Shoulder Rotation (Hitting) [Archive]

jbooth

12-31-2007, 10:14 AM

As I try and put my new found understanding of the technical details of the swing to work I think I need some help with describing whats happening with the lead shoulder (actually both shoulders since they're connected). It apears that the shoulders must be completely rotated to the point where they are square (at least) with the pitcher. This is fairly obvious in most pics I've seen of the MLB're as well as the pics of some of the kids posted lately. Is this shoulder position a result of proper hip rotation? A couple of the visual indicators I've noticed is that, at contact, the lead shoulder is behind the head when viewed from side. The rear shoulder is rotated to the point where it's pointed at home plate. When I hear the terms "over rotated" or "pulling the shoulder out" and look at the shoulder position in high level swings I find myself confused. When is a swing over rotated? I can still hear my old coaches yelling at me from the 3rd base box to stop pulling my shoulder out. I can hear myself saying it also. How do you guys deal with the shoulders? Do you teach that position or does it just follow from proper mechanics of the hips/hands? See shoulder position of Howard and Soriano below.

Thanks - JK29

Pulling the shoulder out, means that you most likely moved the shoulder before the hips. The hips MUST turn first. Pulling off the ball is when you turn the shoulder too soon and move your head away from the plate, as you do it.

Stand up and try to hold your shoulders still while you turn your hips. When your hips turn to a certain point, you won't be able to hold the shoulders in place. The shoulders will be pulled around to again line up with the hips. The spine can only twist so far, before it wants to untwist, and the external oblique muscles (side muscles) will contract and pull your shoulders back in line with the hips.

This is what you should do when you swing. You keep the front shoulder "in" until the hips make it move. The arms should pull on the bat at the same time the shoulders start to move. The timing and sequence is critical.

The back elbow starts to drop and the hands start to flatten the bat as the hips turn, but the shoulders don't rotate until the hips make them rotate, and the hands move with the back shoulder, they don't move ahead of the shoulder. The arms pull the bat in synch with the body rotation. You don't want the hands moving ahead of the shoulders, nor lagging behind the shoulders.

It's difficult to describe, but the very basic sequence is Hips, Handle, then bat Head. Since everything is connected you just need to get it all in synch.

The hips move the shoulders, the shoulders and arms move the hands, the arms pull the bat, the hands turn the knob up toward the ball and throw the bathead at the ball.

jbooth

12-31-2007, 10:23 AM

The shoulders are at the mercy of the hands and hips. Proper use of the hands and hips make the shoulders conform. The shoulders do not power the swing in any fashion.

The shoulders are turned by the hips, but the hands have nothing to do with the shoulder movement. And, although the hips are the primary driving force; to say that the shoulders do not power the swing in any fashion is not accurate. They contribute power also, although it may not be a conscious thought. The instinctive contraction of the obliques, to get the shoulders back in line with the hips, certainly does contribute power to the overall process.

I agree that you don't have to think much about moving the shoulders, in fact, to prevent pulling out, you should think of holding them still, but they DO, in actuality, contribute power to the movement of the arms and hands.

FiveFrameSwing

12-31-2007, 10:29 AM

I can still hear my old coaches yelling at me from the 3rd base box to stop pulling my shoulder out.

Charley Lau Jr. addresses this issue well.

The issue is that some players have a habit of pulling the knob of the bat to the contact point with their shoulders. That is a relatively slow approach with a short hitting zone. Charley Lau Jr has a drill that he calls "no feet, no shoulders". Don Slaught has a related drill that he calls "live and independent hands".

If you've ever heard a coach yell out "keep your shoulders closed", he was probably referring to an action in which the shoulders were being used as the primary source for pulling the bat to contact.

4for4

12-31-2007, 10:53 AM

I think Booth is right and would be a much better way to think about this. A small snippet of what he said is very important:

The timing and sequence is critical.

I think this is where a lot of kids have trouble.

I also seem to see a lot of young players "step in the bucket" or "clear the hips" and swing from the upper body only. This can give that look of pulling off. As Jim says, you have to get it synched correctly.

Here is some additional reading (http://209.85.173.104/search?q=cache:wBLqiZ8wlnkJ:carini.physics.indiana .edu/E105S99/swing.html+John+P.+Carini,+anatomy+of+the+swing&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us) material for you to consider regarding the forces at play in the swing.

JeffK 29

12-31-2007, 11:06 AM

Thanks 5/SB/JB - all great points.

Seems that if you get a guys hips moving but he's been ingrained with hands first approach I guess he'd need to pay close attention to not letting his hands get ahead.

swingbuilder

12-31-2007, 12:06 PM

JeffK 29

12-31-2007, 12:24 PM

I think Booth is right and would be a much better way to think about this. A small snippet of what he said is very important:

I think this is where a lot of kids have trouble.

I also seem to see a lot of young players "step in the bucket" or "clear the hips" and swing from the upper body only. This can give that look of pulling off. As Jim says, you have to get it synched correctly.

Here is some additional reading (http://209.85.173.104/search?q=cache:wBLqiZ8wlnkJ:carini.physics.indiana .edu/E105S99/swing.html+John+P.+Carini,+anatomy+of+the+swing&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us) material for you to consider regarding the forces at play in the swing.

Thanks 4. I'll check it out.

-JK29

jbooth

12-31-2007, 12:39 PM

The only value the shoulders have JeffK is to resist rotation. The shoulders build the necesary resistence in the swing. The hands bypass the shoulders rotation. To rotate the shoulders by the shoulders is pulling off. Forget about bucket striders. It doesnt matter.

The shoulders follow the lead of the hands. Meaning, the shoulders do not make the hands move to the hitting zone.

Is your body built different from every other person's who walks on this planet? Do Newton's Laws of physics work differently upon your body?

That has to be the case, because what you stated above is complete, and total nonsense, both anatomically and according to the laws of physics.

You can try to resist their need to rotate, but they will regardless. And, you can try to hold them still and move the bat with the arms, but that would cut off the transference of energy that you say comes from the hips, and it would eliminate any contribution that the shoulders make to moving the bat.

Basically what you're saying is that you can hit the ball 400 feet while holding the body still and just using your arms. I don't think so!

swingbuilder

12-31-2007, 12:47 PM

Is your body built different from every other person's who walks on this planet? Do Newton's Laws of physics work differently upon your body?

That has to be the case, because what you stated above is complete, and total nonsense, both anatomically and according to the laws of physics.

You can try to resist their need to rotate, but they will regardless. And, you can try to hold them still and move the bat with the arms, but that would cut off the transference of energy that you say comes from the hips, and it would eliminate any contribution that the shoulders make to moving the bat.

Basically what you're saying is that you can hit the ball 400 feet while holding the body still and just using your arms. I don't think so!

Jim, with all respect. I did not even come close to saying what you have put in my mouth. How you arrive at me saying that is whats really complete nonsense.

How did you arrive at that?

jbooth

12-31-2007, 01:09 PM

swingbuilder

12-31-2007, 02:27 PM

4for4

12-31-2007, 03:00 PM

Video shows the hands moving and the shoulders not moving at a certain points in the swing. Do you not see that?

There for the hands "bypass" the rotation of the shoulders.

It wasnt said that the shoulders remain passive and still. The shoulders only work correctly when the hands and hips tell them to work. They do not power the swing in the least little bit. The sole purpose of the shoulders is to build the resistence in the swing. All good hitters have outstanding resistence in their swings. You must have this resistence to have the proper connection in the swing. To use the shoulders to help supply power would be a bad teaching move by any coach.

Whoa, are you switching definitions on us? That's not what has been written on the subject in the past by it's makerupper? He says that there is no shoulder rotation, that the energy jumps magically from the hips to the arms. Now we know that to be on earth and engage in a ballistic movement, that it doesn't work that way. And I hardly think that resistance is what's going on considering that we're talking about a summation of all the forces, transfering from one link to the next, including the shoulders. Resistance would interupt momentum transfer, or so it seems to me.

RayR

12-31-2007, 03:15 PM

No power from the shoulders here?

http://ramellibandr.com/SHA/wrightshoulders.gif

swingbuilder

12-31-2007, 03:18 PM

not one bit.

again, the shoulders are a slave to the hands and the hips.

jbooth

12-31-2007, 03:19 PM

Video shows the hands moving and the shoulders not moving at a certain points in the swing. Do you not see that?

No, I don't. Unless you mean movement of the hands prior to shoulder rotation starting. Once the shoulders start to rotate, there is no movement of the hands without the shoulders. Unless by movement of the hands, you mean that they turn over, or swivel and uncock. But, they do that WHILE they move on the path toward the ball, moving in synch with the shoulders.

Therefore the hands "bypass" the rotation of the shoulders.

Maybe you use a different dictionary along with your unique body, and the space in which it exists.

bypass
4. To be heedless of; ignore: bypassed standard office procedures.
5. to avoid (an obstruction, city, etc.) by following a bypass.
6. to cause (fluid or gas) to follow a secondary pipe or bypass.
7. to neglect to consult or to ignore the opinion or decision of: He bypassed the foreman and took his grievance straight to the owner.

I don't see how that word describes anything that happens in a swing. I might guess that you mean it per #4, and I would agree to some extent with that, but even if you ignore the shoulders, they do contribute force.

It wasn't said that the shoulders remain passive and still. The shoulders only work correctly when the hands and hips tell them to work.

Anatomically, the hands have absolutely nothing to do with moving the shoulders, neither do the arms.

The hips indirectly make them move, as I described before, and when the shoulders move with the hips, they then cause the hands to move. You may then use arm muscles to make the hands catch up and move faster than the shoulders, but in a good swing, the shoulders start the hands toward the ball.

They do not power the swing in the least little bit.

Oh yes, they do.

The sole purpose of the shoulders is to build the resistence in the swing. All good hitters have outstanding resistence in their swings. You must have this resistence to have the proper connection in the swing.

Again, I have no idea what you mean, because that statement is incomprehensible nonsense. Resist what? Where? When? How?

The shoulders briefly resist the force from the hips in the initial start of the swing. After that, they turn almost 180 degrees, and the momentum of that turning mass certainly applies forces to the bat, and contributes to moving the hands on the path through the ball.

To use the shoulders to help supply power would be a bad teaching move by any coach.

I've said several times that you don't think much about them, but they do transmit power, and they are not "bypassed."

swingbuilder

12-31-2007, 03:22 PM

http://www.teachersbilliards.com/hitzone/m16.gif

swingbuilder

12-31-2007, 03:51 PM

No idea, like my golf swing, to get the clip to play on the thread.

jbooth

12-31-2007, 04:35 PM

No idea, like my golf swing, to get the clip to play on the thread.

Here's a clip. I numbered 10 of the frames. Would you please tell me in which frames, the shoulders get bypassed?

And, from about frame 4 to about frame 7 what do you believe are the forces moving the hands toward the ball?

http://firstpickclub.com/video/bonds756ct.gif

swingbuilder

12-31-2007, 05:53 PM

4for4

12-31-2007, 06:06 PM

Jim, every single frame you have numbered and of course hip rotation.

Tell me Jim what frames do the shoulders come to a stop? and what else also stopped at the same time? and finally what is happening during this time?

I'm sure you'll also tell me the barrel doesn't blur rearward before the body turns either and that the shoulders are powering that blur.

Jim will have his answer soon, but I don't think the question you ask here is material.

First the hips stop, then the shoulders stop, then the arms slow, then the bat gains max speed and makes contact . In other words, transfer mechanics. Nothing bypassed the shoulders.

One link slows, while the next picks up additional speed and so on.

jbooth

12-31-2007, 06:07 PM

Jim, every single frame you have numbered and of course hip rotation.

Tell me Jim what frames do the shoulders come to a stop? and what else also stopped at the same time? and finally what is happening during this time?

I'm sure you'll also tell me the barrel doesn't blur rearward before the body turns either and that the shoulders are powering that blur.

I'll give you a hint, the shoulders are NOT bypassed in every frame, and the word "whip" has some significance. See if you can figure it out.

BTW, Yeager and DeRenne and Adair all believe it happens in the same manner, and they came up with the answer independant from one another, and they actually know something about how the body moves, and physics.

jbooth

12-31-2007, 06:10 PM

Jim will have his answer soon, but I don't think the question you ask here is material.

First the hips stop, then the shoulders stop, then the arms slow, then the bat gains max speed and makes contact . In other words, transfer mechanics. Nothing bypassed the shoulders.

One link slows, while the next picks up additional speed and so on.

Yep, just like a whip, but I guess Swingbuilder would describe the tip of the whip as "bypassing" the handle as it moves forward to the "crack" point, and somehow the tip moved the handle first to get it all started.:crazy

4for4

12-31-2007, 06:25 PM

Yep, just like a whip, but I guess Swingbuilder would describe the tip of the whip as "bypassing" the handle as it moves forward to the "crack" point, and somehow the tip moved the handle first to get it all started.:crazy

It's definitely frustrating. I can't ignore the body of work of the guys you mention and others on this point and I can't ignore the fact that every other ballistic activity operates under the same principals as the baseball swing here on this planet.

CoachB25

12-31-2007, 06:39 PM

joof

12-31-2007, 07:09 PM

CoachB25,

I liked the way the Japanese gentleman described this.

I would like to read these comments. Would you please direct me to the site where they appear.

Thanks, joof

jbooth

12-31-2007, 08:41 PM

I liked the way the Japanese gentleman described this. He said that one should imagine making a cast while fishing, the power has to generate from the handle (hips in his explaination) up that rod to the tip (Shoulders) and the tip has to follow that handle. I mentioned this on another site and he was explaining the serape effect.

Below is a link to a summary by Dr. Coop DeRenne, a PhD in Human Performance. His summary is nearly identical to the conclusions of Chris Yeager, also a PhD in human performance and Robert Adair a PhD in physics. I doubt that they all are completely off base on this topic, and they have studied it in labs with hi-tech equipment and have high-level knowledge of how the body moves and uses energy. And, they each reached similar conclusions although the research was independent from one another. Their conclusions as to how the bat is swung is certainly not even close to the beliefs of Swingbuilder.

http://firstpickclub.com/images/kinetic link principle2.pdf

BoardMember

12-31-2007, 09:09 PM

IMO, they are being sold a "bill of goods".

The clip SwingBuilder posted is SO FAR into the swing, the shoulder ARE bypassed in the clip because they have essentually done their job. It is truncated puposely to create the illusion of the mantra. :thumbsdown:

Here is a clip of the entire shoulder rotation into contact.

The question..............

IS the shoulder complex assisting whipping the hands into contact?

http://i19.tinypic.com/7y6fuic.gif

Or is the illusion being created that the the hands and arms doing all the work "bypassing the shoulders" as shown here in these trucated illusions?

http://i17.tinypic.com/89j5y0o.gifhttp://i7.tinypic.com/6ln0fit.gif

You decide.

http://i19.tinypic.com/7y6fuic.gifhttp://i7.tinypic.com/6ln0fit.gif

I say "it's a bill of goods"............

CoachB25

12-31-2007, 09:11 PM

CoachB25,

I would like to read these comments. Would you please direct me to the site where they appear.

Thanks, joof

No, I can't but I can give you his name. It is T. Inohiza and I believe he has written several times on this subject. I don't recall which article or year he wrote about the casting of the rod. However, it would have to have been sometime after 2000. He works extensively in Japanese Baseball and I know he studies both pitching and hitting. Sorry I can't be more help.

BoardMember

01-01-2008, 02:34 AM

In this clip do the hips really make the shoulder "hunch backward" into rotation?

http://i13.tinypic.com/6phjtpe.gif

In this clip, are the shoulders really "bypassed"? Or is the stretch reflex from hip torque signaling the shoulder complex to go, assisting the whipping of the arms/hands/bathead into contact?........

http://i14.tinypic.com/86tapso.gif

BoardMember

01-01-2008, 02:45 AM

In this clip do the hips really make the shoulder "hunch backward" into rotation?

http://i4.tinypic.com/6sq6gyu.gif

In this clip, are the shoulders really "bypassed"? Or is the stretch reflex from hip torque signaling the shoulder complex to go, assisting the whipping of the arms/hands/bathead into contact?........

http://i7.tinypic.com/80wb60y.gif

swingbuilder

01-01-2008, 08:13 AM

the shoulder ARE bypassed in the clip because they have essentually done their job

Yep, you got it. They did their job. They resisted rotation for as long as they could. Way to go BM.

and your close on the assisting part.

Now if we would just add a big sway into the load we would be set:noidea

jbooth

01-01-2008, 01:16 PM

They resisted rotation for as long as they could.

Which is about 2/100ths of a second after the hips turn. A REALLY long time.

Maybe a tenth of the duration of the swing from start to contact.

swingbuilder

01-01-2008, 01:29 PM

Im just glad to see you acknowledged that the shoulders sole purpose is to resist the rotation. Way to go Jim!!

FiveFrameSwing

01-01-2008, 01:29 PM

Which is about 2/100ths of a second after the hips turn. A REALLY long time.

Maybe a tenth of the duration of the swing from start to contact.

That's likely just long enough to pick up the slack between various segments of the kinetic link.

It would be tough for anyone to argue that the "rotational sequence" is anything other than hips-trunk-shoulders-hands-bat.

Before I receive 'comments' on that last sentence please note the use of the words "Rotational Sequence".

FiveFrameSwing

01-01-2008, 01:49 PM

DeRenne:

The ideal Kinetic Link produces high bat velocity by the sequential transfer of energy from the strong and heavier body segments (leg and trunk) to the arms and finally to the bat.

This energy generation begins at the feet, the base of support. This energy is sequentially transferred through the legs, hips, trunk, shoulders, arms, hands, and lastly out into the bat as velocity. Energy increases through the “linked” body segments, so that maximum velocity is transferred to the bat.

The Kinetic Link, therefore, explains how a high bat velocity is produced. This is the importance of the Kinetic Link. For years, hitting coaches have emphasized the importance of quick hands to generate high bat velocities. Quick hands are important since they are the last link in the Kinetic Link. But, the critical concept to understand is that the velocity transferred into the bat comes from the rotating body segments sequentially transferring energy into the hands and bat.

This sequential transfer of energy from one body segment to another is initiated in the stride.

BoardMember

01-01-2008, 02:48 PM

I'm getting somewhat tired of hearing this term "Slack".

Here is a question. Which is it?

A.) Does the Kinetic Link more closely resemble a chain being pulled from slack to taught?

Or

B.) Does the Kinetic Link resemble a set of blasting caps wired in series, tripping the balistics of human bio-mechanics as they are signaled?

An answer of A or B will suffice............

Which is it? Be careful. You may not like your own answer........

DeRenne:

The ideal Kinetic Link produces high bat velocity by the sequential transfer of energy from the strong and heavier body segments (leg and trunk) to the arms and finally to the bat.

This energy generation begins at the feet, the base of support. This energy is sequentially transferred through the legs, hips, trunk, shoulders, arms, hands, and lastly out into the bat as velocity. Energy increases through the “linked” body segments, so that maximum velocity is transferred to the bat.

The Kinetic Link, therefore, explains how a high bat velocity is produced. This is the importance of the Kinetic Link. For years, hitting coaches have emphasized the importance of quick hands to generate high bat velocities. Quick hands are important since they are the last link in the Kinetic Link. But, the critical concept to understand is that the velocity transferred into the bat comes from the rotating body segments sequentially transferring energy into the hands and bat.

This sequential transfer of energy from one body segment to another is initiated in the stride.

StevieBaseball

01-01-2008, 03:31 PM

Now that I've made my first post....the second one seems easier. Don't yell at me.

I think slack represents the time it takes a bent taught chain, with several lengths, to straighten.

RayR

01-01-2008, 04:14 PM

Now that I've made my first post....the second one seems easier. Don't yell at me.

I think slack represents the time it takes a bent taught chain, with several lengths, to straighten.

Not yelling at you at all.

I don't think that thinking of bent chain with slack that needs to be straightened is appropriate.

Slack conveys separation which conveys a sense of pause between actions.

BM's blasting caps is more appropriate. Posture is the charge.

swingbuilder

01-01-2008, 04:29 PM

BM you can taught the chain from slack. I'll let my hips take the slack out and get taut because the shoulders resisted the rotation.

StevieBaseball

01-01-2008, 04:39 PM

Not yelling at you at all.

I don't think that thinking of bent chain with slack that needs to be straightened is appropriate.

Slack conveys separation which conveys a sense of pause between actions.

BM's blasting caps is more appropriate. Posture is the charge.

What about the number of links? Too many links seems to me to cause a delay.

jbooth

01-01-2008, 05:40 PM

Im just glad to see you acknowledged that the shoulders sole purpose is to resist the rotation. Way to go Jim!!

Uh, not quite what I said. They resist rotation until the hips make them move, then they fire like an unwinding spring and pull the hands around and quickly catch up with the hips. The statement, "a REALLY long time" was a facetious, sarcastic remark. They resist for a fraction of a second, and only at the start of the swing.

BoardMember

01-01-2008, 06:47 PM

BM you can taught the chain from slack. I'll let my hips take the slack out and get taut because the shoulders resisted the rotation.

Just as I thought. You (and probably others) are afraid of the answer.

Just answer the question SB:

Here is a question. Which is it?

A.) Does the Kinetic Link/Chain more closely resemble a chain being pulled from slack to taught?

Or

B.) Does the Kinetic Link/Chain resemble a set of blasting caps wired in series, tripping the balistics of human bio-mechanics as they are signaled?

An answer of A or B will suffice............

