress means more force is added. They work hand in hand. You add more force the stress on the body goes up.

[RIstar]

sparks was rotational NOT MM mechanics

His arm action is not the same as DM talks about and shows how to do.

[jamesh23]

well I believe the deal with MM's guys are that he takes anyone, someone who is throwing 88-90 is not gonna change there ways so instead he takes guys hitting 70-80's or guys with blown out arms and gets them up to mid 80's I guess, so what if he took someone with a great arm that threw 94, and taught them how to apply direct force and straighten out their driveline could perhaps they hit triple digits?

[jamesh23]

I bet you throw slower then me lol

I'm not going to comment any more for your lack of knowledge how to throw a ball with power.

You are useless to this site, just leave

I don't care what muscles I will throw harder then most MM pitchers so that is my proof.


no you wont... your throwing mid 70's last time I checked im sure fastbal throws mid 80's at least, and jeff prolly hits high 80's idk though.

[Go Cardinals]

ok card and I can use my Bicep in hitting and it isn't going to do anything different.

I do think it helps injury But I also think you can't get the mph or control.

Everyone needs to remember more stress means more force is added. They work hand in hand. You add more force the stress on the body goes up.

Wow, that was wrong... I wasn't going to say anything... but wow.

Stress and force do not go hand in hand. You can have the same force... lets say 100N. Next, you apply this 100N of force to a piece of paper. Then you apply and identical force of 100N to a giant brick ball. Which will have more damage? Or as you call is stress?

Here's another factor... have someone hold up a piece of paper... of you can punch it and if you can apply 100N of force, than I'll pay you a lot of money. Why? Because you can only apply as much force to an object as it can take. Make sense?

So now which is smarter? to apply a huge amount of force to a weaker object (ie. tendons and rotator cuff), or is it smarter to apply the force to larger stronger object (ie the latissimus dorsi or teres major)?

Get your facts straight, stress and force do NOT come hand in hand!



Muscles of rotator cuff:
http://www.eorthopod.com/images/ContentImages/shoulder/shoulder_labral_tear/shoulder_labral_tear_anat03.jpg

Latissimus dorsi (sp):
http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en-commons/thumb/1/1c/250px-Latissimus_dorsi.png

Teres Major:
http://www.fitstep.com/Advanced/Anatomy/Graphics/teres-major-rhomboids-anatomy.jpg

[Go Cardinals]

well I believe the deal with MM's guys are that he takes anyone, someone who is throwing 88-90 is not gonna change there ways so instead he takes guys hitting 70-80's or guys with blown out arms and gets them up to mid 80's I guess, so what if he took someone with a great arm that threw 94, and taught them how to apply direct force and straighten out their driveline could perhaps they hit triple digits?

Good point...

[beemax]

I dont hang my hat on velocity, others hear do, and bring it up constantly. I only refute with science what they say. I do not believe velocity is most important. You know that, we have had multiply conversations on this.

Doc's delivery hasn't proven that you can throw harder.

That the Patriots were 18-0, was that a scientifc LAW? I think not. Apples and oranges Brett.

I guess you dont understand the idea of a scientific law.

Maybe you dont, Joe. Do you think Newton just wrote this stuff on paper without any proof and declared it true? This was my point. You are trying to back up Doc's delivery by saying that it only has to be proven on paper. I think this is wrong.

Again, just because Doc says that he is using the three laws more efficiently doesn't make it true. Why do I say this? Because there is little to no proof of Doc's motion being a more efficient way to pitch.

Brett, I'll be "out of Z-hills" soon enough. Remember, I did in fact play pro ball before I came here, and had great success when I did pitch.

Joe, for your sake I hope you are out of there soon enough.

I do remember that you did have great success when you pitched your first year in the NYPL. I also remember that you did this without any of Doc's mechanics.

You have yet to see Doc talk, because he doesnt talk on this site, I do. If you want to know his ideas about location, why dont you ask him? I explained it to you last night, but maybe you should ask him. He is the one with a Cy Young award, and multiply other awards and records.

...Yet he is teaching a delivery that looks nothing like the one he used while winning the Cy Young and setting all those records.

Again, it is your opinion that location is #1. Remember that.

Don't worry, I won't forget it.

[Baseball gLove]

Doc's delivery hasn't proven that you can throw harder.



Maybe you dont, Joe. Do you think Newton just wrote this stuff on paper without any proof and declared it true? This was my point. You are trying to back up Doc's delivery by saying that it only has to be proven on paper. I think this is wrong.

Again, just because Doc says that he is using the three laws more efficiently doesn't make it true. Why do I say this? Because there is little to no proof of Doc's motion being a more efficient way to pitch.



Joe, for your sake I hope you are out of there soon enough.

I do remember that you did have great success when you pitched your first year in the NYPL. I also remember that you did this without any of Doc's mechanics.



...Yet he is teaching a delivery that looks nothing like the one he used while winning the Cy Young and setting all those records.



Don't worry, I won't forget it.

Marshall's innings actually dropped after his Cy Young year. Correlation? His new mechanics=fewer innings?

[Jake Patterson]

Marshall's innings actually dropped after his Cy Young year. Correlation? His new mechanics=fewer innings? Or he was just getting older.He was 32 in 75. Here's his stats http://baseball-almanac.com/players/player.php?p=marshmi01

[RIstar]

why do MM followers have to start threads to try to prove there therories to us so called Traditional thinking people?

[Dirtberry]

Ristar,

Because "Traditional thinking people" are still blowing up the youth.
Older people can pick and choose their path.

[RIstar]

I beg to differ.

I see a problem but it's not with mechanics it's with training type. We don't throw enough and condition the right way that's why we have all theses injuries.

[paul5150]

RIstar, why do you brag about throwing in the 70's. You havnt even made a varsity team yet, and you're saying you throw faster than an expro player. Grow some brains.

[RIstar]

IMO I don't think it can create greater velocity. I never said he wasn't throwing harder then me but he isn't going to throw hard if he listens and follows MM 100%. I have not seen a pitcher of his follow him 100% yet.

[paul5150]

I bet you throw slower then me lol

I'm not going to comment any more for your lack of knowledge how to throw a ball with power.

You are useless to this site, just leave

I don't care what muscles I will throw harder then most MM pitchers so that is my proof.

Im pretty sure you just said you threw harder than him.

[RIstar]

I was joking lol but I do think from video I have seen that it looks like I throw harder then alot of his students that I have seen.

[TG Coach]

Ristar,

Because "Traditional thinking people" are still blowing up the youth.
Older people can pick and choose their path.

Don't you think this statement is a little extreme?

[Baseball gLove]

I have only seen one kid at our fields blow up his arm. He threw lots of curves and sliders at 13 years of age. This kid would pitch 3 times a week for 2 teams. He would throw 5 innings on Saturday and then 6 innings on Sunday. He also pitched year round. When I heard he was hurt I told his dad he should not pitch for at least year. Less than a month after I spoke to his dad, I heard the kid separated his growth plates while pitching. He is no longer playing baseball.

[son who is sidearm]

ok i have just a questions since i am not a wiz with the video thing and watching the video of sparks throwing (many times over and over). could the reason that sparks have a control problem is that their head is pulled down and away from the target by their motion. i think i am seeing it especially when it shows the front view of sparks throwing.

[035971]

how hard you throw with MM mechanics?

I am 13 and I can throw high 60's low 70's. I have never had a sore arm.

[Go Cardinals]

I am 13 and I can throw high 60's low 70's. I have never had a sore arm.

You can almost throw as hard as ristar...:rofl:

sorry, that was mean...:rofl:

[Charger567]

I bet you throw slower then me lol

I'm not going to comment any more for your lack of knowledge how to throw a ball with power.

You are useless to this site, just leave

I don't care what muscles I will throw harder then most MM pitchers so that is my proof.

How much of this post is a joke? That has to be the most childish, ignorant and hypocritical post I've seen on this forum.

You are calling him ignorant on power pitching even though he throws 10 MPH harder than you... Then you tell a very active contributor he's useless and to leave with not an ounce of support behind you.

Don't know if this is a joke, but it got me riled up. You are 15, and as people have said, have never made a varsity team and you are belittling people who clearly understand much more than you about pitching mechanics.

If this whole thing is a joke, I apologize, but it is not easy to detect sarcasm over the internet.

[Dirtberry]

TG Coach,

Don't you think this statement is a little true?

No, 150 years of dead arms is significant!

[fastbal95]

Brett,

Just because you havent seen someone throw hard using Doc's mechanics doesnt mean its not true. I have already told you about Dan Robinson. He hit 95 at the Dodgers open tryout camp a few years ago. If you dont want to believe it, thats fine.

Again Brett, a scientific law is taken as absolute and true. If they are not, then ideas that are formed using these laws would not be true, such as gravity. And we all know gravity to be very very real and true. Do you really understand this? If we hold a scientific law to be ABSOLUTE and TRUE, then it only needs to be proven on paper, BEACAUSE we already hold the laws to be TRUE. This isnt that hard to comprehend.

You say that only Doc says that we use Newton's Laws more efficiently. How about you tell me how you interpret Newton's Laws related to baseball pitching then? Or find someone who is knowledgable about Physics, like I said before, someone who has a degree or an advanced degree and also understands pitching. Then ask them how they interpret Newton's Laws related to baseball pitching. I am seriously curious though how you would interpret Newton's Laws how they pertain to baseball pitching.

Would you say that NASA's "interpretations" of Netwons Laws are off? I wouldnt. They wouldnt be able to get the space shuttle off of the ground if they reverse one of the rockets to face the other way, would they? No. Is this really that hard to understand or am I missing something here Brett?\



TG Coach,

That 12 and 13 year olds are starting to need TJ surgery, I would not consider Dirt's comments to be "extreme". It doesnt take a rocket scientist to understand that the "traditional" motion is causing more and more injuries at younger and younger ages.

[beemax]

Just because you havent seen someone throw hard using Doc's mechanics doesnt mean its not true. I have already told you about Dan Robinson. He hit 95 at the Dodgers open tryout camp a few years ago. If you dont want to believe it, thats fine.

Even if it is true, does it disprove traditional mechanics as a way of throwing harder that MM mechanics?

I would be willing to bet that if Dan Robinson threw 95 the Dodgers would have signed him on the spot. Did they?

I would also be willing to bet that if he still throws 95 today he would have a job pitching. Does he?

How about being able to locate and command your pitches? I know you asked me to ask doc about this, and I will, but what do you think about it as it pertains to MM mechanics? Is there proof of anyone being able to locate or command their pitches better after working with Doc?

Again Brett, a scientific law is taken as absolute and true. If they are not, then ideas that are formed using these laws would not be true, such as gravity. And we all know gravity to be very very real and true. Do you really understand this? If we hold a scientific law to be ABSOLUTE and TRUE, then it only needs to be proven on paper, BEACAUSE we already hold the laws to be TRUE. This isnt that hard to comprehend.

Yes Joe I really understand this. And from what I have seen, many of Doc's guys use gravity very well...but for the wrong reasons as it pertains to pitching.

Again you act like just because Doc says it, it must be true!

Doc needs to show proof that he uses these laws better than "traditional pitchers" to have any shot at the rest of us (99% of baseball people) believing his motion is superior!

You say that only Doc says that we use Newton's Laws more efficiently. How about you tell me how you interpret Newton's Laws related to baseball pitching then? Or find someone who is knowledgable about Physics, like I said before, someone who has a degree or an advanced degree and also understands pitching. Then ask them how they interpret Newton's Laws related to baseball pitching. I am seriously curious though how you would interpret Newton's Laws how they pertain to baseball pitching.

Joe do you think all a pitcher needs is to follow Newton's three laws as best he can? Are his three laws the only rules that pertains to pitching your best?

Would you say that NASA's "interpretations" of Netwons Laws are off? I wouldnt. They wouldnt be able to get the space shuttle off of the ground if they reverse one of the rockets to face the other way, would they? No. Is this really that hard to understand or am I missing something here Brett?

With all due respect Joe, NASA has PROOF. They have put rockets facing the earth, put people inside, and sent them off to space.

Why would I say that NASA violates these laws? They have absolute proof that they used these laws to get men into space.

I don't see the relationship between NASA using Newton's laws and getting men in space and Doc creating a delivery that he "believes" is superior when it comes to velocity, spin, and "injurious flaws."

ONE HAS PROOF, THE OTHER DOESN'T.

See the difference?

Now I don't see what is so hard to understand about that, Joe.

[jima]

Brett,

Just because you havent seen someone throw hard using Doc's mechanics doesnt mean its not true. I have already told you about Dan Robinson. He hit 95 at the Dodgers open tryout camp a few years ago. If you dont want to believe it, thats fine.

Again Brett, a scientific law is taken as absolute and true. If they are not, then ideas that are formed using these laws would not be true, such as gravity. And we all know gravity to be very very real and true. Do you really understand this? If we hold a scientific law to be ABSOLUTE and TRUE, then it only needs to be proven on paper, BEACAUSE we already hold the laws to be TRUE. This isnt that hard to comprehend.

You say that only Doc says that we use Newton's Laws more efficiently. How about you tell me how you interpret Newton's Laws related to baseball pitching then? Or find someone who is knowledgable about Physics, like I said before, someone who has a degree or an advanced degree and also understands pitching. Then ask them how they interpret Newton's Laws related to baseball pitching. I am seriously curious though how you would interpret Newton's Laws how they pertain to baseball pitching.

Would you say that NASA's "interpretations" of Netwons Laws are off? I wouldnt. They wouldnt be able to get the space shuttle off of the ground if they reverse one of the rockets to face the other way, would they? No. Is this really that hard to understand or am I missing something here Brett?\



TG Coach,

That 12 and 13 year olds are starting to need TJ surgery, I would not consider Dirt's comments to be "extreme". It doesnt take a rocket scientist to understand that the "traditional" motion is causing more and more injuries at younger and younger ages.

FBall, my kid is a 14yo pitcher, so I pay alot of attention to the pitching threads. I spent about an hour on Marshall's site last nite looking at the motions of the various pitchers. You couldn't tell velocity, but the ball movement looked good. Here are my problems with what you preach and what I saw on the site: 1. there was very little deception in the motions, that is, the batter could see the ball being released very clearly. 2. all the ptichers were off balance after delivery and definitely not in an athletic position to either field a batted ball or protect themselves. 3. there was excessive head movement, necessary I guess in order to have a direct arm path. 4. there was no horizontal movement to the curveball. 5. there is no apparent evidence of how you would pitch from the stretch. Finally, if there is no track record for MM's motion over say 10 yrs with hundreds of pitchers, how do we know that MM's motion will not cause injury? Just saying so shouldn't count. jima

[kylebee]

I bet you throw slower then me lol

I'm not going to comment any more for your lack of knowledge how to throw a ball with power.

You are useless to this site, just leave

I don't care what muscles I will throw harder then most MM pitchers so that is my proof.

Comments like this do not help your cause at all. Joe is not "worthless" to this site; many people are interested in Marshall's teachings. He is arrogant and comes off as annoying, like most of Marshall's students, but you have done nothing in your life to warrant your attitude.

[kylebee]

IMO I don't think it can create greater velocity. I never said he wasn't throwing harder then me but he isn't going to throw hard if he listens and follows MM 100%. I have not seen a pitcher of his follow him 100% yet.

Really? Hmm...

I bet you throw slower then me lol

[TG Coach]

Brett,
TG Coach,

That 12 and 13 year olds are starting to need TJ surgery, I would not consider Dirt's comments to be "extreme". It doesnt take a rocket scientist to understand that the "traditional" motion is causing more and more injuries at younger and younger ages.

It's not the mechanics that are killing kids arms. It's too much pitching on too many teams. Besides, how can you say Marshall's mechanics saves arms. Pitchers who use his mechanics aren't successful enough to stay in the game.

[Go Cardinals]

Comments like this do not help your cause at all. Joe is not "worthless" to this site; many people are interested in Marshall's teachings. He is arrogant and comes off as annoying, like most of Marshall's students, but you have done nothing in your life to warrant your attitude.

I agree... I enjoy Fastball around here. He's a good guy.


It's not the mechanics that are killing kids arms. It's too much pitching on too many teams. Besides, how can you say Marshall's mechanics saves arms. Pitchers who use his mechanics aren't successful enough to stay in the game.

Thats what all of this MM stuff has got me thinking of. I don't see that many people around me with arm problems. The ones that do, there are good reasons for. I am talking about my level. I had elbow soreness, because I threw too much too soon. People over do it. Or they try to throw to hard, or they throw to many curves or something.

I just wonder, through the test of time, how will MM pitchers hold up? I mean couldn't every muscle eventually get hurt? I don't think that anything is invincible.


That said, I was messing around pitching with MM mechanics. They obviously aren't 100%, but it was pretty effective. With the pronating, I got some pretty nasty tailing action. My arm felt good. Actually it felt great. I wasn't throwing too hard. Since I don't really take pitching to seriously (compared to batting), I am going to pitch for using MM upper body.

[fastbal95]

Jima,

1. You cannot tell deception from watching a video. If you talked to any one of the guys I faced last summer, or the umpires for that matter, they would tell you it is very hard to pick up the ball from our motion.


2. I had no problems fielding any balls that came my way. We are taught to have the glove right beside our head. Some do not do this. It takes a while to get used to do that instead of pulling your glove arm dwon and into your body like most "traditional" pitchers do.

3. The "head movement" hasnt given me any problems throwing strikes.

4. A curveball is not supposed to have horizontal movement. Our curveballs either break 12-6, straight down, or they actually have what is called over spin. This is where they actually break back towards the glove arm side. Extremely hard to hit.

5. With our motion we need no "stretch". However, it is possible to throw from the "stretch". It is not hard at all.

Finally, Doc has trained over 200 pitchers. None have ever had arm problems because of the training or the way we throw. Actually, a lot of guys who have come to Doc were hurt when they came to him, and after working with him, threw better than ever. Doc rehabbed 3 guys from the Cin Reds who because of injuries were told that they would never be able to pitch again. After working with Doc, they were pitcing better than ever. They were promised that they could pitch in rookie ball after working with Doc, but the Reds switched GM's and they ended the "experiement". The guys were not allowed to pitch like they were told.

I myself had a torn labrum and was told that I needed surgery. I can tell you, I did NOT need it. I throw everyday, pain free, better than I did when I threw "traditionally".

Doc's throwing 206 innings as a closer should also say something I think. He is the only reliever, I believe, to ever qualify for the ERA title.

[fastbal95]

Brett,

I never said a pitcher could not throw hard using the "traditional" motion. They might be able to throw hard, BUT they also get hurt. Look at the track records of pitchers since the invention of the game. Who is it going to first this year??? Well, lets see, Schilling is hurt already and he hasnt even pitched in a game yet. A guy from the Pirates, Josh Shortslef is already hurt after throwing one bullpen. Saw it on MiLB.com. Im sure there will be more once Spring Training gets going a little more. Let us know how many of the Nationals guys get hurt the Spring Training; how many shoulder and elbow surgeries there are. I would love to know. I think in 2005, my first spring training, we had at least seven shoulder and elbow surgeries.

If you would be willing to bet, you would lose. They took one look at his motion and said no way, even though he hit 95. The guy running the camp said dont pay attention to these guys, theyre that Drs. guys.

Dan doesnt want to play baseball anymore. He would rather golf everyday with his dad and clean golf carts at his country club.

I can locate and command my pitches just fine. You have to remember that location and command come with time. When guys train with Doc, they are learning a completely new way to throw. They usually arent going to be locating and commanding all their pitchers right away. Just like guys in pro ball who get turned into pitchers dont locate and command right away.

Hilarious comment Brett! I cant wait to throw to you! I still dont think you understand it though, sorry.

Again, what are your interpretations as Newton's Three Laws and how they apply to pitching? Im really interested in hearing what you have to say.

Or do you have no clue at all?

The "proof" is here in Z-hills. You will be very close when you make your drive to Viera.

Well lets see, Newton's Three Laws are the Laws of Motion. When you throw a baseball, the ball is in MOTION. So yes, a pitcher needs to follow these three laws as best as they can in order to throw the highest quality pitches possible.

So would you agree then that if NASA turned one of their rockets around, the shuttle wouldnt get off the ground? I hope so. You see, turning the rocket around would be applying force towards space. Towards where the shuttle wants to go. When pitchers stick or stomp their foot into the ground using the "traditional" motion, they apply force towards home plate, in the direction they want the ball to go.

I hope you can see how these two things relate Brett. Its quite obvious to me. It doesnt take a rocket scientist to figure this out though.

Because you say their is no proof doesnt make is true. I see "proof" every single day when we workout. You do not, you are not here.

Do you know who Galileo was? If you dont, you should look into his life. He was called a heratic by the Catholic Church because he said the earth revolved around the sun. Everyone assumed the the sun revolved around the earth. His "proof" apparently wasnt good enough for 99 percent of everyone else, BUT you know what, he turned out to be right. Interesting. I know Dirt is training young kids who are dominating baseball out in California. Is that not proof????????????

[fastbal95]

TG,

If its not the mechanics then how to you explain all the injuries in high school college, and especially pro ball?

Are all of these injuries related to overuse also???????????

Are all the pro ball injuries overuse ones???????????????????

[Dirtberry]

TG Coach,

“It's not the mechanics that are killing kids arms. It's too much pitching on too many teams.”
This sounds like the ASMI assumption that was the recommendation to LL of America that is a grossly misleading statement.
Again, if you have a throwing mechanic that does not cause injuries then injuries are caused by mechanics. It does not take over use to injure your arm with the traditional mechanic it can happen at any time, even when your arm is healthy, It is also true that the traditional mechanic leads to more and more injury until failure. This is when an over use claim can be used. I agree that children should not be throwing more than 3 months a year but they are going to do it and even these shorter period players blow up their arms with the traditional mechanic.

“Pitchers who use his mechanics aren't successful enough to stay in the game.”
That’s a bold statement that has no merit, I really doubt that you have even witnessed a Marshall pitcher, how could you have any opinion about any performance outcome?

[JK-CA]

TG Coach,

“Pitchers who use his mechanics aren't successful enough to stay in the game.”
That’s a bold statement that has no merit, I really doubt that you have even witnessed a Marshall pitcher, how could you have any opinion about any performance outcome?

I'm not so sure this statement is without merit. I have yet to see any of Marshall's students do anything significant in pro baseball.

I am also unclear as to why the hype with Marshall's stuff on this board. Using his methods it is damn near impossible to get into baseball at a high level. First, you must complete his training, which takes a significant amount of time when most kids still playing are trying to make a college squad. No one has mastered his delivery, according to him. So if no one has mastered it after years of training, how can you be sure you will be able to do anything close?

If you do in fact complete the training and get the delivery down pat, you still need to get noticed/signed using a motion no one has ever seen used in pro baseball. And then if you do get signed, you actually have to get outs consistently.

Too many factors outweigh preventing an injury that may or may not happen.

