Sammy Sosa and PEDs

[AstrosFan]

Sammy Sosa's name was probably the biggest surprise in not appearing on the Mitchell report. He was expected by most to be one of the names mentioned, due to his increased size, strength, and power production. How has his absence from the Mitchell report affected your perception of him as a Hall of Fame candidate?

*Note: I know we've had a Sammy Sosa discussion in the Hall of Fame forum before, but I think this is different enough to warrant a separate thread. Jim, if you or any mod disagrees, I won't complain if you want to merge it with another thread.

[AstrosFan]

To clarify a few things:

This is not a mutiple choice poll. Choose the one that best applies to you. For example, if you believe Sosa used until the Mitchell Report came out, and did not think he belonged in the Hall because of this, but now that his name is not on the list, you think he is clean and deserves the Hall, you would choose: Used/No/Didn't Use/Yes. Pretty easy.

A second thing. Base your before and after opinion on the day before and the day after the Mitchell report was released. I do not care about what you thought of Sosa's Hall credentials four years before the report was released.

I hope that takes care of everything. If you see an option you would like to vote for that is not up there, let me know. I tried to account for all possibilities.

[Brad Harris]

To my mind, where anecdotal "evidence" is being used to convict these guys in the public eye, no better poster boy exists than Sammy Sosa.

[jalbright]

Sammy Sosa's name was probably the biggest surprise in not appearing on the Mitchell report. He was expected by most to be one of the names mentioned, due to his increased size, strength, and power production. How has his absence from the Mitchell report affected your perception of him as a Hall of Fame candidate?

*Note: I know we've had a Sammy Sosa discussion in the Hall of Fame forum before, but I think this is different enough to warrant a separate thread. Jim, if you or any mod disagrees, I won't complain if you want to merge it with another thread.

I don't think we've had a thread dedicated to the topic of Sammy's alleged PED use, and for that reason I'll leave it as is. That said, if this slides into being another typical steroid abuse thread (there's enough of them, you should know what they look like, and if not, do a search and you should be able to figure it out), I'll close the thread, no ifs, ands or buts.

[OleMissCub]

Sosa had some completely amazing seasons.

From 98-01, Sosa's total bases were 416, 397, 383, and 425.

No one has ever had that many total bases in a 4 season period. Sick.

[The Splendid Splinter]

Sosa had some completely amazing seasons.

From 98-01, Sosa's total bases were 416, 397, 383, and 425.

No one has ever had that many total bases in a 4 season period. Sick.

true... Gehrig, Helton, and Foxx are the only ones beside Sosa I know with 2 400+ total bases in a 4 year span but those 3 did it in back to back years.

[Brad Harris]

Sosa had some completely amazing seasons.

From 98-01, Sosa's total bases were 416, 397, 383, and 425.

No one has ever had that many total bases in a 4 season period. Sick.

That's rather the point, isn't it? From age 29-32, Sosa averaged 405 TB per season. The other 14 years of his career? Barely 220 TB per season. That's an incredible outlier for someone's peak. And that those years occurred precisely during the peak years (1998-2001) of this era makes it all the more curious.

[Mild Sauce]

The peak years went well beyond 2001, in 2001 we were just getting into the prime of the Bonds years, which went up through 2004 or 2005.

[lovethegame]

He most certainly belongs

[Brad Harris]

I'd like to hear an argument by the guy who voted "no" but didn't believe Sosa was a steroid user. 600 home runs not good enough for the Hall of Fame?

[White Knight]

OK, let's assume he is finally retired. Let's also assume in the next five years, his name is not mentioned in any future Mitchell Reports, by any former personal trainer, or even by Jose Canseco. Does he make the HOF? How can you deny 600+ HR's into the HOF without any hard evidence or even accusations?

[John Shoemaker]

IMO definitily a hall of famer. I think in the next 5 years we will find out that a lot of his 609 homeruns were hit off pitchers using steroids - thus strengthening his case for the HOF.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

I've always like Sosa. I voted yes. We have five years to see if any solid evidence of PED use comes to light.

[willshad]

Hello no...never. If Mcgwire didnt make it why should Sammy? The evidence is in the numbers. 60 homers was only achieved twice cleanly in 120 years of baseball, and we are supposed to beleive Sosa did it 3 times in 4 years cleanly? To me that is even more compelling evidence than a positive steroid test.