In the words of your boss:

You are in Jepordy here SB. A wrong answer could be devistating.....

OR WILL YOU AVOID.........

StevieBaseball

01-01-2008, 06:54 PM

Board Member,

Glad to see you're back.

Could you help me? I think taking links out of the chain would be quicker.

Am I wrong?

FiveFrameSwing

01-01-2008, 06:54 PM

I'm getting somewhat tired of hearing this term "Slack".

I'm not seeing where I used the word "slack" in this post.

BoardMember

01-01-2008, 06:59 PM

Stevie, if someone were to believe that the swing, and the kinetic linkage that drives it, is like a loose chain (slacked) that needs to be pulled taught, your statement would be true.

If one believes that the kinetic linkage is like blasting caps "wired in series" that fire as they are signaled, this would not be an issue. They would fire "almost simaltaineously" causing a series of balistic movements.

You're new here, and I'm not really asking you to know this answer. This question is to all the "SLACK" supporters......

They know who they are.........

So far, I've only received ONE answer, though many have seen the question.

Best Regards.........

What about the number of links? Too many links seems to me to cause a delay.

BoardMember

01-01-2008, 07:03 PM

Here you go Five. You aren't the only one who claims that there is "slack" that needs to be "pulled out" of the swing.

Richard calls it "slop".

Did you answer my question? A or B?

That's likely just long enough to pick up the slack between various segments of the kinetic link.

FiveFrameSwing

01-01-2008, 07:03 PM

I'm not seeing where I used the word "slack" in this post.

My bad. You were referring to a different post.

The reference of the term slack in that post was meant to imply that the shoulders don't resist for long and are pulled along by the hip rotation.

Probably not the best choice of words, but I thought it was understood.

StevieBaseball

01-01-2008, 07:05 PM

Thank you sir.

But, wouldn't a shorter string of blasting caps be quicker than a longer one.

That is really what I was asking.

Seems true to me whether it's chain links or blasting caps....at least to some degree.

FiveFrameSwing

01-01-2008, 07:07 PM

Here you go Five. You aren't the only one who claims that there is "slack" that needs to be "pulled out" of the swing.

Richard calls it "slop".

Did you answer my question? A or B?

I'm not doging your question.

I can't seem to envision what you mean by answer 'B'. Blasting caps???

BoardMember

01-01-2008, 07:10 PM

No Harm 5. I just heard "that word" again, and listen to how the "shoulders" are not an engine, and want to know the answer to my question, from everyone.

It will quickly show me who understands what, what they think happens in the swing, and how it happens.

We'll see who answers, and with what answer. If anyone dares.......:think::cool:

My bad. You were referring to a different post.

The reference of the term slack in that post was meant to imply that the shoulders don't resist for long and are pulled along by the hip rotation.

Probably not the best choice of words, but I thought it was understood.

FiveFrameSwing

01-01-2008, 07:10 PM

I'm not doging your question.

I can't seem to envision what you mean by answer 'B'. Blasting caps???

Perhaps by this you mean that one link is decelerating while the next link is accelerating and the transfer continues on a particular path? If so, then I'll go with that answer.

FiveFrameSwing

01-01-2008, 07:16 PM

Here you go Five. You aren't the only one who claims that there is "slack" that needs to be "pulled out" of the swing.

Richard calls it "slop".

Did you answer my question? A or B?

I can't go with 'A' because the Kinetic Link simply isn't about just taking up slack.

The reality is that each segment along the link moves faster than the prior link. One link decelerates while the next link in the chain accelerates. To me it's like each link is jumping off of a higher base. If this is what you mean by 'B', then I'll go with that answer.

What the heck do you really mean by referencing blasting caps????

BoardMember

01-01-2008, 07:19 PM

Oh OK. Do you know what "blasting caps" are?

If not, they are inessence a small explosive devices (or signals) that when fired themselves, initiate the main explosive charges they are connected to.

Buildings are brought down by placing large explosive charges in certain locations. Those large explosives are fired by blasting caps wired in series to each larger charge, for a controled balistic demolition

Is the Kinetic Linkage a "chain to be pulled taught"? Or a series of balistic actions creating one BIG BANG called the swing........????:shhh:

I'm not doging your question.

I can't seem to envision what you mean by answer 'B'. Blasting caps???D

BoardMember

01-01-2008, 07:31 PM

Stevie, we've been discussing the "mechanical advantage" of having lead arm extension. A shorter string would be "quicker", but NOT more powerfull.

Think of the leverage used in a shovel. Long handle, short blade.

A long arm creates a bigger mechanical advantage.

But a slower swing when used early.......

Thank you sir.

But, wouldn't a shorter string of blasting caps be quicker than a longer one.

That is really what I was asking.

Seems true to me whether it's chain links or blasting caps....at least to some degree.

FiveFrameSwing

01-01-2008, 07:35 PM

Oh OK. Do you know what "blasting caps" are?

If not, they are inessence a small explosive devices (or signals) that when fired themselves, initiate the main explosive charges they are connected to.

Buildings are brought down by placing large explosive charges in certain locations. Those large explosives are fired by blasting caps wired in series to each larger charge, for a controled balistic demolition

Is the Kinetic Linkage a "chain to be pulled taught"? Or a series of balistic actions creating one BIG BANG called the swing........????:shhh:

D

Silly me ... I wasn't aware that blasting caps were wired in a series to each larger charge.

I'll go with 'B'. Who wouldn't?

BoardMember

01-02-2008, 12:12 AM

Silly me ... I wasn't aware that blasting caps were wired in a series to each larger charge.

Here's Willie with a famous warning:

Willie Mays on "Blasting Caps" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vn_SIBXPRns)

BoardMember

01-02-2008, 12:21 AM

I'll go with 'B'. Who wouldn't?

See this post for the answer:

http://www.baseball-fever.com/showpost.php?p=1082190&postcount=69

Slapper23

01-02-2008, 05:54 AM

Coach (Board),

I said I wasn't going to post anymore, but here I go doing it anyway. I get what Richard means by his "shoulders bypassed" definition. Could it be described better? Maybe. In regard to shoulder turn powering the swing in the kinetic chain, I believe there is something going on in the clips of the MLB hitters you described that is vastly different than what Englishbey teaches. This difference, IMO, can be clearly seen when you compare clips of Englishbey swinging to the MLB clips.

In the Englishbey clips, shoulder turn and lead arm pull is powering the swing as momentum works up from the middle. Shoulder turn is not being resisted in his swings, but instead he is pulling and turning. I would say the MLB hitters are resisting shoulder turn as stretch is created by the opening of the hips and as they quickly turn the bat to quickly get the hands flat at the beginning of the swing. Richard calls it "rotating the triangle", whereas I use the above description of "get the hands flat as quickly as possible" and a cue of "replace elbows" - which means as the lead elbow is down and the back elbow is up going into loading/scap loading/running start, the elbows quickly switch positions going into the beginning of the swing as the lead elbow now goes up and the back elbow comes down. This in combination with lateral tilt, in effect, works to get the hands flat as quickly as possible - which, at the same time, allows the upper body to resist opening the shoulders too soon - which is what Epstein gets at in his "wind the rubber band" description - the hips lead the way, creating stretch as shoulder turn is resisted with the hands staying back and getting flat.

This, to me, is the big difference in PCR teaching and the actual MLB swing sequence. PCR leaves out a critical link, IMO.

Mike

Chris O'Leary

01-02-2008, 08:04 AM

not one bit. again, the shoulders are a slave to the hands and the hips.

I agree.

The muscles of the shoulders are primarily the muscles of the rotator cuff. While they are working to position the upper arm, they aren't generating any force.

However, it does get a little messy because some of the upper arm muscles connect into the shoulder complex.

FiveFrameSwing

01-02-2008, 08:07 AM

Chris O'Leary

01-02-2008, 08:14 AM

No, I can't but I can give you his name. It is T. Inohiza and I believe he has written several times on this subject. I don't recall which article or year he wrote about the casting of the rod. However, it would have to have been sometime after 2000. He works extensively in Japanese Baseball and I know he studies both pitching and hitting. Sorry I can't be more help.

I have looked at his stuff in the context of pitching.

Here's the link...

http://www.ino.loxinfo.co.th/

swingbuilder

01-02-2008, 08:49 AM

I wouldnt put a blasting cap on the shoulders.

BM, have you "taught" the chain to take out the slack yet so that the chain can be "taut"?:dance

JeffK 29

01-02-2008, 09:33 AM

Wow. Lots of good info. I'll go back to my tee and put it to use. My wife wont let me use the blasting caps in the basement...

JK29

FiveFrameSwing

01-02-2008, 09:55 AM

I wouldnt put a blasting cap on the shoulders.

BM, have you "taught" the chain to take out the slack yet so that the chain can be "taut"?:dance

BM has correctly emphasized that the Kinetic Link is much more than the taking up of slack.

Please give the concept more thought.

Also understand that the swing is a sequence of movements, and that each movement is important. While I respect that certain movements have your point of emphasis, consider DeRenne's perspective when he states that each segment within the Kinetic Link is equally important in that if they were removed the result would be unfavorable.

BoardMember

01-02-2008, 10:55 AM

The muscles of the shoulders are primarily the muscles of the rotator cuff. While they are working to position the upper arm, they aren't generating any force.

HUH? It's not quite that simple Chris.......You surprise me. I'm assuming your pitching theory EXCLUDES any action by the shoulder complex as well right? Give me a break.........

The bone structure of the shoulder complex includes:

The Clavicle, The Scapula, and The Humerus, X2.

http://i5.tinypic.com/6xzugk2.gif

15 Muscles move and stabilize the scapula. 9 Muscles provide for Glenohumeral motion (upper arm) and 6 support the scapula on the thorax. I'll avoid naming all them for obvious reasons (post length/complexity).

Saying that the shoulder complex is "bypassed" in the swing and "aren't generating any force" is just a crock.........

If you'd like to further "simplify" the matter, lets just say hitting is primarily "FEET AND BAT HEAD".

It's exactly the same as "hips and hands"........

Bypassing the shoulder complex is bypassing one of THE most important force generators of the swing. The shoulder complex is doing tons of work.

Arm and Hand action IS SLAVE to the shoulder complex.........Period. The shoulder complex is absolutely NOT slave to the hips. Unless of course your understanding of Kinetics is "taking up the slack".

Can you hit without turning your hips???? ABSOLUTELY. Why? Because the shoulder compex is MOVING and CAUSING the arms to work, adding force to everything above the thorax.

Don't turn the hips, and "kill" the shoulder complex and watch what happens..........Kill it all together. No stretch reflex from the mucsle groups of the shoulder complex......No arm action GENERATED from the shoulder complex (you know, adding force)........And see what happens.

The entire "shoulders are bypassed" theory is rediculous......
:eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:

Look at this picture again and tell yourself, NOTHING in the shoulder complex is adding force to this swing........You WILL be lying to yourself, and everyone else.........

http://i5.tinypic.com/6xzugk2.gif

FiveFrameSwing

01-02-2008, 11:51 AM

Saying that the shoulder complex is "bypassed" in the swing and "aren't generating any force" is just a crock.........

DeRenne also wrote the following:

Muscle activity in the upper extremity muscles of trunk (pectoralis major) and back (latissimus dorsi) and the right and left triceps (lateral and long heads) muscles of two right-handed professional players with eight years of experience and two novice batters were studied during the batting swing.

1) The left triceps (lead arm) muscles (long heads) recorded the greatest action potentials for all subjects and muscles studied.

2) By strengthening the left triceps muscles (long heads), it would appear that right-handed baseball batters could increase the force that they could transfer to the bat.

randy

01-02-2008, 12:12 PM

this is all is way over my head. I'm just a dad of two sons who play pretty well, but I'll throw my .02 in.
anything the arms do, the shoulders are involved in, so to say they are completely bypassed is ridiculous. However, I never mention them to either son, because a shoulder swinger is not going to do well.
The front foot drops, the hips begin to rotate into footplant. the hips will begin to pull the shoulders into rotation(how far they rotate depends on location) and the hands fire when it is time(lead arm extends as if throwing a frisbee). Seems to work for them, anything more complex gets them thinking too much.
Sorry, I was just bored and felt like posting. Please continue...

swingbuilder

01-02-2008, 01:32 PM

Good post Randy.

No one is suggesting the shoulders do not turn. They are just not responsible for their turning and to focus on using the shoulders to swing the bat is whats really ridiculous.

No one is suggesting opposition to the kinetic link. I'm just saying the shoulders do not swing the bat. They do what they do as a result of the hands and the hips and since BM needs ego stroking and ownership we will say Barrel and Feet. We will let him explain the relationship between hips and feet:shrug:

RayR

01-02-2008, 01:40 PM

FiveFrameSwing

01-02-2008, 02:00 PM

Are you really suggesting that the hands move the shoulders around? C,mon, really??

Here too?

http://www.ramellibandr.com/SHA/bonillaBatBlur.gif

Consider that this batter is doing a good job "maintaining lead arm extension" as the hands move forward.

It sort of drives home the point that the shoulder is rotating.

StevieBaseball

01-02-2008, 02:01 PM

jofus13

01-02-2008, 02:07 PM

Are you really suggesting that the hands move the shoulders around? C,mon, really??

Here too?

http://www.ramellibandr.com/SHA/bonillaBatBlur.gif

You know...I'm not saying that I agree with the shoulders not doing anything in the swing..but, if you watch the shoulders in relation to the upper body in that clip, they don't really move that much. The back shoulder drops the back elbow down and the lead shoulder pulls the lead elbow up a little, but it does seem like most of the "frisbee throwing" motion actually happens after contact with the ball, as the bat extends.

Interesting.....

Oh, and I'm gonna try this statement out on my 9 year old when I'm working on his swing :)

"15 Muscles move and stabilize the scapula. 9 Muscles provide for Glenohumeral motion (upper arm) and 6 support the scapula on the thorax. I'll avoid naming all them for obvious reasons (post length/complexity)."

I'm sure that will make it clearer for him ;)

FiveFrameSwing

01-02-2008, 02:13 PM

Go into more detail about what you see happening with Bonilla.

Let me give it a shot. Folks can take target practice at me in the sake of learning.

This batter is attempting to maintain the extension in his lead arm.

Now he could rotate his constant-angled-arm while keeping the shoulder motionless, but is that the fastest way to rotate the arm forward? No, it is not the fastest way.

Better is for the shoulder to rotate and for the constant-angled-lead-arm to push against the shoulder and try to sling shot itself forward.

Poor use of words, but I do believe that the shoulder is a link and that the body uses it to maximize swing efficiency.

Now, what is going on in this batter's mind? He's likely not focusing on his shoulder. But I'm not in his head to really know. Likely what he is doing has been burned into muscle memory and his focus is on hitting the snot out of the ball. Hence I can understand why some keep questioning the shoulder, since to them it is a no teach.

swingbuilder

01-02-2008, 02:27 PM

Are you really suggesting that the hands move the shoulders around? C,mon, really??

Here too?

http://www.ramellibandr.com/SHA/bonillaBatBlur.gif

Lets imagine ( for those who dont have an agenda ) for a moment here, if thats ok, of taking the Bonilla clip here and doing a couple of things with it.

But a fact you have to understand is that this Bonilla swing IS NOT a GAME SWING.

Now imagine Bonilla keeping his shoulders tilted like they are in the last frame of the clip. Now, if you will, take him back by rotating his hips back in the direction from which they started in the first frame of the clip of Bonilla above. But make sure you keep his shoulders tilted after moving him back to frame one.

The shoulders have not rotated and they don't rotate until after contact. They have been bypassed in the process but doesn't mean that the Kinetic link has been compromised.

jofus13

01-02-2008, 02:33 PM

Bearing in mind that I am still trying to figure this stuff out myself (so that I can teach my kids, and probably others, better)....

In looking at lead arms in some of the swings on this site and others, I am noticing that the upper arm doesn't move away from the chest until after contact. I'm not saying the shoulders don't do anything, but am I seeing that right, or am I confused?

I guess it may move a small amount away from the chest as the hands "flatten", but that seems more of a "see-saw" action with the rear arm dropping the elbow, and a product of body tilt, rather than generating any power by itself.

I'm not arguing either way, I'm just trying to figure this stuff out so I can simplify it for my young'ins :)

Edit>>Watch the clip of Rose from above and watch his shoulders in relation to his upper body...

RayR

01-02-2008, 02:49 PM

BoardMember

01-02-2008, 03:07 PM

Point of Interest:

Watch Bonilla's front side (side of his rib cage) from his belt line to his arm pit. See his side stretch as the shoulders rotate? The stretch you see is the result of the front shoulder rotating back. This helps drive the back shoulder forward. The shoulders and hips are turning together , but are rotating independently of eachother.

http://www.ramellibandr.com/SHA/bonillaBatBlur.gif

No, they are NOT rotating. Didn't you read this? :confused::

The shoulders have not rotated and they don't rotate until after contact. They have been bypassed in the process

It's called "Dogma (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dogma)"

FiveFrameSwing

01-02-2008, 03:16 PM

No, they are NOT rotating. Didn't you read this?:

Ray ... I'm pretty sure BM is jesting with this response.

FiveFrameSwing

01-02-2008, 03:17 PM

In looking at lead arms in some of the swings on this site and others, I am noticing that the upper arm doesn't move away from the chest until after contact. I'm not saying the shoulders don't do anything, but am I seeing that right, or am I confused?

I believe you are seeing this correctly.

I believe that Yeager makes a point of this as well in one of his DVDs.

jbooth

01-02-2008, 03:40 PM

No one is suggesting the shoulders do not turn. They are just not responsible for their turning and to focus on using the shoulders to swing the bat is whats really ridiculous.

Finally, you're communicating with something that makes sense. Why haven't you just said that all along? Saying they are "bypassed" is just nonsense.

No one is suggesting opposition to the kinetic link.

That's nice to hear also. Because if something is "bypassed" it can't be part of a link.

I'm just saying the shoulders do not swing the bat. They do what they do as a result of the hands and the hips

Part of this is partly correct. The hips force the shoulders to turn regardless of how much you try to resist letting the shoulders turn, but they don't just turn from the hip movement. The obliques contract (they stretched during the resistance phase), instinctively and unleash force that powers the shoulders in addition to the hip power that got them started, but I agree that this muscle action is instinctive and you don't have to think much about it.

The part that is still confusing because it isn't literally correct, is your statement about the hands. The hands/arms provide absolutely ZERO, ZIP, NADA, force that moves the shoulders or hips, prior to contact. The arms and hands apply force to the bat, but they don't move the shoulders. The shoulders are pulling the arms around, but force IS also added by the arms and hands to move the bat WHILE the shoulders are turning.

It's Hips, Handle, Head. The hips turn the shoulders, the shoulders move the arms, and the arms move the hands/bat.

jbooth

01-02-2008, 03:49 PM

Hey Ray.....I'm a newbie....forgive me if I ask a stupid question.

I agree with you.

What do you see? Go into more detail about what you see happening with Bonilla.

How does one resolve this shoulder stuff?

I see both the hips and the shoulders turning. How do we decide which is doing what?

I really liked him when he played.

The kinetic chain, stated by more than one person with a PhD in Human Performance is;

the hips turn, which then turn the shoulders (if you hold them still and let the hips start them), which then move the arms and hands (again you have to hold the hands back and let the shoulders start them), which move the bat. It's really pretty simple, but not that easy to execute well. MLB hitters have the timing and synchronization down perfect. Most of us do not. Our chain usually isn't a perfectly synched movement.

If you leave a link out, or don't let the energy flow from one link to the next, in proper synch, you won't hit at your optimum potential.

I think most people here agree with the above, it's just that there are a million opinions and descriptions as to how to describe it, and how to teach it.

jbooth

01-02-2008, 03:54 PM

You know...I'm not saying that I agree with the shoulders not doing anything in the swing..but, if you watch the shoulders in relation to the upper body in that clip, they don't really move that much. The back shoulder drops the back elbow down and the lead shoulder pulls the lead elbow up a little, but it does seem like most of the "frisbee throwing" motion actually happens after contact with the ball, as the bat extends.

Interesting.....

Oh, and I'm gonna try this statement out on my 9 year old when I'm working on his swing :)

"15 Muscles move and stabilize the scapula. 9 Muscles provide for Glenohumeral motion (upper arm) and 6 support the scapula on the thorax. I'll avoid naming all them for obvious reasons (post length/complexity)."

I'm sure that will make it clearer for him ;)

The entire swing, from start to contact with the ball, is only a 90 degree turn of the hips and shoulders. So, of course you could say the shoulders don't turn much. Neither do the hips, but if you swing with just arm power and don't get those hips and shoulders moving first, you won't hit it very far.

jbooth

01-02-2008, 03:57 PM

Lets imagine ( for those who dont have an agenda ) for a moment here, if thats ok, of taking the Bonilla clip here and doing a couple of things with it.

But a fact you have to understand is that this Bonilla swing IS NOT a GAME SWING.

Now imagine Bonilla keeping his shoulders tilted like they are in the last frame of the clip. Now, if you will, take him back by rotating his hips back in the direction from which they started in the first frame of the clip of Bonilla above. But make sure you keep his shoulders tilted after moving him back to frame one.

The shoulders have not rotated and they don't rotate until after contact. They have been bypassed in the process but doesn't mean that the Kinetic link has been compromised.

Now, you're back to nonsense. Just when I thought you were getting it.

jofus13

01-02-2008, 04:35 PM

it's just that there are a million opinions and descriptions as to how to describe it, and how to teach it.

