Arm Bar

[Chris O'Leary]

I'm going to make a heretical statement...

What's so bad about arm bar?

I ask because if you asked an engineer to look at the photo below...

http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Hitting/Images/Example_TheTriangle_PeteRose_Overhead_RH_Annotated _001_01.jpg

...and asked him what the strongest shape would be for line segment R-H, he would say a straight line. If you put a bend in line segment R-H, the rotational force of the shoulders rotating will tend to pull the slack out of the line segment, and that process of pulling out of the slack would tend to lengthen the swing.

Is the problem when you start out with a bent front elbow and then straighten out/extend that elbow as the swing starts?

I could see that lengthening the swing.

Is it that you need to maintain (or decrease) the angle of the front elbow as you swing?

[Lady_Knights]

I'm going to make a heretical statement...

What's so bad about arm bar?

I ask because if you asked an engineer to look at the photo below...

http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Hitting/Images/Example_TheTriangle_PeteRose_Overhead_RH_Annotated _001_01.jpg

...and asked him what the strongest shape would be for line segment R-H, he would say a straight line. If you put a bend in line segment R-H, the rotational force of the shoulders rotating will tend to pull the slack out of the line segment, and that process of pulling out of the slack would tend to lengthen the swing.

Is the problem when you start out with a bent front elbow and then straighten out/extend that elbow as the swing starts?

I could see that lengthening the swing.

Is it that you need to maintain (or decrease) the angle of the front elbow as you swing?


How would you ever get a bend in the line from R-H, your plotting 2 points, and connecting them?

[BoardMember]

Is the problem when you start out with a bent front elbow and then straighten out/extend that elbow as the swing starts?

IMO yes Chris. As I said to SwingBuilder about his "good arm bar", I've always understood arm bar as a flaw that exists during the swing. Creating lead arm extension is NOT considered Arm Bar.

If lead arm extension is allowed to drift too far back, young hitters can become trapped and/or barred in many cases during the swing. Barring can assist in creating drag as well, as the rear elbow passes the "locked out" lead arm.

What comes to mind instantly for me due to this Barred condition are the following:

1.) a wider slower sweeping swing that is dead on the inside UNLESS you love to hit the outside of the ball WAY FOUL on the inside pitch, or fly the front shoulder from the get go. I think we are all in agreement that "bat speed" is the number one power generator.

2.) Inadequate Adjustability. Why? IMO it's easier to allow centrifigal force to assist adjustment then resist adjustment.

A few more things come to mind but these are the most obvious IMO.

This is why I like the box better then the triangle analogy.........

I'm going to make a heretical statement...

What's so bad about arm bar?

I ask because if you asked an engineer to look at the photo below...

http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Hitting/Images/Example_TheTriangle_PeteRose_Overhead_RH_Annotated _001_01.jpg

...and asked him what the strongest shape would be for line segment R-H, he would say a straight line. If you put a bend in line segment R-H, the rotational force of the shoulders rotating will tend to pull the slack out of the line segment, and that process of pulling out of the slack would tend to lengthen the swing.

Is the problem when you start out with a bent front elbow and then straighten out/extend that elbow as the swing starts?

I could see that lengthening the swing.

Is it that you need to maintain (or decrease) the angle of the front elbow as you swing?

[Go Cardinals]

IMO yes Chris. As I said to SwingBuilder about his "good arm bar", I've always understood arm bar as a flaw that exists during the swing. Creating lead arm extension is NOT considered Arm Bar.

If lead arm extension is allowed to drift too far back, young hitters can become trapped and/or barred in many cases during the swing. Barring can assist in creating drag as well, as the rear elbow passes the "locked out" lead arm.

What comes to mind instantly for me due to this Barred condition are the following:

1.) a wider slower sweeping swing that is dead on the inside UNLESS you love to hit the outside of the ball WAY FOUL on the inside pitch, or fly the front shoulder from the get go. I think we are all in agreement that "bat speed" is the number one power generator.

2.) Inadequate Adjustability. Why? IMO it's easier to allow centrifigal force to assist adjustment then resist adjustment.

A few more things come to mind but these are the most obvious IMO.

This is why I like the box better then the triangle analogy.........

I was at a camp at where the hitting coach wants you to...

Start out w/ your hands at the femur. Then, he wants you to push your hands as far back as possible w/ the knob of the bat facing the pitcher. I repeat, he wants you to move your hands up and out as far as possible. Then he wants you to swing. This one guy and I were the only kids at the camp who knew how to swing right. The rest were hands down, pivot, dead hands, dead legs, etc. This other guy was all conference batting over .500. His team won state for oregon. He was a contact hitter.

