Be thankful you aren't Carl Pavano

[OleMissCub]

aside from being a multi-millionaire....

http://yankees.lhblogs.com/2008/02/16/the-only-pavano-post-of-the-spring-promise/

Carl Pavano is in camp. He has to be because he’s on the 40-man roster. The Yankees asked him to accept a payoff on the final year of his deal then take a minor-league contract and he refused.

Pavano had surgery last June and almost certainly won’t be ready to pitch until 2009. He’ll be somebody else’s problem then.

To say Pavano is a pariah is an understatement. He asked one of the clubhouse kids for a small box today to store some things he had in his locker. The kid went over to a garbage pail, fished out an orange Nike shoebox, dumped a half-eated sandwich out of it and handed it to Pavano.

None the wiser, the “American Idle” (as the Post calls him), put it in his locker.

When the clubbies hand you garbage, that’s a sign your team has had enough of you.

[Doctor X]

Wow.

That earns a "Wow!"

So if he will not be ready to pitch, just what does he do there?

--J.D.

[Mattingly]

The fact that Carl Pavano refused to accept a buyout and an MiLB deal shows that he's purely greedy. Me, I'd be practically embarassed to accept $10-11m/yr while not contributing a thing to the team. Nobody wears his t-shirt, his jersey must be out of circulation (or steeply discounted for whatever is left in stock).

His only way to save face is to become a philanthropist and give away some of that money. As a Yankee, he's done absolutely nothing.

[NickU]

To say Pavano is a pariah is an understatement. He asked one of the clubhouse kids for a small box today to store some things he had in his locker. The kid went over to a garbage pail, fished out an orange Nike shoebox, dumped a half-eated sandwich out of it and handed it to Pavano.

That's great!

[Mattingly]

That's great!
I personally think that between the half-eaten sandwich and a few stale jelly donuts, Carl Pavano should've questioned his own worthiness of those items.

[metfan13]

Not sure why he should take anything less than what he signed for. If he'd won a couple of Cy Young's would they have bumped him up to Santana money, just because that would be the right thing to do?

Contracts work both ways.

Also, has Mike Hampton refunded any of his salary to the Braves?

[NYMets523]

Me, I'd be practically embarassed to accept $10-11m/yr while not contributing a thing to the team.
I find that hard to believe.

[OleMissCub]

I find that hard to believe.

Why would that be hard to believe? I would hope that my personal integrity would extend to the professional baseball ranks.

[whoisonit]

Why would that be hard to believe? I would hope that my personal integrity would extend to the professional baseball ranks.

So, does that mean you wouldn't take steroids and you would speak up if you had knowledge of wrong doing of the sort on your own team ?

[OleMissCub]

So, does that mean you wouldn't take steroids and you would speak up if you had knowledge of wrong doing of the sort on your own team ?

I would hope that I wouldn't take steroids if I played in the Major Leagues. Being a lover of the GAME of baseball and its history, I'd think that I wouldn't. However, if I wasn't such a baseball history lover and was just some jock, then I don't know. I might.

As far as ratting on my teammates. No. I wouldn't do that. My integrity would take a hit because I value camaraderie so highly.

[NYMets523]

Why should you protect cheaters? If you love the game and your friends did it, you should be appalled by it and have no problems telling the truth.

[Imgran]

It's harder when you know the guy.

[OleMissCub]

Why should you protect cheaters? If you love the game and your friends did it, you should be appalled by it and have no problems telling the truth.

Have you played competitive sports with a group of guys for a decent period of time?

Camaraderie is a very difficult thing to betray.

[whoisonit]

Have you played competitive sports with a group of guys for a decent period of time?

Camaraderie is a very difficult thing to betray.

You've given honest answers to difficult questions. However, to go back to your original declaration "I would hope that my personal integrity would extend to the professional baseball ranks" ; in regard to your teamates, who ever said taking the road of personal integrity is easy ? Often in life, it is not the easy road, so how do you face this decision ?

[OleMissCub]

You've given honest answers to difficult questions. However, to go back to your original declaration "I would hope that my personal integrity would extend to the professional baseball ranks" ; in regard to your teamates, who ever said taking the road of personal integrity is easy ? Often in life, it is not the easy road, so how do you face this decision ?

It's hard to say. I suppose I'd sacrifice integrity for some things but not others. I would feel bad about taking 10 million dollars if I wasn't doing anything to contribute to my employer. On the other hand, like I said earlier, my integrity would probably take a back seat to my camaraderie with my teammates. In a way, I view loyalty, even loyalty to a fault, as a type of integrity in and of itself.

Like you said, very difficult questions. But I wouldn't rat on my teammates.

[Westlake]

Anyone else wondering who the heck this clubhouse kid thinks he is?

[Los Bravos]

Anyone else wondering who the heck this clubhouse kid thinks he is?My nominee for Man Of The Year, for one thing.

[whoisonit]

Anyone else wondering who the heck this clubhouse kid thinks he is?

NO !
.
.

[baseball junkie]

Cashman, Levine and the rest of the Yankee front office should be the the pariahs. Pavano had one decent season in a decade and the genius Yankees give him a four year $40 million contract.

Pavano.....
Wright......
Igawa.......
Brown.......
Karsay......

Will this team ever learn? NO!

[Old Sweater]

Why should you protect cheaters? If you love the game and your friends did it, you should be appalled by it and have no problems telling the truth.



Why would anyone support a admitted cheater who has confessed if cheating bothers them so much? I wouldn't watch the game if high moral standards effected me that way.

[Westlake]

Right. That Pavano guy totally deserved that. He's such a jerk -- for being very unlucky and getting hurt a lot. He should have done what NO OTHER ATHLETE IN THE WORLD would have done and given the money back to the Yankees.

Ya know, like everyone on this board would have given their employer money back if they got paid sick leave for a really long time.

Really -- what's the rational reason behind hating him? I can understand Yankee fans not liking him because he was supposed to help their team and he didn't (which was beyond his control too), but other than that...

[Old Sweater]

I wish for any player to come back from injury but what that kid did is funny.

