Hand Action - Mike Schmidt.

[FiveFrameSwing]

The following is from the book “The Mike Schmidt Study”.

We’ve discussed “hand action” off an on. I’d be interested in others thoughts on this information.


Hand Action

Hand speed means nothing in golf because the ball is stationary, so the golfer employs the front side and lead arm for accuracy. He can even stop his swing and start over if he wants to. But to the hitter, hand speed is everything because the pitch is traveling at high speed in unpredictable ways and sometimes you have to swing.

The hitter will go a long way when he realizes that his hand speed is vital in governing the start, delay, speed, and direction of his stroke. The third key on Rod Carew’s list of ten keys to good hitting is: “Use your hands. Become an aggressive hands hitter. This allows you to wait longer on the pitch and react to changes in pitch direction.”

Building the skill of hand quickness is as easy as switching on a light. First, understand that hand speed is a physical concept. The body must become aware of how the hand and wrist muscles should work. You can get this concept by taking your stance and feel only the power in your hands, your grip. Let nothing else register. Grip the bat firmly at the “pad” of the hand located at the base of the fingers, not back in the palm. Squeeze and release the handle of your bat with your fingers to burn in the feel of strength. Now start your swing with your hands only, starting your hands from the launching position. Again, hands only. You’ll find that the other body parts, particularly the hip rotation, fall in line automatically. Once you have the feel in your hands, never lose it. Rehearse it as much as you can.

…

Thus, from the launching position it’s “hands first.”

…

Remember, any premature movement toward the pitcher, a false start or flinch by the hands, will incorrectly allow the front shoulders to open. This is why hand work is vital. Hands must stay back!

Frank Howard: “Lock up that front side until the hands begin working.”

Exactly. Hands first, front side second.

Frank Howard: “I like to use the expression ‘we have a fast hip [front side opening] action, but it’s a late action.’ This makes it a snap. If I open the hips [and front shoulder] too soon, the front side is going to fly open and I’ll lose my power.”

Al Kaline: “My secret was to always keep that front shoulder closed until the last instant. That way my hands had to start.”

Clarence Jones: “Hitters sometimes hurry their feet [knee cock, stride, landing, resulting in premature hip turn] and you have to slow them down. When a hitter hurries his feet, his actions happen too fast and he’ll drag the bat. Slow his feet down. Slow feet [deliberate, relaxed movement] results in quick hands.”

These men are saying the same thing. Combined, they read like this: “When a hitter hurries his actions, the front side opens up too soon and upsets the rhythm of the swing. The power is lost and the bat drags because the hands cannot work.”

Remember, all hitting movements except the hands and hips are slow, steady, relaxed, fluid. Keeping the front side closed is vital. If Al Kaline calls it his secret we’d do well to label it top priority.

To capsulize, there are two kinds of swings. One is pulled through by the front arm and front shoulder, which tends to restrict hip rotation. The other type of swing is dominated by the hand snap, using both hands. The second is by far the quicker, and facilitates hip rotation.

[jbooth]

The following is from the book “The Mike Schmidt Study”.

We’ve discussed “hand action” off an on. I’d be interested in others thoughts on this information.


Hand Action

Hand speed means nothing in golf because the ball is stationary, so the golfer employs the front side and lead arm for accuracy. He can even stop his swing and start over if he wants to. But to the hitter, hand speed is everything because the pitch is traveling at high speed in unpredictable ways and sometimes you have to swing.

The hitter will go a long way when he realizes that his hand speed is vital in governing the start, delay, speed, and direction of his stroke. The third key on Rod Carew’s list of ten keys to good hitting is: “Use your hands. Become an aggressive hands hitter. This allows you to wait longer on the pitch and react to changes in pitch direction.”

Building the skill of hand quickness is as easy as switching on a light. First, understand that hand speed is a physical concept. The body must become aware of how the hand and wrist muscles should work. You can get this concept by taking your stance and feel only the power in your hands, your grip. Let nothing else register. Grip the bat firmly at the “pad” of the hand located at the base of the fingers, not back in the palm. Squeeze and release the handle of your bat with your fingers to burn in the feel of strength. Now start your swing with your hands only, starting your hands from the launching position. Again, hands only. You’ll find that the other body parts, particularly the hip rotation, fall in line automatically. Once you have the feel in your hands, never lose it. Rehearse it as much as you can.

…

Thus, from the launching position it’s “hands first.”

…

Remember, any premature movement toward the pitcher, a false start or flinch by the hands, will incorrectly allow the front shoulders to open. This is why hand work is vital. Hands must stay back!

Frank Howard: “Lock up that front side until the hands begin working.”

Exactly. Hands first, front side second.

Frank Howard: “I like to use the expression ‘we have a fast hip [front side opening] action, but it’s a late action.’ This makes it a snap. If I open the hips [and front shoulder] too soon, the front side is going to fly open and I’ll lose my power.”