[White Knight]

Hello no...never. If Mcgwire didnt make it why should Sammy? The evidence is in the numbers. 60 homers was only achieved twice cleanly in 120 years of baseball, and we are supposed to beleive Sosa did it 3 times in 4 years cleanly? To me that is even more compelling evidence than a positive steroid test.

BS. If evidence is in numbers than Babe Ruth must have used steroids too. So if a player does something that no one else ever did before, he must have been on PED's? Nonsense! If no hard evidence comes out, then the writers have to only look at his numbers.

[KCW]

Steroids or not, it's hard to argue against his numbers. I think McGwire will eventually make it, and so will Sosa.

[leecemark]

--I think Sosa was using steroids. But I think ALOT of guys (pitchers and hitters alike) were using steroids and few of them produced at the level Sosa did. Bonds and Clemens may not make it on the first ballot because of their PED use, but they will make it. Once they do, then the door is open for McGwire, Sosa and prehaps Palmeiro (I think Raffy will make it eventually - 3,000/500 are just too big to ignore, but it may take a long time - even passing to the VC).

[willshad]

--I think Sosa was using steroids. But I think ALOT of guys (pitchers and hitters alike) were using steroids and few of them produced at the level Sosa did. Bonds and Clemens may not make it on the first ballot because of their PED use, but they will make it. Once they do, then the door is open for McGwire, Sosa and prehaps Palmeiro (I think Raffy will make it eventually - 3,000/500 are just too big to ignore, but it may take a long time - even passing to the VC).

I think Raffy has an even less chance than Sosa. True, Barry and Roger also lied and vehemently denied what everybody else knew was true. But at least they have a case that they might have been hall of famers WITHOUT steroids. I dont see how raffy has such a case. Theres 3 different possibilites here:

1) Voters will eventually warm up to the steroid users, and will start to induct obvious users, as long as they have the numbers.

2) Voters will not budge, and will not induct ANY users, regardless of their numbers. (as they have done so far)

3) Voters will decide to penalize for steroid use, and subjectively decide if each individual would have been a hall of famer anyway, without juicing.

The only way Sosa gets in is in scenerio number 1.

Indeed, if steroids were around in the 1920s, and especially if they were as widespread as in the 1990s. then im sure Ruth would be accused, even moreso than Sammy. But they werent, so the point is moot. If he had gone from a skinny guy to a musclebound bodybuilder during his late 20s, and started to double his home run production at that age ,then Im sure it would have been an open and shut case.Ruth's numbers were pretty consistent throughout his career.

[jalbright]

I'm merging two Sammy and PED threads into one. I did put a warning in this one in post #4 about it becoming the standard PED argument thread, and that still stands.

[SamtheBravesFan]

Indeed, if steroids were around in the 1920s, and especially if they were as widespread as in the 1990s. then im sure Ruth would be accused, even moreso than Sammy. But they werent, so the point is moot. If he had gone from a skinny guy to a musclebound bodybuilder during his late 20s, and started to double his home run production at that age ,then Im sure it would have been an open and shut case.Ruth's numbers were pretty consistent throughout his career.

I looked it up on a whim, and it seems to me that Ruth's home run totals jumped when he joined the Yankees (20 in 1919 to 54 and 59 in 1920 and 1921) because they were playing in the Polo Grounds at the time; a very cozy ballpark down the lines (and a nightmare in center, of course).

After New York moved into Yankee Stadium in 1923, Ruth started to hit home run totals in the 40s pretty consistently. So I'd say you're right.

[Fuzzy Bear]

Sosa was NOT mentioned in the Mitchell Report; his PED use is, so far, innuendo.

Sosa is the only man in baseball history to hit 60 HRs three (3) times. Oddly enough, he never led the league in any of those seasons, but, still, 60 HRs in three of four seasons is some accomplishment.

Sosa has also exceeded 600 HRs in his career; one of only five players to do so. Ken Griffey, Jr. is sure to exceed Sosa's total this year if he stays healthy, but he's the only active player that's really got a chance (except for A-Rod, who's several years away).

Sosa wasn't all that as a player; his deficiencies are well documented in these threads, but given his HR feats, there would be absolutely NO precedent for keeping him out of the HOF. He's not Dave Kingman, not by a longshot. There is no reason to keep Sammy Sosa out of the HOF.