What I found amazing about the camp is that they tried to totally redo both of our swings. In BP I hit a couple 300 ft shots (60 mph, 40 degrees, sponge balls). He hits for average.

They wanted us to do all of this weird stuff... anyway, if you look at the film (which we did) after the head coach "helped" us... before 10% of the kids had arm bar issues. After 95% of the kids had arm bar issues. It was a mess. This guy also thinks that you should teach linear mechanics (and the same thing) to each kid. I pointed out that the pros don't do this... there response was that "the pros are special. They have innate abilty that cannot be taught!" I caught them by surprise when I asked, "So you are teaching short-cuts to us? None of us have any abilty at all? You've never seen any of us before, you've never seen us in games, and you don't know how we did, and yet you want to re-teach us everything?"

It was a joke and a waste of money. The would guy innacuratley quote the science of hitting and physics laws. He'd also quote physics laws that have nothing to do w/ anything.

[Deemax]

Is this an arm bar?
http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t33/deemax32/Gehrig.jpg

[Drill]

Is this an arm bar?
http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t33/deemax32/Gehrig.jpg

where his hips in relationship to his hands i would say he looks a little laggy to me. nice to know where ball is too


drill

[Erik]

Is this an arm bar?
http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t33/deemax32/Gehrig.jpg

Deemax,

this wouldn't be an arm bar IMO. IMO the lead arm would have to be out away from the body extended and locked. IMO as long as the front arm has some bend in it can allow for the tricep to get involved in the swing. Once the arm is bared or locked the front tricep is disabled.



EL,

[Deemax]

Wait a sec... Is this also an arm bar?
http://cache3.gettyimages.com/xc/53144568.jpg?v=1&c=NewsMaker&k=2&d=17A4AD9FDB9CF1939847EC77F5F8D1CE8221BC106A409883 4E9C89C783688B46

[BoardMember]

Nope, not even close..........

Wait a sec... Is this also an arm bar?
http://cache3.gettyimages.com/xc/53144568.jpg?v=1&c=NewsMaker&k=2&d=17A4AD9FDB9CF1939847EC77F5F8D1CE8221BC106A409883 4E9C89C783688B46http://i3.tinypic.com/6s7bn7b.jpg

[Deemax]

Bretts lead arm is barred IMO.

BM, thats the fakest bent green line ever... Since when is the arm capable of bending in the middle of the tricep, and your line starts at the top of his shoulder to exaggerate your angle? You could easily draw a straight line or a 45 degree one. You post some great stuff on hitting, but dont distort what is there. IMO the lead arm bar's more on away pitches then inside pitches. I have the same great hitters at contact doing both (barring and bent).

Is this an arm bar then?

http://cache4.gettyimages.com/xc/52990695.jpg?v=1&c=NewsMaker&k=2&d=17A4AD9FDB9CF1939847EC77F5F8D1CE073053B246BD7EB8 4E9C89C783688B46

Heres Brett with a straight line, and a 45 degree one....In the end you will see what you want to see.
http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t33/deemax32/brettstraight.jpg
http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t33/deemax32/brettbent.jpg

[paul5150]

I agree with deemax, to me that is an arm bar, and i do not agree in that green line that boardmember put on. I dont believe that an arm bar is always bad.

[4for4]

I think the difficulty here is drawing these lines on a two dimensional view. It would be ideal if this shot were overhead from behind home plate. But it looks to me that BM drew the lines from the shoulder down the side of the arm (tricep) to elbow and from the knob up the side of the arm to the elbow. I don't think he drew it that way just to create the illusion that the angles exists. It seems to adequately illustrate his point.

I don't think the lines you drew really add much to the discussion.

I guess anyone can go out and find some picture/video to illustrate their point meaning that of the totality of an elite player's swings, we may well find something that doesn't jive with conventional wisdom. And then we have the task of defining conventional wisdom.

In the end, I think BM's recent points are good ones in the context of teaching youth players.

Bretts lead arm is barred IMO.

BM, thats the fakest bent green line ever... Since when is the arm capable of bending in the middle of the tricep, and your line starts at the top of his shoulder to exaggerate your angle? You could easily draw a straight line or a 45 degree one. You post some great stuff on hitting, but dont distort what is there. IMO the lead arm bar's more on away pitches then inside pitches. I have the same great hitters at contact doing both (barring and bent).