Al Kaline: “My secret was to always keep that front shoulder closed until the last instant. That way my hands had to start.”

Clarence Jones: “Hitters sometimes hurry their feet [knee cock, stride, landing, resulting in premature hip turn] and you have to slow them down. When a hitter hurries his feet, his actions happen too fast and he’ll drag the bat. Slow his feet down. Slow feet [deliberate, relaxed movement] results in quick hands.”

These men are saying the same thing. Combined, they read like this: “When a hitter hurries his actions, the front side opens up too soon and upsets the rhythm of the swing. The power is lost and the bat drags because the hands cannot work.”

Remember, all hitting movements except the hands and hips are slow, steady, relaxed, fluid. Keeping the front side closed is vital. If Al Kaline calls it his secret we’d do well to label it top priority.

To capsulize, there are two kinds of swings. One is pulled through by the front arm and front shoulder, which tends to restrict hip rotation. The other type of swing is dominated by the hand snap, using both hands. The second is by far the quicker, and facilitates hip rotation.

Personally, I'll stick with Ted Williams; "The hips lead the hands."

[JeffK 29]

I have the book and read the book and more than once I found myself questioning what he was promoting. This was one of those sections. I'm cetainly not qualified to 2nd guess Mike Schmidt but I gotta belive that I'm interpreting what he's saying way different than what he intended. He seems contradictory at times.

I'm with JB on this.

[FiveFrameSwing]

Personally, I'll stick with Ted Williams; "The hips lead the hands."

I agree. The hips lead the hands.

The hips also lead the shoulders.

Consider the notion of "maintaining the box" or "maintaining lead arm extension". In both cases one is trying to maintain the angle in the lead arm from the launch position until just prior to contact.

What I'm got out of Mike Schmidt's material is that he differentiates between the lead shoulder starting the upper body rotation and the hands starting the upper body rotation. He suggests that the hands start the upper body rotation and not the lead shoulder.

[BoardMember]

I agree. The hips lead the hands.

The hips also lead the shoulders.

Consider the notion of "maintaining the box" or "maintaining lead arm extension". In both cases one is trying to maintain the angle in the lead arm from the launch position until just prior to contact.

What I'm got out of Mike Schmidt's material is that he differentiates between the lead shoulder starting the upper body rotation and the hands starting the upper body rotation. He suggests that the hands start the upper body rotation and not the lead shoulder.

He obviously suggests a lot of things that are wrong. Why give this any more attention then the rest of the wrong information?

[Slapper23]

I like Mike Schmidt's take on the swing. Hands, then hips, meaning hand/arm action gets the upper body started without the shoulders opening prematurely. Hips lead the way expoused by Williams is still valid, a gold standard of sorts, as hips do lead the way in rotation. Hands, then hips in a nut shell.

On a side note, I believe it was Scott that said the lead arm shoud be dominant, as a lot of HOF's were left hitting and right throwing. Well, I don't know what the percentage of these kind of hitters are in the Hall, but I do know what Williams said about the subject. In his book, 'Science of Hitting', Williams says there were 9 outstanding left-hand hitters in baseball history. Of the nine, Williams, Cobb, and Shoeless Joe Jackson were the only natural right handers. Let me emphasize - only 3 left-handed hitting, right handed throwing greats. The remaining six - Ruth, Gehrig, Sisler, Terry, Musial, and Tris Speaker were lefties all the way - throwing and batting left-handed.

In Williams opinion, the power hand should be the hand closest to the point of impact - the top hand. I would definitely agree with him. Williams went on to say he thinks he would have been a better hitter (that's a scary thought!) if he were a left-handed thrower.

What I'm got out of Mike Schmidt's material is that he differentiates between the lead shoulder starting the upper body rotation and the hands starting the upper body rotation. He suggests that the hands start the upper body rotation and not the lead shoulder.

Bingo! Yahtzee! We have liftoff! Schmidt is a smart guy.

Mike

[jbooth]

Hands, then hips in a nut shell.

Then how come almost every MLB hitter's hands are moving back into load while the hips are opening?

He suggests that the hands start the upper body rotation and not the lead shoulder.

Illogical. Since the hips go first, and the hands go back, the hips make the shoulder turn which pulls the hands forward. Now, I will say that one does pull the knob using the arms, but whether they know it or not, the shoulder has already started to move the hands.

Yes, the cue is to keep the shoulder in, but it has to turn after the hips force it to. The arm action used to pull the bat comes as the hips turn the shoulders.

His front shoulder stays in while his hips move, and his hands go back. The shoulder will move before he can get the hands going forward with arm power. He WILL use the arms also to pull the bat, but the hip/shoulder turn gets the hands started.

http://firstpickclub.com/video/bondships2.gif

His hands go back as his hips start to turn. The bat moves off the yellow line while the hips continue to turn, and his hands stay back at his shoulder, and move forward with his shoulder rotation. His hands don't go before the shoulders. He does use arm power to try to get the hands to bypass the shoulders, but that happens after the hips and shoulders pull the hands. "Hips lead the hands." The hands must move in perfect synch with the shoulders. They don't go ahead of the shoulders, or get "dragged" by the shoulders. I agree that the arms move the hands, they don't just hang on to the bat, but they don't go ahead of the shoulders.

http://firstpickclub.com/video/bonds01b.gif

[Slapper23]

Then how come almost every MLB hitter's hands are moving back into load while the hips are opening?


