Mark Kotsay in the works

[JCStone07]

Frank Wren is involved in discussions with Oakland GM Billy Beane for Mark Kotsay.

http://www.ajc.com/sports/content/sports/braves/stories/2008/01/11/braves_0112.html

[SamtheBravesFan]

I wouldn't mind this only if it's for an expendable prospect close to his ceiling (Prado or Thorman) and Oakland gives some money in return. After all, it's possible that Kotsay wouldn't be any better than Josh Anderson. This really would be feeding the team's fetish for "proven veterans", even if they end up sucking.

[NYMets523]

I wouldn't mind this only if it's for an expendable prospect close to his ceiling (Prado or Thorman) and Oakland gives some money in return. After all, it's possible that Kotsay wouldn't be any better than Josh Anderson. This really would be feeding the team's fetish for "proven veterans", even if they end up sucking.

The Braves will have to give up more than Prado or Thorman if they want the A's to pay some of Kotay's salary. Considering how many lefty pitchers Oakland has, it might take a right-hander.

EDIT: I was right. Joey Devine for Mark Kotsay
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3193556

[SamtheBravesFan]

And I wasn't a happy camper the second I heard about it. I'm still very uneasy. I seriously questtion Kotsay's ability to stay healthy. I don't think he can play a full season and keep Jordan Schafer in the minor leagues. If he stinks up the joint or gets hurt badly and forces the Braves to bring up Schafer, I'll be hearing "The Braves brought him up too early" for the rest of his career. I hate that and I don't want that to happen!

That is my main concern in all this: Jordan Schafer's development. Kotsay's back could sabotage it, BIG time.

[chip&smoltz95]

apparently kotsay for devine.... i don't know about this deal. sam's right... i don't see how he's much better than anderson, except maybe a little more proven.

[SamtheBravesFan]

apparently kotsay for devine.... i don't know about this deal. sam's right... i don't see how he's much better than anderson, except maybe a little more proven.

He would be much better than Anderson if he stays healthy. I just don't think that's going to happen. Given the Braves' recent track record in "veterans", I think he'll get hurt or suck, just like Mondesi, Jordan, Pratt, Woodward and Redman. If I left out anyone, I don't care.

That being said, Kotsay staying healthy and providing a serviceable bat and glove is key to the development of Jordan Schafer. We need to hope and pray that Kotsay remains healthy, that Anderson is an okay backup and that the situation doesn't get to the point where Schafer is rushed up to The Show.

[chip&smoltz95]

In return for Kotsay, the Braves are trading pitcher Joey Devine, and Oakland will assume $5.325 million of the $7.325 million owed to the center fielder for this year.

-espn.com


well, with that being said.. i guess that's not too bad a trade. I just really saw devine with a lot of potential. And felt that the playoff game against the astros really set his development back.
I wonder if anderson and kotsay will platoon in CF(even though they are both bat lefty.) Maybe it would keep kotsay healthy and anderson a chance to develop a little more.

[SamtheBravesFan]

well, with that being said.. i guess that's not too bad a trade. I just really saw devine with a lot of potential.

And that's why just about every single Braves fan I've seen on the Internet is just raising holy hell over this. Devine WAS the closer of the future, and the Braves are going to regret it when he closes with Oakland. That's pretty much all I heard.

[JCStone07]

Considering the Braves have Soriano, Gonzo, and Sung-Ki in the works I thought Devine was expendable. Of course the staying healthy is key about Kotsay but that's also the key to Chipper annually. So I'm actually glad we got a proven CF.

[PureBaseballFan]

And that's why just about every single Braves fan I've seen on the Internet is just raising holy hell over this. Devine WAS the closer of the future, and the Braves are going to regret it when he closes with Oakland. That's pretty much all I heard.That is possible but the keyword is potential. I liked Devine and I also saw good potential in him but the Braves aren't low on young relief arms that could be future closers, which is the main reason the Braves have traded not just Devine but also Ascanio. If the Braves didn't have decent depth in the minors then I would agree with you guys but with guys like Acosta, Morton, Jung, Resop, Schreiber, etc. it isn't nearly as big a loss and helps a need along with making a cheap low risk investment.

[Atlanta Braves Freak]

Hmm....this will only be Devine's third year in pro baseball and he's already on different team? I like the addition of Kotsay, because we get a proven Major Leaguer, but I don't think he's worth trading Joey Devine for.