If you don't want to get hurt, don't throw.

[Deemax]

3. The "head movement" hasnt given me any problems throwing strikes.


Using MM delivery you walked 19 guys in 28 innings this past summer. This works out to be 6.12 walks per nine innings.

Using "traditional" mechanics in the NYP league you walked 26 in 75 innings. This works out to 3.12 walks per nine innings.

The amount of walks you give up per nine innings doubled. Does walking twice as many guys relate to "hasnt given me any problems throwing strikes."?

5. With our motion we need no "stretch".
Everyone needs a stretch. The windup is ideal, but a great deal of time a runner is on base.

[fastbal95]

Dee,

Whenever I have brought up my stats over the summer, eveyone here has told me that it "doesnt count" because I am an expro pitching to college kids. First of all, there were plenty of other ex professionals playing in this league. Also, you cannot talk about what you perceive as a lack of success (walks) without also acknowledging my success in this league, understand? You want to talk about my walks, go for it, then lets talk about my hits given up, my strikeouts, and my ERA.

2.28 ERA in the NYPL, good for 4th in the league.

1. something ERA last summer. I also gave up far less hits.

Now if I had given up the same amount of average of hits, you would expect my ERA to go up, yet it did not. Why? I gave up 62 hits in 75 innings for an average of 7.44 hits per 9 innings. Now, last summer, I gave up, I think, 14 hits in 28 innings. That is an average of 4.5 hits per 9 innings. Are you following so far?

Secondly, wouldnt you think someone who has a lot of strikeouts throws a lot of strikes? I would. In 28 innings I struck out, I believe, 42 batters in 28 innings. That goes for an average of 13.5 strikeouts per 9 innings. Sounds like a lot to me. I must have thrown a lot of strikes for guys to either, swing and miss, or take a called third strike looking.

Like I said, I didnt have any problems throwing strikes.

Ive already stated we can throw out of a set position. It just isnt "needed".

[Drill]

Best Pitching Coach Ever?


He lives not to far from me, Ray Heatwole

One of the best ole war horses out there to teach pitching on all levels from 7years old on up past college.


IMHO,


drill


PS At least I think this thread was asking the above question or was this a discussion that bleed over into this thread.

[beemax]

I never said a pitcher could not throw hard using the "traditional" motion. They might be able to throw hard, BUT they also get hurt. Look at the track records of pitchers since the invention of the game. Who is it going to first this year??? Well, lets see, Schilling is hurt already and he hasnt even pitched in a game yet. A guy from the Pirates, Josh Shortslef is already hurt after throwing one bullpen. Saw it on MiLB.com. Im sure there will be more once Spring Training gets going a little more. Let us know how many of the Nationals guys get hurt the Spring Training; how many shoulder and elbow surgeries there are. I would love to know. I think in 2005, my first spring training, we had at least seven shoulder and elbow surgeries.

Listen Joe, I have already made a post a long time ago stating that I believe Doc is on to something with regards to a delivery that does not cause injury. His heart is in the right place, no doubt, but I am still not convinced of any of the claims he makes when comparing his motion to the "traditional motion."

If you could prevent injuries, that would be fantastic, but pitchers will do anything to get outs. If Doc ever proves that 1.) his motion causes 0 injuries, and 2.) his motion gets guys out better than the "traditional" motion without a doubt, then maybe it will catch on.

IMO, however, it won't.

If you would be willing to bet, you would lose. They took one look at his motion and said no way, even though he hit 95. The guy running the camp said dont pay attention to these guys, theyre that Drs. guys.

Dan doesnt want to play baseball anymore. He would rather golf everyday with his dad and clean golf carts at his country club.

I guess I would lose the bet because of the conspiracy against Doc, right?

I can locate and command my pitches just fine. You have to remember that location and command come with time. When guys train with Doc, they are learning a completely new way to throw. They usually arent going to be locating and commanding all their pitchers right away. Just like guys in pro ball who get turned into pitchers dont locate and command right away.

I don't see how you can make that statement about your location and command when you throw into a net everyday. Just my opinion. If location and command were high on Doc's list I would venture a guess that he would have you guys throw to catchers.

Again you told me to ask Doc and I will.

Again, what are your interpretations as Newton's Three Laws and how they apply to pitching? Im really interested in hearing what you have to say.

Or do you have no clue at all?

First law:

Every object in a state of uniform motion tends to remain in that state of motion unless an external force is applied to it.

Pretty self explanatory. If you don't make any effort to put external force on the baseball it will not move.

Second law:

The rate of change of momentum of a body is proportional to the resultant force acting on the body and is in the same direction.


I don't see how your motion uses this more effectively. In my interpretation of this law, a pitcher must create as much momentum as possible to create the most velocity (since this is what this law applies to-acceleration). I don't see how talking a walking step towards home plate off of the mound creates the most momentum or force possible.

Traditional pitchers do NOT start to apply force to the baseball in the X coordinate direction with respect to home plate till AFTER their glove foot lands. Why is this? Because when their glove foot lands the baseball is either moving backwards, OR not moving at all, stopped still.

Do you have video evidence of this? I just looked at videos of Maddux, Verlander, and Lincecum and saw the above statement to be totally false when it applies to them. The ball definitely hasn't stopped moving and isn't moving backwards when their foot lands.

Using Mike Marshall mechanics, pitchers start to apply force to the baseball in the X coordinate with respect to home plate when their arm gets up to driveline height. They continue to apply force until release. Their driveline is longer than traditional pitchers. This means that they apply force to the baseball for a longer time period than traditional pitchers

You claim that MM mechanics allow you to apply force for a longer time period that "traditional" pitchers. I say, so what? Lets say I walk the ball to home plate from the mound, never stopping until I reach the catcher (or net). Aren't I applying force to the ball for a longer period than you?

To me its not how long you apply the force but the amount of force you can apply.

Third Law:

For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.

Also pretty self explanatory.

The "proof" is here in Z-hills. You will be very close when you make your drive to Viera.

That seems to be the only place where there is "proof."

Well lets see, Newton's Three Laws are the Laws of Motion. When you throw a baseball, the ball is in MOTION. So yes, a pitcher needs to follow these three laws as best as they can in order to throw the highest quality pitches possible.

To me, a quality pitch is not only one that can be thrown as hard as possible or spun as best it can, but one that can be located and commanded. Newton's Laws don't deal with location and command, IMO.

I hope you can see how these two things relate Brett. Its quite obvious to me. It doesnt take a rocket scientist to figure this out though.

Again with the digs at my intelligence. Just because I don't agree with your "pitchers stomping their foot in the ground" analogy makes me "not a rocket scientist? Cmon Joe.

Because you say their is no proof doesnt make is true. I see "proof" every single day when we workout. You do not, you are not here.

Joe, don't you need proof outside of z-hills? Or is throwing into a net everyday there good enough for you?

Do you know who Galileo was? If you dont, you should look into his life. He was called a heratic by the Catholic Church because he said the earth revolved around the sun. Everyone assumed the the sun revolved around the earth. His "proof" apparently wasnt good enough for 99 percent of everyone else, BUT you know what, he turned out to be right. Interesting. I know Dirt is training young kids who are dominating baseball out in California. Is that not proof????????????

Now you are bringing religion into this? :rofl:Yes I know who Galileo was. I really don't care what Dirt is allegedly doing. Have you seen his kids pitch in games in California?

Why do you insist on me believing in something just because you or Doc or Lon say so?

[Deemax]

Are you following so far?

Yeah, your comparing your NYPL stats to your mens league stats....Not exactly apples to apples. More like apples to horse apples.

Like I said, I didnt have any problems throwing strikes
The stats I posted with your walks per nine innings doubling are right on. If you didnt have any problems throwing strikes last summer, then you REALLY didnt have problems throwing strikes as a pro, since you walked half as many guys per nine.

Ive already stated we can throw out of a set position. It just isnt "needed".

I disagree. I timed Sparks to the plate with MMs current delivery. His fastball was 1.75 seconds, and his curve was 2.00. I tried to time you, but Im having problems watching videos from docs site... Needless to say 1.75, and 2 flat dont give the catcher a fair opportunity to throw out the runner. The stetch is "needed."

How much velo is lost from the set position in MMs delivery.

[Dirtberry]

I teach my kids not to throw to the catcher because they are often times lazy and are never in the correct place, throw to an area and the catcher better be in the right place. I teach the kids to be assertive and to direct the catcher where they want them and nothing else is acceptable. Coaches should not be calling pitches it creates non-competitive pitching minds. For 30 years I’ve used thick white strings set against a black background. The pitchers learn to be area exacting this way. They all gain tremendous command. I have never used a catcher.

[Go Cardinals]

I teach my kids not to throw to the catcher because they are often times lazy and are never in the correct place, throw to an area and the catcher better be in the right place. I teach the kids to be assertive and to direct the catcher where they want them and nothing else is acceptable. Coaches should not be calling pitches it creates non-competitive pitching minds. For 30 years I’ve used thick white strings set against a black background. The pitchers learn to be area exacting this way. They all gain tremendous command. I have never used a catcher.

Lets see some video

Lets see some data ... ie results, how are all of your pitchers doing? Show video than stats... I want to see how perfect they are in the MM mechanics.

[Baseball gLove]

I teach my kids not to throw to the catcher because they are often times lazy and are never in the correct place, throw to an area and the catcher better be in the right place. I teach the kids to be assertive and to direct the catcher where they want them and nothing else is acceptable. Coaches should not be calling pitches it creates non-competitive pitching minds. For 30 years I’ve used thick white strings set against a black background. The pitchers learn to be area exacting this way. They all gain tremendous command. I have never used a catcher.

There are a lot of baseball players that are tremendously great at practice. But it's what they do during game time that matters.

[Dirtberry]

Out here all the teams at every level started official practice. I tell all HS and College pitchers good-bye for 4 to 6 months. All 8 full Marshall kids got scrimmage innings over the weekend and we saw the same old problems with the coaches, 80% of them will only call two pitches instead of all 4. This is another reason why pitchers should learn to call their own pitches.
One 12 year old has 9 straight K’s in two scrimmages although stats are irrelevant for Children. His father’s best friend who has his own fishing show on ESPN is going to video him in a couple of weeks. I will try to get it and bring it here if possible.

Jake, What format plays best here?

[Dirtberry]

Drill,

Is that a fixed ball on the end of that bashnewel or a spinning; ball spin indicator?

[Dirtberry]

"That seems to be the only place where there is "proof.""

Thanx Bee

[Pitcher1983]

I tried to pitch the way MM says.
Well actually i took the part about pronation and arm movement and put these things in my traditional pitching motion. Here's my opinion:
NO WAY THAT YOU CAN THROW AS HARD AS YOU'D DO WITH THE TRADITIONAL MECHANICS, with the MM program.
I think that if a pitcher is going to loose 7-8 mph by throwing with MM motion, from the efficacy point of wiev, that will compensate (in negative) the increase of movement of the ball, so there's not going to be a great change in pitchers' performances, maybe they could even get worse as the hitters get used to the new pitching.
But the thing that pitching that way is safer for the arm, that's true to me.
I tried to get in the MM motion because i had elbow hyperextension and i had pain whenever i tried to deliver the ball at the same old way. Big pronation didn't hurt my elbow, but dropped my velocity!
Then i got tired of throwing slower than i did, and stopped pitching at all for 6 months waiting for total recovery. I got back on the field pitching the old way but i couldn't! I couldn't because the pronation thing was now acquired and i can't change it anymore, but the arm movement and the motion are a totally traditional motion, i simply add some pronation at the end. Now i got to my usual velocity, i have to be checked with the radar but i think i'm gonna hit the 88-89-90 this year, i expect to have loss some velocity because my ball sinks a lot and when i practice long toss the ball cuts meters and meters on the right (i'm right handed). I'm doing the Ron Wolforth programme, medicine ball, tubing exercises, weighted balls (from overweighted to underweighted), long toss, mechanics. I feel a lot better now, i feel that i'm using every muscle of my body and i feel in good shape.
I think that a lot of people evend in professional baseball get hurt for bad mechanics (see oleary), and not because they are pitching with the old traditional motion. there are kids like clemens, maddux, schilling, that have got injuried very rarely in their careers because they had superior mechanics. And it's normal that pitching hurts people, that's maybe the most stressful sport motion that you can find! I got injuried 'cause i did the towel drill the wrong way, but doing the wolforth program I feel my elbow and my shoulder very strong and safe. How many professional pitchers do exercises with medicine ball, tubing like wolforth says, weighted balls..etc etc? i think a few of them. MM is doing some research, i'd let him doing his research, baseball has had great and healthy pitchers for decades.

[Drill]

Drill,

Is that a fixed ball on the end of that bashnewel or a spinning; ball spin indicator?

It is called a mitt masher got one from Akadema. Use it to break in gloves/mitts, plus it helps form a pocket.

Its made one piece and turned on a lathe.

I would sit in front of the TV and break in my sons catcher mitt and infield gloves. But again the best way to break in a glove is catching with it.

It looks like it would make a good weapon to smack someone with across the head. It just feels good and the right size(looks like a mace minus the spikes). Not that my son would get violent, but I see no reason for him to carry it in his bag, he's got enough stuff to tote around being a catcher and playing other positions.

I think when I bought it it was $15.00

drill

[fastbal95]

Brett,

I didnt say anything about a conspricay. I just mentioned what actually happened when they went to the tryout.

Do you not think its possible to throw with location and command if you throw into a net??? If I can throw the ball where I want to, and hit the same spot repeatedly, then I have location and command with a net, pretty simple.

With regard to the video that you watched? Was it 30 fps video or something like high speed film, 500 fps. I have seen 500 fps and seen what I have described.

How does a "traditional" pitcher create momentum then? Thanks

For the third law, that is not an interpretation. Pretty self explanatory means absolutely nothing. I want to know how you think "traditional" pitchers do this, not just say pretty self explanatory.

It wasnt a "dig" at your intelligence, although I do think it is lacking at times. It was a joke about rocket scientists, you know we were discussing NASA and space shuttles, lol. I guess you didnt get it.

Im not bringing religion into this, if you want I can though, lol.

Did you take your Dad's word at whatever he said?

[fastbal95]

Dee,

I think you were the one that started comparing my summer stats last year to my NYPL stats, werent you????????????????

You got it. I didnt have any problems throwing strikes in Brooklyn either.

How did you time Sparks? Just wondering what method you used.

How much velocity is lost? I dont know if any is. It would depend on how much the driveline gets shortened by using a "set" position.

I see guys who use the "traditional" motion who are not able to throw as fast out of their set positions. When Rudy Seanez came to Doc, he could throw 94 out of the windup but only 88 out of the stretch. This is what I was told.

[fastbal95]

Pitcher1983,

There are some questions that need to be asked first.

Did you just try to throw Doc's way or have you trained with the wrist weights and iron balls.

One needs a certain level of strength to throw Doc's way. You cannot just pick up a ball and expect to pitch well using his mechanics if you do not train. You do not have the strength that you need to have.

Schilling has superior mechanics???? Thats why he has had shoulder surgery twice in his career and may need it again now, right? Oh ya, and his velocity is nowhere near where it was a few years ago, and I know he has aged and that may play a role, but he has lost more than just a few mph. And Clemens actually changed the way he applied force to the baseball when he went to Toronto, he straightened out his driveline and is now able to apply force in a better way. He also, alledgedly, has been using PED's though too, who knows.

Baseball has had great and healthy pitchers for decades???????? Are you kidding me? The ratio between pitchers who have been injured, on the DL, or have had suregery to pitchers who have been injury free during their caeer is huge. Many many many more injured pitchers than not. And Im just talking about pitching arm injuries, not any other injuries.

You really have no clue.

[Deemax]

I think you were the one that started comparing my summer stats last year to my NYPL stats, werent you????????????????
In relation to balls and strikes Joe... I hope you can understand that you walked twice as many guys per nine with Doc's stuff.

You got it. I didnt have any problems throwing strikes in Brooklyn either.
Yep, half as many as you walked in chicago.

How did you time Sparks? Just wondering what method you used.
With a stopwatch.

It would depend on how much the driveline gets shortened by using a "set" position.

Driveline is worthless.

I see guys who use the "traditional" motion who are not able to throw as fast out of their set positions. When Rudy Seanez came to Doc, he could throw 94 out of the windup but only 88 out of the stretch. This is what I was told.
What you were told was wrong.

Did you take your Dad's word at whatever he said?
Nope.

Joe and Lon, you have no shame.

[fastbal95]

Dee,

I understand that I walked more. Can you understand that my ERA was actually lower. I pitched better. You can never walk anyone, but if you give up runs you are horsesh** and who cares.

With a stopwatch??? Give me a break, that is nowhere near reliable Dee.

Driveline is worthless huh? Care to explain that.

If what I was told was wrong, then would you care to elaborate on why. This is what Rudy told Doc, from what Doc tells me.

Are we not allowed to ever discuss your father because he is dead???? Is it taboo or something? There was never a hint of disrespect or anything. I am truly sorry for your loss. Your brother asked why should he believe, Doc by taking his word for it. I asked if he took your Dad's word for it on things. I see no problem with my question.

[beemax]

Do you not think its possible to throw with location and command if you throw into a net??? If I can throw the ball where I want to, and hit the same spot repeatedly, then I have location and command with a net, pretty simple.

I'm wondering, if you can throw the ball where you want to, why go through the trouble of walking 19 in 28 innings? Why not walk 0?

With regard to the video that you watched? Was it 30 fps video or something like high speed film, 500 fps. I have seen 500 fps and seen what I have described.

If you have 500fps video of these guys, I would love to see it. Mine was 30fps.

How does a "traditional" pitcher create momentum then? Thanks

By reverse rotation and leading with their hip, a la Lincecum, Seaver, Maddux, Ryan, etc.

Also by being able to separate the hips from the upper body, just like hitter with power do. If the hips begin to open while upper body stays closed, a stretch will be created, like this guy does.

http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Pitching/Images/Examples/Example_HipsRotatingBeforeShoulders_TimLincecum_20 07_035.jpg

He is 5'11" 165lbs, and throws nearly 100mph. He is the poster boy for how to properly create momentum, IMO.

For the third law, that is not an interpretation. Pretty self explanatory means absolutely nothing. I want to know how you think "traditional" pitchers do this, not just say pretty self explanatory.

Ok, here's my crack at it. For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction, right? You say pitchers "stomp" their foot into the ground, creating all their force towards home plate. How did that force get created? By reverse rotation.

Does all that force that goes into the ground get reciprocated? For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction, right? I believe that this so-called "force" you speak of gets reciprocated and comes out of the pitchers hand.

It is much like snapping a towel or a whip. All of the momentum and force comes out in the tip of the whip, right? That is my belief as it pertains to the "traditional" motion.

You say that:

Traditional pitchers can apply force using their pitching foot.

By reverse rotating and using that force from the pitching foot, "traditional pitchers" apply more force than Marshall pitchers do. MM pitchers simply step straight at the plate, no push off the rubber. This creates less power, IMO.

Just a hitter's point of view here.

It wasnt a "dig" at your intelligence, although I do think it is lacking at times.

It wasn't a dig at my intelligence, but that definitely was. Have I ever called your intelligence into question? Just because we disagree doesn't make one side dumber than the other.

It was a joke about rocket scientists, you know we were discussing NASA and space shuttles, lol. I guess you didnt get it.

Yeah, really hilarious.

Did you take your Dad's word at whatever he said?

Of course not, but why do you even ask? I do know that when it came to baseball, however, he always had evidence to back up something he said.

[beemax]

Joe, I have a video you might like to see

[fastbal95]

Brett,

Well lets see, when I first came down here I couldnt put the ball wherever I wanted, but everyday that I throw I get better and better. Just like Im sure when you start to hit again for ball you cannot do whatever you want to the ball, but as you get back into it, you get better and better and are able to hit the ball pretty much wherever you want in BP, right?

I'll speak with Doc about the film and see what we can do.

Your link doesnt work for some reason, it says its invalid. I'll just take a guess and say its the kid from the Giants, right?

I think he's a great pitcher. And Im not saying he's gonna get hurt, I hope he doesnt, I hope he has a great career. BUT, Prior used to be the "poster" boy for pitching "perfect" and look what happened to him. Does anyone talk about him having perfect mechanics now?????? No. And Im sure that there was someone before him who people talked about and got hurt and fell off the radar. And prolly someone before him, etc...

So the force from the ground travels up from the feet and into the hand then into the ball? Is that what you are saying? Also, what direction would this force be moving towards then? Home plate?

By reverse rotating, the only thing pitchers do is create more force to the side of their body, not towards home plate. The more reverse rotation, the more their arm is going to fly out laterally away from their body.

When you actually see one of us pitch in person, that is stand in or actually hit off of us, I think youre opinion would change.

Brett, I said at times I find your intelligence lacking not because you disagree with me, but because it seems like you dont really understand some of the stuff we are discussing, thats all.

Sorry my humor isnt up to your standards, lol.

Well Im glad you didnt. I meant when it came to baseball. Doc has "evidence" to back up his claims. You just need to come and see it.

[fastbal95]

Brett,

Whats the video?



Here is a post from ASMI's website. I thought it would extremely interesting and pertinent to our discussion:



I am now 48 years old. I was an old worn out college pitcher with bone chips in my elbow, damage to my ulnar nerve, an old tear in my teres minor, and 2 years ago, I couldn't even throw batting practice without bad pain.

I happened acros Doc's website about 2 years ago. I got his 2006 dvd, and taught myself his pitching motion. What a difference!!!

I throw at what I would call game intensity EVERY day now...at least 40 pitches. I also throw batting practice for several teams. My longest stint was last year I threw 1185 fairly high intensity batting practice pitches to the high school team and American Legion tryouts over a 4 day period.

Nobody could believe ANYBODY could throw that many pitches without pain, let alone a 47 year old guy like me.

My 15 year old son has been on Doc's program for about 100 days now. Every day he throws the 6 lb. iron ball at full intensity 70 times - 420 lbs. He does 30 wrist flips with the 6 lb ball - 180lbs. He works the 10lb wrist weights at max intensity 25 times - 250 lbs. Then he throws 60 game intensity baseball pitches.

That's 850 lbs of iron at full intensity and about 19 lbs of full intensity baseballs every day.

High School baseball tryouts are Monday next week, and the Varsity Baseball Coach has warned every pitcher it won't be easy. He said each pitcher will throw 40 game intensity pitches for 3 days straight. Wow...a whole 13 lbs of baseballs!!!

We went home and laughed. But guess what...all the other pitchers are scared. They are worried they won't make it through the tryout because they know they are not ready to throw 3 days in a row.

By the way, my son used to have elbow pain. Last year his fastball velocity averaged about 75 mph. Right now, he is averaging 86 to 89 mph. His Pronated Curve is a real hammer! He has no pain. He just keeps getting stronger and stronger.