That's the most accurate quote that I've seen yet :)

Jim, it seems to me that rather than the shoulders "turning" on their own, it's the upper body, shoulders included, that is turning as a unit. Then, around the point of contact (depending on pitch location, among other things), the upper body stops turning, at which point the shoulders begin to ...separate from the body, for lack of a better description, and turn around the body as the bat is extended in the general direction of the pitcher, as part of the follow through.

But, I'm thinking through most of this in my head, so my sequence or timing may be a little off.

BoardMember

01-02-2008, 04:49 PM

Now, you're back to nonsense. Just when I thought you were getting it.

You mean like "the arms move, just not by way of the arms"? :rofl:

swingbuilder

01-02-2008, 04:53 PM

Your just blind because you see movement in the shoulders and you call it rotation. How the shoulders move and how the hips rotate is not the same UNTIL a point at and after contact and yet it does not compromise the kinetic link.

RayR

01-02-2008, 05:22 PM

StevieBaseball

01-02-2008, 05:24 PM

Looks to me like some serious separation in the right side clip.

FiveFrameSwing

01-02-2008, 05:31 PM

Watch Ortiz's front shoulder in right side clip.

The bat is sucked into the shoulders rotation. Better posture, better shoulder turn, better bat path.

http://ramellibandr.com/SHA/DOrtiz2002vs2004.gif

I think by saying that the bat is sucked into the shoulder's rotation that you are talking about the swing plane.

To me the bat is an extension of the lead arm and the main hitting lever runs from the front shoulder, to elbow, to wrist/hand. Given that one trys to maintain the hinge angle (angle between wrist & bat) for an extended period it would seem that the bat gets "sucked into" the rotation of the main hitting lever ... that being the lead arm.

StevieBaseball

01-02-2008, 05:43 PM

Watch Ortiz's front shoulder in right side clip.

The bat is sucked into the shoulders rotation. Better posture, better shoulder turn, better bat path.

http://ramellibandr.com/SHA/DOrtiz2002vs2004.gif

Seems like they start crouched over and at some point they are out of the crouch.

At what point do they go from crouched over to nearly erect.

Go Cardinals

01-02-2008, 06:13 PM

Watch Ortiz's front shoulder in right side clip.

The bat is sucked into the shoulders rotation. Better posture, better shoulder turn, better bat path.

http://ramellibandr.com/SHA/DOrtiz2002vs2004.gif

Of course the shoulders rotate if you get sawed off. We're looking at a man that hit a ball out of the park the the majority of the people in the world wood break their wood bat on!

Look, 1st picture of pujols at poc he rotated his shoulders. Second is slightly after contact... yes he rotated his shoulders, but he was sawed off. Normally this doesn't happen to pujols.

Go Cardinals

01-02-2008, 06:14 PM

Go Cardinals

01-02-2008, 06:25 PM

BoardMember

01-02-2008, 06:40 PM

Your just blind because you see movement in the shoulders and you call it rotation.

From launch to contact, the shoulders ROTATE EXACTLY the same amount as the hips. And more after contact.

But of course the hips are rotating the shoulders aren't. :choke:

Like Jim said to you before:

DO YOU KNOW HOW THAT SOUNDS?

I know I know, the shouders aren't responsible for themselves! :rofl: :dismay:

Well guess what dude, I got news for ya: The hips aren't responsible for themselves either! :think::cool:

Is this rotating? If I tip it's axis 30 degrees is it then tilting instead of rotating????

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/02/Rotating_Sphere.gif

You what I've learned here? You just can't argue with "dogma" or "ignorance"........They are both blind for different reasons.........

swingbuilder

01-02-2008, 07:03 PM

From launch to contact, the shoulders ROTATE EXACTLY the same amount as the hips. And more after contact.

But of course the hips are rotating the shoulders aren't. :choke:

Like Jim said to you before:

DO YOU KNOW HOW THAT SOUNDS?

I know I know, the shouders aren't responsible for themselves! :rofl: :dismay:

Well guess what dude, I got news for ya: The hips aren't responsible for themselves either! :think::cool:

Is this rotating? If I tip it's axis 30 degrees is it then tilting instead of rotating????

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/02/Rotating_Sphere.gif

You what I've learned here? You just can't argue with "dogma" or "ignorance"........They are both blind for different reasons.........

yep, this post is a fine example of both of those.

FiveFrameSwing

01-02-2008, 09:10 PM

Seems like they start crouched over and at some point they are out of the crouch.

At what point do they go from crouched over to nearly erect.

Funny that you say this. DeRenne wrote the following (below) and I'm interested in learning more on this topic.

"The objective during the axis of rotation is to maintain dynamic balance with as straight and upright body position as possible. This body position is critical for good swing mechanics. Therefore, the “coach-hitter teach” is for the hitter to maintain his up-right posture throughout the swing. If the hitter is executing a good axis of rotation, the hitter’s CG will be equidistant between his feet (no excess leaning forward or backward), and there will be no side-to side sagittal movement. In addition the height of the pitch doesn’t matter to the body’s posture. Even on the low pitch, maintain a “tall” (upper body) and fairly straight posture for the proper axis."

BoardMember

01-02-2008, 09:19 PM

Funny that you say this. DeRenne wrote the following (below) and I'm interested in learning more on this topic.

"The objective during the axis of rotation is to maintain dynamic balance with as straight and upright body position as possible. This body position is critical for good swing mechanics. Therefore, the “coach-hitter teach” is for the hitter to maintain his up-right posture throughout the swing. If the hitter is executing a good axis of rotation, the hitter’s CG will be equidistant between his feet (no excess leaning forward or backward), and there will be no side-to side sagittal movement. In addition the height of the pitch doesn’t matter to the body’s posture. Even on the low pitch, maintain a “tall” (upper body) and fairly straight posture for the proper axis."

This is an example of why EVERYONE has a flaw in the theory of hitting........Myself excluded of course......:rofl:

FiveFrameSwing

01-02-2008, 09:29 PM

This is an example of why EVERYONE has a flaw in the theory of hitting........Myself excluded of course......:rofl:

Interesting. I've ready that paragraph from DeRenne several times and couldn't make sense of it. I thought someone here would shine some light on what I was potentially missing.

jbooth

01-02-2008, 09:39 PM

Interesting. I've ready that paragraph from DeRenne several times and couldn't make sense of it. I thought someone here would shine some light on what I was potentially missing.

Yeah, that part of DeRenne's stuff puzzled me too. The only thing I can think of is that when we see "up-right" we are probably thinking "vertical" and he may not be intending that.

You know how some kids hunch over with rounded backs? He probably means to straighten up, but not necessarily meant stand with a vertical spine.

I'm just guessing here.:noidea

mike28nc

01-03-2008, 12:23 AM

Steve Englishbey

01-03-2008, 05:38 AM

The quote above is from Boardmember.

And I thoroughly agree with his statement.

As well as agreeing with pretty much EVERYTHING that I have seen him write as regards numerous things he has written about how the scapular complex functions in an elite level swing.

["Scapular complex" is also known as the shoulder complex ---either term includes the triaxial joints ---some list it as having actually four joints--of the entire shoulder region ,as well as all the muscles proximally attached to that region .And I think Boardmember pointed out the muscles of the entire region recently here]

I also thoroughly agree with his numerous arguments that he has waged both here and at eteamz fast pitch against those "high level biomechnical experts" at Hitting -MIS Illustrated.

He first got my attention when he put up a clip at eteamz of someone sawing ---to point out an example of "scapula loading and unloading ".

And what was interesting to me is that his thoughts were purely independent of my stuff" or what comes from setpro and Paul Nyman .

Meaning that he did not get his info from me or my website .Or from setpro.

The fact that we 'see" things very similarly as regards how the shoulders actually function in a good swing ,renders the following quote very far off the mark .Very far:

"I believe there is something going on in the clips of the MLB hitters you described that is vastly different than what Englishbey teaches. "

From a conceptual standpoint -meaning what I have ACTUALLY written and demonstrated in terms of varoius aspects of "shoulder action "-----much of what Boardmember has written both here and at eteamz ,is VERY SIMILAR to much of what i have written .Or demonstrated by physically showing various functioning of the shoulder complex [on my website there are over two hours worth of video of such demonstrations ]

What I have written amounts to an avery large and fairly rigorous amount of citations from some of the best biomechanist ,physiotherapist ,and exercise /training specialists in the world--like Bruce Elliot ,Roger Bartlett , Roger Enoka and Eric Cressey etc et al.[And it includes many citations that come from Paul Nyman and Setpro as well.]

Citations that are SPECIFICALLY about how the shoulder complex functions in ballistic events like throwing ,hitting ,javalin , tennis ,golf.

What ALL these have in common ------and what ALL these experts point out --is how the transfer of force/momentum from the trunk to the distal ends [the implement] is inextricably LINKED to the scapular complex.

The scapular complex IS THE FUNCTIONAL LINK between the trunk/lower segments and the distal end .

Furthermore what ALL these events have in common ----and what ALL these experts have in common is the understanding that all these activities show a high degree of SCAPULA ABDUCTION AND ADDUCTION .

And their understanding is backed by numerous emg studies and fairly sophisticated 3d motion analysis and/or computer modeling studies.

If Mike Kennedy [slapper 23] wants to argue that he understands the functioning of the shoulder complex and all these experts and all the citations that are on my website better than these guys .As well as myself .As well as Paul Nyman -----then so be it .

Or as I have said in similar situations :"Let me fantasy continue ."

As regards application of the above information in the context of TEACHING AND DEVELOPMENT I'll point to this quote here:

"I believe there is something going on in the clips of the MLB hitters you described that is vastly different than what Englishbey teaches. This difference, IMO, can be clearly seen when you compare clips of Englishbey swinging to the MLB clips.

As I mentioned here in the "bonds vrs.Steve " comparison ,the notion that one can take that swing ---or to site another example commonly used in "straw man " fashion ,the one handed swing on my home page -----and then point out what I teach is patently absurd.

What I ACTUALLY TEACH AND ADVOCATE would have to do with the following [and this is by no means the TOTAL PICTURE as regards what I teach and advocate ]:

All the above citations and all of what I demonstrate ,eg "the Shoulder Action "demos wherein for example I am demonstrating glenhumeral joint "slotting " vrs.scapula ADDUCTION /ABDUCTION ,"vertical loading " ,the concept of "one move "loading and unloading " "static loading " with a minimum of eccentric action .And beyond this there are literally dozens of video clips of me showing swings wherein ,for example I show how to specifically work on lead scapula adduction to maintain connection .Or show swings wherein I am showing how to "blend " sitting into footplant ---with scapula action .Or demos as to how to specifically work on creating and maintaining the hinge angle. And so on and so on .

I dare say that there is NO website anywhere that has more information as regards how to "build " or develop a swing ,how to work at overcoming various kinds of inefficiencies that are common to many hitters .[And there will be more coming from my "swing experiment "that I have engaged in over the last 5 or so months .]

All of this ---and much more makes the following comment hard to fathom:

"In the Englishbey clips, shoulder turn and lead arm pull is powering the swing as momentum works up from the middle. Shoulder turn is not being resisted in his swings, but instead he is pulling and turning."

Which of the 50 or so clips of me swinging on my website do you have in mind here Mike ?

I have no idea as to how to even judge such a statement .

Or you talking about the swing onmy website wherein I am at contact in about 2and a half frames -----seeing that I started the unload with both heels off the ground [a swing demonstrating as to how one should try to cut the "amortization "time from load to unload ]?

Or are you talking about one of the swings wherein I am showing the "two tilts" that are actually part of many elite hitters as they unload ?

Or rmaybe you are taking your "cue "from those above you who point to the one -handed swing on my website .

The swing wherein I have explained elsewhere was a swing wherein the goal was distance and thus the tee is farther out in front and I WANTED lead arm extension and a somewhat wider radius ---so as to increase time and distance over which I applied force.

NONE of the one handed swings that I have done on the private side of my website look much at all like this swing and these parameters.[seeing that they are all about 3 to 4 frames to contact].

Dare I say a heretical and shocking revelation to Mike Kennedy here:Pcr ,Setpro ,Paul Nyman ,Me ,have NEVER ADVOCATED "tugging at the handle by pulling the lead shoulder around to power the swing ."

Thus another heretical and shocking revelation :Most of the people that I have worked with or have worked with guys [and women] who know my stuff pretty well,dont swing the bat in this manner.

Beyond this ,how in the world do you think you can stare at a computer and know what the kinetic activity is ,eg "shoulder turn and lead arm pull is powering the swing as momentum works up from the middle."

If your "analysis" is as regards the one handed swing [which I highly suspect it is ] ,EVEN THAT analysis is thoroughly incorrect .

The ball was hit about 300 feet.

Though lead arm extension did help some in creating that distance it is the MOST BASIC OF BIOMECHNICAL understanding that yeilds that the 300 foot distance was MAINLY a function of the energy of the torso [hip joints thru the scapular complex ].

"Pulling with the lead shoulder "---whatever the hell that means ---is something that I neither advocate .Nor is it what I am trying to do when I swing a bat .Nor does it create much powewr inand of itself .

ESPECIALLY if you mean by this so -called "pulling of the shoulder " lead deltoid ABDUCTION .As opposed to lead SCAPULA ADDUCTION acting "synergistically "with the rest of the torso .

But I suspect you do not know the difference between these two .

Finally as regards this quote :

"This, to me, is the big difference in PCR teaching and the actual MLB swing sequence. PCR leaves out a critical link, IMO."

As both Paul Nyman and myself have stated "there is no such thing as a PCR hitter " [to quote Paul himself] ----other than elite hitters who conform to the STANDARDS set forth by Paul Nyman .

The ONLY real exception to this that I know of is Robert Stock .Or to quote Greg Stock [the dad] ------"Paul taught me and I taught Robert."

What I TEACH and ADVOCATE is my APPLICATION of CONCEPTUAL information that comes from Setpro ---as well as it comes from many other sources ,the MOST important of which are THE PLAYERS THEMSELVES.

[It also includes my swinging the bat ---something that I am getting increasingly effective at doing .And if you are so inclined I will match eeven my worst swings with whatever you and some of your cohorts can put up .If you are going to define the expertise and effectiveness of a TEACHER SOLELY ON THE BASIS OF A COUPLE OF MY SWINGS,then go ahead and put your swing up for show and tell .Let us see what you teach Betteryet why dont YOU put some of YOUR stdents ,You CLAIM to be a teacher of hitting --yet in the 5 years or so of you being onthese websites you have put only one 8 year old up I think it was .]

It is the players themselves who force you to "wrestle "with alot of things that most of the "internet hiting experts" do not remotely even consider.

And I should add what should be BLATENTLY OBVIOUS to any reasonably intelligent person .

What elite hitters do and how they function is vastly different from what most young hitters do ---AND NEED TO PRACTICE IN ORDER TO DEVELOP .

Meaning these comparisons of of elite hitters to a ten year old or 16 year old and what they need to do to improve is patently absurd.

Its like comparing a world class sprinter or an Olympic gymnist ---and what they do and practice .

To someone starting out ,or someone who is average and trying to improve.

But ,I will say this about the effect that I have had on some hitters around the country :

There is a nine and eleven year old on my website that I would bet swing better than any student of Mike Kennedy or any of his cohorts.

There is the girl who broke all homerum records in Missouri high school by the time she was a juinior .

There is a guy who had never hit more than 5 home runs that hit 20 his senior year and was drafted a couple of years back .These are but a few of the reports that I get fairly often actually

And since I am not a big advertising guy ---this is the first time I have even said as much as I have said here on a website -----many of the people that I eventually hit with or come to my website ,come by way of word of mouth .Or they have run into some teams or some hitters who HAVE worked with me .Hitters who went about "simply turning into the ball" pretty damn effectively ."

steve

Slapper23

01-03-2008, 06:20 AM

Steve, thanks for the post. Wow, I definitley hit a nerve there. It wasn't my intent, but it was my intent to express my opinion as to what I see lacking in your teaching compared to what I see in MLB clips. I won't go through it again, as I already addressed it in the post you referenced.

I should say I believe a young hitter can improve with your teaching, but I do not believe it matches the MLB swing sequence. Maybe that's just my opinion, but I don't think so. The clip which best shows this difference is the Bonds/Steve comparison. As far as your one handed clip on your website, you did show you could pull it pretty far off a tee. I'll take your explanation for it.

I coach HS softball and in that regard, I do teach hitting. I do not teach hitters on the side for a fee. I have never posted a clip of one of my HS hitters or of my granddaughter, but that is my preference. I'm on these boards to learn more about the swing and in that search for more knowledge, I have and will continue to express Opinions.

You won't see me comparing my swing to you. A better comparison would be to compare your recent swings to clips of MLB hitters. Is the swing sequence and movements the same? That is telling, IMO. As Mark Hanson always said, "compare anything someone tells you about hitting to slo-mo video of the best." I have done that and I see a big difference in how MLB hitters load and unload compared to you. That doesn't make you a bad guy. Personally, I always liked you, but over time came to see differences in what you were teaching and what I was seeing in MLB swings. At this point in time, we will have to agree to disagree. I will say this, "shoulders bypassed" may not be the best description of what is happening in the MLB swing, but I do see what Richard to referring to....and I do believe in the kinetic chain.

Mike

FiveFrameSwing

01-03-2008, 08:53 AM

And I should add what should be BLATENTLY OBVIOUS to any reasonably intelligent person .

What elite hitters do and how they function is vastly different from what most young hitters do ---AND NEED TO PRACTICE IN ORDER TO DEVELOP .

Meaning these comparisons of of elite hitters to a ten year old or 16 year old and what they need to do to improve is patently absurd.

This is not blatently obvious to me. There are a lot of whacked out ideas out there that should be avoided.

You spoke of lead arm extension in your post. Just this week I measured a substantial increase in ball exit speed in over 10 hitters that introduced this to their swing. The results were substantial. I would only add to your comments on this that we haven't found it necessary to hit the ball further out in front.

Keep in mind that many of us have to deal with a lot of hair brain local hitting instructors, and the best way I've found to keep them honest is to apply the Hanson Principle.

The Hanson Principle:
“Always compare what anybody tells you about the swing to slow motion clips of the best hitters in the world”
-- Mark Hanson

Jake Patterson

01-03-2008, 09:02 AM

This is not blatently obvious to me. There are a lot of whacked out ideas out there that should be avoided.

You spoke of lead arm extension in your post. Just this week I measured a substantial increase in ball exit speed in over 10 hitters that introduced this to their swing. The results were substantial. I would only add to your comments on this that we haven't found it necessary to hit the ball further out in front.

Keep in mind that many of us have to deal with a lot of hair brain local hitting instructors, and the best way I've found to keep them honest is to apply the Hanson Principle.

The Hanson Principle:
“Always compare what anybody tells you about the swing to slow motion clips of the best hitters in the world”
-- Mark Hanson

Five,
How was this tested and measured???

FiveFrameSwing

01-03-2008, 09:15 AM

Five,
How was this tested and measured???

A radar gun was used to measure ball exit speeds.

RayR

01-03-2008, 10:10 AM

A radar gun was used to measure ball exit speeds.

How did this effect swing quickness?

FiveFrameSwing

01-03-2008, 10:35 AM

How did this effect swing quickness?

RayR, if I don’t answer your question adequately enough, then let me know.

The use of a radar gun to measure ball exit speed is not perfect.

First, it is possible that a student resort to a particular mechanic (e.g., “bat drag”) that wouldn’t work well in the batter’s box. To limit this from happening I as the instructor observe their swings to ensure that they are kinetically clean.

Second, it is possible that a student generates higher bat speeds but does not squarely hit the ball. From my perspective a ball not hit squarely is a swing flaw, and hence should receive a lower radar reading.

This system isn’t perfect. When ever possible I have my students hit into an open field. Weather limitations being what they are, we move indoors during the winter. I insert a radar gun based drill.

The assumption in using this drill is that ball exit speed is related to the distance that a ball would be driven.

I have been hesitant to add video only because the feedback to the students is not immediate and the group I am dealing with is growing quickly. That is of course not a great excuse, and I do intend to include video analysis to count the number of frames. While I’m not setup to give the student such feedback until their next session, I do recognize that this is a measure of swing efficiency.

I will add that the students enjoy this drill and will run several experiments. It has many students buy-in to removing mechanical deficiencies and enhancing their mechanics (e.g., maintaining lead arm extension, tilting the bat back towards the field as described by Donny [some incoming students were taught to lay the bat back towards the catcher and this drill quickly shows them how inferior that approach is], etc.). It truly is a great teaching tool in that students buy-in to what is being taught because they instantly see receive data that helps quantify their swing. This speeds up the overall learning process. I believe Steve wrote in an earlier post about the importance of quantifying and measuring performance improvements ... he was spot on with that comment. While this drill isn't perfect, it satisfies my objective of getting students to buy-in to cleaning up their swing deficiencies in a timely manner.

Mark H

01-03-2008, 12:20 PM

The Hanson Principle:
“Always compare what anybody tells you about the swing to slow motion clips of the best hitters in the world”
-- Mark Hanson

Don't forget Nyman's corollary (whose bedside manner grades better than Richards ;)). We can only see what we are capable of seeing according to our training and existing paradigm as well as the recognition that not everything can be seen in clips. Mike looks at the wall and sees blue while I see green. IOW, I look at a MLB clip and see what Steve describes. I read what Richard of the foul mouth on the net and shrinking violet demeanor in person says and I see little similarity to MLB clips. His stuff sounds to me like some of the arm swings that used to be, and often still are, taught in fp. His personal demos of his teachings belie his belief that he can "feel" what elite hitters are doing.