Is this an arm bar then?

http://cache4.gettyimages.com/xc/52990695.jpg?v=1&c=NewsMaker&k=2&d=17A4AD9FDB9CF1939847EC77F5F8D1CE073053B246BD7EB8 4E9C89C783688B46

Heres Brett with a straight line, and a 45 degree one....In the end you will see what you want to see.
http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t33/deemax32/brettstraight.jpg
http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t33/deemax32/brettbent.jpg

[Deemax]

44I guess anyone can go out and find some picture/video to illustrate their point meaning that of the totality of an elite player's swings, we may well find something that doesn't jive with conventional wisdom. And then we have the task of defining conventional wisdom.


Yep.

44 don't think the lines you drew really add much to the discussion.

I dont agree with what your thinking. My point is valid and intentional.

In the end, I think BM's recent points are good ones in the context of teaching youth players.


BM makes many good points about hitting.

[CoachB25]

Again, and relative to this conversation, (and "evidence" missing) is the location of the pitch. Other missing "evidence" would be type of pitch and whether Brett was even "fooled" by the pitch. Simply posting one picture of any player and then projecting a swing pattern constitutes an invalid argument. I'm not suggesting that anyone here is trying to do such just stating a case I suggested earlier in another thread that conclusion based upon one picture of one player in one at bat can be misleading. Oh, I'd bet we can find an "arm bar" in a picture format of every MLB player.

[Deemax]

Simply posting one picture of any player and then projecting a swing pattern constitutes an invalid argument.

What about 100's of pictures/video? I can honestly post pics/vids of great hitters barring thier arm, and the same hitters having them bent all day long.

Again, and relative to this conversation, (and "evidence" missing) is the location of the pitch.

I mentioned location as a reason for some appearing barred and bent.

Oh, I'd bet we can find an "arm bar" in a picture format of every MLB player.

Whats wrong with an arm bar? Are the pics wrong? Does anyone have evidence of it being bad? I want to learn more about it, but the evidence leads me elsewhere.

IMO an arm bar is not detrimental, and dependent upong location. Im not sure what the people who have copyrighted swing material think in regards to the arm bar, but I have heard its slower and weaker.... I think thats wrong. The shortest line is not necessarily the fastest or strongest path. Same reasons I disagree with Doc Marshall's delivery...

[FiveFrameSwing]

Whats wrong with an arm bar?


Donny was keen to differentiate between "lead arm extension" and "lead arm barring".


As Donny stated it

"Bar arm is early lead arm extension. The early extension of the lead arm creates a long swing radius with no torque in the midsection and a slow powerless swing. Lead arm extension should occur during the stride by hip/shoulder spatial separation. The rear elbow moving “up and in” as the hips open should extend the arm naturally."

Donney also wrote that "'Bar arming' is when a player extends the lead arm fully and THEN shifts the weight."

My understanding is that Donny, much like Yeager, wanted to see "lead arm extension" take place during the positive weight shift forward. Someone here wrote the cue "walk away from the hands" and I've found that this cue can work for some of my students in terms of when they achieve lead arm extension.

[Deemax]

The early extension of the lead arm creates a long swing radius with no torque in the midsection and a slow powerless swing.

I agree that it creates a long swing radius, but I totally disagree with a long radius being less powerful. Just because the radius is wider dosent mean there is less torque either.

Someone here wrote the cue "walk away from the hands" and I've found that this cue can work for some of my students in terms of when they achieve lead arm extension.

I also like this cue. I believe its the exact same cue Rogers Hornsby told Ted Williams in the The Science of Hitting...i think.

[4for4]

I don't think the lines you drew really add much to the discussion.

I dont agree with what your thinking. My point is valid and intentional.



I don't doubt your intent, but I disagree that your point is valid. I think your green lines are the fakest green lines, and that seems to be your point but they are so far from reality that it makes it pointless, IMO. On the other hand, BM's seem to be more representitive of reality with the contraints of two dimensions in mind....on this one picture.

[Deemax]

444

I stand by what I said. I feel BM drew a fake line... I drew two lines to show the dramatic difference that can be created with different intents. BM said "not even close" in relation to the arm being barred... thats not the truth in the least, its real close. My straight line is more representative then BM's bent one IMO....even though its not perfect either.

Why is an effort placed on preventing someone from reaching a near barred to barred lead arm?

IMO the lead arm is barred in Bretts pic.

[BoardMember]

Deemax, I understand your views.

Consider this. My lines are ALWAYS attempted at the insertion points of the limbs. In this case the insertion point of the Femur at the shoulder and the Ulna and Radius at the elbow. This arm is definately NOT barred.

http://i16.tinypic.com/82kyqg7.jpg

This arm definately appears barred IMO:

http://i1.tinypic.com/6pixag9.jpg

I agree that it creates a long swing radius, but I totally disagree with a long radius being less powerful. Just because the radius is wider dosent mean there is less torque either.

