All Time Draft Round Two DRAFT PAGE. [Archive]

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ChrisLDuncan

01-10-2008, 05:53 PM

This thread is for DRAFTING ONLY. Please have discussion in the "anyone interested in a rematch" thread. The last thread has lots of questions and debates about whether we will have one league or two, the people have spoken and it's one league of 14 people. We are selecting players based on their five year peaks, however due to the shortage of relievers we will be selecting relievers based on their best three year peaks. You can select any five year peak from a player that you wish to, same goes for relievers except a three year peak. Injuries during the said peak will be taken into account by the voter. For example if you have Nomar Garciaparra from 1997-2001, I will instruct voters to take into account that there is a 20% chance that Nomar will be injured. Years missed due to war service will be ignored, see the way we did Ted Williams. There will be three championships. A player's choice. where the other GMs will chose who they think is the best. A "Historical Champ" where members in the History forum will vote on who they think is the best team, and the "Value Champs" where the stats 1e 23.

I'll fix the numbering later

1. Wade Babe Ruth LF/RF
2. TSS Barry Bonds LF/RF
3. Westlake Rogers Hornsby 2B
4. Wee Willie Honus Wagner SS
5. DMF Walter Johnson SP
6. AF Ted Williams LF/RF
7. Erik Bedard Greg Maddux SP
8. PhilKid Willie Mays CF
9. ElHalo Pedro SP
10. Brett Cobb CF
11. Minstrel Mickey Mantle CF
12. Sam The Braves Fan Lou Gehrig 1B
13. ChrisLDuncan Tris Speaker CF
14. Leecemark Mike Schmidt 3B

15. Leecemark Alex Rodriguez SS
16. Chris Grover Alexander SP
17. SBTF Hank Aaron CF, LF/RF
18. Minstrel Eddie Matthews 3B
19. EB DiMaggio CF
20. EH Randy Johnson SP
21. PhilKid Lefty Grove SP
22. Brett Eddie Collins 2B
23. Astros Fan Joe Morgan - 1972-1976
24. DMF Nap Lajoie
25. Wee Willie Stan Musial 1948-1952
26. Westlake Christy Mathewson
27. TSS Mordecai Brown -1906-1910
28. Wade Sandy Koufax -1962-1966

Round Three

29. Wade Arky Vaughn - 1933-1937
30. TSS Wade Boggs - 1985-1989
31. Westlake Tom Seaver 1969-1973
32. Wee Willie Roger Clemens - 1986-1990
33. DMF Cy Young - TBD
34. AF Yogi Berra
35. Erik Bedard (From Brett) Mike Piazza 1993-1997
36. PhilKid3 Jackie Robinson 1948-1952
37. El Halo Ed Walsh 1907-1911
38. Brett (From Erik Bedard) Hal Newhouser 1944-1948?
39. Minstrel Cal Ripken Jr 1983-1987
40. Sam The Braves Fan Johan Santana 2003-2007
41. Chris Bob Feller 1939-1947
42. Leecemark Bob Gibson 1968-1972

Round 4
43. Leecemark Johnny Bench 1969-1973
44. Chris Jimmie Foxx 1932-1936
45. Sam The Braves Fan Chipper Jones 1998-2002
46. Minstrel Addie Joss
47. Brett Kevin Brown 1996-2000
48. El Halo Rod Carew 1973-1977
49. PhilKid3 Ron Santo 1963-1967
50. Erik Bedard Carl Hubbell 1932-1936
51. AF Dazzy Vance
52. Brett (from DMF) Ernie Banks 1957-1961
53. Wee Willie Charlie Gehringer 1933-1937
54. WestLake Kid Nichols 1895-1899
55. TSS Frank Thomas 1993-1997
56. Wade Mark McGwire

57. Wade Shoeless Joe Jackson
58. TSS Mell Ott 1934-1938
59. WestLake Dick Allen 1964-1968
60. Wee Willie Albert Pujols
61. DMF George Brett
62. AF Rube Waddell
63. DMF Ken Griffey JR
64. PhilKid Dan Brouthers
65. El Halo Juan Marichal
66. Erik Bedard Jeff Bagwell
67. Minstrel Curt Schilling
68. Sam The Braves Fan Billy Hamilton
69. Chris Warren Spahn
70. Leecemark Duke Snider

Round 6

71. Leecemark Willie McCovey
72. Chris Robin Roberts
73. Sam The Braves Fan Bert Blyleven
74. Minstrel John Clarkson
75. Brett Tim Raines
76. El Halo Frank Baker
77. PhilKid AMos Ruise
78. EB Rickey Henderson
79. AF Will Clark 1988-1992
80. DMF Harry Hielmann
81. Wee Willie Whitey Ford
82. Westlake Frank Robinson
83. TSS Hank Greenberg
84. DMF (From Wade) Manny Ramirez

Round 7

85. Wade Steve Carlton
87.TSS Hugie Jennings
88. Westlake George Sisler
88. Wee Willie Ed Delahanty 1893-97
89. DMF Joe Cronin
90. AF Al Rosen
91. EB Carl Yastrzemski 1966-1970
92. PhilKid Louis Boudreau
93. ElHalo Johnny Mize
94. DMF from Brett Dennis Eckersly
95. Minstrel Ralph Kiner 1947-1951
96. STBF Hoyt Wilhelm
97. Chris Edgar Martinez
98. Leecemark Dizzy Dean

99. Leecemark Craig Biggio
100. Chris Jason Giambi
101. SBTF Robin Yount
102. Minstrel Roberto Alomar 1992-1996
103. Brett Jim Edmonds
104. El Halo Mariano Rivera The Hammer of God 2002-2005
105. PhilKid3 Fergie Jenkins
106. EB Eric Gagne
107. AF Sam Crawford
108. DMF John Clarkson
109. Wee Willie Jim Palmer
110. WestLake Roy Campanella
111. TSS Mickey Cochrane
112. Wade Al Simmons

113. Wade Billy Wagner
114. TSS Ryne Sandberg
115. WestLake Willie Stargell
116. Wee Willie Gary Carter 1982-1986
117. DMF Ted Simmons
118. AF Stan Coveleski
119. EB George Davis
120. PhilKid Bill Dickey
121. EH BJ Ryan
122. Brett Lefty Gomez
123. Minstrel Gabby Hartnett
124. STBF Jeff Kent
125. Chris Rich "Goose" Gossage
126. Mark Bruce Sutter

127. Mark Wilbur Wood
128. Chris Dan Quisenberry
129. SBTF Joe Torre
130. Minstrel Vladimir Guerrero
131. Brett Ron Guidry
132. EH Hack Wilson
133. PhilKid Paul Hines
134. EB Bobby Grich
135. AF Wally Berger
136. Wade John Smoltz
137. Wee Willie Tom Glavine
138. WestLake Roberto Clemente
139. TSS Brian Giles
140. Wade Jorge Posada

141. Wade Jim Thome
142. TSS Pete Rose
143. Westlake Lary Doby
144. Wee Willie Todd Helton
145. DMF Roy Halladay
146. AF Chuck Bender
147. EB Hippo Vaughn
148. PhilKid Mike Marshall
149. EH Paul Waner
150. Brett Joe Nathan
151. Minstrel Don Mattingly
152. STBF John Hiller
153. Chris Joe Gordon
154. Mark Charlie Keller

155. Mark Brandon Webb
156. Chris Joe Sewell
157. STBF Nolan Ryan
158. Minstrel Roy Oswalt
159. Brett Francisco Rodriguez
160. EH Albert Belle
161. PhilKid Red Ruffing
162. EB Robb Nen
163. AFPee Wee Reese
164. DMF Trevor Hoffman
165. Wee Willie Ken Boyer
166. WestLake Ed Reulbach
167. TSS Eric Davis
168. Wade Heinie Groh

169. Wade Rollie Fingers
170. TSS Ivan Rodriguez
171. Westlake Ozzie Smith
172. Wee Willie Dick Radatz
173. DMF Fred McGriff
174. AF Tom Henke
175. EB Frank Howard
176. PhilKid Joe Medwick
177. El Halo Joe Wood
178. Brett Eddie Murray
179. Minstrel John Wetteland
180. STBF Jim Rice
181. Chris Roger Bresnahan
182. Mark Dwight Gooden

183. Mark Al Kaline
184. Chris Goose Gosslin
185. SBTF Phil Niekro
186. Minstrel Larry Walker
187. Brett Sparky Lyle
188. El Halo Rob Dribble
189. PhilKid Harmon Killebrew
190. Erik Bedard Carl Mays
191. AF Jeff Montgomery
192. DMF Keith Foulke
193. Wee Willie Sammy Sosa
194. Westlake Dave Steib
195. TSS Barry larkin 95-99
196. Wade Gaylord Perry 70-74

197. Wade Chuck Klein 29-33
198. TSS Jose Rijo 90-94
199. Wade (from Westlake) JJ Putz 05-07
200. Wee Willie - Red Faber
201. DMF Arthur Rhodes
202. AF Brad Lidge
203. Erik Bedard Tim Keefe
204. Philkid3 Frank Tanana
205. Traitor David Ortiz
206. Brett Paul Molitor
207. Minstrel John Franco
208. STBF Dale Murphy
209. Chris Tug McGraw
210. Mark Keith Hernandez

211. Mark Troy Percival
212. Chris Reggie Jackson
213. SBTF Raffy Palmerio
214. Minstrel Dave Riggetti
215. Brett Kevin Appier
216. EH Chris Hammond
217. PhilKid3 Lindy McDaniel
218. Erik Bedard Burgmeier
219. AF Tom Gordon
220. DMF Jose Mesa
221. WeeWillie Duane Ward
222. WestLake Octavio Dotel
223. TSS Dave Cone
224. Wade Jonathan Papelbon

225. Wade Billy Pierce
226. TSS Dan Plesac
227. WestLakeFrank Linzy
228. WeeWillie
229. DMF Mike Myers
230. AF Jeff Shaw
231. EB Hugh Duffy
232. PhilKid Jesse Burkett
234. EH Derek Lowe
235. Brett Randy Myers
236. Minstrel John Rocker
237. STBF Jim Kern
238. Chris Ellis Kinder
239. Leecemark Steve Howe

