Which suspected steroids-user has best shot at HoF?

[LGehrigFan]

In your opinion, which suspected player will have the best shot at making the Hall of Fame. If the writers were to induct one of them, who would it be? And I'm not going by only statistics. Barry Bonds has received a lot more heat for steroids than Roger Clemens, so maybe Clemens has a better shot. Who do think ?

I'll add a poll if enough people are interested in this threat. Thanks!

[n3rd]

For me it's sort of a tough decision. My first inclination would be to say Barry Bonds simply because he's suspected of using steroids to help him break the game's most hallowed and saught after record, and perhaps the most saught after record in all of sports. Really though, I think if both Roger Clemens and Barry Bonds were up for the Hall of Fame and the voting was today, they'd both get in, there hasn't been enough concrete evidence (we shall see in few weeks and months if there is any solid evidence) to really give me a reason not to vote for either of these gentleman. Sure, we have plenty of pictures for Bonds showing him as a skinny outfielder at Arizona State and with the Pirates but, one cannot go on pictures alone. But right now, I think Clemens would have the better chance at drawing more votes, if not simply because he doesn't have a bad relationship with the media etc, etc, like Barry has/had during his career. I still think they're both in as of right now.

[OleMissCub]

Maybe Sammy Sosa, because everything dealing with his potential steroid use is purely circumstantial. Not so with the others.

[n3rd]

Maybe Sammy Sosa, because everything dealing with his potential steroid use is purely circumstantial. Not so with the others.

I forgot all about Slammin' Sammy....seems like he remembers English pretty well now-a-days, I guess he just forgot during the congressional hearings...strange.:)

[digglahhh]

Define "suspected steroid user."

Suspected by whom?

Pending further clarification, I'm going with Ivan Rodriguez.

[MadHatter]

Barry Bonds
Roger Clemens
Miguel Tejada
Mark McGwire

In that order, perhaps.

[Rotoprofessor]

I'd love to see McGwire get in, but people view him as only being successful due to his use of steroids, so he's a long-shot at best at this point.

Both Roger Clemens and Barry Bonds had significant success prior to it is believed they started using steroids, so I can see both of them getting in because of it. I think Bonds is the more likely at this point, but it's awfully close and they both can easily get in.

Guys like Sammy Sosa and Rafael Palmeiro I put in the same class as McGwire, so if he's not going to get in, neither will they.

[whoisonit]

In your opinion, which suspected player will have the best shot at making the Hall of Fame. If the writers were to induct one of them, who would it be? And I'm not going by only statistics. Barry Bonds has received a lot more heat for steroids than Roger Clemens, so maybe Clemens has a better shot. Who do think ?

I'll add a poll if enough people are interested in this threat. Thanks!

Are you asking; which suspected player ...ie; Bonds & Clemens -

or

Are you asking about ALL suspected players ?

Please clarify and I will answer accordingly

[5ToolPlayer]

Since we are talking about the Steroid Era, I will assume, for argument's sake, that they all did it.

When discussing who should and who shouldn't be inducted into the Hall of Fame from baseball's Steroid Era, I use the "hypothetical plane crash in 1997" as a litmus test. That is, if the player under consideration for the Hall had the (admittedly macabre) misfortune of dieing in a plane crash at the end of the 1997 season, would the player under consideration have had a good enough career to make it into the Hall anyway?

Using this test, Barry Bonds and Roger Clemens are definite shoe-ins. I have no problem with either of these two players entering the Hall (their objectionable personalities notwithstanding) because both of these players would undoubtedly have made it into the Hall if they never had taken a performance enhancing drug in their lives.

Mark McGwire's case is more problematic. He MIGHT have hit enough home runs to warrant admission to the Hall had he never taken steroids, but it is far from certain if he would have. Since he was such a one dimensional player, his admission into the Hall is entirely dependent on his power numbers. It is close, but I don't think he meets the litmus test. The Hall of Fame is a privilege; the burden of proof is on him, and he, unfortunately, probably does not meet it.

Sorry fellow Cub fans -- Sammy Sosa doesn't come close. He never would have amassed the monumental power numbers had he never taken steroids.

[KCGHOST]

Tough call. Maybe Bonds, I guess.

[fenrir]

probably pudge rodriguez. while i think he did roids there is no concrete evidence to say he did. he also never had any weird spikes in his career, and he's declining normally for an aging player.

[digglahhh]

5ToolPlayer,

First, welcome to BBF.

Second, I think there is one other variable you are ignoring, and that is the degree of stigma attached to potential candidates. You plane crash analogy does not simulate the circumstances of the question asked, it simulates, well... what would have happened if all players died in 1997.

Presumably the voters are not voting under your proposed model, presumably they are not just assuming everyone took. Incidentally, what's the difference between assuming everyone is guilty or assuming everyone is innocent? Either way the numbers go back to face value and Bonds and Clemens have the strongest respective cases. Not to mention that your hypothetical is only really fair to players who debuted in the mid 80's or earlier. A guy like Pedro is a shoo-in, but not by your method...

