Shoulder Rotation (Hitting)

[FiveFrameSwing]

Shhhhhh......:shhh: We're talking about the hands here........

Just answer the question 5....:cool:

Okay, I'll play. I figure I can only win from this game ... even if I lose.

<<
Multiple Choice. In the video below, which is the correct statement:

A.) The hands are in charge of the shoulder complex?

B.) The hands are slave to the shoulder complex?
>>

I have a hard time with "A". What muscle in the hands is commanding the shoulder complex? I can move the fingers on my hand using muscles in my hands, but I can't seem to move the shoulder using only muscles in my hand. Maybe it's just me, or maybe I don't know how to use my body appropriately.

Is this a trick question?

I don't see how one could select 'A'.

I think you're playing with me.

[RayR]

FFSwing



No, not until I open my eyes!!!

joof

Is that the secret?

[FiveFrameSwing]

FFSwing



No, not until I open my eyes!!!

joof

I get your message ... using your eyes and viewing data objectively isn't a trait common to everyone ... but let's not go that route just yet.

[BoardMember]

No trick, just a simple question based on the video.

A.) The hands are in charge of the shoulder complex?

B.) The hands are slave to the shoulder complex?

Not what you think. WHAT THE VIDEO SHOWS.......



Just trying to get a clear "Path" to some answers.......(no pun intended) :)


Okay, I'll play. I figure I can only win from this game ... even if I lose.

<<
Multiple Choice. In the video below, which is the correct statement:

A.) The hands are in charge of the shoulder complex?

B.) The hands are slave to the shoulder complex?
>>

I have a hard time with "A". What muscle in the hands is commanding the shoulder complex? I can move the fingers on my hand using muscles in my hands, but I can't seem to move the shoulder using only muscles in my hand. Maybe it's just me, or maybe I don't know how to use my body appropriately.

Is this a trick question?

I don't see how one could select 'A'.

I think you're playing with me.

[joof]

BM

"I'll bet the farm" on "B". Otherwise I will have to trash related ideas like kinetic chain, ballistic movement and chaos theory as pertaining to the swing.


joof

[FiveFrameSwing]

No trick, just a simple question based on the video.

A.) The hands are in charge of the shoulder complex?

B.) The hands are slave to the shoulder complex?

Not what you think. WHAT THE VIDEO SHOWS.......



Just trying to get a clear "Path" to some answers.......(no pun intended) :)


If this isn't a trick, then I'll have to go with the obvious answer ... "B".

[Encinitas]

How about the frontal view of the exact some hit. Cabrera loads up, I'll call it load the barrel. The barrel as you can see from the front is on the move before the first shoulder movement.



Now as far as I am concerned the early bat speed is visible before the shoulders are moving. From a front view I think the way he is able to adjust to this ball is even more striking.

[RayR]

How about the frontal view of the exact some hit. Cabrera loads up, I'll call it load the barrel. The barrel as you can see from the front is on the move before the first shoulder movement.



Now as far as I am concerned the early bat speed is visible before the shoulders are moving. From a front view I think the way he is able to adjust to this ball is even more striking.

If you are talking about the forward movement of the bat, how do account for change of direction and how that might mitigate whatever early bat speed might have been achieved?

[RayR]

Watch Vlad's rib cage and back (front side). Anyone see what I see.

[BoardMember]

Enc, I see it. I want to go slow. Please answer my first question based the the video. I'm not trying to rip things up, I really want to make it clear in my mind.

You've never treated me with anything but respect. I plan to stay that course with you. I just have some questions I'd like answered with regard to your original post.

So, if you please, A or B?




How about the frontal view of the exact some hit. Cabrera loads up, I'll call it load the barrel. The barrel as you can see from the front is on the move before the first shoulder movement.



Now as far as I am concerned the early bat speed is visible before the shoulders are moving. From a front view I think the way he is able to adjust to this ball is even more striking.

[Encinitas]

If you are talking about the forward movement of the bat, how do account for change of direction and how that might mitigate whatever early bat speed might have been achieved?

I am talking about what happens from the moment of max tip to when we see the shoulders move. The barrel is moving rearward before the shoulders engage.



In this clip there are two frames of barrel movement before the shoulders are on the move. Two frames is pretty significant. If you take those two frames as the hands starting things, then it's not unreasonable to think the shoulders are then responding to what the brain knows the hands have to do. Yes the shoulders have to turn. They aren't powering this swing.

[Stealth]

BM - did you answer my earlier post? Have you tried to duplicate the path - or "the arc" in the swing. Seriously - have you ever swung a bat? To say the hands are a slave to the shoulder is absolutely absurd. I honestly can't believe you think that to be the case.

[joof]

Encinitas,


I am talking about what happens from the moment of max tip to when we see the shoulders move. The barrel is moving rearward before the shoulders engage.



In this clip there are two frames of barrel movement before the shoulders are on the move

So I am sure as to which frames you are referencing please direct me to the numbered frames in this clip.

Thanks, joof

[BoardMember]

BM - did you answer my earlier post? Have you tried to duplicate the path - or "the arc" in the swing.

You mean this one?

Have you been able to duplicate that path (the arc) when you swing a bat? As I said earlier the only way I can do it is by using the hands/forearms. And as Encinitas said if you can show me how to do it otherwise I am all ears.

Sorry I didn't. I'm having to log on and off due to my VERY LARGE honey-do list. So I only have snippits of time this evening.

IF your question is can you get to that pitch without the hands/arms playing a role, some role, my answer is not likely. OK?

Now would you like to answer my question?

In case you forgot:

Based on THIS video as it stands, which is the correct answer?

A.) The hands are in charge of the shoulder complex?

B.) The hands are slave to the shoulder complex?

Not what you think. WHAT THIS VIDEO SHOWS.......



You don't have to of course.


Seriously - have you ever swung a bat?

Seriously Stealth, unless I'm guessing wrong (and I'm not asking you to reveal your age), I've probably swung a bat in competition for half of your lifetime.

I've probably been coaching for possibly 3/4's of your lifetime. Unless of course you're over 40. Then my estimates are off a bit.


To say the hands are a slave to the shoulder is absolutely absurd. I honestly can't believe you think that to be the case.

[Encinitas]

Encinitas,



So I am sure as to which frames you are referencing please direct me to the numbered frames in this clip.

Thanks, joof

Frames 15-16-17 the barrel is on the move. In fact one could argue it's the hands/forearms controlling the tipping of the barrel in all of the frames prior but that's not really the point here. Finally in frame 18 we see the shoulders start to move. Are two frames of the barrel tip on the move insignificant? In any case I think you can make a clear case here where the hands recognize what needs to be done, and respond.

[Stealth]

BM - Go swing a bat and answer my original question. You are not that busy...........you will not be able to create the arc of the bathead if the hands are a slave to the shoulders - it won't happen, period. If you have been in baseball as long as you say you have I cannot believe you don't see what the hands do in the swing.

Oh yeah, I answered your original question for the second time.

[BoardMember]

Stealth, is it all all possible that what I see/feel the hands doing is not exactly what you see/feel the hands doing?

I've probably swung a bat in more different ways in my 35 years of swinging and coaching then you have in your life time, OK? Here's a hint. To this day, Jack Nicholas and Arnold Palmer are still working on their swings.

Tiger Woods made a swing change in '07 because he wasn't satisfied with his results, EVEN THOUGH HE'S NUMBER ONE IN THE WORLD. There is no room for "dogma" on my plate.

By the way, as god is my witness, I did swing a bat today. Infact I swung one at work, duplicating the path we're speaking of from both your and enc. posts. In fact, my employee were asking "what the hell are you doing?" And I told them YOU said I couldn't make the barrel do what it does without HAND TORQUE.

And I didn't have any problem doing it. I'll let you know how later. But first we have to wade through the BS.

You're very impatient. :happy:

And you said you answered my question? Was It A, or B based on the clip I showed you?


BM - Go swing a bat and answer my original question. You are not that busy...........you will not be able to create the arc of the bathead if the hands are a slave to the shoulders - it won't happen, period. If you have been in baseball as long as you say you have I cannot believe you don't see what the hands do in the swing.