I would consider the following. IF Clark, or any other MLB hitter achieves an arm bar during the swing, it is a result of some other condition, IE fooled, Outside Pitch Extension Etc.

MY entire participation in this discussion involves YOUTH HITTERS who create arm bar from BAD mechanics.

You now offer a question like: "What's wrong with Will or Brett barring his arm".

This line of thinking is something I find useless here for obvious reasons. I'm sorry.

In my mind, this discussion is REGARDING arm bar created by mechanical flaws and why I think we shouldn't allow it in our youth. Lead arm extension yes. Arm Bar, NO IMO.........

What comes to mind instantly for me due to this Barred condition are the following:

1.) a wider slower sweeping swing that is dead on the inside UNLESS you love to hit the outside of the ball WAY FOUL on the inside pitch, or fly the front shoulder from the get go. I think we are all in agreement that "bat speed" is the number one power generator.

2.) Inadequate Adjustability. Why? IMO it's easier to allow centrifigal force to assist adjustment then resist adjustment.

If you want to discuss why MILLION DOLLAR players achieve arm bar in certain situations, I will gracefully BOW OUT OF THIS DISCUSSION.

Best Regards........

[4for4]

Deemax, I respect your position. I don't think he drew a fake line and perhaps I'm reading more into this than I should. I do believe his lines and his description are on target. And I think his heart burn with arm bar is the same as mine in the context of teaching young players. I think varying amounts of flexion are acknowledged to be there, and a locked out postion occasionally on MLB'rs in certain situations. That's a bit different than the many young players that are reaching the locked out position.

[Deemax]

Consider this. My lines are ALWAYS attempted at the insertion points of the limbs.

His arm is considerably straighter then your line.

You now offer a question like: "What's wrong with Will Brett barring his arm". This line of thinking is something I find useless here for obvious reasons. I'm sorry

I am going to ask the questions that I want wether you feel they are useless or not. Sorry that your not more open minded. I find this mind set useless here for obvious reasons. Im sorry as well.

MY entire participation in this discussion involves YOUTH HITTERS who create arm bar from BAD mechanics.

I didnt realize this thread catered to only the youth you were refering to. I was under the impression Chris started it in regards to a Pete Rose clip.

Instead of attempting to patronize me, teach me what the bad mechanics are that create arm bar in youth hitters... That I am interested in. Honestly.

Im never to proud to learn.

[Deemax]

444
That's a bit different than the many young players that are reaching the locked out position.


I totally agree. A big part of barring being over done in the youth swing revolves around strength IMO. Kids feel stronger in this postion for what ever reason. IMO, the worst is when the bar gets pushed out over the plate before they fire..I see this often in 10 and unders.

Super slow pitching may also be a culprit.

FYI, Im not running around trying clone arm barring... But, Im not aggresivley trying to end it either. It has its place.

[swingbuilder]

Good stuff Deemax....its called "Good ARM BAR"

However, I'll bet you Brett and Clark do not push the hands back by extending the lead arm back in the loading process

A "Poor Bar" only happens at the loading phase and if done led by the lead arm in a fashion to push the hands back towards the catcher.

Very Nice comments Deemax.

[BoardMember]

OK, I think I see now. You think the particular angle in my line represents an exact angle. Maybe this will ease the pain. I am NOT trying to draw a conclusion as to the amount of flexion when I draw a line on the lead arm.

I'm showing that there IS flexion, and therefore NOT Barred. I cannot descern ANY amount of flexion in this picture, so I say it LOOKS barred:

http://i1.tinypic.com/6pixag9.jpg

I've told you why I don't like to encourage, and infact discourage arm bar in youth hitters.

Now I'll tell you WHY I think bar occurs.

First, I think it is a Physio-Mechanical flaw in youth hitters, the happens naturally, as often as not. As I've said previously, I believe youth hitters have a natural instinct to stretch the lead arm back to generate power. But I also believe, the brain doesn't know exactly how far to stretch the lead arm AND remain efficient in it's task. Locking the elbow ensures it IS, and REMAINS extended. This is a Physio-mechanical flaw. This IMO, is the "lockout" position I see.

http://i10.tinypic.com/86zf8qu.jpg

Second is a bar that is a result of inefficient mechanical perfomance of the swing as a whole. This is the kid who acheives efficient extension, but as a result of the shoulders turning without proper forearm action the top hand is left at/behind the shoulders far to long creating a bar that is "taped" to the chest throughout the swing. See the kid below:

http://photos.imageevent.com/siggy/hitting/analysis/Jasguerrero1b.gif

Hope this is what you were looking for.