I should say the Hanson principle is flawed. It just happens to be the best tool I'm aware of for the average dad to use to separate the horse puckey from that which will help his kid reach his potential when he's trying to figure out who to study. I trust that most will apply this test well enough to ditch Rich and read Steve. History over the past year or so serves to confirm this trust.

Good luck all. Just dropped in briefly since my name was mentioned. I'm headed back to snow skiing and flying. Have an instrument rating to work on now that I've got the ppl and of course, the season starts shortly.

wogdoggy

01-03-2008, 12:28 PM

Don't forget Nyman's corollary (whose bedside manner grades better than Richards ;)). We can only see what we are capable of seeing according to our training and existing paradigm as well as the recognition that not everything can be seen in clips. Mike looks at the wall and sees blue while I see green. IOW, I look at a MLB clip and see what Steve describes. I read what Richard of the foul mouth on the net and shrinking violet demeanor in person says and I see little similarity to MLB clips. His stuff sounds to me like some of the arm swings that used to be, and often still are, taught in fp. His personal demos of his teachings belie his belief that he can "feel" what elite hitters are doing.

I should say the Hanson principle is flawed. It just happens to be the best tool I'm aware of for the average dad to use to separate the horse puckey from that which will help his kid reach his potential when he's trying to figure out who to study. I trust that most will apply this test well enough to ditch Rich and read Steve. History over the past year or so serves to confirm this trust.

Good luck all. Just dropped in briefly since my name was mentioned. I'm headed back to snow skiing and flying. Have an instrument rating to work on now that I've got the ppl and of course, the season starts shortly.

or better yet read swingbuster and d mac..do the search ..:clapping:applaud::nod:

Steve Englishbey

01-03-2008, 12:54 PM

" should say I believe a young hitter can improve with your teaching, but I do not believe it matches the MLB swing sequence. Maybe that's just my opinion, but I don't think so. The clip which best shows this difference is the Bonds/Steve comparison. As far as your one handed clip on your website, you did show you could pull it pretty far off a tee. I'll take your explanation for it.

And I will REPEAT what I said above ----which is a repeat of what I originally stated here about a year ago as regards the blatent misuse of the Bonds vrs. Steve comparison on the part of some like Slapper 23 above:

"As I mentioned here in the "bonds vrs.Steve " comparison ,the notion that one can take that swing ---or to site another example commonly used in "straw man " fashion ,the one handed swing on my home page -----and then point out what I teach is patently absurd.

What I ACTUALLY TEACH AND ADVOCATE would have to do with the following [and this is by no means the TOTAL PICTURE as regards what I teach and advocate ]:

All the above citations and all of what I demonstrate ,eg "the Shoulder Action "demos wherein for example I am demonstrating glenhumeral joint "slotting " vrs.scapula ADDUCTION /ABDUCTION ,"vertical loading " ,the concept of "one move "loading and unloading " "static loading " with a minimum of eccentric action .And beyond this there are literally dozens of video clips of me showing swings wherein ,for example I show how to specifically work on lead scapula adduction to maintain connection .Or show swings wherein I am showing how to "blend " sitting into footplant ---with scapula action .Or demos as to how to specifically work on creating and maintaining the hinge angle. And so on and so on .

The fact that you and others ONLY SEE and UNDERSTAND things that I teach having to do with the most BASIC turning drills,does not mean that that is ALL THE INFORMATION that comes from either my website of from the setpro website.

As to how one can take this information and use it to REALLY UNDERSTAND the swing process [either conceptually and /or physically ]ultimately depends on their motivation to really learn ALL the material ,level of aptitude,degree of creativity and flexibility in applying the information ,etc etc.

[This latter point goes to the issue of the process of trial and error that is part of ANY SERIOUS attempt to develop a swing ----and is a process wherein myself or any instructor can at best speed the trial and error process .]

"A better comparison would be to compare your recent swings to clips of MLB hitters. Is the swing sequence and movements the same? That is telling, IMO. As Mark Hanson always said, "compare anything someone tells you about hitting to slo-mo video of the best." I have done that and I see a big difference in how MLB hitters load and unload compared to you."[/B]

"Recent swings"?

You have not seen any recent swings .Thus you are incorrect once again .

Moreover the swings of me on my website that you have seen are not the "finished product."

The WHOLE PURPOSE of my "swing experiment" was that of SHOWING A PROCESS WHEREIN I APPLIED MY INFORMATION AND INFO FROM SETPRO .

And the process by which I changed certain aspects of in grained patterns that I no doubt had going way to back to when I played .

A process by which I would go about a "smart "trial and error process of applying information that helped to facilitate the kinds of changes in some of these ingrained patterns.

A process by which I went about showing and explaining numerous things that I did -------both good and not so good ----for the express purpose of shedding greater light on the PROCESS by which one go about using my stuff to change their swing .

You Mike Kennedy FUNDEMENTALLY FAILED to understand the main purpose of my "swing experiment" .

To quote from my website part of what I explained as regards this TEACHING /LEARNING PROCESS :

"As most know I have been engaged in applying my own methods to myself in terms of "swing training ."

These methods are a product of both how I conceptualize the swing process ,and how I understand as to how the "body works."

Both of these -----conceptualization ,and understanding how the body works are interelated in the fundemental sense that you cant have one without the other .

And one of my basic arguments as to why most hitting instruction is no where near as effective as it could be ,is because most instructors do not have a very good sense as to how the body works.

Not understanding how the body works leads to an inability to understand cause and effect .

The inability to really understand cause and effect leads to drills and cues ,and "analysis " which are typically ineffective precisely because they are not in any manner addressing ---or they are confusing ----cause and effect issues .

One of the primary things that I hope that comes out of this teaching /learning exercise on my part ,is that of helping those who are really interested in better understanding cause and effect issues.

To those who are really interested in learning and better understanding will find that the things that I will show will greatly help in explaining any number of things that I think are very important to understand."

From Mike Kennedy should say I believe a young hitter can improve with your teaching, but I do not believe it matches the MLB swing sequence. Maybe that's just my opinion, but I don't think so. [B]The clip which best shows this difference is the Bonds/Steve comparison.

As regards "matching the MLB swing sequence " this presumes that you REALLY understand what that sequence entails .

I have seen your various writings over a several year period ,and my conclusion is that you do NOT really understand the swing process as defined by Paul Nymans descriptions of what a high level swing is ,as defined by "PCR."

Nor do you or did you understand what I teach ----the blatent proof here is the fact that you do not understand the difference between the PROCESS of developing a swing .[which would essentially include anyone other than an elite hitter who is also SERIOUSLY intersested in developing a swing ]

As opposed to the "finished product." [an elite hitter]

Having said this I will say that in terms of the "MLB pattern",that if one can "rotate into footplant",ie starting the rotation and unloading of the swing by "opening the rotaion from the backside while keeping the front side RELATIVELY CLOSED.

And if from there ,one can get to contact in about 4 frames with around 90 mph batspeed,then one is reasonably close to moving in ways that could most certainly be described as conforming to the "MLB pattern."

There are numerous swings that I have [and eventually will show ] that show me creating movement that conforms to these parameters.

And I would further add that if someone like me ---someone who has some longstandingand ingrained patterns of inefficienicies ------can use my methods to change their swing for the better ,then others who are SERIOUS about changing and developing a better swing can indeed do the same thing .

And as I mentioned elsewhere here ,the empirical fact is that there are quite a few who have done this .

steve

Steve Englishbey

01-03-2008, 01:03 PM

" should say I believe a young hitter can improve with your teaching, but I do not believe it matches the MLB swing sequence. Maybe that's just my opinion, but I don't think so. The clip which best shows this difference is the Bonds/Steve comparison. As far as your one handed clip on your website, you did show you could pull it pretty far off a tee. I'll take your explanation for it.

And I will REPEAT what I said above ----which is a repeat of what I originally stated here about a year ago as regards the blatent misuse of the Bonds vrs. Steve comparison on the part of some like Slapper 23 above:

"As I mentioned here in the "bonds vrs.Steve " comparison ,the notion that one can take that swing ---or to site another example commonly used in "straw man " fashion ,the one handed swing on my home page -----and then point out what I teach is patently absurd.

What I ACTUALLY TEACH AND ADVOCATE would have to do with the following [and this is by no means the TOTAL PICTURE as regards what I teach and advocate ]:

All the above citations and all of what I demonstrate ,eg "the Shoulder Action "demos wherein for example I am demonstrating glenhumeral joint "slotting " vrs.scapula ADDUCTION /ABDUCTION ,"vertical loading " ,the concept of "one move "loading and unloading " "static loading " with a minimum of eccentric action .And beyond this there are literally dozens of video clips of me showing swings wherein ,for example I show how to specifically work on lead scapula adduction to maintain connection .Or show swings wherein I am showing how to "blend " sitting into footplant ---with scapula action .Or demos as to how to specifically work on creating and maintaining the hinge angle. And so on and so on .

As to how one can take this information and use it to REALLY UNDERSTAND the swing process [either conceptually and /or physically ]ultimately depends on their motivation to really learn ALL the material ,level of aptitude,degree of creativity and flexibility in applying the information ,etc etc.

[This latter point goes to the issue of the process of trial and error that is part of ANY SERIOUS attempt to develop a swing ----and is a process wherein myself or any instructor can at best speed the trial and error process .]

"A better comparison would be to compare your recent swings to clips of MLB hitters. Is the swing sequence and movements the same? That is telling, IMO. As Mark Hanson always said, "compare anything someone tells you about hitting to slo-mo video of the best." I have done that and I see a big difference in how MLB hitters load and unload compared to you."[/B]

"Recent swings"?

You have not seen any recent swings .Thus you are incorrect once again .

Moreover the swings of me on my website that you have seen are not the "finished product."

The WHOLE PURPOSE of my "swing experiment" was that of SHOWING A PROCESS WHEREIN I APPLIED MY INFORMATION AND INFO FROM SETPRO .

And the process by which I changed certain aspects of in grained patterns that I no doubt had going way to back to when I played .

A process by which I would go about a "smart "trial and error process of applying information that helped to facilitate the kinds of changes in some of these ingrained patterns.

A process by which I went about showing and explaining numerous things that I did -------both good and not so good ----for the express purpose of shedding greater light on the PROCESS by which one go about using my stuff to change their swing .

You Mike Kennedy FUNDEMENTALLY FAILED to understand the main purpose of my "swing experiment" .

To quote from my website part of what I explained as regards this TEACHING /LEARNING PROCESS :

"As most know I have been engaged in applying my own methods to myself in terms of "swing training ."

These methods are a product of both how I conceptualize the swing process ,and how I understand as to how the "body works."

Both of these -----conceptualization ,and understanding how the body works are interelated in the fundemental sense that you cant have one without the other .

And one of my basic arguments as to why most hitting instruction is no where near as effective as it could be ,is because most instructors do not have a very good sense as to how the body works.

Not understanding how the body works leads to an inability to understand cause and effect .

The inability to really understand cause and effect leads to drills and cues ,and "analysis " which are typically ineffective precisely because they are not in any manner addressing ---or they are confusing ----cause and effect issues .

One of the primary things that I hope that comes out of this teaching /learning exercise on my part ,is that of helping those who are really interested in better understanding cause and effect issues.

To those who are really interested in learning and better understanding will find that the things that I will show will greatly help in explaining any number of things that I think are very important to understand."

From Mike Kennedy should say I believe a young hitter can improve with your teaching, but I do not believe it matches the MLB swing sequence. Maybe that's just my opinion, but I don't think so. [B]The clip which best shows this difference is the Bonds/Steve comparison.

As regards "matching the MLB swing sequence " this presumes that you REALLY understand what that sequence entails .

I have seen your various writings over a several year period ,and my conclusion is that you do NOT really understand the swing process as defined by Paul Nymans descriptions of what a high level swing is ,as defined by "PCR."

Nor do you or did you understand what I teach ----the blatent proof here is the fact that you do not understand the difference between the PROCESS of developing a swing .[which would essentially include anyone other than an elite hitter who is also SERIOUSLY intersested in developing a swing ]

As opposed to the "finished product." [an elite hitter]

Having said this I will say that in terms of the "MLB pattern",that if one can "rotate into footplant",ie starting the rotation and unloading of the swing by "opening the rotaion from the backside while keeping the front side RELATIVELY CLOSED.

And if from there ,one can get to contact in about 4 frames with around 90 mph batspeed,then one is reasonably close to moving in ways that could most certainly be described as conforming to the "MLB pattern."

There are numerous swings that I have [and eventually will show ] that show me creating movement that conforms to these parameters.

And I would further add that if someone like me ---someone who has some longstandingand ingrained patterns of inefficienicies ------can use my methods to change their swing for the better ,then others who are SERIOUS about changing and developing a better swing can indeed do the same thing .

And as I mentioned elsewhere here ,the empirical fact is that there are quite a few who have done this .

steve

jbooth

01-03-2008, 02:09 PM

Also, anyone who thinks that the shoulders purposely rotate in the high level swing, try this (I'm not saying that this is the right way to swing, but try it):

Get the bat flat (lag position, whatever you want to call it)... do this in a mirror... pull the bat towards the pitcher only with your arms. Look, the shoulders more, but did you move them?If you did it right, it *looks* like the shoulders rotated.

Watch the video below, and then get back to us on your thoughts about whether or not, the shoulders rotate;

http://firstpickclub.com/video/robinson3.gif

Also, note how his hands move toward the ball in synch with his back shoulder. The hands don't get ahead of the shoulders until just before contact.

The hands are moving with the shoulder.

Also, note that the bathead doesn't move toward the catcher until the back shoulder has started to move, so where is the top hand pull, and "early batspeed?"

In the frames I numbered on home plate; from 1 to 21 the bat is just flattening. From 21 to 50 it is arcing at the ball, and frame 21 is about when the shoulders start to rotate. The hands and bathead are coming around with the shoulders.

In frame 75, the hips and shoulders are almost done rotating, and the hands and bathead are still back.

So, if the arms pull the bat and the shoulders don't rotate, how do you explain this?

And, on the subject of them "resisting", they resist from about frame 1 to about frame 12, then they unwind like a spring. If they resist for the whole swing, how do they speed up faster than the speed of the hips and catch up at contact time? If they resisted they would have pretty much the same separation at frame 75 as they did at frame 21, but they don't. It is the acceleration of the shoulders; caused by hip forces that helps you hit HR's. If you resist the shoulder rotation, you only get arm power.

You don't make them resist, nor do you try to make them accelerate. You LET them go; unwind; accelerate, after an initial resistance to wind up the "spring." And, as you let them go, you can use the arms to pull the handle around so that the hands go faster than the shoulders, and the bathead goes faster than the hands.

The chain is hips, shoulders, arms, hands, barrel. Each accelerates the next, in sequence.

jofus13

01-03-2008, 02:39 PM

jbooth

01-03-2008, 03:04 PM

Bearing in mind that I'm a newb, I think that part of the issue here is what everyone is referring to as "shoulders".

In Jim's video, I see that as the entire upper body (which includes the shoulders) rotating to catch up to the hips, rather than the shoulders rotating on their own.

When I think of shoulders rotating *by themselves* prior to contact, I picture more of a linear swing, where the shoulders are contributing to the swing without the upper body moving.

The shoulders are the joint areas were the upper arms (humerus) join with the collar bone (clavicle). When I talk about shoulder rotation I'm talking about the clavicles rotating. I drew a line from one shoulder, through the back of the clavicle, to the other shoulder. THAT line is what I term the shoulders, and that line rotates.

The shoulder joints move with the clavicle. The upper arm can move within the joint, but the shoulder joint can't go anywhere on its own.

FiveFrameSwing

01-03-2008, 03:06 PM

FiveFrameSwing

01-03-2008, 03:14 PM

Don't forget Nyman's corollary (whose bedside manner grades better than Richards ;)). We can only see what we are capable of seeing according to our training and existing paradigm as well as the recognition that not everything can be seen in clips. Mike looks at the wall and sees blue while I see green. IOW, I look at a MLB clip and see what Steve describes. I read what Richard of the foul mouth on the net and shrinking violet demeanor in person says and I see little similarity to MLB clips. His stuff sounds to me like some of the arm swings that used to be, and often still are, taught in fp. His personal demos of his teachings belie his belief that he can "feel" what elite hitters are doing.

I should say the Hanson principle is flawed. It just happens to be the best tool I'm aware of for the average dad to use to separate the horse puckey from that which will help his kid reach his potential when he's trying to figure out who to study. I trust that most will apply this test well enough to ditch Rich and read Steve. History over the past year or so serves to confirm this trust.

Good luck all. Just dropped in briefly since my name was mentioned. I'm headed back to snow skiing and flying. Have an instrument rating to work on now that I've got the ppl and of course, the season starts shortly.

You certainly have some valid points. While you explain potential flaws in the Hanson Principle, I believe it remains the best tool out there to separate the wheat from shaft.

While not everything can be seen in the clips, what I will often see are local hitting instructors, and parents, teaching mechanics that are not part of the MLB pattern. The Hanson Principle quickly helps filter out invented nonsense.

Enjoy the off season.

Hard Liner

01-03-2008, 03:26 PM

And I would further add that if someone...who has some longstanding and ingrained patterns of inefficienicies...

Steve, this question may be outside of what you focus on, but do you think there is merit in letting a kid (12yrs, who hits well) just play, perhaps for many more years, without any drilling (and thus, little repetition), while I wait to be as certain as possible that any drills done are long term productive?

In other words, is there as much value in avoiding bad drills as in doing good ones?

jbooth

01-03-2008, 03:32 PM

I believe it remains the best tool out there to separate the wheat from shaft.

OK, I'm just having fun here, with my obsessiveness, so don't get mad.

I always thought the phrase was; "separate the wheat from the chaff."

CHAFF
1. the husks of grains and grasses that are separated during threshing.

However, I guess it is also true that the wheat gets separated from the "shaft", along with the chaff.:):dance;)

I guess either works; kind of like rotate the shoulders, or, rotate the clavicle. :)

FiveFrameSwing

01-03-2008, 03:52 PM

OK, I'm just having fun here, with my obsessiveness, so don't get mad.

I always thought the phrase was; "separate the wheat from the chaff."

CHAFF
1. the husks of grains and grasses that are separated during threshing.

However, I guess it is also true that the wheat gets separated from the "shaft", along with the chaff.:):dance;)

I guess either works; kind of like rotate the shoulders, or, rotate the clavicle. :)

I'm not mad. In fact I'm laughing out loud. I haven't used that phrase in over a decade ... so when I was typing it I asked my wife "is it 'chaff' or 'shaft'" ... but it turns out she was wrong ... but if I tell her then I'll be given the 'shaft' ... or worse ... ... ...

You are correct.

FiveFrameSwing

01-03-2008, 03:55 PM

In other words, is there as much value in avoiding bad drills as in doing good ones?

I believe there is merit in avoiding bad drills.

Doing nothing will put you at a disadvantage relative to those that are doing things right.

This is why I especially like Chris Yeager's material. It's an excellent description of the MLB pattern and helps one avoid bad drills.

Eagle

01-03-2008, 04:57 PM

In the frames I numbered on home plate; from 1 to 21 the bat is just flattening. From 21 to 50 it is arcing at the ball, and frame 21 is about when the shoulders start to rotate.

I'm curious as to what you think makes the bat "just flatten" if the shoulders aren't rotating. I don't think that it is just the back elbow lowering. If you can remember seeing Joe Morgan bat, you'll understand.

dannyboy

01-03-2008, 05:03 PM

this is shoulder rotation:

http://www.exrx.net/AnimatedEx/Subscapularis/CBInternalRotation.gif

http://www.exrx.net/AnimatedEx/Infraspinatus/DBExternalRotation.gif

this is spinal rotation:

http://www.exrx.net/AnimatedEx/Obliques/LVTwistGripless.gif

this is max separation:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lCdMTHTpRIc

jbooth

01-03-2008, 05:11 PM

I'm curious as to what you think makes the bat "just flatten" if the shoulders aren't rotating. I don't think that it is just the back elbow lowering. If you can remember seeing Joe Morgan bat, you'll understand.

In this overhead of Ted Williams his notations under the pictures state that the bat is flattening during frames 1, 2 and 3, while the hips open. In frame 4 he says the bat begins a tight arc into the pitch. He flattened it by pretty much just letting the weight of the barrel drop the bat, along with a change in hand position (raised them up.) He never mentions applying any force at this point to accelerate the bathead. He often stated that you whip the bathead, which means you wouldn't be doing much with it at frames 3 and 4. You just set it on plane and then pull the handle around, and let the barrel whip around.

http://firstpickclub.com/images/hips-top.jpg

Stealth

01-03-2008, 05:23 PM

In this overhead of Ted Williams his notations under the pictures state that the bat is flattening during frames 1, 2 and 3, while the hips open. In frame 4 he says the bat begins a tight arc into the pitch. He flattened it by pretty much just letting the weight of the barrel drop the bat, along with a change in hand position (raised them up.) He never mentions applying any force at this point to accelerate the bathead. He often stated that you whip the bathead, which means you wouldn't be doing much with it at frames 3 and 4. You just set it on plane and then pull the handle around, and let the barrel whip around.

http://firstpickclub.com/images/hips-top.jpg

Jim - can you expand on the part in bold. I don't believe any good hitter just lets the weight of the barrel drop the bat. Why do you make that assumption?

jbooth

01-03-2008, 05:24 PM

this is shoulder rotation:

http://www.exrx.net/AnimatedEx/Subscapularis/CBInternalRotation.gif

http://www.exrx.net/AnimatedEx/Infraspinatus/DBExternalRotation.gif

Actually, those are medial rotation of the humerus (internal and external) within the shoulder joint. Performed mostly by the subscapularis, the pectoralis and the deltoid.

this is spinal rotation:

http://www.exrx.net/AnimatedEx/Obliques/LVTwistGripless.gif

Yes, and the rotation of the spine causes the shoulder joints to rotate around the spinal axis. I call that shoulder rotation. They are rotating around the spine. And the spinal rotation/(shoulder rotation) while sitting like that, is done primarily (not exclusively), by the internal and external obliques, that connect the top of the hips to the rib cage.

