Your #1 choice for best player not in HOF

[jjpm74]

Reading through the Keltner reports got me thinking, who is the best player currently eligible for Cooperstown through the Veteran's Committee? Of players not currently enshrined in Cooperstown and who are eligible through the Veteran's Committee, who would be your #1 candidate?

[Erik Bedard]

Add Bert Blyleven please.

[Captain Cold Nose]

Add Bert Blyleven please.

Blyleven is not eligible via the Veteran's Committee. Based on this month's results, I don't think he ever will be.

Two names stand out to me, players who got passed over due to when they played, Bill Dahlen and Sherry Magee. By the time the voting began they were out of collective memory long enough for them to get passed over, and they didn't have the champions others had. If the VC continued to do through the mid to late 90's, I don't doubt at least Bad Bill would have gotten in.

[Erik Bedard]

Whoops, didn't read that line.

[Captain Cold Nose]

Whoops, didn't read that line.

You're as human as Joe DiMaggio.

http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=72866

[Freakshow]

Blyleven is not eligible via the Veteran's Committee. Based on this month's results, I don't think he ever will be.

Two names stand out to me, players who got passed over due to when they played, Bill Dahlen and Sherry Magee. By the time the voting began they were out of collective memory long enough for them to get passed over, and they didn't have the champions others had. If the VC continued to do through the mid to late 90's, I don't doubt at least Bad Bill would have gotten in.
Too many omissions for a valid poll on this question. In addition to Dahlen and Magee, you should at least consider Dick Allen, Minnie Minoso, Joe Gordon, Deacon White, Paul Hines, Stan Hack and Harry Stovey.

Also, Quisenberry is still under BBWAA jurisdiction, for two more years.

[Captain Cold Nose]

Too many omissions for a valid poll on this question. In addition to Dahlen and Magee, you should at least consider Dick Allen, Minnie Minoso, Joe Gordon, Deacon White, Paul Hines, Stan Hack and Harry Stovey.

Whaddya say, jjpm? It's your poll, would you like me to add some names for you?

[Mike Hoban]

Reading through the Keltner reports got me thinking, who is the best player currently eligible for Cooperstown through the Veteran's Committee? Of players not currently enshrined in Cooperstown and who are eligible through the Veteran's Committee, who would be your #1 candidate?

Dick Allen is by far the best player who fits these conditions and is not in the Hall of Fame. And he is not even on your list?

Here are the top position players who fit this description - according to the NEWS HOF Gauge.

36. Dick Allen 314
62. Sherry Magee 293
71. Ron Santo 287
72. Bill Dahlen 286
87. Jimmy Sheckard 278

Author of BASEBALL'S BEST: The TRUE Hall of Famers

[jjpm74]

Whaddya say, jjpm? It's your poll, would you like me to add some names for you?

Sure, go for it and omit Quisenberry while you're at it. I didn't realize he still had two years of regular eligibility left.

[ChrisLDuncan]

It's tough between Grich, Santo, and Wynn. However, of players not on the poll I'd say Allen, Blyleven, and Raines.

[Rockhound]

Only one name: Shoeless Joe Jackson

[Freakshow]

Only one name: Shoeless Joe Jackson
He's not eligible for VC election.

[jjpm74]

It's tough between Grich, Santo, and Wynn. However, of players not on the poll I'd say Allen, Blyleven, and Raines.

Blyleven and Raines, while very solid candidates, are still eligible via the standard election. This poll's asking about players who are no longer eligible via those standards and who are not banned from baseball.

Pete Rose, Joe Jackson, Eddie Ciccotte... are currently not eligible because baseball banned them from the game.

Players like Jim Rice, Andre Dawson, Bert Blyleven... are still eligible under the BBWAA standard elections.

Players like Rickey Henderson and Roberto Alomar who are retired but not yet up for consideration by the BBWAA also aren't being considered here.

[KCGHOST]

I, too, would vote for Bill Dahlen as my top choice by a wide margin as the most qualified candidate.

If I were an actual HoF VC elector I would really vote for Santo. Why?? Because he is alive to appreciate the honor.

[philkid3]

Blyleven is not eligible via the Veteran's Committee. Based on this month's results, I don't think he ever will be.

Two names stand out to me, players who got passed over due to when they played, Bill Dahlen and Sherry Magee. By the time the voting began they were out of collective memory long enough for them to get passed over, and they didn't have the champions others had. If the VC continued to do through the mid to late 90's, I don't doubt at least Bad Bill would have gotten in.

