Silver Bullets

[NotAboutEgo]

I just got back from Tigers fantasy camp, and Johnny Grubb was one of my coaches. He was the hitting coach for the Silver Bullets. I asked him why Coors stopped sponsoring the Bullets, and he said it's because they didn't draw as many fans as they projected... even though they drew decent crowds. He said they also wanted to get back into sponsoring racing.

He said that it makes more sense to sponsor and grow a women's pro league rather than sponsoring a sole women's team to play men's teams. I agree with him.

[bluezebra]

I just got back from Tigers fantasy camp, and Johnny Grubb was one of my coaches. He was the hitting coach for the Silver Bullets. I asked him why Coors stopped sponsoring the Bullets, and he said it's because they didn't draw as many fans as they projected... even though they drew decent crowds. He said they also wanted to get back into sponsoring racing.

He said that it makes more sense to sponsor and grow a women's pro league rather than sponsoring a sole women's team to play men's teams. I agree with him.

Coors' original intent was to 'feel-out' the situation, and find out if there would be enough support to form a Wommen's League. Alas, it didn't pan out.

Bob

[NotAboutEgo]

Coors' original intent was to 'feel-out' the situation, and find out if there would be enough support to form a Wommen's League. Alas, it didn't pan out.

Bob

So, they were testing the waters. Perhaps it would have worked if they would have tried to develop a women's league instead. Maybe other companies will come along that will be interested in it... hopefully. A guy I know from camp approached me about being a business partner for my women's team to help develop it and give us more opportunities. There are people our there who are interested in helping. I'm very thankful that there's an opportunity for my team to grow and help grow women's baseball.

[bluezebra]

So, they were testing the waters. Perhaps it would have worked if they would have tried to develop a women's league instead. Maybe other companies will come along that will be interested in it... hopefully. A guy I know from camp approached me about being a business partner for my women's team to help develop it and give us more opportunities. There are people our there who are interested in helping. I'm very thankful that there's an opportunity for my team to grow and help grow women's baseball.

I doubt if starting a league would have been a better option. I doubt that there would be enough sponsors without some proof that there was enough interest to form a league. I hope that everyone isn't too discouraged not to continue the effort. The WNBA seems to be thriving. Maybe if MLB provided support for a Women's Baseball league, as the NBA does, something positive can happen.

Bob

[metfan13]

I doubt if starting a league would have been a better option. I doubt that there would be enough sponsors without some proof that there was enough interest to form a league. I hope that everyone isn't too discouraged not to continue the effort. The WNBA seems to be thriving. Maybe if MLB provided support for a Women's Baseball league, as the NBA does, something positive can happen.

Bob

One thing to keep in mind. Unlike the NBA, MLB puts money into multiple levels of minor leagues as well as team sponsorship of Arizona Fall League teams and teams/camps, etc in the Caribbean, Venezuela and elsewhere to develop players for their league.

[bluezebra]

One thing to keep in mind. Unlike the NBA, MLB puts money into multiple levels of minor leagues as well as team sponsorship of Arizona Fall League teams and teams/camps, etc in the Caribbean, Venezuela and elsewhere to develop players for their league.

True. But those are leagues that feed MLB. I'm sure MLB has enough money to offer some support to a Women's League, or at least not fight it. The best bet, now that I think this out, would be TV support. When the American Football League came into being in 1960, to go against the NFL, NBC televised their games. Without that exposure, and money, the league would have evaporated in very little time.

I'm sure that the NCAA softball games get good viewing numbers, as well as the women's pro and Olympic softball games. If a MAJOR network televised Women's Professional Baseball League games, the league could prosper. Remember, women have a LOT of buying power, and would support the advertisers.

Bob

[metfan13]

True. But those are leagues that feed MLB. I'm sure MLB has enough money to offer some support to a Women's League, or at least not fight it. The best bet, now that I think this out, would be TV support. When the American Football League came into being in 1960, to go against the NFL, NBC televised their games. Without that exposure, and money, the league would have evaporated in very little time.

I'm sure that the NCAA softball games get good viewing numbers, as well as the women's pro and Olympic softball games. If a MAJOR network televised Women's Professional Baseball League games, the league could prosper. Remember, women have a LOT of buying power, and would support the advertisers.

Bob


I doubt those NCAA games get good ratings. It's just something to fill air time in the summer.

MLB is spending a lot, on developing players for their league. The NBA doesn't do that so they have money to but into the WNBA. I'm not sure why MLB should be expected to put money into another league. Let those interested in it support it.

[captlid]

I doubt the mlb would support a wmlb especially in places where there are already mlb teams or minor league affiliates located. :(

Competition you know!

The player development infrastructure is not even in existence for girls and women to play baseball.
So trying to start a professional league right now is probably not the right time to do so.

The infrastructure for girls fastpitch is very developed in california and alot of the warm weather states. Also the high schools and colleges offer fastpitch as a varsity sport. Not to mention the div 1 college level play and the fastpitch national team in the olympics winning gold. :) People know who Jennie Finch or Cat Osterman is, not many know who Ila Borders is or Julie Croteau.

When girls baseball starts being offered as a mainstream varsity sport then start talking about opening up a wmlb. THEN there will be a player pool that already has a passion for the game and some of them might have the desire to play professionally.

When women's baseball starts being accepted as a mainstream sport then there will be some type of niche market [loyal fanbase] for it. Currently its not. I get that reaction all the time, when inquiring about practice facilities and filing for field permits. "You mean softball right?" "No, baseball for women."

Currently the state of women's baseball in the USA is:
1. Alot of small amatuer leagues run by a few dedicated people in disparate locations all over the USA. If those people dont run it, the league ceases to exist.
2. One league on the east coast that has been around for 30 years but doesn't even use regular obr playing rules or field dimensions.
3. A national team that no one knows about! That plays against japan, canada, taiwan, australia every 2 years. And a few other countries join in when funds permit them.
4. There are also regional tournaments held through out the year that feature about 4-8 teams lasting through a three day holiday weekend. The Roy Hobbs Women's division one in the fall is the largest one with two divisions and four days of nonstop baseball.
5. Girls leagues: none that I know of except the one in rhode island.

So once a girl gets past t-ball age, she will probably encouraged to play softball. If she insists on playing baseball she'll be playing little league or travel with the boys until the age of 12. If by then she's not encouraged onto fastpitch might play babe ruth or if she's good enough american legion/travel later on.

So pretty much once a girl is 13 in all probability she will either play fastpitch because she was encouraged to by society or parents, or doesn't want to play with young teenage guys and gives up baseball as a result.

I am telling you all this from the perspective of a female baseball player. I didn't give a hoot what the guys or society thought of me and played sandlot baseball with guys [rec to starting upperclassmen on the varsity team] up to the age of 18. Was not skilled enough to play varsity in a tough division [no speed, couldnt hit anything over 80mph with wood] so never pushed the issue in my high school which offered fastpitch to the girls.

Still play pickup with guys and participate in a women's league otherwise.

But as of today the level of women's baseball is not higher than semipro due to lack of player development infrastructure and the environment for the girls and women to improve onto a higher level of play.

[NotAboutEgo]

I doubt the mlb would support a wmlb especially in places where there are already mlb teams or minor league affiliates located. :(

Competition you know!