240. Leecemark Kent Tekulve
241. Chris Herb Pennock
242. STBF Sal Maglie
243. Minstrel Don Drysdale
244. Brett Thurman Munson
245. EH Elston Howard
246. Philkid Mickey Tettleton
247. EB Greg Olson
248. AF Bryan Harvey
249. DMF Steve Kline
250. Wee Willie
251. Westlake Armando Benetiz
252. TSS Latroy Hawkins
253. Wade Hank Agwire

254. Wade Francisco Cordero
255. TSS Jim Brewer?
256. Westlake Willie Hernandez
257. Wee Willie
258. DMF Mort Cooper
259. AF Ken Singleton
260. EB Scott Rolen
261. PK3 Billy Herman
262. EH Jim Horner
263. Brett Steve Farr
264. Minstrel Jay Howell
265. STBF Bob Elliot
266. Chris Lance Berkman
267. Mark Mark Eichron

268. Mark Gary Sheffield
269. Chris Stu Miller
270. STBF Joe Addcock
271. Minstrel Jeff Beck
272. Brett Babe Herman
273. EH Ernie Lombardi
274. PK3 Alan Trammel
275. EB Ugueth Urbina/B]
276. AF [B]Gene Tennace
277. DMF Javier Lopez
278. Wee Willie
279. Westlake Bill Henry
280. TSS Mike Gonzalez
281. Wade Jason Kendall

282. Wade Al Hrabrosky
283. TSS Larry Anderson
284. Westlake Damaso Marte
285. Wee Willie
286. DMF Lou Whitaker
287. AF Sal Bando
288. EB Rob Murphy
289. PK3 Kirby Puckett
290. EH Nomar Garciaparra
291. Brett Buck Ewing
292. Minstrel Jason Isringhausen
293. STBF Harry Breechan
294. Chris DEREK JETER!!!!
295. Mark Ross Barnes

296. Mark Jimmy Wynn
297. Chris Eddie Guardado
298. STBF
299. Minstrel Carlton Fisk
300. Brett Eric Plunk
301. EH Brendan Donnelly
302. PK3 Rick Augliera
303. EB King Kelly
304. AF Paul Quantirll
305. DMF Roberto Hernandez
306. Wee Willie
306. West Lake Bill Dahlen
307. TSS Tommy Bridges
308. Wade Joe Sambrito

309. Wade Mike Jackson
310. Brett Luke Appling
311. West Lake George Foster
312. Wee Willie
313. DMF
314. AF
315. PK3
316. EH
317. Brett
318. Minstrel
319. STBF
320. Chris
321. Mark

322. Mark
323. Chris
324. STBF
325. Minstrel
326. Brett
327. EH
328. PK3
339. EB
330. AF
331. DMF
332. WW*
333. Westlake
334. Brett
335. Wade

Round 25
336. Wade
337. Brett
338. Westlake
339. WW*
340. Brett
341. AF
342. Brett
343. EH
344. Wade
345. Minstrel
346. STBF*
347. Chris
348. Leecemark

Also, if we get more people there is no harm in having two all time drafts going simotaneously ;) However, it would be completely seperate from this draft, as registration is closed on this draft.

ALSO MINSTREL'S CLOCK RESET THE MINUTE THIS THREAD STARTED.

Minstrel

01-10-2008, 08:55 PM

Sorry, I didn't realize I had yanks' spot.

I'll select:

http://users.aol.com/fcas/the_mick.jpg

Mickey Mantle (1955 - 1959)

SamtheBravesFan

01-11-2008, 09:25 AM

Not a duplicate pick now:

http://img134.imageshack.us/img134/6372/lougehrigmc6.jpg

The Iron Horse or Biscuit Pants, Lou Gehrig, 1927-31

leecemark

01-11-2008, 09:27 AM

--Over 12 hours since Minstrel's pick. Do we skip over Sam and let Chris go now?

SamtheBravesFan

01-11-2008, 10:48 AM

--Over 12 hours since Minstrel's pick. Do we skip over Sam and let Chris go now?

*poke* I picked two minutes before this post. ;)

brett

01-11-2008, 11:29 AM

--Over 12 hours since Minstrel's pick. Do we skip over Sam and let Chris go now?

The clock doesn't run between 10 pm and 10 am central time anyway.

Minstrel went at 9:55 central so that's only 5 minutes to 10. Then at 10 am the clock should have started up again. That would give him until 5:55 pm central to make his pick.

Granted, we need to move faster than that to have a chance of completing the draft in a matter of months rather than years.

(I apologize. We need to restrict our discussion/questions to the other thread. I will delete this post after the next voter).

ChrisLDuncan

01-11-2008, 03:50 PM

The clock doesn't run between 10 pm and 10 am central time anyway.

Minstrel went at 9:55 central so that's only 5 minutes to 10. Then at 10 am the clock should have started up again. That would give him until 5:55 pm central to make his pick.

Granted, we need to move faster than that to have a chance of completing the draft in a matter of months rather than years.

(I apologize. We need to restrict our discussion/questions to the other thread. I will delete this post after the next voter).

Clock talk is okay.

leecemark

01-11-2008, 03:53 PM

--A pick would be even better. You're up Chris and I'll have it right back to you a couple minutes after you go.

ChrisLDuncan

01-11-2008, 03:58 PM

--A pick would be even better. You're up Chris and I'll have it right back to you a couple minutes after you go.

Yeah, yeah keep your pants on ;)

My pick is: Tris Speaker 1910-1914

http://www.baseballlibrary.com/pics/Speaker_Blair_1911.jpg

YOU'RE UP!

leecemark

01-11-2008, 04:03 PM

--With the last pick of the first round; Mike Schmidt, 3B, 1980-84,
--With the first pick of the second round; Alex Rodriguez, SS, 1999-2003

--Back to you Chris.

ChrisLDuncan

01-11-2008, 04:19 PM

Two solid picks, no pics with the picks? However, I was hoping you would make my pick a bit easier and take one of the two guys I was looking at, but nope. :eek: However, I'll take Pete Alexander 1913-1917

http://images.bleedcubbieblue.com/images/admin/alexander.jpg

SamtheBravesFan

01-11-2008, 08:03 PM

Now, for my next pick for a while:

http://img179.imageshack.us/img179/4369/hank20aaronbiography2yk3.jpg

The Hammer, Hank Aaron, 1959-1963

Minstrel

01-11-2008, 09:41 PM

I select:

http://obits.eons.com/obits/tributes/eddie_mathews/5397-1-photo.jpg

Eddie Mathews (1953-57)

brett

01-12-2008, 10:50 AM

Eril Bedard and I have switched draft positions in this round, so he is at the plate.

We also have switched our 5th round positions so I will draft 7th and he will draft 10th in the 5th round.

There is also one private contingency of the agreement.

Erik Bedard

01-12-2008, 10:59 AM

Joe DiMaggio, 1937-41

http://imagecache2.allposters.com/images/pic/PHO/AADL001_8x10-HorizontalBatting~Joe-DiMaggio-Posters.jpg

ElHalo

01-12-2008, 11:41 AM

Ah, thank you. Don't know what I would have done if he wasn't available here.

http://www.astrosdaily.com/files/gallery/Johnson_Randy_01.jpg

Randy Johnson, 1998-2002.

philkid3

01-12-2008, 03:05 PM

Robert Moses "Lefty" Grove (1928-1932)

http://pages.prodigy.net/kdi/LeftyGrove.jpg

brett

01-12-2008, 05:35 PM

Eddie Collins '09-'13

AstrosFan

01-12-2008, 07:31 PM

Joe Morgan 1972-76

http://www.wildfalconsolutions.net/Joe%20Morgan.jpg

Disgruntaledmarinerfan

01-12-2008, 10:25 PM

Nap Lajoie
34129

Wee Willie

01-13-2008, 02:28 AM

Stan Musial, 1948-52

leecemark

01-13-2008, 08:02 AM

--Great pick WW. I was shocked that Stan the Man slid so far.

brett

01-13-2008, 08:16 AM

--Great pick WW. I was shocked that Stan the Man slid so far.

The hard part is picking his years. '43-'47 were probably his best relative years but against inferior competition. By the way, what are the years for Lajoie?

Wade8813

01-13-2008, 08:39 AM

DMF's gonna be busy for a few hours, so he won't decide the years for Lajoie yet.

brett

01-13-2008, 03:38 PM

Westlake has until 6:00 pm. Anyone hear from him?

Wade8813

01-13-2008, 03:44 PM

--Great pick WW. I was shocked that Stan the Man slid so far. Not really. Good arguments can be made for everyone taken before him (also, I'm sure some people didn't realize he qualifies at CF).

The Splendid Splinter

01-13-2008, 05:02 PM

well... Westlake clock is up so it's my turn.

Since pitching is going quickly here, i better grab my ace who got the 4th best peak (in terms of ERA+) out of the ones ive searched so far.

I select Mordecai "Three Finger Brown"... 1906-1910

Wade8813

01-13-2008, 05:07 PM

Of course, the guy I was going to take...

I'll take Sandy Koufax '62-66, and Arky Vaughan '33-37.

The Splendid Splinter

01-13-2008, 05:16 PM

man... i cant figure which player i want to get but im going with what i would want on my team and as a leadoff hitter... might comes as a surprise and maybe too early but 3B position is getting weak and this guy is solid on offense and defense...

ill take Wade Boggs... 1985-1989

Wade8813

01-13-2008, 05:17 PM

I was condsidering him as well. There aren't a huge number of 3Bmen. Of course, there's even less SS, so that's what I went with. Although it feels weird that I picked someone with my third pick who I'm hoping will be near the bottom of my lineup...

Westlake

01-13-2008, 08:34 PM

Sorry about missing my pick. I was watching my hopes and dreams of a superbowl go down the crapper.

My picks are Randy Johnson (1998-2002) and Christy Mathewson (1908-1912).