So you see, IMO, MLB hitters who achieve what you see as arm bar is probably not as a result of Physio-Mechanical or inefficient swing flaw.

This is why I say if Clark or Brett are barring the lead arm, IT is most likely NOT on purpose, and shouldn't be encouraged at the youth level.

Best Regards............






His arm is considerably straighter then your line.



I am going to ask the questions that I want wether you feel they are useless or not. Sorry that your not more open minded. I find this mind set useless here for obvious reasons. Im sorry as well.



I didnt realize this thread catered to only the youth you were refering to. I was under the impression Chris started it in regards to a Pete Rose clip.

Instead of attempting to patronize me, teach me what the bad mechanics are that create arm bar in youth hitters... That I am interested in. Honestly.

Im never to proud to learn.

[BoardMember]

....its called "Good ARM BAR"


Bwaaaaa-hahahahahaha......:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

This term still cracks me up.

ARM BAR is, and has always been a term used in the history of hitting instuction, a term for a "swing flaw". Namely, lead arm LOCKOUT, not Lead Arm Extension.

You guys kill me sometimes.

Oh well, I guess I'm just gonna have to "get over it".

My kid came home one day and said: "Hey dad, I got BEAMED with a pitch today".

I said "BEAMED"???????? What the hell is that?

She said "you know, I got hit with a pitch".

I laughed my ass off at that also. :rofl::rofl::rofl:

[BoardMember]

I guess my biggest pet-peave about this whole thing is, IF you're (anyone's) method of teaching YOUNG HITTERS is to have your young students reach THIS postion in the swing, THEY ARE IN BIG TROUBLE:

http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t33/deemax32/Gehrig.jpg

This is why I just don't get these pictures as a "template" for teaching hitting.

When you've devolped an efficient, quick, adjustable swing WITH REASONALBE but CONTROLABLE lead arm extension, at a young age, THIS POSITION is something you may "evolve to" as you mature as a hitter.

CREATING THIS POSITION in a young hitter is putting the cart before the horse IMO...........

It's like standing a 2 year old up and PUSHING THEM from the back and saying: "RUN"! THEY WILL FALL ON THIER FACE.

[Chris O'Leary]

Kids feel stronger in this postion for what ever reason.

Kids feel stronger doing it because arm barring is mechanically more efficient.

It doesn't require any muscular work from the Bicep to maintain the bend in the elbow. Instead, the elbow is extended to its limits and the tendons and ligaments of the elbow carry the load.

As kids get older, the muscles of their arms get stronger and they are able to maintain some bend in the elbow throughout the swing.

[Chris O'Leary]

ARM BAR is, and has always been a term used in the history of hitting instuction, a term for a "swing flaw".

My point is that I don't think arm barring is necessarily always a flaw.

That may be why you see it even in good, high-level swings.

[Chris O'Leary]

I guess my biggest pet-peave about this whole thing is, IF you're (anyone's) method of teaching YOUNG HITTERS is to have your young students reach THIS postion in the swing, THEY ARE IN BIG TROUBLE:

http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t33/deemax32/Gehrig.jpg

But some kids may not be able to do anything but swing this way.

I agree that you shouldn't necessarily teach arm barring.

However, I'm not convinced that it should universally be regarded as a flaw, both because it isn't always bad and because in some cases the hitter can't not bar the arm.

[dannyboy]

BoardMember,

could you please put lines on this kid demonstrating if he is maintaining the changing box or not?

could you also (in another series of stills) please put lines on his lead arm demonstrating if he has flexion or is barring?

i'd like to see if i see what you see. thanks.

http://photos.imageevent.com/siggy/hitting/analysis/Jasguerrero1b.gif

[BoardMember]

Ray, here is the best I could do with such low res. Also, his shirt flops around so it's tough to nail anything.

Upon blowing this thing up I see something different then I did before. Arm bar is not as apparant here:

http://i19.tinypic.com/71bwllh.gif

BoardMember,

could you please put lines on this kid demonstrating if he is maintaining the changing box or not?

could you also (in another series of stills) please put lines on his lead arm demonstrating if he has flexion or is barring?

i'd like to see if i see what you see. thanks.

http://photos.imageevent.com/siggy/hitting/analysis/Jasguerrero1b.gif

[Go Cardinals]

Upon blowing this thing up I see something different then I did before. Arm bar is not as apparant here:


It doesn't look like arm bar... like barring the arm, but more like bat drag, right elbow under top arm. Is that what you were thinking?

[jima]

But some kids may not be able to do anything but swing this way.

I agree that you shouldn't necessarily teach arm barring.