[SamtheBravesFan]

Hmm....this will only be Devine's third year in pro baseball and he's already on different team? I like the addition of Kotsay, because we get a proven Major Leaguer, but I don't think he's worth trading Joey Devine for.

It'll be his fourth year, but who's really counting?

See, this is the "potential" thing all over again. Ooooo, Devine has closer potential. The Braves could have traded him for more! It doesn't matter that they're not going to be stuck with Josh Anderson or Gregor Blanco in center anymore! Nooooooooooo, Devine's going to be so good that he's going to make Beane trade away Street!

NOTE: I thought what you did last night, but then I realized that all this is based on potential when, in truth, either player could just fall off the face of the earth tomorrow.

[SamtheBravesFan]

but with guys like Acosta, Morton, Jung, Resop, Schreiber, etc. it isn't nearly as big a loss and helps a need along with making a cheap low risk investment.

Chris Resop? That's a reach, man. I agree with the rest of the players' potential, but RESOP? :laugh ;)

[PureBaseballFan]

Chris Resop? That's a reach, man. I agree with the rest of the players' potential, but RESOP? :laugh ;)I trust the Braves scouts I am not saying he is going to be as good as the other players. If the Braves scouts see something in him then I trust them because even though it sounds crazy you could have said the same thing when the Braves got Jaret Wright.

[Dalkowski110]

Recent reports indicate that the deal is "tentitive" (Buster Olney strikes again!)...however, there's one problem. For Billy Beane to eat the salary he does with Kotsay, he not only wants Devine, but also a lesser righty reliever (speculation at this point is a guy on the A ball level). I'd think Devine would be more than enough...

[SamtheBravesFan]

Well, of course he wants another reliever. That'll just make the fans raising holy hell over this raise more hell.

[Atlanta Braves Freak]

It'll be his fourth year, but who's really counting?

See, this is the "potential" thing all over again. Ooooo, Devine has closer potential. The Braves could have traded him for more! It doesn't matter that they're not going to be stuck with Josh Anderson or Gregor Blanco in center anymore! Nooooooooooo, Devine's going to be so good that he's going to make Beane trade away Street!

NOTE: I thought what you did last night, but then I realized that all this is based on potential when, in truth, either player could just fall off the face of the earth tomorrow.
Thanks for the correction. I'm content with the addition of Kotsay, but there had to be someone other than Devine that Billy Beane wanted or the Braves could have offered. The "potential" thing has to be played over again, because obviously Joey Devine wasn't a first round pick for no reason. He showed he had big league talent.

[PureBaseballFan]

Thanks for the correction. I'm content with the addition of Kotsay, but there had to be someone other than Devine that Billy Beane wanted or the Braves could have offered. The "potential" thing has to be played over again, because obviously Joey Devine wasn't a first round pick for no reason. He showed he had big league talent.Potential is great but it means nothing till you prove that you can live up to it. I think a good example is Macay McBride he to was a first round selection and people had high hopes for him including myself but he hasn't lived up to that. I do believe Devine could be a good reliever but right now he wass expendable and it would overall help the team so to me it is a fine trade.

[CROM]

looks like a done seal. braves gave up 2 prospects. devine and richmond

[Dalkowski110]

The second prospect was confirmed as RHP Jamie Richmond.

[PureBaseballFan]

The second prospect was confirmed as RHP Jamie Richmond.Not a big loss Richmond seems to be a back end of the rotation guy at best.

[SamtheBravesFan]

Not a big loss Richmond seems to be a back end of the rotation guy at best.

Oooooh, not according to those "he has a super walk rate" people, he doesn't!

Man, why is it that people hate this trade so much? Is the the fact that Kotsay isn't expected to play a full season? Is it because of the prospect of him hitting leadoff or second makes people want to puke? Is it the fact that Devine and Richmond are all of a sudden going to make the Braves wish they hadn't made the trade?

Seriously. I'm hearing all of that.

[NYMets523]

Were the Braves ever intersted in Coco Crisp? He'd seem like a better option than Mark Kotsay since he doesn't need a wheelchair.

[jwkfs]

Were the Braves ever intersted in Coco Crisp? He'd seem like a better option than Mark Kotsay since he doesn't need a wheelchair.

1) Boston wants a lot more for Crisp.
2) Crisp has multiple years left on his contract...
3) For more money.