The player development infrastructure is not even in existence for girls and women to play baseball.
So trying to start a professional league right now is probably not the right time to do so.

The infrastructure for girls fastpitch is very developed in california and alot of the warm weather states. Also the high schools and colleges offer fastpitch as a varsity sport. Not to mention the div 1 college level play and the fastpitch national team in the olympics winning gold. :) People know who Jennie Finch or Cat Osterman is, not many know who Ila Borders is or Julie Croteau.

When girls baseball starts being offered as a mainstream varsity sport then start talking about opening up a wmlb. THEN there will be a player pool that already has a passion for the game and some of them might have the desire to play professionally.

When women's baseball starts being accepted as a mainstream sport then there will be some type of niche market [loyal fanbase] for it. Currently its not. I get that reaction all the time, when inquiring about practice facilities and filing for field permits. "You mean softball right?" "No, baseball for women."

Currently the state of women's baseball in the USA is:
1. Alot of small amatuer leagues run by a few dedicated people in disparate locations all over the USA. If those people dont run it, the league ceases to exist.
2. One league on the east coast that has been around for 30 years but doesn't even use regular obr playing rules or field dimensions.
3. A national team that no one knows about! That plays against japan, canada, taiwan, australia every 2 years. And a few other countries join in when funds permit them.
4. There are also regional tournaments held through out the year that feature about 4-8 teams lasting through a three day holiday weekend. The Roy Hobbs Women's division one in the fall is the largest one with two divisions and four days of nonstop baseball.
5. Girls leagues: none that I know of except the one in rhode island.

So once a girl gets past t-ball age, she will probably encouraged to play softball. If she insists on playing baseball she'll be playing little league or travel with the boys until the age of 12. If by then she's not encouraged onto fastpitch might play babe ruth or if she's good enough american legion/travel later on.

So pretty much once a girl is 13 in all probability she will either play fastpitch because she was encouraged to by society or parents, or doesn't want to play with young teenage guys and gives up baseball as a result.

I am telling you all this from the perspective of a female baseball player. I didn't give a hoot what the guys or society thought of me and played sandlot baseball with guys [rec to starting upperclassmen on the varsity team] up to the age of 18. Was not skilled enough to play varsity in a tough division [no speed, couldnt hit anything over 80mph with wood] so never pushed the issue in my high school which offered fastpitch to the girls.

Still play pickup with guys and participate in a women's league otherwise.

But as of today the level of women's baseball is not higher than semipro due to lack of player development infrastructure and the environment for the girls and women to improve onto a higher level of play.

The league you referred to on the East Coast that's been around for over 30 years is a girls' league... not a women's league. They added a women's only about 3 years ago.

The Chicago Pioneers has 2 girls' teams (different ages) and they plan to develop more teams.

The WBL organizes girls' teams to play in youth baseball competitions. I think there is a girls' league starting in the Bay area as well.

Girls' youth leagues are still in their infancy.

You are right about where women's baseball is. We're still fighting the status quo and will until it's gone. There are too many of us who love baseball and who won't stop playing it... regardless of what people say about it.

[captlid]

Do you happen to know what has been the longest running women's league in the USA, from the early 90's and on?

definition of longest running: league that has had at least 4 teams each season of women ages 14 and up.

Thanks,

I know Australia has a very good setup for girls and women countrywide from reading some of the posts here. Japan and Canada are the other two that come to mind. Wish we had that here! :)

[NotAboutEgo]

Do you happen to know what has been the longest running women's league in the USA, from the early 90's and on?

definition of longest running: league that has had at least 4 teams each season of women ages 14 and up.

Thanks,

I know Australia has a very good setup for girls and women countrywide from reading some of the posts here. Japan and Canada are the other two that come to mind. Wish we had that here! :)

I don't know for sure about what is the oldest modern women's baseball league that still exists, but my guess is that it's the EWBC... Eastern Women's Baseball Conference in the D.C. area. If it's not that one, it would be another one on the East Coast. The Great Lakes league has been around since the 90's, but sometimes there are just 3 teams in the league.

Yes, Australia, Japan, and Canada kick our butts in terms of girls' and women's baseball. There still are too many stereotypes and too much gender discrimination here.

[bluezebra]

I doubt those NCAA games get good ratings. It's just something to fill air time in the summer.

MLB is spending a lot, on developing players for their league. The NBA doesn't do that so they have money to but into the WNBA. I'm not sure why MLB should be expected to put money into another league. Let those interested in it support it.

TV doesn't just "fill air time in the summer". If a program doesn't draw viewers, the sponsors don't support it. The bottom line is M-O-N-E-Y.

Bob

[metfan13]

TV doesn't just "fill air time in the summer". If a program doesn't draw viewers, the sponsors don't support it. The bottom line is M-O-N-E-Y.

Bob

I'm sure lumberjack contests, bowling and other stuff they've put on over the years really had good ratings. Some things are there to fill space.

[NotAboutEgo]

I'm sure lumberjack contests, bowling and other stuff they've put on over the years really had good ratings. Some things are there to fill space.

I'm not sure that companies wold spend thousands and millions a year on TV advertising and programming just to fill space. I'm sure they can find better things to spend their money on. They are probably trying to create a market for their products, and sometimes it doesn't work.

[NotAboutEgo]

I doubt if starting a league would have been a better option. I doubt that there would be enough sponsors without some proof that there was enough interest to form a league. I hope that everyone isn't too discouraged not to continue the effort. The WNBA seems to be thriving. Maybe if MLB provided support for a Women's Baseball league, as the NBA does, something positive can happen.

Bob

What comes first... the chicken or the egg? Most *new* products don't have demand until they are on the market for a while and until the masses decide they like the products. I know from experience that there's definitely enough interest on the part of female baseball players and women's baseball organizers/supporters to form a pro league. As long as a solid product is put on the field and enough of and the right marketing takes place, there could be enough interest. The biggest things standing in the way at the present are the insistent stereotypes and gender discrimination that keep girls' and women's baseball from developing at all levels.

I, too, hope people don't get too discouraged to stop the fight. I don't think they will.

[NotAboutEgo]

I think athletic companies and others are stupid from not jumping on the marketing bandwagon for women's baseball and other sports. Then again, if they are run by male chauvinists and women who don't have a clue, then I can see why it hasn't happened.

[metfan13]

Surely there must be some companies run by women who you can hit up for the amount of money needed to start up and market women's baseball.

After all why depend on men since you just say over and over how they're chauvinists who let their pride get in the way of all this money to be made.

[NotAboutEgo]

Surely there must be some companies run by women who you can hit up for the amount of money needed to start up and market women's baseball.

After all why depend on men since you just say over and over how they're chauvinists who let their pride get in the way of all this money to be made.

I didn't say ALL men are chauvinists (thankfully). I said IF the companies are run by male chauvinists AND women who don't have a clue... then I can see why they haven't capitalized on it.

Learn to comprehend what you read rather than being defensive.

[NotAboutEgo]

Not all men in this world are chauvinists, but there are enough around who still stand in the way of progress. AND, there are women who don't believe that women should have equal rights, so they are just as bad. But, historically, it's been men who've been the most controlling and chauvinistic in having things the way they want them. There are oodles and oodles of documentation on this... plus, a lot of us experience it everyday.

