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Mike Hoban
01-17-2008, 10:35 PM
At times, the manner in which some writers who are members of the BBWAA vote in the Hall of Fame elections seemingly defies rational explanation. Writers receive a ballot containing a list of candidates for the Hall. They are asked to vote for ten players at most. I would assume that if someone is voting for the first time, he (or she) would ask himself – who do I think is deserving of induction.

It seems to me that a voter could decide that there are not ten players on the ballot deserving of the Hall and, therefore, choose to vote for only a few who he considers worthy. This is perfectly understandable. But my assumption would be that a serious voter will only vote for those players who he feels really deserve to be in the Hall. And if one of his choices does not make it on this ballot, he will continue to vote for that deserving player in future ballots.

It could even happen that a voter learns something new about a candidate who he did not vote for and decides to vote for that candidate in the future. This, of course, could happen. But I would expect that it would be an unusual event since I would like to believe that any voter would take the duty seriously enough to do his (or her) homework the first time around. Alas, it does not appear that this is the way that some voters go about their duties at all. It almost seems that some of the voters must be flipping a coin or spinning a dial looking for help to guide them – because there are times when events happen that seem to defy common sense. Here is an example of one of those times.

Allie Reynolds and Bob Lemon were both effective starting pitchers during their careers. Reynolds pitched in the American League for thirteen seasons from 1942 to 1954. During that time, he compiled a won/loss record of 182/107 for a winning percentage of .630. His career ERA was 3.30 compared to a league ERA of 3.61. Those are fairly good numbers.

Bob Lemon also pitched in the American League. His career also covered thirteen seasons from 1946 to 1958. During that time, he compiled a won/loss record of 207/128 for a winning percentage of .618 - just slightly less than Reynold’s. His career ERA was 3.23 compared to a league ERA of 3.85 – somewhat better than Reynold’s.

To many fans, these two pitchers would seem to have had very similar careers. And, at the moment, I am not concerned with whether either pitcher had HOF credentials (I will comment on that below). Lemon won 25 more games but he also lost 21 more. I suspect that most fans would give a slight edge to Lemon after looking at the numbers. The careers of the two men overlapped from 1946 to 1954 (nine seasons) – so they would certainly be considered contemporaries. The question here is – how did the two players make out when they were on the BBWAA ballot for the Hall of Fame?

History of BBWAA Hall of Fame Voting for Allie Reynolds and Bob Lemon

Allie Reynolds

Year Votes Pct

1956 1 0.52
1960 24 8.92
1962 15 9.38
1964 35 17.41
1966 60 19.87
1967 77 26.37
1968 95 33.57
1969 98 28.82
1970 89 29.67
1971 110 30.56
1972 105 26.52
1973 93 24.47
1974 101 27.67

Bob Lemon

Year Votes Pct

1964 24 11.94
1966 21 6.95
1967 35 11.99
1968 47 16.61
1969 56 16.47
1970 75 25.00
1971 90 25.00
1972 117 29.55
1973 177 46.58
1974 190 52.05
1975 233 64.36
1976 305 78.61

Look at the years 1964 to 1971. For seven straight votes of the BBWAA, more voters thought Allie Reynolds was more deserving of the Hall of Fame than Bob Lemon. At least that is how I read the vote. In the middle of that span (1968), Reynolds got more than twice as many votes as Lemon (95 to 47). So, what would the normal fan expect to happen after 1968? Either Reynolds would get into the Hall ahead of Lemon or, possibly, neither player would make it. In fact, in 1968, the latter choice would seem reasonable since Reynolds got only 33.6% of the vote and Lemon only 16.6%. There was no reason for anyone to think that over 40% more of the voters would decide that Reynolds belonged in the Hall or almost 60% more would decide that Lemon was worthy. And so, what actually happened to Bob Lemon defies rational explanation.

In 1972, a funny thing happened on the way to the Hall of Fame. After both players had been retired for many years, Bob Lemon suddenly and mysteriously became a “better pitcher” than Allie Reynolds. Or, at least one could infer that from what happened in the voting. In 1972, Lemon passed Reynolds in the voting and went on to be elected to the Hall in 1976. And Allie Reynolds was never elected. What happened? How can anyone logically explain this turn-around? I have asked this question of some very knowledgeable baseball people and have gotten only one theory.

How is it possible that in 1968 only 45 writers thought that Bob Lemon deserved to be in the Hall. Yet, eight years later (in 1976), 305 writers thought he was Hall of Fame material. His credentials were exactly the same in 1976 as they were in 1968. What does that say about the people who are voting? Well, one might suggest that the voting on the part of some writers is erratic and/or capricious - or that some people simply do not take it seriously. In either case, it is sad to see the ballots handled in such a thoughtless manner.