I thought about Dahlen but went with Santo.

Seeing you say Magee is heartening as I recently stumbled on him and I'm considering taking him in my All-Time draft. I wasn't sure if I had found someone with horrendously misleading stats or not.

[Otis Nixon's Bodyguard]

Dick Allen all the way. Although when Albert Belle becomes eligable, he'll be my choice.

[Chickazoola]

Dahlen is my pick. If I could ignore Allen's dickishness and cancerous tendencies he would be my choice. Sherry Magee, Larry Doyle and Wes Ferrell are all guys I am fond of too, but I understand the reasons for them not being in.

Dahlen is just forgotten about, and with Allen it's a character issue, and now as we get further from his career his counting numbers don't look especially impressive.

[STLCards2]

I voted other: Dick Allen

[lovethegame]

Santo being out is a crime.
better offensively then Brooks, close defensively , did it as a diabetic in the sun and heat.
Shameful

[lovethegame]

I voted other: Dick AllenScariest hitter for a decade you are so right

[GiambiJuice]

I voted other and for me it's Gavvy Cravath. It's not his total numbers stand out, but he really dominated the game and was a true home run revolutionary before The Babe.

He didn't really get started playing full time until he was 31 years old, yet still he led his league in....

HR - SIX times
On base % - two times
OPS and OPS+ - three times
Extra base hits - four times

His Black ink score is 30th all time, again, despite a really late start.

[Captain Cold Nose]

I finally figured out (RichmondHillPhoenix told me) how to fix the poll. So if anyone would like to have their vote changed that hasn't made it known here, please let me know. I'll remove the votes for Other that have been accounted for.

[dodgerdave]

Will Clark gets my vote.

Gotta love his .303/.384/.497 line. His .881 OPS corresponds to a 137 OPS+.

Good defense too.

[frehleyscomet]

Dave Parker hands down.

[Captain Cold Nose]

Dave Parker hands down.

Neither Parker nor Clark are eligible based on the criteria set by the poll creator.

[fenrir]

dick allen.

[commishbob]

In the past I've always answered "Gil Hodges", but I'm less certain now. I'm being swayed by the Ron Santo arguments.

[Appling]

I rank Blyleven as best player not in HOF. Why is he not eligible for Veterans' Committee ballot? Is he still on the BBWAA list?

Similar questions for Tony Oliva. I rank him best of the position players not yet in HOF.

[Captain Cold Nose]

I rank Blyleven as best player not in HOF. Why is he not eligible for Veterans' Committee ballot? Is he still on the BBWAA list?

Similar questions for Tony Oliva. I rank him best of the position players not yet in HOF.

Blyleven still has four years on the writer's ballot.

[ElHalo]

Hm. Not sure why I can't vote on this poll (was it time limited? Why?), but my answer is Joe Gordon.

[Frank]

I would also like to see *Bob Johnson's* name added to the list he played from 1933-1945.. He was the fifth player to have nine consecutive seasons of 20 or more home runs, and his 288 career HRs ranked eighth in major league history when he retired. Usually playing on inferior teams, he batted .300 five times, had eight seasons with 100 runs batted in, and finished his career among the AL's top five right-handed hitters in career RBI (1283), runs (1239), slugging average (.506), total bases (3501) and walks (1075). He held the Athletics franchise record for career runs from 1942 to 1993. He also ranked among the AL leaders in games in left field (3rd, 1592) and outfield putouts (10th, 4003) and assists (8th, 208) when his career ended..Johnson compiled a .296 career batting average with 2051 hits, 396 doubles, 95 triples and 96 stolen bases in 1863 games. His 1592 games in left field then put him behind only Goose Goslin (1949) and Bobby Veach (1671) in AL history.

[catcher24]

I went with Ron Santo. Yes, Allen had some monster offensive years and I wouldn't argue his choice. But some credit has to be given Santo for his competence in the field, of which Allen had virtually none. And Allen did tend to create some unharmonious situations on clubs he played for. Does that really have any effect on team performance? Who knows? I don't know of any studies that have tried to answer this question, but in my own mind I believe it does tend to have a negative effect on the rest of the team. Santo, on the other hand, played every game, played well, played with diabetes and always did what he could to help the team. I have never read anything bad about Ron. Perhaps it's out there and I just missed it.