Oh yeah, I answered your original question for the second time.

[BoardMember]

Encinitas, will you answer the question? It's ok if you don't. I'll understand why.

Now I'd like you to take a look at these 2 clips, side by side.

The left side shows the circling move before shoulder turn, and the right is frozen at max tip, then shows the circling movement. Both show the first few frames of shoulder rotation. There are NO frames missing from the clips.

Answer my second question if you like. It's multiple choice as well:

In the next 2 clips, at what point is the barrel of the bat being sent rearward into the arc:

A.) Before Shouder Turn

B.) After Shouder Turn






Frames 15-16-17 the barrel is on the move. In fact one could argue it's the hands/forearms controlling the tipping of the barrel in all of the frames prior but that's not really the point here. Finally in frame 18 we see the shoulders start to move. Are two frames of the barrel tip on the move insignificant? In any case I think you can make a clear case here where the hands recognize what needs to be done, and respond.

[Encinitas]

I don't know where this is going but I do the back elbow move and the shoulders move before I see hand torque.

What we call lateral tilt you call rotation of shoulders in a different plane or whatever the delay or resistance of the hard left turn of the shoulder is the same no matter what we decide to call it.

The really accelerated movement of the barrel seems to occur after what we call lateral tilt. And I don't care if you hate that term, call it what you want instead, all I am saying is the hands accelerate this barrel:



And this where the barrel seems to have a lot farther to go than the shoulders turn:



In any case I look forward to the clips.

[BoardMember]

Assuming we should move along, here is my next question.

In the following clip showing the circling of the bat, which is the correct answer:

A.) The circling move is primarily the result of movement the Humerus Bones above the elbow joint.

B.) The hands, wrists and forearms below the elbow joint are moving and rotating and changing the position of the bat head, circling the bat.

[Encinitas]

Assuming we should move along, here is my next question.

In the following clip showing the circling of the bat, which is the correct answer:

A.) The circling move is primarily the result of movement the Humerus Bones above the elbow joint.

B.) The hands, wrists and forearms below the elbow joint are moving and rotating and changing the position of the bat head, circling the bat.



B.

You know it's late, and I just don't care about this deep functional talk. It doesn't actually help anyone teach hitting and more likely hurts it. As Loren is fond of saying give a kid a little form and maybe he'll find function. Or the old, when I pick a pen on the table what's in charge?

[BoardMember]

Yes I've seen the clip showing the barrel arcing as the shoulders are done sending the barrel into maximum escape velocity. What does that prove regarding the shoulder complex? Nothing. It's completely void (on purpose) of the MOST IMPORTANT use of the shoulder complex. TO SEND THE BAT HEAD INTO MAXIMUM ESCAPE VELOCITY. It is the body's "Flywheel" if you will.



Once the barrel is sent into maximum escape velocity, it's going to have a further distance to travel then the shoulders from lag to contact. Its traveling almost 100mph and the shoulders are basically about done!



Take a good look at the clip on the right. Are the hands accelerating or decelerating once they leave the shoulders complex?

Now ask youself this. What the hell is connection, and why do we need it?

Can you torque the bat without connection? You betcha. Can you make the bat head go 100mph without connection? No friggin way dude. No friggin way. Why the heck do you think that is?

Tell Jim Jones to put the whole clip together and show it to you. You'll see is clear as day. And if you look, you'll see it in EVERY good swing.

I call it The Flywheel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flywheel)...........

Here's a new buzz word for ya. What you call "handle torque" I call "Resisting Lag".................Think about that for awhile Enc........It's a way more accurate explaination of what you feel in the swing.

Instant early handle torque, IF TRUE, would send the barrel out of lag prematurely.

Tomorrow we'll get into how to get the bat path you see on the Cabrera and Wright clips we been discussing WITHOUT handle torque. It isn't hard.

And in all seriousness, I hope that handle torque makes your kids tons of money for college tuition...........

After all, from there it's basically "out of our hands"..........:thumbsup:

Best Regards..........

[Stealth]

I've probably swung a bat in more different ways in my 35 years of swinging and coaching then you have in your life time, OK?

BM - you should not have assumed, you are wrong on the above statement.

For a third time the hands are not a slave to the shoulders.

[FiveFrameSwing]

Tomorrow we'll get into how to get the bat path you see on the Cabrera and Wright clips we been discussing WITHOUT handle torque. It isn't hard.


BM, tomorrow has come (relative to yesterday of course).

I'll add that I have students duplicating this barrel path without using handle torque. One commonality is that all of these students angle the bat back towards the field during their forward weight shift & lead arm extension. Those that don't angle their bat back towards the field aso don't duplicate this bat path.

In my opinion, the students that have a two-plane swing appear to be duplicating this barrel path to a finer degree ... allthough I will emphasize that this is a judgement call on my behalf.

Let me take a wild stab at your explanation and guess that it has something to do with the lead shoulder and/or lead arm.

Now, as for your use of the term "resisting lag" ... please tell me if that action is reserved for the top hand/arm, while the lead hand/arm/shoulder is reserved for the initiation of the particular barrel path in question.

In any event ... I found this conversation to be informative and would appreciate seeing it continued.

[BoardMember]

BM - you should not have assumed, you are wrong on the above statement.

For a third time the hands are not a slave to the shoulders.

Ok great Stealth, so your answer is A, "The hands are in charge of the shoulder complex" in this clip.

[JeffK 29]

BM,

Coming in late so I figured I'd take a shot at your questions for my own learning. Here are my answers with a couple qualifiers.

Newer guys like me gotta be learning allot here so keep going.

Based on THIS video as it stands, which is the correct answer?

A.) The hands are in charge of the shoulder complex?

B.) The hands are slave to the shoulder complex?

I see "B". The hands are locked into position and being rotated with the shoulders.

In the next 2 clips, at what point is the barrel of the bat being sent rearward into the arc:

A.) Before Shouder Turn

B.) After Shouder Turn

I see "B". I'll add that I see hips, shoulders, bat as the order of movement.

A.) The circling move is primarily the result of movement the Humerus Bones above the elbow joint.

B.) The hands, wrists and forearms below the elbow joint are moving and rotating and changing the position of the bat head, circling the bat.

This is tuff for me. It's difficult to see without relating back to a swing and trying to feel what I think is happening. The above 2 were easy to see.

I see the lead arm pushing back
I think I see the rear arm loading independent of what has been referred to as (counter) rotating shoulders.

I guess I gotta go with "A". Although something ituitive is telling me the wrists could be doing something here. I just cant see the detail.

Jeff

[FiveFrameSwing]

A.) The circling move is primarily the result of movement the Humerus Bones above the elbow joint.

B.) The hands, wrists and forearms below the elbow joint are moving and rotating and changing the position of the bat head, circling the bat.

This is tuff for me. It's difficult to see without relating back to a swing and trying to feel what I think is happening. The above 2 were easy to see.

I see the lead arm pushing back
I think I see the rear arm loading independent of what has been referred to as (counter) rotating shoulders.

I guess I gotta go with "B". Although something ituitive is telling me the wrists could be doing something here. I just cant see the detail.

Jeff

This is how I see it as well.

It's virtually impossible to obtain lead arm extension while restricting shoulder movement. Try repeating this bat action while keeping the shoulders fixed ... it won't happen.

[BoardMember]

Hey Great Jeff. From the amount of PM's I've recieved in the last 24 hrs, you're not the only one taking a look at this stuff.

Althougth I'm a little confused by the last answer.

You chose B.) The hands, wrists and forearms below the elbow joint are moving and rotating and changing the position of the bat head, circling the bat.

Which says the hands and wrists are moving and changing position and circling the bat head, but then added "Although something ituitive is telling me the wrists could be doing something here." Which is confusing if you already chose the answer that included this.

I've got to run out to a job. Be back later on this afternoon.

-------------------------------------

Hey Stealth, You a golfer?




BM,

Coming in late so I figured I'd take a shot at your questions for my own learning. Here are my answers with a couple qualifiers.