The best candidate here is a guy who is universally regarded as a HOFer, who has had publicized steroid suspicion, but to whom the allegations either didn't stick, or were just forgotten about. Hence my choice, Pudge. Pudge is also universally liked, as opposed to Clemens and Bonds, another aspect we've seen is relevant in HOF voting.

[stejay]

Bonds simply because of his records. Clemens will get in too. I dont agree, but thats the rules I suppose.

[whoisonit]

Mike Piazza has the best chance because he has always, (with one notable exception), been treated with kid gloves by the press. In my opinion, he will be voted in on the first ballot without any questions raised about his offensive output.

Bonds and Clemens will forever be linked now as the iconic tainted bookends of this statisticly molested era. ie; as one goes, so goes the other. They will not make it.

Whoever supports the grotesquely inflated numbers and physique of Mark McGuire should also push for acknowledgement of his pre-steroid era twin, Dave Kingman, allthough some could argue, justifyably, that is unfair to Kingman.

[digglahhh]

Mike Piazza has the best chance because he has always, (with one notable exception), been treated with kid gloves by the press. In my opinion, he will be voted in on the first ballot without any questions raised about his offensive output.

Bonds and Clemens will forever be linked now as the iconic tainted bookends of this statisticly molested era. ie; as one goes, so goes the other. They will not make it.

Whoever supports the grotesquely inflated numbers and physique of Mark McGuire should also push for acknowledgement of his pre-steroid era twin, Dave Kingman, allthough some could argue, justifyably, that is unfair to Kingman.

1. When was Piazza named as a steroid suspect?

2. Use the search function, find a Kingman/Mac thread, read it. If you still feel compelled to regurgitate your unsubstantiated, patently ridiculous hyperbole, put on your flame suit and post away...

[whoisonit]

1. When was Piazza named as a steroid suspect?


Is there an official body, that officially places players in the ' suspected' category ? I was unaware of this. Please do all a service and provide the name of this sanctioning body.


2. If you still feel compelled to regurgitate your unsubstantiated, patently ridiculous hyperbole, ...


Is that nessasary ? Really, is it ? I am entitled to my opinion. You don't have to be so nasty.

[Doctor X]

I think what ultimately happens to Bonds and Clemens will depend on the resolution of their real and potential legal issues. Real for Bonds; potential for Clemens.

--J.D.

[digglahhh]

Is there an official body, that officially places players in the ' suspected' category ? I was unaware of this. Please do all a service and provide the name of this sanctioning body.

Well, I dunno...

The newspapers, or ESPN, or Canseco, or something.



Is that nessasary ? Really, is it ? I am entitled to my opinion. You don't have to be so nasty.

Who am I deem what is necessary?...

Was it justified? I'd say so. You began the dismissive and condescending tone, after all. The way that you stated the comparison implied that anybody who either thought Mac would have been a natural HOFer, or was at least naturally superior ballplayer to Kingman was basically an idiot. The vast majority of the body of BBF, agrees with at least the latter, some with the former. Implicitly, it was you who insulted our collective intelligence.

I responded to your implicit condescending mockery with explicit condescending mockery.

But really I was just encouraging new members to use the search function (right mods?:highfive:).

Anyway, welcome to BBF!

[Professor]

Barry Bonds.

[Brad Harris]

Clemens. More proof against Bonds and Bonds was hated long before the steroid thing broke anyway. Clemens being a pitcher may also help mitigate the cloud of suspicion. After seeing how McGwire's been treated by the BBWAA though, I'm not sure Bonds can command the 75 percent he deserves.

[yanks0714]

Because of what they accomplished long before they were suspected of HGH and steroids Barry Bonds and Roger Clemens should waltz into the HOF....and I'd support them.

BTW, several posters mentioned Sammy Sosa, but has Sammy ever been linked to steroids or HGH??? He wasn't on the Mitchell Report. I can't remember any kind of references to Sammy from anybody other than us online 'observers' or newspapers who speculate. Unlike Bonds, Clemems, McGwire, Palmeiro, and others I've never seen Sosa specifically linked to HGH or steroids.

Now do I think he did them? Yes, I do, like a great many others. His body change from a really skinny guy to the Incredible Hulk leads me to suspect it. But...I've never really seen or heard of anything specific.

[yanks0714]

Is there an official body, that officially places players in the ' suspected' category ? I was unaware of this. Please do all a service and provide the name of this sanctioning body.

I think the problem is that you brought up Mike Piazza's name in a topic that is titiled 'Which suspected steroid user has the best shot at the HOF'. As far as I know I've never heard anyone link Piazza to being a steroid user.

If the title had been, Which player in the steroid era has the best shot at the HOF' your post would have been very legitimate.

[whoisonit]

I think the problem is that you brought up Mike Piazza's name in a topic that is titiled 'Which suspected steroid user has the best shot at the HOF'. As far as I know I've never heard anyone link Piazza to being a steroid user.

If the title had been, Which player in the steroid era has the best shot at the HOF' your post would have been very legitimate.

You are quite mistaken. The post is very much legitimate.

[White Knight]

I'd love to see McGwire get in, but people view him as only being successful due to his use of steroids, so he's a long-shot at best at this point.