Slapper23

01-03-2008, 05:28 PM

Steve, thanks again for the reply. On one point of agreement - I, Mike Kennedy, do not entirely agree with Nyman's definition of the high level swing, as defined by PCR. This may be hard for you to accept.

Also, let me, Mike Kennedy, clear up some confusion. In asking to compare your recent swings to MLB clips, I meant swings that I have not seen so far, and swings that you have improved through your recent swing experiments. I was very aware of your swing experiments before you booted me from your site for disagreeing. The nice thing about expressing a respectful, but dissenting OPINION away from your website is I, Mike Kennedy, can do so freely without fear of being muzzled. Other than that, I wish you nothing but the best.

jbooth

01-03-2008, 05:34 PM

Jim - can you expand on the part in bold. I don't believe any good hitter just lets the weight of the barrel drop the bat. Why do you make that assumption?

I don't show the earlier frames where his hands are in his initial stance.

He moved the hands up and away from his body, which moved the handle out from under the head, which caused the head to fall. Kind of like dumping the bathead over his shoulder toward his back. That gives the bathead a "running start", but no torqing action is required, (or very little), and you can see that it doesn't go into an arc toward the catcher and around at the ball until frame 4, AFTER he has let it flatten as far as he wants, for that pitch.

Bonds does the same thing. He drops his hands down, and then when he lifts them to the shoulder area prior to launch, as they come up his elbow raises and the hands move out, and the bat drops. It's not two completely separate moves though. The bathead sometimes starts into the attack arc, as it is flattening, but they don't crank the barrel backward with the top hand. They MIGHT pull it a bit, in the flattening direction, but not in the arc to ball, direction. And, IMO, the action is more from the big bones/muscles than the wrists. The flattening into plane, and into palm up/palm down is caused from the forearms twisting and the elbows weather vaning.

http://firstpickclub.com/images/hips-top.jpg

Stealth

01-03-2008, 05:48 PM

Eagle

01-03-2008, 05:54 PM

Jim - can you expand on the part in bold. I don't believe any good hitter just lets the weight of the barrel drop the bat. Why do you make that assumption?

I was going to ask the same thing. I don't believe you have enough time in the swing to allow for gravity to do it's thing.

Williams didn't mention doing anything with the hands to pull the bat down in his book but he also didn't mention anything about shoulders either. But in an SI article he said to Boggs and Mattingly:

"O.K., watch me swing. I drop my back shoulder. I don't have to force myself to keep my head down. [Boggs takes his swing.] You're dropping your back shoulder, too"

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/baseball/mlb/williams_tribute/flashbacks/1986/

I'm kind of leaning in the direction of the lateral tilt of the shoulders and forearm rotation to get the bat head from vertical to the pitch plane.

jbooth

01-03-2008, 06:02 PM

Jim - I believe you are somewhat wrong here. Williams specifically says you need an extremely firm grip when hitting a baseball. If the barrel is dropping it's not 100% because of the weight. Those guys in MLB are too strong for that to happen. You admit there is a "little" bit of torque going on. If we are to believe Williams on the firm grip there just might be more torque going on than you are giving credit for. The actual amount will never be known.

When Ted tips the bat and then starts the swing (firms up his grip) I think there is more than a "little" bit going on here. IMHO.

Well, I can't guarantee what he did with his hands to flatten the bat, but I'm pretty darn sure he didn't torque the head into the approach arc. He might have torqued it to flatten it, but try what I said. You don't have to apply much force if you just manipulate the handle with your hands and arms.

Also, a firm grip could mean a lot of different things. I'm not sure that he meant it the way you think of it, but I don't know for sure. Only he could tell us if he was alive.

Stealth

01-03-2008, 06:16 PM

Also, a firm grip could mean a lot of different things. I'm not sure that he meant it the way you think of it, but I don't know for sure. Only he could tell us if he was alive.

Maybe - if he had said a firm grip I could possibly agree with your statement above. But - he specifically says extremely firm. That's pretty clear to me.

No way do you just let the weight of the bat do what you say IMHO.

jbooth

01-03-2008, 06:28 PM

Maybe - if he had said a firm grip I could possibly agree with your statement above. But - he specifically says extremely firm. That's pretty clear to me.

No way do you just let the weight of the bat do what you say IMHO.

Well, yeah, but extremely firm, WHEN? You certainly need it to be extremely firm just prior to, and during impact, but it doesn't have to be firm to get the bat in position to go at the ball.

I honestly don't know how he handled the bat in his hands, so it's useless to debate what he did.

Stealth

01-03-2008, 06:57 PM

Jim - get a bat and tip it the way Williams and Bonds do, toward the SS. Now as you get ready to swing (bat starts to come back - away from SS and into it's arc) as you are firming up your grip what is happening?

Now get a bat and hold it in the 45 slot and start your swing as your grip firms up. BIG difference in the action of the hands between these two scenarios. Could this be a reason why most of the power guys tip the bat and get a running start?

Once my hands go forward I want an extremely firm grip - are you saying you have a lighter grip as your hands are moving and then you firm up prior to contact? If so I think you are dead wrong. Correct me if I am reading your statement wrong.

dannyboy

01-03-2008, 08:18 PM

swingbuilder

01-03-2008, 08:58 PM

Ray

would you elaborate your points with the clips as they would relate to the baseball swing. Thanks

swingbuilder

01-03-2008, 09:11 PM

Watch the video below, and then get back to us on your thoughts about whether or not, the shoulders rotate;

http://firstpickclub.com/video/robinson3.gif

Also, note how his hands move toward the ball in synch with his back shoulder. The hands don't get ahead of the shoulders until just before contact.

The hands are moving with the shoulder.

Also, note that the bathead doesn't move toward the catcher until the back shoulder has started to move, so where is the top hand pull, and "early batspeed?"

In the frames I numbered on home plate; from 1 to 21 the bat is just flattening. From 21 to 50 it is arcing at the ball, and frame 21 is about when the shoulders start to rotate. The hands and bathead are coming around with the shoulders.

In frame 75, the hips and shoulders are almost done rotating, and the hands and bathead are still back.

So, if the arms pull the bat and the shoulders don't rotate, how do you explain this?

And, on the subject of them "resisting", they resist from about frame 1 to about frame 12, then they unwind like a spring. If they resist for the whole swing, how do they speed up faster than the speed of the hips and catch up at contact time? If they resisted they would have pretty much the same separation at frame 75 as they did at frame 21, but they don't. It is the acceleration of the shoulders; caused by hip forces that helps you hit HR's. If you resist the shoulder rotation, you only get arm power.

You don't make them resist, nor do you try to make them accelerate. You LET them go; unwind; accelerate, after an initial resistance to wind up the "spring." And, as you let them go, you can use the arms to pull the handle around so that the hands go faster than the shoulders, and the bathead goes faster than the hands.

The chain is hips, shoulders, arms, hands, barrel. Each accelerates the next, in sequence.

If you see that barrel moving very early then you also will see that the hands are moving to yet the shoulders are not. Your definition of shoulder rotation is not the same as mine. and thats ok. But those hands are moving before you say they are moving.

jbooth

01-03-2008, 10:06 PM

Once my hands go forward I want an extremely firm grip - are you saying you have a lighter grip as your hands are moving and then you firm up prior to contact?

Yes, the grip is firm from the point that they move the handle at the ball, up through contact.

jbooth

01-03-2008, 10:14 PM

this is shoulder rotation:
http://www.exrx.net/AnimatedEx/Subscapularis/CBInternalRotation.gif
http://www.exrx.net/AnimatedEx/Infraspinatus/DBExternalRotation.gif

Did you miss my first response? The above is medial rotation of the arm, at the shoulder joint.

this is spinal rotation:
http://www.exrx.net/AnimatedEx/Obliques/LVTwistGripless.gif

Yes, this is rotation of the vertebral column, and the vertebral column is the axis point around which the shoulder joints rotate.

Mark H

01-03-2008, 10:18 PM

You certainly have some valid points. While you explain potential flaws in the Hanson Principle, I believe it remains the best tool out there to separate the wheat from shaft.

While not everything can be seen in the clips, what I will often see are local hitting instructors, and parents, teaching mechanics that are not part of the MLB pattern. The Hanson Principle quickly helps filter out invented nonsense.

Enjoy the off season.

Yep.

.

Mark H

01-03-2008, 10:22 PM

This is not blatently obvious to me. There are a lot of whacked out ideas out there that should be avoided.

Point of order. I'll let Steve answer the rest of the post but I don't think your second sentence relates to what he was saying is blatantly obvious.

Mark H

01-03-2008, 10:26 PM

Steve, this question may be outside of what you focus on, but do you think there is merit in letting a kid (12yrs, who hits well) just play, perhaps for many more years, without any drilling (and thus, little repetition), while I wait to be as certain as possible that any drills done are long term productive?

If you are saying don't start doing swing surgery till you are very sure you know what you are doing and understand cause and effect, then absolutely, yes.

In other words, is there as much value in avoiding bad drills as in doing good ones?

I'll predict Steve will give you a big Amen on that one.

Mark H

01-03-2008, 10:36 PM

If you see that barrel moving very early then you also will see that the hands are moving to yet the shoulders are not. Your definition of shoulder rotation is not the same as mine. and thats ok. But those hands are moving before you say they are moving.

I have to vote with Jim on this one. Shoulder rotation/spinal rotation (great, another definition) is moving the hands early in the swing.

Good night all. Tomorrow should be sun in the morning and I much prefer that to skiing in flat light.

BoardMember

01-03-2008, 11:28 PM

this is shoulder rotation:

Ray, you know I hate "stepping" on your stuff :D.....BUT, I just can't help it...........Sometimes your understanding is really "tilted"......:rofl:

From Wikipedia:

A rotation is a movement of an object in a circular motion. A two-dimensional object rotates around a center (or point) of rotation. A three-dimensional object rotates around a line called an axis. If the axis of rotation is within the body, the body is said to rotate upon itself, or spin—which implies relative speed and perhaps free-movement with angular momentum.

The sphere, and the shoulder complex are rotating:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/02/Rotating_Sphere.gifhttp://www.exrx.net/AnimatedEx/Obliques/LVTwistGripless.gif

Also From Wikipedia:
A circular motion about an external point, e.g. the Earth about the Sun, is called an orbit or more properly an orbital revolution.

In the following examples, the humerus bone is rotating, and the forearm is orbiting, as it's movement is about an external point. The shoulders are not rotating:

http://www.exrx.net/AnimatedEx/Subscapularis/CBInternalRotation.gifhttp://www.exrx.net/AnimatedEx/Infraspinatus/DBExternalRotation.gif

Try as you may, the shoulder complex is rotating........

Just for Educational purposes for our "tilting" HI customers:

TILT or TILTING:
To cause to slope, as by raising one end.........An inclination from the horizontal or vertical; a slant

In otherwords, if the front of the shoulder complex rises, WITHOUT ANY MOVEMENT of the other side, this would be "tilting"..........

This is NOT tilt, it IS rotation.......by definition...............And Physics......

http://i5.tinypic.com/6xzugk2.gif

Someone should probably tell Rich.........

Did you miss my first response? The above is medial rotation of the arm, at the shoulder joint.

Yes, this is rotation of the vertebral column, and the vertebral column is the axis point around which the shoulder joints rotate.

RayR

01-04-2008, 05:46 AM

More shoulder rotation. Yes, Jim I am calling it shoulder rotation.

http://www.ramellibandr.com/SHA/dleeshoulders.gif

Eagle

01-04-2008, 09:56 AM

TILT or TILTING:

In otherwords, if the front of the shoulder complex rises, WITHOUT ANY MOVEMENT of the other side, this would be "tilting"..........

http://i5.tinypic.com/6xzugk2.gif

So you are saying that tilting your shoulders to you means raising only your front shoulder? How do you raise only your front shoulder and swing without also lowering your rear shoulder? It seems to me that if your front shoulder goes up, your back one goes down while in the act of swinging a bat. Sure you can raise one shoulder and keep it higher than the other all day but it is not a great way to swing a bat. Would you tell Williams and Boggs that their back shoulders did not drop?

I kind of think that your definition & interpretation of "tilt" is "tilted." If there is a center point (spine) on something that gets tilted or slanted, one side goes up and the other side goes down, doesn't it? And I don't think that something that is tilted cannot rotate. Tilted shoulders around (with?)the spine.

I'm no expert on this stuff but am trying to figure out what you mean when I see the back shoulder lower than the front through a good portion of the swing.

RayR

01-04-2008, 10:20 AM

BoardMember

01-04-2008, 12:13 PM

So you are saying that tilting your shoulders to you means raising only your front shoulder?

Well yes, that is the DICTIONARY and PHYSICAL definition of "TILTING", or "TO TILT". But because you are speaking of "raising", it would probably be more accurate to call it a slant.

Sorry, if you'd like to re-write the definitions be my guest.......They aren't mine.

How do you raise only your front shoulder and swing without also lowering your rear shoulder?

Well, it can be done of course, but is has NOTHING to do with hitting......

It seems to me that if your front shoulder goes up, your back one goes down while in the act of swinging a bat.

Well yes, this is true. So, the shoulder complex is ROTATING, not tilting. What part don't you get?

Sure you can raise one shoulder and keep it higher than the other all day but it is not a great way to swing a bat. Would you tell Williams and Boggs that their back shoulders did not drop?

Well no I wouldn't, because they are Rotating the shoulder complex, NOT tilting it.........I would sound stupid if I told them they were "tilting" the shoulders. The AXIS might be TILTED, but the action is ROTATION.

I kind of think that your definition & interpretation of "tilt" is "tilted."

Um, it's not my definition.........

If there is a center point (spine) on something that gets tilted or slanted

Stop Right There! Read it again. IF there is a center point within the object, it is NOT tilting OR slanting, it is ROTATING by definition.......

one side goes up and the other side goes down, doesn't it?

Well yes this would be true in ROTATION. Not in TILTING or SLANTING by definitinion.

And I don't think that something that is tilted cannot rotate. Tilted shoulders around (with?)the spine.

I agree, something that is tilted or slanted can infact begin to rotate.

This just isn't what happens in the swing. In the swing, the shoulders are ROTATING from the start. Sorry.......

I'm no expert on this stuff but am trying to figure out what you mean when I see the back shoulder lower than the front through a good portion of the swing.

Ahhhhhhh......Ok, Here:

The Axis OF ROTATION IS tilted (a static reference), but the ACTION (dynamic movement) is NOT tilting. It is rotating.

I think the problem might be that when we see A STATIC object (such as a still photo) that isn't LEVEL, we think of it as tilted or slanted. I don't argue this point. It is true in this sense.

But when we're talking about dynamic movement, IE swinging a bat, the ACTION that happens IS rotation. ROTATION is how we get to the TILTED OR SLANTED postion shown in STILL PHOTO'S.

Better understanding?

jbooth

01-04-2008, 12:52 PM

So you are saying that tilting your shoulders to you means raising only your front shoulder? How do you raise only your front shoulder and swing without also lowering your rear shoulder? It seems to me that if your front shoulder goes up, your back one goes down while in the act of swinging a bat. Sure you can raise one shoulder and keep it higher than the other all day but it is not a great way to swing a bat. Would you tell Williams and Boggs that their back shoulders did not drop?

I kind of think that your definition & interpretation of "tilt" is "tilted." If there is a center point (spine) on something that gets tilted or slanted, one side goes up and the other side goes down, doesn't it? And I don't think that something that is tilted cannot rotate. Tilted shoulders around (with?)the spine.

I'm no expert on this stuff but am trying to figure out what you mean when I see the back shoulder lower than the front through a good portion of the swing.

I think BoardMember is messing with you a little bit. ;)

Of course when the front shoulder goes up, the back one goes down. If your shoulders are horizontal, and then you move them so that the they are no longer horizontal, then you would be correct to say that they now are tilted. But, the action of moving from horizontal to the tilted position is technically, (and this is where he was messing with you), rotating into the tilted position. And that rotation into tilt is a vertical rotation. Because one shoulder goes up and one goes down in rotation around the axis that is the base of your neck.

Now, after that rotation/tilt, when the front shoulder moves out, and the back one moves in, to swing the bat at the ball, the shoulders are now rotating around that same axis point (base of neck), but now on a more horizontal plane. It isn't truly horizontal because your spine is not vertical, it is tilted toward the plate. Therefore, the shoulders rotate around the neck axis, in a plane that is pretty much perpendicular to the spine, which is tilted.

The axis is the base of your neck and the shoulders rotate around that point.

That was the technically description. The simple description is that your shoulders rotate around your spine, and the spine is tilted. So, you have shoulders rotating on a tilted (not horizontal) plane.

BoardMember

01-04-2008, 01:27 PM

I really wasn't messing with him at all. What did you write that I didn't explain correctly?

TILT and TILTED is a static position in space. Rotation is a dynamic movement.

TILTING AND SLANTING are movement of ONE END of an object.

While the shoulders may laterally rotate (on a tilted axis plane), to a tilted position, they do not laterally tilt.......At least in the baseball swing.

They rotate...........What the hell is the issue? :shrug:

Enough of this nonsense that the shoulders just TILT in the MLB swing......:choke:

:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

I think BoardMember is messing with you a little bit. ;)

Of course when the front shoulder goes up, the back one goes down. If your shoulders are horizontal, and then you move them so that the they are no longer horizontal, then you would be correct to say that they now are tilted. But, the action of moving from horizontal to the tilted position is technically, (and this is where he was messing with you), rotating into the tilted position. And that rotation into tilt is a vertical rotation. Because one shoulder goes up and one goes down in rotation around the axis that is the base of your neck.

Now, after that rotation/tilt, when the front shoulder moves out, and the back one moves in, to swing the bat at the ball, the shoulders are now rotating around that same axis point (base of neck), but now on a more horizontal plane. It isn't truly horizontal because your spine is not vertical, it is tilted toward the plate. Therefore, the shoulders rotate around the neck axis, in a plane that is pretty much perpendicular to the spine, which is tilted.

The axis is the base of your neck and the shoulders rotate around that point.

That was the technically description. The simple description is that your shoulders rotate around your spine, and the spine is tilted. So, you have shoulders rotating on a tilted (not horizontal) plane.

swingbuilder

01-04-2008, 02:36 PM

Enough of this nonsense that the shoulders just TILT in the MLB swing

They rotate in the MLB swing. After contact:gt

jbooth

01-04-2008, 03:08 PM

They rotate in the MLB swing. After contact:gt

They rotate before, during an after.

When the back shoulder starts near the catcher and moves around and ends up near the pitcher; THAT is rotation. Are you telling me that the back shoulder does not move until AFTER contact?

It rotates 180 degrees during the swing. 90 degrees before contact, and 90 degrees more, after contact. Half of the total rotation is before, and the other half is after.

swingbuilder

01-04-2008, 03:16 PM

THAT is rotation.

Its rotation, correct. Its just not powered by the shoulders.

shoulder rotation is in all actuality spinal rotation. The stretch and fire is a result of spinal rotation and not what you would call shoulder rotation.

would you say pinch/ unpinch is married to shoulder rotation

Slapper23

01-04-2008, 03:30 PM

Coach (BM), you are really stirring (and tilting) the pot! I think your clip with the rectangle drawn around the shoulders clearly shows lateral tilting action AND rotation. It's a dynamic movement, not one movement, pause, and then another. RayR's slo-mo clip also shows the lateral tilt/rotation.

One of the defintions you left out concerning "tilt" and "tilted" is 'an inclination from the horizontal or vertical, a slant.'...to slope, incline, a sloping surface. A hitter can rotate (or turn) his shoulders horizontally around his spine from his initial stance without tilting them, but he must laterally tilt the shoulders as he overlaps into rotation, in order to get the hands flat and set the swing plane.

What say Ye?

Mike (aka Mike Kennedy)

BoardMember

01-04-2008, 04:45 PM

The Dogma around here is amazing.........:hp

Coach (BM), you are really stirring (and tilting) the pot! I think your clip with the rectangle drawn around the shoulders clearly shows lateral tilting action AND rotation. It's a dynamic movement, not one movement, pause, and then another. RayR's slo-mo clip also shows the lateral tilt/rotation.

LOL! :rofl:....Well, we've now gotten "rotation" into the action.

One of the defintions you left out concerning "tilt" and "tilted" is 'an inclination from the horizontal or vertical, a slant.'...to slope, incline, a sloping surface.

What Changed? You adding slope and incline? Just another reference in space. Not an action item in hitting.

So, I say the same..........