I have seen what Doc's program does first hand, and experienced it for myself. NOBODY is going to convince me what he teaches does not get results. I know it does.

[beemax]

Hopefully the clip comes up from here.

I think he's a great pitcher. And Im not saying he's gonna get hurt, I hope he doesnt, I hope he has a great career. BUT, Prior used to be the "poster" boy for pitching "perfect" and look what happened to him. Does anyone talk about him having perfect mechanics now?????? No. And Im sure that there was someone before him who people talked about and got hurt and fell off the radar. And prolly someone before him, etc...

You know what? For the record, I have never said Prior had a good delivery. My father saw him pitch in the regionals in 2001, I believe, and did not like his delivery.

For the record, Maddux is the posterboy in my mind for the best delivery. Take it or leave it.

I think this guy creates the most "power" possible in his delivery. As for injuries, time will tell, but I do think he has a great delivery

[beemax]

Well lets see, when I first came down here I couldnt put the ball wherever I wanted, but everyday that I throw I get better and better. Just like Im sure when you start to hit again for ball you cannot do whatever you want to the ball, but as you get back into it, you get better and better and are able to hit the ball pretty much wherever you want in BP, right?

Right, but it usually takes me a few weeks to get a good feel back. Not 280, or 560, or 840 days or whatever it is.

Well Im glad you didnt. I meant when it came to baseball. Doc has "evidence" to back up his claims. You just need to come and see it.

This is the main problem Joe. Nobody wants to go to Zephyhills other than the few that train with Doc. We want to see this "evidence" in games on baseball fields, not bullpens thrown into nets.

[fastbal95]

Brett,

If he does end up having injuries, Im not saying he will and I hope he doesnt, but lets just say he does. Would you still say he has a great delivery or would your opinion change then?

What if you learned a whole new way to throw? Or you tried hitting the other way? How long would it take you then do you think?

I cant help it if no one wants to come to Z-hills. Thats not my problem. You say you want to see on the field stuff and yet when Dirt tells you about his guys, you, and your brother, basically call him a liar and do not believe him. So which is it Brett?

[beemax]

If he does end up having injuries, Im not saying he will and I hope he doesnt, but lets just say he does. Would you still say he has a great delivery or would your opinion change then?

What if you learned a whole new way to throw? Or you tried hitting the other way? How long would it take you then do you think?

John Smoltz had TJ and I think he has a great delivery, and has proven it over time. As it pertains to being a power pitcher, I think Lincecum has a great delivery. I cannot see an instance where I would change my mind on his delivery.

I don't know and I don't plan on it. IMO baseball is a game of [I]adjustments.[I] I'm sure you agree with that, but where we will probably differ is how to make these adjustments.

I am of the belief that small adjustments need to be made constantly to get better. If you try to make big changes it oftentimes won't work. I know that from experience with my swing. I am refining my swing now, not changing it. IMO there is a difference.

[fastbal95]

Brett,

So why did Smotlz need TJ then? Well lets see, because of his delivery. Same with every other guy who has needed TJ and that does for guys who need shoulder surgery too. Sounds to me like the delivery is not that good if its causing injuries. Just my opinion though.

Adjustments are great. Refining is great. I am constantly making adjustments to make sure I throw the highest quality pitch I can. That means you are trying to be the best you can be. Thats a good thing.

Dont know if you saw this cuz I added it on my previous post so I'll post it here again:

I cant help it if no one wants to come to Z-hills. Thats not my problem. You say you want to see on the field stuff and yet when Dirt tells you about his guys, you, and your brother, basically call him a liar and do not believe him. So which is it Brett?

[beemax]

Brett,
I cant help it if no one wants to come to Z-hills. Thats not my problem. You say you want to see on the field stuff and yet when Dirt tells you about his guys, you, and your brother, basically call him a liar and do not believe him. So which is it Brett?

Again, just to my point. I say I want to SEE it on the field, yet we just HEAR about it. Put your money where your mouth is. Everyone is tired of all talk and no real evidence.

[fastbal95]

So are people supposed to travel to you and show you game a game, or are you supposed to go to where the game is being played?

[Deemax]

So why did Smotlz need TJ then? Well lets see, because of his delivery.
Same could be said for the most skilled pitcher in the world...Jeffrey James Sparks (TJ surgery 2002...Marshall student since mid 90's).

[fastbal95]

Yes, his delivery BEFORE he met Doc caused the three tears that he had. Good one Deemax.

[beemax]

So why did Smotlz need TJ then? Well lets see, because of his delivery. Same with every other guy who has needed TJ and that does for guys who need shoulder surgery too. Sounds to me like the delivery is not that good if its causing injuries. Just my opinion though.


John Smotlz Career stats up to this point:
207W 145L 3.26ERA 53CG 16SHO 154SV 3,367.0IP 2975K's

Would you say these HOF type stats had anything to do with his delivery? Or was it just luck?

Joe, I can't say this enough. Doc's heart is in the right place. Make sure that you understand where I am coming from though. If we talk velocity and say there is no evidence, you go to this. If we talk walks you come out and say that Jeff Sparks should have been as good as Johan Santana.

If we mention that Jeff Sparks, the most talked about MM student, had TJ in 2002, you say it was because he was forced to in hopes of landing another pitching job, and not because of Doc.

Why do we ask for evidence? Why do I say Smoltz has a great delivery?

He has been putting it on display for the last 19 years in Atlanta. And once his career is over he will have a plaque with his grill on it in Cooperstown.

He has the evidence to show that his delivery works.

Do you think he would go through TJ again to have the career he has? Absolutely.

Do I think that if he could have prevented TJ while still being as effective as he has been he would have? Absolutely. Is there a motion that he could have thrown with that he would have put up the same, if not better numbers without TJ? IMHO, that is a no.

Please prove me wrong Joe. I want pitchers to be able to throw without getting hurt while throwing to their maximum potential, just like you do. I just don't think Doc has found a motion to do so.

[beemax]

So are people supposed to travel to you and show you game a game, or are you supposed to go to where the game is being played?

Joe, I'll be in Viera Florida playing other minor leaguers in spring training. If I get to face any of Doc's guys in our exhibitions or during the season I will let you know.

I'm not a scout...yet, so for now Doc's pitchers will have to come to me.

[Deemax]

Yes, his delivery BEFORE he met Doc caused the three tears that he had. Good one Deemax.

Nope, he tore it with Docs mechanics. I understand the coverup though... it doesnt look good when your prized injury free delivery has its most skilled pitcher getting TJ surgery. Not a great selling point...

[fastbal95]

Brett,

If you talk about velocity I go to what? I told you Dan Robinson hit 95 at the Dodgers tryout. You dont believe me. I just posted what someone wrote me on ASMI's webiste. Im sure you do believe that either. Im sure you think there is a conspiracy with everyone who actually has used Doc's stuff and done his training. We all lie about what we are able to do after utilizing his methods. I dont know why we do, but we do lie. We all decided a while ago that we were going to spread lies about what guys have been able to do after using Doc's stuff just to "mess" with everyone in the world.

You bring up Jeff having TJ. Yes, he did. He also tore his UCL three time while he still used the "traditional" motion. Is that hard to understand.

Like I said, Z-hills is not that far away and kinda on your way to Viera. If you really wanted to see, really wanted to, you'd make the short drive here. Plenty other people who actually wanted to see have come down for themselves. You want proof, I tell you to come to Z-hills because that is where WE are. Yet you want people to come to you. Something seems off with that. If you really want to see, then come for yourself. If not, fine, but dont act like you really want proof when you wont drive the short ride to see it.

[fastbal95]

Dee,

Oh I was unaware that you are a Dr. and that you actually know Jeff personally and know when he tore it. My bad.

If you want, I'll ask Jeff the names of the trainers he saw in college when he hurt his elbow. He said he would be more than happy to provide those names. I believe he was at Texax Lutheran. Those trainers still might be working there. Maybe you should look into it.

[beemax]

Like I said, Z-hills is not that far away and kinda on your way to Viera. If you really wanted to see, really wanted to, you'd make the short drive here. Plenty other people who actually wanted to see have come down for themselves. You want proof, I tell you to come to Z-hills because that is where WE are. Yet you want people to come to you. Something seems off with that. If you really want to see, then come for yourself. If not, fine, but dont act like you really want proof when you wont drive the short ride to see it.

Joe, you said you had no problem coming to Viera. How many times do I have to tell you I DON'T WANT TO DRIVE OUT OF MY WAY WITH MY MOM TO SEE YOU GUYS PITCH. You're the one with something to prove in this situation, so come on to Viera. I'm tired of the "you're scared" tactics. I'm not the one who hides in z hills and then goes to pitch for a team that surprisingly was the only team in the Chicago suburban baseball league to not post its stats online.

Its 125 miles to z hills from viera. No thanks. If you want to spend the time and money to come to viera, be my guest. That has been our agreement all along.

[fastbal95]

Brett,

I dont have a problem driving to Viera. That hasnt changed.

Ya, ya, ya, I know you dont want to drive out of your way. Heaven forbid you have to drive out of your way.

I have nothing to prove to you. You are the one who keeps wanting proof and results. Proofing this to you does nothing. You arent anyone involved in baseball operations. But someone like Tommy John I would have something to prove. You, no.

I am not hiding here in Z-hills. This is where Doc chose to retire so this is where I have to come if I want to work with him. Dont think for a second that I actually like it here better than Chicago, but its what I have to do in order to get where I want to go.

I dont run the website for the team that I played for. I cant help if Darren, coaches name, didnt put the stats up. If you want, I'll PM you his number and you can call him and ask him yourself how I pitched and what he thought. I dont care. I have nothing to hide.

Just remember, YOU are the one demanding "proof". It only seems reasonable that you would come to where we are to see this "proof". Just my opinion.

[beemax]

I dont have a problem driving to Viera. That hasnt changed.


Good. Ill see you there then.

I am not hiding here in Z-hills. This is where Doc chose to retire so this is where I have to come if I want to work with him. Dont think for a second that I actually like it here better than Chicago, but its what I have to do in order to get where I want to go.

Where do you want to go?

Just remember, YOU are the one demanding "proof". It only seems reasonable that you would come to where we are to see this "proof". Just my opinion.

Just remember, YOU are the one that suggested we meet. I said ok, you said you could come to Viera. End of story.

[fastbal95]

Brett,

As far as I can take it. I want to be the best pitcher that I can be. If that means ML, fantastic. As long as I have no regrets when I finally hang up my spikes, I will be satisfied.

[Dirtberry]

Wow, there is a chance to see a Brett (Batting, ?) vs. Joe (pitching, Marshall).

I'd pay to see that!

I challenged a young Pop-off artist to a batting dual last year when he said he could hit any Marshall pitcher, his tail immediately dropped down between his legs and we never heard from him again.

[Baseball gLove]

Brett,

Whats the video?



Here is a post from ASMI's website. I thought it would extremely interesting and pertinent to our discussion:



I am now 48 years old. I was an old worn out college pitcher with bone chips in my elbow, damage to my ulnar nerve, an old tear in my teres minor, and 2 years ago, I couldn't even throw batting practice without bad pain.

I happened acros Doc's website about 2 years ago. I got his 2006 dvd, and taught myself his pitching motion. What a difference!!!

I throw at what I would call game intensity EVERY day now...at least 40 pitches. I also throw batting practice for several teams. My longest stint was last year I threw 1185 fairly high intensity batting practice pitches to the high school team and American Legion tryouts over a 4 day period.

Nobody could believe ANYBODY could throw that many pitches without pain, let alone a 47 year old guy like me.

My 15 year old son has been on Doc's program for about 100 days now. Every day he throws the 6 lb. iron ball at full intensity 70 times - 420 lbs. He does 30 wrist flips with the 6 lb ball - 180lbs. He works the 10lb wrist weights at max intensity 25 times - 250 lbs. Then he throws 60 game intensity baseball pitches.

That's 850 lbs of iron at full intensity and about 19 lbs of full intensity baseballs every day.

High School baseball tryouts are Monday next week, and the Varsity Baseball Coach has warned every pitcher it won't be easy. He said each pitcher will throw 40 game intensity pitches for 3 days straight. Wow...a whole 13 lbs of baseballs!!!

We went home and laughed. But guess what...all the other pitchers are scared. They are worried they won't make it through the tryout because they know they are not ready to throw 3 days in a row.

By the way, my son used to have elbow pain. Last year his fastball velocity averaged about 75 mph. Right now, he is averaging 86 to 89 mph. His Pronated Curve is a real hammer! He has no pain. He just keeps getting stronger and stronger.

I have seen what Doc's program does first hand, and experienced it for myself. NOBODY is going to convince me what he teaches does not get results. I know it does.

Wow, another story, but no proof and no film.

[beemax]

Wow, there is a chance to see a Brett (Batting, ?) vs. Joe (pitching, Marshall).

I'd pay to see that!

I challenged a young Pop-off artist to a batting dual last year when he said he could hit any Marshall pitcher, his tail immediately dropped down between his legs and we never heard from him again.

Dirt,

Are you calling me a pop-off artist?

[Dirtberry]

Did you see your name in there?
Where’s your tail? You know even if you took BP off of Joe you would come away with a whole different perspective than anyone in the world, even me, I can't imagine facing some of my HS pitchers, then again I’m getting so old I couldn’t face one of my LL’ers.

[beemax]

A simple no would have done just fine there, Lon.

[fastbal95]

Baseball Love,

Last time I checked, no video of your son has surfaced either. Maybe you are just all talk too, huh?

I got this off of ASMI's website. This guy sent me a message to let me know who he was. I have invited him to come over hear and share his experiences with Doc's stuff. I hope he chooses to. And if he has video of his son, or could take some, even better then.

Im sure it still wouldnt be good enough for some of you guys though.

[Baseball gLove]

Baseball Love,

Last time I checked, no video of your son has surfaced either. Maybe you are just all talk too, huh?

I got this off of ASMI's website. This guy sent me a message to let me know who he was. I have invited him to come over hear and share his experiences with Doc's stuff. I hope he chooses to. And if he has video of his son, or could take some, even better then.

Im sure it still wouldnt be good enough for some of you guys though.

Unlike you guys, I'm not the one selling mechanics that don't work as advertised. I am not touting my son to be the next Josh Beckett either. He is 15 years old.

Unlike you, I'm not going to report how wonderful his control and velocity is in bullpens. No, I will wait until there is something notable and verifiable.

[Pitcher1983]

Fastball95...
what's wrong within Schilling's mechanics?
That looks quite perfect to me...
I think that if you throw hard as schilling has done for over 20 years, that's an option that you get injuried sooner or later.. and if that happens that doesn't mean that the cause is undoubtedly wrong mechanics!
Injuries happen in all sports even to guys that don't do anything wrong!
So why don't we talk about guys pitching great baseball like Ryan, Clemens, Johnson, Koufax, Maddux, etc etc?
they didn't have injuries full careers.
Clemens has changed something within his release, but has not got into MM motion. Every pitcher changes some things as he acquires knowledge and experiments ways to be more effective with less stress.

[fastbal95]

Pitcher1983,

Whats wrong with Schilling Mechanics is that he has had two arm surgeries over his career and now he is prolly going to need another one if he ever wants to pitch again. Seems pretty obvious to me.

Pitching arm injuries DO NOT just happen. They happen because the pitcher is doing something that causes the injury. Can you understand that?

You want to talk about Nolan Ryan? A .500 pitcher over his career with multiply injuries and surgeries. By Johnson I assume you mean Randy Johnson. Multiply back surgeries and a knee surgery that I am aware of. Not sure if he has had any arm surgeries though. Koufax's career ended prematurely because of an elbow injury. Were you not aware of that?

I can think of three guys who have pitched a long time without meaningful injuries off the top of my head. Maddox, Glavine, and Clemens.

Clemens was headed for a career ending injury when he "changed" his driveline. Wanna know where he got the advice from???? I never said he changed to using MM mechanics, I said he straightened his driveline out. And there is the notion now that his years from 1997 till now have been as a result of steriods and HGH. I wouldnt say he is the best example to use as a good pitcher, just my opinion though.

So we have three guys out of how many thousands have played MLB that havent had any problems really. Does that sound like the rule or the exceptions? Do you want me to list off the names of players who had surgery last seaon alone? Im sure its quite large.

[Go Cardinals]

Do you want me to list off the names of players who had surgery last seaon alone? Im sure its quite large.

I would like to see it... and the injury

[fastbal95]

Cards,

This is going to take some time. I will begin to work on this soon.

[CoachB25]

Cards,

This is going to take some time. I will begin to work on this soon.


fastbal95, this would still be an invalid study if your intent is to state the number of injuries and then suggest any kind of comparison with MM. You can't produce any MLB pitchers that us MM's techniques for comparison. Also, you'd also have to add to the equation any injuries typical of the game itself. In other words, suggesting that pitchers hurt themselves more due to technique would also have to be compared to all other players and their tendencies for injuries. Injuries at any competitive level are not exclusive to pitchers.


Further, and with all due respect, I'm going to give my opinion about the constant interjections of Doctor Marshall's techniques/theories into all of the pitching threads. I'm sure Doctor Marshall might occasionally read this thread and I wonder what he thinks. What I get out of the various discussions is that Dr. Marshall doesn't have any pitcher currently in MLB. I get that the one he did have didn't last long. I get that should I, as a parent, decide to consider Dr. Marshall's concepts, my child is not going to stand a chance of making it into professional ball since the consistent suggestion is that pro scouts avoid those students like the plague. Therefore, and again with all due respect, I'm not sure that you and Dirtbag are necessairly doing Dr. Marshall any favors. If I had a son who was a pitcher, I'd keep away. However, this is just my opinion and as we all know, my opinion and roughly $6 will get you an extra value meal at Micky D's.

[TG Coach]

B25 .... I once wrote Marshall a very polite email about the methods of sharing his information used by some poster last year and how it probably turns of many people who otehrwise might investigate. He responded he didn't care how they act as long as the message gets out. Then he called me a child abuser for letting my son pitch in LL.

Look at his website, his materials and his lack of tact. The man obviously has no sense at all regarding marketing. He believes he's right and he's going to jam it down everyone's throat with redicule, if necessary. Then he blames conspiracy for the resistance.

[TG Coach]

I genuinely believe pitchers who utilize Marshall's technique will pitch longer than the average MLB pitcher. The thing is, it's in adult rec leagues after they don't go anywhere in the game. A rec league pitcher who can take care of his arm and throw strikes can pitch into his 40's.

[fastbal95]

CoachB25,

This would not be a "study". I would just be reporting on all of the pitchers who have been injured, or needed surgery last year and cost their employers millions of dollars.

There is no need for comparison. The prove is that pitchers are constantly being injured using the "traditional" pitching motion.

Lets look at all other non-contact sports. Are basketball players constantly getting injured becaue of the way they shoot a jump shot? NO

Are golfers constantly getting injured because of the way they put or drive? NO

Are soccer players constantly getting injured because of the way they shoot the ball? NO

I think you get the point. I could go on and on and on, etc...

Yet, pitchers are constantly getting hurt, and having the same injuries over and over and over again. What is the same with all of these pitchers???? They are using the "traditional" pitching motion. Soooooooooooo, what are we to conclude from that? It is the pitching motion that is causing the injuries.

Furthermore, Doc does not ever go on sites like these. He is much too busy, from what he says. However, I speak with Doc every morning about what is going on on this site. He enjoys our conversations.

Is it your goal that your son makes it to the MLB no matter what? This is just my opinion, but if I had a son, I would hope, and it would be my goal, that my son would 1. Be the best possible pitcher, if he decided to pitch, he could physically be and reach whatever level his genetics could take him. 2. Be injury free and not have to endure the pain of pitching injuries. There are not fun. 3. Have fun doing it. Just my opinion.

[fastbal95]

Baseball Love,

1. Which is a bigger, stronger? The adductor brevis or the group of muscles known as the quadriceps?

2. Why dont track runners start on the blocks with their feet turned like you say all baseball players should do? Im just curious.

If turning your foot perpendicular is so much better, who dont track runners start out like that?

[CoachB25]

fastbal95, I'm simply stated my opinion which you'd agree is worthless. However, and for the sake of honesty, those basketball shooters like Iverson, have tendonitis often. They also have a lot of knee problems. Results of their shooting? Well, I don't know since there isn't a definitive study. Mickelson and others in golf have back problems. So you see my point. I don't have a son and so, I'll never have to worry. I do have kids that pitch and yes, I'd be one of the "traditionalist" of the evil empire. LOL! However, they have done quite well and 3 or 4 of them have made it MLB. One is back and forth now between AAA ball and MLB. We're hoping he gets to spend more time "up" this year. As to this date, none of my HS pitchers have had arm injuries. Guess I'm/they're lucky. What would also need to be included in any study, should you ever undertake it, is the number of pitchers that have played professionally (or include any level for that matter) that have been injury free. I'd suspect it is more than you'd think. Per myself, I throw a few hundred a day in BP. I don't lob it in there but rather pitch including a windup as well as breaking pitches. Never had a sore arm ever and I'm an old man now. Of course that could just be genetics. (Or the fact that I'm so old now that I just don't feel it.:shhh:)

edited to add this: My dd is a pitcher. I don't think MM's methods are going to help her. They call her BB. I don't know why. LOL!

[Baseball gLove]

CoachB25,

This would not be a "study". I would just be reporting on all of the pitchers who have been injured, or needed surgery last year and cost their employers millions of dollars.

There is no need for comparison. The prove is that pitchers are constantly being injured using the "traditional" pitching motion.

Lets look at all other non-contact sports. Are basketball players constantly getting injured becaue of the way they shoot a jump shot? NO

Are golfers constantly getting injured because of the way they put or drive? NO

Are soccer players constantly getting injured because of the way they shoot the ball? NO

I think you get the point. I could go on and on and on, etc...

Yet, pitchers are constantly getting hurt, and having the same injuries over and over and over again. What is the same with all of these pitchers???? They are using the "traditional" pitching motion. Soooooooooooo, what are we to conclude from that? It is the pitching motion that is causing the injuries.

Furthermore, Doc does not ever go on sites like these. He is much too busy, from what he says. However, I speak with Doc every morning about what is going on on this site. He enjoys our conversations.

Is it your goal that your son makes it to the MLB no matter what? This is just my opinion, but if I had a son, I would hope, and it would be my goal, that my son would 1. Be the best possible pitcher, if he decided to pitch, he could physically be and reach whatever level his genetics could take him. 2. Be injury free and not have to endure the pain of pitching injuries. There are not fun. 3. Have fun doing it. Just my opinion.


But soccer players get hurt a lot. Knees, ankles, pulled groins and hamstrings. There have been studies that link heading the ball to Parkinson's disease. I'd rather not be able to throw then to have Parkinson's. Golf players are pansies.

I guess you don't watch kids skateboard or motocross either. You want to cringe? Check out those injuries. I think I'd rather my son pitch then perform those xtreme sports.