[Paul Wendt]

Thirteen times in fourteen seasons 1918-1931 he led the league in home run rate with atbats the denominator. 1920 was his highest rate (1 in 8.5).

[Skin & Bones]

I think Raffy has an even less chance than Sosa. True, Barry and Roger also lied and vehemently denied what everybody else knew was true. But at least they have a case that they might have been hall of famers WITHOUT steroids. I dont see how raffy has such a case. Theres 3 different possibilites here:

1) Voters will eventually warm up to the steroid users, and will start to induct obvious users, as long as they have the numbers.

2) Voters will not budge, and will not induct ANY users, regardless of their numbers. (as they have done so far)

3) Voters will decide to penalize for steroid use, and subjectively decide if each individual would have been a hall of famer anyway, without juicing.

The only way Sosa gets in is in scenerio number 1.

Indeed, if steroids were around in the 1920s, and especially if they were as widespread as in the 1990s. then im sure Ruth would be accused, even moreso than Sammy. But they werent, so the point is moot. If he had gone from a skinny guy to a musclebound bodybuilder during his late 20s, and started to double his home run production at that age ,then Im sure it would have been an open and shut case.Ruth's numbers were pretty consistent throughout his career.

I'm just curious, are you a Yankees fan? Because I pretty consistently see you defending either Roger (and now Sheff whom you feel is underrated, despite his known steroid usage), while bashing other alleged juicers like Bonds, Sosa, and Mcgwire, and occasionally you even throw Thome's name into the mix without any evidence at all.

[OleMissCub]

Slammy is the great Houdini with regards to the late unpleasantness

[Brad Harris]

Sosa was NOT mentioned in the Mitchell Report; his PED use is, so far, innuendo.

As is a fair amount of the "evidence" in the Mitchell Report.

[Yankee Legend]

Your poll is too confusing.

[BlueBlood]

No, it's not.

1) Did you believe he used BEFORE the Mitchell Report was released?

2) Did you find Sosa to be worthy of the Hall BEFORE the Mitchell Report?

3) After reading the Mitchell Report, do you believe he used?

4) After reading the Mitchell Report, do you now find Sosa worthy of the Hall?

[leecemark]

--Sammy Sosa wasn't even mentioned in the Mitchell Report was he? I thought he was a user before the report came out and it didn't make any difference either way to my opinion on that. I'd still probably vote for him for the Hall, because I think steroids were so common in baseball that its impoosible to judge any particular player by whether he used or not or how much it helped him.

[steelcurtain76]

Why do you guys think he wasn't offered a contract by anyone this season. He showed last season that he can still hit the ball...21 HR/ 92 RBI isn't that bad.

I thought someone would bring him in as a DH. Do you think he is "unsignable" like Raffy and Bonds have been?

[Brad Harris]

Why do you guys think he wasn't offered a contract by anyone this season. He showed last season that he can still hit the ball...21 HR/ 92 RBI isn't that bad.

I thought someone would bring him in as a DH. Do you think he is "unsignable" like Raffy and Bonds have been?

Among AL outfielders or DHs with 800+ PA over the past 3 seasons, Sosa's OBP (.303) is second lowest only to Craig Monroe's .300! Whatever his price, that's simply horrendous for any DH. Furthermore, Sosa will turn 40 this fall. His production fell off over 2003 and 2004, when baseball first began steroid testing at the Major League level and, finally, when it introduced penalties for failing the tests, by 2005, Sosa's performance dropped dramatically so it's not at all unreasonable to presume that Sosa was a PED user who is now old, off the juice and pretty well washed up. Not worth a half-million waiver for the kind of performance a team could reasonably expect. Besides, now that he's passed the 600 HR mark, there really aren't any career plateaus he could reach that would boost his chances at election.

[White Knight]

Why do you guys think he wasn't offered a contract by anyone this season. He showed last season that he can still hit the ball...21 HR/ 92 RBI isn't that bad.

I thought someone would bring him in as a DH. Do you think he is "unsignable" like Raffy and Bonds have been?

I believe it's all politics. In all honesty, he probably can hit more home runs than Frank Thomas, yet the Big Hurt was signed as soon as he was released. In a full year, with 600 at-bats, Sosa can still hit 30 home runs. Thomas can't.

