Roger Bresnahan's most similar: Who deserves induction?

[Cowtipper]

According to Baseball-Reference.com, the following players are statistically similar to Hall of Fame catcher Roger Bresnahan.

Lyn Lary
Chief Zimmer
Kid Elberfeld
Woody English
Jerry Priddy
Billy Rogell
Tom Herr
Bill Doran
Andy High

I have not really heard any Hall of Fame arguments for any of those players.

Courtesy of (mostly) the Baseball-Reference Bullpen, here are some notable achievements for each player:

Lyn Lary:

AL Stolen Bases Leader (1936)
100 RBI Seasons: 1 (1931)
100 Runs Scored Seasons: 3 91931, 1936 & 1937)
Won a World Series with the New York Yankees in 1932 (he did not play in the World Series)

Chief Zimmer:

Four .300+ batting average seasons (1893, 1895, 1897, 1899)

Kid Elberfeld:

Hit by Pitch leader (1903, 1911)
Three .300+ batting average seasons (1901, 1903, 1906)

Woody English:

NL All-Star (1933)
100 Runs Scored Seasons: 3 (1929-1931)
200 Hits Seasons: 2 (1930 & 1931)

Jerry Priddy:

100 Runs Scored Seasons: 1 (1950)
Won a World Series with the New York Yankees in 1941 (he did not play in the World Series)

Billy Rogell:

100 RBI Seasons: 1 (1934)
100 Runs Scored Seasons: 1 (1934)
Won a World Series with the Detroit Tigers in 1935

Tom Herr:

NL All-Star (1985)
100 RBI Seasons: 1 (1985)
Won a World Series with the St. Louis Cardinals in 1982

Bill Doran:

1983 Topps All-Star Rookie Team
Won a World Series with the Cincinnati Reds in 1990 (he did not play in the World Series)

Andy High:

Won a World Series with the St. Louis Cardinals in 1931

None of them really have very impressive resumes. However, are there any that you think deserve induction into the Hall of Fame?

[jjpm74]

Bresnahan is primarily in because he was the archetype for modern catchers. None of those other players had the kind of impact Bresnahan had on the game.

[jalbright]

Bresnahan is primarily in because he was the archetype for modern catchers. None of those other players had the kind of impact Bresnahan had on the game.

I'd like to see you elaborate on this point, please.

[Chickazoola]

Zimmer is the only one I can see a case for given that he was a good hitting 19th century catcher with some longevity. But in 19 years he only played 1280 games so that kills his already remote chances.

[jjpm74]

I'd like to see you elaborate on this point, please.

Besides for being the first to use some of the equipment modern catchers use, he was also one of the most dominant catchers of his era. The position of catcher was not an everyday position in his day, yet despite this, he was one of the leading catchers of his era in win shares. In one of the few years he wasn't a catcher (1903), he led his team in win shares. The only catcher I can think of who posted better numbers than him was Walter Schang and he was a part time catcher at best. Of true dead ball era catchers, Bresnahan was a dominant individual who was either the best or one of the best players for several years on his team at a time when it was highly unusual for catchers to have an impact on their team and had a number of All-star type seasons when accounting for the fact that catchers were not every day players in his day. For these reasons, he's one of the players at the top of my queue of players not already in the BBFHOF and one player who truly did deserve his spot in the HOF.

[jalbright]

What is your source for the notion Bresnahan was the first to use certain equipment? And what equipment? I suspect you're giving him credit for being the major leaguer to use shin guards, when I believe that a Negro League catcher may well have actually been the first to use them. If that's the case, it's nice to know he was smart enough to realize a good thing when he saw it, but that doesn't make him special if that's the case.

[jjpm74]

First major leaguer. Whether or not he was the first person, he was the one who helped popularize their use. Who do you associate with the incandescent light more; Humphry Davy or Thomas Alva Edison? The former was the first. The latter popularized it.

[Cowtipper]

Infielders like Bud Fowler, Sol White and Charlie Grant all stuffed wooden slats into their socks, which amount to what we know as shin guards.