Newer guys like me gotta be learning allot here so keep going.

Based on THIS video as it stands, which is the correct answer?

A.) The hands are in charge of the shoulder complex?

B.) The hands are slave to the shoulder complex?

I see "B". The hands are locked into position and being rotated with the shoulders.

In the next 2 clips, at what point is the barrel of the bat being sent rearward into the arc:

A.) Before Shouder Turn

B.) After Shouder Turn

I see "B". I'll add that I see hips, shoulders, bat as the order of movement.

A.) The circling move is primarily the result of movement the Humerus Bones above the elbow joint.

B.) The hands, wrists and forearms below the elbow joint are moving and rotating and changing the position of the bat head, circling the bat.

This is tuff for me. It's difficult to see without relating back to a swing and trying to feel what I think is happening. The above 2 were easy to see.

I see the lead arm pushing back
I think I see the rear arm loading independent of what has been referred to as (counter) rotating shoulders.

I guess I gotta go with "B". Although something ituitive is telling me the wrists could be doing something here. I just cant see the detail.

Jeff

[JeffK 29]

I said B. I meant A. I revised my original. Sorry for the confusion.

[FiveFrameSwing]

I said B. I meant A. I revised my original. Sorry for the confusion.

I still see part of the bat path as due to lead arm extension.

Perhaps I read the question incorrectly, because if I freeze the shoulders I'm not able to replicate that motion.

[Stealth]

Ok great Stealth, so your answer is A, "The hands are in charge of the shoulder complex" in this clip.



BM - my statement stands - the hands are not a slave to the shoulders. The slo motion clip you post here is very misleading. If you want the shoulders to be in charge of the swing go for it - I will agree to disagree 100%. No big deal.

Now in regards to this - "The hands are in charge of the shoulder complex" - I believe the hands work early in the swing and connection with the shoulders is important. I believe you cannot pre-set your hands and then let the shoulders take over by just rotating as you describe it. If you look at that slo motion clip I can see you telling kids to do nothing with the hands - look son just get your hands near the rear shoulder and rotate. Taking the hands away from a hitter is a HUGE mistake IMHO.

Just last night I watched a high school kid taking a lesson. Big strong kid. The kids bat never moved before he swung. No separation, no stride, no pre swing movement, nothing. It looked like the kid was starting in his stance like he was already at toe touch and then trying to rotate. All he could do was spin and hit grounders to SS all day. It was painful to watch.

I thought if Swingbuster (or someone else) could get him to do the inside seam drill, get the kids bat vertical and BHUT the kid could improve in one lesson. Get the hands right and good things happen!


Yes I do golf.

[JeffK 29]

I still see part of the bat path as due to lead arm extension.

Perhaps I read the question incorrectly, because if I freeze the shoulders I'm not able to replicate that motion.

5,

I revised choice to "A". Which matches my words. I think you would pick "A" based on your words. Am I right?

JeffK

[FiveFrameSwing]

5,

I revised choice to "A". Which matches my words. I think you would pick "A" based on your words. Am I right?

JeffK

Yes, the choice is "A".

[wrstdude]

The hands tell my body what to do when I swing a bat with the intent of hitting a baseball.

[JeffK 29]

Hey Stealth,

I think your right. The hands are important. I have not resolved the total swing process in my mind yet. I can tell you what I am learning is not how I swung as a player. The main difference is in the hands. The cue "quick hands" told me to throw my hands at the ball, immediatlely...first move (after load/step). The cue "you're pulling off the ball" told me the shoulders needed to be behind the hands. I've learned that's not the case. I think the hands have important things to do. I think it's also important that they dont do things too early. In my case, my hands are ingrained to release way too early which messes up the timing of things. So as I apply the hips shoulders thing to my swing it's extremely difficult to not release my hands. I'm learning that the hips/shoulders need to get the hands in place to do what the hands need to do. A big indicator of this to me is the question regarding shoulder position at contact. I find it extremely difficult to get to the position where the rear shoulder has come around. The cue that helps me best is to delay the release of my hands from the shoulder area. I really need to slow my tempo down to achieve the proper position.

That's my take away on this so far.

Jeff








BM - my statement stands - the hands are not a slave to the shoulders. The slo motion clip you post here is very misleading. If you want the shoulders to be in charge of the swing go for it - I will agree to disagree 100%. No big deal.

Now in regards to this - "The hands are in charge of the shoulder complex" - I believe the hands work early in the swing and connection with the shoulders is important. I believe you cannot pre-set your hands and then let the shoulders take over by just rotating as you describe it. If you look at that slo motion clip I can see you telling kids to do nothing with the hands - look son just get your hands near the rear shoulder and rotate. Taking the hands away from a hitter is a HUGE mistake IMHO.

Just last night I watched a high school kid taking a lesson. Big strong kid. The kids bat never moved before he swung. No separation, no stride, no pre swing movement, nothing. It looked like the kid was starting in his stance like he was already at toe touch and then trying to rotate. All he could do was spin and hit grounders to SS all day. It was painful to watch.

I thought if Swingbuster (or someone else) could get him to do the inside seam drill, get the kids bat vertical and BHUT the kid could improve in one lesson. Get the hands right and good things happen!


Yes I do golf.

[FiveFrameSwing]

The hands tell my body what to do when I swing a bat with the intent of hitting a baseball.

I don't doubt the "intent" of that statement at all (although the hands don't actually have a brain, I understand that you mean that they can serve as a focal point for "triggering" other portions of the swing).

Chris Yeager even has drills for the purpose of synchronizing other portions of the body with the hands.

Given the short time period to perform the task of hitting, it's important that the entire Kinetic Link be executed in a fluid and synchronized fashion. There is no time to think about moving one's feet and each individual segment within the Kinetic Link.

Despite having an experienced hitter being able to concentrate on their hands, one still needs to understand what moves what if they are going to teach those that don't yet have a clean Kinetically Linked swing.

As an example, you don't teach a correction to the lower body mechanics by having the hands move differently. Yet, it is possible to get a student to achieve clean lower body mechanics and then synchronize this with the hands ... at which point the hands can then serve as the trigger.

I don't believe BM disagrees that the hands can serve as a trigger. I know I don't.

The process of teaching hitting mechanics involves understanding how to teach a clean Kinetically Linked swing. Instructors such as Chris Yeager then recommend synchronizing this to the hands. At that point a focus on the hands can be, and likely is, a hitter's best choice ... but not until they have synchronized their hands to a clean Kinetically Linked swing.

I respect how this can be confusing.

[wogdoggy]

I believe you cannot pre-set your hands and then let the shoulders take over by just rotating as you describe it. If you look at that slo motion clip I can see you telling kids to do nothing with the hands - look son just get your hands near the rear shoulder and rotate. Taking the hands away from a hitter is a HUGE mistake IMHO.




AMEN! :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

[GFK]

The hands tell my body what to do when I swing a bat with the intent of hitting a baseball.

How do your hands tell your body what to do? At most, the hands may give some feedback to your brain. From the way you worded this, your hands are in control of your body motion.

Second point, wrstdude, unless you have a high level swing, we are not really discussing your swing!

[wogdoggy]

I think we all know the hands dont have a brain,,but neither do your hips or shoulders.,,but if you want to hit a ball sweet..you just cant tilt and hit...

[wrstdude]

How do your hands tell your body what to do? At most, the hands may give some feedback to your brain. From the way you worded this, your hands are in control of your body motion.

Second point, wrstdude, unless you have a high level swing, we are not really discussing your swing!

Do you have a high level swing? What difference does it make if I have a high level swing or not? Why are you discussing anything at all if you yourself do not have a high level swing?

[wrstdude]

I don't doubt the "intent" of that statement at all (although the hands don't actually have a brain, I understand that you mean that they can serve as a focal point for "triggering" other portions of the swing).



Thank you...I was worried that people were unable to read in a non-literal sense.

[jbooth]

The cue that helps me best is to delay the release of my hands from the shoulder area. I really need to slow my tempo down to achieve the proper position.