Jim, that doesn't take away from the fact that hand/arm action initiates movement, triggers synching and timing of the swing.

Jim, I would say the hands are already beginning to flatten before the shoulders turn. Goes right along with what Schmidt is saying. If you are pulling, you're dragging. Yeah, eventually the shoulders turn, they have to as they lose the battle to hips leading the way and resulting stretch reflex. But this is a much different action than pulling swing movements of lead shoulder/lead arm powered rotation of the upper torso.

Bonds gets a running start with the hands/and arms prior to shoulder rotation. When the shoulders do turn he's already underway. The lead arm may be pulling to help align and guide swing path, but I'm with Williams in the the top hand/arm is the power arm and is pushing/driving the bat through contact. Williams said "the baseball swing is a hard push-swing. I do not disagree with this, but do want to better understand it.

Schmidt was and is no dummy. He did this as one of the greats. I would at least try to honestly consider what he's saying rather than some dismissing it off the cuff because it interferes with their current belief.

Mike

[hiddengem]

I have the book and read the book and more than once I found myself questioning what he was promoting. This was one of those sections. I'm cetainly not qualified to 2nd guess Mike Schmidt but I gotta belive that I'm interpreting what he's saying way different than what he intended. He seems contradictory at times.

I'm with JB on this.

What exactly are you questioning?

[JeffK 29]

What exactly are you questioning?

The same thing being discussed by slapper and jb. If I hear/think hands first, I fling my hands to the ball and everything else follows. Does mot appear to be what I see on video. If someone has ingrained hip rotation like you and all other high level hitters, quick hands probably means something different. So while not qualified to 2nd guess Schmidt, his hands statements confuse a low level guy like me.

[hiddengem]

The same thing being discussed by slapper and jb. If I hear/think hands first, I fling my hands to the ball and everything else follows. Does mot appear to be what I see on video. If someone has ingrained hip rotation like you and all other high level hitters, quick hands probably means something different. So while not qualified to 2nd guess Schmidt, his hands statements confuse a low level guy like me.

Ok, I understand. I think what he was getting at was if you really "muscle up" and "in your mind" innitiate the swing with your shoulders..what will happen many times is that you will pull off the ball and end up dragging the bat through the zone. If you think about using good quick hands and getting good strong hip rotation into foot plant, things will fall into place.

We all know, Mike Included, that the barell eventually is under your hands. Its not possible to have it any other way. However, if you "trick" yourself in your mind into thinking you an keep the barell up, it will prevent your from losing the barell behind you to quick and looping to the ball.

This is a good clip to see, that yes, the barell is under his hands at some point..but it doesn't happen to early.
http://firstpickclub.com/video/bonds01b.gif

[Slapper23]

If I hear/think hands first, I fling my hands to the ball and everything else follows.

Jeff, I agree, that would be wrong and is not what I or Schmidt is talking about. Hips still go first, but the hand/arm action sets everything up for a quick, explosive reaction to the ball. Hey, you're no more low level than the rest of us. You're trying to learn just like I am.

Mike

If you think about using good quick hands and getting good strong hip rotation into foot plant, things will fall into place.


Gem is on top of it with the above remark. Good stuff!

[BoardMember]

Jim, that doesn't take away from the fact that hand/arm action initiates movement, triggers synching and timing of the swing.

Jim, I would say the hands are already beginning to flatten before the shoulders turn.

The hands are not flattening themselves. The rear elbow begining to slot is talking care of the entire sequence of flattening. No one "drops the bat to plane" using the hands.

Video and experience supports the rear elbow begining to slot is what flattens the lead hand to the plane.

It isn't until the elbow is fully slotted, AFTER shoulder turn starts, that the top hand is sync'd to the lead hand in becoming flat to the plane.

In otherwords, the hands aren't doing anything to flatten themselves. Actions of the humerus are responsible for flattening the hands to the plane.

Goes right along with what Schmidt is saying. If you are pulling, you're dragging. Yeah, eventually the shoulders turn, they have to as they lose the battle to hips leading the way and resulting stretch reflex. But this is a much different action than pulling swing movements of lead shoulder/lead arm powered rotation of the upper torso.

I've never understood this position. Saying the shoulders "lose the battle with the hips" is infering that the hips are pulling the shoulders around to contact. This is simply not true, and completely counter to the stretch reflex response. The stretch reflex is what "signals" the torso/shoulder rotation ENGINE to "power up in sequence".

Bonds gets a running start with the hands/and arms prior to shoulder rotation.