[Imgran]

Sox fans (well most of them) learned a lesson with Matt Clement's situation about questioning a player's heart just because he doesn't come back in a hurry. Turns out Clement's shoulder was hamburger. Doctor said it looked like a mine went off in there. I'm not saying the Pavano situation is exactly similar but unless you've tried to come back from constant nagging injuries don't judge too harshly.

[Westlake]

I wish for any player to come back from injury but what that kid did is funny.

I mean, I thought it was funny too, but I just don't get all the hatred towards him. Clubhouse kid has some cojones.

[NickU]

Ya know, like everyone on this board would have given their employer money back if they got paid sick leave for a really long time.

Really -- what's the rational reason behind hating him? I can understand Yankee fans not liking him because he was supposed to help their team and he didn't (which was beyond his control too), but other than that...

Guy, I totally get the point you are making, and I agree. No one is going to be mad at the factory working that is collecting disability, or unemployment, or whatever else they have these days so that he can feed his kids and pay the mortgage. Things happen, but, I think the stakes change a little bit when someone is making $10 million a year to sit on his ass. It's like, alright, you got the first $10 million, now just agree to get dropped. There's people out there that will completely sacrifice every fiber in their morals, and integrity, to get 10% of that, now he's getting it over and over again. There's people out there that are standing in welfare lines for weeks on end to just get the obligatory three rejections while they are wrapping bed sheets around their babies ass because they can't afford pampers. There's people dying from AIDS, forced to shorten their already crippled life span, to sell these guys their HGH because the state won't approve their benefits because they are technically deemed able to work, yet no one will hire them. This is why people get so pissed off at baseball players. Now Pavano is the latest target, people aren't mad at him, but just mad in general at the whole system and the inadequacies in their own existances. He's just a tangible target that they can point their collective finger at and rally around for the time being

[Los Bravos]

I'm not mad at Pavano. I've just always thought he was a tool. Between that and seeing the Yankees overpay for him and suffer the consequences, his tribulations in NYC have provided me with some (admittedly cheap and low grade) entertainment. End of story.

I have never, and will never, write or voice one of those diatribes about how all pro athletes are overpaid and spoiled. In fact, I have spent years arguing the contrary opinion.

While it annoys me that he's eaten up a precious chunk of the Braves' payroll to similarly sit on the proverbial shelf, I bear no malice to Mike Hampton. But Pavano, like Kevin Brown, is a guy who has always struck me as someone I would like to see fail professionally. My taking satisfaction when they do is solely my personal opinion.

[Old Sweater]

While it annoys me that he's eaten up a precious chunk of the Braves' payroll to similarly sit on the proverbial shelf, I bear no malice to Mike Hampton.


I feel the same towards Hampton even though his 21 wins cost the Rockies 81mil after the 3 team trade. He just lost it as a pitcher while he was here.

[Mattingly]

So, does that mean you wouldn't take steroids and you would speak up if you had knowledge of wrong doing of the sort on your own team ?
What the heck does taking steroids have to do with taking a high salary but being extremely underperforming and, to some, undeserving of that money?

[Mattingly]

Right. That Pavano guy totally deserved that. He's such a jerk -- for being very unlucky and getting hurt a lot. He should have done what NO OTHER ATHLETE IN THE WORLD would have done and given the money back to the Yankees.

Ya know, like everyone on this board would have given their employer money back if they got paid sick leave for a really long time.

Really -- what's the rational reason behind hating him? I can understand Yankee fans not liking him because he was supposed to help their team and he didn't (which was beyond his control too), but other than that...
I'm curious, did you ever see any part of my post which said that Carl Pavano should give back his salary? Or did you read something saying that I'd be embarassed to take that salary?

Do you note a difference between the two?

[Westlake]

I'm curious, did you ever see any part of my post which said that Carl Pavano should give back his salary? Or did you read something saying that I'd be embarassed to take that salary?

Do you note a difference between the two?

My post wasn't directed at you whatsoever. Many, many people have said that he shouldn't accept the money and I find it funny. However, when you said this...

"The fact that Carl Pavano refused to accept a buyout and an MiLB deal shows that he's purely greedy. Me, I'd be practically embarassed to accept $10-11m/yr while not contributing a thing to the team."

Embarrassed makes sense, but who's to say Pavano isn't embarrassed?

Hey, maybe i'm wrong -- but my personal opinion is that not one person that has posted in this thread would turn down $10 million. If they disagree, fine, but until they sign with the Yankees and get hurt, we'll never know.

[Westlake]

While it annoys me that he's eaten up a precious chunk of the Braves' payroll to similarly sit on the proverbial shelf, I bear no malice to Mike Hampton. But Pavano, like Kevin Brown, is a guy who has always struck me as someone I would like to see fail professionally. My taking satisfaction when they do is solely my personal opinion.

Why though? Is he arrogant? Since he hasn't played much in the AL, I admittedly don't know much about him. You being a Braves fan probably got to see him plenty -- what made you dislike him?

[Los Bravos]

Why though? Is he arrogant? Since he hasn't played much in the AL, I admittedly don't know much about him. You being a Braves fan probably got to see him plenty -- what made you dislike him?Nothing obvious and overt, like Brett Myers pounding on his wife, but it's just an accumulation of things.

If you read a lot about the teams and see quotes from, and about, players, you start to draw conclusions about them and their personalities. Over time, it's become clear to me that Pavano is a truly stupid man (the box incident above and the classic anecdote from Ken Macha about how he got bent out of shape in Triple A for being taken out of a rehab start after 90 pitches, because he was on a pitch count.) He's pretty universally thought to have little or no heart, even by indulgent teammates like Posada.

I don't normally make reference to them, but here is a nice piece (http://www.nypost.com/seven/03122007/sports/yankees/the_pride_and_the_pressure_yankees_michael_morriss ey.htm?page=0) in The New York Post about his standing among his teammates. This is a lot deeper than just resentment over his contract.I feel the same towards Hampton even though his 21 wins cost the Rockies 81mil after the 3 team trade. He just lost it as a pitcher while he was here.I always admired the Astros as a team when he was there. Their players played hard and did things the right way. I was happy to pick him up, especially for the worthless blowhard Tim Spooneybarger. I'm just sorry it hasn't panned out for him.