Jeff

It is very good that you understand that. That is what "keep the hands back" primarily means. You can "take the hands to the ball" but, you better not do it by getting the hands ahead of the shoulder rotation.

[jbooth]

I don't doubt the "intent" of that statement at all (although the hands don't actually have a brain, I understand that you mean that they can serve as a focal point for "triggering" other portions of the swing).

Chris Yeager even has drills for the purpose of synchronizing other portions of the body with the hands.

Given the short time period to perform the task of hitting, it's important that the entire Kinetic Link be executed in a fluid and synchronized fashion. There is no time to think about moving one's feet and each individual segment within the Kinetic Link.

Despite having an experienced hitter being able to concentrate on their hands, one still needs to understand what moves what if they are going to teach those that don't yet have a clean Kinetically Linked swing.

As an example, you don't teach a correction to the lower body mechanics by having the hands move differently. Yet, it is possible to get a student to achieve clean lower body mechanics and then synchronize this with the hands ... at which point the hands can then serve as the trigger.

I don't believe BM disagrees that the hands can serve as a trigger. I know I don't.

The process of teaching hitting mechanics involves understanding how to teach a clean Kinetically Linked swing. Instructors such as Chris Yeager then recommend synchronizing this to the hands. At that point a focus on the hands can be, and likely is, a hitter's best choice ... but not until they have synchronized their hands to a clean Kinetically Linked swing.

I respect how this can be confusing.

Good post. I totally agree. Pro hitters think about their hands, because they don't need to think about the rest. The rest all works properly most of the time. Kids must learn how to create the link, and how to move from the ground up. Then, as you say, they can waggle the bat, do whatever, and time their hand and pre-launch movements with the body's movement.

[RayR]

I am talking about what happens from the moment of max tip to when we see the shoulders move. The barrel is moving rearward before the shoulders engage.



In this clip there are two frames of barrel movement before the shoulders are on the move. Two frames is pretty significant. If you take those two frames as the hands starting things, then it's not unreasonable to think the shoulders are then responding to what the brain knows the hands have to do. Yes the shoulders have to turn. They aren't powering this swing.


This is a shoulder thread, we are now venturing into the pelvic area

As the front heel drop he lowers his center of gravity (vertical load/ unweighting the body) this action pulls on his back arm. This is the early movement of the bat you may see. This is also the beginning of hip rotation. He blends vertically loading and rotation.

In the frame that the heel drops the scap action is also beginning to reverse.

The frame after the heel drops, scap action is in full reversal and bringing the shoulders and bat around.

In 2 frames, there is a tremendous amount going on and it is not about the hands.

[wogdoggy]

This is a shoulder thread, we are now venturing into the pelvic area

As the front heel drop he lowers his center of gravity (vertical load/ unweighting the body) this action pulls on his back arm. This is the early movement of the bat you may see. This is also the beginning of hip rotation. He blends vertically loading and rotation.

In the frame that the heel drops the scap action is also beginning to reverse.

The frame after the heel drops, scap action is in full reversal and bringing the shoulders and bat around.

In 2 frames, there is a tremendous amount going on and it is not about the hands.


try to tilt and hit that pitch..if he stays tilted etc he'd be horizontal.

[Slapper23]

Jim,

You're getting warmer....


and time their hand and pre-launch movements with the body's movement.

Mike

[RayR]

try to tilt and hit that pitch..if he stays tilted etc he'd be horizontal.

Are you saying he isn't tilted? Which way is he not tilted. If you mean towards the catcher then I agree.

[jbooth]

Jim,

You're getting warmer....



Mike

Warmer to what? Certainly not to the way that you think it works.

[Slapper23]

Jim,

Warmer to what, you ask? Well, to the concept of hand/arm actions or movements synchronizing the timing and sequencing of the swing. You were close to saying that, but still not quite there yet.

Mike

[Slapper23]

RayR,

I think what Woggy was getting at was if the hitter used front bend at waist toward the plate to adjust to pitch height...while keeping that box intact..he would be bent over nearly 90 degrees.

As it is, the hitter has tilt toward the plate, first set during lateral tilting action, and used hand/arm action to adjust to the low pitch. His hands are well below his waist at contact...a real "tee" swing. Using the axiom held by some of "adjust to up and down using front bend at waist", he wouldn't have touched the ball. Luckily, he demonstrated the MLB pattern that takes advantage of late adjustment with the hands/arms. As Pujols says, to paraphrase, "I think fast hands...be quick with my hands."

Mike

[Stealth]

RayR,

I think what Woggy was getting at was if the hitter used front bend at waist toward the plate to adjust to pitch height...while keeping that box intact..he would be bent over nearly 90 degrees.

As it is, the hitter has tilt toward the plate, first set during lateral tilting action, and used hand/arm action to adjust to the low pitch. His hands are well below his waist at contact...a real "tee" swing. Using the axiom held by some of "adjust to up and down using front bend at waist", he wouldn't have touched the ball. Luckily, he demonstrated the MLB pattern that takes advantage of late adjustment with the hands/arms. As Pujols says, to paraphrase, "I think fast hands...be quick with my hands."

Mike

Yep, good post.

[RayR]

RayR,

I think what Woggy was getting at was if the hitter used front bend at waist toward the plate to adjust to pitch height...while keeping that box intact..he would be bent over nearly 90 degrees.

As it is, the hitter has tilt toward the plate, first set during lateral tilting action, and used hand/arm action to adjust to the low pitch. His hands are well below his waist at contact...a real "tee" swing. Using the axiom held by some of "adjust to up and down using front bend at waist", he wouldn't have touched the ball. Luckily, he demonstrated the MLB pattern that takes advantage of late adjustment with the hands/arms. As Pujols says, to paraphrase, "I think fast hands...be quick with my hands."

Mike


Who says you cannot extend to make an adjustment?

This pitch is dropping out of the zone fast. Don't you think he saw fastball and then did what he had to do to make contact with this pitch?

Do you really believe that on a ball straight down the middle he is going to approach it the same way? Do you really believe this is Cabrera's optimum swing?

[wogdoggy]

RayR,

I think what Woggy was getting at was if the hitter used front bend at waist toward the plate to adjust to pitch height...while keeping that box intact..he would be bent over nearly 90 degrees.

As it is, the hitter has tilt toward the plate, first set during lateral tilting action, and used hand/arm action to adjust to the low pitch. His hands are well below his waist at contact...a real "tee" swing. Using the axiom held by some of "adjust to up and down using front bend at waist", he wouldn't have touched the ball. Luckily, he demonstrated the MLB pattern that takes advantage of late adjustment with the hands/arms. As Pujols says, to paraphrase, "I think fast hands...be quick with my hands."

Mike

Thank You!:bowdown:

[Slapper23]

Who says you cannot extend to make an adjustment?


Oh, but wait a minute, wait a minute! Remember you only have 0.4 seconds, with half that dedicated to swinging the bat. One particular school of thought, which I used to partake in, repeatedly pounded into my head that there is no time to make any late adjustments or so-called "hand jobs!" And!...the part about setting swing path by adjusting posture by front bend at waist.

Well, I show you Cabrera.


This pitch is dropping out of the zone fast. Don't you think he saw fastball and then did what he had to do to make contact with this pitch?

Do you really believe that on a ball straight down the middle he is going to approach it the same way? Do you really believe this is Cabrera's optimum swing?


You nailed it, Ray, and I mean that sincerely. And, your quote says alot about why you, me, and most Americans are not playing in the "Bigs."


Mike

[Stealth]

Who says you cannot extend to make an adjustment?

This pitch is dropping out of the zone fast. Don't you think he saw fastball and then did what he had to do to make contact with this pitch?

Do you really believe that on a ball straight down the middle he is going to approach it the same way? Do you really believe this is Cabrera's optimum swing?


RayR - some people believe tilt is the only way to adjust to pitch location. You are correct - he had to use his hands/arms to adjust.

[jbooth]

Jim,

Warmer to what, you ask? Well, to the concept of hand/arm actions or movements synchronizing the timing and sequencing of the swing. You were close to saying that, but still not quite there yet.