The shoulders are Rotating.............Not Slanting, Not Sloping, Not Inclining, and Not Tilting.

The state in which they are Rotating could be Horizontal, Vertical, Slanted, Sloped, Inclined or Tilted.

IE the axis of Rotation could be Horizontal, Vertical, Slanted, Sloped, Inclined or Tilted.

The the shoulders are rotating...........

Please NOTE THE BOLDED EDIT IN THIS QUOTE FROM YOU:
A hitter can rotate (or turn) his shoulders horizontally around his spine from his initial stance without tilting them, but he must laterally tilt, slant, slope, or incline THE AXIS OF ROTATION of the shoulders as he overlaps into rotation, in order to get the hands flat and set the swing plane.

What say Ye?

Mike (aka Mike Kennedy)

Much better scientific explaination of the action don't you think?

Look, I don't see what's so complicated.

Lay a board on the ground. Walk up and pick up one end. What have you done? Well, you have Slanted, Sloped, Inclined or Tilted the board BY LIFTING IT. Now grab the middle and move it from horzontal to any angle. What have you done? Well, you have ROTATED the board to a Slanted, Sloped, Inclined or Tilted position BY ROTATING IT.

BoardMember

01-04-2008, 05:18 PM

Isn't it funny how agenda can cause such dogma?

Someone can say the hips DO rotate themselves, but the shoulders don't? And actually believe it?

Keep drinking that KoolAid Swing........

Does it bother you to know that it the Shoulders don't power the swing, neither do the HIPS?

That's IT! It's actually the HIPs that are bypassed! After all, they can't rotate themselves! Something else is causing them to rotate, so they DON'T POWER THE SWING!.............

THE HIPS ARE BYPASSED!.......Hitting MisIllustrated!

Its rotation, correct. Its just not powered by the shoulders.

shoulder rotation is in all actuality spinal rotation. The stretch and fire is a result of spinal rotation and not what you would call shoulder rotation.

would you say pinch/ unpinch is married to shoulder rotation

jbooth

01-04-2008, 05:19 PM

The shoulders are Rotating.............Not Slanting, Not Sloping, Not Inclining, and Not Tilting.

The state in which they are Rotating could be Horizontal, Vertical, Slanted, Sloped, Inclined or Tilted.

IE the axis of Rotation could be Horizontal, Vertical, Slanted, Sloped, Inclined or Tilted.

The the shoulders are rotating...........

"tilt" can be used as a verb or a noun. Correct me if I'm misunderstanding you, but you seem to be saying that it is only a noun.

It is OK to say that the shoulders tilt (verb), and mean that the line from one shoulder to the other changes from horizontal to a slanted position.

ie; "I tilt my shoulders before I rotate them."

"tilt" and "rotate" in the above sentence are both verbs. Verbs describe action. One action is to tilt, and the other is to rotate. However, I think I understand that you are saying that they get to a tilt (noun), technically by rotating, which is true, but you don't need to pick it down to that nit.

You could say, "I rotate my shoulders to a 5 degree tilt, before I rotate them to move the bat."

Or, you could say, "My shoulders are on a tilt when I rotate them."

Tilt can mean an action or a thing.

Slapper23

01-04-2008, 05:36 PM

The Dogma around here is amazing.........

That depends on your perspective, don't ya think? Yours is definitely tilted from mine, Coach. :)

When I speak of tilting, I'm speaking of the shoulder complex ( to use your words) tilting or slanting, which changes the angle of the axis of rotation - the spine - just before the shoulder complex rotates AROUND the spine. This is somewhat analogous to the Earth rotating about an axis of rotation that is tilted or slanted 23.5 degrees from vertical.

Coach, I could go with you if I was going to rotate my shoulders around a horizontal axis, but I'm not. I'm simply tilting - not rotating - the spinal axis of rotation, before I send my upper torso/shoulder complex rotating around this newly tilted axis of rotation.

Fun stuff!

Mike

dannyboy

01-04-2008, 06:03 PM

BM, (what is your fist name anyhow?),
Not to worry, I’ll just use the moniker BM.
BM, BM, BM,

Let’s see, - I once knew a guy that could wiggle his ears, …and he won a lot of money from me.
You see, - I bet him that he couldn’t , … but he could. Wiggle his ears, that is.
You’ve given me inspiration to get even.
I’m going to print out your Post # 147 …
http://www.baseball-fever.com/showpost.php?p=1083856&postcount=147
…and fold it up and put it my back pocket.
And then I’m going to tell him that I can rotate my ears.

Around the world, too!

Booth,

You asked:
Did you miss my first response?

No. …… I thought you missed mine.
In fact, I thought if anyone could appreciate my post, - it was someone who has studied anatomy for 40 yrs., and has to remind the board of this every tenth post (…ok, maybe every twentieth).

Swingbuilder,

You asked:
would you elaborate your points with the clips as they would relate to the baseball swing. Thanks

sure.
The shoulder can rotate (amongst other articulations, and independently) while the spine is rotating.
Ooooops, sorry BM---
The shoulder can rotate while the shoulder can rotate.

.

Eagle

01-04-2008, 06:14 PM

I'm simply tilting - not rotating - the spinal axis of rotation, before I send my upper torso/shoulder complex rotating around this newly tilted axis of rotation.

You, Mike Kennedy, have described what I see.;)

Slapper23

01-04-2008, 06:29 PM

Eagle, I, Mike Kennedy, thank you! HA! Hey, it's what I see, too, but I understand not everyone will see the same thing. I've been told I'm not capable of seeing what I should be seeing. There has to be some truth to that because I honestly know I don't have all the answers. But I like learning about this stuff to become a better "swing instructor" to my HS kids and grandchildren. I just wish the acrimony would disappear.

Mike

BoardMember

01-04-2008, 07:08 PM

"tilt" can be used as a verb or a noun.

Actually Jim, it's way more complicated then that. I really don't want to give a grammer lesson but.........There are Transitive Verbs, Intransitive Verbs, and Nouns.

Transitive Verbs need an object (or objects) to explain its action. (In this case "My Shoulders")

Ex: "I am Tilting My Shoulders" Trans.def. Lifting One Side.

Intransitive verbs do not need an object to explain themselves.
Ex: "My Shoulder are Tilting" Intrans.def. To Slope/Incline

So, the complicated part is ONE explains what I am doing with my shoulders, and the OTHER is explaining WHAT is happening to my shoulders WHEN I DO IT.

Correct me if I'm misunderstanding you, but you seem to be saying that it is only a noun.

I am using the transitive verb. The Transitive verb of tilt is:
To cause to slope, as by raising one end

Which is both NOT what I'm doing, AND NOT what my shoulders are doing (raising from one end).

So it fits both of my tests of what is NOT happening........

The Intransitive Verb of tilt is:
To slope; incline/Slant.

Since this describes what "happened" after I reached the position, it doesn't pass the test of what IS happening.......

And the noun for tilt is:
The act of tilting(transitive verb) or the condition of being tilted (noun).

It is OK to say that the shoulders tilt (verb),and mean that the line from one shoulder to the other changes from horizontal to a slanted position. ie; "I tilt my shoulders before I rotate them."

This decribes a position the shoulders get to (intransitive) but not the action that gets them there.

"tilt" and "rotate" in the above sentence are both verbs. Verbs describe action. One action is to tilt, and the other is to rotate. However, I think I understand that you are saying that they get to a tilt (noun), technically by rotating, which is true, but you don't need to pick it down to that nit.

The above is convoluting Verbs........

You could say, "I rotate my shoulders to a 5 degree tilt, before I rotate them to move the bat."

This would be the correct grammatical use of the action.

Or, you could say, "My shoulders are on a tilt when I rotate them."

This would be proper also, because tilt here is the noun and rotate is the verb.

Tilt can mean an action or a thing.

Correct. If it is explaining what I'm doing to my shoulders(the object) it means lifting one side. Which is wrong..........

There, clear as mud......Ya happy now?????:hyper::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

BoardMember

01-04-2008, 07:16 PM

That depends on your perspective, don't ya think? Yours is definitely tilted from mine, Coach. :)

When I speak of tilting, I'm speaking of the shoulder complex ( to use your words) tilting or slanting, which changes the angle of the axis of rotation - the spine -

This would be "torso tilt" over the plate. If this is what your saying I agree.

just before the shoulder complex rotates AROUND the spine. This is somewhat analogous to the Earth rotating about an axis of rotation that is tilted or slanted 23.5 degrees from vertical.

Correct! We're saying the same thing.........

Coach, I could go with you if I was going to rotate my shoulders around a horizontal axis, but I'm not. I'm simply tilting - not rotating - the spinal axis of rotation, before I send my upper torso/shoulder complex rotating around this newly tilted axis of rotation.

THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT I'M SAYING...........

So we must be on the same page.

The Torso Tilts over the plate, the shoulders Rotate when swinging the bat......

I'm disputing people who are calling Shoulder Rotation - Shouder Tilting (in a rotational motion) :rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

BoardMember

01-04-2008, 07:26 PM

BM, (what is your fist name anyhow?),
Not to worry, I’ll just use the moniker BM.
BM, BM, BM,

Let’s see, - I once knew a guy that could wiggle his ears, …and he won a lot of money from me.
You see, - I bet him that he couldn’t , … but he could. Wiggle his ears, that is.
You’ve given me inspiration to get even.
I’m going to print out your Post # 147 …
http://www.baseball-fever.com/showpost.php?p=1083856&postcount=147
…and fold it up and put it my back pocket.
And then I’m going to tell him that I can rotate my ears.

Around the world, too!

Good Ray, I hope you get even. At least you understand rotation now.......:rofl:

The shoulder can rotate (amongst other articulations, and independently) while the spine is rotating.
Ooooops, sorry BM---
The shoulder can rotate while the shoulder can rotate.
.

Don't bet on it Ray, you'll just be broke again! :rofl:

Actually, the humerus can rotate within the shoulder "joint" while the shoulder complex rotates around the spine..........There really isn't any other rotation going on outside of these..........Well, except maybe the head.......

Sorry RAY:choke::hyper::shrug::)

jbooth

01-04-2008, 07:27 PM

There, clear as mud......Ya happy now?????:hyper::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

As James Brown (the King of Soul), once said when the cops arrested him,
"Y'all just keep MESSIN' wit me. Always MESSIN' wit me."
:D:crazy:waving

Slapper23

01-04-2008, 07:28 PM

BoardMember

01-04-2008, 07:35 PM

Limited.........Very Limited........

If is ain't level, it ain't rotation..........It's tilt?

It's tilted rotation.......Plain and simple.......

It couldn't be clearer then this explaination.......

I rotate my shoulders to a 5 degree tilt, before I rotate them to move the bat.

But I had a ton of fun with the first one!.......:shhh::rofl:

Man, after reading your response to Booth and now to me, I think my head is going to explode! Ever see that move, "Scanners"?

Tilt over the plate? Sure. But the tilt I'm really talking about (as you really know) is lateral tilt, Coach. So we don't agree. Again, I should have said lateral tilting. And my reasoning still stands.

I'm going to leave it at that, Coach. Similar to what Mark was saying, You see Blue and I see Green. Of course, I am correct and am not color blind. You need to quit drinking that Kool-Aid, Coach! :p

Mike

jbooth

01-04-2008, 07:42 PM

Man, after reading your response to Booth and now to me, I think my head is going to explode! Ever see that move, "Scanners"?

Tilt over the plate? Sure. But the tilt I'm really talking about (as you really know) is lateral tilt, Coach. So we don't agree. Again, I should have said lateral tilting. And my reasoning still stands.

I'm going to leave it at that, Coach. Similar to what Mark was saying, You see Blue and I see Green. Of course, I am correct and am not color blind. You need to quit drinking that Kool-Aid, Coach! :p

Mike

Well, I think the spine is tilted toward the plate a little bit, and then a little bit of lateral tilt occurs (but I hate that term), and then the shoulder complex rotation occurs. This causes the back shoulder to end up below the front shoulder at contact. The lateral tilt and shoulder rotation pretty much start at the same time, although maybe not exactly at the same time, the lateral tilt is slightly ahead. They aren't two actions separated by a lot of time or space.

Lateral tilt is just another term for what Mike Epstein calls "shoulder dip." The back shoulder drops a little before it rotates, and of course the front shoulder comes up when the back one drops. The lateral tilt is not a tilt of the spine toward the catcher. It's just a change of angle of the line between the shoulders. You dip and rotate. That's what Epstein and Williams both say, FWIW.

Slapper23

01-04-2008, 07:50 PM

Jim,

Voila! We are pretty much in agreement, but I would have to question that the upper spine angle does not change when the shoulders laterally tilt. And I really like most of Epstein's stuff, but Williams is the Man.

Mike

BoardMember

01-04-2008, 11:00 PM

Well, I think the spine is tilted toward the plate a little bit, and then a little bit of lateral tilt occurs

Lateral tilt occurs before rotation starts?

Jim, please show me this lateral tilt before rotation move in this clip:

http://i5.tinypic.com/6xtq3ph.gif

And here please:

http://i18.tinypic.com/6luawyg.gif

Oh and here also please:

http://i17.tinypic.com/8gf62dk.gif

Thx.........!

joof

01-04-2008, 11:40 PM

I believe that the """tilting""" is induced by separation between the pelvic and shoulders. The back arm moves in toward the side - has the appearance of slotting.

joof

Slapper23

01-05-2008, 07:00 AM

Joof,

Wow, that is a real "stretch." :) Lateral tilting blends into rotation, and the tilt has to be there for the batter to flatten the hands and set the swing plane. Tilt action toward the plate is also part of getting on plane, but not solely responsible as some parties believe, IMO.

Mike

jbooth

01-05-2008, 08:44 AM

Lateral tilt occurs before rotation starts?

Jim, please show me this lateral tilt before rotation move in this clip:

http://i5.tinypic.com/6xtq3ph.gif

And here please:

http://i18.tinypic.com/6luawyg.gif

Oh and here also please:

http://i17.tinypic.com/8gf62dk.gif

Thx.........!

You left out something else that I also said;

"The lateral tilt and shoulder rotation pretty much start at the same time, although maybe not exactly at the same time, the lateral tilt is slightly ahead. They aren't two actions separated by a lot of time or space.

The above statement is basically saying that I can't prove that they start at the same time or not. They may start exactly together, or maybe just slightly separate, I don't know. I certainly don't think that the lateral tilt is significantly before rotation.

joof

01-05-2008, 09:37 AM

Mike

I believe this clip of Soriano ilustrates the tilting-pelvic rotation relationship. And as you describe it blends with rotation. The extent that tilting overlaps with the pelvic rotation varies from hitter to hitter. Several importance consequences of the positioning of the upper torso via "tilting" initial - rotation can be listed .

Note frames 9,10 and 11

joof

BoardMember

01-05-2008, 12:37 PM

Interesting Joof.

I think it's amazing that Mike refers to the move as a change in the spine angle (backward toward the catcher is the only direction I can imagine) before rotation takes over:
When I speak of tilting, I'm speaking of the shoulder complex ( to use your words) tilting or slanting, which changes the angle of the axis of rotation - the spine - just before the shoulder complex rotates AROUND the spine.

And Jim says the rear shoulder dips and the front shoulder rises (which is rotation) but separates it as a "tilt", though they start together and continue uninterupted?........I guess because Epstein and Williams say so?
Lateral tilt is just another term for what Mike Epstein calls "shoulder dip." The back shoulder drops a little before it rotates, and of course the front shoulder comes up when the back one drops. The lateral tilt is not a tilt of the spine toward the catcher. It's just a change of angle of the line between the shoulders. You dip and rotate. That's what Epstein and Williams both say, FWIW.

While I totally disagree with Mike's "spine angle change before rotation takes over", Jim's explaination of this simultaneous dip/rise into uninterupted rotation being separated as "tilt" can only be understood as action caused from what is really just "initial balistic rotation" of a "torse tilted" spine angle.

When momentum goes from the "soft block" at toe touch to the "hard block" at "heal plant", momentum and energy are "sent up the pole" to the front shoulder (shortest conductive path) sending the complex into the "initial balistic movement" that is simply "shoulder rotation" on a tilted axis.

To say the shoulders are "tilting" or the "spine angle is changing before rotation" is just plain "making stuff up" about the swing.

"It ain't rocket science boys", unless of course the shoulders "MUST BE BYPASSED" to be a member. Then you better make something up to decribe an action that is obvious:

http://i6.tinypic.com/6z8t37p.gifhttp://i15.tinypic.com/85dkjfo.gif

Mike

I believe this clip of Soriano ilustrates the tilting-pelvic rotation relationship. And as you describe it blends with rotation. The extent that tilting overlaps with the pelvic rotation varies from hitter to hitter. Several importance consequences of the positioning of the upper torso via "tilting" initial - rotation can be listed .

Note frames 9,10 and 11

joof

BoardMember

01-05-2008, 02:24 PM

If you look really carefully, you can see the kinetic energy transfer right at heal plant! Don't blink or you might miss it!: :rofl:

http://i19.tinypic.com/8aa18jt.gif

Slapper23

01-05-2008, 04:44 PM

Coach,

Yeah, the Stretch Reflex of the upper torso does really capture it, doesn't it. We really do agree! :dance

Soriano shows the lateral tilting action and hand torquing/turning of the bat as he gets the hands flat quickly...a lot different that simple shoulder/lead arm pull of the knob. :)

Mike

Stealth

01-05-2008, 05:11 PM

Soriano shows the lateral tilting action and hand torquing/turning of the bat as he gets the hands flat quickly...a lot different that simple shoulder/lead arm pull of the knob.

I agree Slapper23 - the Soriano clip shows it well. Look how early he gets to a palm up palm down position with the hands. Way before contact...you cannot do it as you say with just shoulder/lead arm pull of the knob.

RayR

01-05-2008, 07:21 PM

I agree Slapper23 - the Soriano clip shows it well. Look how early he gets to a palm up palm down position with the hands. Way before contact...you cannot do it as you say with just shoulder/lead arm pull of the knob.

I agree. He doesn't do it with shoulder/lead arm pull. He does it by linking the front shoulder and bat as he rotates in a tilted path. The front shoulder doesn't stretch and the front elbow remains bent as he rotates the shoulders.

Soriano has tooth picks for arms, do you think he can really torque his hands and control that action without screwing up the swing. He would be unhinging early and most likely throwing his hands at the ball...and in the minors...

BoardMember

01-05-2008, 07:56 PM

Sorry Slapper, it appears we're way to far apart to ever agree.

It seems you believe that stretch reflex is delayed intil the 3rd frame of shoulder rotation. You know, the place where your magical "tilt" occurs that isn't really rotation?

Not me.

However, whether it's stretch reflex or transfer (which I believe) that starts the front of the shoulder complex rotating upwards on a tilted axis, there ain't no such thing as tilt that isn't synonymous with rotation on a tilted axis.

If you can prove otherwise on video, please feel free to give it your best shot......:) "Prove" being the key word here of course. :)

Hand/Handle torque and even THT has never been on my plate as an argument......

Coach,

Yeah, the Stretch Reflex of the upper torso does really capture it, doesn't it. We really do agree! :dance

Soriano shows the lateral tilting action and hand torquing/turning of the bat as he gets the hands flat quickly...a lot different that simple shoulder/lead arm pull of the knob. :)

Mike

Stealth

01-05-2008, 08:26 PM

I agree. He doesn't do it with shoulder/lead arm pull. He does it by linking the front shoulder and bat as he rotates in a tilted path. The front shoulder doesn't stretch and the front elbow remains bent as he rotates the shoulders.

Soriano has tooth picks for arms, do you think he can really torque his hands and control that action without screwing up the swing. He would be unhinging early and most likely throwing his hands at the ball...and in the minors...

RayR - are you kidding? Soriano is not strong? That's absurd - you don't do what he has done in the bigs and not be strong.

Go Cardinals

01-05-2008, 08:39 PM

Soriano is one of the biggest workers in the gym during the offseason.

Slapper23

01-05-2008, 10:03 PM

Coach,

Alas, I thought I was making headway with you. :( I see Blue, you see Green. You see, I have shown you on video, but yet you cannot see. I understand. I was there once, too, but my mind has been freed! :)

RayR,

I agree. He doesn't do it with shoulder/lead arm pull. He does it by linking the front shoulder and bat as he rotates in a tilted path.

Your linking of front shoulder and bat into the momentum path of the shoulders would be roughly equivalent to front shoulder/lead arm pulling of the knob, IMO.

Soriano has tooth picks for arms, do you think he can really torque his hands and control that action without screwing up the swing.

I wouldn't agree his arms are that of a weakling. And yeah, he is torquing the bat, or better yet, turning the bat between the hands as he tilts/rotates and gets the hands flat very quickly. Watch the position of the hands and see how fast they get to a palm up/palm down position. He doesn't do this by linking the front shoulder and bat to rotation, and pulling the knob, IMO.

Soriano turns the bat in his hands as he tilts and turns. He gets the bat into the swing/pitch path quickly and stays on plane longer that by pulling the knob...and this action allows him a split second more to make an adjustment to the pitch. At least that's what I see.

Mike

RayR

01-06-2008, 12:25 AM

OK, Soriano is big strong dude with Popeye arms. Everyone happy?

Please tell me in which frame does he start to torque the handle?

And even if technically his hands are the connection point to the bat and the bat gets sucked into the shoulders rotation, once again the hands are not the cause. Watch the front elbow. Watch the shoulders, watch the bat. Where do you see the hands turning the bat.