[metfan13]

Where did I say that you called ALL men chauvinists? Practice what you preach.

And where was I being defensive? I was offering a suggestion.

You're the one who peppers these threads with insults to men in general.

[NotAboutEgo]

Where did I say that you called ALL men chauvinists? Practice what you preach.

And where was I being defensive? I was offering a suggestion.

You're the one who peppers these threads with insults to men in general.

"After all why depend on men since you just say over and over how they're chauvinists who let their pride get in the way of all this money to be made."

You said men... not some men... suggesting men as a whole/all men. That whole last statement is defensive.

I'm not insulting men. I'm stating the obvious. As I said, not all men are chauvinists, but as a group, men are the ones who've kept women down for centuries, and they continue to do so. It's a proven and historical fact. I'm not insulting anyone by stating facts. I'm not calling men names for no reason or making up lies about them. When referring to "men", I'm referring to the group as a whole.

It's no different than if you or someone else said that women like to shop more than men do. Perhaps women as a whole do like to shop more than men do (and maybe there's data to show whether it's true or not), but it doesn't mean that every woman likes to shop. The reason why I state that as a whole, men have kept women down throughout history, is because it has affected women's baseball history and continues to affect it. It's relevant to the discussions going on.

Your response is emotional. It's like you're trying to take a stab at me, because you let what I say upset you.

[metfan13]

"After all why depend on men since you just say over and over how they're chauvinists who let their pride get in the way of all this money to be made."

You said men... not some men... suggesting men as a whole/all men. That whole last statement is defensive.

I'm not insulting men. I'm stating the obvious. As I said, not all men are chauvinists, but as a group, men are the ones who've kept women down for centuries, and they continue to do so. It's a proven and historical fact. I'm not insulting anyone by stating facts. I'm not calling men names for no reason or making up lies about them. When referring to "men", I'm referring to the group as a whole.

It's no different than if you or someone else said that women like to shop more than men do. Perhaps women as a whole do like to shop more than men do (and maybe there's data to show whether it's true or not), but it doesn't mean that every woman likes to shop. The reason why I state that as a whole, men have kept women down throughout history, is because it has affected women's baseball history and continues to affect it. It's relevant to the discussions going on.

Your response is emotional. It's like you're trying to take a stab at me, because you let what I say upset you.

I think you're the one getting emotional. But far be it from me to say ALL women get emotional when having a discussion.

I said "men" not "ALL men", you're the one suggesting I meant all.

There's more than one thread here to use examples of how you read way too much into a person's comment so as to set up your reply.

I was suggesting, since you said that men are chauvinist, that you find female business people to finance this league.

[NotAboutEgo]

I think you're the one getting emotional. But far be it from me to say ALL women get emotional when having a discussion.

I said "men" not "ALL men", you're the one suggesting I meant all.

There's more than one thread here to use examples of how you read way too much into a person's comment so as to set up your reply.

I was suggesting, since you said that men are chauvinist, that you find female business people to finance this league.

I NEVER said MEN are chauvinists. I said there ARE men who are chauvinists. Furthermore, I said that IF there are MEN who are chauvinists (hypothetical scenario where there MAY be male chauvinists in charge of companies and women who are not for the equality of women in charge of companies) AND WOMEN who have no clue running companies, I can see why they (the ones who are run by such people) haven't sponsored women's baseball.

You used the term men... as a whole. I never said that companies are run by men who are chauvinists.

You are the one who doesn't understand what you read. I'm being objective here.

[metfan13]

I NEVER said MEN are chauvinists. I said there ARE men who are chauvinists. Furthermore, I said that IF there are MEN who are chauvinists (hypothetical scenario where there MAY be male chauvinists in charge of companies and women who are not for the equality of women in charge of companies) AND WOMEN who have no clue running companies, I can see why they (the ones who are run by such people) haven't sponsored women's baseball.

You used the term men... as a whole. I never said that companies are run by men who are chauvinists.

You are the one who doesn't understand what you read. I'm being objective here.

You cna teist it anyway you like, but the post where you said companies are stupid for not getting on board implies that the were led by chauvinist males. Since we're going around in circles again, there's no sense continuing. I'd just continue trying to explain what I read while you'll insult me claiiming that I have trouble reading.

[Erad67]

Yes, Australia, Japan, and Canada kick our butts in terms of girls' and women's baseball.

I live in Japan, granted not near a city. I have never seen women's baseball here. However, ALL students (male and female) in my area have to play on a school sports club (team) at least through junior high. While many might agree that is still a sexist nation, nobody says girls should not play sports just because they are girls. Many of the girls, especially the volleyball players, go all out and play real hard.

I was really hoping the Silver Bullets would be able to place some players with minor league teams or perhaps become a rookie league team or something.

[NotAboutEgo]

I live in Japan, granted not near a city. I have never seen women's baseball here. However, ALL students (male and female) in my area have to play on a school sports club (team) at least through junior high. While many might agree that is still a sexist nation, nobody says girls should not play sports just because they are girls. Many of the girls, especially the volleyball players, go all out and play real hard.

I was really hoping the Silver Bullets would be able to place some players with minor league teams or perhaps become a rookie league team or something.

I know there are women's teams in Japan, but I don't know how many or where they are. I know that when there are women's baseball competitions there (international and regional), the media covers them (TV, newspapers, etc.). That, alone, is more than what the U.S. does. And, the fact that girls aren't told they can't play a certain sport... that's light years ahead of the U.S.

Even though women started playing organized hardball in 1866 (I found a reference to women playing in 1830... will have to see if I can find it again), we're still fighting the status quo and sexism. Girls are still fighting to play youth baseball, girls are still fighting to even try out for their high school teams, and women still fight in different ways to play adult baseball.

I find that to be HUGELY pathetic, given that we started playing organized baseball about 178 years ago. What does that say about our society... the human race? Is it unable to advance and grow in certain ways? Apparently, it is, because history tells us that. And to think women have it WAY worse in many other countries. It's time for an all-around revolution.

The U.S. is still one of the most sexist nations on the planet.

[NotAboutEgo]

I live in Japan, granted not near a city. I have never seen women's baseball here. However, ALL students (male and female) in my area have to play on a school sports club (team) at least through junior high. While many might agree that is still a sexist nation, nobody says girls should not play sports just because they are girls. Many of the girls, especially the volleyball players, go all out and play real hard.

I was really hoping the Silver Bullets would be able to place some players with minor league teams or perhaps become a rookie league team or something.

I know of an independent league team that's going to be placing at least one woman, and perhaps more than one, on its roster. I'll give details when I've been given the green light to.

[Iron Jaw]

I doubt those NCAA games get good ratings. It's just something to fill air time in the summer.

MLB is spending a lot, on developing players for their league. The NBA doesn't do that so they have money to but into the WNBA. I'm not sure why MLB should be expected to put money into another league. Let those interested in it support it.

MLB started from scratch in many different forms, leagues and names. And over the years, was able to market itself and become the national pastime. The NFL did likewise, as did the NBA and NHL.