[digglahhh]

Westlake is the voice of reason here.

1. I doubt a single one of you would give the money back, not to mention you'd be advised not to by your own union representatives as well as every individual whose counsel you pay for.

2. I'm sure you very honorable individuals head to HR after each pay period and refund them the money for the work hours you spent on BBF - cause you guys got integrity like that!

3. A professional athlete who has stumbled on a run of bad luck should not be the subject of some cruel prank by some hot shot (probably self-entitled, silver spoon-fed) punk who has never accomplished dirt in his life.

4. I don't know what this has to do with steroids at all. Somebody makes reference to integrity, and apparently that's an invitation for a non-sequitir, apples to oranges analogy about steroids... Just because the issue is omnipresent right now, that doesn't mean it is relevant to any and all discussions. How about this, if we really had integrity, we'd debate the topic at hand.

The clubbie should be fired at the very least. Pavano shouldn't be embarassed - the organization should be embarrassed for hiring this bum. And you guys should be embarrassed for glorifying his behavior.

(Steps down from soapbox)

[Brian McKenna]

Not sure why he should take anything less than what he signed for.

Absolutely correct - this is just a byproduct of the Yankees' way of doing business. Spend, spend, spend. It's really hard to shed a tear here when the club outspends a division rival 8, 9 times over.

[Brian McKenna]

While managing a restaurant, I was once called to a table by a nice couple who had asked a new busboy to wrap some leftover food. The kids got a bag, went to the table and dumped their plates right into the bag - this wasn't fried food mind you.

The kid simply didn't know any better or thought nothing of it.

Not to mention - little boxes aren't just sitting around waiting for people to find some need for them. People hunt around looking for one when they need it. Sometimes this hunt leds to an already used or discarded box that we procure for another use.

It's more like the guy found a box and the article's author attached a great deal of "meaning" to its acquistion.

Anyone here ever judge the motives of the author first over the subject? This is much more telling. Blind acceptance of the printed word often denotes little insight.

[Mattingly]

My post wasn't directed at you whatsoever. Many, many people have said that he shouldn't accept the money and I find it funny. However, when you said this...

"The fact that Carl Pavano refused to accept a buyout and an MiLB deal shows that he's purely greedy. Me, I'd be practically embarassed to accept $10-11m/yr while not contributing a thing to the team."

Embarrassed makes sense, but who's to say Pavano isn't embarrassed?

Hey, maybe i'm wrong -- but my personal opinion is that not one person that has posted in this thread would turn down $10 million. If they disagree, fine, but until they sign with the Yankees and get hurt, we'll never know.
I think it's just the way that people feel about athletes who are raking in major buck$ but unable to do anything about it. To some, it also sounds like greed. I'm unsure if other players have done similar, but there was some time before Albert Belle officially retired from the Orioles (circa 2003, I think) that he was making around $10m, which was like $17m now, based on market value.

Anyway, Belle not only got his salary, he reportedly got on the team's case for not including the "lunch money". Players supposedly are given a certain amount to eat, and I guess that the team shortchanged him. Yes, he's due this, and he's entitled, but even if deserving, I think it's one of those things that I think of as wondering why the players complain about so much.

Perhaps if it hadn't been recited a few times, I may have thought differently, but to me, lunch money isn't something worth making a fuss about.

Whether Pavano (whose face, I don't think I even recognize right now) :D is embarassed, so be it. I don't even like being dead weight on my pool team (billiards), and that's an amateur team. For that salary, I would've seen every single doctor that I could in order to make sure that I could be productive every single year. I couldn't care if it's "only" 10 starts, I'd make sure that my name didn't seem more like a waste of time & roster space.

I wouldn't necessarily turn it down. I would at least give some of it away to charity, since just accepting that kind of money for sitting on the bench seems cheesy to me, but I've never been in that kind of situation before.

[whoisonit]

While managing a restaurant, I was once called to a table by a nice couple who had asked a new busboy to wrap some leftover food. The kids got a bag, went to the table and dumped their plates right into the bag - this wasn't fried food mind you.

The kid simply didn't know any better or thought nothing of it.

Not to mention - little boxes aren't just sitting around waiting for people to find some need for them. People hunt around looking for one when they need it. Sometimes this hunt leds to an already used or discarded box that we procure for another use.

It's more like the guy found a box and the article's author attached a great deal of "meaning" to its acquistion.

Anyone here ever judge the motives of the author first over the subject? This is much more telling. Blind acceptance of the printed word often denotes little insight.

Great story about the busboy.

I tend to think you're correct in your offering of the boy's action. Refreshing that you didn't automaticly spew forth an unwarented character assasination against the poor kid, who we know nothing about. Such venom generaly displays more about the spewer and his hangups and insecurities than it does his indended target.

I wonder what type of problems the clubhouse kid has encountered since this story ran.

[Urbanshocker13]

With Pavano it's just been one thing after another, Fine he got hurt but he had lied about injuries and a car crash. Now he is taking up a rosteer spot on the team, I am just so sick of him! I can't wait until 09" when him and a bunch of other dead waight come off the payroll, and Yanks can finally free themselves of the george reinstated time, cut some payroll and get back to what won the Yankees championships in the first place Home Grown Talent and good roll players.

As far interigity posters here would show if they where ballplayers, I can't question that since I don't know any of you personally. So I don't know how any of you would act in a situation. But Just think of the pressure, and temptation players go through. You are not sure what you would do if those situation happened to you especially with all that money involed. I am not condoneing what they did (and do) or say I think I would do it but you have to understand their point of view.

[Westlake]

Great story about the busboy.

I tend to think you're correct in your offering of the boy's action. Refreshing that you didn't automaticly spew forth an unwarented character assasination against the poor kid, who we know nothing about. Such venom generaly displays more about the spewer and his hangups and insecurities than it does his indended target.