And to be even more precise, it is not his front shoulder doing the pulling, his scapulas are working on top of torso initiating the rotation.

Shoulder rotation is not the cause either.

Go Cardinals

01-06-2008, 01:22 AM

Either ten or eleven. I hardly know what handle torque even is. Thats my hunch though.

Encinitas

01-06-2008, 03:21 AM

I say the moment we see the hands start to move. And it doesn't stop, it's not a one frame thing. Soriano gets early bat speed and then can easily adjust to the height of the pitch. When you guys are testing this theory are you putting the extreme tipping up over the helmet into play? And then are you able to use the shoulders to get the barrel around using that path?

However, if my hands are turning the bat, the moment they start to move it makes it easier to adjust to location. No need to adjust posture. And, I prefer to see that shrug look of the front shoulder.

If my goal in this swing is focused on the hands the shoulders take care of themselves. He gets a good pre-stretch in the front scap, but --realizing we can only see what we see-- this swing shows hands are in charge.

http://www.hittingillustrated.com/library/Soriano3.gif

Now as to when hand torque starts again when the hands really start to go, the hands are turning the bat. David Wright. One pitch down and in, one pitch outside. Stare at the barrel. Why does the barrel angle start to totally change before we see any major turn into the ball action? Both swings setup the same, both have the "shrug"or lateral tilt, both get significant hip separation. From right there the barrel action is different.

http://coachdm.hittingillustrated.com/clips/Wright_6_23_27.gif

I happen to have the low ball clip front and back. Makes it easier to see the late upper body load.
http://coachdm.hittingillustrated.com/clips/wright_6_27_back.gif

http://coachdm.hittingillustrated.com/clips/wright_6_27_front.gif

RayR

01-06-2008, 06:10 AM

It would be more fair to compare same type pitches. One looks to be a fastball the other a slider. So, yeah, there will be an adjustment with his arms. One swing looks more defensive.

But, did Wright also adjust his posture for the different pitch locations?

http://coachdm.hittingillustrated.com/clips/Wright_6_23_27.gif

Wouldn't this effect swing path?

Slapper23

01-06-2008, 09:33 AM

Posture does change in the above clips of Wright. The clip on the left shows a down and slightly in pitch - Wright shows more lateral tilt with a much more pronounced diagonal swing. On the right, the pitch is up and away - Wright reads the pitch as running start is underway, waits on the pitch/lets it get deeper, and adjusts to the pitch with less tilt and more level shoulders. He goes out and gets the pitch.

In both pitch locations, Wright makes adjustments to the pitches he sees....and not simply by bend over at the waist toward the plate, IMHO. If anything, I would say his bend toward the plate is nearly identical in both situations, but lateral tilt( and yes, Coach BM, the tilting of the shoulders toward the catcher) in vastly different, as well as the hands/arm action.

But clearly, he is turning the bat with the hands and arms, gets the hands flat quickly and the swing on plane sooner. In both cases, he can wait longer on the pitch due to his hand and arm action.

Not saying I know everything about the swing (I don't!), but this is what I see/think/feel. :nod:

Mike

RayR

01-06-2008, 10:03 AM

Posture in terms of upper spinal tilt and not lateral tilt, but tilt in the sagital plane (over the plate). Lower pitch more sagital tilt, higher pitch (late adjustment is for slider moving away) and his sagital tilt is less. And not so much at the hips, but like I said upper spinal tilt. It's a postural adjustment.

For instance, if you able to draw a line shoulder to shoulder on both swings as he turned, they would be on different planes. You have seen clips of Wright from the back, he does not laterally tilt. These tilts are in the sagital plane and rotation makes it looks like a lateral tilt.

Right before contact, his bat and shoulder plane in both clips are pretty well lined up. The hands don't create this.

I still think he is somewhat fooled on the slider. Looking fastball up and then adjusts for the break as his arms extend. Shoulder rotation is even truncated as does this. If he was looking slider away I think it would be a different swing.

jbooth

01-06-2008, 10:39 AM

Please tell me in which frame does he start to torque the handle?

Not in any. It doesn't happen.

And to be even more precise, it is not his front shoulder doing the pulling, his scapulas are working on top of torso initiating the rotation.

It's both. The scaps are unloading while the shoulders turn, so the shoulder is pulling the lead arm at the same time the arms are pulling on the bat. The initial movement of the shoulder moves the arms/hands, and then the arms pull and the scaps unload.

Any movement of the upper arm, also moves the scaps. They're connected. The scaps "load" because of "loading" or positioning the hands. They "unload" with the movement of the arms. Remember that the scaps are bones, not muscles. The arm and scaps are connected, and various muscle actions move them both to execute arm movement.

I'm getting worried. You and I are starting to agree more, and more.:clapping:D

Slapper23

01-06-2008, 10:50 AM

Stealth

01-06-2008, 11:29 AM

Jbooth - Not in any. It doesn't happen.

The above is your response to if torque happens in the Soriano clip, however in your quotes below you admit there is torque (at least a little) - which is it Jim?

He moved the hands up and away from his body, which moved the handle out from under the head, which caused the head to fall. Kind of like dumping the bathead over his shoulder toward his back. That gives the bathead a "running start", but no torqing action is required, (or very little), and you can see that it doesn't go into an arc toward the catcher and around at the ball until frame 4, AFTER he has let it flatten as far as he wants, for that pitch.

Well, I can't guarantee what he did with his hands to flatten the bat, but I'm pretty darn sure he didn't torque the head into the approach arc. He might have torqued it to flatten it, but try what I said. You don't have to apply much force if you just manipulate the handle with your hands and arms.

RayR

01-06-2008, 11:46 AM

Remember that the scaps are bones, not muscles. The arm and scaps are connected, and various muscle actions move them both to execute arm movement.

I'm getting worried. You and I are starting to agree more, and more.:clapping:D

Muscles attached to spaulas: I guess instead of scapula we could start naming all the muscles. ;)

Muscle Direction Region
Pectoralis Minor insertion coracoid process
Coracobrachialis origin coracoid process
Serratus Anterior insertion medial border
Triceps Brachii (long head) origin infraglenoid tubercle
Biceps Brachii(short head) origin coracoid process
Subscapularis origin subscapular fossa
Rhomboid Major insertion medial border
Rhomboid Minor insertion medial border
Levator Scapulae insertion medial border
Trapezius insertion spine of scapula
Deltoid origin spine of scapula
Supraspinatus origin supraspinous fossa
Infraspinatus origin infraspinous fossa
Teres Minor origin lateral border
Teres Major origin lateral border
Latissimus Dorsi (a few fibers) origin inferior angle
Omohyoid origin superior border

jbooth

01-06-2008, 11:49 AM

Jbooth -

The above is your response to if torque happens in the Soriano clip, however in your quotes below you admit there is torque (at least a little) - which is it Jim?

The possible, small torque that I refer to; may happen during what I call, the bat flattening stage. There is NO torquing that accelerates the bathead at the ball.

I haven't talked with many MLB players (only 3), but they all said that there is no action of the top hand that pulls the bathead around, and I asked them if they had ever heard any of their teammates or anyone they had ever discussed hitting with, mention that action being used, and they said, "No."

In fact, they all said that they want to do as little as possible to the bathead, early in the process. Some, have said that they throw the head into the ball late, but nobody talks about early manipulation of the bathead other than to move it into position to launch the swing. And, when they launch the swing, their feeling is that of pulling the knob, not torqing the bathead.

The knob gets pulled toward the ground somewhat, then turned and pulled toward the pitcher. The change in direction of the knob can be done without early torqing at the hands.

RayR

01-06-2008, 11:51 AM

Any movement of the upper arm, also moves the scaps. They're connected. The scaps "load" because of "loading" or positioning the hands. They "unload" with the movement of the arms. Remember that the scaps are bones, not muscles. The arm and scaps are connected, and various muscle actions move them both to execute arm movement.

Which highlights why the idea of box maintenence is a pretty useful cue.

If you understand that the elbow needs to maintain whatever flexion it began with.

The only thing I would add is that it is possible for the action to originate in the back and not the arms.

jbooth

01-06-2008, 11:52 AM

Muscles attached to scapulas: I guess instead of scapula we could start naming all the muscles. ;)

Muscle Direction Region
Pectoralis Minor insertion coracoid process
Coracobrachialis origin coracoid process
Serratus Anterior insertion medial border
Triceps Brachii (long head) origin infraglenoid tubercle
Biceps Brachii(short head) origin coracoid process
Subscapularis origin subscapular fossa
Rhomboid Major insertion medial border
Rhomboid Minor insertion medial border
Levator Scapulae insertion medial border
Trapezius insertion spine of scapula
Deltoid origin spine of scapula
Supraspinatus origin supraspinous fossa
Infraspinatus origin infraspinous fossa
Teres Minor origin lateral border
Teres Major origin lateral border
Latissimus Dorsi (a few fibers) origin inferior angle
Omohyoid origin superior border

No, how about if we just use layman terms like arms, hands, and shoulders?

Move your hands back, turn the shoulders and pull with the arms.;):laugh

jbooth

01-06-2008, 12:01 PM

The only thing I would add is that it is possible for the action to originate in the back and not the arms.

Well, it depends on how picky and detailed you want to get about how the humerus (upper arm) moves.

As you know, several muscle actions are involved in order to move the upper arm, and the scapula (shoulder blade) usually moves when it moves. The shoulder blade is connected to the back, and to the arm, it is the "middle man" so to speak. So, muscles in the back and in the shoulder, and in the arm are all activated, in order to move the upper arm bone, and the scapula bone usually moves also.

It's difficult to move the scap without moving the upper arm, and it's difficult to move the upper arm without moving the scap. They are connected, and the arm is connected to the scap in more than one location, and the scap is connected to more than one part of the torso.

Stealth

01-06-2008, 12:21 PM

The knob gets pulled toward the ground somewhat, then turned and pulled toward the pitcher. The change in direction of the knob can be done without early torqing.

I am going to try and explain this with the written word - hopefully it comes across the way I want it to. Here goes.....

Jim - if I pull the knob with my bottom hand and I maintain the 90 degree angle of my back arm along with keeping my top hand cocked (very important) I feel torque. It's because the bottom hand and top hand work against each other - the bottom hand works to get the front elbow up and the bottom hand works against it so the back arm does not collapse - and to keep that hand cocked as long as possible. If I am trying to get to a palm up palm down position this has to happen IMHO. How else can it be done?

I look back at how I swung when I played and I did not do the above. I never got in the position guys like Soriano and Bonds etc. do. I can't stress enough how early in their swings they get to a palm up palm down position. When I try and duplicate what I see I have to torque the bat do it. I can't put a percentage of torque that I feel but it's there.

BoardMember

01-06-2008, 12:28 PM

The clip on the left shows a down and slightly in pitch - Wright shows more lateral tilt with a much more pronounced diagonal swing.

Wright makes adjustments to the pitches he sees....and not simply by bend over at the waist toward the plate, IMHO. If anything, I would say his bend toward the plate is nearly identical in both situations, but lateral tilt (and yes, Coach BM, the tilting of the shoulders toward the catcher) .........

Mike

Ok Mike, this is your chance to prove you are not tainted by the cult. This is your chance to disprove the Jim Jones Theory. This is your chance to prove you are "independent" like myself, and won't drink the cool-aid when offered.

This is your clip Mike. You know, the "down and in one". Both views.

Please point out the exact frame(s) of lateral tilt of any kind in the clip you've choosen that isn't simply Rotation on a Tilted Axis.

I just love 60fps clips, as they really show whats going on. Much more movement captured. No GAPS giving us Illusions. IE the Encinitas "shug" that supposedly "proves this lateral tilt of the cult".

The plane is on the tarmac Mike. It's leaving soon. Will you stay and drink when offered? Or will you leave? I'll gladly slide over and make room ;):

http://i10.tinypic.com/6keo2ns.gifhttp://i15.tinypic.com/6kfxnhv.gif

RayR

01-06-2008, 01:17 PM

RayR,

Thanks for the reply, but all I can say is WOW! I respect your opinion, but we are 180 degrees apart on what is happening in the swing. That's OK. I was once where you are at now, but I began seeing things differently than what I was told to believe. I'm still learning, too, but my we are on different paths.

Mike

Mike, and this not to be condescending, but I highly doubt you were where I am now.

I can't figure out why some of you guys took a path of exploring the idea of proximal to distal actions and decided that wasn't right and went back to distal dominant motor patterns.

Encinitas

01-06-2008, 01:18 PM

I haven't talked with many MLB players (only 3), but they all said that there is no action of the top hand that pulls the bathead around, and I asked them if they had ever heard any of their teammates or anyone they had ever discussed hitting with, mention that action being used, and they said, "No."

In fact, they all said that they want to do as little as possible to the bathead, early in the process. Some, have said that they throw the head into the ball late, but nobody talks about early manipulation of the bathead other than to move it into position to launch the swing. And, when they launch the swing, their feeling is that of pulling the knob, not torqing the bathead.

The knob gets pulled toward the ground somewhat, then turned and pulled toward the pitcher. The change in direction of the knob can be done without early torqing at the hands.

In all fairness in my estimation from listening to pro-hitters talk, if we want to go to that card then we should all shutup. They no more speak of maintaining the box than they do turning the barrel.

Me, I can't seem to make my barrel do that by maintaining a box around the corner. Why do pro-hitters bother with the Popeye forearms if they are not capable of exerting any reasonable force.

Go Cardinals

01-06-2008, 01:28 PM

Pro's have talked about that ... to some extent. This is from hsbweb: From burbanbran:

"Mr. _____, don't get bitter. I am not puffing my chest, there are just many of you that don't have a clue of what you are talking about, and young players read these forums and they need to know what is hogwash, and what isn't. And, who the source of the hogwash is. That is all. In a perfect swing, if the end of the bat were glowing in the dark, you should see a half moon type pattern. TO do this you would need to stay through the ball. If you didn't the end the glowing bat would look like more of angle pattern. I hope that picture makes sense. I am happy to help and be a resource. Not puffing. 11 years of pro ball, I lost my ego a long time ago."

dannyboy

01-06-2008, 02:24 PM

quote by RayR
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbooth
Remember that the scaps are bones, not muscles. The arm and scaps are connected, and various muscle actions move them both to execute arm movement.
I'm getting worried. You and I are starting to agree more, and more.

Muscles attached to spaulas: I guess instead of scapula we could start naming all the muscles.

Muscle Direction Region
Pectoralis Minor insertion coracoid process
Coracobrachialis origin coracoid process
Serratus Anterior insertion medial border
Triceps Brachii (long head) origin infraglenoid tubercle
Biceps Brachii(short head) origin coracoid process
Subscapularis origin subscapular fossa
Rhomboid Major insertion medial border
Rhomboid Minor insertion medial border
Levator Scapulae insertion medial border
Trapezius insertion spine of scapula
Deltoid origin spine of scapula
Supraspinatus origin supraspinous fossa
Infraspinatus origin infraspinous fossa
Teres Minor origin lateral border
Teres Major origin lateral border
Latissimus Dorsi (a few fibers) origin inferior angle
Omohyoid origin superior border

RayR, jbooth, BM, or anyone?

what muscles are chiefly responsible for "shoulder rotation"?

BoardMember

01-06-2008, 02:32 PM

The Hip and Hand Muscles???????? :rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

Bwaaaaaaa-hahahahaha

quote by RayR

RayR, jbooth, BM, or anyone?

what muscles are chiefly responsible for "shoulder rotation"?

dannyboy

01-06-2008, 02:47 PM

BM,

ya know when you first started posting (and members of this forum can go back and read them) here, you were very good in what you had to say.
now, all you want to do is yuk it up.

BoardMember

01-06-2008, 03:22 PM

BM,
ya know when you first started posting (and members of this forum can go back and read them) here, you were very good in what you had to say.

Well thx Ray...........

now, all you want to do is yuk it up.

I think all is a pretty stong word......Maybe its just your perception.

I'll admit that once in a while, I find things that are said here rather amusing and they CRACK ME UP!.........:D

Believe me, I'm not alone in finding humor in some of these threads........:debate:

For example, have we established yet whether the shoulder are rotating or tilting? Reading this thread might lead some to believe they must Rotilt.........or even.........Tiltate.......:rofl:

Have a nice day! :p :party:

RayR

01-06-2008, 03:28 PM

BM,

ya know when you first started posting (and members of this forum can go back and read them) here, you were very good in what you had to say.
now, all you want to do is yuk it up.

Ray, we don't have a history so I will take your question at face value.

I am more and more leaning to using the back muscles to get the scap action started and then reversing.

Yes, the upper arm can activate the scap muscles (scap is a bone, but many muscles attach there and I will not bother to explain this again for the sake of abbreviating posts) but the back muscles can also activate the scap complex. If you can free the shoulders of tension (no shrugging or tightening) and learn to use the back muscles to initiate the scaps, the shoulders will rotate in response.

And if you can maintain front elbow flexion as the back muscles initiate the scapula movement you will find that are able to move more freely and thus more quickly. BUT, it this is contingent on being able to relax the shoulders and lock the front elbow angle.

I hope this answered your question.

dannyboy

01-06-2008, 03:41 PM

BM,

I'll admit that once in a while, I find things that are said here rather amusing and they CRACK ME UP!.........

i didn't say anything amusing in my previous post.

prove my perception is wrong. answer the question.

dannyboy

01-06-2008, 03:48 PM

RayR,

I hope this answered your question.

not really.
you listed specific muscles in a prior post,...so i assumed you have a knowledge of muscles and what movements they are responsible for.
thanks for trying.

RayR

01-06-2008, 03:55 PM

RayR,

not really.
you listed specific muscles in a prior post,...so i assumed you have a knowledge of muscles and what movements they are responsible for.
thanks for trying.

Please enlighten me. It sounds as if you have all the answers.

dannyboy

01-06-2008, 04:11 PM

RayR,

It sounds as if you have all the answers.

i don't wish to mislead you. i don't have all the answers, but i do have one specific to the question that i asked. i wanted to see others responses before answering.

wayback

01-06-2008, 04:15 PM

I'd like to go with "Serratus Anterior" for $1000, Alex.

jbooth

01-06-2008, 04:32 PM

quote by RayR

Ray, jbooth, BM, or anyone?

what muscles are chiefly responsible for "shoulder rotation"?

I've answered this many times, and I answered it in this thread in post #129

If you're sitting in a chair like this;

http://www.exrx.net/AnimatedEx/Obliques/LVTwistGripless.gif

It is primarily the internal and external obliques. If you are swinging a bat, the legs and muscles in the pelvic area rotate the torso, of which the shoulders are a part, but the shoulders can also be moved with the obliques.

The legs turn the hips and the obliques stretch so that the shoulders don't immediately rotate simultaneously with the hips. But, then the obliques contract and the shoulders rotate while the hips are rotating, but faster, and catch up with the hips.

dannyboy

01-06-2008, 05:16 PM

http://www.getbodysmart.com/ap/muscularsystem/abdominalmuscles/externaloblique/tutorial.html

http://www.getbodysmart.com/ap/muscularsystem/shouldermuscles/anteriormuscles/serratusanterior/tutorial.html

yes, wayback, but you must first put it in the form of a question to collect.

ps. your post was funny. spit my beer over the monitor.

wayback

01-06-2008, 05:29 PM

Thanks. My initial reaction was to argue with the poster after mine. As I was writing, I experimented, and realized it was both the SA and the obliques. :clapping

RayR

01-06-2008, 05:46 PM

I've answered this many times, and I answered it in this thread in post #129

If you're sitting in a chair like this;

http://www.exrx.net/AnimatedEx/Obliques/LVTwistGripless.gif

It is primarily the internal and external obliques. If you are swinging a bat, the legs and muscles in the pelvic area rotate the torso, of which the shoulders are a part, but the shoulders can also be moved with the obliques.

The legs turn the hips and the obliques stretch so that the shoulders don't immediately rotate simultaneously with the hips. But, then the obliques contract and the shoulders rotate while the hips are rotating, but faster, and catch up with the hips.

Jim, are you saying the scap complex is not involved with the creation of shoulder rotation? Or are you saying the obliques are responsible for the scap action?

If so, do you think it is possible to initiate scap action as you resist with the hips meaning there would not be a stretch in the obliques? Or maybe the resistance of the hips would create the stretch in the obliques that would aid the shoulder rotation? I am not trying to riddle, honest.

jbooth

01-06-2008, 05:52 PM

Jim, are you saying the scap complex is not involved with the creation of shoulder rotation? Or are you saying the obliques are responsible for the scap action?

If so, do you think it is possible to initiate scap action as you resist with the hips meaning there would not be a stretch in the obliques? Or maybe the resistance of the hips would create the stretch in the obliques that would aid the shoulder rotation? I am not trying to riddle, honest.

What does the scapula have to do with rotating the vertebral column, to which the shoulders are attached, and is the axis point for the rotation of the shoulder joints?

Ray Porco gave you the link to the animation that corroborates my answer;

http://www.getbodysmart.com/ap/muscularsystem/abdominalmuscles/externaloblique/tutorial.html

The seratus anterior moves the arm, it doesn't make the shoulders rotate around the spinal axis.