ElHalo

01-13-2008, 08:36 PM

My picks are Randy Johnson (1998-2002) and Christy Mathewson (1908-1912).

One out of two ain't bad. Johnson's on my team. Matthewson's a fantastic pick this late.

brett

01-13-2008, 09:20 PM

Sorry about missing my pick. I was watching my hopes and dreams of a superbowl go down the crapper.

My picks are Randy Johnson (1998-2002) and Christy Mathewson (1908-1912).

You need to pick someone else. Guys, I have no problem letting Westlake pick from guys who are left if it keeps the league intact, but anyone else who picks in order before his round three pick should get to keep that pick.

And Mathewson was on my VERY short list, probably my next pick if he was left by any chance. Hopefully you wont take my other priority pick.

You need to get the commish to give a ruling. He may let you keep Mathewson only because everyone agreed to skip you in round 2, or he may let you pick again from remaining players. You should at least get to keep Mathewson though if you are staying in.

Wade8813

01-13-2008, 09:26 PM

Of course. Any picks made before Westlake makes a pick are final.

leecemark

01-13-2008, 09:30 PM

leecemark

01-13-2008, 09:32 PM

--Wee Willie is on the clock.

Wade8813

01-13-2008, 09:43 PM

But his clock paused a half hour ago, right? And then he gets another 4 hours tomorrow, I believe.

Wee Willie

01-13-2008, 10:06 PM

Roger Clemens (likely the clean one), 1986-1990

Disgruntaledmarinerfan

01-13-2008, 10:28 PM

I'll take Cy Young

34147
(Years to be selected in near future)

ChrisLDuncan

01-13-2008, 10:42 PM

Sorry about missing my pick. I was watching my hopes and dreams of a superbowl go down the crapper.

You and me both :mad::mad::noidea

brett

01-14-2008, 06:35 AM

--I don't understand what you are saying Brett? If someone misses their turn they don't lose their pick. They simply make it up when they check in. Mathewson is a valid pick, but you can't go back and claim someone picked while you were missing in action. Westlake, you do have another makeup pick coming since Johnson off the board before you picked him.

He came back and attempted to make 2 picks, his round 2 and round 3 pick, but one of them was already taken. What I'm saying is that we already started the clock of the next guy in round 3 so he could pick someone else, but the draft would not wait for his pick. He still can pick someone in round 3 right?

Actually I didn't know that he would be allowed to go back to the previous round, but its certainly fair. By the way, he could have taken Mathewson and Clemens or Young, but you guys justifyably grabbed them.

With Mathewson, Clemens and Young gone, I think it gets real interesting with pitchers. I'm going to move to the discussion page.

leecemark

01-14-2008, 06:42 AM

Wade8813

01-14-2008, 08:18 AM

--I was kind of hoping all the bad press Clemens has gotten recently would cause him to drop all the way to the end of the 3rd when I get another shot. No such luck though. Being able to take 2 at once is nice, but this long wait between each pair is painfull.You're telling me...
:yawn:

He came back and attempted to make 2 picks, his round 2 and round 3 pick, but one of them was already taken. What I'm saying is that we already started the clock of the next guy in round 3 so he could pick someone else, but the draft would not wait for his pick. He still can pick someone in round 3 right?

Actually I didn't know that he would be allowed to go back to the previous round, but its certainly fair. By the way, he could have taken Mathewson and Clemens or Young, but you guys justifyably grabbed them.If he had to miss a pick this early, he'd probably just want to drop out. It's a ridiculous disadvantage. He's already stuck with a later pick - penalizing him more seems useless.

ElHalo

01-14-2008, 09:34 AM

Actually I didn't know that he would be allowed to go back to the previous round, but its certainly fair. By the way, he could have taken Mathewson and Clemens or Young, but you guys justifyably grabbed them.

He's not "going back to the previous round." The way we've always done it with these drafts is that a guy who misses a pick can make it up at any time later, but he obviously can't take any of the guys who've been taken in the interim. If he goes on vacation for a few days and misses three rounds, when he gets back he can take three guys at once, as long as they haven't been taken by anybody else. Once you miss one round, though, you don't get a new clock the next time your name comes up; the guy after you in the order is automatically on the clock.

brett

01-14-2008, 10:53 AM

He's not "going back to the previous round." The way we've always done it with these drafts is that a guy who misses a pick can make it up at any time later, but he obviously can't take any of the guys who've been taken in the interim. If he goes on vacation for a few days and misses three rounds, when he gets back he can take three guys at once, as long as they haven't been taken by anybody else. Once you miss one round, though, you don't get a new clock the next time your name comes up; the guy after you in the order is automatically on the clock.

Thanks.

Too bad, if he had grabbed Mathewson and Clemens to go with Hornsby, I think it would be quite a team at this point.

Erik Bedard

01-14-2008, 11:00 AM

Brett, since the "private contingency" didn't get fulfilled, do you get my third pick or my fifth?

brett

01-14-2008, 02:24 PM

Brett, since the "private contingency" didn't get fulfilled, do you get my third pick or my fifth?

The privacy contingency isn't the issue but YOU ARE CORRECT. You need to draft in spot 7 this round and I in spot 10.

Chris, I will draft 7th in the 5th round and EB 10th in the 5th round.

ElHalo

01-14-2008, 02:37 PM

The privacy contingency isn't the issue but YOU ARE CORRECT. You need to draft in spot 7 this round and I in spot 10.

Which he should probalby do then, since he's now been on the clock for six hours. AF's time expired at 10 AM CST this morning (his eight hours ran out at 7:30 CST, but your time can't expire between 10 and 10, so his clock expired at 10 AM).

Wade8813

01-14-2008, 02:53 PM

I think you're wrong. The clock doesn't just not expire between 10 and 10 CST, it's paused entirely. AF's clock should expire in 2 hours.

ElHalo

01-14-2008, 03:26 PM

I think you're wrong. The clock doesn't just not expire between 10 and 10 CST, it's paused entirely. AF's clock should expire in 2 hours.

We've never done it that way. I'm not the commissioner, so it's not my call, but I think that's absolutely ridiculous. The whole point of having the pause at night is so that nobody's time can run out when they're sleeping... That purpose is entirely served if the guy's clock can't expire during the 10-10 window, but there's no point whatsoever in just saying his clock doesn't run during that time. If somebody posts at 9:59, how on earth is it fair that the next guy has 20 hours to make his pick? That'll make the draft drag on FOREVER. I personally am very, very against that idea.

Wade8813

01-14-2008, 03:47 PM

Actually, that's how we did it last time. Of course, that draft did take too long.

Personally, I think I'd rather it worked your way, but I don't think it does. But I could be wrong.

ChrisLDuncan

01-14-2008, 03:49 PM

If somebody posts at 9:59, how on earth is it fair that the next guy has 20 hours to make his pick? That'll make the draft drag on FOREVER. I personally am very, very against that idea.

I don't see that senario happening. However, if it does I'm sure the next drafter has a good reason for it. It's not even five yet, so Astros Fan probably hasn't even gotten off of work yet. The rule is there because usually people can go to bed at a decent hour, and not have to worry about their pick while they're sleeping. There is also the case of people who have to work, I think people should be able to live their everyday lives without the draft getting in the way.

ChrisLDuncan

01-14-2008, 03:51 PM

I think you're wrong. The clock doesn't just not expire between 10 and 10 CST, it's paused entirely. AF's clock should expire in 2 hours.

AF's clock expires at six central. Give him some time to get home from work.

Wee Willie

01-14-2008, 05:28 PM

This is the second day in a row where things have been held up for an extended length of time. I realize everyone has other things going on, but I think if someone has decided to take part in this, then they need to keep up with it - at least a couple of times a day, minimum. It's not fair to the rest of us who are making the commitment and still manage to get our other work done throughout the day.

If someone expects to be gone for an extended period, please PM your pick (with first choice, second choice, etc) to the commissioner or someone who will pick after you. Also, there really is no excuse for picking someone who's already been picked. Please check the draft thread first, and hopefully that won't happen again (at least until the later rounds).

brett

01-14-2008, 05:36 PM

Eric Bedard got a message from me specifically stating that he was up #7 in round 3 and that he was up. He answered this message 30 minutes ago.

ChrisLDuncan

01-14-2008, 05:41 PM

I just sent AF a message, however since he is a grown man who has a real job...there is the chance that it's just him dragging ass on a monday. Try to give him a little bit more time. :happy::twocents:

leecemark

01-14-2008, 05:50 PM

We've never done it that way. I'm not the commissioner, so it's not my call, but I think that's absolutely ridiculous. The whole point of having the pause at night is so that nobody's time can run out when they're sleeping... That purpose is entirely served if the guy's clock can't expire during the 10-10 window, but there's no point whatsoever in just saying his clock doesn't run during that time. If somebody posts at 9:59, how on earth is it fair that the next guy has 20 hours to make his pick? That'll make the draft drag on FOREVER. I personally am very, very against that idea.

--I agree with ElHalo. I'm fine with the clock not expiring during that window, but not with time standing still. This draft is going to take long enough without that.

Westlake

01-14-2008, 06:02 PM

Oh well, I missed up on the Johnson thing and missed out on Young (i still didnt want clemens). But this guy's 5 year stretch was good too, pretty close to being equal to Young's IMO (with Young having better IP).

Tom Seaver 1969-1973

brett

01-14-2008, 06:21 PM

--I agree with ElHalo. I'm fine with the clock not expiring during that window, but not with time standing still. This draft is going to take long enough without that.

If people draft after 10 pm, and advance the draft, you can't expect someone to wake up the next morning and know that they are up immediately.

I think though that everyone should check in once at 10 pm. If they are up, they should be able to draft by 10:00 am the next morning, but if that guy drafts at 11:00 pm, you can't assume that the next guy will be aware of it until after work hours.

If everyone could get on line for 1 hour we could do a round a day.

Or everyone could be assigned a draft hour for the day between 6:00 am and 12:00 pm with time zones extending that and you could get through a round per day.

Erik Bedard

01-14-2008, 07:18 PM

Lightning rounds are a good way to speed up a draft.