Mike

And, I won't ever be there, because it is't true, IMO.

[Slapper23]

Jim,

I always appreciate your opinion...it's just wrong, in this case...IMO. Don't ever say never...you just never know, ya know? ;)

Mike

[RayR]

Oh, but wait a minute, wait a minute! Remember you only have 0.4 seconds, with half that dedicated to swinging the bat. One particular school of thought, which I used to partake in, repeatedly pounded into my head that there is no time to make any late adjustments or so-called "hand jobs!" And!...the part about setting swing path by adjusting posture by front bend at waist.

Well, I show you Cabrera.



You nailed it, Ray, and I mean that sincerely. And, your quote says alot about why you, me, and most Americans are not playing in the "Bigs."


Mike

Mike, of course there is time to make a late adjustment, we see it all the time. But, and you said it, it is a LATE adjustment. The hands have not adjusted until after the shoulders have started turning. You do see that, don't you?

One of my questions to those who believe the hands drive the swing is why bother tilting at all? Why not just steer the hands to contact? Wouldn't it be easier to stand more erect and direct your hands to the ball? Wouldn't it be harder to tilt/sit and steer your hands to the ball?

[swingbuilder]

Wouldn't it be easier to stand more erect and direct your hands to the ball?

Yep.

Keep your rear butt cheek tall! Ever hear the word collapse?

Also, Cabrea knew it was a breaking pitch. He did not abandon his mechanics to hit this breaking ball.

[Slapper23]

Ray,


Mike, of course there is time to make a late adjustment, we see it all the time. But, and you said it, it is a LATE adjustment. The hands have not adjusted until after the shoulders have started turning. You do see that, don't you?


The hands and arms are doing a lot before the shoulders turn, but I digress...the point is, Cabrera made an adjustment to the pitch on one hell of a sinker by adjusting with his hands/arms AS he is rotating AND tilting. Some have said this late adjustment cannot be done because there is not enough time. Cabrera does it very well.


One of my questions to those who believe the hands drive the swing is why bother tilting at all? Why not just steer the hands to contact? Wouldn't it be easier to stand more erect and direct your hands to the ball? Wouldn't it be harder to tilt/sit and steer your hands to the ball?

Aah! Now you go to an illogical extreme. Ay ya yay!! :ughh

Mike

[dannyboy]

[wogdoggy]

Yep.

Keep your rear butt cheek tall! Ever hear the word collapse?

Also, Cabrea knew it was a breaking pitch. He did not abandon his mechanics to hit this breaking ball.

stay tall from the waist up bend the legs get a nice lower posture but stay tall from the waist up.

[RayR]

Ray,



The hands and arms are doing a lot before the shoulders turn, but I digress...the point is, Cabrera made an adjustment to the pitch on one hell of a sinker by adjusting with his hands/arms AS he is rotating AND tilting. Some have said this late adjustment cannot be done because there is not enough time. Cabrera does it very well.



Aah! Now you go to an illogical extreme. Ay ya yay!! :ughh

Mike

Who said the late adjustment can't be done?

[RayR]

stay tall from the waist up bend the legs get a nice lower posture but stay tall from the waist up.

What does stay tall mean? Perp to the ground?

[Stealth]

What does stay tall mean? Perp to the ground?

Often times when you face a fast pitcher this cue is used. If you swing and miss you almost always swing under the ball. With a pitcher bringing the heat "stay tall" and get on top of the ball. It makes you keep the hands a bit higher and the thought is also to be quicker/shorter to the ball.

Williams discusses this in his book as well. I don't think he used this exact cue but the point is the same.

[FiveFrameSwing]

Often times when you face a fast pitcher this cue is used.

Other cues I'll often hear when facing a strong FB pitcher include "move back in the batter's box", "use a lighter bat" and "stride earlier".

[BoardMember]

OK what did I miss?.......Guess I should go back and read em all eh? :blah:



Other cues I'll often hear when facing a strong FB pitcher include "move back in the batter's box", "use a lighter bat" and "stride earlier".

[FiveFrameSwing]

OK what did I miss?.......Guess I should go back and read em all eh? :blah:

I've been waiting for you to follow up on the following ....


<<<
By the way, as god is my witness, I did swing a bat today. Infact I swung one at work, duplicating the path we're speaking of from both your and enc. posts. In fact, my employee were asking "what the hell are you doing?" And I told them YOU said I couldn't make the barrel do what it does without HAND TORQUE.

And I didn't have any problem doing it. I'll let you know how later. But first we have to wade through the BS.
>>>

[BoardMember]

I just went back to read all the posts I missed. Wow, lots of thoughts being passed around. You still here? If so, I'll get into how/where I believe adjustments are made, and paths are determined..........I'll post this and continue to edit..........This could be a long post......sorry......:happy:

In a nut shell, there are three factors I believe are involved in adjustment to up and down pitches, and NONE of them have to do with hand torque. They are not new and maybe fairly obvious. But, they are proven IMO not only from video, but experience.

1.) Obviously Posture. There is NO DOUBT in my mind that torso tilt increases on the low pitch and decreases on the up pitch.

2.) The lead arm. But more precisely, the lead elbow. However, it's the altitude not the attitude of the lead elbow as the hands release from the shoulder complex.

3.) Timing of release of the hands from the shoulder complex. Which is timed/coupled with # 2 above.

There's no doubt that the front elbow needs to be working in an Attitude/Position that will eventually lead it upwards to some extent in the swing.

However, on the low pitch, the hands will release from the complex within approx. 1(+) frames of connection, and the lead elbows "altitude" will be at or below the front of the up-arc. On the middle pitch, the hands stay connected for approx. 2(+) frames, and the lead elbow is just past the front of the up-arc. And of the high pitch, the hands stay connected for approx. 3+ frames, and the elbow is approaching the top quarter up-arc at release. All based on 30fps.

This obviously varies with the infinite locations of the pitch, but these are approx. guidelines IMO. They can be based on the distance to optimal contact the ball is from the sternum (about launch height of the hands) of the hitter for all locations IMO.

In otherwords, HOW LONG IS CONNECTION and HOW IS IT QUANTIFIED?

Something like this chart:



It isn't absolute, as hitting is as individual as the nose on your face. It's just my system for teaching adjustment, which IMO is one of the most overlooked parts of hitting.

In otherwords HOW DOES A COACH TEACH ADJUSTMENT?

Oh I know, JUST TORQUE THE HANDLE right?! :rofl:

Five, if you've followed my posts regarding the box, I've always said the maintainence IMO, is only until the hands release from the shoulder complex.

I said there ARE examples of maintainence into contact, and you can see why when using my theory of adjustment stated above. The closer the ball is to the sternum, the longer the box will be maintained IMO.

So here is what I believe, and the reason for the "truncated clip" of Cabrera in SUPER SLO-MO. I saw it as a visual to show how the hands are slave to the shoulder DURING CONNECTION IMO. There ain't NOTHIN goin on during that time but angular acceleration from the shoulder complex.

That was going to be my point Enc., based on your statement that "the shoulders will take care of themselves". IMO, the shoulders and the shoulders complex are taking care of a hellava lot more then themselves.........

This is why I can't say the are "bypassed" in hitting.......That's all. :thumbsup:

--------------------------------------------------------------

Now to the rest of the posts after I left yesterday.

RayL (I think) said adjustments are made ONLY AFTER the shouders are rotating.

I agree with that.

Stealth (I believe) said that "setting the hands" the same way everytime is NOT optimal.

I COMPLETELY DISAGREE. I believe that video of hitters would show that regardless of the contact point, the hands ALWAYS LOAD to the same position for that hitter. Then they connect. Then they release at different adjustment locations for the incoming pitch.

IMO, "handle torque for adjustment and path determination is hog-wash.

Adjustment is timed at release from the factors I stated above. This is my opinion. I believe it is what happens in the swing. You cannot "bypass" the shoulder complex when it not only accelerates the bat head to maximum escape velocity, but is critical to the timing of adjustment though release.