I wonder what type of problems the clubhouse kid has encountered since this story ran.

Yet at the same time you basically accepted what the author put forward as well. Nice of you to try and bash people after the fact (well, not even fact, just bkmckenna's opinion). The holier than thou train already left the station.

I also disagree with bkmckenna. I'm pretty sure the kid could have found a box for Pavano somewhere other than the trash can. You really think he would have given Jeter a box straight out of the trash?

Also, 'venom' and 'insecurity'? Someone is taking things a little too far.

[whoisonit]

Yet at the same time you basically accepted what the author put forward as well.

Really ? Maybe you could point out where I did that.

Nice of you to try and bash people after the fact (well, not even fact, just bkmcenna's opinion).


Easy there cowboy, you weren't bashed after the fact, or before it. All in all, you've made a curiously outspoken post riddled with falsehoods.

[bigtime39]

Ah, the schadenfreude of watching two classy employees of a classy (ask them, they'll be glad to tell you how classy they are...hell, you might not even need to ask) organization interact. :rofl:
I can't believe anybody is concerned about the Yankee$ flushing away $10MM on any player...especially one who is more than likely getting paid by the insurance company rather than the team. (Which is why the Albert Belle situation dragged out as long as it did in Baltimore.)
Pavano will be off the 40-man, and on the 60-day DL, soon enough. Deal with it.

[whoisonit]

The holier than thou train already left the station.


I see you jumped back in to edit your post while I was responding, so you could add this spendid little nugget.
You should save this for your friends who disparage the personal integrity of other posters.

[Westlake]

Really ? Maybe you could point out where I did that.



Easy there cowboy, you weren't bashed after the fact, or before it. All in all, you've made a curiously outspoken post riddled with falsehoods.

Do I really have to? You posted in the thread, yet you didn't go off on your little tangent until someone else brought it up.

This whole thing about it being taken out of context doesn't make any sense anyway. Poor clubhouse kid. If he took a box out of a trashcan (with trash in it, no less) than I don't see how that can be construed as anything other than what it was.. Disrespect. I'm so sure that that was the only box in the whole clubhouse that could have been used. The limited resources of the New York Yankees has now been shown to the public. Yawn.

You should save this for your friends who disparage the personal integrity of other posters.

Like those who disparage the personal integrity of baseball players they have never and will never meet?


Anyway, this subject has grown tiresome. I was just wondering if any of the people that hate him for taking money while he is hurt would actually not take the 10 mil. No one really answered, except for Mattingly who gave a pretty honest one. Good luck to Carl on getting healthy -- I feel bad for the guy, unless he would rather sit on his bum.

[spark240]

He should have done what NO OTHER ATHLETE IN THE WORLD would have done and given the money back to the Yankees.

Ya know, like everyone on this board would have given their employer money back if they got paid sick leave for a really long time.

Bob Feller didn't give money "back," exactly, but after the 1949 season in which he went only 15-14 (his K rate had dropped), he suggested that his 1950 salary be cut from $65,000 to $45,000. And so it was.

He went on to win 74 more games for the Indians in '50-'55, for a salary in today's money (by CPI method) of about $377,000.

[Knick9]

Carl Pavano has to be one of the most uninspiring and unmotivated players of all time in any sport. Seriously.

[dl4060]

The fact that Carl Pavano refused to accept a buyout and an MiLB deal shows that he's purely greedy. Me, I'd be practically embarassed to accept $10-11m/yr while not contributing a thing to the team. Nobody wears his t-shirt, his jersey must be out of circulation (or steeply discounted for whatever is left in stock).

His only way to save face is to become a philanthropist and give away some of that money. As a Yankee, he's done absolutely nothing.

Why is he being greedy? He earned that contract with his abilities. The Yankees would not pay Pavano any more if he were to have posted Pedro 99' numbers. Contracts contain risks on both sides. The market value for Pavano's 2004 season was pretty clearly above what he was paid, and by quite a bit. Should Florida go back and pay him more based on his performance that year? Players who sign multi-year contracts do so to hedge their bets financially. It guarantees them a return on the market value of their skills regardless of what fate throws their way. By the same token, they risk being paid less than market value for their skills if they improve. Such is the risk of multi-year contracts.

I have no more sympathy for the Yankees in the Pavano situation than I did for Gary Sheffield when he started whining while playing for the Dodgers. Sheff thought he was being underpaid at 10 mil or whatever he was getting. He's right, he was getting paid at below the market value for his skills. However, had he signed one year contracts, this would not have happened. He wanted some stability, and went with a multi-year deal. In doing so, he took the risk that the salary structure would change and he would be underpaid. Teams often get very good deals on players who are not yet FA eligible. I don't see them going back retroactively and awarding players money based on performance.

[placount]

i love how every baseball fever discussion slips in to steroids

[SamtheBravesFan]

i love how every baseball fever discussion slips in to steroids

Sign of the times, my friend. Sign of the times. :cap:

[Go Cardinals]

Cashman, Levine and the rest of the Yankee front office should be the the pariahs. Pavano had one decent season in a decade and the genius Yankees give him a four year $40 million contract.

Pavano.....
Wright......
Igawa.......
Brown.......
Karsay......

Will this team ever learn? NO!

Couldn't agree more

[Jose Reyes]

in defense of the clubbie who gave pavano the shoebox from the garbage, where the heck was he supposed to find a box? i'm not really familiar with major league clubhouses, but do they keep a random supply of small boxes for players just in case they might need them? if you were the kid and one of the players asked you to get them a box, where would you go look for one?

[Los Bravos]

You really think he would have given Jeter a box straight out of the trash? No, but that's kind of the whole point.

[Westlake]

No, but that's kind of the whole point.

My point as well. People are now trying to say that the clubhouse kid was misrepresented by the writer and he meant nothing against Pavano.