[CROM]

In a full year, with 600 at-bats, Sosa can still hit 30 home runs. Thomas can't.


frank thomas in 531 at bats, hit 26 home runs and had a .377 OBP last year..

sure sosa can hit 30 HRs in 600 at bats but his OBP was .311 last year..

give me frank thomas any day of the week

[White Knight]

frank thomas in 531 at bats, hit 26 home runs and had a .377 OBP last year..

sure sosa can hit 30 HRs in 600 at bats but his OBP was .311 last year..

give me frank thomas any day of the week

I dunno. Perhaps I'm a little partial to Sosa, because I am a mega fan of the Steroids Era (not saying he took them or not, however). You're right though, .311 OBP is terrible. I still hope he plays again in the ML though.

[Brad Harris]

I believe it's all politics. In all honesty, he probably can hit more home runs than Frank Thomas, yet the Big Hurt was signed as soon as he was released. In a full year, with 600 at-bats, Sosa can still hit 30 home runs. Thomas can't.
Maybe. But the 14 teams in the American League can find better hitters to play DH for them, many of which are cheaper. It's economics, not politics.

[Brad Harris]

Since this was brought up in another thread recently, I dug into the archives to find this poll. 87.8% of respondents believe Sosa used steroids despite the fact he was not named in the Mitchell Report.

[gman5431]

Are there people out there that truly, deep down, believe Sammy Sosa never took anything illegal or performance enhancing of any kind.....?

G Man

[Brad Harris]

Are there people out there that truly, deep down, believe Sammy Sosa never took anything illegal or performance enhancing of any kind.....?

G Man

At least six. :laugh

[White Knight]

Are there people out there that truly, deep down, believe Sammy Sosa never took anything illegal or performance enhancing of any kind.....?

G Man
I don't know. Even I believe he probably used, but I just say with no proof the HOF voters should treat him as innocent. Mac too.

[SamtheBravesFan]

I don't know. Even I believe he probably used, but I just say with no proof the HOF voters should treat him as innocent. Mac too.

Right. In that scenario, it's like a court of law. Because we don't have any proof of his use other than the circumstantial evidence of his stats and corked bat, we can't say for certain that he used PEDs.

[White Knight]

Right. In that scenario, it's like a court of law. Because we don't have any proof of his use other than the circumstantial evidence of his stats and corked bat, we can't say for certain that he used PEDs.

Exactly. If Sosa gets denied the HOF, my advise to any player is if don't hit more than 55 HR's a season. Anymore and they will suspect you are using and deny you to the HOF. After your 55th HR, strike out on purpose or go for singles. Don't hit the gym too much either, or they'll think you "look" like you're juicing.

[SamtheBravesFan]

Exactly. If Sosa gets denied the HOF, my advise to any player is if don't hit more than 55 HR's a season. Anymore and they will suspect you are using and deny you to the HOF. After your 55th HR, strike out on purpose or go for singles. Don't hit the gym too much either, or they'll think you "look" like you're juicing.

I've actually been wondering about the 50 homer benchmark myself. Luis Gonzalez, Andruw Jones and Brady Anderson are thought to have used PEDs because they had a 50-homer season one year and nothing that close before or after it. Is this just going to keep on for as long as baseball exists?

[White Knight]

I've actually been wondering about the 50 homer benchmark myself. Luis Gonzalez, Andruw Jones and Brady Anderson are thought to have used PEDs because they had a 50-homer season one year and nothing that close before or after it. Is this just going to keep on for as long as baseball exists?

I wonder what these guys would think of Roger Maris is he played in the PED era. 61 HR's one year and his next highest totals are 39, 33, and 28.

[Fuzzy Bear]

--Sammy Sosa wasn't even mentioned in the Mitchell Report was he? I thought he was a user before the report came out and it didn't make any difference either way to my opinion on that. I'd still probably vote for him for the Hall, because I think steroids were so common in baseball that its impoosible to judge any particular player by whether he used or not or how much it helped him.


I agree with all of this.

[SamtheBravesFan]

I wonder what these guys would think of Roger Maris is he played in the PED era. 61 HR's one year and his next highest totals are 39, 33, and 28.

They'd treat him like Luis Gonzalez, probably.