If the women professional players desire a league, why should an established league have to foot the bill unless they really want to? Major League Baseball, unlike the NFL and NBA, pays for more players than any professional sport because of their extensive minor league system (professional hockey is the other major sport that maintains a minor league system). The NFL and NBA use the colleges for their minor leagues, though a move to a farm system might not be a bad idea considering that some kids absolutely do not belong in college.:shhh:

A woman's league would need to get a few people with money and power together, set up the logistics, purchase the players, radio time, TV time if possible, and get going. In the beginning, the rate of pay per player will be even less than the independent minor league teams, but until the ability to market and turn a profit is there, that's the way it is. To prove to be a viable league, they have to market a product that sells. Good ol' American capitalism.:cap:

The new league would have many changes, new league names, new owners, new strategists, rival leagues (hopefully), some successes and many, many failures along the way. But that's what every new league in any sport faces/has faced.

[NotAboutEgo]

MLB started from scratch in many different forms, leagues and names. And over the years, was able to market itself and become the national pastime. The NFL did likewise, as did the NBA and NHL.

If the women professional players desire a league, why should an established league have to foot the bill unless they really want to? Major League Baseball, unlike the NFL and NBA, pays for more players than any professional sport because of their extensive minor league system (professional hockey is the other major sport that maintains a minor league system). The NFL and NBA use the colleges for their minor leagues, though a move to a farm system might not be a bad idea considering that some kids absolutely do not belong in college.:shhh:

A woman's league would need to get a few people with money and power together, set up the logistics, purchase the players, radio time, TV time if possible, and get going. In the beginning, the rate of pay per player will be even less than the independent minor league teams, but until the ability to market and turn a profit is there, that's the way it is. To prove to be a viable league, they have to market a product that sells. Good ol' American capitalism.:cap:

The new league would have many changes, new league names, new owners, new strategists, rival leagues (hopefully), some successes and many, many failures along the way. But that's what every new league in any sport faces/has faced.

I agree with all your comments. I don't think an established league has any obligation to foot the bill for a new league. At the same time, I don't think there should be a ban on women playing in MLB or in the MLB-affiliated minors. If a woman is good enough to make the cut into the minors, then she should be allowed to, and she should be allowed to advance to whatever level she's able to advance to... based on her skills, talent, and abilities.

You're right about how a women's pro league would have to go about establishing itself. It's no different than any other league/sport. MLB wasn't as popular as it is now before it was broadcast on TV.

Unrelated to your comments, no person should have to fight to play a sport in any community program or in any type of educational program. So, girls and their families should not have to hire lawyers to take schools and youth programs to court to show them that not allowing girls to play in their programs is illegal. There's a 16-year old on my women's team who recently took her school to court and won her case, because they weren't even going to allow her to try out for the school's baseball team.

[Iron Jaw]

Unrelated to your comments, no person should have to fight to play a sport in any community program or in any type of educational program. So, girls and their families should not have to hire lawyers to take schools and youth programs to court to show them that not allowing girls to play in their programs is illegal. There's a 16-year old on my women's team who recently took her school to court and won her case, because they weren't even going to allow her to try out for the school's baseball team.

Of course, that's what Title IX was all about. But in regards to the last part, the overwhelming majority of female athletes cannot make a boy's team, which is why female-only sports were created. By the same token, should a boy, who is athletic but perhaps not big enough or so to make the football team, be allowed to come out for the girls' volleyball team (since volleyball for men is extremely rare at the H.S. and college level)? I remember discussing that with a girlfriend I had in college many years ago (and got an earful:hp). I was a two-sport athlete in college (football and wrestling) and she was also two-sport (basketball and volleyball). She said that if one were allowed, then all would have to be, and a sport that was designated for women only would be dominated by males as a result of coaches who had the "win at any cost" attitude. Of course, my thoughts were that if there were "women only" sports, why couldn't there be "men only" sports? Naturally, her argument was that sports like football, baseball and wrestling were already dominated by men and there was no threat of a "takeover," as there would be if men were allowed to play in the women's sports.

I never convinced her of my side of things, needless to say.:noidea

[RightEGirl]

Hi Iron Jaw and NAE!

NAE, I'd LOVE to hear more about the Indy placements! Maybe there's a chance for me yet!? *smile* E-mail me if there's anything you can tell me (in confidence) of course. Also...are you playing in Baltimore? If so, with whom?

Iron Jaw, welcome and great to have a new voice here. Thanks for your comments. I actually just spent 45 minutes on a very long and thoughtful response to the gender equity question, but the site logged me out and when I logged back in I lost the post! AAaaarghhhh! In short, though, the thesis, without all the frills, was that you made me think about the gender equity question in a new way... thank you. I don't know much about the volleyball issue, but if we just limit the discussion to pro baseball (men) and pro softball (women) here in the US, and consider the two as different sports, then I think if the ban is lifted on the MLB then men should be allowed to play in the NPF... for much the same reasons...traditional and historical exclusion from the development infrastructure. Women (in general) may be at a strength and speed disadvantage in the MLB, but men would be at a skill disadvantage in the NPF. So, fair is fair. I can't speak intelligently on other sports, but these two I know pretty well.

Now... I posted the following in another thread, so my apologies to those who already read it, but I thought it didn't get much exposure previously and thought it might be apropos to the current discussion here (even if it has nothing to do with the Silver Bullets directly.

Here it is:

[I]What an interesting thread, imbued with great passion throughout. I think we should be grateful for such passionate discussion on such an important topic. I have been following this thread for several months, and although I don't often have enough time to post in here (or in Baseball Fever, in general), I have been thinking in great depth about how a true WMLB league could be started, and I have a few ideas. Not being a MLB insider, however, some of my ideas or assumptions may be a bit naive or unworkable, but perhaps we can use this post as a jumping off point for further discussion and/or development?