[Mattingly]

Why is he being greedy? He earned that contract with his abilities. The Yankees would not pay Pavano any more if he were to have posted Pedro 99' numbers. Contracts contain risks on both sides. The market value for Pavano's 2004 season was pretty clearly above what he was paid, and by quite a bit. Should Florida go back and pay him more based on his performance that year? Players who sign multi-year contracts do so to hedge their bets financially. It guarantees them a return on the market value of their skills regardless of what fate throws their way. By the same token, they risk being paid less than market value for their skills if they improve. Such is the risk of multi-year contracts.

I have no more sympathy for the Yankees in the Pavano situation than I did for Gary Sheffield when he started whining while playing for the Dodgers. Sheff thought he was being underpaid at 10 mil or whatever he was getting. He's right, he was getting paid at below the market value for his skills. However, had he signed one year contracts, this would not have happened. He wanted some stability, and went with a multi-year deal. In doing so, he took the risk that the salary structure would change and he would be underpaid. Teams often get very good deals on players who are not yet FA eligible. I don't see them going back retroactively and awarding players money based on performance.
I just find it incomprehensible that a person who is not seriously injured, who has at least earned a 4-year deal, cannot manage to make a few starts every season. It's like every single time, he has a paper cut, he's hurt himself throwing, his finger has bent the wrong way. Every single minor harm has come his way, like he's some injury magnet who could be struck by lightning on a sunny & cloudless day.

Yes, on paper--literally--he's certainly eligible for whatever he's making. However, in Pavano's case, he has shown me very little incentive to perform his duties.

If I'm a company's CEO and I hire you as my Treasurer, CFO or whatever, I expect you to make an effort to come in, be on time, perform your work duties. I don't expect any "Whoops, I got a paper cut" routine, or "My pencil sharpener doesn't work, I can't work" thing. Every single excuse was made by Pavano, so to me, he just didn't want to work.

Moose, Jeter and others openly questioned whether or not he wanted to work. To me, if you sign a contract, you work unless you are so physically disabled that you are unable to. With Pavano, I think that he was just bluffing.

My left hand practically went dead on my over the weekend. I literally couldn't lift an empty porcelain saucer without feeling the weight. *LITERALLY*! It sagged back, I felt it. I rested it, had my right had do twice as much work, I made sure that my left hand became the "lazy hand" so as not to put any pressure on it. I kept flexing my fingers to make sure there was no structural damage. I even typed text messages on my cell phone entirely with my right hand.

The fact of the matter is, I did something about it. I'm unfamiliar with Pavano's medical results, but I just don't feel he's done enough to insure that he should be able to pitch. The Yanks, while overpaying, I believe (nothing new for the team), did at least have a reasonable expectation that he would perform his duties or attempt to do just this. When he shows up to sit on the bench, then I believe he has no intention to fulfill his contractual expectations: to play the game fairly. That's why I feel he should be embarassed to be making such a large sum of money he'd signed for ($40-44m/4 yrs).

[Mattingly]

My point as well. People are now trying to say that the clubhouse kid was misrepresented by the writer and he meant nothing against Pavano.
Maybe the clubhouse kid didn't recognize Pavano and merely gave him the "rookie treatment". :rofl: :dance

OK, bad joke, but I had to let it out! :D ;) :p

Carl Pavano has to be one of the most uninspiring and unmotivated players of all time in any sport. Seriously.
However, at least in MLB, we actually *EXPECT* our guys to do something other than riding the pine and eating jelly donuts all day. Would you believe there's actually an athlete (once said to be "the next Larry Bird") who's lazier than Carl Pavano? Read on:

(Semi)retirement pays
Van Horn latest to cash in on NBA's trade provisions (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/writers/marty_burns/02/19/van.horn/)
For most of us, Monday was Presidents Day. For Keith Van Horn, it was dead presidents day.

The 6-foot-10 forward, who hasn't played since the 2006 playoffs with the Mavericks, accepted an offer of $4.3 million just to be a pawn in the big Jason Kidd trade. All the 32-year-old Van Horn has to do in return is pull up those knee socks again and sit on the bench for a month with the Nets.

"It's like hitting the lottery," one longtime agent said.

"Only in America," echoed another agent.

Actually, only in the NBA.

While it might seem bizarre that a player would get paid anything -- let alone $4 million -- to just show up, it's really not that unusual in David Stern's league.

Just 2½ weeks ago, the Lakers signed Aaron McKie to a $750,000 deal and put him into the Pau Gasol trade even though McKie had not played all season and was actually working for the Sixers as a volunteer assistant coach. They did so because they needed McKie's contract to match up salaries so the trade with the Grizzlies would be legal under league rules.

McKie agreed to join the Grizzlies and has reported to the team, though he has not appeared in a game.

If anything like this ever happened in baseball, we'd not even be talking about steroids anymore! Well, almost! :D

[digglahhh]

While managing a restaurant...


Good post.

In light of this, I would like to point out something about my post. I do not truly know the intention of the employee. My comments were a reaction to the sentiments expressed by those acting under the assumption that it was a prank.

The employee has an obligation to treat Carl Pavano the same way he/she would treat Derek Jeter. If the incident was mistake of naivete, the same naive mistake that person would have made had that employee been given the same request by Jeter, then it is no harm no foul. There's no way to really know though.

However, most people were assuming the incident was a dig and Pavano, and the were finding it humorous, and more disturbing claiming that Pavano was deserving of such disrespect. That's not cool.

I should not have claimed that the employee should be fired without noting the caveat, "assuming this was not an innocent mistake."

[Mattingly]

Good post.

In light of this, I would like to point out something about my post. I do not truly know the intention of the employee. My comments were a reaction to the sentiments expressed by those acting under the assumption that it was a prank.

The employee has an obligation to treat Carl Pavano the same way he/she would treat Derek Jeter. If the incident was mistake of naivete, the same naive mistake that person would have made had that employee been given the same request by Jeter, then it is no harm no foul. There's no way to really know though.

However, most people were assuming the incident was a dig and Pavano, and the were finding it humorous, and more disturbing claiming that Pavano was deserving of such disrespect. That's not cool.