Stealth also commented on my teaching methods: "If you look at that slo motion clip I can see you telling kids to do nothing with the hands - look son just get your hands near the rear shoulder and rotate."

Well Stealth, it ain't EVEN that simple now is it. I can guarantee you that isn't what I teach my hitters. All 52 of them who've gone on to play collegiate ball, mostly on scholarships, have never heard any part of that. Having a higher understanding of the swing isn't a "tell" on how people teach dude.

However, that is the "Dogma" of HI now isn't it. That's YOUR problem NOT mine Stealth. Like I said, I have no room on my plate for Dogma.

Go back to Guyana and the "Peoples Temple" and continue discussing my limited knowledge of hitting with Jimmy. After all, It just continues to show doesn't it? :bowdown:

Lord knows I've given you plenty more to talk about! All 5 of you.........:rofl::grouchy:rant:


I've been waiting for you to follow up on the following ....


<<<
By the way, as god is my witness, I did swing a bat today. Infact I swung one at work, duplicating the path we're speaking of from both your and enc. posts. In fact, my employee were asking "what the hell are you doing?" And I told them YOU said I couldn't make the barrel do what it does without HAND TORQUE.

And I didn't have any problem doing it. I'll let you know how later. But first we have to wade through the BS.
>>>

[FiveFrameSwing]

I just went back to read all the posts I missed. Wow, lots of thoughts being passed. You still here? If so, I'll get into how/where I believe adjustments are made..........I'll post this and continue to edit..........

I'm interested.

Unfortunately I need to turn in early.

I'd greatly enjoy reading your comments on this topic in the morning though.

[Ursa Major]

Originally Posted by RayR
Who says you cannot extend to make an adjustment?

This pitch is dropping out of the zone fast. Don't you think he saw fastball and then did what he had to do to make contact with this pitch?

Do you really believe that on a ball straight down the middle he is going to approach it the same way? Do you really believe this is Cabrera's optimum swing?
RayR - some people believe tilt is the only way to adjust to pitch location. You are correct - he had to use his hands/arms to adjust.Which gets us back to why good rotational hitting is such a lovely, seamless concept. By tilting to the approximately right angle and by staying connected so that the early significant movement is done with the hips, torso and shoulders -- i.e., the larger muscles -- the smaller hand and forearm muscles are held in reserve to do what they do best: adjust to the height and location of the pitch.

But I don't think you should give up on significant tilt on low pitches (and now, Woggy, you don't need to bend over 90 degrees unless you're on top of the plate to start with). Some of my best hits ever have been on low inside strikes where I just tilted over, dropped my shoulder, and let the bathead almost just fall onto the ball. Just pulling a clip almost at random, here's HiddenGem's homer for the Astros in 2003 on a low inside pitch.

At the moment of contact, he's almost doubled over.

[Slapper23]

Ursa,

Almost doubled over at contact? We are interpreting this clip much differently. I think you greatly exaggerate to say what you did to prove a point. What Gem is doing is nearly identical to what Cabrera did - he begins rotating and make an adjustment to the pitch he sees with his hands and arms. Tilting is a part of this, of course, but adjusting on the fly using the hands and arms are at least as important. The hands and arms become connected to the rotating torso and have the energy/momentum to change the swing path on demand.

Mike

[swingbuilder]

Then they connect.

This is a key statement by BM.


I'll also add here from some of the other post of others that

The tilt DONT lead the hands. The Hands LEAD the tilt:thumbsup:

[wogdoggy]

This is a key statement by BM.


I'll also add here from some of the other post of others that

The tilt DONT lead the hands. The Hands LEAD the tilt:thumbsup:




the hands set the tilt..who could hit or think any other way?

[BoardMember]

This is a key statement by BM.

I'll also add here from some of the other post of others that

The tilt DONT lead the hands. The Hands LEAD the tilt:thumbsup:

Ya well the grill is on the front of the car, but it don't make the car go.........

[swingbuilder]

the hands set the tilt..who could hit or think any other way?


Just those that seem to believe the large muscles engage the smaller ones.

[wogdoggy]

Ya well the grill is on the front of the car, but it don't make the car go.........

yeah but it sure points in the direction of the car,,,any more senseless comparisons?

[wogdoggy]

Just those that seem to believe the large muscles engage the smaller ones.

well then the "tilt" sets my tennis swing, my ping pong return, and my cricket stroke as well?

[Stealth]

BM -
Stealth (I believe) said that "setting the hands" the same way everytime is NOT optimal.

Where did you get that from? I have never said anything close to that statement!

BM -
I believe that video of hitters would show that regardless of the contact point, the hands ALWAYS LOAD to the same position for that hitter. Then they connect. Then they release at different adjustment locations for the incoming pitch.

The hands load - YES! And they cannot load by just holding onto the bat. And if the hands/forearms don't get the barell on plane they will not be able to make those adjustments. Thinking shoulders and or a posture change and leaving out the hands is a huge mistake.

[RayR]

BM -

Where did you get that from? I have never said anything close to that statement!

BM -

The hands load - YES! And they cannot load by just holding onto the bat. And if the hands/forearms don't get the barell on plane they will not be able to make those adjustments. Thinking shoulders and or a posture change and leaving out the hands is a huge mistake.


What are the hands loading? Themselves?

[RayR]

Just those that seem to believe the large muscles engage the smaller ones.

Now, you're just talking nonsense. Large muscles engage the smaller ones...

[RayR]

well then the "tilt" sets my tennis swing, my ping pong return, and my cricket stroke as well?

Now, you're getting it...

[BoardMember]

Stealth (I believe) said that "setting the hands" the same way everytime is NOT optimal.

BM -

Where did you get that from? I have never said anything close to that statement!

I don't know how much closer you can get.......


I believe you cannot pre-set your hands


BM -

The hands load - YES! And they cannot load by just holding onto the bat.

I understand you think there is manupulation of the hands during the load. I don't manupulate mine. And I don't think Cabrera is manipulating his his hands during the load (running start if you will). Or anyone else for that matter.



And if the hands/forearms don't get the barell on plane they will not be able to make those adjustments. Thinking shoulders and or a posture change and leaving out the hands is a huge mistake.

Posture change is a function of late adjustment. Not setting the plane. You convolute the 2. I don't.

I see getting on plane as a completely different functionality then you.

Primarily guided by the upper arms(humerus) and shoulder complex.

I don't see any manipulation or relational change of the hands/forearms getting these guys on plane early in the swing.

[Stealth]

BM - you need to go back and read my posts. I think you are misunderstanding what I am saying about the hands to a certain degree.

What I mean by pre set is that you cannot just get into a position where your hands are in the proper position (near the rear shoulder) and then just swing/rotate to the ball. I see this scenario as "dead hands" hitting. I believe that the hands must be in or near the same spot at launch on all swings - in a perfect world. I believe they must be in motion before that point. If you tip the bat I believe there is manipulation of the hands/forearms necessary to get to the point you see in Bonds and Cabrera. I like the term running start. I know you cannot rely on the shoulders by themselves. If you hit with dead hands you rely on the shoulders which IMHO is no good.

[wogdoggy]

Now, you're getting it...

no ray i'm not getting it,,and neither will you especially low inside or outside,,,take the hands away ruin the athlete

[FiveFrameSwing]

In a nut shell, there are three factors I believe are involved in adjustment to up and down pitches, and NONE of them have to do with hand torque. They are not new and maybe fairly obvious. But, they are proven IMO not only from video, but experience.

1.) Obviously Posture. There is NO DOUBT in my mind that torso tilt increases on the low pitch and decreases on the up pitch.

2.) The lead arm. But more precisely, the lead elbow. However, it's the altitude not the attitude of the lead elbow as the hands release from the shoulder complex.

3.) Timing of release of the hands from the shoulder complex. Which is timed/coupled with # 2 above.

There's no doubt that the front elbow needs to be working in an Attitude/Position that will eventually lead it upwards to some extent in the swing.


BM, Donny used to consider "separation" (as in the separation created between the hips and shoulders) as instrumental in terms of adjustability. Do you agree?