The point here is that there is no logical explanation for this result. Unfortunately, it is all too typical of what happens on occasion with the Hall of Fame voting.

There is some insight about the voting which has been suggested by some members of SABR. Bob Lemon became the manager of the Kansas City Royals in 1970 and managed them again in 1971 and 1972. In his first full season as a manager, he guided the team into second place with an 85-76 record. None of the other 1969 expansion teams had more than 71 wins, so Lemon was praised for his achievement. A similar surge in Hall of Fame votes has occurred for other players who became managers. Both Gil Hodges in 1970 and Joe Torre in 1997 saw their percentages double from the previous election.

Should a player’s vote for the Hall of Fame be influenced by what that player did in some other major league capacity (other than playing)? Should the fact that a player becomes a manager, or a broadcaster or a baseball executive have any bearing on whether they are voted into the Hall? I happen to think not – but I am aware of many fans who do think that these achievements should count somehow. Certainly, if either Gil Hodges or Joe Torre ever make it into the Hall, it will be due in part to their managerial careers.

In any case, the NEWS HOF Gauge suggests that neither of these pitchers has HOF numbers. However, Bob Lemon did put up much better numbers than Allie Reynolds during his pitching career.

Bob Lemon 225
Allie Reynolds 157

With a NEWS cut-off of 235 for HOF numbers for a starting pitcher, Bob Lemon came reasonably close to having HOF credentials while Allie Reynolds was not even in the ballpark. Another good question might be – how was Reynolds able to garner more support than Lemon from 1964 to 1971? How many writers were guilty of not examining the players’ credentials closely enough?

And this is just one example of the sometimes bizarre voting patterns that emerge from the BBWAA ballots for the Hall of Fame.

Author of BASEBALL'S BEST: The TRUE Hall of Famers

Chickazoola
01-17-2008, 11:32 PM
Reynolds primary credential is that he was 7-2 in World Series play while being Stengel's go-to guy for much of that.

The main edge superficially for Lemon is that he has over 200 wins. I think as voters got further and further away from seeing each man pitch, the fact the Lemon has 200 wins took precedence over Reynolds' key role on the Yankees. Also Lemon was still active in the baseball as a manager while Reynolds as far as I know was not involved in any capacity, so Lemon's name was in the papers while Reynolds was not.

If Lemon didn't have the 200 wins I doubt he would be in the Hall.

elmer
01-18-2008, 04:36 AM
Reynolds career was cut short or his numbers (of wins) would have been HoF electable.

Casey Stengel used him at odd times and for a starting pitcher, fairly often in relief. He was the stopper until this treatment of him ruined his arm.

Doubtless he would have finished with well over 200 victories.

dgarza
01-18-2008, 06:54 AM
Reasonable or not, there's the possibility that Lemon was "held back" because he was not remembered as the best pitcher on those Cleveland teams. Fair or not, I think Bob Feller took up alot of the spotlight, and Lemon and Wynn were left to fight for their due.

I don't think Allie Reynolds had to deal with that so much (altough he did spend some time in Cleveland [he's remembered more as a Yankee]).

Brad Harris
01-18-2008, 06:57 AM
If I recall correctly, win shares has Bob Lemon as the best pitcher in the league several times. I don't remember the same being true for Reynolds. If this is so, then Lemon would have an advantage, in spite of similar career totals.

DoubleX
01-18-2008, 07:12 AM
Interesting thread. This kind of stuff happens with the voters. In terms of HoF credentials, I think there is a pretty big gap between Lemon and Reynolds, as Mike's News Score indicates. In terms of ERA+, Lemon is at 119 while Reynolds is at 110 and Lemon pitched about 400 more innings. I think it's also worth noting that Reynolds pitched during WWII while Lemon didn't debut until 1946 when he was 25. So Lemon may have lost a few years of his career to WWII. Lemon also has some of those nice shining things that people like in their Hall of Famers - the 200+ wins in a short career, a nice 3.23 ERA, and 7 20 win seasons. Lemon also was a workhorse, four times pacing the league in innings, and six times in the top three, and eight times in the top 4. Reynolds in comparison won 20 games just once while pitching for great Yankee teams (though that also had to do with how Stengel used him) and only once finished as high as 5th in innings.

So one theory I have is that for a while, the voters were fixated on Reynolds being the ace of Yankee teams, while at the same time not giving Lemon his due. I think over time, the voters gained better perspective with Lemon. I don't know how much Lemon still being in the game helped his case - we've seen more recent examples of guys like Joe Torre and Alan Trammell not get much of a boost due to their managerial careers, but it may have been different back then (I have a feeling had Hodges gone on to a longer managerial career in NY, he would have been elected).