Both Roger Clemens and Barry Bonds had significant success prior to it is believed they started using steroids, so I can see both of them getting in because of it. I think Bonds is the more likely at this point, but it's awfully close and they both can easily get in.

Guys like Sammy Sosa and Rafael Palmeiro I put in the same class as McGwire, so if he's not going to get in, neither will they.

You can't keep a player with 600+ HR's out. No way Sosa doesn't make it. Besides, he's never been accused of doing any PED's.

[White Knight]

[QUOTE=5ToolPlayer;1109041Sorry fellow Cub fans -- Sammy Sosa doesn't come close. He never would have amassed the monumental power numbers had he never taken steroids.[/QUOTE]

But there's less proof that he used PED's then the rest mentioned. People only list him as suspect purely based on his numbers, and that's wrong. Even if he did use them, he hit 600 HR's. Canseco used more juice than anyone, yet he doesn't even have 500.

[White Knight]

Is that nessasary ? Really, is it ? I am entitled to my opinion. You don't have to be so nasty.

I won't attack you like the other guy, but I will say that no way Kingman comes close to Mac. Mac had so much more patience than Kong, look at his OBP and compare. Also, Kong's best feature was his ability to hit the HR, and Mac soundly beats him in that too.

[digglahhh]

You can't keep a player with 600+ HR's out. No way Sosa doesn't make it. Besides, he's never been accused of doing any PED's.

He has been accused, by many actually. No credible hard evidence has surfaced to substantiate the accusations though.

[yanks0714]

Originally Posted by yanks0714
I think the problem is that you brought up Mike Piazza's name in a topic that is titiled 'Which suspected steroid user has the best shot at the HOF'. As far as I know I've never heard anyone link Piazza to being a steroid user.

If the title had been, Which player in the steroid era has the best shot at the HOF' your post would have been very legitimate.

You are quite mistaken. The post is very much legitimate.

So you're saying that you have heard/read suspicion that Mike Piazza used HGH or steroids? That was my point. I hadn't heard of Piazza being so accused before.

[White Knight]

He has been accused, by many actually. No credible hard evidence has surfaced to substantiate the accusations though.

He's been accused by fans and writers who suspect he did them based on his numbers and size, but that's it. No one ever said they knew he did steroids, like Canseco or any trainers.

[fenrir]

He's been accused by fans and writers who suspect he did them based on his numbers and size, but that's it. No one ever said they knew he did steroids, like Canseco or any trainers.

so i suppose sosa going from a 30/30 guy to a 66-65 hr guy was natural? his speed dropped, but his power went up drastically. he also had acne. if he was truly clean, why didnt he take the test rick orielly asked him to take>?

[White Knight]

so i suppose sosa going from a 30/30 guy to a 66-65 hr guy was natural? his speed dropped, but his power went up drastically. he also had acne. if he was truly clean, why didnt he take the test rick orielly asked him to take>?

Could be natural to go from a 30ish HR guy to a 60ish HR guy. Could be he started working out a lot (naturally) and building his arm strength. Could also be more dedicated then he was when he was younger. Acne is a farse of an excuse if I ever heard of one. Lots of people have acne, far worse then Sosa. Screw Rick O'Rielly, he owes him nothing. I would not take any drug test nor fingerprint test unless my job was on the line. Anti-government Ron Paulers like me DESPISE the "I've got nothing to hide crowd". BTW, I'm very anti-drug, and I really do have nothing to hide. But I feel I don't owe nobody anything. Drug tests or steroid tests should only be given when there's beyond reasonable doubt.

[digglahhh]

so i suppose sosa going from a 30/30 guy to a 66-65 hr guy was natural? his speed dropped, but his power went up drastically. he also had acne. if he was truly clean, why didnt he take the test rick orielly asked him to take>?

The increase in production is a rather eye popping piece of circumstantial evidence. It is enough to convict him in the court of public opinion, and understandably so. If I had a gun to my head, I'd guess he took illegal supplements of some sort. But, that is not hard evidence, and I made that distinction quite purposely.

Acne? Are you serious? If the numbers are strong circumstantial evidence, acne is very weak circumstantial evidence.

Do you mean Rick Reilly, the ex-Sports Illustrated columnist? The burden of proof is always on the accuser, that's as basic a tenet of a sound judicial system as there is. That's like saying that anybody who opposes the Telecom wiretapping bill has something to hide, and if they wanted to prove that they weren't terrorists, they'd just let the government listen to their phone calls.

And I'm sure that if he took a test and passed, that would end the debate. Nobody would just claim he was using a masking agent or anything... It's a classic case of everything to lose almost nothing to gain.

[fenrir]

white and digglah you make good points about reilly. that really wouldnt have proved anything if he took the test. i mentioned the acne because ive heard acne is a surefire sign of steroid use in an adult male. i mainly think sosa juiced because of his stats. i dont have a problem with him or anything. unlike bonds, clemens, giambi, sheffield, etc, i actually liked sosa back in the day. he seemed like a cool guy too me. however i do think he juiced to turn himself from a power/speed guy into a hulking slugger.