RayR

01-06-2008, 05:53 PM

RayR

01-06-2008, 05:56 PM

What does the scapula have to do with rotating the vertebral column, to which the shoulders are attached, and is the axis point for the rotation of the shoulder joints?

dannyboy gave you the link to the animation that corroborates my answer;

http://www.getbodysmart.com/ap/muscularsystem/abdominalmuscles/externaloblique/tutorial.html

Jim, I am talking about scap action independent of the torso. What you are describing is a fused move.

jbooth

01-06-2008, 05:58 PM

Thanks. My initial reaction was to argue with the poster after mine. As I was writing, I experimented, and realized it was both the SA and the obliques. :clapping

The seratus anterior moves the arm, it doesn't make the shoulders rotate around the spinal axis.
Click below to see what the SA does;

http://www.getbodysmart.com/ap/muscularsystem/shouldermuscles/anteriormuscles/serratusanterior/tutorial.html

jbooth

01-06-2008, 06:00 PM

Jim, I am talking about scap action independent of the torso. What you are describing is a fused move.

Again, what does that have to do with Ray Porco's question. He asked what muscles rotate the shoulders. "Rotate the shoulders" in my book is rotation of the joints around the spinal axis. The spine is rotated by the obliques, but the shoulder joints rotate when the spine rotates.

Geez, are we debating what "is" is?

wayback

01-06-2008, 06:16 PM

put the dang websites away. Stand up in stance. Stride. Let the hips open (create stretch). Put your front side hand on your rear side (as defined in hitting stance...not your backside.lol). Now, as you tilt and turn the shoulders....feel the obliques and SA. As the rear arm drops, and the shoulder tilts and turns, ...the SA and obliques contract.

Slapper23

01-06-2008, 06:23 PM

Coach! You are wearing me out.

In the left clip, the shoulders tiilt back toward the catcher, just before rotating in around frame 11-12. Notice there is no turning back of the front shoulder until frame 13-14. It's there, Coach, and I say this Kool-aid free.

In the right clip, he tilts around frame 10, then a frame or two later he is rotating. But, this is a blended, overlapping move from tilt (or dipping the back shoulder as Ted Williams mentioned) into rotation. Coach, the hitter could simply rotate on an untilted, vertical axis if he wanted and have a level shouldered look, but he doesn't. He tilts the shoulders and rotates.

Although I have enjoyed our discussions over the past few days, I don't believe we are going to agree here. We look at the same videos and come to opposite conclusions. Come on over to HI.com and we'll get you schooled proper like! :D

RayR,

Mike, and this not to be condescending, but I highly doubt you were where I am now.

Oh for gosh sakes, how could I ever even think you were being condescending, my dear sir. Some of us just do the best we can with what intellectual capacities we have, ya know? So you are probably right that I was nowhere near the position you find yourself in today.

I can't figure out why some of you guys took a path of exploring the idea of proximal to distal actions and decided that wasn't right and went back to distal dominant motor patterns.

If it were as you described above, I would be trying to figure out what the hell I was doing, too. Fortunately, you are far off the mark, even though there have been reams of posts explaining "arm action is King in Hitting, too." Fortunate too, is the fact that kinetic chaining still works, it's just not controlled or synchronized in the MLB sequence as you have been led to believe.

Mike

randy

01-06-2008, 06:23 PM

the headbone's connected to the neckbone, the neckbone's connected to the...everybody sing with me!
Sorry, just trying to insert some levity. Wow, do ya'll teach kids this way?
You guys should have gone to med school and become surgeons...

BoardMember

01-06-2008, 06:31 PM

BM,
i didn't say anything amusing in my previous post.

prove my perception is wrong. answer the question.

Looks like Booth beat me to it while I was taking down the Xmas lights!

Thx Booth. You did answer this question already in this thread.

Hey Ray, I actually did find your question funny because what instantly came to mind is the tilt croud here saying "Hips and Hands Drive the swing".

And that cracked up!:D

On a foward note: What was the purpose of your question? Is there a followup point pertaining to the thread?

RayR

01-06-2008, 06:39 PM

RayR,

Oh for gosh sakes, how could I ever even think you were being condescending, my dear sir. Some of us just do the best we can with what intellectual capacities we have, ya know? So you are probably right that I was nowhere near the position you find yourself in today.

If it were as you described above, I would be trying to figure out what the hell I was doing, too. Fortunately, you are far off the mark, even though there have been reams of posts explaining "arm action is King in Hitting, too." Fortunate too, is the fact that kinetic chaining still works, it's just not controlled or synchronized in the MLB sequence as you have been led to believe.

Mike

So, the secret is to be uncontrollable and unsynchronized? That makes sense.

wayback

01-06-2008, 06:50 PM

"Rotate the shoulders" in my book is rotation of the joints around the spinal axis. The spine is rotated by the obliques, but the shoulder joints rotate when the spine rotates".

Are you saying the spine, in it's entirety, rotates as one?

If so, you're wrong.

If not, then what allows the shoulders to catch up to the hips is contraction of the muscles between the hips and the shoulders.

Now, the rhomboid would be relevent if you are talking about the front shoulder adducting. Because that is the action between the rhomboid and the shoulder, pulling the shoulder rearward.

I am new here, and haven't read your post history. Are you advocating pulling action by the front shoulder?

RayR

01-06-2008, 06:50 PM

Again, what does that have to do with Ray Porco's question. He asked what muscles rotate the shoulders. "Rotate the shoulders" in my book is rotation of the joints around the spinal axis. The spine is rotated by the obliques, but the shoulder joints rotate when the spine rotates.

Geez, are we debating what "is" is?

Sorry. He asked what muscles are chiefly responsible for "shoulder rotation." I took that to mean in the context of a ML swing.

Define responsible. I could say the lack of rain is responsible for the drought, but maybe a shifting weather pattern is, or maybe it is environmental.

BoardMember

01-06-2008, 07:05 PM

Coach! You are wearing me out.

In the left clip, the shoulders tiilt back toward the catcher, just before rotating in around frame 11-12. Notice there is no turning back of the front shoulder until frame 13-14. It's there, Coach, and I say this Kool-aid free.

A clear case of The Emperor's New Clothes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Emperor's_New_Clothes)

Tilt back around frame 11-12 and not rotating until 13-14 eh? Wow. You've got it bad.....Real Bad. It's like I said. You can't argue with "Dogma". :evil

http://i13.tinypic.com/8g53ck2.gif

In the right clip, he tilts around frame 10, then a frame or two later he is rotating. But, this is a blended, overlapping move from tilt (or dipping the back shoulder as Ted Williams mentioned) into rotation. Coach, the hitter could simply rotate on an untilted, vertical axis if he wanted and have a level shouldered look, but he doesn't. He tilts the shoulders and rotates.

He tilts around frame 10 eh? Tilts toward the catcher? We can see that isn't happening. Tilts over the plate? I already said that, and you said "NO, that ain't the tilt I mean". "I mean toward the catcher".

http://i9.tinypic.com/720sxoy.gif

There is no tilt without fully initiated shoulder rotation.

What tilt is it Slap? I offered the tilted axis over the plate and you demanded that wasn't the tilt you were refering to.

Look, I'm trying to learn here. :lookitup What tilt are you talking about?

So far, nothing you've said about this magic "tilt" holds up.

So far, there is no tilting that isn't fully initiated rotation...........Its pretty clear. :evil

Although I have enjoyed our discussions over the past few days, I don't believe we are going to agree here. We look at the same videos and come to opposite conclusions. Come on over to HI.com and we'll get you schooled proper like! :D

Mike

IF, and I'll repeat, IF, you can show me something that proves I should join HI and learn anything other then "buzz words" or the "New Cloths" cult, I'd be happy to. So far, you haven't done a good job convincing me......:D

swingbuilder

01-06-2008, 07:05 PM

The shoulder can rotate while the shoulder can rotate

Makes perfect sense!!:applaud:

wayback

01-06-2008, 07:05 PM

The seratus anterior moves the arm, it doesn't make the shoulders rotate around the spinal axis.
Click below to see what the SA does;

http://www.getbodysmart.com/ap/muscularsystem/shouldermuscles/anteriormuscles/serratusanterior/tutorial.html

I think you should go back and check your video again. It is a problem when you rely too much on web sites and not real life use. Use the little action knob on your site there, and you'll see the serratus anterior moves the arm away from the body....and pulls it toward the body. If the serratus anterior functions bringing the rear arm to slot with momentum and power....it is surely assisting with the tilt and rotation of the shoulders.

dannyboy

01-06-2008, 07:50 PM

Is there a followup point pertaining to the thread?

there was. and what i personally thought (regarding differentiating between temporally concurrent shoulder articulations and upper torso rotation) would/could lead to some interesting 3D analysis, but i've lost my interest and desire to communicate my opinion, chiefly because of the excessive (mo) good ol' knee slapping and acrimony (thanks Mike, and i'm as responsible as any).

And BM,

Some suggested reading:

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6T6Y-4CT64XX-2&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=a937d7522dd6c4f9bb31d926a7cdb307

and I know you like wiki, so look up Rudolf Laban (LMA, specifically).

here's a link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laban_Movement_Analysis

BoardMember

01-06-2008, 08:26 PM

Looks interesting Ray. I'll give it a once over.......Thx....:thumbsup:

there was. and what i personally thought (regarding differentiating between temporally concurrent shoulder articulations and upper torso rotation) would/could lead to some interesting 3D analysis, but i've lost my interest and desire to communicate my opinion, chiefly because of the excessive (mo) good ol' knee slapping and acrimony (thanks Mike, and i'm as responsible as any).

And BM,

Some suggested reading:

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6T6Y-4CT64XX-2&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=a937d7522dd6c4f9bb31d926a7cdb307

and I know you like wiki, so look up Rudolf Laban (LMA, specifically).

here's a link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laban_Movement_Analysis

Encinitas

01-06-2008, 09:46 PM

Mike, and this not to be condescending, but I highly doubt you were where I am now.

I can't figure out why some of you guys took a path of exploring the idea of proximal to distal actions and decided that wasn't right and went back to distal dominant motor patterns.

If I keep my shoulders relaxed, allow for good lead arm extension during the stride, as well as either barrel tipping, or up and over back elbow, my shoulders will end up loading late but without me thinking about them. From this point if my goal is to get the hands started and resist a hard left turn of the shoulder, then, I can let the shoulders do what they will.

Buster correctly insisted that a pronated back hand cannot come forward as it's first move. There's your connection. It's late, it happens when hips have gotten started. The hands stay near the shoulder as the swing starts because if Wright brought them into the zone without the arc, he's never square it up. The barrel has to take that path.

Again I am not able to unload the shoulders and create that barrel path without using the hands. When I watch this clip I made of Cabrera, I see a good front scap stretched away from spine, I see the back elbow up and over, and I see the hands having to move the barrel a long way, so they create the early bat speed. Since the bat is on the move he recognizes the sinking ball, and can simply direct the barrel. I don't ever say the shoulders don't rotate, I just see the shoulders catching up to the hips and responding the hands. This doesn't look like a box around the corner.

http://coachdm.hittingillustrated.com/clips/Cabrera_0804_xmo.gif

BoardMember

01-07-2008, 01:40 PM

Wow Enc. Did you really write this? Part of it sounds like its taken directly from a playbook.

I'm actually pretty confused over this post.

I don't think anyone is against a running start, whether it's a tip, up and over, or just a rear elbow load into toe-touch. (Of course the latter seems the easiest to incorporate/time in the swing).

With that said, if you wouldn't mind answering/explaining a few questions for me please, for my own education on your theory. I've bolded my questions to make it easier to pick them out. There are only 4 questions:

1.) You said: "I see a good front scap stretched away from spine". Please explain why this is beneficial, in your words.

2.) You've described what you call a "Late Connection" as optimal. Please describe the other 2 types of connections (IE On-time and Early) and explain why the "Late Connection" is better then On Time and/or Early connection..

3.) You said: "The hands stay near the shoulder as the swing starts" which is pretty obvious if you believe in connection. But you added: "because if Wright brought them into the zone without the arc, he'd never square it up. The barrel has to take that path. Again I am not able to unload the shoulders and create that barrel path without using the hands"

Please explain "the arc". What arc? If was never explained before using it in the sentence. Also, if you could elaborate on "not squaring it up if this arc isn't taken". In otherwords what arc, and how would Wright swing the bat that wouldn't meet your qualifications of the "arc" to get it squared?

Last, please explain why this path can only be taken using the hands. You said it, but really didn't explain why its true.

I know I'm asking alot, but I'm really unclear on most of what you're saying.

Some of it sounds a bit rhetorical to me.

Thx! :thumbsup:

Stealth

01-07-2008, 02:10 PM

Please explain "the arc". What arc? If was never explained before using it in the sentence. Also, if you could elaborate on "not squaring it up if this arc isn't taken". In otherwords what arc, and how would Wright swing the bat that wouldn't meet your qualifications of the "arc" to get it squared?

BM - can you seriously not see the arc in the swings that have been posted before?

Encinitas

01-07-2008, 03:34 PM

1.) You said: "I see a good front scap stretched away from spine". Please explain why this is beneficial, in your words.

I am a feel guy, and when I am in that setup, I feel more ready to hit. Donny used to call it rocking the U, getting the front elbow past the belly button. At one time Loren had a great post about getting your head over the seam of the shirt and used some pics of Soriano. Combined with tipping the barrel out towards the field the shoulders wind up tilted with the front down and in. I don't have all the answers here as to why this is preferable. I'll let you whiz-bang kids to igure out the linking between the Rhomboid-Lazurus-Laurinitis musculature.

2.) You've described what you call a "Late Connection" as optimal. Please describe the other 2 types of connections (IE On-time and Early) and explain why the "Late Connection" is better then On Time and/or Early connection..

Early connection to implies tension in the setup. If you consider the Donny BHUT stuff, he insisted that shoulders optimally load late in the chain. This also works with Yeager's "relaxed shoulders" in the setup. Separation is the goal, and if you are too tense, the shoulders will turn with the hips.

3.) You said: "The hands stay near the shoulder as the swing starts" which is pretty obvious if you believe in connection. But you added: "because if Wright brought them into the zone without the arc, he'd never square it up. The barrel has to take that path. Again I am not able to unload the shoulders and create that barrel path without using the hands"

Please explain "the arc". What arc? If was never explained before using it in the sentence. Also, if you could elaborate on "not squaring it up if this arc isn't taken". In otherwords what arc, and how would Wright swing the bat that wouldn't meet your qualifications of the "arc" to get it squared?

Barrel path. This is a low pitch. The barrel path goes from pointing out towards the field down and around behind the hitter. As far as qualifications, I don't have qualifications that meet the Encinitas test. I am sure somewhere at some level people can just bend over and hit the ball, but this swing has that golf hack feel and I have to ask why some of these guys take the low pitch 400 feet. I have yet to see any of the major guru's systems attempt to recreate that barrel path. The arc on a typical swing is down and around that back shoulder. This ball is low and inside, so there is not as much of an angle.

Last, please explain why this path can only be taken using the hands. You said it, but really didn't explain why its true.

I said I can only duplicate this with the hands, and I have yet see anyone prove to me that they can do it using the preferred methods around these parts. I am open-minded. A barrel-splitting or barrel in front of the helmet setup to get the bat into the zone. I can't do it. I cannot imagine maintaining the box and mimicking this bat path. I don't have a slide rule, but I think Wright's bat tip goes close over 250 degrees by contact point here (sorry I am only capable of thinking in 2D.

http://coachdm.hittingillustrated.com/clips/wright_7_4_side.gif

Some of it sounds a bit rhetorical to me.

Screw arm action, Rhetoric is king.

BoardMember

01-07-2008, 03:42 PM

BM - can you seriously not see the arc in the swings that have been posted before?

Stealth, if you read Enc. entire post, he said:

"because if Wright brought them into the zone without the arc, he'd never square it up."

I'm not sure if the arc he's refering is an "arc of the hand path"? Which is what I think he might mean because he's talking about the hands here IE "them into the zone".

Or is it the "arc of the bat head" because he states:
"The barrel has to take that path. Again I am not able to unload the shoulders and create that barrel path without using the hands"

Basically I'm unclear what "arc" he's refering to. It seems sort of convoluted in his post so I asked "what arc".

Stealth

01-07-2008, 03:50 PM

Basically I'm unclear what "arc" he's refering to. It seems sort of convoluted in his post so I asked "what arc".

It would be the arc of the bathead. Have you been able to duplicate that path (the arc) when you swing a bat? As I said earlier the only way I can do it is by using the hands/forearms. And as Encinitas said if you can show me how to do it otherwise I am all ears.

BoardMember

01-07-2008, 03:51 PM

Enc., thx for taking the time. I'm going to point out a few things this evening when I get time, maybe use a few more clips to point some stuff out, and ask for your input/comments regarding some of this stuff.

I just wanted to be clear before doing so........

Thx again!.......:gt

I am a feel guy, and when I am in that setup, I feel more ready to hit. Donny used to call it rocking the U, getting the front elbow past the belly button. At one time Loren had a great post about getting your head over the seam of the shirt and used some pics of Soriano. Combined with tipping the barrel out towards the field the shoulders wind up tilted with the front down and in. I don't have all the answers here as to why this is preferable. I'll let you whiz-bang kids to igure out the linking between the Rhomboid-Lazurus-Laurinitis musculature.

Early connection to implies tension in the setup. If you consider the Donny BHUT stuff, he insisted that shoulders optimally load late in the chain. This also works with Yeager's "relaxed shoulders" in the setup. Separation is the goal, and if you are too tense, the shoulders will turn with the hips.

Barrel path. This is a low pitch. The barrel path goes from pointing out towards the field down and around behind the hitter. As far as qualifications, I don't have qualifications that meet the Encinitas test. I am sure somewhere at some level people can just bend over and hit the ball, but this swing has that golf hack feel and I have to ask why some of these guys take the low pitch 400 feet. I have yet to see any of the major guru's systems attempt to recreate that barrel path. The arc on a typical swing is down and around that back shoulder. This ball is low and inside, so there is not as much of an angle.

I said I can only duplicate this with the hands, and I have yet see anyone prove to me that they can do it using the preferred methods around these parts. I am open-minded. A barrel-splitting or barrel in front of the helmet setup to get the bat into the zone. I can't do it. I cannot imagine maintaining the box and mimicking this bat path. I don't have a slide rule, but I think Wright's bat tip goes close over 250 degrees by contact point here (sorry I am only capable of thinking in 2D.

http://coachdm.hittingillustrated.com/clips/wright_7_4_side.gif

Screw arm action, Rhetoric is king.

RayR

01-07-2008, 05:19 PM

Early connection to implies tension in the setup. If you consider the Donny BHUT stuff, he insisted that shoulders optimally load late in the chain. This also works with Yeager's "relaxed shoulders" in the setup. Separation is the goal, and if you are too tense, the shoulders will turn with the hips.

http://coachdm.hittingillustrated.com/clips/wright_7_4_side.gif

I agree that too much tension will cause a shoulder/hip fused turn. You need to relax the shoulders to let the muscles of the back activate the scapulas to their fullest potential.

jbooth

01-07-2008, 06:21 PM

Jim, I am talking about scap action independent of the torso. What you are describing is a fused move.

OK, I finally get what you mean, but I call that upper arm movement within the shoulder joint. But, I now see your point that you can hold the clavicle in place, and move one upper arm bone backward in the shoulder joint, and the other forward, and that could be described as rotation, but it's not what I'm talking about.

When I say "shoulder rotation" I mean that the clavicle moves when the spinal column rotates. But, I agree that you can also move both humerus bones and scapulas at the shoulder joint, independant of clavicle movement.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you seem to be calling the switching of position of the scapulas/humerus' as "shoulder rotation."

If so, then I agree, that that can happen on top of clavicle/spinal rotation.

RayR

01-07-2008, 06:55 PM

OK, I finally get what you mean, but I call that upper arm movement within the shoulder joint. But, I now see your point that you can hold the clavicle in place, and move one upper arm bone backward in the shoulder joint, and the other forward, and that could be described as rotation, but it's not what I'm talking about.

When I say "shoulder rotation" I mean that the clavicle moves when the spinal column rotates. But, I agree that you can also move both humerus bones and scapulas at the shoulder joint, independant of clavicle movement.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you seem to be calling the switching of position of the scapulas/humerus' as "shoulder rotation."

If so, then I agree, that that can happen on top of clavicle/spinal rotation.

Yes, for the sake of keeping things easy to understand, I call this scap reversal action shoulder rotation.

I think Bonds is a great example of this scap action. He swings his upper arms up and then reverses this action. This reversal rotates the shoulders. Some people may see this initially as a shrug. I think the shrug is a reaction partly from the force of the scap reversal and by keeping the elbow angle from changing.

Some people may think he is simply lifting his hands, but I see it as scap action swinging his upper arms up. I also believe the keys to this are to keep the shoulders relaxed and the important link is the elbow joint. This joint needs to remain as constant as possible. If the elbow joint changes its flexion during the reversal, the front shoulder will stretch and leave the bat behind.

I think if the elbow joint angle is allowed to change during the initial scap action (load) it becomes more of a deltoid move. Pure scap action, IMO, is about keeping the elbow angle constant.

And keeping the shoulders relaxed allows the scaps to move more independently of the torso.

Now, here is something I am investigating: As the scap action starts, the hips resist, storing energy. They resist from counter rotating and get added energy as you vertically load. Right before the scap action reverses, the hips release their energy and rotate. This event kind of springs the hips. I know I probably lost you here, but why not give this a shot?

Back to the scaps, I know an argument can be the upper arms move the scaps, but I think the back muscles (not sure which ones) move the scapulas which move the upper arms.

http://ramellibandr.com/SHA/Bonds4.gif