[FiveFrameSwing]

Five, if you've followed my posts regarding the box, I've always said the maintainence IMO, is only until the hands release from the shoulder complex.

I said there ARE examples of maintainence into contact, and you can see why when using my theory of adjustment stated above. The closer the ball is to the sternum, the longer the box will be maintained IMO.



Thank you BM. This is helpful.

In the following video clip please observe that Ortiz is maintaining the angle in his lead arm from launch until just prior to contact ... and yes, he shows here that he is increasing that angle just prior to contact. In other words he is "maintaining the box", or what I prefer to call "maintaining lead arm extension", but making the adjustment that you speak of.

[BoardMember]

It stands to reason that if the hips are moving ahead of the shoulder complex early on, this separation (time delay) would allow for plane adjustment at the shoulder complex into launch.........

I don't think is affects what the hands do in terms of adjustment. IE, even if you turn as a unit, without separation, the hands will do what they do from release foward in either case........


BM, Donny used to consider "separation" (as in the separation created between the hips and shoulders) as instrumental in terms of adjustability. Do you agree?

[Slapper23]

It stands to reason that if the hips are moving ahead of the shoulder complex early on, this separation (time delay) would allow for plane adjustment at the shoulder complex into launch.........

Uh, Coach, that plane adjustment at the "shoulder complex" would be lateral tilting. Ortiz demonstrates this superbly.


I don't think is affects what the hands do in terms of adjustment. IE, even if you turn as a unit, without separation, the hands will do what they do from release foward in either case........


The hands will do what they do based on what the hitter wants them to do. :thumbsup:

Mike

[jima]

This could be a good discussion, but it has degenerated into "gotcha" by setting up strawmen and then trying to draw the other into the trap...what is there to gain using this approach? Slapper; Swingbuilder; MBS and others seem to believe the hands are the predominant force in hitting the baseball...they don't discount totally, separation and rotation but it sure seems to take a back seat in the discussion. BM believes in shoulder rotation; separation and rotation (clearly not in that order), but I need further explanation from him re: the role of the hands in the swing. Ray, doesn't seem to think that the hands do anything much...he's kind of load the body, then turn or unload the body with timing. I expect to get corrections from each of you. Anyway, that's what I'm getting from the whole discussion on shoulder rotation. The real issue to me is what is the role of the hands in the baseball swing? Yes, I generally find myself agreeing with Booth or BM in these debates, but I haven't heard either talk about the hands (of course, why should you when the thread is about shoulder rotation).

[JeffK 29]

You laid it out pretty good jima...we're on the same page. That's why I started the arms/hands thread. Seems to be a logical progression and I'm really curious.

Jeff



This could be a good discussion, but it has degenerated into "gotcha" by setting up strawmen and then trying to draw the other into the trap...what is there to gain using this approach? Slapper; Swingbuilder; MBS and others seem to believe the hands are the predominant force in hitting the baseball...they don't discount totally, separation and rotation but it sure seems to take a back seat in the discussion. BM believes in shoulder rotation; separation and rotation (clearly not in that order), but I need further explanation from him re: the role of the hands in the swing. Ray, doesn't seem to think that the hands do anything much...he's kind of load the body, then turn or unload the body with timing. I expect to get corrections from each of you. Anyway, that's what I'm getting from the whole discussion on shoulder rotation. The real issue to me is what is the role of the hands in the baseball swing? Yes, I generally find myself agreeing with Booth or BM in these debates, but I haven't heard either talk about the hands (of course, why should you when the thread is about shoulder rotation).

[jima]

You laid it out pretty good jima...we're on the same page. That's why I started the arms/hands thread. Seems to be a logical progression and I'm really curious.

Jeff

You're right JeffK...I read the new thread after I posted this....the other question I have is: once you have described the role of arms; hands; hips; shoulders; etc. How do you teach it? Some of the discussions surrounding what the hands are doing would be impossible to teach...they are reactions to what the eye sees.....I think.

[Slapper23]

Slapper; Swingbuilder; MBS and others seem to believe the hands are the predominant force in hitting the baseball

Here is your first correction, Jima...you are wrong on the above. Nowhere have I said what you wrote. I don't believe it or profess it, but I do talk about the importance of the hands in the swing...big difference from the conclusion you arrived at.

Mike

[jima]

Here is your first correction, Jima...you are wrong on the above. Nowhere have I said what you wrote. I don't believe it or profess it, but I do talk about the importance of the hands in the swing...big difference from the conclusion you arrived at.

Mike

Slapper, I was just trying to make a general characterization of your position...not a direct quote. What do the hands do and when do they do it? What are their relationship to body rotation; weight shift? what part(s) of the body adjusts to hit the baseball? Your answers will help me understand your concept of a high level baseball swing....I will not come back and try to poke holes in what you say...not smart or knowledgeable enuf. jima

[swingbuilder]

Jima, predominate force is a stretch.

I believe there are two important things to consider in the swing. One is the hands and the other is the hips. I believe those two things more than anything else are what drives the swing. I believe that if you focus on those two extremes in the swing that you can indeed arrive at an elite swing. One that is loose and tension free and one that is able to adjust to pitches in lots of locations. I believe the hands have to be active and I believe the hands along with the hips get the barrel to contact as optimum as possible. To focus on the shoulders or the feet, for me, is a waste of time because neither can get the barrel to contact as good as the hands and hips. I believe that by using the hands and hips properly that you do arrive at a kineticly linked swing that is effortless and can do so much quicker than trying to train each segment of the chain from bottom to top. I believe that by training/ teaching/ coaching the hands and the hips that you will become a driver of the baseball. I do not believe that the shoulders are an assist and that the early active hands lead the shoulders to do what they do. I do not believe that pre setting the hands and just turning the body will get the barrel to contact as effiently but I have said that I see no problem with it as a beginner technique for young kids and young hitters. Hitting has to be about "feel" and if you feel with the shoulders then you will have a tough time being a good hitter.

The reason you see 5'10 and 5'11 hitters hitting HR's is because of their ability to use the hands and hips and to not have them pre set to the shoulders and connection. Not every Dad on this and other sites has a son 6'4 or bigger and is 230 pounds or more of pure muscle. You can choose to muscle and have effort to your swing, which is ok if your a big hulk or you can choose to have an effortles one by way of the hands and hips.

[jima]

Jima, predominate force is a stretch.

I believe there are two important things to consider in the swing. One is the hands and the other is the hips. I believe those two things more than anything else are what drives the swing. I believe that if you focus on those two extremes in the swing that you can indeed arrive at an elite swing. One that is loose and tension free and one that is able to adjust to pitches in lots of locations. I believe the hands have to be active and I believe the hands along with the hips get the barrel to contact as optimum as possible. To focus on the shoulders or the feet, for me, is a waste of time because neither can get the barrel to contact as good as the hands and hips. I believe that by using the hands and hips properly that you do arrive at a kineticly linked swing that is effortless and can do so much quicker than trying to train each segment of the chain from bottom to top. I believe that by training/ teaching/ coaching the hands and the hips that you will become a driver of the baseball. I do not believe that the shoulders are an assist and that the early active hands lead the shoulders to do what they do. I do not believe that pre setting the hands and just turning the body will get the barrel to contact as effiently but I have said that I see no problem with it as a beginner technique for young kids and young hitters. Hitting has to be about "feel" and if you feel with the shoulders then you will have a tough time being a good hitter.

The reason you see 5'10 and 5'11 hitters hitting HR's is because of their ability to use the hands and hips and to not have them pre set to the shoulders and connection. Not every Dad on this and other sites has a son 6'4 or bigger and is 230 pounds or more of pure muscle. You can choose to muscle and have effort to your swing, which is ok if your a big hulk or you can choose to have an effortles one by way of the hands and hips.

Thanks for taking the time to explain you position...may have some questions later. You may remember that I posted my 14yo's swing, via, JBooth. I talked his coach about tip and rip but he thought that it was too advanced a move to try to teach my son now. He believes that he has some ground-up or footwork isues that need to be resolved first

[RayR]

Ray, doesn't seem to think that the hands do anything much...he's kind of load the body, then turn or unload the body with timing.