Anyway, I'll take Mike Piazza, probably 1993-97.

http://www-scf.usc.edu/~thier/Pics/piazza.jpg

Wade8813

01-14-2008, 07:30 PM

I was wondering when the first catcher would be taken...

leecemark

01-14-2008, 07:39 PM

philkid3

01-14-2008, 08:08 PM

Erik Bedard

01-14-2008, 08:09 PM

I'm with Mark, Phil, and EH.

philkid3

01-14-2008, 08:13 PM

Jack Roosevelt Robinson (1948-1952)

http://www.genealogydone4u.com/Jackie%20Robinson-small.jpg

Wade8813

01-14-2008, 08:15 PM

I didn't expect him to go so soon, but I'm not really surprised, since the important positions are disappearing quickly (with the exception of catcher).

brett

01-14-2008, 08:23 PM

--I'm okay with a clock not starting during the 10-10 window, but not with an open clock being extended by those 10 hours. If your time starts prior to 10PM then you should either pick first thing in the morning or let the next person go and catch up later. A lighting round or several would be good too.

Agreed. If someone goes after hours though, the next time should start at 10:00 am. Personally, I can always check at 8:30, 12:30, and by 6:00 pm but it just seems fair.

brett

01-14-2008, 08:25 PM

ElHalo, if you get in by 10:00 I'll get mine in tonight as well.

brett

01-14-2008, 08:26 PM

I didn't expect him to go so soon, but I'm not really surprised, since the important positions are disappearing quickly (with the exception of catcher).

His peak is great. I think that second base is suprisingly deep though.

ElHalo

01-14-2008, 08:31 PM

http://baseball-fever.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=23446&d=1178259184
Ed Walsh, 1907-1911.

philkid3

01-14-2008, 08:39 PM

I personally find Robinson to be very underrated, but I guess I might be alone.

ElHalo

01-14-2008, 08:40 PM

I personally find Robinson to be very underrated, but I guess I might be alone.

He was on my short list; there was him and one other 2Bman I was going back and forth between. Solid pick.

Wee Willie

01-14-2008, 08:44 PM

brett

01-14-2008, 08:45 PM

Ed Walsh, 1907-1911.

Excellent choice. No #3 starter will come close.

Now for me, I'm sure this pick will be a bit controversial but:

1) He has the highest 5 year WARP I, II AND III score of any pitcher since the introduction of the live ball.

2) Tops Clemens in 5 year ERA+ (164 to 162) and innings per season (290ish to 250ish).

3) Finished 1, 1 and 2 in the MVP race over a three year period.

Hal Newhouser

Yes 2 years were during the war, but WARP III already takes that into consideration with the league quality adjustment.

I'm interested for opinions. He doesn't get the name recognition of guys with longer careers, but for 5 years: '44-'48 he was pretty good.

Wade8813

01-14-2008, 08:51 PM

I have him high on my list, but since I don't look at WARP, I don't have him as high as you do. I have him somewhere in the top 20-30 SP for our purposes - haven't nailed it down yet (and now I won't, since he's gone...).

ElHalo

01-14-2008, 09:01 PM

Hal Newhouser

Fantastic pick this late in the draft. If he'd put up the exact same numbers in, say, 47-51 that he put up in 44-48, he'd rate higher, but as it is I have him as either the third or fourth best lefty, behind Randy Johnson and Lefty Grove and about even with Koufax.

philkid3

01-14-2008, 09:03 PM

I believe BP had Hal Newhouser figured as the best player in baseball for a few years at one point.

. . . they had J-Rob, too. ;)

brett

01-14-2008, 09:11 PM

I personally find Robinson to be very underrated, but I guess I might be alone.

No, I just thought he would be a sleeper. Again, for the purposes of 5 year peak, he is ideal.

Westlake

01-14-2008, 09:39 PM

Hey Chris, you put me down for (pitcher) but I picked Tom Seaver.

ChrisLDuncan

01-14-2008, 10:06 PM

Fixed if I screw anything up just PM me, and I'll fix it. Don't like talking about unpicked players.

Minstrel

01-14-2008, 10:38 PM

I select

http://i.a.cnn.net/si/2007/writers/the_bonus/07/27/ripken/t1_cal_ripken.jpg

Cal Ripken Jr. 1983-1987

SamtheBravesFan

01-15-2008, 02:47 PM

I know this is going to seem bonkers, but I can't think of anyone that much better:

http://img151.imageshack.us/img151/4143/p1santanaapxp2.jpg

Johan Santana, 2003-07

Wade8813

01-15-2008, 02:56 PM

I know this is going to seem bonkers Not at all. A good pick.

brett

01-15-2008, 03:19 PM

I know this is going to seem bonkers, but I can't think of anyone that much better:

http://img151.imageshack.us/img151/4143/p1santanaapxp2.jpg

Johan Santana, 2003-07

I thought he'd last another round as well and was hoping to add him. He actually has a close 5 year warp than Randy Johnson:confused: (48.4 to 52.5 WIII) but its largely because he doesn't have the negative warp for hitting every year.

By the way, I am not a big WARP fan, but any attempt to evaluate pitchers without considering their defense is flawed.

Another flaw I've found is that NL pitchers currently pick up about -1 WARP as hitters each year compared to AL pitchers, BUT also get factored down in WARP III because the AL has the DH which is considered to make it more competitive, so an AL pitcher moves to the NL he drops 1 warp for doing MORE (hitting) AND he gets less of an LQ boost.

SamtheBravesFan

01-15-2008, 04:43 PM

Not at all. A good pick.

Really? Well, good for me, then. :)

ElHalo

01-15-2008, 08:40 PM

Is Chris around anywhere?

leecemark

01-15-2008, 10:15 PM

--He is online now. Chris, I'm going to be checking out shortly. If you get your pick in quick, I've got mine ready and will get it back to you. Not much time left though or it will be morning before we get moving again.

Wade8813

01-15-2008, 10:20 PM

You could PM your pick to me, if you have to go (this goes for anyone)

ChrisLDuncan

01-15-2008, 10:27 PM

I'm going
Feller 1939-1947

http://tiger.towson.edu/~rhurd1/images/Feller%20action%208x10.jpg

leecemark

01-15-2008, 10:33 PM

ChrisLDuncan

01-15-2008, 10:38 PM

Jimmie Foxx

http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/7/79/Time-magazine-cover-jimmie-foxx.jpg

ElHalo

01-16-2008, 02:53 AM

Jimmie Foxx

Drat. .

Wade8813

01-16-2008, 02:58 AM

You know, you can't pick all pitchers and still expect to get the best hitters... :rolleyes:

ElHalo

01-16-2008, 03:03 AM

You know, you can't pick all pitchers and still expect to get the best hitters... :rolleyes:

I was very surprised that he in particular had lasted this long, and was really hoping to sneak away with him. Oh well.

leecemark

01-16-2008, 07:17 AM

--Foxx was a good pick this late but there are ALOT of firstbasemen nearly as good. That will probably be one of the last spots I fill. Actually there are still 3 players I rank ahead of Foxx still left on the board and more I'd have taken ahead of him due to positional issues.

brett

01-16-2008, 08:35 AM

--With the last pick of the 3rd round the Wolverines take [C Johnny Bench (1969-73). Bench was on our short list in the first round and we are very pleased to have the consensus #1 catcher of all time still available.
--With the first pick of the 4th round we take SP Bob Gibson (1968-72). We're conifdent Bob will hold his own against the other aces around the league. he certainly gets his 4 years off to a great start!

With Gibson and Feller gone, well, I guess it makes things simpler. Feller was more of an inning eater so I had him lower. Foxx was the best offensive force left, but there are guys who are similar. Those 3 were on my list of 5 probably. Actually I'm not sure I would have taken Feller this round.

SamtheBravesFan

01-16-2008, 02:13 PM

http://img182.imageshack.us/img182/9712/ajonesirx0.jpg

Chipper Jones, 1998-2002

brett

01-16-2008, 03:02 PM

http://img182.imageshack.us/img182/9712/ajonesirx0.jpg

Chipper Jones, 1998-2002

Another guy who was on my radar, but I hoped would drop.

Peak + 3B = Chipper Jones

Minstrel

01-16-2008, 03:10 PM

I select:

http://www-scf.usc.edu/~thier/Pics/piazza.jpg

Mike Piazza (1993 - 1997)

ElHalo

01-16-2008, 03:20 PM

I select:

Mike Piazza (1993 - 1997)

He's already taken. Please make another selection.

brett

01-16-2008, 03:45 PM

brett

01-16-2008, 03:48 PM

ElHalo

01-16-2008, 03:52 PM

http://members.socket.net/~wkkdl/redsox_files/image007.jpg
Rod Carew, 1973-1977.

ElHalo

01-16-2008, 03:57 PM

Kevin Brown '96-'00.

I think the best pitcher left, or one of two.

162 ERA+ is 8th best for 5 years in 1900s+ and over 240 innings per season in the late 90s is a true workhorse.

ElHalo, you can have the "other" pitcher if you want him.

I agree that Brown was the best pitcher left; I'd have probably taken him over the other guy you're thinking of. His peak was overlooked, but extraordinary. There's a lot of guys who've already been taken who I think I would have preferred Brown to.

However, my total lack of position players was beginning to concern me. 2B was the one position where I didn't have any real solid contingency plans if my guy was taken, so I figured I should get that one out of the way.

brett

01-16-2008, 04:12 PM

I agree that Brown was the best pitcher left; I'd have probably taken him over the other guy you're thinking of. His peak was overlooked, but extraordinary. There's a lot of guys who've already been taken who I think I would have preferred Brown to.

However, my total lack of position players was beginning to concern me. 2B was the one position where I didn't have any real solid contingency plans if my guy was taken, so I figured I should get that one out of the way.
For Carew:
Its a great 5 year peak-I think better than another second baseman who I thought you had high on your list. Would you draft Carew above the other guy in the real (hypothetical) world?

ElHalo

01-16-2008, 04:19 PM

For Carew:
Its a great 5 year peak-I think better than another second baseman who I thought you had high on your list. Would you draft Carew above the other guy in the real (hypothetical) world?