[Baseball gLove]

Baseball Love,

1. Which is a bigger, stronger? The adductor brevis or the group of muscles known as the quadriceps?

2. Why dont track runners start on the blocks with their feet turned like you say all baseball players should do? Im just curious.

If turning your foot perpendicular is so much better, who dont track runners start out like that?


1. The group of muscles called quadriceps is bigger and stronger.
2. Because they are running, and have no intention of loading their hips to to throw an object such as a ball or a javelin.

When one turns their foot sideways, one uses the Sartorius muscles to help abduct the hip.

We are going round and round. When you can't come up with real proof, you think you can baffle us with faulty pseudo-science calling on Newton as your pitching coach. But you guys take only the pieces of Newtons Laws that make your pitching appear to be scientific. The body is rotational in nature not linear. Your "straight line" is really an arc. You guys have talked yourselves into a huge hole that is going to be very difficult to pitch out of.

[jima]

CoachB25,

This would not be a "study". I would just be reporting on all of the pitchers who have been injured, or needed surgery last year and cost their employers millions of dollars.

There is no need for comparison. The prove is that pitchers are constantly being injured using the "traditional" pitching motion.

Lets look at all other non-contact sports. Are basketball players constantly getting injured becaue of the way they shoot a jump shot? NO

Are golfers constantly getting injured because of the way they put or drive? NO

Are soccer players constantly getting injured because of the way they shoot the ball? NO

I think you get the point. I could go on and on and on, etc...

Yet, pitchers are constantly getting hurt, and having the same injuries over and over and over again. What is the same with all of these pitchers???? They are using the "traditional" pitching motion. Soooooooooooo, what are we to conclude from that? It is the pitching motion that is causing the injuries.

Furthermore, Doc does not ever go on sites like these. He is much too busy, from what he says. However, I speak with Doc every morning about what is going on on this site. He enjoys our conversations.

Is it your goal that your son makes it to the MLB no matter what? This is just my opinion, but if I had a son, I would hope, and it would be my goal, that my son would 1. Be the best possible pitcher, if he decided to pitch, he could physically be and reach whatever level his genetics could take him. 2. Be injury free and not have to endure the pain of pitching injuries. There are not fun. 3. Have fun doing it. Just my opinion.

FB...you are wrong. All the sports that you mention which require repititive motions by players who want to be the best are inherently injurious (not sure that's a word). I've never met a serious tournament golfer who hasn't had some problems with either the hands, wrist, elbow or back...many times requiring surgery to correct. The result of hundreds of swings over many years...you got a new injury free golf swing? Basketball players knees and ankles take abuse...I suppose you would suggest that they not jump...same with hockey, soccer, boxing and all the rest of sports. Practice and repititions takes a toll on the body and cause injury. How do you figure that the only injury epidemic in sports is pitching? I'm all for a better pitching motion...but you haven't done it yet...just a lot of talk and not much common sense. Do something, kid besides talk and I'll listen.

[fastbal95]

Baseball Love,

Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah.

What parts of Newtons laws then are we leaving out? Im curious to know.

[fastbal95]

Jima,

I talk yes, but Ive also walked the walk. I have played pro ball. What have you done? I throw every single day off of a mound as hard as I can. Can you do that? Can you throw a 12 lb ball 60 feet on a line? Can you use 25 lb wrist weights and replicate your throwing motion????????????? Can you do anything?? What have you done?????????????????

Last time I checked, Tiger Woods hasnt had any problems. I havent heard of an epidemic of basketball players having surgery. Have you?

Again, do hockey players need surgery because of the way they shoot the puck?????????????? NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Baseball gLove]

Baseball Love,

Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah.

What parts of Newtons laws then are we leaving out? Im curious to know.

Blah, Blah, Blah. Wow, nice vocab there Joe. I gave you direct answers to your questions. So your response to my very logical answers is blah, blah, blah? How very intelligent of you Joe. So Joe "I've got a degree in biology" Williams, Does the Biceps Femoris on that bear still contract the wrong way?

What part of Newton are you leaving out? The parts of Newton's Laws that stare at you in your face and you chose to ignore. Traditional pitchers use them and you can't figure out why it works, and why traditional pitchers can throw with greater velocity and accuracy even though we "Stomp our foot in the ground." Want to get real up close and personal with Newton? Ride your bike as fast as you can, then stomp your foot down in front of you. Conservation of momentum won't work how you think it does. Anyone with any brains would know that an unpleasant kinetic chain will pitch you into the ground. So much for your version of conservation of momentum.

[Deemax]

Last time I checked, Tiger Woods hasnt had any problems.

This is because you didnt check.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9A01E0D6173BF931A35755C0A96E9582 60
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/golf/1649968.stm
http://www.pgatour.com/story/8883297/
http://www.golftoday.co.uk/news/yeartodate/news02/woods51.html

[TG Coach]

Does anyone else find the hero worship of Marshall by his followers to be just a bit weird? There are instructors of the game I respect, but I don't worship them. Marshall seems to be able to gain a Jim Jones/David Koresh type devotion from his flock.

[fastbal95]

Baseball Love,

Thanks, I went to college for five years and learned that in my English class, lol.

As far as the bear stretching thing goes, I took your pictures of the lions, tigers, and bears (oh my) as a joke. You said you wouldnt tell them what they were doing was wrong. Wasnt the point of that post to be a joke? My response to you was in turn, a joke.

I understand very well that the "hamstring" muscle flexes the knee joint and the "quadriceps" muscle extends.

I am still waiting though, for what EXACT parts of Newton's laws are we missing or leaving out, seriously?

Again, you cannot compare a traditional pitcher to a marshall pitcher, genetics are different in everyone. You would need to compare someone who used to throw traditionally and changed and now throws using MM mechanics.

We've already been through the whole bike analogy and I have showed that what Dm was talking about was rediculous. If you get thrown off the bike, you arent going to be going any faster than the bike was actually going. Hence, when you stomp your foot into the ground, stop your body, stop the ball from moving forward at all, and even have it moving backwards, there is no way that you can accelerate your upper body faster because your upper body is attached to your lower body, your pitching leg which is back behind your body at release, by way off your ass.

Just like that 2x4 on the cart isnt going to be accelerated when the cart comes to a stop.

Again, if loading your hips, turning your foot perpendicular, is so much better, faster, etc... than moving in a straight line, why dont sprinters start like that then? It is was more powerful, they would start sideways, yet they do NOT. They start straight on and push using their quads instead of their adductor brevis.

[fastbal95]

Dee,

You took my quote a little out of context, but ok.

Is there an epidemic of injuries which require surgery for the majority of golfers like there is in baseball?

Is there in basketball?

I wonder what the percentage is of a pro pitcher, minor or major leagues, who has had some sort of surgery on their arms, compared to say basketball or swimming, or golf. I could be wrong, but I'd be willing to bet that the highest percentage of surgeries are coming from baseball.

[brett]

Sir Isaac Newton teaches us how to properly apply force to a baseball. His three laws of motion are our guide.

First of lets define a law in relative to science. The definition of a scientific law is such:

Scientific Law: This is a statement of fact meant to explain, in concise terms, an action or set of actions. It is generally accepted to be true and univseral, and can sometimes be expressed in terms of a single mathematical equation. Scientific laws are similar to mathematical postulates. They don’t really need any complex external proofs; they are accepted at face value based upon the fact that they have always been observed to be true.

Specifically, scientific laws must be simple, true, universal, and absolute. They represent the cornerstone of scientific discovery, because if a law ever did not apply, then all science based upon that law would collapse.


So what this says is that scientific laws are taken to be absolute and true.


Newton's first law and how it applies to pitching a baseball:

Every object in a state of uniform motion tends to remain in that state of motion unless an external force is applied to it.

Baseballs will stay at rest unless acted upon by an external force. They will also move in a straight line unless an external force is applied to it. Baseball pitchers need to apply they force in a straight line with respect towards home plate. Only the force applied in the X coordinate direction counts with respect to release velocity.

Newton's second law and how it applies to pitching a baseball:

The relationship between an object's mass m, its acceleration a, and the applied force F is F = ma. Acceleration and force are vectors (as indicated by their symbols being displayed in slant bold font); in this law the direction of the force vector is the same as the direction of the acceleration vector.

F=ma, or F(the force applied to the baseball in the X coordinate direction)=m(mass of the baseball)a(acceleration)

a(acceleration) is the change in velocity over a certain time period. So basically a(acceleration)=v(velocity)t(time)

Changing F=ma around we get a=F/m, since a=v/t we can substitute so v/t=F/m. We can also change this formula around to get this:

v(velocity)=F(force)t(time)/m(mass of the baseball). Since m(mass) is a constant, we find that v(velocity)=F(force)t(time).

That means that release velocity equals the force a pitcher applies to the baseball times the time period over which pitchers apply that force.

Traditional pitchers do NOT start to apply force to the baseball in the X coordinate direction with respect to home plate till AFTER their glove foot lands. Why is this? Because when their glove foot lands the baseball is either moving backwards, OR not moving at all, stopped still.

Using Mike Marshall mechanics, pitchers start to apply force to the baseball in the X coordinate with respect to home plate when their arm gets up to driveline height. They continue to apply force until release. Their driveline is longer than traditional pitchers. This means that they apply force to the baseball for a longer time period than traditional pitchers.

Newton's third law and how it applies to pitching a baseball:

For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.

This means that the force a pitchers applies towards home plate is only as great as the force that they apply towards second base. Hence, the more force that a pitcher applies towards second base, the more force they can apply towards home plate, the more force, the more velocity, remember v=Ft.

Three ways you can apply force towards second base:

1. The pitching foot can apply force towards second base if pitchers "push" off of the rubber.
2. The glove arm can apply force towards second base if pitchers pull their glove arm straight back.
3. The glove foot can apply force towards second base if pitchers rotate on their glove foot and push back towards second base with it.

Traditional pitchers can apply force using their pitching foot. They could apply apply force with their glove arm, but most if not all DO NOT pull their glove arm straight back. Also, most if not all, "traditional" pitching coaches do NOT teach pitchers to pull their arm straight back towards home plate. Traditional pitchers definately do NOT rotate on their glove foot, so they CANNOT apply force towards home plate with their glove foot. Most of the time, if not all of the time, "traditional" pitchers apply force with their glove foot towards home plate, NOT second base.

Pitchers using Mike Marshall's mechanics are taught to apply as much force towards second base as possible, using the pitching foot, glove arm, and glove foot. Hence, pitchers using Mike Marshall's mechanics are taught to apply more force towards second base than "traditional" pitchers. More force towards second base means more force in the direction of home plate. Remember Newton's third Law.

So, if pitchers using Mike Marshall's mechanics are able to apply force over a greater distance, or time period, and also are able to apply more force, then consequently, pitchers using Mike Marshall's mechanics are able to throw with greater velocities than they would if they used the "traditional" motion.

That people say it hasnt been "proven" on the field is irrelevent. Scientific laws are taken to be absolute and true. Therefore, prove on paper is all that is needed. If this is not true, then all science based upon these laws, would collapse, such as the idea of gravity. And we all know gravity to be very very real and true.

I have taught physics, and kinesiology. The problem with this system is that human beings force production is governed by reflexes that SHUT DOWN force production at certain levels of force, speed, or jerk (change in acceleration). The limiting factor to pitching speed is how fast your reflexes will let your arm get up to. If it gets to fast, antagonistic muscles contract and agonistic muscles stop producing further force. This is to keep someone from hurting themselves.

A long throwing path IS good, but the ball should be accelerated smoothly until the critical range of perhaps 2-4 inches where the person's reflexes allow for the greatest peak force. Studies have shown that a pitchers arm is exerting NEGATIVE force in the direction of the plate for up to 60% of the path.

You do not jump higher by going into a full squat. The best jumpers use 20% of their functional range of motion. If you did go into a full squat, you would be moving so fast by the halfway point that your reflexes would already be slowing you down.

A way to go around this would be "overspeed throwing" like overspeed sprinting. Has anyone ever suggested a method of overspeed throwing? I'm not up on the research.

[fastbal95]

brett,

Thanks for joining the discussion. You are right when you talk about producing force. We can only throw as hard as we can decelerate our body. If we threw harder or faster than we could decelerate, our arm would come out of the socket. Its a good thing our body will not allow that.

This is one of the reasons we train our declerators to be as strong as possible. The stronger they are, the more force they are able to withstand, hence then the faster that our body will allow us to go.

Would do you mean by overspeed sprinting exactly and overspeed throwing? Those of us who train with Dr. Mike Marshall use the overload principle when we train. Is this what you are talking about?

Where do you teach at, if you dont mind me asking?

"Studies have shown that a pitchers arm is exerting NEGATIVE force in the direction of the plate for up to 60% of the path."

Great quote. The "negative force" would be when pitchers have the late pitching forearm turnover and then the reverse pitching forearm bounce. When they get this bounce, their elbows are moving forward, but their hand, which has the ball in it, is either still or more likely actually moving backwards, with regards to homeplate. For some reason, people think this "external rotation" is good, where in reality, this is what causes people to rupture their ulnar collateral ligament.

[beemax]

Lets look at all other non-contact sports. Are basketball players constantly getting injured becaue of the way they shoot a jump shot? NO

Joe, do you really think a jump shot puts as much stress on any area of your body like throwing a fastball or a breaking ball does?

Are golfers constantly getting injured because of the way they put or drive? NO

Same goes for here. Driving can cause injuries, as it has done with Tiger and many others because they are torquing their backs an awful lot. But putting? Did you really just compare pitching to putting?

Are soccer players constantly getting injured because of the way they shoot the ball? NO

Why didn't you mention placekickers too? Really similar in the stress that they put on their bodies.

I think you get the point. I could go on and on and on, etc...

If you want to keep coming up with poor and baseless comparisons, please continue.

If throwing a baseball is supposed to be as "pain free" as a jump shot, a putt, or a kick, why does Doc go over "Daily Discomfort Reports" with all of you?

You think any basketball coaches, putting instructors, or soccer coaches have a "daily discomfort report?"

Throwing a baseball stresses the body in ways that all of your examples don't. Your examples prove nothing here, Joe.

[beemax]

Joe, I mentioned that I had a video you might like to see. I had a friend convert it into a gif file and hopefully it comes up here. I encourage all to watch it if possible.

Brett,

Whats the video?

Keep in mind that the pitch is a fastball here.

http://www.hittingillustrated.com/Jeff.gif

All thoughts and comments are welcome as this is the only evidence I have seen of anything with the full Marshall delivery to date.

[fastbal95]

Brett,

You really are clueless man.

I think I already explained the "discomfort" reports. But I'll do it again for you since you cant seem to comprehend it.

When you train your body, especially with the overload principle, you put more stress on your body, therefore your body is required to make a physiological adjustment. With the adjustment that your body makes, there is discomfort. The body does NOT like to change. It likes to stay however it is. This really isnt that complicated man.

Ive already seen that video. Its from around thanksgiving in 2006. Why would you think I might like to see it?

[Go Cardinals]

Dee,

You took my quote a little out of context, but ok.

Is there an epidemic of injuries which require surgery for the majority of golfers like there is in baseball?

Is there in basketball?

I wonder what the percentage is of a pro pitcher, minor or major leagues, who has had some sort of surgery on their arms, compared to say basketball or swimming, or golf. I could be wrong, but I'd be willing to bet that the highest percentage of surgeries are coming from baseball.

You named one other sport... lets take football... there are sooooo many injuries in football.

[fastbal95]

Football is a contact sport. Baseball is not.

[jima]

Jima,

I talk yes, but Ive also walked the walk. I have played pro ball. What have you done? I throw every single day off of a mound as hard as I can. Can you do that? Can you throw a 12 lb ball 60 feet on a line? Can you use 25 lb wrist weights and replicate your throwing motion????????????? Can you do anything?? What have you done?????????????????

Last time I checked, Tiger Woods hasnt had any problems. I havent heard of an epidemic of basketball players having surgery. Have you?

Again, do hockey players need surgery because of the way they shoot the puck?????????????? NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Joe, I'm a nobody. But I've live a full long life and I know BS when I hear it. You might try growing up a bit before giving lectures...your immaturity shines through constantly in these discussions. As I said before, I hope you succeed and then you'll actually have something of substance to talk about. jima

[beemax]

You really are clueless man.

Because I didn't compare putting to pitching? Or shooting a jump shot to pitching?

I think I already explained the "discomfort" reports. But I'll do it again for you since you cant seem to comprehend it.

When you train your body, especially with the overload principle, you put more stress on your body, therefore your body is required to make a physiological adjustment. With the adjustment that your body makes, there is discomfort. The body does NOT like to change. It likes to stay however it is. This really isnt that complicated man.

I know it is not that complicated. Take a guy from off the streets. Have him shoot 50 jump shots at a gym. Then have him putt 50 balls the next day. Then have him kick 50 soccer balls the next day. The day after that, hit 50 slap shots. Finally, the day after that, have him throw 50 baseballs as hard as he can.

Which motion will give him the most "discomfort?" The answer seems pretty simple to me.

Would a basketball player retooling his shooting stroke need a "daily dicomfort report?"

How about a golfer working on a whole new putting stroke?

Or a soccer player learning to kick a ball the same way?

Or a hockey player learning a new slap shot?

Or even a hitter learning a whole new way to hit?

My point is that pitching stresses the arm more than any of these actions stress any part of the body.

Ive already seen that video. Its from around thanksgiving in 2006. Why would you think I might like to see it?

It's Jeff Sparks right? He's throwing a fastball with Doc's motion at 80mph. This is the best evidence I have found of anything regarding his motion as he teaches it today.

If you say is was around Thanksgiving of 2006, that would make it only 4 months before the Detroit Tigers tryout where it was said that he topped out at 83. This video seems to back up that story to me.

This from a guy that threw in the low 90s in the big leagues before.

[fastbal95]

Brett,

Round and round we go and you cannot comprehend this stuff.

First of all, the video was shot by guys from Taiwan. They used a continuous read radar gun. Do you know the difference between a continuous read gun and a gun such as a stalker, stalker sport, or a jugs gun?

Secondly, when we train, such as when we do a recoil cycle, we are not able to throw as hard as we will when we get into competitive situations. Its pretty easy to understand. We train using the overload principle and because of the huge amounts of stress we apply to our bodies, we are not able to throw as fast as we will when we get into competitive situations after we have finished training and gone into competitive pitching mode.

Your intensity and adreneline when throwing into a net is not as high as they are when throwing to a catcher. The intensity and adreneline of throwing to a catcher is not as high as throwing to hitters in live bp situations. The intensity and adreneline of throwing in live bp situations is not as high as they are when you pitch in a life game situation. Follow?

You would not know this unless someone explained it to you, like I have, because you do not train like we do.

Unfortunately, I dont think you understand it even after I have explained it to you.

Another question, do basketball players train using the overload principle? How about golfers? Soccer players? Hockey players? What about hitters? Well some hitters might actually, but how about you Brett? How do you train to hit?

[fastbal95]

Jima,

I dont care whether you listen to me or not.

Ignorance is not an excuse.

You got one thing right though in your last post. I'll leave you to figure out what is was.

[beemax]

Round and round we go and you cannot comprehend this stuff.

Yes, round and round we go with you assuming that because I don't agree with you, I am wrong or don't understand what you are saying.

First of all, the video was shot by guys from Taiwan.

Did they come all the way out to watch you guys pitch in regression? Did Doc have them come out or did they come out on their own?

They used a continuous read radar gun. Do you know the difference between a continuous read gun and a gun such as a stalker, stalker sport, or a jugs gun?

Tell me the difference, Joe.

Secondly, when we train, such as when we do a recoil cycle, we are not able to throw as hard as we will when we get into competitive situations. Its pretty easy to understand. We train using the overload principle and because of the huge amounts of stress we apply to our bodies, we are not able to throw as fast as we will when we get into competitive situations after we have finished training and gone into competitive pitching mode.

I agree that bullpen intensity is not the same as game intensity. But don't tell me that because you guys train with the "recoil" cycle that means that you throw slower in non-competitive situations than those who don't do it. That's a complete fallacy, IMO and a weak excuse for the Jeff Sparks video I provided.

Your intensity and adreneline when throwing into a net is not as high as they are when throwing to a catcher. The intensity and adreneline of throwing to a catcher is not as high as throwing to hitters in live bp situations. The intensity and adreneline of throwing in live bp situations is not as high as they are when you pitch in a life game situation. Follow?

Yeah Joe, I follow.

You would not know this unless someone explained it to you, like I have, because you do not train like we do.

Why is that? Because I am dumb? You think that I don't know that you are likely to throw harder when in a game situation?

All I did was put some REAL EVIDENCE out there. I know that he would probably throw harder in a game situation. But not in the 90s, IMO.

You remember Jim Morris? The guy who came out at 35 and threw 96mph in a tryout with the Devil Rays? Was that in a game? No. And it was 13mph harder than what Sparks topped out at in a tryout with the Tigers.

Just because it wasn't a game situation doesn't mean it is that far off of what he would throw in a game.

Unfortunately, I dont think you understand it even after I have explained it to you.

Translation: I question and disagree with your opinions and what you believe to be fact, and you take it as I don't understand what you are talking about.

Another question, do basketball players train using the overload principle? How about golfers? Soccer players? Hockey players? What about hitters?

No, they don't. And this pretty much contradicts any points that you were trying to make earlier with comparing pitching to golf, basketball, soccer, etc.

Well some hitters might actually, but how about you Brett? How do you train to hit?

I have hit with weighted bats before, if you were asking about me in regards to overload training, but for the most part I like to swing with the bat I use in the game and nothing a whole lot different. But what does that have to with this conversation?

[RIstar]

Trust me at a tryout your adrenaline is going to be pumping and you will throw just as hard in a game. IMO

[fastbal95]

Brett,

I believe they contacted Doc and wanted to come out at a date of their choice. We welcome all visitors whenever they choose to come. We dont pick the dates people come on.

Do you really not know the difference Brett? Your dad was a scout right? He never explained it to you? Are you being serious or sarcastic?

Its not a complete fallacy. You just do not know or understand, sorry Brett.

Did Jim morris train like we do? NO. Did he even utilize the overload training principle? NO Again, you have no clue.

Translation: You just dont understand it. Its not my fault you cant comprehend this stuff.

How does this contradict anything I was saying????? Traditional pitchers do not use the overload training principle and they still get injured and need surgery more so than any other sport. Its an epidemic. While other non contact sports are no where near the injury rates that baseball is for pitching.

[RIstar]

Traditional pitchers, weight lift and some use weighted baseballs that applies to the overload training principle.

[brett]

Brett,

You really are clueless man.

I think I already explained the "discomfort" reports. But I'll do it again for you since you cant seem to comprehend it.

When you train your body, especially with the overload principle, you put more stress on your body, therefore your body is required to make a physiological adjustment. With the adjustment that your body makes, there is discomfort. The body does NOT like to change. It likes to stay however it is. This really isnt that complicated man.