I should not have claimed that the employee should be fired without noting the caveat, "assuming this was not an innocent mistake."
I don't know if I'd agree with this. I would think that if someone is a restaurant manager, he/she would train their employees to handle the "doggie bag" thing about leftover food being taken home. If the employee weren't trained, I'd likely do it myself or ask a regular employee to do this.

I still say that Pavano is expected to show up to camp in good shape and work at what he does, throwing between starts. It's like he makes no effort at doing this.

[dl4060]

I

If I'm a company's CEO and I hire you as my Treasurer, CFO or whatever, I expect you to make an effort to come in, be on time, perform your work duties. I don't expect any "Whoops, I got a paper cut" routine, or "My pencil sharpener doesn't work, I can't work" thing. Every single excuse was made by Pavano, so to me, he just didn't want to work.

Moose, Jeter and others openly questioned whether or not he wanted to work. To me, if you sign a contract, you work unless you are so physically disabled that you are unable to. With Pavano, I think that he was just bluffing.


.

That's fair. I agree with everything you are saying here. I am not sure about the extent of his injuries. I do know that the poster above who mentioned the Clement situation was right on. Clement got plenty of grief from Red Sox fans, and it turned out he was seriously injured after all. I am not certain why Pavano is not expected to pitch until 09'. I am willing to give him the benefit of the doubt because I prejudged Clement.

If Pavano is bluffing, that is pretty despicable. If he would behave in such a way, I would not expect him to have the kind of personal pride where he would be ashamed of taking a large salary for doing nothing. I do not consider Yankee fans or the NY press to be experts on Carl Pavano's health. I have seen the NY media do many deplorable character assassinations which were not warranted. I will give him the benefit of the doubt until I hear medical evidence to the contrary.


Edit: Pavano had Tommy John surgery. How is he supposed to contribute to the team this year? His conduct in the past may not have been particularly endearing, but I do not see why he should be expected to somehow recover at an abnormal rate.

[digglahhh]

I don't know if I'd agree with this. I would think that if someone is a restaurant manager, he/she would train their employees to handle the "doggie bag" thing about leftover food being taken home. If the employee weren't trained, I'd likely do it myself or ask a regular employee to do this.

I still say that Pavano is expected to show up to camp in good shape and work at what he does, throwing between starts. It's like he makes no effort at doing this.

By extension, you are implying that bkmckenna was either incompetent, or at least lacking, as a manager or was being dishonest in his telling of the anecdote.

If the manager doesn't train the employee, then that is the manager's fault - and therefore not grounds to fire the employee. If the employee fails at his duties because he wasn't trained properly, the burden then falls on those who were responsible for training the employee. If the employee was expected to be trained upon hire, then the lion's share of the culpability rests on those who made the personnel decisions.

Regardless, there is no reason why a manager of a restaurant should have to perform busing duties - what's the point of hiring a staff. I guess sometimes things get overrun and it's all hands on deck, but I'm speaking in generalities here.

I assume in the story, bkmckenna was as surprised as anybody to find the busboy didn't know the procedure. If that's his fault, bkmckenna seems like a very honorable person, and I'm sure he would admit that.

If he just made up the story, then who knows. I doubt that highly though!

Regarding Pavano, you seem to be adamant about his less than admirable work ethic. Are we really close enough to make that kind of determination? What makes you think that Pavano was putting the thermometer up to the lamp? Finally, do you presume the fact that Yankee fans find it funny when clubhouse attendants throw garbage at the man is something one would find particularly motivating?

The verdict has long been in on Pavano, I'd assume that the sentiments the fans have for him are reciprocated.

[Silver Blaze]

At the root of this debate is the absurdity of guaranteed contracts, which I am all in favor of abolishing. Current performance should set current compensation. To reward future performance for up to five or seven (or ten) years on the basis of past performance is the height of giddy insanity.

As for the clubhouse kid - we have many serious topics on our minds nowadays, in baseball and outside of it, so I can't believe the time and depth spent here discussing the complexities of the "disrespect" of his digging through the garbage to hand a box to a major league pitcher. Personally, I think it's hilarious, but who cares? Let it go.

[digglahhh]

So, you'd like to work in a place where you had no job security and people laughed as interns pelted you with trash?


Before, anybody jumps, I know they didn't "pelt him with trash." I'm invoking hyperbole to make a rhetorical point.

[Los Bravos]

Current performance should set current compensation. To reward future performance for up to five or seven (or ten) years on the basis of past performance is the height of giddy insanity. You're leaving out the fact that players are, to a certain degree, also being compensated for past performance. Performance which often comes at a real bargain rate, at least until the player is arbitration eligible.

[digglahhh]

You're leaving out the fact that players are, to a certain degree, also being compensated for past performance. Performance which often comes at a real bargain rate, at least until the player is arbitration eligible.

Great point - explain to me again why you have to be Braves fan, Los Bravos...

Not to go on a tangent here, but I assume that anybody who espouses the view that Silver Blaze does supported Terrell Owens when he wanted to opt out of his Philly deal in order to rework the contract for a raise.

[Los Bravos]

Great point - explain to me again why you have to be Braves fan, Los Bravos...Because I got TBS in 1979 and I've paid my dues :gt

A prime example of what we're talking about came down today. Ryan Howard got an uptick from $900,000 to $10,000,000. I'm not sure what he made in '06, but I'm guessing that it was less than 900 grand. The Phillies owe that man considerable back pay for his last two seasons.

[Monarch]

Sox fans (well most of them) learned a lesson with Matt Clement's situation about questioning a player's heart just because he doesn't come back in a hurry. Turns out Clement's shoulder was hamburger. Doctor said it looked like a mine went off in there. I'm not saying the Pavano situation is exactly similar but unless you've tried to come back from constant nagging injuries don't judge too harshly.


And Clement is still not ready to pitch! Cardinal Nation is nearing the frustration that Red Sox Nation experienced. I know he has a serious and legit injury, but don't tell us you are ready to go and show up at Spring Training not ready. We know where Mulder and Carp are in their rehab, but Clement promised he was ready for Spring Training. Surprise!