No, not in a million years. That other guy was much better at all aspects of the game than Carew, in my opinion (except baserunning). But the five year peak rule makes things go a bit differently from a real (hypothetical) world. In this world, there's at least one position (and possibly two) where I believe the number one player at the position still hasn't been taken. And I never would have taken Ed Walsh so early.

brett

01-16-2008, 04:27 PM

In this world, there's at least one position (and possibly two) where I believe the number one player at the position still hasn't been taken. And I never would have taken Ed Walsh so early.

Which world?

ElHalo

01-16-2008, 04:37 PM

Which world?

The five-year world. It's a very different animal. That other guy I didn't take ahead of Carew I consider to be one of the top 25 or 30 players of all time, but I had to pass because he didn't have a five years stretch that stood out quite as much. Similarly, there's some absolutely astounding five year guys who don't quite rate as high on people's radars...

Westlake

01-16-2008, 04:48 PM

It's sad that we all know each other's opinions so well that most of us probably know exactly who you two are talking about. I know I sure do. One of the most underrated players ever, IMO.

I still have to sweat out 5 or 6 people picking in front of me hoping they dont take my guy.

philkid3

01-16-2008, 06:13 PM

I'm here and I'm putting some thought in it.

Erik Bedard

01-16-2008, 06:22 PM

I select:

http://www-scf.usc.edu/~thier/Pics/piazza.jpg

Mike Piazza (1993 - 1997)

Exact same picture and years, too.

philkid3

01-16-2008, 06:23 PM

Ronald Edward Santo (1963-67)

http://www.baseball-almanac.com/players/pics/ron_santo_autograph.jpg

Erik Bedard

01-16-2008, 06:27 PM

Four-letter word. I really was hoping nobody would take him. Had the picture all picked out and everything.

brett

01-16-2008, 06:32 PM

Four-letter word. I really was hoping nobody would take him. Had the picture all picked out and everything.

Eric check your PM

ElHalo

01-16-2008, 06:33 PM

Ronald Edward Santo (1963-67)

http://www.baseball-almanac.com/players/pics/ron_santo_autograph.jpg

Wow. Never seen a picture of him before, and really didn't think he looked like that. I was picturing more... Dick Allen-like, maybe?

Erik Bedard

01-16-2008, 06:37 PM

Carl Hubbell, 1932-36.

http://cache.viewimages.com/xc/2695542.jpg?v=1&c=ViewImages&k=2&d=65DF17A14A6B244A346D84F20238BB89A55A1E4F32AD3138

brett

01-16-2008, 06:39 PM

Carl Hubbell, 1932-36.

Great pick. I think the consensus next pitcher. Not the guy I wanted to take (but I have two pitchers already)

Wade8813

01-16-2008, 06:39 PM

AF is skipped again, so it's DMF's turn, correct?

brett

01-16-2008, 06:43 PM

Since Astrofan missed last round, DMF is up and on the clock.

DMF if you are out there, I'll give you my 5th (#7 from EB) and 7th round (#10) for your 4th and 28th.

ElHalo

01-16-2008, 06:46 PM

Carl Hubbell, 1932-36.

Yeah, best guy on the board. And a lefty, too!

I was kind of hoping (while knowing it was foolish, of course) that he'd fall back to me, so I could have two specialty pitchers (spitter and screwball) to go along with my aces, really throw off opposing teams. Maybe I'll take a knuckleballer for my fifth starter.

brett

01-16-2008, 06:52 PM

I just want to state that I did not give EB a tip about Hubbell. I offered him a trade. Someone mentioned Hubbell so I want to assure them that I did not tip anyone off.

Erik Bedard

01-16-2008, 06:53 PM

I can verify that.

Wade8813

01-16-2008, 06:57 PM

DMF if you are out there, I'll give you my 5th (#7 from EB) and 7th round (#10) for your 4th and 28th.
Umm... isn't this draft only 25 rounds? How would he give you his 28th pick?

brett

01-16-2008, 07:02 PM

Umm... isn't this draft only 25 rounds? How would he give you his 28th pick?
I thought it was 30 round. In that case

I am offering DMF, my round 5 #7 and my round 7 #10 for his round 4 #9 and his round 25 #5 (or any spot lower he can acquire by round 25.)

Or astrofan or minstrel can make similar deal if I get the pick in time to make my choice.

Wade8813

01-16-2008, 07:04 PM

I'm 95% sure it's 25 rounds. DMF will be on soon, and I believe he'll do the deal.

Disgruntaledmarinerfan

01-16-2008, 07:07 PM

I thought it was 30 round. In that case

I am offering DMF, my round 5 #7 and my round 7 #10 for his round 4 #9 and his round 25 #5 (or any spot lower he can acquire by round 25.)

Or astrofan or minstrel can make similar deal if I get the pick in time to make my choice.

I accept the deal.

brett

01-16-2008, 07:13 PM

Deal! Hope it helps you.

Ernie Banks '57-'61

Wade8813

01-16-2008, 07:14 PM

Wow, the irony is amazing. That's who he was planning to take...

ChrisLDuncan

01-16-2008, 07:21 PM

It's 25 rounds, and damn someone needs to put out an AMBER alert for Astros Fan.

Wade8813

01-16-2008, 07:23 PM

Hey, once he's been skipped once, at least we don't wait for him any more.

ChrisLDuncan

01-16-2008, 07:25 PM

Hey, once he's been skipped once, at least we don't wait for him any more.

Well at a certian point, we need to decide what to do about this. I don't want to drop him out right, can a mod tell me when the last time he signed on was?

ChrisLDuncan

01-16-2008, 07:29 PM

Wee Willie, you are up I didn't know if he saw that Brett picked. Also PLEASE ADD A PIC OF YOUR PLAYER'S WITH THE SELECTION, for one it stands out and shows people that a player has been picked and two it's cool to see :)

Wee Willie

01-16-2008, 07:29 PM

I got my Mechanical Man!

Charlie Gehringer, 1933-37.

I'll get a pic up in a minute..

ChrisLDuncan

01-16-2008, 07:30 PM

Great pick, however like I said please add a pic...I've almost missed a few picks myself.

leecemark

01-16-2008, 07:34 PM

Well at a certian point, we need to decide what to do about this. I don't want to drop him out right, can a mod tell me when the last time he signed on was?

---you don't have to be amod to check that. just check his public profile. he was last logged in at 245am yesterday.

brett

01-16-2008, 07:49 PM

Remember that DMF is taking both his and my picks in rounds 5 AND 7 and I have his 25 rounder.

By the way, I took Banks when I noticed how high his defensive ratings were at SS for that 5 year period. BBPro has him as +56 fielding runs above average for a shortstop for those years (plus 4 40 home run seasons) and a 62.9 WARP III, (Wagner was 68.0 and Vaughan 64.6), and 146 OPS+

ChrisLDuncan

01-16-2008, 07:52 PM

I didn't think Banks would be that skinny...

ChrisLDuncan

01-16-2008, 07:53 PM

---you don't have to be amod to check that. just check his public profile. he was last logged in at 245am yesterday.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_cTa5d1yKt8

:dance

Can someone send him an Email or something?

brett

01-16-2008, 07:54 PM

Chris, also that is the #7 pick for DMF in round 5 that I got from EB. EB has my #10 pick in round 5.

brett

01-16-2008, 07:55 PM

I didn't think Banks would be that skinny...

It's the hands Chris, look at the hands!

Also Banks WARP III of 62.9 tops Ripkens chosen years of 60.0

ChrisLDuncan

01-16-2008, 07:56 PM

It's the hands Chris, look at the hands!

He could choke out Andre the Giant with those things.

philkid3

01-16-2008, 08:07 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_cTa5d1yKt8

:dance

Can someone send him an Email or something?

I prefer this. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mo4MJUpX8fo&feature=related)

Westlake

01-16-2008, 08:15 PM

Carl Hubbell, 1932-36.

http://cache.viewimages.com/xc/2695542.jpg?v=1&c=ViewImages&k=2&d=65DF17A14A6B244A346D84F20238BB89A55A1E4F32AD3138

Crap. I get back from my UDems meeting and THIS is what im greeted with. :(

The Splendid Splinter

01-16-2008, 08:21 PM

Crap. I get back from my UDems meeting and THIS is what im greeted with. :(

at least you didnt have 3 out of 4 guys picked already that I was looking at and Evan, you'll probably get my 4th pick... if that happens, i'm screwed...

also evan... it's your pick since you're after wee willie...

Wade8813

01-16-2008, 08:23 PM

Yeah, yeah - everyone gets their picks stolen (just ask CLD).

The Splendid Splinter

01-16-2008, 08:25 PM

Yeah, yeah - everyone gets their picks stolen (just ask CLD).

lol yeah i was looking at hubbell, banks, and gehringer for this round. figured i would have a good chance of landing one of them.

Westlake

01-16-2008, 08:33 PM

Kid Nichols 1895-1899
http://baseball-fever.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=26238&d=1184436307

The Splendid Splinter

01-16-2008, 08:41 PM

umm... for my DH and hitting behind Barry Bonds in the 4 spot...

The Big Hurt... (1993-1997)

Wade8813

01-16-2008, 08:49 PM

Nice. I was thinking about him.

My strategy's changed entirely, but oh well. I'll take Mark McGwire and Joe Jackson.

34228 34229

I like the way my lineup is turning out...

ChrisLDuncan

01-16-2008, 08:49 PM

umm... for my DH and hitting behind Barry Bonds in the 4 spot...

The Big Hurt... (1993-1997)

UGHHHHH...Not cool.

philkid3

01-16-2008, 09:00 PM

Crap. I get back from my UDems meeting and THIS is what im greeted with. :(

That's what you get for going to a UDems meeting. ;)

Wade8813

01-16-2008, 09:02 PM

I forgot my years - I want 1995-1999 for McGwire, and 1911-15 for Jackson.

The Splendid Splinter

01-16-2008, 09:03 PM

UGHHHHH...Not cool.

wait for my next pick who is batting behind Thomas for the 5th spot... going LH-RH-LH in the 3-4-5 spot...