Ive already seen that video. Its from around thanksgiving in 2006. Why would you think I might like to see it?

I'm not sure how I got associated with some video, or whatever conversation you are responding too. I think you are talking to someone else. I only made one prior post on this thread and it has nothing to do with what you are talking about.

Is there some other Brett around here?

[brett]

We've already been through the whole bike analogy and I have showed that what Dm was talking about was rediculous. If you get thrown off the bike, you arent going to be going any faster than the bike was actually going.



Not your center of mass, but the x component of your head might be moving faster than the bike because you would be rotating.

[fastbal95]

brett,

Ya sorry about that. Beemax's name is Brett. I was speaking to him. I did however ask you a few questions.

When I refer to him, Brett, I use his B in caps. Since your user name is brett with a lower case b, thats what I used to refer to you. I hope that clears up any confusion.

[brett]

Brett,

I believe they contacted Doc and wanted to come out at a date of their choice. We welcome all visitors whenever they choose to come. We dont pick the dates people come on.

Do you really not know the difference Brett? Your dad was a scout right? He never explained it to you? Are you being serious or sarcastic?

Its not a complete fallacy. You just do not know or understand, sorry Brett.

Did Jim morris train like we do? NO. Did he even utilize the overload training principle? NO Again, you have no clue.

Translation: You just dont understand it. Its not my fault you cant comprehend this stuff.

How does this contradict anything I was saying????? Traditional pitchers do not use the overload training principle and they still get injured and need surgery more so than any other sport. Its an epidemic. While other non contact sports are no where near the injury rates that baseball is for pitching.


Why are you writing to me?

[fastbal95]

RIstar,

Lifting weights is not specific to pitching. You need to read Specificity of Training by Dr. William Heusner from Michigan State University.

Also, I have only heard of pitchers using weighted balls that are maybe a few ounces heavier than a regular ball. Are there any pitchers that throw weighted balls that are at least 6 lbs, other than Doc's guys of course. This is not enough of a difference in weight to produce a physiological response. Now something like 6-15 pounds is definately heavy enough to create a physiological response.

[fastbal95]

brett,

Again, I wasnt writing to you. I was writing to Beemax. His name is Brett. Sorry about the confusion.

[Jake Patterson]

Round and round we go and you cannot comprehend this stuff.
Joe,
I do not feel it's a problem with technique comprehension I feel it's a problem with performance.

This is why I seldom engage in religious discussions. Perceived faith and fact are difficult barriers to overcome, especially by those who completely believe in either.

The bottom line is many are willing to risk injury for performance. Until Doc has someone who can demonstrate safe technique and performance the discussion will indeed go round and round.

[RIstar]

Ok well we all know that MM will not reach 90+ if it is done the same way mike marshall teaches it. Which again I have never seen Jeff Sparks bring the arm streaight back instead he scap loads and throws which is very like traditional pitchers.

[fastbal95]

Jake,

I was willing to risk injury to perform. I still would be. HOWEVER, I found something that enables me to pitch much better than before and with the knowledge that I dont have to worry about injuring my shoulder or elbow because of my motion.

[brett]

brett,

Ya sorry about that. Beemax's name is Brett. I was speaking to him. I did however ask you a few questions.

When I refer to him, Brett, I use his B in caps. Since your user name is brett with a lower case b, thats what I used to refer to you. I hope that clears up any confusion.

So, I was a TA in physics and kinesiology and the university of Colorado. I currently teach highschool science.

Overspeed would be forcing the arm to move FASTER than it is used to. This can raise the reflex threshold. Sprinters can increase their strides per second by practicing downhill sprints down about a 3-5% grade. It works. I have had slow footed freshmen baseball players who cut their 60 time from 8.5 to 7.9 seconds in 2 WEEKS of downhill sprinting, twice a week, 10 sprints-20-30 minutes. It doesn't work for guys who are already pretty good runners.

So the goal would be to find a way to force the arm to move FASTER than it normally would. Some have recommended alternating 10 and 20 ounch baseballs-10 for overspeed and 20 for loaded.

But that still will not FORCE someone to throw faster.

Thinking about it, the way to do it would be to have a wind tunnell/strong fan behind the pitcher.

You cold also train the step portion by having bands pulling the individual forward. Martial artists have started incorporating overspeed punching, where you have bands pulling the body forward. It also has worked for vertical jumps.

[fastbal95]

RIstar,

The only thing that we all know is that you have no clue what you are talking about. That is why you keep flip flopping on how to pitch.

I dont care if you want to use Doc's stuff or not. How about you just choose a way to throw and stick with it though. Do us all a favor.

[brett]

RIstar,

Lifting weights is not specific to pitching. You need to read Specificity of Training by Dr. William Heusner from Michigan State University.



Lifting weights with the legs-both to drive and decelerate, and strengthening the postural muscles is absolutely specific to pitching.

[RIstar]

lol I did something new for 2 day's nice try on the personal attack.

And if you look at the clip of jeff Sparks you will see that there is pinching of the shoulder blades and his arm goes behind where MM says to bring it straight back.

[fastbal95]

brett,

Thanks for sharing.

First of all, 10 ounces would be too much for underload because a baseball only weighs 5 ounces. Secondly, I do not believe that 20 ounces would be heavy enough to generate a physiological response.

The only way I know to increase the arm to move faster is to make the decelerator muscles stronger so they can withstand the extra force. You have some interesting ideas though.

Im sorry, lifting your legs with weights is NOT specific to pitching.

[Jake Patterson]

Jake,

I was willing to risk injury to perform. I still would be. HOWEVER, I found something that enables me to pitch much better than before and with the knowledge that I dont have to worry about injuring my shoulder or elbow because of my motion.
I feel everyone here hopes you succeed, but until you do some will see what you say as rhetoric.

[brett]

brett,

Thanks for sharing.

First of all, 10 ounces would be too much for underload because a baseball only weighs 5 ounces. Secondly, I do not believe that 20 ounces would be heavy enough to generate a physiological response.

The only way I know to increase the arm to move faster is to make the decelerator muscles stronger so they can withstand the extra force. You have some interesting ideas though.

Im sorry, lifting your legs with weights is NOT specific to pitching.

A baseball is 14-16 ounces. (Whoops, I see 5 ounces on a Wikipedia thread) I must have been thinking 140-150 grams.
Maybe that was the problem. The recomendation is to use implements between 60-160% of the competition item.

Is lifting weights with the legs specific to sprinting?

[RIstar]

Weight lifting or Olympic lifts use Triple Extention which means foot, knee and hip extend. You also use Triple Extention with the pitching motion when you load the back leg and then bend and then semi straighten and rotate it.

http://www.acepitcher.com/article1.html

The link above explains how Weight training/Lifting and pitching go hand and hand.

[fastbal95]

brett,

Where are you getting your info on how much a baseball weighs???

A baseball must weigh between 5-5.25 ounces. No more. 14 ounces is almost a pound.

Again, lifting weights is not SPECIFIC to pitching.

[RIstar]

Did you look at the link?

It uses Newtons laws to prove they are alike.

[fastbal95]

RIstar,

I looked at the link. I found it interesting that this website quotes Doc and refers to his website.

I think I'll believe DR. Mike Marshall and DR. William Heusner as it pertains to specificity of training.

I do not know who the guys are who run the website you gave me the link to. But Im pretty sure they dont have PhD's in exercise physiology and kinesiology.

I do find it interesting though that both had arm injuries and one for sure had shoulder surgery. I wonder if they are teaching the motion that they used when they played?

[brett]

Weight lifting or Olympic lifts use Triple Extention which means foot, knee and hip extend. You also use Triple Extention with the pitching motion when you load the back leg and then bend and then semi straighten and rotate it.

http://www.acepitcher.com/article1.html

The link above explains how Weight training/Lifting and pitching go hand and hand.

Most sports physiologist today, who I know, would say that you do not want that kind of sports specificity. It will create negative transferance because the motion is similar, but the ground contact time is much different. Cleans are not considered a sport specific movement for football anymore because they train abnormal ground contact time. Again, too specific means negative transferrance.

In other words, the newest trend is that you don't want your weight training to be too specific to your sport.

You should definitely not use sports specific weight training untill you have enough actual raw strength in the hips, hamstrings and calves. The actual femur speed of rotation in pitching is not that great. If femur speed is not that great, that it is mostly limited by maximal strength-not speed strength.

[RIstar]

They are teaching the correct way to throw hard. You might dissagree but they have looked at video of Tim Lincecum and Nolan Ryan and have figured out how they throw hard.

[brett]

brett,

Where are you getting your info on how much a baseball weighs???

A baseball must weigh between 5-5.25 ounces. No more. 14 ounces is almost a pound.

Again, lifting weights is not SPECIFIC to pitching.

I think I must have gotten that for a football or something.

There are enough postural muscles which are not dynamic movers in pitching that lifting weights is beneficial. I agree its not "specific" but that doesn't mean it is not helpfull. Not all beneficial training needs to be "specific", nor should it be and no training method should be too specific. Specificity is a bad thing more than a good thing. Also, a lift may be specific to a portion of the movement-hip drive. You do NOT want to train yourself to have your prime movers decelerate. That is true. That's why bands have to be combined with free weights. That is to say, a squat should have weight AND a couple hundred pounds of band tension as well or it will train you to decelerate.

[fastbal95]

RIstar,

You are all over the place. First its this, then its that. Then its Dick Mills, now its this acepitcher.com website. You really have no clue at all.

[fastbal95]

brett,

Specificity is the key to performance. Have you read Specificity of Training by Dr. William Heusner from Michigan State? You should if you already havent. If you want, I can give you a link to it.

[RIstar]

RIstar,

You are all over the place. First its this, then its that. Then its Dick Mills, now its this acepitcher.com website. You really have no clue at all.


I did Momentum Pitching and it didn't work so I moved on and I read acepitcher watched the videos they have and I do it anyway's my mechanics really have not changed to much just little tweaks hea and there.

I do think MP works but It's not for me.

[fastbal95]

RIstar,

Which one is it; it worked or it didnt.

You just said in your last post, "I did Momentum Pitching and it didn't work so I moved on".

Then at the end you say this: "I do think MP works but It's not for me."

In a lot of your posts in the thread, Momentum Pitching, you rave how its like the next best thing since sliced bread. Like I said, you are all over the place. Which is it, either it worked or it didnt. You have no clue. Just choose something and stick with it, whatever it is!

Here is the problem with acepitcher.com and every other webiste out there for that fact. Instead of using Newton's Three Laws as the starting point and figuring out a way to throw using these three laws, all they do is use the traditional motion as the baseline and try to figure out ways to utilize the three laws as best they can with the "traditional" motion. Broken logic. Can you understand this?

[RIstar]

It did work for me but I found it to hard to get the movement down. I also took into consideration about coaches at the HS and College level. It was just a test to see if it would work for me and it did the 1st day but the 2nd day I didn't feel like it would be repeatable at all.

I made a choice to stick with what I have.

Well I will go with Chris Lincecum and most of mlb thinking since the goal for me is MLB so you play by there rules.

Also IMO MM mechanics will not get past 90+ if done right as I have said before.

Why do all the MM students not do the mechanics MM teaches in his videos?

They all are rotational and scap load to some degree with the video I have seen.

Could you please explain why the scap load and bring the arm back not straight but behind the acrominal line {sp}?

[brett]

brett,

Specificity is the key to performance. Have you read Specificity of Training by Dr. William Heusner from Michigan State? You should if you already havent. If you want, I can give you a link to it.


I would welcome it. I want to make it clear that I understand about the problems of non-specificity, but what I've read in the last 12 months from trainers of elite athletes is that you want a) non-specific training and b) sports specific training but want to avoid c) in-between levels of specificity.

The clean is not specific to running or throwing just because it has a full extension. It is "in-between" because it is close enough to the sports motion to confuse the nervous system, but also quite different (because of ground contact time). This "in-between" level of specificity causes negative transference because it is close enough, yet different.

[fastbal95]

brett,

I agree that cleans are not specific to pitching. The only thing cleans are specific to are cleans. No lifting is specific to pitching. Only pitching is specific to pitching. Now, with that being said, I dont see anything wrong with lifting weights. I, in fact, do lift weights. I do not lift weights to make me a better pitcher though. I lift to get as big as possible, intimidation factor, lol and look good for the ladies, lol.

Here is the link for the Spec of Training:

http://drmikemarshall.com/SpecialReports.html

Click on the link, the you will see where it says, Specificity of Training by Professor William W. Heusner. Click on that.

[brett]

brett,

I agree that cleans are not specific to pitching. The only thing cleans are specific to are cleans. No lifting is specific to pitching. Only pitching is specific to pitching. Now, with that being said, I dont see anything wrong with lifting weights. I, in fact, do lift weights. I do not lift weights to make me a better pitcher though. I lift to get as big as possible, intimidation factor, lol and look good for the ladies, lol.

Here is the link for the Spec of Training:

http://drmikemarshall.com/SpecialReports.html

Click on the link, the you will see where it says, Specificity of Training by Professor William W. Heusner. Click on that.


I'm reading it. I'll mention a current issue in sports medicine. US olympic lifters have been way behind for decades on the world stage. What was discovered was that our lifters are not STRONG ENOUGH to maintain perfect posture in the olympic lifts, and that no amount of sports specific training could improve this. European lifters tended to squat 200 pounds more than they could clean. Americans tended to squat 20-30 more than they could clean. The new trend in American olympic lifting is to focus more on squats which are not biomechanically specific to the olympic lifts.

[fastbal95]

RIstar,

I think you mean Tim Lincecum, right? I understand that Lincecum is the new pitcher du jour. Prior was like that, BUT then he got hurt and everyone stop talking about him. And before Prior there was someone else, until they got hurt. And before that guy there was someone else etc.... I hope Lincecum has a injury free career and that he pitches to the best of his ability. BUT, with that being said, just because he is doing something a certain way and has some success, DOES NOT mean everyone should do it, or that it is the right way to do it. I hope you can see the difference here. If Lincecum gets hurt, are you still going to want to pitch like him or are you going to move on to the next pitcher of the day???

Every pitcher that Doc has trained has thrown traditionally for many years before coming to Doc. Those motor engrams are engrained in the mind and are hard to break. It takes time. That some pitchers that Doc has trained still "scap" load or bring the ball laterally behind there head means that they are still learning how to not do that. Everyone of us pendulem swings and brings the ball straight back. Some however, because of what I just described, still have a little bit of the bring the ball behind the head.

What does, "they are all rotational mean"? With any pitching motion, a pitcher must rotate. "Traditional" pitchers rotate over their pitching foot behind their body back by the rubber. Doc teaches pitchers to rotate over the glove foot out in front so as to keep your center of mass moving continually forward until after release.

[fastbal95]

brett,

Im glad you are reading it. A couple questions though.

1. What does Olympic lifting has to do with pitching a baseball?

2. How was it determined that no amount of specific training could improve this?

I do think a pitcher needs to be as strong as possible to be the best pitcher they can possibly be. That is why I train with wrist weights and a lead ball. Right now I am using 25 pound wrist weights, will be up to 30 lbs in less than a month, and I also throw a 12 lb lead ball everyday, as hard as I possibly can.

This training increases the strength of the bones, ligaments, tendons, and muscles that are required to throw a baseball, decelerators and accelerators. Therefore, as a result of these tissues being stronger, a pitcher is able to withstand the added force of being able to throw harder. Which then means that there body will be able to handle throwing the ball faster, so they will throw faster if they throw the baseball as hard as they can everyday.

[RIstar]

Chris Lincecum is the master at mechanics IMO at 56 years old he threw 88 mph fastball.

He understands mechanics and how the body works to throw hard.

I think we should all stop the talk about MM mechanics since it will go around and around and around.

[fastbal95]

RIstar,

Ok so is that his dad then? So because he could throw 88 at age 56 he knows everything about pitching??? Doc pitched competitively until very recently. He threw perfect game after perfect game in men's leagues until he hurt his shoulder when a closet fell on him. He still did his wrist weights and iron ball workouts. He pitched something like 400 innings a year.

If you told want to discuss MM mechanics then dont. Dont post anything on this thread or any threads where MM is being discussed.

[brett]

brett,

Im glad you are reading it. A couple questions though.

1. What does Olympic lifting has to do with pitching a baseball?

2. How was it determined that no amount of specific training could improve this?



Olympic lifting was brought up as an example of athletes benefitting from non-specific exercises.

It was determined because US lifters did 1000s of repetions of their primary lifts but always exhibited the postural weaknesses-revealved by slo mo.

The Russians did "not specific squatting", and their postural weaknesses were non existent.

Basically what I'm saying is that if someone lacks the leg strength to throw with proper, perfect form, then do we want to build the leg strength with non-specific squats which are a great leg strength builder, or with specific throws which are not a great leg strength builder.

Also, in multiple studies (Chu) of sprinters it was determined that sprinting did not improve sprinting speed. Sprinters literally ran 1000s of sprints of a specific distance and did not improve sprint speed. Then they used "slight" uphill and downhill sprinting and got faster.

So did increasing the strength of postural muscles (abs, obliques, lower back).

[beemax]

Do you really not know the difference Brett? Your dad was a scout right? He never explained it to you? Are you being serious or sarcastic?

I'm serious Joe. Tell me the difference with the continuous read gun. My Dad had a high school degree and really didn't like using his radar gun, so he didn't care to look up the difference.

Did Jim morris train like we do? NO. Did he even utilize the overload training principle? NO Again, you have no clue.

Joe, he threw 96. I have a video of Jeff Sparks throwing 80. Who has no clue here?

Translation: You just dont understand it. Its not my fault you cant comprehend this stuff.

Joe, I'm tired of this and frankly I might just stop posting on here. Put your money where your mouth is and prove to someone that you can get people out at a higher level than the Chicago Suburban Summer League.

[Jake Patterson]

It seems as though the learning has ceased... If we can't get past this I will have to shut the thread down.

Joe Please take this in the spirit in which it is intended. Many here have heard this for several years. Here's a few threads I started about Doc.
http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=58509
http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=48466
http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=61283

The bottom line is few feel there is any imperical evidence his method works. Defending a faith makes you a zealot, going out competing at a high level in pro ball throwing in the 90's makes you proof. Work hard and go succeed. Once this happens the skeptics will go away. All you are doing now is adding fuel to a fire you are trying to put out.

If we can't move on without the personal attacks the threads goes down.

[fastbal95]

Brett,

Do you know off hand why Jim Morris "retired" again from baseball? I have video of Jeff throwing well over 90 mph. Its on Doc's video on his website.

If you decide to quite posting here then thats your decision. Do whatever you want. Again with the talk of go pitch somewhere. Well the last time I checked, the Atlantic League has yet to start. But when the season does begin, I'll be sure to keep you up to date. Let me know how you do this season also. I'll be interested to see how you do. If you ever decide to trade the bat in for the mound, you are more than welcome to come and train with us.

You are smart and college educated so I'll leave it up to you to investigate for yourself the differences in radar guns. If you have read all of Doc's book, including chapter 30, then you would start to have an idea.

[kylebee]

If we can't move on without the personal attacks the threads goes down.

What's the difference, Jake? His rhetoric and terrible attitude fills the forum, not just this thread. Other posters who are supportive of Marshall's teachings can give as good of a viewpoint without the confrontation.

[Jake Patterson]

What's the difference, Jake? His rhetoric and terrible attitude fills the forum, not just this thread. Other posters who are supportive of Marshall's teachings can give as good of a viewpoint without the confrontation.
I could care less about filling the site or thread. For that type of activity there are other places to go. Here its about learning and if that stops the thread goes away.

[Jake Patterson]

Do you have a PhD, or let alone a degree in biology, kinesiology, exercise physiology, physics, or any science for that matter?
Who do you think is guiding all the professional teams out there? Please come to the World Baseball Convention and listen to the Ph.D.'s and Dr.'s who have the same or better credential than Doc talk about throwing. He is not the only one in pro ball with credentials and if they are presumed wrong why would someone presume Doc right?

[fastbal95]

Jake,

What people are running Major League organizations with PhD's? And not just PhD's in anything, but a PhD in exercise physiology or kinesiology? I would be willing to bet NONE. Im sure they are guys with degrees in the front office, but I'd be willing to bet their degrees have nothing to do with knowing how the body works. Prolly something like economics, business, that sort of thing.

Are they any farm directors with any sort of advanced degrees in anything science related? How about the pitching coaches? I dont think one of my pitching coaches had a degree in anything science related. Pretty much all of the pitching coaches that were in the Mets organization are ex pitchers. All they do is teach what they used when they played. You know what? Most have zippers on their arms or scars on their shoulders. Talk about the blind leading. I do know that Rick Peterson has a degree, but I believe its in psychology. Tell me how that helps with mechanics?

MD's know nothing of how the body works in relation to joint actions. There is no course in med school called kinesiology. They learn anatomy, sure. They know where certain things are, but they dont know how they help the body work in regards to pitching. All surgeons know how to do is how to operate. Thats what they do, they cut. I guess Im gonna have to quit baseball and go to med school so their just might be a doctor who also understands kinesiology, lol.

One more thing, do these guys with PhD's or MD's who guide professional teams take the blame for all the injuries, or do they just think, oh well, injuries just happen, its a freak thing?

[Jake Patterson]

Jake, What people are running Major League organizations with PhD's? And not just PhD's in anything, but a PhD in exercise physiology or kinesiology? I would be willing to bet NONE. Im sure they are guys with degrees in the front office, but I'd be willing to bet their degrees have nothing to do with knowing how the body works. Prolly something like economics, business, that sort of thing. Like I said Joe you need to go to events like the WBC and listen to the team physicians and exercise specialists. Every team has medical and exercise experts.

The rest I won't answer because you are not willing to listen to opposing views without pulling the credential card.

AGAIN, like I said in my PM to you NO ONE argues the fact that pitching is injurious. The discussion is about performance.

[beemax]

Brett,

You are still the one who has no clue.

If you decide to quite posting here then thats your decision. Do whatever you want. Again with the talk of go pitch somewhere. Well the last time I checked, the Atlantic League has yet to start. But when the season does begin, I'll be sure to keep you up to date. Let me know how you do this season also. I'll be interested to see how you do. If you ever decide to trade the bat in for the mound, you are more than welcome to come and train with us.


This will be my last post on a MM thread. I have spent too much time this offseason responding to this stuff and no point of view has changed on either side of the argument.

The fact of the matter remains that to this point not one of Doc's students who have trained with this current motion have played at any serious level where they have achieved any amount of success.

People on the MM side will argue that it takes time to learn the new delivery, which is true. But how much time does it take to prove that this motion is superior?

The injury debate will come up and when Jeff Sparks having TJ surgery long after he started working with Doc is brought up, MM defenders will refuse to say that Doc had anything to do with it.