[ElHalo]

Roger Bresnahan was, of course, my favorite catcher of all time. He's probably my third favorite player of all time after Pepper Martin and Dizzy Dean (weird, since I'm an AL guy who really can't stand the National League).

He was, as was stated, the first major leaguer to popularize modern catching equipment, but he was also the first major leaguer to really play catcher. If you look at him from 1905 on, he played the vast majority of his games at C, and didn't really rotate around to other positions... which was an entirely novel concept at the time. All of the previous great catchers, like Buck Ewing and King Kelly, played less than half their career games at C; Bresnahan played more than 70% of his games at C, despite having bounced around (as was the custom) in his earlier years. He really helped define C as a position, rather than as something that somebody on the team had to do.

As to his merits, he was a fine defensive catcher, he by far had more speed than any other catcher ever, and he put up a career 126 OPS+. I'll hand you Mickey Cochrane and Mike Piazza. Find me another post 1900 catcher with a better career OPS+.

Go ahead, I'll wait. Take your time.

[jalbright]

Roger Bresnahan was, of course, my favorite catcher of all time. He's probably my third favorite player of all time after Pepper Martin and Dizzy Dean (weird, since I'm an AL guy who really can't stand the National League).

He was, as was stated, the first major leaguer to popularize modern catching equipment, but he was also the first major leaguer to really play catcher. If you look at him from 1905 on, he played the vast majority of his games at C, and didn't really rotate around to other positions... which was an entirely novel concept at the time. All of the previous great catchers, like Buck Ewing and King Kelly, played less than half their career games at C; Bresnahan played more than 70% of his games at C, despite having bounced around (as was the custom) in his earlier years. He really helped define C as a position, rather than as something that somebody on the team had to do.

As to his merits, he was a fine defensive catcher, he by far had more speed than any other catcher ever, and he put up a career 126 OPS+. I'll hand you Mickey Cochrane and Mike Piazza. Find me another post 1900 catcher with a better career OPS+.

Go ahead, I'll wait. Take your time.

Well, Buck Ewing had a 129 (with 882 more AB), Dickey had a 127 (with 1819 more AB), Bench tied with a 126 (and 3177 more AB), Hartnett also tied at 126 (with 1950 more AB), Berra's a mere point behind but with 2074 more AB, Lombardi is also a mere point behind at 125 but with 1374 more AB, and Campanella is a mere two points behind in the majors (but of course he played in the Negro Leagues). All those catchers are within 2% of the OPS+ number, but have somewhere on the order of a minimum of 20% more AB. I'll take any of them over Bresnahan at the plate.

Bresnahan's in the neighborhood by OPS+, but of the guys in the HOF primarily for catching, he's got the shortest career by a good margin assuming we give some credit for Negro League play. His OPS+ may give him the right street address, but his AB give him a street number on the wrong side of the tracks as far as I'm concerned. For me, he's close, but for a guy who emphasizes career to the extent I do, his short career is a major demerit. I concede he almost overcomes it in my mind, and if he really had invented some key protective gear rather than simply being smart enough to adopt somebody else's idea, it might be enough to push him over the top. However, based on what I know, I see him as one of the very first in line deserving to be on the outside, if not the very first in that class.

[jjpm74]

Bresnahan's in the neighborhood, but of the guys in the HOF primarily for catching, he's got the shortest career by a good margin assuming we give some credit for Negro League play. For me, he's close, but for a guy who emphasizes career to the extent I do, his short career is a major demerit. I concede he almost overcomes it in my mind, and if he really had invented some key protective gear rather than simply being smart enough to adopt somebody else's idea, it might be enough to push him over the top. However, based on what I know, I see him as one of the very first in line deserving to be on the outside, if not the very first in that class.

What is your source that he adopted someone else's ideas? Everything I've ever read on the subject suggests that it is possible that he may have adopted his ideas from a player in the Negro Leagues. I've never seen a source that actually proves that. Bresnahan also played around with catching masks and batting helmets.