However, I'm not convinced that it should universally be regarded as a flaw, both because it isn't always bad and because in some cases the hitter can't not bar the arm.

To restate what BM just posted...arm barring by definition is a flaw. Do you want to change the definition so that there is good barring and bad barring? ...can't do that Chris. What you have to do is come up with a new term for whatever position it is with a straight arm that you think is acceptable. THAT would be OK I guess, but this hitting stuff is confusing enough without you starting to initiate "positive/negatives". :eek:

[Deemax]

jimaarm barring by definition is a flaw.

Whos definition?

Do you want to change the definition so that there is good barring and bad barring?

It depends on who makes the definition and the reasons behind it.

I'll bet golf instructers didnt come up with this definition.

Would Tiger be in a stronger position if his lead arm were bent?
http://dyn.pga.com/improve/tips/rickmartino/images/woods_t1.jpg

[swingbuilder]

Where Gehrig is in the still is not arm barring. Arm barring in the true definition is a flaw when the arm is bared by pushing the hands back towards the catcher with the arms in the loading phase of the swing. A bar in the arm into contact is not considered to be part of the definition or a flaw. You call it lead arm extension I call it good arm bar. I see to many Dad's trying to get their sons and daughters to maintain a box all the way to contact and beyond.

I have no problem with an extended lead arm as long as it doesn't happen in the loading phase.

[FiveFrameSwing]

Ray, here is the best I could do with such low res. Also, his shirt flops around so it's tough to nail anything.

Upon blowing this thing up I see something different then I did before. Arm bar is not as apparant here:

http://i19.tinypic.com/71bwllh.gif

I agree. It is possible to maintain lead arm extension and still suffer from bat drag. Maintaining lead arm extension is not meant as a cure for bat drag.

[FiveFrameSwing]

I'll bet golf instructers didnt come up with this definition.

Would Tiger be in a stronger position if his lead arm were bent?
http://dyn.pga.com/improve/tips/rickmartino/images/woods_t1.jpg

Take a closer look. Tigeer's arm is bent.

[swingbuilder]

I suppose he is connected as well.:rofl:

[jima]

jima

Whos definition?



It depends on who makes the definition and the reasons behind it.

I'll bet golf instructers didnt come up with this definition.

Would Tiger be in a stronger position if his lead arm were bent?
http://dyn.pga.com/improve/tips/rickmartino/images/woods_t1.jpg

Demax, you might be right, of course. Prove it by showing me where any baseball instructor has ever used the phrase "arm bar" in a positive sense. Define bent. Very few if any top pro's lock out or have a straight lead arm at the top of the their swing since it is not a strong position...it is much more likely to straighten near impact. Most have a slight elbow bend. that picture of Tiger doesn't really show anything due to angle.

[jima]

You call it lead arm extension I call it good arm bar.

???? I can hear it now, "Boy kid, your arm barring has never been better".

[BoardMember]

It depends on who makes the definition and the reasons behind it.

I'll bet golf instructers didnt come up with this definition.

Would Tiger be in a stronger position if his lead arm were bent?

Dee, YOU ARE CORRECT. There is NO DOUBT which swing will produce more power.

BUT.........

When we start comparing hitting a stationary golf ball with hitting a 80-90mph baseball that curves, drops, slides, rises and changes speed, EVERY PITCH, we have changed the conversation from Efficiency in hitting a baseball on constantly changing planes, to maximizing leverage in physics on an always consistant plane.

An extended arm will produce a stronger mechanical advantage. A wider radius will produce a slower swing at the inner extended lever (the arm) but faster acceleration of the outer most lever (the bat). It's a matter of "Mechanical Advantage" and "Leverage".

The key to hitting "a baseball" is gaining the biggest mechanical advantage while maintaining the highest adjustability possible in the early phase of the swing.

GOLFERS DO NOT HAVE THIS PROBLEM. Barring the lead arm in Golf IS A MUST to produce the highest mechanical advantage possible BECAUSE THEY DON'T HAVE TO ADJUST.

Move the golf ball 3 inches during Tigers downswing phase and watch him whiff.

This is one of the most uneducated statements I've ever read:
I suppose he is connected as well. :rofl:

Yes he is, but it's WAY beyond your level of understanding.

In the golf swing, the connection IS to the lead shoulder using the mechanical advantage of the lead arm. I've seen your golf swing, so I know you don't understand. :rofl::rofl::rofl:

I will finish with this:

As a hitter progresses, he can increase his mechanical advantage because he has learned to control the other components of the swing.

Teaching this at an early age will put someone at a huge disadvantage for attaining success in hitting the baseball.