My apologies to those supporting 19th and early 20th century players. Yes, there are some who are simply forgotten and had great careers. No, it's not right nor is it fair. However, the fact that the BBWAA completely overlooked the player that in MHO was the premier third baseman of the 60s, who is still active in the game as an announcer for the Cubs, and who never did anything to negatively reflect on himself or the game, and who did many things to positively reflect on himself and the game, is an absolutely egregious omission. Sad to say that those on the Veteran's Committee haven't seen the light yet, either. It will probably be one of those unfortunate situations where it takes the death of the player to finally get the voters to take notice. In this case that would most certainly be too little, too late - and an absolute shame on the voters.

[philkid3]

For the life of me I don't understand how Santo still isn't in. I mean, how has what seems to be obvious to the overwhelming majority not caught on? That he's not just some borderline guy but someone who should have been in on his first ballot.

It's just weird. What on earth is keeping him out? I understand the questionable difference of opinion on how good Dick Allen actually was, and that he wasn't likeable and such, but what's the beef with Santo?


Even if you didn't vote for Santo in this poll, you have to agree he's the most puzzling omission, right? Can someone explain it to me? I understand why he wasnt' elected at first. Why is he still not in?

[catcher24]

I sure don't know why he's not in. It seems the BBWAA would have elected him sometime in his 15 years on their ballot. Sad to think that all those writers feel Robin Yount was justified, but not Santo. The fact that they didn't reflects very badly upon their judgment and their reputation as the elective body for the Hall. With all the tinkering that the HOF has done with the Veteran's Committee in the last few years, I guess I'm not totally surprised that Santo didn't get in under the current format, but it seems to me that with several players who played with and against Santo on that committee, he should've gotten in. Perhaps no one is presenting his case. Too bad Billy Williams and Ernie Banks aren't really pushing for Santo. Or if they did, apparently no one was paying attention.

[NJMetfan4life]

I voted Hodges, slight edge over Joe Jackson.

[Fuzzy Bear]

I picked Dick Allen and his .746 career OWP.

I've been down on Allen in the past, but I've come around. I'm convinced that a good deal of the Bill James-related negativity about Allen has been refuted.

[Paul Wendt]

My apologies to those supporting 19th and early 20th century players. Yes, there are some who are simply forgotten and had great careers. No, it's not right nor is it fair. However, the fact that the BBWAA completely overlooked the player [Ron Santo] that in MHO was the premier third baseman of the 60s, who is still active in the game as an announcer for the Cubs, and who never did anything to negatively reflect on himself or the game, and who did many things to positively reflect on himself and the game, is an absolutely egregious omission.

The poll question is
Poll: Who is the best player not currently in Cooperstown?
but it was posted with a different, shorter list of alternatives, revised after many votes had been cast. So it is less scientific than typical BBFever polls.

[Cougar]

I voted Minnie Minoso, by a hair over Ron Santo.

[jjpm74]

The poll question is
Poll: Who is the best player not currently in Cooperstown?
but it was posted with a different, shorter list of alternatives, revised after many votes had been cast. So it is less scientific than typical BBFever polls.

This thread's purpose was to generate casual discussion, not to be scientific in any way. Had I intended it to be a scientific approach, the title would have read:

Which candidate not eligible for induction to the Hall of Fame via the BBWAA ballot has the strongest case for induction? and it would have followed with a statistical analysis of who I feel are the strongest candidates and wouldn't have been a poll.

Not who's the best player. No statistical analysis of any kind was presented by me. It was meant to be for the people here who get scared away by intense statistical analysis. Not every topic in this forum needs to be a SABRmetric analysis of win shares. It's nice to read opinions from more than 6-12 of the same people on occasion.

[catcher24]

Posted by Paul Wendt:
The poll question is
Poll: Who is the best player not currently in Cooperstown?

When I consider "best", I take into account all facets, including intangibles. Certainly not as scientific as a straight SABRmetric rating, but I personally think that intangibles do play a role, even at the professional level. Hence, my choice would still most likely have been Santo.

[leecemark]

--The thing with Santo is he can reasonable be argued to rank as high as 5th all time amoung thirdbasemen. He can NOT be reasonable argued to not be in the top 10 at his position. There is nobody else outside the Hall of Fame with with that kind of resume. With the other candidates for "best outside the Hall" there is at least some semi-reasonable explanation for why they haven't made it. There is no rationale for not indurcting Santo. Really I can't even imagine how either the BWAA or the VC have managed to miss on him.