He sure does. As do most hitters as they load back during opening rotation into plant. But the "running start" isn't toward contact is it.

When the shoulders do turn he's already underway. The lead arm may be pulling to help align and guide swing path, but I'm with Williams in the the top hand/arm is the power arm and is pushing/driving the bat through contact. Williams said "the baseball swing is a hard push-swing. I do not disagree with this, but do want to better understand it.

Oh my gaud! Did you just say "PUSH"? I can't believe you just said the swing is a push and you don't disagree! You can't say "PUSH" and be a member of HI, don't you know that?

Well, there is hope for you after all Mike......

You're right, there is a push. And the push is powered by the torso/shoulder rotation ENGINE behind the hands/arms.

Is that what you've been missing? It is, isn't it!

When you ALLOW YOURSELF to fully understand the concept you've just laid out, you will understand the role of the torso/shoulder ENGINE, and why bat speed is more then doubled when that engine powers up in sequence.

THE ARMS/HANDS CAN'T PUSH THEMSELVES TO CONTACT WITH ENOUGH FORCE TO MAKE A DIFFERENCE MIKE. AND NEITHER CAN THE HIPS PUSH THE ARMS/HAND TO CONTACT.

You've just exposed one of the biggest point of contentions with HI theory. :thumbsup:

[JeffK 29]

Jeff, I agree, that would be wrong and is not what I or Schmidt is talking about. Hips still go first, but the hand/arm action sets everything up for a quick, explosive reaction to the ball. Hey, you're no more low level than the rest of us. You're trying to learn just like I am.

Mike



Gem is on top of it with the above remark. Good stuff!

Gem/Slapper, Thanks for the clarification. Good stuff.

Curious what you both think of a comment I left in another thread regarding shoulder rotation...it relates to the timing of rear hand release to the ball. I've struggled with the same issue as Steve777.

Jeff

[Slapper23]

Coach, what is obvious is your speaking for me isn't working. What is obvious, and it really is too bad, is you won't allow yourself the benefit of logical reasoning. I think you won't allow yourself to see what is really taking place in the swing. You're stuck in reverse. Hey, I've been there before, but in keeping an open mind about this stuff I moved forward in my learning. At this point, it is approaching hopelessness in discussing hitting with you. IMO, you have it wrong. And your analysis is wrong. We've discussed and discussed this, and we still do not agree.

You should continue with what you believe until such time you ever make a change, an evolution in your thinking. Are you at that magical point in the learning process where there is no more to learn? You have all the answers? It would seem you think that is the case. But I really think you know better.

Mike

[hiddengem]

The You're right, there is a push. And the push is powered by the torso/shoulder rotation ENGINE behind the hands/arms.


Are these few frames what you are referring to in this post of yours?

[BoardMember]

Are these few frames what you are referring to in this post of yours?

David, If you don't mind, I'd rather use this clip. I love the "pop" you get here:

http://i30.tinypic.com/veqdn9.gif



Here it is in slowmo. Regarding the upper:

Your elbow begins to slot, flatten the lead hand.

Then, your shoulders start first.

Watch your hands "pop" off your shoulders to contact

It's Quick baby.....Way Quick.......:

http://i31.tinypic.com/25evg55.gif

Feedback please........

[hiddengem]

I put a pretty good swing on that ball. Currently I am working on not walking quite so far away from my hands. I'll get the feeling that I have to pull to the ball, unlike many of the great hitters that don't travel so far with their stride. I'd also like to get rid of that early rollover that causes me to break my helmet in the dugout and snap bats over my knee.:eek:

David, If you don't mind, I'd rather use this clip. I love the "pop" you get here:

http://i30.tinypic.com/veqdn9.gif



Here it is in slowmo. Regarding the upper:

Your elbow begins to slot, flatten the lead hand.

Then, your shoulders start first.

Watch your hands "pop" off your shoulders to contact

It's Quick baby.....Way Quick.......:

http://i31.tinypic.com/25evg55.gif

Feedback please........

[BoardMember]

I agree totally with your new approach Dave. I said to Steve a long time ago when I saw his swing that his load was drifting to far back outside the core to be powered into contact. He whole heartedly agreed with my assessment.

What I meant was, if the hands drift too far outside the rear shoulder, it cannot power the hands/arms into contact.

This is why I have a problem with "emphsising" to much lead arm extension. It pushes the hands to far outside the core.

IMO, You will benefit from this new work.

I love your swing dude. That's why you are where you are.......

And by the way, if I say anything you feel is off base about hitting, I'd love for you to comment so can learn what you feel.

If you recall, when I PM'd you about Richards highly negetive response to my "kicking it into contact with the top hand", you told me not to listen to him, and that the top hand absolutely kicks it into contact" like I described.

One thing I can respect is someone who "walks the walk" over someone who "talks the talk".

All the best........