Short career or not, all of the guys you mentioned in his company statistically are in the HOF.

[jalbright]

What is your source that he adopted someone else's ideas? Everything I've ever read on the subject suggests that it is possible that he may have adopted his ideas from a player in the Negro Leagues. I've never seen a source that actually proves that. Bresnahan also played around with catching masks and batting helmets.

Short career or not, all of the guys you mentioned in his company statistically are in the HOF.

If I come up with the source, I'll mention it. My gut tells me it was something Bill James wrote, but I can't swear to that. However, you are the one who raised the topic as though he invented them, and I asked for your source, which at this point I take it you do not have.

I really don't think that Bresnahan is truly in the company you mention, because of the massive difference in playing time. Twenty percent or more differences in playing time are huge, whereas the differences in OPS+ are small. No other HOF catcher who did not have significant service time in the Negro Leagues had less than 5169 AB. Bresnahan is thus not within 15% of the service time of any other catcher in the HOF.

As I indicated, he's close for me, but we're now into a territory where it's almost impossible to convince someone else they're "wrong": where one draws the line. It's perfectly reasonable to choose to draw the line just above Bresnahan and say he's not good enough. It's perfectly reasonable to draw the line just below him and say he is good enough. He's a gray area guy because of the short career IMO.

[leecemark]

--Had he played later in history Bresnahan's lack of playing time would put him under my line. What makes him a yes for me is that he is almost certainly the best MLB catcher (I think Santop was beter in the Negro Leagues) to debut between Buck Ewing in the 1880s and Gabby Hartnett in the 1920s. Being the best at your position in a 40 year cheuck of MLB hostory is a pretty compellign arguement for me.

[jalbright]

--Had he played later in history Bresnahan's lack of playing time would put him under my line. What makes him a yes for me is that he is almost certainly the best MLB catcher (I think Santop was beter in the Negro Leagues) to debut between Buck Ewing in the 1880s and Gabby Hartnett in the 1920s. Being the best at your position in a 40 year cheuck of MLB hostory is a pretty compellign arguement for me.

If Santop weren't there, perhaps I'd buy this line of reasoning. But he is! I'm aware of the playing time issues for catchers of his era, and that's a major reason he gets close. He doesn't get full credit because he had large chunks in the outfield. I also seem to emphasize career accomplishments more than most--but that is, of course, my prerogative. There's nothing inherently "wrong" with the approach of either of us--it's a matter of taste, judgment, call it what you will.

[jalbright]

From Bill James, pp. 41-42 of the first edition of Politics of Glory, later sold under the title Whatever Happened to the Hall of Fame?:

Bresnahan was widely credited with having invented shin guards in 1907, even though a Negro League catcher, Chappie Johnson of the Chicago Giants, had begun wearing shin guards in 1902 and Nig Clarke, who was white despite the name, had worn them briefly in the major leagues in 1905. Bresnahan did play an important role in proving that not all white catchers were stupid.

[jjpm74]

If I come up with the source, I'll mention it. My gut tells me it was something Bill James wrote, but I can't swear to that. However, you are the one who raised the topic as though he invented them, and I asked for your source, which at this point I take it you do not have.

I definitely wasn't trying to imply that he invented the equipment. Simply that he helped popularize the usage of the equipment which he did. I can't remember all the sources that credit Bresnahan for popularizing the use of shin guards and masks off the top of my head.


As I indicated, he's close for me, but we're now into a territory where it's almost impossible to convince someone else they're "wrong": where one draws the line. It's perfectly reasonable to choose to draw the line just above Bresnahan and say he's not good enough. It's perfectly reasonable to draw the line just below him and say he is good enough. He's a gray area guy because of the short career IMO.

I agree that he is in a definite gray area. The part I can't agree with is the notion that many consider his election a mistake when he is in such a gray area and so many people clearly do consider him one of the greats of his era. A player like Red Schoendienst or Johnny Evers I can see as a mistake that many people here would agree with, but not Bresnahan.