First, a little background. As has been stated in this thread already, really to make a league work, you obviously need money, and the two logical sources seem to be: 1) From some cooperative agreement with MLB and/or 2) from advertising revenue and licensing agreements generated via television coverage. Now for the purposes of my post, let's assume that MLB would consider a cooperative effort, but will pony up no actual money (I'll get to this later). So, for the sake of discussion, let's assume that we need advertising revenue derived primarily from television coverage. Okay, allow me to digress for a moment: I asked my roommate, a former college Fastpitch player, an Atlanta Braves fan, and a viewer of both NCAA Softball games and MLB games if she would watch a WMLB game if it were televised. Her answer? Not if it conflicted with a televised Fastpitch Softball game. Now that got me to thinking about avoiding competition and creating cooperation. It also led me to wonder why Arena Football is reasonably popular on TV. The answer? I think it's clear that it provides an outlet in the "off-season" of the NFL for football "junkies." It's also interesting, because it's a little different game than regular NFL ball. Okay, sorry this is long, but follow with me:
What if instead of competing for television space against MLB, we become the OFFSEASON alternative??? I know, I live in a snowy place too, but here are my ideas:
1) We develop the league in the Southern tier states where it's warm enough to play baseball in the winter...California, Arizona, Florida, etc. At least initially until the league could grow into spring/summer/fall league and hold its own (if possible). This doesn't mean that only "Southern" players could make the team, but just that you would be based in the South during the season. Another advantage to this is the wealth of talent both in baseball and in fastpitch softball players (who are converting to baseball) to draw upon in California, Arizona, and Florida. Increasingly Texas is coming to the forefront as well. Hey, it may not always be 70 or 80 degrees, but if we want this to work, we may have to play in 55 or 65 degress...or maybe less.
2) We make a cooperative agreement with MLB to use their "Spring Training" ball parks and facilites...they donate the use and upkeep for advertising. Most of the parks are nice and seat enough fans for a good start in the league, without paying for a huge venue that is disheartening to see all the empty seats.
3) We COOPERATE with (rather than compete against) MLB, by starting our season as the MLB World Series is finishing up (and get promotional commercials, appearances at ball parks etc.), and we end our season about the time of Spring Training with our own World Series that draws on Spring Training crowds. Maybe the MLB teams work out in the morning and we have a game in the afternoon or vice versa. Maybe we can even tie in to existing Cactus League or Instructional League attendance. It would be great if we could get MLB to introduce us at games, etc. Put players in attendance up on the big screen, roll a few clips, etc.
4) I could envision 6 to 8 teams for start-up, all southern cities to begin with. Small enough not to break the bank, but large enough to hold interest and develop a city or regional fan base.
5) Announcers/Commentators might be easier to come by than we'd imagine...if we sell our league as an opportunity for "rookie" broadcasters from ESPN, Fox Sports, NBC, etc. to be a proving or training ground for their up and comers.
6) As I understand it, umpires must also spend a certain amount of time in each level in the Minors to work their way up to the Bigs. Perhaps with an agreement with MLB, our WMLB (or whatever is marketable for a name) would allow them credit for AAA or AA or whatever level they think is appropriate. Naturally, as the league develops, we will have big name commentators and Major League umps, but we have to start somewhere. My grandfather used to say, "You can't steer a canoe that isn't moving." A wise man, I think. Let's see if we can get the canoe moving.
Some other ideas:
A) Have an International Series with teams from Australia. Their summer is our winter, after all, and the Aussies would be in the height of their season when we're at the height of ours (February).
B) Generate development interest by filming a new "League of their Own", Women's Baseball Renaissance film.
C) Associate (if possible) with Major League clubs and affiliates wherever possible... for example, if we used the Twins' facilities in Fort Myers, FL (site of some of the 2007 WWS games), there might be a natural tie-in.
D) Perhaps by starting a league that is in the MLB Off-season, maybe some players, assistant coaches, trainers, etc. might be interested in taking an active role in the WMLB? As community service? Good PR? Or?

Okay...now these are just some of the ideas...of course, the number one problem is payroll for players. I don't think many of us would be so greedy that we wouldn't just take enough of a salary to survive, especially to get everything started. I honestly don't know where the payroll money would come from. It has been a continuing problem in the NPF (National Pro Fastpitch League), but several teams do continue to struggle along on sponsorships, gate receipts, promotions and some website advertising. Ideally, MLB clubs/Minor teams would bankroll the equivalent of a AA salary for 6 or 8 women's teams, recouping investment off future earning, television spots, etc. It's an investment of $$$ with (I think) a decent prospect of good return...as long as we are the "off-season" alternative. I deeply believe we have the opportunity to be far more successful financially than the NPF, though, if we market ourselves in the off-season. I don't know about any of you, but I've been VERY much wanting to see ANYTHING baseball related lately! In other words, I think A LOT of baseball fans would watch WMLB during October to February. Our target audiences would be:
1) Baseball Fans of both genders
2) Softball fans and players
3) Women sports enthusiasts
4) Women in General
5) Non-Football watchers (perhaps)

Okay...I'm out of ideas for now. Thanks for your patience in reading this really long post! I look forward to your thoughtful and constructive replies and discussions.

Best to all,

Tiffany

[NotAboutEgo]

Of course, that's what Title IX was all about.

Yes, but Title IX hasn't fixed all the problems. It hasn't been the "cure" for discrimination in sports against girls and women. Discrimination against girls playing baseball in youth programs and in high school is still running rampant. And, then there's the issue of women being discriminated against from playing in most colleges.

But in regards to the last part, the overwhelming majority of female athletes cannot make a boy's team, which is why female-only sports were created. By the same token, should a boy, who is athletic but perhaps not big enough or so to make the football team, be allowed to come out for the girls' volleyball team (since volleyball for men is extremely rare at the H.S. and college level)? I remember discussing that with a girlfriend I had in college many years ago (and got an earful:hp). I was a two-sport athlete in college (football and wrestling) and she was also two-sport (basketball and volleyball). She said that if one were allowed, then all would have to be, and a sport that was designated for women only would be dominated by males as a result of coaches who had the "win at any cost" attitude. Of course, my thoughts were that if there were "women only" sports, why couldn't there be "men only" sports? Naturally, her argument was that sports like football, baseball and wrestling were already dominated by men and there was no threat of a "takeover," as there would be if men were allowed to play in the women's sports. I never convinced her of my side of things, needless to say.:noidea

There is always going to be the strength and size issue when it comes to coed sports. To me, that would be the only reason that men/boys shouldn't be allowed to play on all-girls'/all-women's teams... only when it becomes an issue of safety. If it's proven that there would be a high risk for girls and women to play with boys and men, then perhaps they shouldn't and vice-versa.

My comment about the MLB ban and MLB-affiliated minor league ban on women being lifted is about any woman, regardless of how many it would be, being allowed to play in those leagues if she's good enough. The comment had nothing to do with numbers of women playing. It's about allowing any women, whether it be a handful or a 100 or whatever, the opportunity to play pro baseball... as long as they're good enough.

The problem of whether to allow boys in all-girls sports and vice-versa would be eliminated if both genders were allowed to play any sport they desire to play... whether it be coed or separate-gender sports. The stereotypes of our society and the status quo are at fault for certain sports being created for each gender, telling each gender that they can only play those sports. It's time to get rid of these stagnant traditions and standards of conforming.

I don't have a problem with a boy trying out for volleyball if there's no boys' volleyball team. I don't think one boy is going to dominate all. In response to your ex-girlfriend's comment about that, I disagree with her. If there were that many boys in a school interested in playing volleyball, then a boys' volleyball program should be created.

I play coed soccer, baseball, and hockey, and there are plenty of women who are good enough to hang with the guys. Sure, the guys may kick a soccer ball harder than most women do, but it doesn't mean they have more skill than women do. I've been playing soccer for only 1.5 years, and I'm able to compete with people who've played since their youth. Of course, I'm still learning the game and am working on enhancing my skills, but I don't have any problems hanging with people who are really good. One team that was in the league was made up of all girls except for a few guys. They ended up kicking everyone's butts, because the players were very skilled and experienced, and they played well as a team.

In sports where no hard contact is allowed, the focus is more on skill, ability, and experience. If size and strength become a big part of the sport, then teams should be divided by gender.

In relation to your comments about women-only sports, the issue arises as a result of our society historically discriminating against and not allowing women to play sports. When a group of people is discriminated against and oppressed in some way, it will eventually start fighting for its rights to do something they enjoy and should be allowed to do. Women have always had to fight for the right and opportunity to play sports... since the beginning of time. There is a ton of historical data and evidence to prove this, and most of us live it at some point in our lives. So, the result of that is the creation of girls'-only and women-only sports. Since women have been fighting to play sports and have been banned in many levels of many sports, men arguing that they should have men-only sports because of the existence of women-only sports doesn't hold up. Girls'-only and women-only sports have been created, in large part, due to the discrimination... because they've historically been banned from playing in many sports arenas. In ancient Greece, women went off to create their own Olympics, since they were banned from competing in the original Olympics. And women are still fighting to compete in certain sports in the Olympics.