I put a pretty good swing on that ball. Currently I am working on not walking quite so far away from my hands. I'll get the feeling that I have to pull to the ball, unlike many of the great hitters that don't travel so far with their stride. I'd also like to get rid of that early rollover that causes me to break my helmet in the dugout and snap bats over my knee.:eek:

[BoardMember]

Coach, what is obvious is your speaking for me isn't working.

I'm don't speak for you. You speak for yourself. I'm just reading what you write, and quoting it. Like this for example:
"the baseball swing is a hard push-swing. I do not disagree with this,

I thought you were finally on to something here. Guess I was wrong. No problem Mike. I'm backward, your forward. That's your opinion, and you're entitled.

My opinion is that you are missing a vital engine in the swing. I just got a little excited when you said you agreed with Williams that it was a push- swing, but needed to understand it better.

I was trying to point out your missing link when you said you needed to understand it more, which is what you also said.

IMO, you will never understand it as long as you "bypass the push engine".

The following is rhetoric IMO........

What is obvious, and it really is too bad, is you won't allow yourself the benefit of logical reasoning. I think you won't allow yourself to see what is really taking place in the swing. You're stuck in reverse. Hey, I've been there before, but in keeping an open mind about this stuff I moved forward in my learning.

You see, in my opinion you are stuck also. I was just attempting to get you "un-stuck"! You obviously don't need my help, because, as you say about me, you are beyond learning, as you know it all, it would seem.

There, now we're on the same page..........

At this point, it is approaching hopelessness in discussing hitting with you. IMO, you have it wrong. And your analysis is wrong. We've discussed and discussed this, and we still do not agree.

You should continue with what you believe until such time you ever make a change, an evolution in your thinking.

My analysis comes from many years of experience, both at the plate, and in the coaches box, and with much success Mike. I didn't make it up yesterday, or "last year" like someone else we know.

Are you at that magical point in the learning process where there is no more to learn? You have all the answers? It would seem you think that is the case. But I really think you know better.

Mike

No Mike, I'm not at some magical point. But I am past the point of understanding "quick fixes" for inefficiencly like "early handle torque", "swiveling", and "bypassing" in the swing.

I have advocated Late Handle Torque since I joined eteamz, and this board a long time back. But of course Richard called it my "push" into contact..........

He specifically said to me on eteamz, "you can't do anything with the hands that late in the swing, and especially into contact". "Launch and spend won't allow it".

How does that square with Williams Mike? His stuff is full of contradictions.

There is an entire thread on eteamz about it, if you care to find it. Look for this clip, and if you find it, you'll be there:

http://i25.tinypic.com/3502yq9.gif

This is when I knew that he knew nothing about the swing, and had never been in the box in high level competition. He was making stuff up because he doesn't understand it, and mainly, he couldn't get his own kid off his backside with effiecient movement or rotation, so he made up stuff about the arms and hands to compensate. Simple as that........Anyone who has followed his progression knows that.

This is why you "torque the handle early", and "swivel the bat", and "turn the forearms", and "Rotate the Triangle", and on and on and on......

"Launch and Spend" IS early handle torque. You get the bat going first because "nothing else will go" with inefficiency and lack of understanding.

Snap the Pole Mike. If that isn't "a quick pull with both arms" I don't know what is. Go back and look at THE demo. HE IS PULLING ON A POLE THAT REPRESENTS A BAT. I use that as what NOT to do when teaching my student. Don't Pull! Push! Can't you see the contradiction here?

So you see, I've been around the block a few times with this stuff. I'll never stop learning. I just know "quick fixes" due to lack of understanding what makes things work are "off my plate", so to speak......

So who is past who in terms of evolution?

And if you choose not to speak hitting with me because I offer my experience and opinions, because they don't square with yours, I'm fine with that.........

No sweat off my back........

Believe me when I tell you, when you actually say something I don't think I understand, or am not sure about, I'll be all ears. Its just that so far, that hasn't happened......

Best regards Mike..........

[FiveFrameSwing]

We all know, Mike Included, that the barell eventually is under your hands. Its not possible to have it any other way. However, if you "trick" yourself in your mind into thinking you an keep the barell up, it will prevent your from losing the barell behind you to quick and looping to the ball.


It always amazes me that so many former pros advocate a swing with the bat level to the ground. It's like HG said, this isn't what is happening, but it is a cue that some use.

I wonder about this. I find it difficult to use a cue that I know isn't achieved. Seems to me that using a cue that is more reality based would be more advantegous. At the same time I have to acknowledge that some good hitters use this cue.

[FiveFrameSwing]

Currently I am working on not walking quite so far away from my hands.

I found this comment of yours interesting.

According to Chris Yeager there is a direct correlation between the horizontal distance between the hands and the rear knee in the launch position and the ability to hit for power.

Can you explain further why you would go in a different direction?