For all the battling I have done on here the past 3 months, I have gotten to know some who have worked with Doc and had injury problems. Those who back up Doc's teachings will no doubt support the fact that it was their own fault they got hurt, and not Doc's. Whether or not this is true is up for debate, but the debate has gone nowhere on here for three months.

Joe, I hope you get your shot in the Atlantic League, I really do. I also hope that if you have success there, a big league affiliated team picks you up so you can get your shot there. I am not rooting against you at all.

I think it is very obvious that we have pretty opposite opinions of Doc's teachings. However, I will say it again, Doc's heart is in the right place when it comes to this. My opinion on that will never change. I have never met the man, just emailed him and he has been kind enough to respond to me.

In the end, I truly believe that the "evidence" that all of us who don't believe that this motion is superior ask for is a valid question. Asking to believe in something just because of an equation on paper or Doc having a PhD is not enough for me, I'm sorry. Evidence, when it comes to baseball, involves on-field success and/or failure. Not math equations and Newton's three laws of motion.

To Joe, and all the other guys who have trained and believe in Doc-its great that you guys have the passion and commitment to do what you do in z-hills. But if any of you want Doc's delivery to catch on anywhere outside of z-hills, get out and play. 280 days of training does not get you any closer to where you want to be, IMO.

Joe, I know you will probably disagree with a lot that I have just said, but its what I believe.

I have grown very tired of your insults in the past few days. I will repeat this one more time-Just because I don't believe in a lot of what Doc has to say does not make me, or anyone else who disagrees with you, stupid. I am tired of the back and forth talk that gets nowhere and ends up with insults. My advice, again, is to go out and perform and stop talking.

Good luck Joe, and good luck to those who want to continue arguing in this war of attrition. In the end Doc's delivery has to stand up to baseball on the field, not in a bullpen.

Of course, this is just my opinion. And the last one I will share here on this subject.

[fastbal95]

Jake,

You still didnt answer my question.

I dont listen to anyone else's opinions, because with everyone else, they do not know how to eliminate injuries. They try to limit injuries, which is commendable, but in Mike Marshall we have someone who is known for his longevity of his career (being the only reliever to ever qualify for the ERA title adn pitch in as many games as he did) and someone who says he knows how to eliminate all pitching arm injuries.

Why should I listen to someone who cannot guarentee that I will never get hurt doing what they teach?

Again, team physicians do NOT know kinesiology or exercise science. Those courses are not offered in medical school. What they learn how to do, if they are ortho's, is cut open people and shave, burn, reattach, and suture things.

No one in the Mets organization could tell me why I tore my labrum, that goes for the MD's all the way down to the trainers and coaches. They either had no answer, or they told me that I must have not been doing what they were telling me to do. Yet when I emailed Doc for the first time, he told me exactly what it was I was doing wrong and what I needed to change to fix it.

Its kind of hard to discuss performance when pitchers are on the shelve because of injuries, isnt is Jake?

You said this in one of your posts a while back:

"What these young men are doing is remarkable. While I do not profess to understand Dr. Marshall’s methods (yet), the affects of his training were very impressive. When comparing Doc’s guys to what I saw in the Pirates and Reds spring-training bullpens this week I would have to say Doc’s guys (The more senior ones at least) seemed to be throwing every bit as good and seemed to have a larger variety of pitches than the Pirates’ and Reds’ squads."

"And their breaking balls are - at best very difficult to track (I tried from the catcher’s position behind a net at the plate)."

And Chris O'Leary has said this:

"They throw multiple, high movement pitches and throw them all well."

Yet when people ask for proof or they doubt that Marshall pitchers can throw anything of worth, both of you say nothing. I dont understand it. I would think at the very least you could or would defend Marshall's stuff since you have seen it in person.

[Jake Patterson]

Circular argument
Jake,You still didnt answer my question.
I dont listen to anyone else's opinions, because with everyone else, they do not know how to eliminate injuries. They try to limit injuries, which is commendable, but in Mike Marshall we have someone who is known for his longevity of his career (being the only reliever to ever qualify for the ERA title adn pitch in as many games as he did) and someone who says he knows how to eliminate all pitching arm injuries.

Why should I listen to someone who cannot guarentee that I will never get hurt doing what they teach?

Again, team physicians do NOT know kinesiology or exercise science. Those courses are not offered in medical school. What they learn how to do, if they are ortho's, is cut open people and shave, burn, reattach, and suture things.

No one in the Mets organization could tell me why I tore my labrum, that goes for the MD's all the way down to the trainers and coaches. They either had no answer, or they told me that I must have not been doing what they were telling me to do. Yet when I emailed Doc for the first time, he told me exactly what it was I was doing wrong and what I needed to change to fix it.
Joe again you mix the injury arguement with the performance arguement. I am NOT defending the medical and exercise experts in pro ball. I feel most are morons.

Its kind of hard to discuss performance when pitchers are on the shelve because of injuries, isnt is Jake? No it's not. Again we agree there are way too many injuries in baseball especially youth ball. I am all for changing the way in which we teach throwing. The problem is many parents/coaches are willing to take the risk - I was and I was able to get my boys through baseball with no injuries. Show them a way that they can understand to be successful while being injury free, people will bite. Brow beating them into submission won't work. Others have tried that tactic and drove the cause back years..

You said this in one of your posts a while back:
"What these young men are doing is remarkable. While I do not profess to understand Dr. Marshall’s methods (yet), the affects of his training were very impressive. When comparing Doc’s guys to what I saw in the Pirates and Reds spring-training bullpens this week I would have to say Doc’s guys (The more senior ones at least) seemed to be throwing every bit as good and seemed to have a larger variety of pitches than the Pirates’ and Reds’ squads."

"And their breaking balls are - at best very difficult to track (I tried from the catcher’s position behind a net at the plate)." And I meant every word.. The problem is none of them made it!

And Chris O'Leary has said this: "They throw multiple, high movement pitches and throw them all well."
Yet when people ask for proof or they doubt that Marshall pitchers can throw anything of worth, both of you say nothing. I dont understand it. I would think at the very least you could or would defend Marshall's stuff since you have seen it in person. See above! throwing in a bull pen as you know is different than facing down a Major Leaguer in front of 25,000 people. I have always defended what Doc is trying to do. The fact of the matter is that neither the youth leagues or pro ball has bought in, nor has he had a poster boy. That's the facts... So I believe... Big deal - at the end of the day we still teach injurious methods and parents and coaches remain willing to take risks as was I.

[Dirtberry]

Jake,

I would suggest, redacting mean and personal attacks with an individual with an explanation for why. Some personality tolerance should be considered but trashing the whole thread would not be towards the advancement of knowledge. I while very frustrated with false statements made by people who have no physical experience with these mechanics do believe we need to go through this process.

Half of my current pitchers are still throwing using "traditional mechanics"
but they all understand it's a crap shoot for injuries!

I remember when I first started with these mechanics on myself, I was just about done with throwing to my batters live, and my arm was almost dead. I only started with MMm because of that period. Now I am throwing 800 to 1200 pitches daily with half of those max effort. No pain, increased velocity and same command. I have not dosed a kid in 10 years. The big difference is now I have a cutter to throw at College batters. I do fully understand why the skepticism but I do not understand the viciousness of the attacks on it and seldom see hand slapping of those posters.

“better credential than Doc talk about throwing”
I was unaware that you could achieve a Doctorate in the second degree?
We need to remember that Marshall taught at the university level for many years. He has challenged anybody who would like to debate the physiological and kinesiological efficacy of his claims; he even signed up and started discussing them at the ASMI message board and asked direct questions to their managers and got no response. All of the material in his texts from then has not changes at all. I do see lazy general trainers push general training as the only way to train and then bad mouth “Sport specificness” instead of adding it in to their routines.

I do agree with your statement a few months ago that the change will have to come from the bottom up and we will have to do a better job with marketing.

[Baseball gLove]

I am still waiting though, for what EXACT parts of Newton's laws are we missing or leaving out, seriously?


Again, you cannot compare a traditional pitcher to a marshall pitcher, genetics are different in everyone. You would need to compare someone who used to throw traditionally and changed and now throws using MM mechanics.

We've already been through the whole bike analogy and I have showed that what Dm was talking about was rediculous. If you get thrown off the bike, you arent going to be going any faster than the bike was actually going. Hence, when you stomp your foot into the ground, stop your body, stop the ball from moving forward at all, and even have it moving backwards, there is no way that you can accelerate your upper body faster because your upper body is attached to your lower body, your pitching leg which is back behind your body at release, by way off your ass.

Just like that 2x4 on the cart isnt going to be accelerated when the cart comes to a stop.

You'd be correct, however in Newton's perfect world the 2x4 would continue at the same speed until another force acted on it. Pitchers don't use only momentum to throw the ball. You obviously don't get it that we also use our hips and torso and arm to add velocity to the momentum.

Traditional pitchers are able to achieve higher velocities and better control with less specialty training than Marshall's pitchers.


Again, if loading your hips, turning your foot perpendicular, is so much better, faster, etc... than moving in a straight line, why dont sprinters start like that then? It is was more powerful, they would start sideways, yet they do NOT. They start straight on and push using their quads instead of their adductor brevis.

Sprinters are not going to throw an object. They are only running in a mostly straight line in a single direction. Is that a difficult concept that The sprinters are not going to throw anything?

[fastbal95]

Baseball Love,

AGAIN, what specifically are we missing from Newton's Laws. What EXACTLY? Can you even tell me? Doesnt sound like it.

Here is the problem with the "traditional" motion. Instead of using Newton's 3 Laws of the guide to construct a throwing motion, like Mike Marshall has done, you use Newton's Laws and try to apply them the best you can to the "traditional" motion. You use it as your baseline, thinking that there is no other way to throw. Your logic is broken.

Thanks

[Jake Patterson]

Dirt, Good post. Several comments....
Jake,I would suggest, redacting mean and personal attacks with an individual with an explanation for why. Not certain what you mean here.
Some personality tolerance should be considered but trashing the whole thread would not be towards the advancement of knowledge. I agree and I feel we have allowed for that here at BBF. At last look this thread has had 1780 views.
There will always be some "excitement" when discussing new methods, especially when the discussion includes those who feel so passionate about what they offer.
I while very frustrated with false statements made by people who have no physical experience with these mechanics do believe we need to go through this process. AT some point Dirt you have to back off and provide what people ask for. As I have stated several times the injurious nature of what we do is not in question - performance is. And the continued attempts at confusing the two frustrates both sides of the argument.
Half of my current pitchers are still throwing using "traditional mechanics"but they all understand it's a crap shoot for injuries! We all are in this boat. I have made several modifications to the way in which I teach throwing. Is it enough? Probably not.

I took out the next paragraph...I have no issue with a modified method being less painful. I use it myself. Had I not found something that allows me to throw I probably would have quit coaching. It would be that frustrating for me. BUT... I don't throw competitively.

“better credential than Doc talk about throwing”
I was unaware that you could achieve a Doctorate in the second degree?
We need to remember that Marshall taught at the university level for many years. He has challenged anybody who would like to debate the physiological and kinesiological efficacy of his claims; he even signed up and started discussing them at the ASMI message board and asked direct questions to their managers and got no response. All of the material in his texts from then has not changes at all. I do see lazy general trainers push general training as the only way to train and then bad mouth “Sport specificness” instead of adding it in to their routines. There are athletic specialist for each major league team. I met Michael Joyce, Biren Chockshi and many many others who specialize in sport medicine... all Ph.D's and MD's who have dedicated their lives to athletics and sport injury prevention. Chockshi did a great presentation at our clinic last year that very graphically showed the damage we do to young people. I hate to get into the "my doctor can beat up your doctor" discussion. It brings little value to moving the discussion along. The bottom line is pitching is a risk reward endeavor, whether we accept it or not. People are asking -telling- that I am willing to accept the risk if it means PERFORMANCE. That is the side of the equation on which you need to work. Demonstrate it can work at the highest level and all this goes away.

I do agree with your statement a few months ago that the change will have to come from the bottom up and we will have to do a better job with marketing. Maybe that is the tactic you need to take. Personally I have found the youth leagues less willing to listen than the adults. I could spend hours on the travesty that is occurring with bat safety and the fallacies of travel ball and the damage we do to our young men in organizations like the USSSA, AAU etc... All one needs to do is visit the USSSA's standings page and see the U4 National Standings (What a joke- I call it diaper ball).

Beating the same horse will not further the discussion. People have heard it all. We either have to convince organizations like Little League to change or there has to be success at the highest level. None of this is different than it was several years back. For guys like Joe I say stop the arguing and go prove the sceptics wrong.

No coach, and I mean no coach would dismiss a technique that has a high level of success.

[Baseball gLove]

Baseball Love,

AGAIN, what specifically are we missing from Newton's Laws. What EXACTLY? Can you even tell me? Doesnt sound like it.

Here is the problem with the "traditional" motion. Instead of using Newton's 3 Laws of the guide to construct a throwing motion, like Mike Marshall has done, you use Newton's Laws and try to apply them the best you can to the "traditional" motion. You use it as your baseline, thinking that there is no other way to throw. Your logic is broken.

Thanks

Says who? You? Newton's laws cannot be broken. Your logic is what is broken. We've been going round and round in circles. In this last post of yours you are playing dumb. I already told you, a long time ago, that that you guys leave potential energy on the table . Why are we going over it again? I answered a long time ago that the foot plant redirects energy back up our legs. It satisfies Newtons laws of equal and opposite AND conservation of momentum. Because our mass is much less than the ground, it is our body that gets the redirected energy from the ground when we plant, NOT STOMP, but plant our foot to initiate the firing of our kinetic chain that actually was developed over millions of years ago in order to throw rocks and spears for food and protection. If you crash into the ground, you might scrape a little dirt, but it is your body that will absorb most of the energy from Newton's conservation of momentum. You just discarded the scientific fact that the energy from the pole plant by pole vaulter is redirected back up the pole bending it between the ground and the vaulter transferring potential energy into the bend so that when it straightens it launches the vaulter up to 20 feet in the air.

I haven't discussed another aspect that gives traditional pitchers more momentum, it is the kick. What the kick does is it transfers weight up then down. This is where you can feel the crow hop rhythm. Well trained pitchers don't stand like a flamingo to balance; it is a weight transfer mechanism.

I don't dispute that you use Newton's Laws, I do dispute that you use them to an advantage over traditional pitchers when the facts prove otherwise. What facts? The FACT that there are NO Marshall pitchers of note or otherwise in the MLB or Division 1. Your last pitcher was in 2000. That is 7 years. After 7 years of absence Marshall's Mechanics could be pronounced legally dead.

Using your logic a guy that would throw 70 mph ( a lot of 13 years & 14 year olds easily throw this hard) could reach 90 mph using Marshall Mechanics. Guys that throw 80 mph (a lot of 15's & 16's can throw this hard) should be able to throw 100 mph using Marshall Mechanics. Guys that throw 85 -90 mph (a few 17's & 18's can do this) should be able to throw 105-110 mph using Marshall Mechanics. Why is this not happening? Regression? You guys seem to have a problem reaching 90 mph. How fast did you throw before you converted? Do you really think you are going to add 20 mph? PROVE IT. But you can't, can you?

[TG Coach]

I feel everyone here hopes you succeed, but until you do some will see what you say as rhetoric.

At least he's mastered lashing out and insulting everyone who disagrees with him, even though has not provided any evidence while everyone else can provide lists of MLB, all-star and HOF pitchers with traditional techniques.

Note: Expect the redundant injury list as a response even though there's no evidence from the field of competition and history, Marshall's mechanics prevents injury.

[TG Coach]

Chris Lincecum is the master at mechanics IMO at 56 years old he threw 88 mph fastball.

He understands mechanics and how the body works to throw hard.

I think we should all stop the talk about MM mechanics since it will go around and around and around.

"Around and around and around" was a few hundred laps ago. Welcome to the Marshall 500.

[jamesh23]

how much velocity can I gain if I do the 6lb ball, 10lb wrist weight thing that was posted earlier? im 15 and hit high 60's low 70's. I have some arm pain now and need to get rid of it... all of a sudden cuz I have arm pain im not allowed to post about throwing on this forum... its BS. So im intending this question to fastbal and dirtberry thanks

also where is ASMI? is it a forum? i would like to look at it.

edit: is it american sports medical institute?

[TG Coach]

how much velocity can I gain if I do the 6lb ball, 10lb wrist weight thing that was posted earlier? im 15 and hit high 60's low 70's. I have some arm pain now and need to get rid of it... all of a sudden cuz I have arm pain im not allowed to post about throwing on this forum... its BS. So im intending this question to fastbal and dirtberry thanks

also where is ASMI? is it a forum? i would like to look at it.

edit: is it american sports medical institute?

Do some work yourself? Get on a search engine and do a search.

[jamesh23]

Do some work yourself? Get on a search engine and do a search.

about what? I found out what the site was.... there is no info about throwing a shot put around and swinging 10lb wrist weights...

[Dirtberry]

B25 .... I once wrote Marshall a very polite email about the methods of sharing his information used by some poster last year and how it probably turns of many people who otehrwise might investigate. He responded he didn't care how they act as long as the message gets out. Then he called me a child abuser for letting my son pitch in LL.

Look at his website, his materials and his lack of tact. The man obviously has no sense at all regarding marketing. He believes he's right and he's going to jam it down everyone's throat with redicule, if necessary. Then he blames conspiracy for the resistance.

TG, would this be the question? This is Question #106. from the 2006 letters on drmikemarshall.com. We can let the readers decide if this is a polite email from TG. We can let anyone on the site that believes men of good will should have at least a modicum of honesty comment. Shame on you.



108. One of your cult following has be en harassing the Eteamz website. If we don't agree with everything you preach he calls us child abusers and ignorant. While I don't believe you had much of a following in the first place at Eteamz, most of the posters absolutely detest your theories now due to the obnoxious behavior of this person. I'm especially angry as he's made it personal by bringing my son into every post.

He claims he exchanges information on your site often. He goes by Kharma. From what I understand, he's been kicked off several other websites for his ranting and obnoxious behavior. This man is a Marshall cultist. Is this how you want to create a name for yourself?



-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Dr Marshall responds: On my website, I answer questions from anybody. It makes no difference to me whether questioners phrase their questions or comments obnoxiously.

I want to make it very clear that only I speak for me. Nobody else speaks for me. And, I have never asked anybody to speak for me. Whatever my readers do on other websites is their business and their opinions, not mine. It is called, 'free speech,' and the Constitution of the United States of America protects it.

Nevertheless, if you would be so kind as to provide the question or discussion topic that caused this gentleman to call people child abusers and ignorant, I will be glad to provide my thoughts.

[Dirtberry]

how much velocity can I gain if I do the 6lb ball, 10lb wrist weight thing that was posted earlier? im 15 and hit high 60's low 70's. I have some arm pain now and need to get rid of it... all of a sudden cuz I have arm pain im not allowed to post about throwing on this forum... its BS. So im intending this question to fastbal and dirtberry thanks

also where is ASMI? is it a forum? i would like to look at it.

edit: is it american sports medical institute?

Jamesh23,

While I personally believe the heavy ball and wrist weights improve velocity,
I am probably wrong and what Dr.Marshall says is right.
He makes no velocity claims from heavy ball and wrist weight training, he states that it will make you stronger (bones get larger, tendons, Ligaments and muscles thicken), so you can withstand the tremendous ballistic forces that are created from maximum effort throwing. He states what all physiologists suggest that to throw fast you must have the favorable ratio of Fast twitch to slow twitch muscle fiber. He trains speed by throwing a 5.5 oz. Baseball maximally from a mound. This puts his speed training in the underload category which primarily works on your Fast twitch 1’s and 2 ‘s (Ballistic).

[Jake Patterson]

108. One of your cult following has be en harassing the Eteamz website. If we don't agree with everything you preach he calls us child abusers and ignorant. While I don't believe you had much of a following in the first place at Eteamz, most of the posters absolutely detest your theories now due to the obnoxious behavior of this person. I'm especially angry as he's made it personal by bringing my son into every post.

He claims he exchanges information on your site often. He goes by Kharma. From what I understand, he's been kicked off several other websites for his ranting and obnoxious behavior. This man is a Marshall cultist. Is this how you want to create a name for yourself?
-------------------------
Dr Marshall responds: On my website, I answer questions from anybody. It makes no difference to me whether questioners phrase their questions or comments obnoxiously.

I want to make it very clear that only I speak for me. Nobody else speaks for me. And, I have never asked anybody to speak for me. Whatever my readers do on other websites is their business and their opinions, not mine. It is called, 'free speech,' and the Constitution of the United States of America protects it.

Nevertheless, if you would be so kind as to provide the question or discussion topic that caused this gentleman to call people child abusers and ignorant, I will be glad to provide my thoughts.
----------------------------
Dirt,

I am all for Doc and what he is trying to do, but you are what people perceive you to be - not what you perceive yourself as. Their are several problem with what Doc teaches.

1. Change comes through evolution or revolution. Until there is a class action suit against an organization like Little League or until Doc has several high performers successful at the MLB level the change will only happen through evolution.

2. Given the above - evolution by its very definition means change over time. Doc does not provide a the message to struggling coaches in a manner in which they can understand. This is what leads to the contentiousness every time the topic is discussed. The average guy between the chalk lines is a dad up to his a$$ in life. Reading Doc's material, leaning something completely alien, or even attempting to understand what Doc is saying is not possible. In spite of the Major League statistics on arm injuries their are tens of thousands of children who will not play the game past 13 and many of those who do will not develop problems. I have yet to have an arm problem. Why would you call these coaches abusers??

3. Doc needs a tiered approach to the change he seeks. The consumer does not want the product he is selling as it does not meet the consumer's needs, either from a performance standpoint or from an ease in training or understanding standpoint. Others have picked up the gauntlet and are modifying the traditional movement so that there is a discernible performance benefit while being easier to teach.

4. The coaches are screaming "give me something I can use and understand" - the answer is always the same. Change your approach. These are not abusers of children- they are dads trying to do the best they can.

[regionman]

Mr. RIstar,

I believe you have this situation a little backwards. The question is not, "Can you prove MM mechanics improves velocity force to pitches", the question is, "Can traditional pitching techniques prove that they can maximize velocity force and eliminate pitching arm injuries".

Can you offer me imperical proof?

[Jake Patterson]

Mr. RIstar,

I believe you have this situation a little backwards. The question is not, "Can you prove MM mechanics improves velocity force to pitches", the question is, "Can traditional pitching techniques prove that they can maximize velocity force and eliminate pitching arm injuries".

Can you offer me imperical proof?

Respectufully disagree. This may be YOUR question, but it is not that of those seeking performance evidence.

[regionman]

----------------------------
Dirt,

I am all for Doc and what he is trying to do, but you are what people perceive you to be - not what you perceive yourself as. Their are several problem with what Doc teaches.

1. Change comes through evolution or revolution. Until there is a class action suit against an organization like Little League or until Doc has several high performers successful at the MLB level the change will only happen through evolution.