Mel Ott... (1934-1938)

Minstrel

01-16-2008, 09:08 PM

I noticed that Minstrel took Piazza who is already taken. I consider Brown off limits, as well as anyone who goes in the interum. Otherwise people could post an invalid pick and use it to get a look at the top choices of the next guys and really screw stuff up.

And no offense, but its not my job to make sure your picks have not already been drafted.

Yes, but ElHalo pointed it out right after, before you selected. Thus, you didn't really have to "make sure."

So, if you make a mistake, you forfeit your eight hours? I wasn't aware of that. Was that mentioned anywhere?

In any case, so many players have gone off the board in the meantime, a simple mistake has turned into a fairly massive handicap. I think I'll withdraw. It's not pique or upset...I just don't feel like working from such a disadvantage.

Wade8813

01-16-2008, 09:09 PM

Do you plan to have Ott in your OF, or at 3B?

The Splendid Splinter

01-16-2008, 09:13 PM

Do you plan to have Ott in your OF, or at 3B?

RF... I got Boggs at 3B...

Wade8813

01-16-2008, 09:14 PM

Westlake

01-16-2008, 09:17 PM

I'll take my 3B, Dick Allen (1964-1968).

http://img72.imageshack.us/img72/5469/dpmaysstdpp5.jpg

ChrisLDuncan

01-16-2008, 09:22 PM

I'll take my 3B, Dick Allen (1964-1968).

http://img72.imageshack.us/img72/5469/dpmaysstdpp5.jpg

See, this angers me. I was hoping he'd drop too me. Ever since Chris (538280) stopped posting he's gone under the radar here. Great pick though.

brett

01-16-2008, 09:34 PM

Yes, but ElHalo pointed it out right after, before you selected. Thus, you didn't really have to "make sure."

So, if you make a mistake, you forfeit your eight hours? I wasn't aware of that. Was that mentioned anywhere?

In any case, so many players have gone off the board in the meantime, a simple mistake has turned into a fairly massive handicap. I think I'll withdraw. It's not pique or upset...I just don't feel like working from such a disadvantage.

I have never done this before, and I figured that it was the standard around here like skipping a guy who was absent for the last round. And yes, it already happened when Randy Johnson was picked a second time in proper sequence. I thought my clock was running and didn't exactly want to have to check in early tomorrow. Plus consider that 11 people who drafted would have had to wait until tomorrow. I could have sat there for almost 7 hours until 10:00 PM and made everyone else wait until tomorrow. That turns a 1 day round into a 2 day round (if we're lucky). And I offered you a trade of your missed pick for my round 5 and round 7 picks several hours later.

Appeal to the commissioner, but he was the one posting picks. I for one think that it is reasonable to expect people to scan the draft picks for 2 minutes before picking.

Look guys, to me its clear cut. You can't come back and pick someone without even looking at the picks that have been made since you were here last time-that's obvious.

leecemark

01-16-2008, 09:34 PM

Wade8813

01-16-2008, 09:41 PM

leecemark

01-16-2008, 09:51 PM

Minstrel

01-16-2008, 09:53 PM

Appeal to the commissioner, but he was the one posting picks.

I'm not asking for a reversal. Appeal for what?

I for one think that it is reasonable to expect people to scan the draft picks for 2 minutes before picking.

Look guys, to me its clear cut. You can't come back and pick someone without even looking at the picks that have been made since you were here last time-that's obvious.

Yes, thanks. I did look, but I missed a name. You can weight that crime in your mind as heavily as you like, but it's incorrect to imply that I posted without checking.

If you'd rather bail on the other participants in the draft than suffer the consequences of your mistake that is your right. It would make me pretty reluctant to participate in another project with you though.

I'm sorry if you feel that way. I felt I was creating the least problem, as I'm not contesting anything. As Wade noted, the last time we did this, a mispick was not viewed as totally missing your window, so I was surprised. I've never slowed one of these before, and this is my first mistake, as I recall. The penalty incurred seems excessive, so the contest became quite a bit less fun.

The thing is, when Minstrel was running the draft, everyone accidentally picked someone who'd already been picked once in a while. Admittedly, some of them were in the later rounds, when it was easier to make that mistake. That said, it's an honest mistake that WILL be made again, many times this draft.

And I at least don't hold this against Minstrel. I think he's shown himself to be an alright person in the past, and this doesn't change that. He's missed a huge amount, and it doesn't actually hurt us for one or two people to drop out.

Thanks, Wade. I appreciate you being understanding.

ChrisLDuncan

01-16-2008, 09:58 PM

Minstrel, you know your stuff. There's a huge part (the part of me that's a competitive dick) of me that is glad you left, and won't take my sleepers. However, there are a few top 20 players that didn't get picked in the 4th round that are still left. You shouldn't be at too big of a disadvantage. If you would like to speak with me directly feel free to email me at ChrisLDuncan@gmail.com I'd love to have you stay.

Wade8813

01-16-2008, 10:08 PM

--It sure doesn't help. I agree it was a mistake we are likely to see repeated in the draft. It could happen to me as well as anyone - but if it did I wouldn't expect the draft to stop until I came back to correct it. Nor would I quit and leave a hole in the draft.

I don't see the so-called hole mattering. Every time it would be his turn, the next person just goes. It doesn't slow anything down - in fact, it's faster, since we have one less person. Is it a little disappointing that the players he picked are removed from the game? Sure. But it's not a big deal. They wouldn't end up on my team either way.

leecemark

01-16-2008, 10:16 PM

--No big deal I guess.. If somebody is going to quit on us, probably better it happens early. How many picks does AstrosFan miss before we consider ourselves down to 12? Thats about the minimum number I'd want to go through an all time draft with, so hopefully either AF gets back in or we don't lose anybody else. This is why I have sat out the last few of these kind of things. Its really hard to find enough people you can count on to see it through to the end. With a long, drawn out project like this people are going to have things come up.

Minstrel

01-16-2008, 10:24 PM

Wade8813

01-16-2008, 10:24 PM

Welcome back!

Minstrel

01-16-2008, 10:27 PM

Welcome back!

Thanks for having me back. ;)

And thanks, ChrisLDuncan. I appreciate your nice sentiments.

Wade8813

01-16-2008, 10:28 PM

Alright. So, Wee Willie is up, and if he picks soon, DMF should be able to pick not long after.

leecemark

01-16-2008, 10:34 PM

In thinking it over, perhaps I'm being a tad hasty. I felt discouraged by losing out on so many players (due to my error, I recognize). But in thinking it over, I shouldn't break a commitment.

I'll select:

http://baseball-fever.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=23442&d=1178258841

Addie Joss (1904 - 1908)

--Thats the spirit. Sure its disappointing to miss out on some guys you wanted/could have had but in the end its only one player who is worse than what might have been. That won't stop you from building a contender if you're smart with your other picks. Glad to have you back.

Wee Willie

01-16-2008, 11:19 PM

Actually, I'd like to change my mind:

Albert Pujols, 2003-07

Disgruntaledmarinerfan

01-17-2008, 12:26 AM

I'll take George Brett 1979-1983. Then, because I traded for Brett's pick, and AF is still skipped, I get Griffey Jr 1990-1994.

3424234243

AstrosFan

01-17-2008, 01:11 AM

Sorry I've delayed you guys. Internet troubles, and I haven't been around my computer much these days.

Yogi Berra 1950-54

http://www.achievement.org/achievers/ber0/large/ber0-006.jpg

Dazzy Vance 1924-28

http://static.howstuffworks.com/gif/dazzy-vance-hof.jpg

Wade8813

01-17-2008, 01:36 AM

I think you get one more, AstrosFan.

philkid3

01-17-2008, 01:37 AM

If I'm not mistaken, that puts me back on the clock, yes? Wow, two picks in one day.

I'll be back with a pick.

philkid3

01-17-2008, 02:06 AM

Dennis (Dan) Joseph Brouthers (1882-86)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/32/Dan_Brouthers_0556fu.jpg/339px-Dan_Brouthers_0556fu.jpg

ElHalo

01-17-2008, 03:34 AM

http://img.nytstore.com/IMAGES/NSAPNL34L_LARGE.JPG
Juan Marichal, 1965-1969

Disgruntaledmarinerfan

01-17-2008, 04:01 AM

http://img.nytstore.com/IMAGES/NSAPNL34L_LARGE.JPG
Juan Marichal, 1965-1969

Man, I love that high leg kick. too bad we don't see those eccentric types of deliveries anymore.

BTW, Nice pick, I was hoping he would lasted a few more rounds though.

Erik Bedard

01-17-2008, 05:25 AM

I forget... is there a no-19th century rule or not? Back in a sec with my pick...

Erik Bedard

01-17-2008, 05:27 AM

Jeff Bagwell, 1994-8
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y78/ChadFinn/bagwelltp.jpg

philkid3

01-17-2008, 05:47 AM

Jeff Bagwell, 1994-8
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y78/ChadFinn/bagwelltp.jpg

I don't believe that's Jeff Bagwell.

leecemark

01-17-2008, 06:08 AM

--I got the opening post caught up.. AstroFn does still have a make up pick coming. MInstrel is on the clock.

brett

01-17-2008, 07:00 AM

The thing is, when Minstrel was running the draft, everyone accidentally picked someone who'd already been picked once in a while. Admittedly, some of them were in the later rounds, when it was easier to make that mistake. That said, it's an honest mistake that WILL be made again, many times this draft.

And I at least don't hold this against Minstrel. I think he's shown himself to be an alright person in the past, and this doesn't change that. He's missed a huge amount, and it doesn't actually hurt us for one or two people to drop out.

So are you saying that in past drafts, if someone made a pick that was not available (which apparently happened on multiple occasions) that no one else could pick until that guys original window was up? Or are you saying that people continued to draft at that point. I just want to know what was actually done in prior drafts.