You WILL most likely end up with a kid who leads the team in HR's, with a .150 batting average, striking out 9 times out of 10.

If this is the goal, then proceed on the path to allowing ARM BAR in a youth hitter, because he'll definately hit it further, WHEN HE HITS IT. :thumbsup:


jima

Whos definition?



It depends on who makes the definition and the reasons behind it.

I'll bet golf instructers didnt come up with this definition.

Would Tiger be in a stronger position if his lead arm were bent?
http://dyn.pga.com/improve/tips/rickmartino/images/woods_t1.jpg

[swingbuilder]

BM, I was speaking of his connection in terms of swinging a baseball bat. As for my swinging a golf club. That swing was day one on the range after a 9 month layoff. You'd also be right in saying I dont understand the golf swing. I can play and shoot anywhere from 77 to 90. When I putt well I shoot low. I have never taken one lesson. I swung a bat lefthanded and I swing a club righthanded. As for far, I'll stand on the Tee box with anyone and drive it 280-330 yards with a 30 year old fairway driver with 9%. I 'll also hit my irons very straight with about avg accuracy from front to back.

I understand your a pretty good golfer maybe you'd invite me to play and you could help me improve.

I'll add that I dont believe anyone teaches a arm bar to load in the baseball swing.

Jima, an arm bar is only critical while loading.

[jima]

BM, I was speaking of his connection in terms of swinging a baseball bat. As for my swinging a golf club. That swing was day one on the range after a 9 month layoff. You'd also be right in saying I dont understand the golf swing. I can play and shoot anywhere from 77 to 90. When I putt well I shoot low. I have never taken one lesson. I swung a bat lefthanded and I swing a club righthanded. As for far, I'll stand on the Tee box with anyone and drive it 280-330 yards with a 30 year old fairway driver with 9%. I 'll also hit my irons very straight with about avg accuracy from front to back.

I understand your a pretty good golfer maybe you'd invite me to play and you could help me improve.

I'll add that I dont believe anyone teaches a arm bar to load in the baseball swing.

Jima, an arm bar is only critical while loading.

Where's Tom Guerry when we need him? Look, arm barring is bad in baseball and the modern pro swing does not arm bar either. Back in the days of hickory shafts you had to arm bar to help leverage and generate club speed because the shaft did not flex like today and it would flex at a different location with each club. Today, the pros don't need to arm bar...the clubs all have fixed flex points based on players' individual swing angle and club head speed...they relax their arms and hands and keep the elbow loose; then they turn...get the club on plane; turn and crush it...the only time you use your arm is at the bar afterwards (sorry). I play a little.

[swingbuilder]

Sure arm barring is bad in baseball. If it is done to load the hands and it is done with the arms pushing the hands back.


After looking at my latest golf swing. I also get in the same position as Tiger does at that point in my process.

[jima]

[QUOTE=
After looking at my latest golf swing. I also get in the same position as Tiger does at that point in my process.[/QUOTE]

SB - I can't tell whether you are kidding or not, but the people I play with, including myself, would love to get in any of the dynamic positions that Tiger gets in during his swing. What you can't see in the picture is how his hips are still virtually square while his back is to the target....that combined with his posture and balance are tough to mimic. jima

[FiveFrameSwing]

An extended arm will produce a stronger mechanical advantage. A wider radius will produce a slower swing at the inner extended lever (the arm) but faster acceleration of the outer most lever (the bat). It's a matter of "Mechanical Advantage" and "Leverage".

The key to hitting "a baseball" is gaining the biggest mechanical advantage while maintaining the highest adjustability possible in the early phase of the swing.


That was excellent BM!

[Drill]

quote five frame GOLFERS DO NOT HAVE THIS PROBLEM. Barring the lead arm in Golf IS A MUST to produce the highest mechanical advantage possible BECAUSE THEY DON'T HAVE TO ADJUST..

so tee work we want to have a extension when we practice??? Ball is stationary


drill


make sure the rear elbow is in

[jima]

so tee work we want to have a extension when we practice??? Ball is stationary


drill


make sure the rear elbow is in

Don't you think that the whole golf analogy sucks? In the modern golf swing the shaft is the engine similar to a pole and pole vaulter. In golf, discussions revolve around how to store the energy of the shaft and impart or release it at impact. In baseball, a wood bat flexes to some small degree but is clearly not the engine. Most of the debates on this site revolve around what is the engine of the swing and how do you initiate it...a far different discussion.

[swingbuilder]

ok, the shoulders are not an engine!