2. Given the above - evolution by its very definition means change over time. Doc does not provide a the message to struggling coaches in a manner in which they can understand. This is what leads to the contentiousness every time the topic is discussed. The average guy between the chalk lines is a dad up to his a$$ in life. Reading Doc's material, leaning something completely alien, or even attempting to understand what Doc is saying is not possible. In spite of the Major League statistics on arm injuries their are tens of thousands of children who will not play the game past 13 and many of those who do will not develop problems. I have yet to have an arm problem. Why would you call these coaches abusers??

3. Doc needs a tiered approach to the change he seeks. The consumer does not want the product he is selling as it does not meet the consumer's needs, either from a performance standpoint or from an ease in training or understanding standpoint. Others have picked up the gauntlet and are modifying the traditional movement so that there is a discernible performance benefit while being easier to teach.

4. The coaches are screaming "give me something I can use and understand" - the answer is always the same. Change your approach. These are not abusers of children- they are dads trying to do the best they can.

Jake Patterson,

You mention there several problems with what Doc teaches.

1. Class action lawsuits are not under the control of MM, and is not a MM teaching problem. When MM pitchers attend tryout camps and receive accolades from the coaches, but are denied any opportunities, that is not MM's fault or teaching problem either.

2. You do not give the "dads who are up to their a$$ in life" as you so call it enough intellectual credit. I was exactly one of those dads. I learned MM's program online and thru his DVD. I taught myself, and my sons. They are using MM's technique. They understand it, and I understand it. If you cannot understand it, that is not MM's fault or teaching problem. If most kids will not play past the age of 13, as you say, then why go to all the trouble of giving them any training at all...be it MM or Trad? That's not Doc's teaching problem either.

3. What Doc teaches meets the consumer's needs perfectly. You say the consumer does not want what he teaches. What evidence do you have of this? You speak of "performance", and "ease in training". Nothing worth while is easy...nothing. Would you want your brain surgeon to take a short cut and make a 5 hour surgery last on 1 hour...if you were the patient? Just because people wish to take shortcuts to excellence, and become frustrated with the lack of results is not Doc's teaching problem either.

4. You say coaches are screaming " give me something I can use and understand". I refer to the answer for statement #2. Again, this is not a problem with Doc. Do you have actual written evidence of Doc stating that "Dads are child abusers"? If not, then that is certainly not Doc's problem, but it could be yours.

To summarize, there are zero problems with what Doc teaches, only problems with what people choose to do with it. That is their problem, not his.

I pitched at very high levels of baseball several years ago, and I have learned something very important. High performance athletes in any sport must work very hard at their craft if they are to be the best.

But even today, most people look at baseball players, and pitchers in particular as being lazy and dumb. Sadly, I find that to be the case more often than not. In fact in some circles I hear pitching coaches who will actually tell pitchers they think too much...they are too smart to pitch. It makes me sick to hear that.

Look at other sports. Gymnasts, figure skaters, and most Olympic athletes train diligently every day from the time they are only a few years old until many years later when they become world class. It takes dedication and years of hard work to become the best you can be. Baseball pitching should be no different.

There are no shortcuts to pitching excellence. Everyone wants a quick fix, a magic bullet. It doesn't exist. If you are not willing to work hard and learn, truly learn, as a coach or a pitcher, then just play recreational ball. That's fine.

But if you want to be the best pitcher you can be, then you had better be ready to out-dedicate, out-work, and out-persevere the best attributes of any football, basketball, or soccer players' work ethic, or you are not doing yourself justice.

[regionman]

Respectufully disagree. This may be YOUR question, but it is not that of those seeking performance evidence.

Again Jake I ask the question, "Can you offer imperical proof the Trad pitching motion guarantees the maximum usage of the human body and injury proffs the arm?"

[Baseball gLove]

Again Jake I ask the question, "Can you offer imperical proof the Trad pitching motion guarantees the maximum usage of the human body and injury proffs the arm?"


What does imperical mean? Oh, you meant empirical. Don't hurt yourself now.

Jake is a moderator here. He is not in charge of the MLB, MiLB, NCAA. Why does he need to provide empirical proof to you? No, I believe the burden of proof is on you.

Can you prove that pitchers with Marshall's mechanics have the velocity and control to make it in the MLB? Prove it. Provide names of pitchers currently in the MLB using 100% Marshall mechanics. You can't. Which groupie are you? A pitcher or a coach? So far the Traditional motion while risky from a safety standpoint offers vastly superior velocity and control. You can not prove otherwise until you have a pitcher in the MLB throwing in a game.

[jima]

Good gosh there's another "follower" out there that says that we haven't bought into MM because we haven't done research; we haven't dedicated ourselves appropriately; and, finally, we all have an intelligence deficit. What is with you guys? teach your kids to throw anyway you want but give the evangelical rants a rest, we've heard it all before.

[fastbal95]

Dirt,

great post about TG's email to Doc. It doesnt look like Doc called anyone a child abuser anywhere.

TG, was this you "polite" email to Doc??????

If so, sounds like you've been full of BS all along.

[regionman]

What does imperical mean? Oh, you meant empirical. Don't hurt yourself now.

Jake is a moderator here. He is not in charge of the MLB, MiLB, NCAA. Why does he need to provide empirical proof to you? No, I believe the burden of proof is on you.

Can you prove that pitchers with Marshall's mechanics have the velocity and control to make it in the MLB? Prove it. Provide names of pitchers currently in the MLB using 100% Marshall mechanics. You can't. Which groupie are you? A pitcher or a coach? So far the Traditional motion while risky from a safety standpoint offers vastly superior velocity and control. You can not prove otherwise until you have a pitcher in the MLB throwing in a game.

You are correct. I did mean "emperical", lol. Now, back to business.

Did I say that Jake was in charge of MLB, MiLB, NCAA, or any other sports league? I only asked a question. So far no one has been able to answer it. A tactic of someone who cannot answer questions is normally to change the subject, which is what you have done.

Can you give any evidence to support your traditional pitching mechanics theories?

[Baseball gLove]

You are correct. I did mean "emperical", lol. Now, back to business.

Did I say that Jake was in charge of MLB, MiLB, NCAA, or any other sports league? I only asked a question. So far no one has been able to answer it. A tactic of someone who cannot answer questions is normally to change the subject, which is what you have done.

Can you give any evidence to support your traditional pitching mechanics theories?

Yes, I can. Traditional pitchers pitch in the MLB. You guys don't.

[regionman]

Thousands of others don't get the chance, or destroy their arms while they are playing. There is tons of evidence to support that major legue rosters are loaded with dead armed pitchers in rehab. The MLB surgeons are making a killing! How can you turn a blind eye to that fact?

Fellows, the fact is MLB pitchers get to that level in spite of the trad motion, not because of it. They get there because they can naturally throw hard for a little while.

Why do you not see infielders or outfielders reverse rotate their hips and shoulders? Why do they crow hop and take the ball up to drive line height before they throw?

Fellows...the evidence is in MLB. In right before your very eyes.

[Jake Patterson]

OK we'll try this again...
You mention there several problems with what Doc teaches.
1. Class action lawsuits are not under the control of MM, and is not a MM teaching problem. When MM pitchers attend tryout camps and receive accolades from the coaches, but are denied any opportunities, that is not MM's fault or teaching problem either.
I am not implying it is! What I said is evolution or revolution and a class action suit against LLI would be revolution. My comment has nothing to do with Doc. It has everything to do with change.

2. You do not give the "dads who are up to their a$$ in life" as you so call it enough intellectual credit. I was exactly one of those dads. I learned MM's program online and thru his DVD. I taught myself, and my sons. They are using MM's technique. They understand it, and I understand it. If you cannot understand it, that is not MM's fault or teaching problem. If most kids will not play past the age of 13, as you say, then why go to all the trouble of giving them any training at all...be it MM or Trad? That's not Doc's teaching problem either. Ok What does this have to do with what people are asking for?

3. What Doc teaches meets the consumer's needs perfectly. You say the consumer does not want what he teaches. What evidence do you have of this? The hundreds of coaches I interact with on an annual basis, the professional pitching coaches I talk to at Spring training, the HS and College coaches I speak with at the WBC. If the consumer wanted this they would be lining up at the door. Please don;t confuse me with a naysayer I was pointing out the problem in selling the product. If you feel Doc is reaching all he should then so be it.

You speak of "performance", and "ease in training". Nothing worth while is easy...nothing. Again... OK don't disagree. Your arguing the wrong points.
Would you want your brain surgeon to take a short cut and make a 5 hour surgery last on 1 hour...if you were the patient? Just because people wish to take shortcuts to excellence, and become frustrated with the lack of results is not Doc's teaching problem either. Again, I don't see how this argument furthers the discussion. Take it upon yourself to go to Little League and see how far you get.

4. You say coaches are screaming " give me something I can use and understand". I refer to the answer for statement #2. Again, this is not a problem with Doc. If Doc sees it this way so be it. At the end of the day thousands of coaches are using traditional methods.

Do you have actual written evidence of Doc stating that "Dads are child abusers"? If not, then that is certainly not Doc's problem, but it could be yours. No but I do have evidence those who have followed Doc have. I have always stated that I felt Doc was a gentleman. I have never stated he said this. I refer to his followers who have set the movement back years because of their inability to discuss in a manner that people will listen. This is not my issue.

To summarize, there are zero problems with what Doc teaches, only problems with what people choose to do with it. That is their problem, not his. That's fine- I have no problem with this point of view. If this is the case then you should find a format of like minds.

I pitched at very high levels of baseball several years ago, and I have learned something very important. High performance athletes in any sport must work very hard at their craft if they are to be the best. Preaching to the choir...

But even today, most people look at baseball players, and pitchers in particular as being lazy and dumb. Sadly, I find that to be the case more often than not. In fact in some circles I hear pitching coaches who will actually tell pitchers they think too much...they are too smart to pitch. It makes me sick to hear that. My experience is the opposite.

There are no shortcuts to pitching excellence. Everyone wants a quick fix, a magic bullet. It doesn't exist. If you are not willing to work hard and learn, truly learn, as a coach or a pitcher, then just play recreational ball. That's fine. Again no argument.

But if you want to be the best pitcher you can be, then you had better be ready to out-dedicate, out-work, and out-persevere the best attributes of any football, basketball, or soccer players' work ethic, or you are not doing yourself justice.Work ethic and techniques are two different topics that should not be confused. The same for performance and injury. while they remain linked each has a place in a reasonable discussion.

[Jake Patterson]

Again Jake I ask the question, "Can you offer imperical proof the Trad pitching motion guarantees the maximum usage of the human body and injury proffs the arm?" Not in the sense you are seeking. I am advocating change - have I not made that clear. I am saying what's out there right now does not work from a teaching standpoint nor is it reaching the coaches that it should. You woul have to know me to know how off-mark your argument is.

[Jake Patterson]

It doesnt look like Doc called anyone a child abuser anywhere.

I have never heard Doc say this.. I have heard his followers say this.

[fastbal95]

Jake,

I didnt say you did. TG said Doc did. If the email that Dirt put up was the one he is refering to, then TG is full of BS.

[Jake Patterson]

Thousands of others don't get the chance, or destroy their arms while they are playing. There is tons of evidence to support that major legue rosters are loaded with dead armed pitchers in rehab. The MLB surgeons are making a killing! How can you turn a blind eye to that fact? NOBODY HAS!! We agree it's a problem! We agree there are too many injuries in baseball! We agree the manner in which we teach throwing is injurious! No one is turning a blind eye! the ONLY blind eye that is turned is on the empirical evidence that Doc's methods work. Without that evidence people are willing (as I was) to take the risk. Many of us were able to get hundreds of player through the game to what ever level they wanted to play without injury.

To move this discussion in any reasonable direction you have to acknowledge and speak to the performance issues and stop bringing in injuries. Everyone agrees with you on this aspect.

[fastbal95]

Jake Patterson:

"Who do you think is guiding all the professional teams out there? Please come to the World Baseball Convention and listen to the Ph.D.'s and Dr.'s who have the same or better credential than Doc talk about throwing. He is not the only one in pro ball with credentials and if they are presumed wrong why would someone presume Doc right?"

Jake Patterson:

"I am NOT defending the medical and exercise experts in pro ball. I feel most are morons."

Which one is it Jake? Either there are guys who are qualified to teach pitching and prevent injuries or there arent.

[fastbal95]

Jake,

First of all I dont think you can say NOBODY has.

Secondly, I dont want to put words into your mouth, but you can tell me if this is what you think.

You think that the way people are teaching pitching IS injurious. Yet, someone has come out and said that they have found a way for people to pitch injury free, and at the same time, have higher quality pitches and better velocity. Yet instead of taking what this man has said, and started teaching it, you STILL teach the same pitching motion which you know to be injurious, just because you say no one has "made it" yet.

To me, that just sounds hipocrital that someone would teach a pitching motion they know to be injurious just because they havent seen anyone in the ML's use it. Just my opinions.

[Jake Patterson]

Jake Patterson:

"Who do you think is guiding all the professional teams out there? Please come to the World Baseball Convention and listen to the Ph.D.'s and Dr.'s who have the same or better credential than Doc talk about throwing. He is not the only one in pro ball with credentials and if they are presumed wrong why would someone presume Doc right?"

Jake Patterson:

"I am NOT defending the medical and exercise experts in pro ball. I feel most are morons."

Which one is it Jake? Either there are guys who are qualified to teach pitching and prevent injuries or there arent.
You missed the point Joe. You keep bringing up Doc's credentials not me. I was merely giving some reference.

Look, you guys keep arguing with me as if I am the problem. I am trying to give you constructive critiscim as to why a non-traditional method has not taken hold in youth sports. Do with the information what you will. If getting the message out is the goal then YOU, not me are in a better position to answer that question. All you have to do is find out how many students are signed up and how many DVD's have been sold. For a reference there are approximately 200,000 Little League coaches. How many have you reached?

I am not looking for an answer to the above. You can decide for yourself...

[Jake Patterson]

To me, that just sounds hipocrital that someone would teach a pitching motion they know to be injurious just because they havent seen anyone in the ML's use it. Just my opinions.
Yes and I teach my players how to field ground balls knowing that some of them are going to take one in the chops. I teach hitting knowing someone will eventually get hit by a pitch. I teach sliding knowing there is a risk of spraining an ankle or knee. I teach how to tag a runner knowing that it may result in a tag in a painful spot, I teach how to block the plate knowing somone will get bowled over, I teach how to track a fly ball knowing there will be collisions.... It's all part of the game! Risk is part of the game.

[Baseball gLove]

Yes and I teach my players how to field ground balls knowing that some of them are going to take one in the chops. I teach hitting knowing someone will eventually get hit by a pitch. I teach sliding knowing there is a risk of spraining an ankle or knee. I teach how to tag a runner knowing that it may result in a tag in a painful spot, I teach how to block the plate knowing somone will get bowled over, I teach how to track a fly ball knowing there will be collisions.... It's all part of the game! Risk is part of the game.

:applaud:

If you don't want to get hurt, don't play.

[regionman]

As for the sarcasm stemming from jima's comments about "followers" and using the term "intelligence deficit", I will make allowances this time because of your youth. But in the future if you wish to have an intelligent exchange of ideas about the subject of baseball pitching, I hope that you will keep it civilized. If not, you will be missing out on alot.

When I said that pitching coaches tell their pitchers not to think, and that some pitching coaches actually believe some of their pitchers are "too smart" to pitch, I am merely repeating what some minor league coaches tell me. This is not "my labeling" of pitchers in general. I actually had one Phillies pitching coach tell me, " It doesn't matter what I tell my pitchers, as long as they think I believe it, they will do whatever I tell them, whether it's right or wrong". You tell me if that man thinks the intelligence level of his pitchers is.

I do not wish to start arguments. I simply do not want the same thing that happend to my arm happen to you young fellows. Unless you are at least 28 years old today, you were not born when I was gassing 96 mph heaters past soon to be MLB players, using the trad pitching method, while also unknowingly destroying my elbow and shoulder.

By that time everything came to a screaching halt. For the last 3 years I have been using and teaching the MM method with great results. I have been on both sides of the fence. 28 years ago, if I would have know then what I know now, I calculate I would have been able to consistently increase my then mid 90's fastball by 3 to 4 mph. I would have been able to explode breaking balls off my release. And I could have done it all with no arm stress.

Gentlemen, I have thrown thousands of baseballs after mastering both styles. I have done my own analysis. I tried to dispute MM's style for over a year as I was learning it. The more I did it, the more I mastered it, the better it got. I started out as an experiment to see if I could disprove it. I couldn't.

The hardest part was I had to swallow my own pride, and tell myself I had to forget everything I thought I knew about throwing a baseball, and relearn.

"Evangelical rant"? Call it what you will. You see, you young boys have not been around long enough to try everything yet. You have not had serious arm injuries yet, (hopefully).
On the other hand, I have seen it all...really all. The Dick Mills, Tom Houses, Strom, Wolforth, etc, etc. The list goes on and on. I've had every arm injury you can imagine.

I'm just trying to get you guys to think about the fact there is one perfect way for a human body to throw a baseball with 100% efficency and 100% effectiveness. You can do it now, or you can wait until serious injury puts and end to your dreams.

What's it gonna be? I just hope that some day you won't regret the fact that you should have listened to some old guy who couldn't spell "empirical" correctly.

[regionman]

As for the sarcasm stemming from jima's comments about "followers" and using the term "intelligence deficit", I will make allowances this time because of your youth. But in the future if you wish to have an intelligent exchange of ideas about the subject of baseball pitching, I hope that you will keep it civilized. If not, you will be missing out on alot.

When I said that pitching coaches tell their pitchers not to think, and that some pitching coaches actually believe some of their pitchers are "too smart" to pitch, I am merely repeating what some minor league coaches tell me. This is not "my labeling" of pitchers in general. I actually had one Phillies pitching coach tell me, " It doesn't matter what I tell my pitchers, as long as they think I believe it, they will do whatever I tell them, whether it's right or wrong". You tell me if that man thinks the intelligence level of his pitchers is.

I do not wish to start arguments. I simply do not want the same thing that happend to my arm happen to you young fellows. Unless you are at least 28 years old today, you were not born when I was gassing 96 mph heaters past soon to be MLB players, using the trad pitching method, while also unknowingly destroying my elbow and shoulder.

By that time everything came to a screaching halt. For the last 3 years I have been using and teaching the MM method with great results. I have been on both sides of the fence. 28 years ago, if I would have know then what I know now, I calculate I would have been able to consistently increase my then mid 90's fastball by 3 to 4 mph. I would have been able to explode breaking balls off my release. And I could have done it all with no arm stress.

Gentlemen, I have thrown thousands of baseballs after mastering both styles. I have done my own analysis. I tried to dispute MM's style for over a year as I was learning it. The more I did it, the more I mastered it, the better it got. I started out as an experiment to see if I could disprove it. I couldn't.

The hardest part was I had to swallow my own pride, and tell myself I had to forget everything I thought I knew about throwing a baseball, and relearn.

"Evangelical rant"? Call it what you will. You see, you young boys have not been around long enough to try everything yet. You have not had serious arm injuries yet, (hopefully).
On the other hand, I have seen it all...really all. The Dick Mills, Tom Houses, Strom, Wolforth, etc, etc. The list goes on and on. I've had every arm injury you can imagine.

I'm just trying to get you guys to think about the fact there is one perfect way for a human body to throw a baseball with 100% efficency and 100% effectiveness. You can do it now, or you can wait until serious injury puts and end to your dreams.

What's it gonna be? I just hope that some day you won't regret the fact that you should have listened to some old guy who couldn't spell "empirical" correctly.

[fastbal95]

Jake,

This thread is not about hitting, sliding, fielding ground balls, etc...

It is about pitching. I believe the title of the thread is Best Pitching Coach Ever?.

There does not need to be pitching arm injuries in baseball.

Will there be some injuries do to being hit with a ball or colliding with another player or sliding funny? Sure. Those are accidents. But we are talking about pitching. And the injuries that happen because of the "traditional" pitching motion are not accidents. And that you knowingly teach a motion that is known to cause injuries and has caused injuries for over 150 years in hipocrital.

[Jake Patterson]

I do not wish to start arguments. I simply do not want the same thing that happend to my arm happen to you young fellows. Unless you are at least 28 years old today, you were not born when I was gassing 96 mph heaters past soon to be MLB players, using the trad pitching method, while also unknowingly destroying my elbow and shoulder.
Region, most of us who participate in this discussion are coaches seeking answers not players seeking stardom. I started throwing in the 1960's.

[Baseball gLove]

Jake,

This thread is not about hitting, sliding, fielding ground balls, etc...

It is about pitching. I believe the title of the thread is Best Pitching Coach Ever?.

There does not need to be pitching arm injuries in baseball.

Will there be some injuries do to being hit with a ball or colliding with another player or sliding funny? Sure. Those are accidents. But we are talking about pitching. And the injuries that happen because of the "traditional" pitching motion are not accidents. And that you knowingly teach a motion that is known to cause injuries and has caused injuries for over 150 years in hipocrital.

The best pitching coach is the one that gets you into the MLB. Not the one that lets you hog all the pitching in a men's recreation league.

[fastbal95]

Baseball Love,

I thought you werent concerned with your son getting to the big leagues?

And what does hog all the pitching in a mens league supposed to mean?

Doc got Jeff Sparks to the majors so does that count then? Not to mention he got him there with already three calcium deposits in his elbow, which means he tore his UCL three different times before he met Doc. Sounds pretty good to me. Do you know any pitching coach out there that can get someone with one tear, let alone 3, into not only professional baseball but into the major leagues? Doubt it.

[regionman]

What are speaking of? How is you throwing in the 60's relevant? Don't you understand, I'm not tooting my own horn. I'm trying to stop young men from destroying theirs. How can you take what I'm saying so far out of context?

So far I see very few of my questions are answered directly. Many are taken out of context. Very little constructive exchange of ideas is happening here. Let me sum it up with just one question.

If you wish to have evidence of MM's program ability to produce high quality pitchers, why don't you do a controlled experiment? Take 10 trad pitchers of very similar abilities. Learn the MM program inside and out. Then teach 5 of the trad pitchers MM pitching for 6 months, and see what you get.

That way you'll have the evidence for yourself. It's that simple.

Waht do you day?

[Jake Patterson]

And that you knowingly teach a motion that is known to cause injuries and has caused injuries for over 150 years in hipocrital.
Joe I was teaching pitching before you were born I have NOT had any of my players hurt. None! Does this mean I think they way we pitch is good - NO! Again you are confusing the argument. Maybe I can frame it another way...