And since girls and women are still fighting to play many sports at many levels, these issues will continue. Let's face it... most males are too insecure to handle being beaten by a girl/woman, and that macho attitude is the basis for the discrimination and stereotypes. I think things are changing now, and more males are not so bothered by it, but it still happens too much. I've been a victim of it umpteen times in all the coed sports I play. Roller hockey has been the sport with the most issues for me... for whatever reason.

[NotAboutEgo]

Hi Iron Jaw and NAE!

NAE, I'd LOVE to hear more about the Indy placements! Maybe there's a chance for me yet!? *smile* E-mail me if there's anything you can tell me (in confidence) of course. Also...are you playing in Baltimore? If so, with whom?

Iron Jaw, welcome and great to have a new voice here. Thanks for your comments. I actually just spent 45 minutes on a very long and thoughtful response to the gender equity question, but the site logged me out and when I logged back in I lost the post! AAaaarghhhh! In short, though, the thesis, without all the frills, was that you made me think about the gender equity question in a new way... thank you. I don't know much about the volleyball issue, but if we just limit the discussion to pro baseball (men) and pro softball (women) here in the US, and consider the two as different sports, then I think if the ban is lifted on the MLB then men should be allowed to play in the NPF... for much the same reasons...traditional and historical exclusion from the development infrastructure. Women (in general) may be at a strength and speed disadvantage in the MLB, but men would be at a skill disadvantage in the NPF. So, fair is fair. I can't speak intelligently on other sports, but these two I know pretty well.

Now... I posted the following in another thread, so my apologies to those who already read it, but I thought it didn't get much exposure previously and thought it might be apropos to the current discussion here (even if it has nothing to do with the Silver Bullets directly.

Here it is:

[I]What an interesting thread, imbued with great passion throughout. I think we should be grateful for such passionate discussion on such an important topic. I have been following this thread for several months, and although I don't often have enough time to post in here (or in Baseball Fever, in general), I have been thinking in great depth about how a true WMLB league could be started, and I have a few ideas. Not being a MLB insider, however, some of my ideas or assumptions may be a bit naive or unworkable, but perhaps we can use this post as a jumping off point for further discussion and/or development?

First, a little background. As has been stated in this thread already, really to make a league work, you obviously need money, and the two logical sources seem to be: 1) From some cooperative agreement with MLB and/or 2) from advertising revenue and licensing agreements generated via television coverage. Now for the purposes of my post, let's assume that MLB would consider a cooperative effort, but will pony up no actual money (I'll get to this later). So, for the sake of discussion, let's assume that we need advertising revenue derived primarily from television coverage. Okay, allow me to digress for a moment: I asked my roommate, a former college Fastpitch player, an Atlanta Braves fan, and a viewer of both NCAA Softball games and MLB games if she would watch a WMLB game if it were televised. Her answer? Not if it conflicted with a televised Fastpitch Softball game. Now that got me to thinking about avoiding competition and creating cooperation. It also led me to wonder why Arena Football is reasonably popular on TV. The answer? I think it's clear that it provides an outlet in the "off-season" of the NFL for football "junkies." It's also interesting, because it's a little different game than regular NFL ball. Okay, sorry this is long, but follow with me:
What if instead of competing for television space against MLB, we become the OFFSEASON alternative??? I know, I live in a snowy place too, but here are my ideas:
1) We develop the league in the Southern tier states where it's warm enough to play baseball in the winter...California, Arizona, Florida, etc. At least initially until the league could grow into spring/summer/fall league and hold its own (if possible). This doesn't mean that only "Southern" players could make the team, but just that you would be based in the South during the season. Another advantage to this is the wealth of talent both in baseball and in fastpitch softball players (who are converting to baseball) to draw upon in California, Arizona, and Florida. Increasingly Texas is coming to the forefront as well. Hey, it may not always be 70 or 80 degrees, but if we want this to work, we may have to play in 55 or 65 degress...or maybe less.
2) We make a cooperative agreement with MLB to use their "Spring Training" ball parks and facilites...they donate the use and upkeep for advertising. Most of the parks are nice and seat enough fans for a good start in the league, without paying for a huge venue that is disheartening to see all the empty seats.
3) We COOPERATE with (rather than compete against) MLB, by starting our season as the MLB World Series is finishing up (and get promotional commercials, appearances at ball parks etc.), and we end our season about the time of Spring Training with our own World Series that draws on Spring Training crowds. Maybe the MLB teams work out in the morning and we have a game in the afternoon or vice versa. Maybe we can even tie in to existing Cactus League or Instructional League attendance. It would be great if we could get MLB to introduce us at games, etc. Put players in attendance up on the big screen, roll a few clips, etc.
4) I could envision 6 to 8 teams for start-up, all southern cities to begin with. Small enough not to break the bank, but large enough to hold interest and develop a city or regional fan base.
5) Announcers/Commentators might be easier to come by than we'd imagine...if we sell our league as an opportunity for "rookie" broadcasters from ESPN, Fox Sports, NBC, etc. to be a proving or training ground for their up and comers.
6) As I understand it, umpires must also spend a certain amount of time in each level in the Minors to work their way up to the Bigs. Perhaps with an agreement with MLB, our WMLB (or whatever is marketable for a name) would allow them credit for AAA or AA or whatever level they think is appropriate. Naturally, as the league develops, we will have big name commentators and Major League umps, but we have to start somewhere. My grandfather used to say, "You can't steer a canoe that isn't moving." A wise man, I think. Let's see if we can get the canoe moving.
Some other ideas:
A) Have an International Series with teams from Australia. Their summer is our winter, after all, and the Aussies would be in the height of their season when we're at the height of ours (February).
B) Generate development interest by filming a new "League of their Own", Women's Baseball Renaissance film.
C) Associate (if possible) with Major League clubs and affiliates wherever possible... for example, if we used the Twins' facilities in Fort Myers, FL (site of some of the 2007 WWS games), there might be a natural tie-in.
D) Perhaps by starting a league that is in the MLB Off-season, maybe some players, assistant coaches, trainers, etc. might be interested in taking an active role in the WMLB? As community service? Good PR? Or?

Okay...now these are just some of the ideas...of course, the number one problem is payroll for players. I don't think many of us would be so greedy that we wouldn't just take enough of a salary to survive, especially to get everything started. I honestly don't know where the payroll money would come from. It has been a continuing problem in the NPF (National Pro Fastpitch League), but several teams do continue to struggle along on sponsorships, gate receipts, promotions and some website advertising. Ideally, MLB clubs/Minor teams would bankroll the equivalent of a AA salary for 6 or 8 women's teams, recouping investment off future earning, television spots, etc. It's an investment of $$$ with (I think) a decent prospect of good return...as long as we are the "off-season" alternative. I deeply believe we have the opportunity to be far more successful financially than the NPF, though, if we market ourselves in the off-season. I don't know about any of you, but I've been VERY much wanting to see ANYTHING baseball related lately! In other words, I think A LOT of baseball fans would watch WMLB during October to February. Our target audiences would be:
1) Baseball Fans of both genders
2) Softball fans and players
3) Women sports enthusiasts
4) Women in General
5) Non-Football watchers (perhaps)

Okay...I'm out of ideas for now. Thanks for your patience in reading this really long post! I look forward to your thoughtful and constructive replies and discussions.