[JCStone07]

Were the Braves ever intersted in Coco Crisp? He'd seem like a better option than Mark Kotsay since he doesn't need a wheelchair.

Ah typical Mets fan, trying to discredit a Braves move. The Braves didn't want Crisp cuz they only need a CF for one more year.

[SamtheBravesFan]

1) Boston wants a lot more for Crisp.
2) Crisp has multiple years left on his contract...
3) For more money.

You got it. Plus, he's only a glove.

The Braves need just a one-year stop gap, and Kotsay was essentially the best solution.

[NYMets523]

You got it. Plus, he's only a glove.

The Braves need just a one-year stop gap, and Kotsay was essentially the best solution.

Kotsay is just a glove as well.

[PureBaseballFan]

Kotsay is just a glove as well.When you compare their career stats Kotsay has a better OBP, BA and SLG. Also when healthy Kotsay usually has a higher BA in the range of .280 - .295, along with an OBP .325 - .340, and a lower strikeout to walk ratio. Compared to Crisp's BA average range of .260 - .270, or his OBP average range of .310 - .335. Crisp only real edge is steals which on the Braves isn't as important as overall OBP or BA. Crisp is a better defensive player but Kotsay is above average and his overall offensive abilities outweigh Crisp's better defense.





Also the addition of his wife was worth anyone on the Braves team even if it meant the whole team and paying their salaries. :p:D:p:D

[SamtheBravesFan]

Besides, Coco Crisp is just like Corey Patterson, and costs just as much. I'd even be willing to say that in a full season, Josh Anderson would put up similar stats to either of those players. Mark Kotsay won't.

[Imgran]

Besides, Coco Crisp is just like Corey Patterson, and costs just as much. I'd even be willing to say that in a full season, Josh Anderson would put up similar stats to either of those players. Mark Kotsay won't.

Not true. Coco Crisp is many things, but "just like Corey Patterson" isn't one of them. Patterson and his career .298 on base percentage doesn't deserve a starting job on any roster. Coco Crisp with his career .329 OBP is at least tolerable in a bottom of the order hitter whose primary mission is defense and not offense, and he led all outfielders in Range Factor this year.

Coco's best year was better than patterson's best year. Coco's worst year was better than Patterson's worst year. Coco's defense is better than Patterson's defense. All Patterson has on Coco is a bit of pop in his bat and a year of age.

As for Mark Kotsay, Coco Crisp has outperformed him handily each of the last 3 years, even though 2 of those years were disappointments for Coco. Offensively, I mean, even if you let the defense out of the equation. That vaunted on base ability you were talking about hasn't made it to Kotsay's stat sheet since 2004. That's why Oakland's moving him.

Why the heck didn't you just bring back Willy Harris? Heck, *he* outperformed Kotsay last year, and handily! And you can bet your bottom dollar that he wouldn't have cost you any money or Joey Devine!

And if you were going to spend high-ceiling talent, at least spend it on a young outfielder who's showing promise with his best years ahead of him. Examples of available players who fit that criterion include Joey Gathright or Brett Gardner (minor leaguer for the Yankees with solid numbers and great speed)

[Imgran]

I'll give Javy this much -- he works well with attitude problems. He and David Wells made a better tandem than any other catcher managed with Wells while they were both Red Sox.

[PureBaseballFan]

As for Mark Kotsay, Coco Crisp has outperformed him handily each of the last 3 years, even though 2 of those years were disappointments for Coco. Offensively, I mean, even if you let the defense out of the equation. That vaunted on base ability you were talking about hasn't made it to Kotsay's stat sheet since 2004. That's why Oakland's moving him.What stats are you looking at, the only year that Crisp outperformed Kotsay is 2007 and that is Kotsay coming back from back surgery. Kotsay had a better 2006 then Crisp and Crisp's best years were likely career years and he hasn't met those numbers or even come close to matching those numbers in recent years. Kotsay overall is a better offensive player then Crisp not by much but enough to make a difference.


Why the heck didn't you just bring back Willy Harris? Heck, *he* outperformed Kotsay last year, and handily! And you can bet your bottom dollar that he wouldn't have cost you any money or Joey Devine!I take it you didn't watch the Braves because Willie Harris had 2 good months and went right back to his career norms. Willie's last 3 months did this offensively.