Einstein'sCurve
01-18-2008, 07:33 AM
And so, what actually happened to Bob Lemon defies rational explanation.


Here's my take. Lemon became a very good manager of the year type with the Royals starting in '70, and then becomes the Yankees pitching coach at the behest of Steinbrenner in 76. He becomes more interesting and accessible to the press, garners more ink, thus becoming more warm and cuddly for their votes. His voting shows a definite improvement year to year and especially in those critical years.

HOF started for greats, but evolved into a good old boys beauty contest, and now is considered something of a retirement benefit what with the trade in artifacts, signitures, and other memoribilia.

Trying to explain HOF voting would be like trying to explain political voting. Some folks never have a rhyme or reason for much of what they do but also like to promote their friends when possible.

Paul Wendt
01-18-2008, 01:15 PM
Have you looked at the support for contemporary players? You may find many others whose support swelled like Lemon's. The steady, slightly declining support for Reynolds 1968-74 may be no more common for someone with support in this range, say 10-40%

STLCards2
01-19-2008, 07:53 AM
I know this doesn't explain the large voting % jump, but here is something that hasn't been mentioned about Lemon:

Lemon was one of the best hitting pitchers in baseball history, used often as a pinch hitter, etc. Lemon created somewhere around 60-70 runs offensively above the average pitcher. "Apply" those runs to his ERA+ as if they were runs saved while pitching, and you have a pitcher with an ERA+ of around 125. A guy who led the league 4-5 times in IP, won over .600% of his games, with an ERA+ of 125 all while missing major war time, is a legitamate HOFer.

leecemark
01-19-2008, 08:37 AM
--I think the Hall of Fame ended up with the right guy. Lemon is a deserving Hall of Famer and Reynolds isn't. The early voting on this pair is odd though.

Buzzaldrin
01-19-2008, 09:44 AM
I know this doesn't explain the large voting % jump, but here is something that hasn't been mentioned about Lemon:

Lemon was one of the best hitting pitchers in baseball history, used often as a pinch hitter, etc. Lemon created somewhere around 60-70 runs offensively above the average pitcher. "Apply" those runs to his ERA+ as if they were runs saved while pitching, and you have a pitcher with an ERA+ of around 125. A guy who led the league 4-5 times in IP, won over .600% of his games, with an ERA+ of 125 all while missing major war time, is a legitamate HOFer.

Seven 20 game seasons in ten years? People say that wins are a meaningless stat- which is silly, they just aren't the be all and end all stat they were considered to be, but I'll tell you this- if you win 20 games seven times in 10 years, heck, if you win 20 games seven times in a career, and you played after 1900, you're a Hall of Famer. If you win 16 games seven times (as Reynolds did), well let's talk...

Frankly, I think Billy Pierce deserves the hall more than Reynolds.

Paul Wendt
01-19-2008, 11:17 AM
Have you looked at the support for contemporary players? You may find many others whose support swelled like Lemon's. The steady, slightly declining support for Reynolds 1968-74 may be no more common for someone with support in this range, say 10-40%
The pattern occurred after Lemon. Visit Orlando Cepeda on the BBWAA ballot, 1980-1994 (http://www.baseballhalloffame.org/playerVoting.do?playerId=112157)

Vaguely I recalled the same for Jim Bunning, who provides a closer comparison to Bob Lemon in other ways.
Jim Bunning's BBWAA record (http://www.baseballhalloffame.org/playerVoting.do?playerId=111691) shows that he never reaped less than 33.3%. His support blossomed from 33.3 to 74.2, 1982-88, but that happened in coincidence with great weakening of the candidate pool. Cepeda climbed from 10 to 46 in the same six years.

Seamhead
01-21-2008, 06:39 PM
Here's an article I just posted regarding this subject. I think you'll find it interesting.

http://seamheads.com/blog/2008/01/21/bob-lemon-and-the-hall-of-fame/

elmer
01-22-2008, 05:07 AM
http://www.thediamondangle.com/sitt/reynolds.html

http://baseballgm.blogspot.com/2006/03/bakers-dozen-13-brilliant-hall-of-fame_22.html
ALLIE REYNOLDS - the Big Chief's career didn't get going until he was 26 years old. He still managed to compile a 182-107 (.630) career record, while pitching to 86% or the league's ERA throughout his career.

LouGehrig
01-22-2008, 12:28 PM
Reynolds career was cut short or his numbers (of wins) would have been HoF electable.

Casey Stengel used him at odd times and for a starting pitcher, fairly often in relief. He was the stopper until this treatment of him ruined his arm.

Doubtless he would have finished with well over 200 victories.

Reynolds was in a bus accident and hurt his back. That was the cause of his problems.