[BoardMember]

I put a pretty good swing on that ball. Currently I am working on not walking quite so far away from my hands. I'll get the feeling that I have to pull to the ball, unlike many of the great hitters that don't travel so far with their stride. I'd also like to get rid of that early rollover that causes me to break my helmet in the dugout and snap bats over my knee.:eek:

Dave, I know I far from qualified to offer information to you about hitting. So forgive that I love to talk hitting.

You're probably way ahead of this, but regarding what you call early roll-over, have you ever looked at how your shoulders seem to stop abruptly at contact, causing the arms to collapse the follow through early?

You are 2 handed to finished (don't let go with the top hand), so it feels to me like your shoulders need to continue moving the handle further into follow through.

I've notice most of the best hitters (both 1 and 2 handers) keep the shoulders moving through contact thereby moving the follow through around the front shoulder. Do you see any logic in this?

See what you think:

http://i32.tinypic.com/15q3prp.gif
http://i25.tinypic.com/30wnkn5.gifhttp://i30.tinypic.com/14t8zr4.gifhttp://i27.tinypic.com/35mjvno.gifhttp://i30.tinypic.com/1znyhqo.gifhttp://i31.tinypic.com/5fn2v6.gif

ARod seems to get away with it because he lets go with the top hand:

http://i26.tinypic.com/2jdgu9g.gif

[Slapper23]

Coach, I don't mind talking hitting with you, except we seem to keep going in circles. The "snap the pole" cue is misunderstood by you, IMO. It is not a pulling action like I see in lead shoulder/lead arm powered rotation of the upper torso. I see a lot of hitters pull the arms and hands into rotation. They do not get the hands flat quickly. They may have late batspeed, but they are not as quick, as a result. Maybe some can quicken up the swing with "brute force" rotation of the middle, but IMO it leaves little room for on-the-fly adjusting of the swing path and gives less "pop" as you mentioned to Gem.

The snap the pole is about getting the hands flat quickly and creating early bat speed through arm/hand action - a quick supination/pronation of the hands created by rotation of the hands and forearms - lateral tilt, weight of the bat, and gravity. This movement creates a "whip" of the bat at launch point and gets the swing on the swing path sooner. Further giving the hitter the ability to wait longer and more time to read the pitch. And I think this movement also points to the much larger role of the top hand as the power hand, as explained by Williams. This is a movement I see in ML hitters game swings, but not so much in amateur hitters.

I respect your experience, as I've stated on eteamz, and I take nothing away from it. But I also respect Mike Schmidt's experience at the ultimate level, and is one reason I agree with his swing thoughts detailed here, along with those of Howard, Kaline, and Carew, among others.

Mike

[jbooth]

The snap the pole is about getting the hands flat quickly and creating early bat speed through arm/hand action - a quick supination/pronation of the hands created by rotation of the hands and forearms

Mike

The flatten doesn't happen with a "snap the pole" action, or by supination/pronation of the hands by forearm rotation. The The hands flatten from upper arm action. It's the change in elbow positions that get the hands flat. Pros try NOT to mess with the barrel of the bat early. They control it, but mostly leave it alone until late, when they snap it into the ball.

It's you that needs to open your mind and try to understand the true bio-mechanics involved in getting the barrel down and the hands flat.

I showed you how it works here. What don't you understand? His hands move up and back, and then out, and he isn't snaping the bat head down.

http://firstpickclub.com/video/bonds01b.gif

[Slapper23]

It's the change in elbow positions that get the hands flat.

Jim, we have a glimmer of agreement here. I use an elbow cue to relate to my hitters the importance o fgetting the hands flat as soon as possible. But IMO, it goes back to hand/arm action of which the elbows are a part.

The flatten doesn't happen with a "snap the pole" action, or by supination/pronation of the hands by forearm rotation.

We differ on the action, but if you like, I could say it happens from hand/forearm, upper arm, elbow action along with lateral tilting action, gravity and the weight of the bat. It's a quick, whip-like move and something I see in game swings of the best.

Pros try NOT to mess with the barrel of the bat early. They control it, but mostly leave it alone until late, when they snap it into the ball.

I will defer to Kaline, Schmidt, Carew, and Howard in advocating early hand action. These guys were some of the best.

Mike

[Chris O'Leary]

I've notice most of the best hitters (both 1 and 2 handers) keep the shoulders moving through contact thereby moving the follow through around the front shoulder. Do you see any logic in this?

While this is true of some people, Pujols does stop his shoulders just before contact.

You could argue that this helps him whip the head of the bat out into the path of the ball.

[JeffK 29]

While this is true of some people, Pujols does stop his shoulders just before contact.

You could argue that this helps him whip the head of the bat out into the path of the ball.

Are you saying he stops them on purpose?

[BoardMember]

While this is true of some people, Pujols does stop his shoulders just before contact.


Pujols is a "one hander". David is a two hander.......

[jbooth]

I will defer to Kaline, Schmidt, Carew, and Howard in advocating early hand action. These guys were some of the best.