Best to all,

Tiffany

Hey Tiff,

Love your ideas. I'm game for playing pro ball, even if it means not making much at first. It's all about the dream and fulfilling it and doing what we love. I can find things in the off season to do to help make a living! Where there's a will, there's a way.

[JeepingBaseball]

Love the ideas too!

I think we need a marketing genius who knows how to a do a nationwide promotion to please everyone and curious enough to attract new people. I have a few ideas in mind, but but the cost of advertising alone would offset any change left over for payroll for the players.

Personally, as long as travel, hotel, food, ect were paid for, I wouldn't ask for much. Would jump at it in a heartbeat.

It's not that far fetched an idea, it's been done before.

[RightEGirl]

Thanks for the support NAE and JB!

Okay...now...I think we should brainstorm a list of wealthy/powerful women and interested men who might be potential owners and support a Renaissance in Women's Baseball. The first one that comes to mind would be Oprah Winfrey. I think she could do much for us in publicity even if she doesn't invest...just having a panel of us on her show would be a HUGE step to generating interest.

Wrigley chewing gum supported the original "League of their Own" -- why not see if they want to capitalize on that history? In my mind, they could use a new angle for their products.

Other thoughts?

Best,

Tiff

[JeepingBaseball]

Oprah? She would scream bloody murder at us

[LadyMarlin71]

Oprah? She would scream bloody murder at us

Why do you say that?

[JeepingBaseball]

It's not her style at all... 1st, there's not enough African Americans around in women's baseball. 2nd, she will see no personal gain. 3rd, she only jumps on board to out show someone else's ideas.

[RightEGirl]

I personally am not ready to give up on the idea of Oprah. But... if not Oprah, then who else? Let's brainstorm positives rather than negatives. There are enough negatives against us already...let's shoot for the stars, girls! (And guys who support our idea here!).

Best,

Tiff

[JeepingBaseball]

I'm thinking of people who are really big fans of baseball, who happen to have done work in relations to baseball in their movie/tv/public profile careers such as Penny Marshall, Garry Marshall, Ben Affleck, Kevin James, Billy Crystal, and so on.. (alot of these people have their own production company or other avenues besides acting or directing)

Then you have major cooperations that tend to lean towards women more such as Bank of America (currently a MLB sponsor - but support women owned businesses), and look at the sponsors MLB has.... just find the other half of it. Here's a list of current MLB sponsors with my suggestion for a women's league in parentheses:

• Anheuser-Busch (Coors, but this been done before, so lets try Miller Light)
• Bank of America (there's always WaMu)
• DHL (FedEx or UPS would work here... both are better known for their nascar sponsorship and FedEx once tried to court a Danica Patrick)
• FIA Card Service, NA (I have no idea what this is.... uh, how about Hallmark)
• Frito Lay (Pringles)
• Gatorade (i want to say powerade, but lets go with Vitamin Water)
• Gillette (beat the razor, try Veet)
• General Motors - Chevrolet - (Chrysler-Jeep)
• InterContinental Hotels Group - Holiday Inn (Marriott, the Hyatt, or the Radison... pick any)
• KPMG (this is some firm that handles mergers and crap)
• MasterCard International (American Express or Discover)
• Nestlé USA - Baby Ruth (Hershey Kisses)
• Nike - (Under Armour, Vans, Reebok, Keds)
• Pepsi-Cola - (Red Bull (who sponsored us before for the 24hr game) or Amp)
• Sharp - (Sony)
• State Farm (Progressive)
• Taco Bell (Dairy Queen)
• XM Satellite Radio (Sirrus)

And lets not forget the one brand that doesn't play a gender role:

Wheaties

[JeepingBaseball]

Then there's gender specfic companies such as Tampax, Playtex, Always, OB....ect

Then there are department stores such as Macy's Kohls, Belk, ect

And how about wine?

Magazines such a Cosmo, Vanity Fair, Good Housekeeping... ect

[LadyMarlin71]

Monster.com is a MLB sponsor, I think.

What about NikeWomen.com?

As far as Oprah, I don't think not having enough African-Americans would be a deterrent. If anything, having her aboard may bring more African-American women to the game. Right now, I only know of four black (African-American is too long to keep typing over and over) players, myself included and two are on the USA National team.

I say let's give it a shot. All she can say is yes or no, right?

[JeepingBaseball]

Anything is worth a shot... I just don't personally see any response coming from her.

But whoever rings Big O up, best of luck and I hope it works!

[metfan13]

Then there's gender specfic companies such as Tampax, Playtex, Always, OB....ect

Then there are department stores such as Macy's Kohls, Belk, ect

And how about wine?

Magazines such a Cosmo, Vanity Fair, Good Housekeeping... ect

For what it's worth Cosmo, Good House, Redbook, and Oprah magazine are all published by the same company (Hearst Magazines), that happens to be run by Cathie Black one of the top businesswomen in the country.

[JeepingBaseball]

There ya go!!

[NotAboutEgo]

What about Madonna? She was in "A League of Their Own", so I'd think she'd believe in women's baseball, and she's not conventional... in the least. Also, she's from Michigan, so maybe she'd want to support it since there's women's baseball in Michigan.

[NotAboutEgo]

Monster.com is a MLB sponsor, I think.

What about NikeWomen.com?

As far as Oprah, I don't think not having enough African-Americans would be a deterrent. If anything, having her aboard may bring more African-American women to the game. Right now, I only know of four black (African-American is too long to keep typing over and over) players, myself included and two are on the USA National team.

I say let's give it a shot. All she can say is yes or no, right?

Actually, my team has 7 African-Americans on it right now, and we've had a few others in the past. That's almost half the roster... counting the players who are actually going to be playing. And one of our coaches is black.

[MSUlaxer27]

Not trying to be negative...I admire your efforts.

Just a thought, how many of these high powered businesswomen or companies invested in pre-existing womens pro franchises? I don't think the WNBA model works for this, as far as I know, only the Sun are owned by an an entity that isn't one already in the NBA (ie. most WNBA franchises are owned by the parent NBA team). How many were invested in the other 2 women's pro basketball leagues or the womens pro soccer league?

Interesting thought, whereas most professional men's leagues grew out of grass roots development (ie. there already were large amounts of accepted college and amateur ranks to draw from to create the next level...and this was even the case for women's hoops, soccer and fastpitch softball). Women's baseball will have to draw a different model (much like women's pro football another sport that is "generally" not considered a "women's" sport).

Pump priming and trickle down so to speak...you have to continue to create the grassroots interest while at the same time creating a "pro" outlet for that interest.

I like the fact that you all have gotten past trying to convince the rest of us of the need for womens baseball and started working on ideas and ways to create your own league.

Best of luck!

[NotAboutEgo]

While we are continuing to build women's baseball on the grassroots level, there still is a lot of gender discrimination and stereotypes to overcome. The founders of the WNBA also had to overcome years of discrimination and fought 10-11 years to make the league happen. That will influence the success of a league/market... since gender-discrimination is an attitude. Attitudes take a long time to change... like saying a sport is a man's sport or a women's sport. Sports are sports... period. It's people's limited perceptions and the attitudes that are the outcomes of those limited perceptions that influence how successful something can and will become.