I agree what we do does not work.
I agree pro ball is full of traditionalist who resist change.
I agree that most sport medicine experts are about treatment and not preevntion.
I agree what Doc is trying to do is admirable.
I agree what we teach is injurious (I consider myself lucky not good on this score)
I agree much of what Doc teaches is better for the arm. I have said repeatidly that Coach 45 had me throwing pain-free for the first time in 30 years.
I agree, I agree, I agree

The problem is people, coaches, parents, players, whatever are willing to take the risk. How do you change their mind - evolution or revolution. Revolution won't happen. So that leaves us with one avenue of approach - change what we do over time with something that can be disseminated easily and something that works. The skeptics here are asking for performance proof (not injury proof althought there are questions here) and that question keeps getting clouded because there is NOBODY at the MLB that can push this discussion forward. It is what it is. What I am saying to you is go prove them wrong... Stop arguing and perform. When someone gets to the top then the young people in the game will pay attention.

[fastbal95]

Jake,

Just because someone gets to the MLB does or does not proof Doc's teachings right or wrong. Do you agree?

That people look to the MLB is extremely ignorant, my opinion.

In my posts to YOU, I was not talking about anyone else, only you. If you agree that what YOU are teaching is injurious, then why are you teaching it? You know of another way already.

Its hard to perform when the season has not started yet. Would you agree. Right now at this moment in time, all I have is to "argue" or as I would say debate this topic. Believe me, when it comes time for me to pitch, I will let my results speak for themselves.

[virg]

regionman
"I'm just trying to get you guys to think about the fact there is one perfect way for a human body to throw a baseball with 100% efficiency and 100% effectiveness. You can do it now, or you can wait until serious injury puts and end to your dreams."

I have always sat out these fastball lover's pow-wows, but now I ask the question I've been nursing all these years; the one about 100% and fastballs.
Just how many times in a row can a man gas it 100.000%?
What did the pro coaches have to say about it in your day?
Did anybody ever notice there are 5 to 7 easy outs in every lineup except for allstar teams?

[Jake Patterson]

If you agree that what YOU are teaching is injurious, then why are you teaching it? You know of another way already.What I know is using the techniques I use (which are different today than 20 years ago) I have NOT injured any of my players to include my two boys who are probably older than you. Does this mean I acknowledge this as the best way to teach pitching.. Again - No. You are using a circular arguement to get me to believe. I already believe. The problem is the general acceptance in mainstream baseball. Say what you will non-traditional methods have not penenetrated the traditionalists wall. the burden to penetrate that wall is not on me...

Its hard to perform when the season has not started yet. Would you agree. Right now at this moment in time, all I have is to "argue" or as I would say debate this topic. Believe me, when it comes time for me to pitch, I will let my results speak for themselves.I really hope you succeed.

[fastbal95]

Jake,

AGAIN, you constantly miss the point. I am talking to YOU right now, not the thousands of other coaches.

Here is what you said:

"Does this mean I acknowledge this as the best way to teach pitching.. Again - No.... I already believe. '

The problem is not with the general accpetance of mainstream baseball. If you are going to wait for that to teach the right way to throw, then it will never happen, or you will be too late.

AGAIN, why are you not teaching Doc's way to pitch if you KNOW that they way you are teaching pitching is not the best way? You DO NOT BELIEVE, if you are not teaching Doc's way of pitching.

The problem is YOU Jake. You want to wait for someone to "make it" to the ML's before you think this will catch on. Guess what, Im sure thousands of others think the same way. If you all think this way, then who is going to teach this stuff and get it out there? YOU need to start teaching Doc's stuff IF you truly BELIEVE.

Jake, be either hot or cold, NOT lukewarm. The lukewarm get spit out.

Thank you for the support about this summer.

[regionman]

regionman
"I'm just trying to get you guys to think about the fact there is one perfect way for a human body to throw a baseball with 100% efficiency and 100% effectiveness. You can do it now, or you can wait until serious injury puts and end to your dreams."

I have always sat out these fastball lover's pow-wows, but now I ask the question I've been nursing all these years; the one about 100% and fastballs.
Just how many times in a row can a man gas it 100.000%?
What did the pro coaches have to say about it in your day?
Did anybody ever notice there are 5 to 7 easy outs in every lineup except for allstar teams?

If a pitcher is trained properly he can exert 100% force on a baseball pitch 100 times in a row. He has to be conditioned to do so.

As for pro coaches, in a previous post I stated what pro coaches have said. Some say different things, but most don't realize that the human body can be trained to throw at maximum intensity every day at least 80 + pitches. That's about 6 innings of game intensity pitches per day.

Until 3 years ago I didn't believe it could be done, and it took me an entire year of learning until I saw results that gave evidence to the fact.

[regionman]

You see fellows...I was just like you guys. Heck even more so. I was convinced beyond a shadow of a doubt there was no way to improve the pitching motion. I was resolute to the fact that we would pitch until our performance levels went down, and finally would succumb to some arm injury.

Now I know better.

[fastbal95]

Virg,

Every single day, I do at 96 reps of my wrist weight exercises at 25 lbs right now. Soon I will be using 30 lbs. The motion I use is the exact motion I use when I throw a baseball. Then I throw a 12 lb ball 24 times at full intensity with the same motion I use to throw baseballs. Then I throw a football 24 times at full intensity with the same motion. Then I throw anywhere from 48-72 baseballs at full intensity everyday. That is anywhere from 192 reps to 216 reps all full intensity work.

In just under a month, I will be maintaining at 30 lb wrist weights and be doing 24 reps. I will be maintaining at a 12 lb lead ball and be doing 24 reps. I will still do 24 reps of the footballs. And I will throw at least 72 baseballs at full intensity. As I slowly ease in maintaining and not training, my intensity level will be able to be raised and I will begin to throw harder and harder.

Then when I get into the season and game situations, I will still do the ww reps at 24, ib reps at 24, footballs at 24, but I will throw 36 baseballs everyday. Of course if I pitch in a game, I might throw more or less. The days I do not pitch in games I will throw 36 pitches at full intensity everyday. Getting into game situations, my adreneline and intensity levels will increase again, and the new tissues that I have developed will begin to mature and then I will be throwing harder again.

[Jake Patterson]

AGAIN, why are you not teaching Doc's way to pitch if you KNOW that they way you are teaching pitching is not the best way? You DO NOT BELIEVE, if you are not teaching Doc's way of pitching. You don't know what I teach.

The problem is YOU Jake. You want to wait for someone to "make it" to the ML's before you think this will catch on. Boy Joe, I just don't know how many different ways I can say this. I am not saying this - the thousands of other coaches who teach pitching are. The experts at the WBC are saying this. The D1 CT college coach I sat with a few weeks back is saying this. I am changing the way I teach pitching. I have not injured any pitchers. You dont need me. This is probably my last season, you need to get everyone else.

Guess what, Im sure thousands of others think the same way. What they think and what they have very clearly told you is they do not believe it works! Until you can answer that question few will accept something they don't understand.
YOU need to start teaching Doc's stuff IF you truly BELIEVE. And maybe here is where we can better understand each other....

I don't need to do anything... I'm too old to take on another cause YOU need to be the one who sells it and I am trying to tell you where your views and approach fall short. If you choose not to listen then so be it.

[fastbal95]

Jake,

Do you teach Mike Marshall's mechanics and training programs?

[regionman]

OK we'll try this again...

I am not implying it is! What I said is evolution or revolution and a class action suit against LLI would be revolution. My comment has nothing to do with Doc. It has everything to do with change.

Ok What does this have to do with what people are asking for?

The hundreds of coaches I interact with on an annual basis, the professional pitching coaches I talk to at Spring training, the HS and College coaches I speak with at the WBC. If the consumer wanted this they would be lining up at the door. Please don;t confuse me with a naysayer I was pointing out the problem in selling the product. If you feel Doc is reaching all he should then so be it.

Again... OK don't disagree. Your arguing the wrong points.
Again, I don't see how this argument furthers the discussion. Take it upon yourself to go to Little League and see how far you get.

If Doc sees it this way so be it. At the end of the day thousands of coaches are using traditional methods.

No but I do have evidence those who have followed Doc have. I have always stated that I felt Doc was a gentleman. I have never stated he said this. I refer to his followers who have set the movement back years because of their inability to discuss in a manner that people will listen. This is not my issue.

That's fine- I have no problem with this point of view. If this is the case then you should find a format of like minds.

Preaching to the choir...

My experience is the opposite.

Again no argument.

Work ethic and techniques are two different topics that should not be confused. The same for performance and injury. while they remain linked each has a place in a reasonable discussion.


I don't know where to start here. I'll keep it short. Technique is mastered by "Work Ethic". Most people don't want to try Doc's methods because they have to work hard at it.

You said there are "several problems with Mike Marshalls' teaching". Then you went on and listed them. I simply explained that none of these things were his fault.

I understand you did not imply anything, you listed it in print.

As for the Little Leagues, that is where I am getting my most success. The little guys have not been brainwashed yet.

[virg]

Regionman, thanks for plain answers. One more now, if you will. How fast and how many, is perspective from one angle.

The other angle is control. At your highest level (AAA?) just what is considered good enough control? How would they cope with a bad-control day? What is taught, on control?

[fastbal95]

Virg,

Where ya from in Chicago?

[virg]

fb95 have been described in the Loop as 'a hayseed from Indiana' (just across the street in Hammond).

[fastbal95]

Virg,


I see. I grew up in Blue Island. My family now lives in Alsip. I went to Saint Xavier University in Mount Greenwood.

[regionman]

Regionman, thanks for plain answers. One more now, if you will. How fast and how many, is perspective from one angle.

The other angle is control. At your highest level (AAA?) just what is considered good enough control? How would they cope with a bad-control day? What is taught, on control?

As for control, there is certainly a difference between "throwing strikes" and working corners and working the zone up and down with movement.

A batter's sweet swing is to time the speed and location of the pitch so he can pivot perfectly on his spinal column axis and keeping his balance while swinging.

Through movement, location and change of speeds it is the pitcher's job to disrupt this perfect spinal column axial turn.

There are 4 basic directions a pitcher tries to get the batter to "lean" away from his perfect "center of balance" point. He tries to get the batter to lean left, right, forward toward the plate, or backwards away from the plate, or a combination of.

A variety of locations, movements, and speeds mixed in the proper fashion should accomplish that job most of the time.

When you speak of control, I am assuming you are speaking of the perceived lack of control in the MM method.

I can't speak for fastball95 or any of the other fellows who trained in Zepher Hills with Doc. All of my work has been done at home. I honestly can't say that I or my son have had any control problems. To the contrary, I now throw batting practice for several teams because I can throw harder, longer and with more control than the other Dads.

My son has found new control with MM. So, I'm sorry but I'm having problems understanding why some of the MMers are having control problems, since that has not been our experience.

I hope that helps.

[Baseball gLove]

Baseball Love,

I thought you werent concerned with your son getting to the big leagues?

And what does hog all the pitching in a mens league supposed to mean?

Doc got Jeff Sparks to the majors so does that count then? Not to mention he got him there with already three calcium deposits in his elbow, which means he tore his UCL three different times before he met Doc. Sounds pretty good to me. Do you know any pitching coach out there that can get someone with one tear, let alone 3, into not only professional baseball but into the major leagues? Doubt it.


My son wants to throw the way the best do it. You guys are not even on the list or anywhere near it. A D-1 school has expressed interest in him.

It means that your safe pitching is great for the rec leagues.

Joe, what was your velocity before you injured yourself and switched?

There are probably a lot of pitchers that have had injuries and are still throwing the same injurious way, BUT they are in the MLB. One is on the Angels right now.

[regionman]

virg,

I'm sorry but I don't have any pm messages.

[fastbal95]

Baseball Love,

As far as I know, I topped out at 91 mph when I was in college. I could have thrown harder, but Im not sure really. This is what I was told after a game in April. There were other games where I felt like I was throwing harder, but was not told how fast I was throwing. So 91 is the best I know of.

In pro ball I think I might have hit 90 once. I was mostly mid to upper 80's, like 85-88. It got worse and worse till the point where I was only throwing 80 mph. I knew something was definately wrong with my shoulder then. Turns out my labrum was torn. SLAP tear.

Last summer I went to a tryout before I joined the summer team I played for, shortly after returning from Florida. I had not yet thrown in competitive situations until that tryout and was told I was throwing 84. This stuff is completely anecdotal but I'll share anyway. No one got a hit off me in this tryout and I struck out 5 of the 9 batters I faced. After I was done throwing, the scout told me that my fastball didnt have much velocity, but it had great life. Im not really sure how this could be, but I thanked him for the chance to throw that day. He also told me I had the sickest curveball he had ever seen. I believe he also said something like, that curveball definately plays. After the tryout I was told by people I faced and others sitting in the stands that I was throwing much harder than what the scout said. One guy said 92-93 mph. All I know is what the scout told me and what these people told me. Also what I did on the mound. During the summer I had numerous people telling me I was throwing extremely hard. Was I? I dont know. I do know that I could throw everyday in games and that I pitched very well, even if it was a college summer league. That was only with 4 months of work with Doc and a very crude understanding of his motion and a baseline level of strength. My understanding and strength have greatly increased over the past off season and I am excited to see what I can do this summer in pro ball, wherever that is.

[regionman]

Baseball gLove,

I am very glad your son is being sought after by a D-1 school. Good for him!

If at the least, (even Mike himself on occassion has made this concession), please make sure he throws with as straight of a drive line as possible. Don't reverse rotate on his back swing behind his body. If he drives straight off his pitching leg and does his rotating over his glove leg he will find that he will not lose ANY velocity, and possibly pick up some. If he will pronate through the release of his pitches, (turning his thumb down with his palm facing away from his body instantly after release), he will apply more spin and livelyness to his pitches, as well as automatically flip his elbow joint to naturally decelerate his pitches.

If he does those things alone, it will help him to remain powerfull and healthy.

[TG Coach]

Joe ... You've done well for your age. But you're confusing building a foundation with accomplishment. Getting a degree is building a foundation.

I played D1 and was a late draft choice. So late I asked why there were that many rounds to the draft (response from insider my dad knew: the prospects need teammates). From seeing what older friends and teammates had experienced in the minors I wasn't that overwhelmd with the idea considering I was also offered a position in one of the best corporations in America at the time. It wasn't a difficult decision. They put me through an MBA program as part of the training. The corporate training I received and the career I built using that company's training as a foundation, along with the contacts I made help put me in a position today, that you would feel very fortunate if it were you. One of my friends hit .337 in short season. He broke his ankle the last week of the season. As soon as he was medically cleared he was cut. As a late pick he had already cost the team far more than they had invested. Had he been a million dollar first rounder they would have sent a limo for him for spring training.

You're right striking me out wouldn't shut me up because I've seen plenty of false sales and marketing pitches in my life to recognize them. I see Marshall as another until I see positive results on the field of competition. Theory is not results. Bullpen's are not results. Success on a D1 or pro mound would be results.

I don't know everything about pitching. Even if I don't believe the basic methodology hasn't changed, teaching methods do. But at twenty-three you believe you know everything about pitching because you've bought into Marshall. As you get older and mature you will think a little more and not buy into something so quickly. You may realize when you're older you might have been a bit gulliable about Marshall. But it's understandable considering you've had baseball taken from you and see Marshall as a possible salvation. But it's all part of the growing and maturing process.

Good luck with your baseball career. My apologies for the comment about your arm falling off. If it doesn't work out at least you were smart enough to place value on the education side of your college experience. Many athletes don't focus enough on the education and have nothing if they fail in their sport.

If you succeed we all know who you are. If you fail, please don't come back here telling us how Marshall has all the answers. All anyone ever asked for here is evidence. It's never been provided. No one here buys conspiracy as the answer.

So enough of the pissing matches and get on with your life whether it's baseball or Med School. I've said all I'm going say about Marshall until the next follower comes around next year and again vow not to get sucked into it. I'll give you credit though. Until you got impatient and irritable you were the first Marshall poster to post in a coherent manner.

[regionman]

Hello TG Coach,

If you have explained why Joe has "bought into" as you put it, Marshall's method, how do you explain someone like me, almost your same age, and experience in baseball, especially in the realm of pitching "buying in" so to speak?

My experience gives me claim to say with confidence and knowledge that MM is definitely a superior method on all counts.

If you read a previous post of mine, I tried to disprove Doc's program. The more I used it and mastered it, the better and better it got for me, and my sons. I am not "sold" because I'm some mind numbed zealous robot. That is an insult to peoples' intelligence to even infer that. I am sold because it truly works.

How about a challenge? This summer, why don't you hop on MM's website...learn everything you can about how he wants folks to throw, then in November, start your son on his program in earnest.

Work it hard for 4 months. Give it a chance. Come the first week in March, if you don't like it, then he can instantly revert back to the old ingrained standard motion.

Then, you can hop on this forum and bash away to your heart's content.

Sound fair enough? Do you have the guts?

[TG Coach]

Gutsy would not be the term I'd use for screwing up my son's opportunity to pitch high school baseball with an unproven after thirty years on the field of competition, scientific theory. No thanks. Have a nice day. See you next year for the next round.

[fastbal95]

TG,

First of all, Im 26, so Im old in baseball years, lol.

Secondly, I didnt just by into Marshall because I thought he could save my baseball career. Im not some gullible high school kid. I have a degree, Ive been to grad school. I am very bright and knowledgable. Med schools just dont accept anybody.

Here is what I did first. Being a science guy, I already knew stuff. I looked into Mills, and House extensively. I found that they know jack about pitching. I stumbled across Doc's site and asked him numerous questions. He had a logically and scientific answer for all of them. Thats more than I could say for House, Mills, the Mets Training Staff, the coaching staff, and especially the 7 or 8 MD's I saw with my injuries while playing.

I decided that if I was going to be the best possible pitcher that I could be, then it was up to me to find out what is right, for myself. None of these coaches could do it for me. I decided to get Doc's video to see what he was all about after reading his book and emailing him numerous times. I sent part of his video to a professor at the Unversity of Indiana to see what he thought. I spoke with Professors all across the country who did "studies" about pitching and injuries, etc... All in all I spoke to about 4 or 5 guys. I spoke with the heads at UIC ( University of Chicago) about their biomechanics programs and if they did any baseball related research. They did not. I didnt just take Doc's word for it. I researched his stuff. I saw what kind of degree's he had and that he also played 14 years in the big leagues, one a Cy Young award, and most impressively, pitched in 208.1 innings in 106 games as a closer. No one else has come near his numbers.

Having a science background, taking anatomy, physiology, physics, etc... helped me understand Doc's stuff better than just the average person, I think. It just made sense. Maybe thats why its so difficult for me to understand how most of you guys on here cannot just "get it", or understand it. You guys think that just because MLB doesnt have anyone who uses it, then it must not be any good. That is a very ignorant thing to think. There have been plenty of guys that Doc has trained that have gone on to play pro ball. Coaches see something different and immediately try to change them, and have told them that if they didnt change, they wouldnt pitch. Not a conspiracy, just the truth.

Now I was sceptical at first too. But I looked into it and knew his stuff to be true because of my schooling background. I have seen not only myself, but others here get a lot better at pitching. Throwing stuff that "traditional" pitchers cant.

If I am meant to play pro ball again, I will. And if I am meant to play in the bigs, then I will. If not, I wont. I will go do something else. Its out of my control. But what I am going to do is put myself in the best possible position to succeed in baseball if and when I do play again. Dr. Mike Marshall's stuff is it.

Just a side note, why would it have to be D1? I know plenty of D1 players who didnt get drafted and I know plenty of guys who didnt play D1 that have. Playing D1 isnt all its cracked up to be. Its not like football or basketball. You should know this.

So there is a big difference between what I did, and just "buying in" as you call it.

[Jake Patterson]

I don't know where to start here. I'll keep it short. Technique is mastered by "Work Ethic". Most people don't want to try Doc's methods because they have to work hard at it.

Agree.
You said there are "several problems with Mike Marshalls' teaching". Then you went on and listed them. I simply explained that none of these things were his fault. Agree

I understand you did not imply anything, you listed it in print. Show me where and I will apoligize.

As for the Little Leagues, that is where I am getting my most success. The little guys have not been brainwashed yet.Then share how you did this.

[Jake Patterson]

Having a science background, taking anatomy, physiology, physics, etc... helped me understand Doc's stuff better than just the average person, I think. It just made sense. Then how do you use your science to convince those who do not feel the performance question has been answered?

[Jake Patterson]

I cleaned it up again... Last time.
Jake

[virg]

Two weeks after Kerry Wood's 20-K game, he blew his arm. Two years later Prior, the guy with perfect mechanics blew His arm. Two years later the same pitching coach was still employed. Makes me wonder if the menu is any more than just "throw harder". Half or more of the Big Heaters who came along since the Forties; same fate. We do have a few of the luckier ones to remember, so we latch onto those names to 'forget'.

[fastbal95]

Jake,

I cannot make anyone understand stuff. They must learn it for themselves. I have tried to explain it as best I can, and a few on here have understood, many have not. Can you explain to me how some are able to understand while othes are not yet?

Just like a math teacher cannot force a student to understand that 2+2=4, I cannot make anyone understand physics and how Doc's motion uses Newton's Laws more efficiently.

When people are not yet ready to hear something, when they do here it, they wont understand it. Just like when some students hear y=mx+b, they go huh??? How can there be letters in math? Some people are not yet ready to understand Doc's motion and how it applys to phsyics and why it works better. So be it.

[fastbal95]

Virg,

Good post. Breaks my heart being a Cub fan. Those two guys could have been the most dominant 1-2 punch ever if they had just done a few things differently. Unfortunately, they have Rothschild for a pitching coach. He knows nothing. And I have a feeling that Big Z is headed for the same fate. I hope Im wrong.

[Jake Patterson]

Jake,

I cannot make anyone understand stuff. They must learn it for themselves. I have tried to explain it as best I can, and a few on here have understood, many have not. Can you explain to me how some are able to understand while othes are not yet?

Just like a math teacher cannot force a student to understand that 2+2=4, I cannot make anyone understand physics and how Doc's motion uses Newton's Laws more efficiently.

When people are not yet ready to hear something, when they do here it, they wont understand it. Just like when some students hear y=mx+b, they go huh??? How can there be letters in math? Some people are not yet ready to understand Doc's motion and how it applys to phsyics and why it works better. So be it.Most here do not need to have a deep understanding of the workings of the internal combustion engine to understand maximum speed. I know you see and understand this.

[regionman]

Agree.
Agree

Show me where and I will apoligize.

Then share how you did this.

You typed it in yourself. It's right there.

Little Leaguers? Please...it's easy. They are like sponges. They see things work for them, and they can't get enough.

There is no magic. Just do it. I don't understand all the problem here.

[Jake Patterson]

You typed it in yourself. It's right there.
Little Leaguers? Please...it's easy. They are like sponges. They see things work for them, and they can't get enough. There is no magic. Just do it. I don't understand all the problem here.
Not getting this...
Are you responding to what I supposedly said about Doc or are you responding to my comment about sharing your Little League experience?

I do not teach Little Leaguers. I teach coaches.