If I were going to use a common sense approach I would say this: If a drafter makes a mistake and doesn't take responsibility for determining that his pick is taken WHEN HE IS DRAFTING, then he should not expect the next drafters to take responsibility for determining that his pick was not legitimate (and their picks as well). When the next guy drafts, he is revealing critical information and would be harmed to be stripped of that pick. It has to be the drafter himself, not future drafters who are responsible for confirming his pick. And I don't know why anyone is referring to it as a crime. Its not punishment for a crime.

I thought I'd make my pick of Brown and keep the draft moving, and Minstrel would be back and fix his mistake and say that he didn't want Brown anyway, and we would not-for the third time-lose most of a day of drafting because of one person.

And if he had picked immediately when he got back, I still see at least one guy who might have been the next best guy taken during his turn.

brett

01-17-2008, 07:01 AM

--I got the opening post caught up.. AstroFn does still have a make up pick coming. MInstrel is on the clock.

Did he make a pick for last round?

Erik Bedard

01-17-2008, 07:07 AM

In past drafts, an invalid pick was treated as the end of an eight-hour clock, only it wasn't eight hours.

ElHalo

01-17-2008, 07:14 AM

Man, I love that high leg kick. too bad we don't see those eccentric types of deliveries anymore.

BTW, Nice pick, I was hoping he would lasted a few more rounds though.

I took him specifically because of his delivery. There are a few other pitchers who are comparable in terms of numbers, but like I said before on Carl Hubbell, I want each of my starters to show a completely different look to the opposing teams' batters to throw them out of rythym (a screwball would have been nice; the high leg kick will do though). My fifth starter -- not to be taken for quite a few more rounds -- will almost certainly be a knuckleballer.

leecemark

01-17-2008, 07:38 AM

ElHalo

01-17-2008, 07:45 AM

--That is something I've always tried to do in these things too. A knuckler in between a pair of hard throwers keeps the other team off balance. I'd like a couple LHP and if you can mix in an unusual pitch or funky delivery that helps make for a staff that hard for opposing batters to get dialed in against. Of course, you can manage some of that with your bullpen too. If you've got mostly fireballers in the roation then a knuckler or other junkballing reliever makes for a nice change of pace. Not that I'd sacrifice TOO much in terms of simple quality to get that mix.

Completley agree. Although I don't think I sacrificed too much in quality to get that mix effect from Randy Johnson (ultra-mega high release point, some sidearm action), Ed Walsh (spitball), and Juan Marichal (funky delivery), to go with the more "conventional" stuff of Pedro Martinez (conventional in the terms of what he threw; I don't believe that there was another pitcher in the history of the game who had the single best fastball, single best changeup, and single best curveball in the league at the same time, though, so that's a bit "unconventional").

brett

01-17-2008, 09:52 AM

I'll take George Brett 1979-1983. Then, because I traded for Brett's pick, and AF is still skipped, I get Griffey Jr 1990-1994.

3424234243

I think you got the right years for Griffey, but Brett was injured in '80, '81, '82 and '83 and in '83 it was a horrible defensive year, like .920 fielding and he couldn't run at all in '83.

I probably would have gone '76-'80. He was a gold glove contender in '77-'80 and runner-up MVP in '76 and a very good baserunner for that entire stretch.

brett

01-17-2008, 09:53 AM

I'd like to use '56-'60 for Banks years instead of '57-'61. Since its not affecting the draft is that okay?

leecemark

01-17-2008, 10:04 AM

--Not my call, but I would think you could adjust the years fro your players any time between now and the end of the end of the draft.

AstrosFan

01-17-2008, 10:11 AM

Okay, I see I have another pick. Give me Rube Waddell 1902-06.

http://baseball-fever.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=25798&d=1183181276

brett

01-17-2008, 11:15 AM

Okay, I see I have another pick. Give me Rube Waddell 1902-06.

Nice. Could have gone in the last round for sure. Maybe the last "second tier" 5 year peak. In fact his peak 5 are virtually identical to Young's peak 5.

Here's there approx IP and ERA+ for the 5 years:
Waddell 315/154
Young 360/162

Anyone know about him-how he threw, what he threw etc?

leecemark

01-17-2008, 11:22 AM

--My impression of him is that he was just a guy who threw as hard as he could as long as he could. He must have had some good movement too though to strikeout as many guys as he did in that era though. He was also on my short list of pitchers. From here on out your choice is mostly between workhorses who were more good than great, guys with high rates but durabilty issues or 19th century pitchers.

Westlake

01-17-2008, 11:44 AM

Deleted......

Minstrel

01-17-2008, 12:04 PM

I'll select:

http://www.thejerseyspot.com/pics/curt-schilling-action.jpg

Curt Schilling (2000-2004)

SamtheBravesFan

01-17-2008, 12:17 PM

http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/8629/180pxbillyhamiltonbasebbe5.jpg

Billy Hamilton, 1891-95

leecemark

01-17-2008, 12:23 PM

--Only one pick away from getting a player I nearly picked 25 players ago!

SamtheBravesFan

01-17-2008, 12:29 PM

--Only one pick away from getting a player I nearly picked 25 players ago!

Well, you're lucky. :p

leecemark

01-17-2008, 12:35 PM

--I guess how lucky I am depends on Chris:crossfingers: Or maybe I just overrate my guy:confused:.

ElHalo

01-17-2008, 01:32 PM

Nevermind, that post probably gave too much away.

ElHalo

01-17-2008, 01:34 PM

--Not my call, but I would think you could adjust the years fro your players any time between now and the end of the end of the draft.

I would agree with that.

ChrisLDuncan

01-17-2008, 02:42 PM

I got some bad news guys, I got to go tutor and I will likely be busy until 9 CST. However, I will pick tonight. A few of my picks were taken thanks alot jerks :mad: I now wish that Minstrel dropped out permanently ;) I guess I wasn't wrong about his baseball knowledge. So I'll need some time to think about these picks. My appologies. I will try to give you a pick before 6 CST.

leecemark

01-17-2008, 03:09 PM

--That is a bad break for our progress. By the time you get back to pick I'll be out for the evening. It will be midnight before I'm able to get mine in.

Wade8813

01-17-2008, 04:22 PM

Private messages are your friends...

ChrisLDuncan

01-17-2008, 04:34 PM

--That is a bad break for our progress. By the time you get back to pick I'll be out for the evening. It will be midnight before I'm able to get mine in.

Never fear. This pick is comming really early, however I need a left handed pitcher and this guy was a horse. Warren Spahn

http://www.milwaukeebraves.info/images/spahn1.jpg

ChrisLDuncan

01-17-2008, 04:42 PM

Drat, right as I pick Mark signs off. Well that's just my luck. :hide::eek:

leecemark

01-17-2008, 04:59 PM

--No time for comment or pics since I'm headed out the door, but I take Duke Snider and Willie McCovey.

brett

01-17-2008, 05:41 PM

--No time for comment or pics since I'm headed out the door, but I take Duke Snider and Willie McCovey.

Snider was one of the top hitters left, regardless of position. I am suprised at how close his 5 years compares to that of DiMaggio.

By the way, this is starting to feel like I am drafting against a bunch of clones of myself-not in a bad way, but its a little spooky sometimes.

ChrisLDuncan

01-17-2008, 10:39 PM

I'll take my 4th starter now, I know both of these pitchers are taken a bit high, but I don't think either would have gotten back to me.

Robin Roberts
1951-1955

http://imagecache2.allposters.com/images/pic/PHO/AAFN011~Robin-Roberts-Posters.jpg

leecemark

01-17-2008, 10:54 PM

--I don't know that Roberts was too high. It was between he and McCovey for me with my last pick. Strech just had too high a peak to pass on though.
--Duke Snider was the guy I couldn't believe got back to me. His Win Shares 5 year peak was the highest of any position player on the board and had been for awhile. Moreover he is MUCH better than the next best CFer as well as two CFer picked ahead of him (Griffey and Hamilton). Brett is correct in noting that for 5 year peak there is little to choose between Snider and DiMaggio.

ChrisLDuncan

01-17-2008, 10:55 PM

I pretty much had to convince myself to take Spahn, I needed a lefty and I didn't want to have some second tier left handed starter.

leecemark

01-17-2008, 11:02 PM

ChrisLDuncan

01-17-2008, 11:04 PM

--For career valueI think Spahn is the 2nd best LHP ever, but for peak he kind of is a 2nd tier guy. He has 4 different 5 year chucks that would be pretty good, but none where he was dominant in an all time way.

He's not the "elite" type of guy, but that's mainly just Koufax, Grove, and Johnson IMO. However, he's an innings eater, and IMO the best lefty left.

SamtheBravesFan

01-17-2008, 11:11 PM

http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/5448/bertblylevenbball8x10spfs6.jpg

Bert Blyleven, 1973-77

ChrisLDuncan

01-17-2008, 11:15 PM

BUT HE'z NOT IN TEH HALL!!11!!! Great pick though, very underrated guy, I was hoping he'd drop to me. True innings eater and will give your bullpen a rest.

Wade8813

01-17-2008, 11:34 PM

I think you guys are overrating Snider (or else underrating some other guys). Sure, he's good, but there's a decent number of better hitters, at least at other positions. Also, his fielding isn't too great most of those years, as far as I can tell. He was still on my list though.

leecemark

01-17-2008, 11:53 PM

Wade8813

01-18-2008, 12:03 AM

That's a more reasonable position, IMO, but I still disagree. Again, not saying he's bad, but I think there's others who are about as good, maybe a little better.

ElHalo

01-18-2008, 06:41 AM

Minstrel and then Brett. I've got two players I'm really itching to get, and another four or five I'd be happy with... hopefully they won't both go in the next two picks.

brett

01-18-2008, 06:50 AM

--Actually I think Brett was giving Snider a little too much credit in calling him the best hitter on the board. I think the other guy I took in the same post was a better hitter (McCovey). Snider was easily the best player on the board though and on the short list for best hitter.

Yea there are a few other hitters but there aren't many with a 160+ OPS+ over 5 years left:happy:.

But as for defense, Griffey doesn't come out as a great defensive player statistically. I think Snider comes out as a "plus" centerfielder in most systems and everything I read suggests that he was a positively regarded defensive centerfielder and a better hitter than Griffey for 5 years.