The MLB and other men's pro sports leagues (white dominated leagues... I should say) never had to fight gender stereotypes and gender discrimination... so, building those leagues and markets for those leagues was rather easy. Having the freedom of playing sports is something that men have claimed a right to since the beginning of time... while women have always had to fight just to be able to play. Women still don't have baseball as high school and collegiate sports... the same as women's football. Gender discrimination and stereotypes are attitudes of domination.

When there's a society that perpetuates gender-biased views and actions, it's much harder to build something that goes against those gender-biased views and actions. We're not only going through the growing pains that most new organizations go through, but we're also fighting the status quo in breaking down those gender-biased views and actions that have limited us for so long.

We continue to push forward in our movement and will someday overcome all the obstacles that still lie in our way. Perhaps the obstacles serve a purpose in making us stronger and making the goal that much sweeter.

[NotAboutEgo]

I was listening to the radio on the way to work today, and they said that in Michigan, women make, on average, $.69 for every $1 that a man makes doing the same jobs with the same qualifications. So, women are still being discriminated against across the board. It will take further legislation to make companies pay women equally for the same jobs and qualifications.

This is a reflection of our society and where its mindset is currently... still holding onto stagnant and biased traditions and standards... the same ones that have been around for centuries upon centuries. And knowing there are countries on the planet that are far worse than than the U.S. simply is mindboggling. I can't imagine how it would be in countries where women are thought of as less than dirt. I wouldn't last for 2 seconds there.

[RightEGirl]

Hey All!

Great ideas! I didn't know about Cathie Black and the magazine connection at Hearst, and I hadn't really considered Madonna.

I also absolutely love all the ideas, JB!!! Really cool to take all the MLB sponsors and create a little competition. The gender-specific marketing is also good. : )

Welcome MSUlaxer, and thanks for the vote of support in our moving forward. I agree entirely -- it's long past time for us to take charge of our own destinies in relation to the formation of the WMLB. I do believe most of us have gotten past the point of complaining about the discrimination issues and are now ready to take a positive, proactive approach. Please don't get me wrong -- I do agree with several aspects of what NAE says often in the forum -- that gender discrimination (especially in sports) is a very real and insidious threat -- BUT (and note the caps), I believe we, as women, all know this reality, and also know that we're not going to change societal attitudes enough in the next few years for MLB to remove a ban and guilt them into devoting money to the formation of a WMLB. I'm just not interested in further he said/she said gender discrimination arguments...it takes away from our focus and takes our eyes OFF the prize! The exact opposite of what we want. Let's spend our energy in more productive ways.

In short, I believe if we want this, then WE need to do it! Having said that, and started an interesting sponsorship discussion, I believe the next step is to talk about networking. We absolutely NEED insiders and folks with connections to the top brass at possible sponsors and for publicity, such as on Oprah. Alright then...who do we know, and how can we contact them? I'm happy to send e-mails, make phone calls, etc., but I need names, e-mail addresses, phone numbers etc. If you don't want to post them, then be sure to PM me or e-mail them. We can also actually TALK on the phone...I don't mind giving my number privately, but plz don't post it.

Okay...let's accept that gender discrimination is still a reality, move on, and do the one thing we can really do that will combat it...start a NEW League of OUR Own!

Best,

Tiff

P.S. a funny, eerie coincidence: As I'm typing this, I'm listening to streaming music and what comes on??? Yep...Centerfield, by John Fogerty!!! I kid you not! What a howl...

[JeepingBaseball]

I, too, am tired of arguing and like to see something done already in regards to women's baseball.

I think a first step would be contact a marketing/legal/agent - firm/company. We need professionals who can be on the job 5 days a week, 9 to 5 to handle all legal regulations, funds, sponsors, and/or players recruiting. It's finding the right one. My suggestion is to research and see who handles all the other major sports leagues (MLB, NBA, WNBA, NHL). Gather that list together and figure out which one is best for us for the long term goal. Meet up, sit in person and discuss the idea and plans and from there see what they got to say on how to go forth (these firms will most likely be in New York or Los Angeles... maybe Chicago)

Once that is establish and the league is on paper and legal to go forth, then you ask for spokespeople to spread the word and build the fan base. It will need to be a much more aggressive approach than the WNBA did. I personally thought it was weak for the New York Liberty, as I didn't even know it happened till the end of their 1st season. That's not gender related, that's just bad marketing.

[Milwaukee T]

There was an idea that was floated about just after the Silver Bullets were formed. It was to bring the team into one of the minor leagues. At the time it would have worked out with the team joining the Midwest League and keeping a team playing in one of the long run cities like Wisconsin Rapids.

At that time there was a lot of squabling even about the idea as it was believed that no men's team would ever want to lose to them and that no major league teams would ever want that stigma associated with thier players.

What if a team was created today? Put the best that could be found and that were willing to walk away from family and life for the summer. I would think that one of the independent leagues would gobble that kind of publicity up. Run the team as a legit team though. Try and keep the franchise alive and see if that would help develope enough interest and enough skill to form a second team. Find another league to put that team in or have the original league with two teams. Do this until there are at least six teams. Then you have a league that may be seen as having more value as these players came through the ranks of the men's minors.

This would be a five yar minimum comitment of everyone involved to bring about an entire league. Then I think you could even start having the women's league supplying players to the indy league teams and have basic teams rather than men or women. That would relieve the stigma that some see in losing to women's team and would also give the players of the future maybe a little more basis to claim being legitamite players rather than a gimmick as some would claim of players of today.

No all you have to do is find money and fields and players and a league.

[NotAboutEgo]

There was an idea that was floated about just after the Silver Bullets were formed. It was to bring the team into one of the minor leagues. At the time it would have worked out with the team joining the Midwest League and keeping a team playing in one of the long run cities like Wisconsin Rapids.

At that time there was a lot of squabling even about the idea as it was believed that no men's team would ever want to lose to them and that no major league teams would ever want that stigma associated with thier players.

What if a team was created today? Put the best that could be found and that were willing to walk away from family and life for the summer. I would think that one of the independent leagues would gobble that kind of publicity up. Run the team as a legit team though. Try and keep the franchise alive and see if that would help develope enough interest and enough skill to form a second team. Find another league to put that team in or have the original league with two teams. Do this until there are at least six teams. Then you have a league that may be seen as having more value as these players came through the ranks of the men's minors.

This would be a five yar minimum comitment of everyone involved to bring about an entire league. Then I think you could even start having the women's league supplying players to the indy league teams and have basic teams rather than men or women. That would relieve the stigma that some see in losing to women's team and would also give the players of the future maybe a little more basis to claim being legitamite players rather than a gimmick as some would claim of players of today.

No all you have to do is find money and fields and players and a league.

I like the idea of focusing on a women's league rather than putting a women's team in an indy league. I think it would do a lot more for women's baseball to create our own league rather than trying to do another "Silver bullets" team. More women would be able to play, women's baseball would develop a lot faster, girls' baseball would develop more at the grass roots/youth level, girls' baseball would come about in high school and college, etc. Putting the focus on a women's team in an indy league would lead to slower progress in women's baseball... IMO.