[digglahhh]

Because I got TBS in 1979 and I've paid my dues :gt

Me too, but I took a trip to the clinic and worked it all out. Wild times, man.

Seiously, I was born in '80, so congrats. I'm a big Knicks fan, I believe the Claudel Washington contract is the archetype of our current organizational model...

A prime example of what we're talking about came down today. Ryan Howard got an uptick from $900,000 to $10,000,000. I'm not sure what he made in '06, but I'm guessing that it was less than 900 grand. The Phillies owe that man considerable back pay for his last two seasons.

Absolutely. Young players produce a lot of surplus value, but really their teams are getting in on consignment if they intend on keeping those players. In terms of production as it relates to the market, players will be underpaid when young and overpaid when old.

[Silver Blaze]

You're leaving out the fact that players are, to a certain degree, also being compensated for past performance. Performance which often comes at a real bargain rate, at least until the player is arbitration eligible.

That's true, but it's still a messy system. A great player does well in his first three years, gets paid relative peanuts, and then has a career ending injury or dies. He should have gotten his full reward for what he did when he did it.

[Silver Blaze]

So, you'd like to work in a place where you had no job security and people laughed as interns pelted you with trash?


Before, anybody jumps, I know they didn't "pelt him with trash." I'm invoking hyperbole to make a rhetorical point.

There's job security and then there's being paid millions of dollars regardless of performance, or even ability to perform. That is insane.

As for the box incident, I am saying it's getting blown up possibly way out of proportion. No-one here was there and knew what the "kid" intended. How old is this "kid" anyway? Maybe he looked around, saw the box, and figured that suited Pavano's need.

Once again, we are beating this thing to death, and it's just ridiculous in the greater scheme of things.

[digglahhh]

Once again, we are beating this thing to death, and it's just ridiculous in the greater scheme of things.

I thought that was the overarching purpose of this site... :rofl: :hide:

[Mattingly]

By extension, you are implying that bkmckenna was either incompetent, or at least lacking, as a manager or was being dishonest in his telling of the anecdote.

If the manager doesn't train the employee, then that is the manager's fault - and therefore not grounds to fire the employee. If the employee fails at his duties because he wasn't trained properly, the burden then falls on those who were responsible for training the employee. If the employee was expected to be trained upon hire, then the lion's share of the culpability rests on those who made the personnel decisions.
I wouldn't call one of the forumers here dishonest in any way. Nor incompetent. I was just offering my advice, in that if you have one of your customers, that the manager should at least know that the employee is skilled in what they're asked to do.

If you have a bartender who doesn't know how to make a certain type of drink, if there isn't anyone else available and the manager knows how to make it, then if I were the manager, I'd make that customer that drink, see if they enjoyed it.

I'd agree that if the employee had great expectations placed upon him/her, then he/she should be properly trained to meet those expectations.
Regardless, there is no reason why a manager of a restaurant should have to perform busing duties - what's the point of hiring a staff. I guess sometimes things get overrun and it's all hands on deck, but I'm speaking in generalities here.
I'll agree with this, even if contrary to my earlier point. I wasn't thinking about other more experienced busboys being available, so my oversight.
I assume in the story, bkmckenna was as surprised as anybody to find the busboy didn't know the procedure. If that's his fault, bkmckenna seems like a very honorable person, and I'm sure he would admit that.
I'm quite sure that bk would admit this also, as he/she seems very honorable here, as I'm sure he/she would be in his/her professional duties.
If he just made up the story, then who knows. I doubt that highly though!
Sometimes people use things "as examples". If I said that I was the CEO (which I'm not), hired you as my CFO, then that was one example I'd used here, but I'm not a corporate CEO. Just for argument's sake is all. :)
Regarding Pavano, you seem to be adamant about his less than admirable work ethic. Are we really close enough to make that kind of determination? What makes you think that Pavano was putting the thermometer up to the lamp? Finally, do you presume the fact that Yankee fans find it funny when clubhouse attendants throw garbage at the man is something one would find particularly motivating?
I wouldn't say that I'm "adamant" at his lack of work ethic. I just think that he's a bit lazy. Perhaps Torre never held his feet to the fire and clearly insisted that he bust his buns out there. Torre & Mel Stottlemyre (former pitch coach and ex-Yankee pitcher) were very strong when David Wells was here and he'd slacked off in his performance, allowing a few "lazy starts".

I just think that Carl Pavano hasn't made a full and concentrated effort to be in the finest shape possible. To me, if you're making $1m a year, which in the corporate world, seems like a lot to me, you should be well-prepared for what you do. If you are a doctor, you come prepared to perform those exams. If you are a surgeon, you are fully prepared to do the surgery and are fully aware of your patient's condition. If you are a teacher, you have studied your notes and can answer questions. If you are a pilot, you know your route and can guide that plan from airport to 40,000 feet above to another smooth landing.

To me, when you make $10m/yr, that's insane money, and if you don't come fully prepared to do the job, then I believe that's beyond unacceptable to me. The only excuse acceptable would be someone like Albert Belle's, whereby he was physically unable to play due to severe injury.
The verdict has long been in on Pavano, I'd assume that the sentiments the fans have for him are reciprocated.
I'm not sure which verdict you're referring to. So that we're both on the same page here, would you please care to state what you think that the verdict is from most fans? Be they fans in general, here on BBF, or Yankees fans, please state your thoughts.

[Mattingly]

That's fair. I agree with everything you are saying here. I am not sure about the extent of his injuries. I do know that the poster above who mentioned the Clement situation was right on. Clement got plenty of grief from Red Sox fans, and it turned out he was seriously injured after all. I am not certain why Pavano is not expected to pitch until 09'. I am willing to give him the benefit of the doubt because I prejudged Clement.

If Pavano is bluffing, that is pretty despicable. If he would behave in such a way, I would not expect him to have the kind of personal pride where he would be ashamed of taking a large salary for doing nothing. I do not consider Yankee fans or the NY press to be experts on Carl Pavano's health. I have seen the NY media do many deplorable character assassinations which were not warranted. I will give him the benefit of the doubt until I hear medical evidence to the contrary.