Wade8813

01-18-2008, 10:14 AM

I'd agree that Snider is a bit better at hitting than Griffey, but not a lot.

I don't put a lot of weight in FRAA, but it has Snider at a negative number for almost each year of his career. Griffey has more positive years.

Also, Griffey was regarded as one of the best fielders in history by many. Maybe he was overrated, but it seems unlikely that it would be by that much.

leecemark

01-18-2008, 10:32 AM

--I'd be willing to concede that Griffey was at least a little bit better defender than Snider (of course I never saw the Duke). Win Shares takes defense into account though and SNider's 5 year peak is still significantly higher than Griffey's.

ElHalo

01-18-2008, 11:27 AM

Brett, unless I'm mistaken you're on the clock. Last pick was at ten last night CT, so Minstrel's time ran up this morning.

Minstrel

01-18-2008, 11:28 AM

I'll select:

http://baseball-fever.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=22748&d=1176860624

John Clarkson (1885-1889)

I'm not aware of a rule about which players are eligible, and I assume since Kid Nichols is allowable, Clarkson is also? If not, please tell me...I'll check back soon to make a new pick if Clarkson is invalid for some reason.

brett

01-18-2008, 11:41 AM

Brett, unless I'm mistaken you're on the clock. Last pick was at ten last night CT, so Minstrel's time ran up this morning.

I think Chris and SBF went after 10:00 PM so I assume that the 8 hours started this morning-right?

brett

01-18-2008, 11:42 AM

I'll select:

John Clarkson (1885-1889)

I'm not aware of a rule about which players are eligible, and I assume since Kid Nichols is allowable, Clarkson is also? If not, please tell me...I'll check back soon to make a new pick if Clarkson is invalid for some reason.

Clarkson is eligible.

Wade8813

01-18-2008, 11:46 AM

I think Chris and SBF went after 10:00 PM so I assume that the 8 hours started this morning-right?
I'm pretty sure you're right.

Minstrel

01-18-2008, 11:50 AM

Clarkson is eligible.

Great, thanks.

Clarkson has some amazing WARP3 scores, due to his combinations of innings pitched and runs allowed, both great even for the time.

ElHalo

01-18-2008, 12:50 PM

Clarkson is eligible.

Cool. Brett, you're good?

Wade8813

01-18-2008, 12:50 PM

Brett seems to have disappeared without making his pick (unless he has some deal that he made that I'm unaware of, so this isn't his pick?)

ElHalo

01-18-2008, 12:52 PM

Brett seems to have disappeared without making his pick (unless he has some deal that he made that I'm unaware of, so this isn't his pick?)

That's frustrating. Although, like I said, I have two guys I'm itching to get, so at least now I'm guaranteed of getting one of them.

leecemark

01-18-2008, 01:00 PM

--Clarkson has a huge amount of value in his own time and place. It is more quantity than quality - not that he isn't very good - and most of that won't translate to a modern context.
--He did it under very different rules and conditions. Very speculative as to what he'd accomplish in the modern game, but perhaps worth a flyer with all the truelt dominant modern pitchers gone. I did consider him myself. but passed for the above reasons.

brett

01-18-2008, 02:16 PM

I can't decide. Give me a few minutes

brett

01-18-2008, 02:38 PM

Oh heck, I'm going to get wild and bypass a pitcher, as well as the hitter I think EH is thinking about and take Tim Raines '83-'87. Hey at least its interesting.
There were 3-4 pitchers who I either couldn't quite put that high, or who it would have disgusted me to take.

I can't post a picture from here.

ElHalo

01-18-2008, 02:47 PM

http://baseball-fever.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=18478&d=1178765927
Frank Baker, 1911-1916.

brett

01-18-2008, 03:37 PM

Can I get clarification on the final decision on players playing different positions.

(don't worry, its not about Raines)

The rule was stated that a player had to have played a position at least 162 games at some point in his career, and not necessarily during the years he was selected for.

Is this the rule as it stands?

leecemark

01-18-2008, 03:44 PM

brett

01-18-2008, 03:51 PM

--I thought we'd settled on them having to have played the position during the selected years? Or maybe we agreed you could use them wherever with the presumption they would be lousy at it? You stick 2000-2004 Bonds in CF you've got a defensive disaster even if its within the rules. Hornsby at SS in the 20s after he'd been moved off the position and down the defensive spectrum twice and packed on 20-30 lbs is going to be giving up alot with the glove too.

That's why I want to get clarification. I like the "bolder" option because in Bonds and Hornsby case we can see what might have happened, and for other guys, we might feel that they could have made a particular move earlier
or later without a problem.

ElHalo

01-18-2008, 05:00 PM

That's why I want to get clarification. I like the "bolder" option because in Bonds and Hornsby case we can see what might have happened, and for other guys, we might feel that they could have made a particular move earlier
or later without a problem.

I would think that you can move somebody to the easier position earlier or later if you want, but go the other way and get slammed. Like, if you want to use Rangers ARod at 3B, that should be fine, but if you want to use Yankees ARod at SS, you're gonna take a drop.

And if you want to use 20's Hornsby at SS, I'm going to say right now that I'm going to give you less overall credit than if you use David Eckstein at SS. I don't care what offense you're getting out of the position; he flat out couldn't play it at that point, I don't care what arguments you'll make to the contrary, and I'm going to assume that he's giving up more runs over a replacement SS on defense than he's getting back on offense. If you really want to use Hornsby as a SS, you can use 1916-1920 Hornsby in the role and I don't think anybody would have a problem with it... not the greatest defender, but not a big deal. But use 1921 to 1925 Hornsby as a SS, and I'm telling you right now, I will consider him to be a sub-replacement level player overall. Same thing with 2000-2004 Bonds in CF. That's just completely going against reality.

Wade8813

01-18-2008, 05:07 PM

Like, if you want to use Rangers ARod at 3B, that should be fine, but if you want to use Yankees ARod at SS, you're gonna take a drop. I disagree. I think that A-Rod would be fine at SS, at least for the first couple years he was playing 3B. He still had the ability, and didn't suddenly forget how to play the position.

And if you want to use 20's Hornsby at SS, I'm going to say right now that I'm going to give you less overall credit than if you use David Eckstein at SS. I don't care what offense you're getting out of the position; he flat out couldn't play it at that point, I don't care what arguments you'll make to the contrary, and I'm going to assume that he's giving up more runs over a replacement SS on defense than he's getting back on offense. If you really want to use Hornsby as a SS, you can use 1916-1920 Hornsby in the role and I don't think anybody would have a problem with it... not the greatest defender, but not a big deal. But use 1921 to 1925 Hornsby as a SS, and I'm telling you right now, I will consider him to be a sub-replacement level player overall. Same thing with 2000-2004 Bonds in CF. That's just completely going against reality. Yes, it's completely against reality to have Bonds 2000-2004 in CF, but your idea that he'd be worse than a replacement level player overall is beyond absurd. You can't take the best players in the game, and then just assume they'd have been horrible just because they were out of position. Bonds would still be valuable to a team, even if they somehow had to stick him in CF for 2000-2004.

philkid3

01-18-2008, 05:15 PM

I hope I'm not missing him being taken (or a reason he hasn't been):

Amos Wilson "The Hoosier Thunderbolt" Rusie (1890-94)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/b/b4/Amos_Rusie_Baseball_Card.jpg/200px-Amos_Rusie_Baseball_Card.jpg

Erik Bedard

01-18-2008, 05:16 PM

Erik Bedard

01-18-2008, 05:18 PM

Rickey Henderson, 1989-93

http://artfiles.art.com/images/-/Rickey-Henderson-939-Stolen-Bases-1991-Photograph-C10103677.jpeg

brett

01-18-2008, 05:25 PM

Rickey Henderson, 1989-93

Nice pick though harder to choose the years than for Raines. You may want to consider '81-'85 as he was a solid centerfielder in '85, actually good, but would have been risky there by the late '80s.

If you take out Henderson's centerfield ability (and you can certainly put him there anyway, I just would not consider him as very good there by '89) I think Raines definitely has a better 5 year peak though. More a question of finding the right 5 years for Henderson though.

Then again, no one wreaked havoc like Henderson around '89/'90.

Erik Bedard

01-18-2008, 05:31 PM

I've already got Joe D. in CF, and I really wanted his 1990 season. '81-'85 is good, and he's got more speed (unless, did Alderson start his pre-Moneyball philosophy around 1990?), but I really, really wanted that 1990 season. Raines doesn't have one like it, and he doesn't play CF either.

Wade8813

01-18-2008, 05:41 PM

On the first page of this thread, are the names wrong for this round? Or were there some trades I don't know about?

ElHalo

01-18-2008, 05:46 PM

He'd be worse than replacement level defensively. Certainly not overall. In one Imagine Sports league, I had Stan Musial fill in at SS for a few games because all my shortstops were injured, and he didn't completely screw everything up. Won me a couple games with his bat, actually.

Consider this: Ryan Braun, who had a stellar offensive season with a .326 equivalent average, had a WARP3 of only 4.8 because of his atrocious defense (and the fact that he didn't play a full season). Prorate it out to a full season and it's a 6.9.

Miguel Cabrera, with an identical .326 equivalent average, had an 11.2 WARP3 because he wasn't horrendously awful at defense... and he's not even a good defender. He's just an adequate defender.

Now, take into consideration the fact that his team thought Braun was actually good enough to play the position. Imagine putting somebody there that the team thought was in no way, shape, or form good enough to play the position.

Rogers Hornsby in 1922 (in what I consider one of the top two or three offensive seasons of all time... 40 homers and a .400 average??!?!?!!) put up a 14.1 WARP3 as a mediocre defensive 2Bman. Put him at SS -- where he'd be an absolute disaster -- and I could legitimately see that dropping to... oh, I don't know. Maybe 4 or 5. Baseball Prospectus shows him as 120 Batting Runs above average. If he were fielding at SS, I could easily see him being 80 or 90 Fielding Runs below average, and basically cancelling out all of his offense.