[Paul Wendt]

--The thing with Santo is . . .
With the other candidates for "best outside the Hall" there is at least some semi-reasonable explanation for why they haven't made it. There is no rationale for not inducting Santo. Really I can't even imagine how either the BWAA or the VC have managed to miss on him.

explaining how the VC missed him (explaining, not excusing)

Maybe he was caught in transition. The Veterans Committee last met in 2001, replaced in 2003 by a secret ballot of all living HOF members and honorees.
- Much of the new electorate, the HOF players, share selfish interest in limiting admission. Do the tighten up!
- Suppose 10% simply gloss over him (Santo or any other name on the ballot) with out the explicit direction of their attention that would happen in committee meeting. Then he (or anyone) needs 75/90=83.3% of the voters who give him attention in the privacy of their ballots.
- The few who are intentionally against him don't need to explain themselves, as they might in committee meeting; nor even to hear arguments in favor, as they would inevitably in committee meeting.

In those ways, perhaps, the reorganization worked against Ron Santo.

- How old was Santo in 2001? Did the Veterans Cmte frequently or ever elect players so young? I suppose Orlando Cepeda was younger than Maz, Nellie or Jim Bunning when elected. I doubt the VC anticipated its demise (rather, I think that revolution was partly a response to its selections). So they expected to elect Santo in the usual fullness of time, but time never came.

In that sense, perhaps, the old Vets Cmte didn't genuinely reject Ron Santo. It only looks that way.

[STLCards2]

--The thing with Santo is he can reasonable be argued to rank as high as 5th all time amoung thirdbasemen. He can NOT be reasonable argued to not be in the top 10 at his position. There is nobody else outside the Hall of Fame with with that kind of resume. With the other candidates for "best outside the Hall" there is at least some semi-reasonable explanation for why they haven't made it. There is no rationale for not indurcting Santo. Really I can't even imagine how either the BWAA or the VC have managed to miss on him.

I would put in Santo second, after Allen. I would love to hear any semi-reasonable explanation for Allen being excluded too.

[leecemark]

--I think we all know why Dick Allen is not in the Hall. He was/is regarded as a clubhouse cancer who nobody wanted to keep around. His career was a little short - and came at a time when offensive levels were historically low -making his counting numbers less than compelling. I don't agree with this line of thinking, but I understand how people can look at him and say no.

[STLCards2]

--I think we all know why Dick Allen is not in the Hall. He was/is regarded as a clubhouse cancer who nobody wanted to keep around. His career was a little short - and came at a time when offensive levels were historically low -making his counting numbers less than compelling. I don't agree with this line of thinking, but I understand how people can look at him and say no.

You are right, I was looking at it from our perspective and not the average voters'.

Santo had a fairly short career without gaudy counting stats too - without postseason appearances to boot. I am sure some of these factors contributed to his omission as well.

[philkid3]

I would put in Santo second, after Allen. I would love to hear any semi-reasonable explanation for Allen being excluded too.

I can't think for a reasonable one, but at least I get why he's out. He played sucky defense mostly at less-than-valuable positions and, as Frehley's Comet will point out, his baseball card stats don't look that pretty. He doesn't have good counting stats and he didn't play long. And he was a jerk who never won championships.

It's a stupid argument ,but at least I get it.

[catcher24]

Posted by Paul Wendt:
Maybe he was caught in transition. The Veterans Committee last met in 2001, replaced in 2003 by a secret ballot of all living HOF members and honorees.

I touched on this in a previous reply, but your response is more accurate. I had forgotten they went to the secret ballot rather than the committee meetings. In the meetings, a member could argue the case for a candidate(s) - and Frankie Frisch argued long, strenuously and successfully to get several of his former team mates elected. Were that system still in use, I would expect Banks, Williams and perhaps Jenkins to argue on Santo's behalf. Since that option is gone, Santo may unfortunately never get in. I think the fault clearly lies with the BBWAA who saw fit to keep Santo out.

[OleMissCub]

You'd think that in today's society there would also be some extra pressure to get Santo in based upon his disability. I believe he's still the only major league baseball player to play with Type 1 Juvenile Diabetes, and certainly the only one who was a HOF caliber player.

[Captain Cold Nose]

You'd think that in today's society there would also be some extra pressure to get Santo in based upon his disability. I believe he's still the only major league baseball player to play with Type 1 Juvenile Diabetes, and certainly the only one who was a HOF caliber player.

The only other pro athlete of that caliber I can think of is Hockey HOF'er Bobby Clarke.

[yankillaz]

Am i the only one that voted for Sherry Magee??? Bill, where art thou?

[rich]

Wampum walloper...hands down