I think there are two ways to move the bat. One is to use the larger muscles and parts to initiate movement and the other is to use smaller muscles and parts.

I prefer to use the larger muscles and parts to create movement from a set up that will optimize these movements.

One thing I just read was that ML players always talk about the hands because they do the other parts really well without thinking about it. That makes a lot of sense to me.

The hands will take of themselves. Unless you are swinging blind folded.

[Slapper23]

Jima, no problem. I just wanted to clear up a notion that I think the hands are the predominant "force." They obviously are not, but they are huge in synchronizing the movements of the body, IMO. I just believe the brain organizes body movement in hitting based upon the ultimate goal of getting the hands in the right position and at the right time to square up the bat with the ball. I believe this is directly linked to arm and hand action. To me, the arm/hand action involved in loading sets up the timing and sequencing of the swing. In this regard, I believe the body is slaved to the hands...or as Tom Guerry has long said, "arm action is King in hitting, too."

Mike

[RayR]

The reason you see 5'10 and 5'11 hitters hitting HR's is because of their ability to use the hands and hips and to not have them pre set to the shoulders and connection. Not every Dad on this and other sites has a son 6'4 or bigger and is 230 pounds or more of pure muscle. You can choose to muscle and have effort to your swing, which is ok if your a big hulk or you can choose to have an effortles one by way of the hands and hips.

Who is saying muscle the swing?

[swingbuilder]

Ray, did you read me say anyone SAID.

However, I do not believe the large (slower) muscles can lead the smaller (faster) muscles in the swing. I have often refrenced it as I like the muscles on the front of the body to swing the bat and not the muscles on the back of the body.

[jima]

There has got to be some medical studies on how the eyes transmit info to the body; and, how the body reacts. To me it doesn't make much difference whether the big muscles move the hands or vice versa....the big question is how do you put the student in the very best position to let it happen?

[BoardMember]

Jima, I found your observations very clear.

This is a "shoulder rotation" thread.

This is what I've addressed here. Mainly, what I see as the shoulder complex function in the swing. I think this is what Jeff was asking when he said "shoulder rotation". I don't believe he was asking about rotation of the "shoulder joints" separately, but the complex as a whole, and what role if any, it plays.

I have explained the form, and functionality of the shoulder complex as I see it in this thread.

I've described exactly how important they are to the process, and how bypassing them is bypassing a huge force generator in the swing.

The group have decribed nothing except to say "they tilt, and/or then rotate".

This in itself shows they either don't have much knowledge of the function, or completely disregard the function as anything but a connection point to the hands. I believe it's a little of both.

You're observations of the others here are correct as well IMO. The others you've mentioned (save JBooth) have said in their posts (in no particular order and by group):

The shoulders tilt, then rotate.
The shoulders tilt, then rotate after contact. :confused:
The shoulders rotate but don't add anyting but a connection from the hips to the hands.
The hands tell the shoulders to rotate.
The hands are incharge of he shoulders.
The hand torque the handle causing the shoulders to tilt and rotate.
The hands are torquing the handle before, during and after rotation starts.
etc. etc. etc. etc.............

It's seems all about Tilt and Torque. Epstein to a flaw........

When discussing tilt, I posted numerous clips of the running start, and the load and launch phase, cleary void of any "tilt" that isn't shoulder complex rotation. That's the way I see it.

I even claimed ignorance of the tilt, to try to get them to SHOW IT TO ME.

They couldn't or didn't. Simple as that. Apparently, Epstein says tilt into rotation. I say SHOW ME with verifiable information that I can see, thats all. In a live swing, NOT a drill.

No verifiable response from "the group".

No one ever asked me about the hands. When they do, I'm sure we'll have plenty to talk about.......:applaud:

I know Swing likes the stretch. Ask him to explain it's function AND it's benifit..............


This could be a good discussion, but it has degenerated into "gotcha" by setting up strawmen and then trying to draw the other into the trap...what is there to gain using this approach? Slapper; Swingbuilder; MBS and others seem to believe the hands are the predominant force in hitting the baseball...they don't discount totally, separation and rotation but it sure seems to take a back seat in the discussion. BM believes in shoulder rotation; separation and rotation (clearly not in that order), but I need further explanation from him re: the role of the hands in the swing. Ray, doesn't seem to think that the hands do anything much...he's kind of load the body, then turn or unload the body with timing. I expect to get corrections from each of you. Anyway, that's what I'm getting from the whole discussion on shoulder rotation. The real issue to me is what is the role of the hands in the baseball swing? Yes, I generally find myself agreeing with Booth or BM in these debates, but I haven't heard either talk about the hands (of course, why should you when the thread is about shoulder rotation).

[RayR]

Ray, did you read me say anyone SAID.




Sorry, but when you write this:

"You can choose to muscle and have effort to your swing, which is ok if your a big hulk or you can choose to have an effortles one by way of the hands and hips."

Are not infering that anyone opposed to what you support is trying to muscle the swing?

[RayR]

However, I do not believe the large (slower) muscles can lead the smaller (faster) muscles in the swing. I have often refrenced it as I like the muscles on the front of the body to swing the bat and not the muscles on the back of the body.

Can you please name off the large (slower) muscles and the smaller (faster) muscles? I would like to do more research on this.

[swingbuilder]

Ray, you infered, I did not do any infering. My point is that the avg size guy isnt getting it done with his big muscles as the lead.

Sure I believe in the stretch that is created by the hips turn and the shoulders not turning. Its function and its benefit is all over the internet. Its not a one piece turn unless you believe the shoulders have force in swinging a bat.


I've read the shoulders rotate at launch and that nothing moves without the shoulders moving it. Then you start shoulder rotation and then adjust them. Its like saying you can start shoulder rotation at say a high pitch and then change their direction to the low pitch or vice versa.

[RayR]

Ray, you infered, I did not do any infering. My point is that the avg size guy isnt getting it done with his big muscles as the lead.

Sure I believe in the stretch that is created by the hips turn and the shoulders not turning. Its function and its benefit is all over the internet. Its not a one piece turn unless you believe the shoulders have force in swinging a bat.


I've read the shoulders rotate at launch and that nothing moves without the shoulders moving it. Then you start shoulder rotation and then adjust them. Its like saying you can start shoulder rotation at say a high pitch and then change their direction to the low pitch or vice versa.

Technically, we both infered.

Anyway, you seem to always support your position by knocking a one piece, muscled up turn. That's fine. But, I would like to know who is supporting this muscled up approach?

[FiveFrameSwing]

By the way, as god is my witness, I did swing a bat today. Infact I swung one at work, duplicating the path we're speaking of from both your and enc. posts. In fact, my employee were asking "what the hell are you doing?" And I told them YOU said I couldn't make the barrel do what it does without HAND TORQUE.

And I didn't have any problem doing it. I'll let you know how later. But first we have to wade through the BS.


BM, I found this video clip and wonder if this is what you had in mind?

[JeffK 29]

Jima, I found your observations very clear.

This is a "shoulder rotation" thread.

This is what I've addressed here. Mainly, what I see as the shoulder complex function in the swing. I think this is what Jeff was asking when he said "shoulder rotation". I don't believe he was asking about rotation of the "shoulder joints" separately, but the complex as a whole, and what role if any, it plays.

............

BM and everyone who posted in this discussion:

This went way above and beyond what I expected. I am much smarter on this stuff now. I was not even thinking about hands/arms. Your discussions led me to more questions. Your inputs and discussions are giving all of us out here the knowledge to ask more questions.

Many, many thanks to all!

Jeff

[BoardMember]

5, I see you found the "handle torque" thread eh? That was a fun one.

And FYI, if you didn't know, I annotated that cliip of Bonds.......

If you did, you can see my stance regarding the load phase has remained consistant. No purposefull torquing or movements causing torquing.

If you read this post, you'll understand my stance regarding the load, launch, lag, and contact phases of the swing.

http://www.baseball-fever.com/showpost.php?p=974912&postcount=222




BM, I found this video clip and wonder if this is what you had in mind?