Mike

I didn't say that they don't have hand action. I said that they don't use the hands early, for the purpose of moving the barrel at the ball. They are moving the knob around and setting the barrel in place to be fired at the ball.

[jbooth]

Saying the shoulders "lose the battle with the hips" is infering that the hips are pulling the shoulders around to contact.

I think you're getting into semantics here. The hips DO pull the shoulders around. How detailed do you want to get about the "how?"

The hips move while the shoulders (clavicle) stay still. This twists the spine and stretches the obliques. At some point you reach max stretch and twist, and the rib cage, clavicle, etc. Must move along with the hips. So, the hips do start to pull the shoulders around, but then the contraction of the obliques takes over and accelerates the shoulders. You CAN turn the shoulders without the hips pulling them, but that isn't what happens in a perfect swing.


You're right, there is a push. And the push is powered by the torso/shoulder rotation ENGINE behind the hands/arms.

I understand what you're saying, but I certainly wouldn't get in the habit of telling a student that they push the bat. Rotational force is pulling from one side and pushing on the other simultaneously.

When you ALLOW YOURSELF to fully understand the concept you've just laid out, you will understand the role of the torso/shoulder ENGINE, and why bat speed is more than doubled when that engine powers up in sequence.

Yes, it powers up and fires just as the hips stretch the obliques.

[BoardMember]

I think you're getting into symantics here. The hips DO pull the shoulders around. How detailed do you want to get about the "how?"

The hips move while the shoulders (clavicle) stay still. This twists the spine and stretches the obliques. At some point you reach max stretch and twist, and the rib cage, clavicle, etc. Must move along with the hips. So, the hips do start to pull the shoulders around, but then the contraction of the obliques takes over and accelerates the shoulders.

Jim, all of what you said above is just repeating what I said in a nut shell. I bolded my "nut shell" in your quote above.

What I said was the hips don't pull the shoulders around "to contact".

Do you disagree with that? Or were you just agreeing with me?

I understand what you're saying, but I certainly wouldn't get in the habit of telling a student that they push the bat. Rotational force is pulling from one side and pushing on the other simultaneously.

I was talking to a coach Jim, not a kid.........

Yes, it powers up and fires just as the hips stretch the obliques.

Which was the bottom line of my entire post wasn't it..........:confused:

The stretch reflex is what "signals" the torso/shoulder rotation ENGINE to "power up in sequence".

[jbooth]

What I said was the hips don't pull the shoulders around "to contact".

Do you disagree with that?

No, I don't disagree with that.

You said,

Saying the shoulders "lose the battle with the hips" is infering that the hips are pulling the shoulders around to contact.

In response to Slapper23. I don't think he was inferring that they pulled the shoulders to contact. He was acknowledging that the stretch reflex in the obliques, caused by hip turn, makes the shoulders "eventually" go, meaning that you can't hold them still forever. At least I think (hope) that's what he meant.

[Slapper23]

In response to Slapper23. I don't think he was inferring that they pulled the shoulders to contact. He was acknowledging that the stretch reflex in the obliques, caused by hip turn, makes the shoulders "eventually" go, meaning that you can't hold them still forever. At least I think (hope) that's what he meant.


Jim, thank you, yes that is what I was talking about. Coach sometimes plays with my words and meaning to suit his taste. :)

Mike

[jbooth]

Jim, thank you, yes that is what I was talking about. Coach sometimes plays with my words and meaning to suit his taste. :)

Mike

Well, you are somewhat a follower of a guy who thinks the shoulders are bypassed, so it's not hard to misunderstand you.

[BoardMember]

Mike, as I told you before, I quote your words "exactly", and respond directly to what you write.........

I'm not expected to read your mind as well am I...? :dance



Jim, thank you, yes that is what I was talking about. Coach sometimes plays with my words and meaning to suit his taste. :)

Mike

[Slapper23]

Coach, I think the problem is you misread my mind...you get it wrong, respectfully speaking, of course. :) Come on, let's play nice now.

Jim, I would say the "shoulders bypassed" cue is along the same lines as Schmidt's emphasis on hand action and less on early shoulder turn. As Schmidt says: Remember, any premature movement toward the pitcher, a false start or flinch by the hands, will incorrectly allow the front shoulders to open. This is why hand work is vital. Hands must stay back!

Frank Howard: “Lock up that front side until the hands begin working.”


And this AL Kaline quote is golden, I believe, Al Kaline: “My secret was to always keep that front shoulder closed until the last instant. That way my hands had to start.”

"Shoulders bypassed" refers to this early hand action/arm action which gets the upper torso in motion and begins the "snap the pole" move just before or as the front shoulders begins to turn. This "shoulders bypassed" move is in great contrast to the lead arm/lead shoulder pulled rotation of the upper torso. It uses brute force rotation coupled with the great importance given to the lead arm/lead shoulder to pull the upper body through.