Edit: Pavano had Tommy John surgery. How is he supposed to contribute to the team this year? His conduct in the past may not have been particularly endearing, but I do not see why he should be expected to somehow recover at an abnormal rate.
I'm not fully aware of Matt Clement's medical situation or condition. I do know, however, that he was a lightning rod for comebackers, as if they had his name on them.

I won't fully say that Pavano was outright bluffing, as if he was just sitting on the bench collecting fat paychecks. However, when he'd had some injury early in 2007, he'd waited awhile before informing the Yanks (GM Brian Cashman and Joe Torre) of this, which perturbed them both. Things like that don't play too well with fans.

Regardless, he'd never gotten any season-ending injuries or anything dramatic. No bats flew into his face. It was generally him twisting an ankle, a hammy pull or something. One of these minor things which keeps someone on the bench for a few days. Every little thing that a junior varsity player has, he gets, but he takes about the whole year off when these things happen.

If he needs Tommy John surgery, so be it. If he's unable to pitch until 2009, then his Yankee contract would have expired by then. If he rebounds as a very good pitcher and shows some strong incentive to play and play to win, then his entire Yankee career would've been one just collecting paychecks, since he hardly would've ever earned it, nor would he have made much effort to earn it, in my opinion.

[Los Bravos]

Considering that it's Pavano, maybe he's been healthy the last couple of years, but just hasn't realized he's supposed to let anyone know.

[digglahhh]

I wouldn't call one of the forumers here dishonest in any way. Nor incompetent. I was just offering my advice, in that if you have one of your customers, that the manager should at least know that the employee is skilled in what they're asked to do.

I didn't think that you would, but your post kinda implied it, and I assumed it to be unintentional.

Sometimes people use things "as examples". If I said that I was the CEO (which I'm not), hired you as my CFO, then that was one example I'd used here, but I'm not a corporate CEO. Just for argument's sake is all. :)

You made it clear that you were using a hypothetical. BK told the story as a first person anecdote.


I wouldn't say that I'm "adamant" at his lack of work ethic. I just think that he's a bit lazy. Perhaps Torre never held his feet to the fire and clearly insisted that he bust his buns out there. Torre & Mel Stottlemyre (former pitch coach and ex-Yankee pitcher) were very strong when David Wells was here and he'd slacked off in his performance, allowing a few "lazy starts".

Okay, if that's your opinion, cool. I don't have a differing opinion really. Rather, I don't think I'm informed enough to offer one.

I just think that Carl Pavano hasn't made a full and concentrated effort to be in the finest shape possible. To me, if you're making $1m a year, which in the corporate world, seems like a lot to me, you should be well-prepared for what you do. If you are a doctor, you come prepared to perform those exams. If you are a surgeon, you are fully prepared to do the surgery and are fully aware of your patient's condition. If you are a teacher, you have studied your notes and can answer questions. If you are a pilot, you know your route and can guide that plan from airport to 40,000 feet above to another smooth landing.

To me, when you make $10m/yr, that's insane money, and if you don't come fully prepared to do the job, then I believe that's beyond unacceptable to me.

I've made my opinions on this known many times in the past. As bizarre as it sounds, the money is irrelevant. At the lower fringes of the pay scale, you'll find those who are lazy because they don't deem the wages sufficient motivation to work, but that trend disappears pretty quickly as we go up the economic ladder. Work ethic is an individual thing, it is a characteristic that one possesses independent of money. Simply put, if you were given a 20% raise to do your same job, you would not become 20% more productive, nor should anybody expect to see a 20% increase in your work ethic. Are we to assume that Alex Rodriguez should be four times as prepared to do his job as David Wright?

Ironically, it is the conventional wisdom/media-parroted cliche that the reverse is true. All this hub is made around "contract years," implying that once a players hit paydirt they (naturally or expectedly) see a decrease in motivation. Of course, when these discussions are brought up, contract year performances like the one Andruw Jones put forth last year are wholly ignored.


I'm not sure which verdict you're referring to. So that we're both on the same page here, would you please care to state what you think that the verdict is from most fans? Be they fans in general, here on BBF, or Yankees fans, please state your thoughts.

Basically, that he is a lazy bum. Yankee fans resent him. They feel he ostensibly stole money from them. Many think he didn't give his all to a rehab effort, and he is referenced as an example of the terrible recent personnel decisions. I'm assuming he doesn't have a great view of the fans.

[plask_stirlac]

What happened to the long-time defense of a World Champion, with a 1.40 ERA that year?

Yes, he's gotten hurt again and again. If it were a broken hip like Bo Jackson, or a stroke, then would it be okay and he's still tough?

Throwing a baseball thousands of times for a small zone is pretty messed up, physically. It's not natural, and it's impressive these guys stay as healthy as they do. They're supposed to be on point after throwing it 70, 80, 90 times (in a start), then keep gutting it out to 105, doing it month after month.

The greatest pitcher ever, per effectiveness, probably blew out his elbow or shoulder, or it wouldn't surprise me at all.

Unless you think (and proof would help) that he legitimately does not want to do well for the Yankees, when he busted his butt for the hapless Marlins before they caught fire, then what is the beef with him? He blew out his arm and isn't likely to be able to get anyone out, so be it. And if he pushes it and loses basic control of his arm via a severed nerve or something, and can barely shake a hand with his right, then who is pleased? Who helps him out? It's different, but have you seen old NFL players that battled? They're devastated in some cases and cared for less than is deserved.

Even if he had the heart of Lefty Carlton or Spahn, and could pitch 150 innings without having a great arm and not really doing well at all compared to 24 year-olds, then he therefore isn't doing well at all to a 5.70 ERA or something and not helping. Get a AAA player or someone, which they'll do now.

Carl Pavano has to be one of the most uninspiring and unmotivated players of all time in any sport. Seriously.

Yet he has more rings, as a crucial part, than A-Rod and Vladdy.

I in no way think that makes him better, they're much better, but he sure is ripped into for suffering calamity.