July

BA .241 OBP .315 SLG .325 2B 3 3B 2 SB 3 CS 5 SO 18

August

BA .213 OBP .312 SLG .400 2B 5 3B 5 SB 1 CS 2 SO 19

September

BA .128 OBP .204 SLG .234 2B 2 3B 0 SB 0 CS 0 SO 12

He had a great 2 month run but he was starting to show his real "talent". Willie would likely be the worst offensive starter in MLB.


And if you were going to spend high-ceiling talent, at least spend it on a young outfielder who's showing promise with his best years ahead of him. Examples of available players who fit that criterion include Joey Gathright or Brett Gardner (minor leaguer for the Yankees with solid numbers and great speed)Devine is not a high ceiling player he is a good prospect that could become a average to good closer. His great minor numbers haven't translated yet to the Majors but I don't blame him for that but his high walk rate in a very small sampling makes his control a big question mark about what he could become.

The Braves don't want a young CFer as they already believe they have one in Jordan Schafer who some predict could be ready by July. Which is the main reason the Braves never really showed interest in Crisp who has 2 more years on his contract. Also the Braves don't need another young outfielder as that is the few position where they have a good amount of talent in the minors.

[anna]

Kotsay is just a glove as well.
Kotsay is very intelligent and alert as an outfielder. I remember one play with a man one first, where the opposing team hit what appeared to be a routine single. Kotsay alertly noticed that the runner at first was looking his way indicated that he couldn't see the flight of the ball.. Kotsay pretended he was going to catch the ball for a routine out and after he caught the ball on a bounch he threw the runner out at second. Kotsay notices these things which most outfielders miss!

I wish Mark all the best with Atlanta!:happy:

As for Devine? Some pitchers, despite their potential and talent, have a tendency to falter in high pressure situations. They put up good statistics in low pressure situations though. I suspect the Braves kept Joey out of the high pressure situations in the 2007 season and so he was lights out in most of his appearances.. I hope i'm wrong and i want this trade to benefit both teams.

[Imgran]

What stats are you looking at, the only year that Crisp outperformed Kotsay is 2007 and that is Kotsay coming back from back surgery. Kotsay had a better 2006 then Crisp and Crisp's best years were likely career years and he hasn't met those numbers or even come close to matching those numbers in recent years. Kotsay overall is a better offensive player then Crisp not by much but enough to make a difference.

Whoops! Looks like Kotsay did outperform Crisp in '06, by a whopping .017 in OPS in a year when Coco broke his finger. That's alright. Crisp only outperformed Kotsay by .054 OPS in 2005, IIRC the last year both were healthy.

Regardless, I mostly sounded off because someone tried to sell a similarity between Coco and Corey Patterson, which is patently ridiculous. Crisp isn't playing at his level offensively right now, and if he gets back up to what he's capable of he's going to be awesome.

[PureBaseballFan]

Whoops! Looks like Kotsay did outperform Crisp in '06, by a whopping .017 in OPS in a year when Coco broke his finger. That's alright. Crisp only outperformed Kotsay by .054 OPS in 2005, IIRC the last year both were healthy.

Regardless, I mostly sounded off because someone tried to sell a similarity between Coco and Corey Patterson, which is patently ridiculous. Crisp isn't playing at his level offensively right now, and if he gets back up to what he's capable of he's going to be awesome.I don't disagree that Crisp is a better offensive player then Patterson. I don't think Crisp will ever return to his two great years in Cleveland. The slip of his power numbers are surprising considering he was moving to a more hitters friendly park. Crisp is a fine CFer and I think gets a lot of crap that he shouldn't but with a choice between Kotsay and Crisp both healthy I would take Kotsay over Crisp.

[Imgran]

Not sure boston is that much of a hitters' park. The Monster thing is pretty overrated. A few righthanded pull hitters get a big bonus but they pay for it with bad habits on the road and the Monster takes a few line drive screamers and turns them from HR's into doubles or even singles, and any lefty has a pretty significant amount of space in right center to cope with. Also it's 420 to dead center even if the corners are close, compatred to 400 in Cleveland. (the famous Triangle).

The Coco trade was bad because Crisp doesn't play Boston's game. He's a square peg in the Red Sox' station-to-station power based philosophy. It wasn't obvious by the numbers but looking at his style of play and his preference for contact over discipline, he should never have been in Boston. A run and gun small ball team will get great things out of Coco.

[Extra Innings]

Maybe Kotsay can perform like JD Drew did during his pit stop in '04.