The snap the pole move all happens as the hands stay back. Compare this move to lead arm'lead shoulder pulling which drags the bat through the zone with little adjustability. Maybe not drag in the traditional sense of rear elbow leading hands, but dragging/pulling the bat through.

With lead arm/lead shoulder powered rotation, the lead arm/hand is given importance as the power hand. With "shoulder's bypassed", the top hand/arm take on a much more important role as the power hand.

I don't want to leave out the lower torso because "hips do lead the way in creating separation and stretch. Stretch reflex is created as the hands stay back and hips lead, producing a sudden reversal of the upper torso - quick, powerful. The already turning bat created from running start and snap the pole connect into this stretch reflex at "cusp." '

Mike

[Slapper23]

Coach, here is an example of you messin' with my words, Saying the shoulders "lose the battle with the hips" is infering that the hips are pulling the shoulders around to contact. This is simply not true, and completely counter to the stretch reflex response.[/QUOTE]

I never inferred anything, you did. I didn't say the hips are pulling the shoulders around to contact - you did. For some reason, Jim knew/figured what I was talking about.

I actually said the folowing, Yeah, eventually the shoulders turn, they have to as they lose the battle to hips leading the way and resulting stretch reflex

Is stretch reflex about pulling? No. Is stretch reflex about muscle lengthening and contracting, producing sudden dynamic movement? Yes.

I rest my case. Case closed! :dance

Mike

[jbooth]

"Shoulders bypassed" refers to this early hand action/arm action which gets the upper torso in motion and begins the "snap the pole" move just before or as the front shoulders begins to turn. This "shoulders bypassed" move is in great contrast to the lead arm/lead shoulder pulled rotation of the upper torso. It uses brute force rotation coupled with the great importance given to the lead arm/lead shoulder to pull the upper body through.

The snap the pole move all happens as the hands stay back. Compare this move to lead arm'lead shoulder pulling which drags the bat through the zone with little adjustability. Maybe not drag in the traditional sense of rear elbow leading hands, but dragging/pulling the bat through.

With lead arm/lead shoulder powered rotation, the lead arm/hand is given importance as the power hand. With "shoulder's bypassed", the top hand/arm take on a much more important role as the power hand.

I don't want to leave out the lower torso because "hips do lead the way in creating separation and stretch. Stretch reflex is created as the hands stay back and hips lead, producing a sudden reversal of the upper torso - quick, powerful. The already turning bat created from running start and snap the pole connect into this stretch reflex at "cusp." '

Mike

I understand what you're saying and I kind of agree with some modification, in regard to the hand/shoulder action. But, I totally disagree with the "snap the pole" part.

"Shoulders bypassed" to describe what I think you mean, is a terrible way to describe it, and the hands don't snap the pole to get flat.

The scaps move, and the humerus moves in the shoulder joint and the hands move before the clavicle does, but the hands don't bypass the clavicle, and even though those things move first, the hands still mostly move with the shoulder/rib cage rotation.

[Slapper23]

Jim,

Thanks for reading and giving me your fair assessment. "Shoulders bypassed" may not be the best description and I've talked to Rich before about it. But I do get what he means when he uses the cue.

"Snap the pole" I believe is a great cue because the action it describes is what I see in video of the best. It's the difference between pulling the bat into the flat hands position and later in the swing path, and therefore farther away from the rear shoulder vs. a quick, running start of the bat by the sudden change of elbow position, if you will, that gets the hands flat right now while they are still held back and also creates a whipping running start.

We can agree to disagree on that for now. I respect your view on it.

Mike

[BoardMember]

Coach, here is an example of you messin' with my words, Saying the shoulders "lose the battle with the hips" is infering that the hips are pulling the shoulders around to contact. This is simply not true, and completely counter to the stretch reflex response.

I never inferred anything, you did. I didn't say the hips are pulling the shoulders around to contact - you did...............

Oh ya OK Mike, I see EXACTLY what you're saying.

This is from Eteamz, just 3 days ago.....Remember????:
"In your description, the hitters are shifting, then swinging - implying a full weight shift occurs then swing. "

You said that, not me...............I'm not implying anything of the sort. And the fact that Pujols is "shifting" into toe-touch, BEFORE heal plant, just solidifys the argument that there is "shift", before fully weighted plant, and before launch OR go.

Hmmmmmm..........So ya see Mike, I thought I was playing nice. :rofl:

I rest my case. Case closed! :dance

Mike

Well, all I can say is.......DITTO MIKE.........DITTO........:dance

[Slapper23]

Coach, you ARE a trip! Did you misread my quote highlighted in BOLD...I never inferred anything, you did. I didn't say the hips are pulling the shoulders around to contact - you did...............

Coach, I didn't say "I never inferred anything you did". Instead, I said "I never inferred anything, you did." Notice the comma? That little comma sure changes the meaning of my statement. You were inferring something from my statement above that I never said or meant. See the difference?

On your other examples from eteamz, so we both like to infer and imply. :) You are playing nice, Coach. I really like this side of you! :dance

Mike