[Drill]

Don't you think that the whole golf analogy sucks? In the modern golf swing the shaft is the engine similar to a pole and pole vaulter. In golf, discussions revolve around how to store the energy of the shaft and impart or release it at impact. In baseball, a wood bat flexes to some small degree but is clearly not the engine. Most of the debates on this site revolve around what is the engine of the swing and how do you initiate it...a far different discussion.

Yes the golf analogy sucks in your words. It(the golf swing) has a lot of the same mechanics but if I was to lift my front foot during the golf swing the ball would be all over the fair way if not OB. I do see a few consistencies and some times when I see some one swing at a ball in the dirt or should I say on a differant swing plane. I always want to say some golf term.

Yes i want to revert sometimes to golf analogy at times but its hard enough describing a golf swing to double digit handicapper, let alone someone trying to learn to swing a baseball bat.


one constant that is in both swings is the rear elbow. and one swing cue I remember in golf when I started to fade the ball a little. "hit the inside of the golf ball". this helped me cue my swing path at the stationary little white pill (THE ball). This was a cue for me to double check my set up to the ball (not to far away or to close) which also helped out with keeping rear elbow in and helped out in not reaching for the ball(which would cause a bit of out side in swing when reaching, hence the fade), during a golf swing which bring the rear elbow out. baseball we call it an arm bar golf is a fade/ slice which for one thing is a loss of power, not to mention a loss of control along with you would not get proper english on the ball to get the ball to have a nice little draw/ over spin so the ball will roll farther in the fairway. FORE!

THE BALL IS STATIONARY IN GOLF,,, BASEBALL THE BALL MOVES AND TIMING OF THE SWING TO CERTAIN LOCATION IS THE KEY. We discuss on this forum differant ways of timing and how to swing at the ball being pitched at differant speeds and locations.

I was lucky enough to be able to practice and play enough to get into the single digits in golf. But when I try to teach my son the Baseball swing I am not going to take him to my golf pro. (ALTHOUGH I HAVE BEEN TEMPTED ,LOL)


respectfully yours,

drill

[BoardMember]

I'm glad to see you guys agree with how bad the golf analogy is to hitting a baseball.

I'd like to clarify something.

Barring the lead arm in Golf IS A MUST to produce the highest mechanical advantage possible

I meant this to say:

Extending the lead arm in Golf IS A MUST to produce the highest mechanical advantage possible

I hate the word Barring. Especially the phrase "Good Arm Bar". Although the lead arm extension in Golf would be considered Barring in Baseball hitting.

It reminds me of someone saying they had a "Good Car Accident". :rofl::rofl:

[jima]

[QUOTE=
I hate the word Barring. Especially the phrase "Good Arm Bar". Although the lead arm extension in Golf would be considered Barring in Baseball hitting.

It reminds me of someone saying they had a "Good Car Accident". :rofl::rofl:[/QUOTE]

agreed:dance

[Deemax]

Golf is light years ahead of baseball in terms of leverage, swing analysis, mechanics, and teaching. If you hate the golf analogy thats your perogitive. I think much can be learned from it, and I wont dismiss it based on name less internet advisers saying its a "fault by definition". Im not willing to ignore what could be a great learning tool.... Are you?

BMIt reminds me of someone saying they had a "Good Car Accident".

Yeah, its the same thing... :confused:

jimaDon't you think that the whole golf analogy sucks?

No. I think ignoring it is ignorance, and ignorance sucks.

jimaMost of the debates on this site revolve around what is the engine of the swing and how do you initiate it...a far different discussion.

Sorry that I am not discussing your engines. This discussions not far different, and much can be learned from golf mechanics....much....especially how this engine creates its drive.

jimaProve it by showing me where any baseball instructor has ever used the phrase "arm bar" in a positive sense.

Most instructors I meet still want to teach hitters to get the front foot down early, and swing down through the ball. Prove it by showing how arm bar on certain locations and positions is a detriment. Your mind already seems made up...What do you want me to prove to you? Conduct interviews with instructors maybe?

5frameTake a closer look. Tigeer's arm is bent.

No, you take a closer look. Do you want a squared up side view, I got some?


I will say again, Im not out teaching arm bar's to my students (unless its grappling :)).

Im all for learning, and keeping an open mind. Educate me.

-Dale

[BoardMember]

Im all for learning, and keeping an open mind. Educate me.

-Dale

Dale, believe me, I think you ARE trying hard to learn. And you are going the same things I have gone through over 20+ years of teaching.

I am trying to educate you. I have said it over and over and over again, till I'm blue in the face..........I'll repost it here for another "go-over".

You are talking about "adding power to the swing". Don't get me wrong, I understand this. All I'm trying to tell you, and everyone else is, DON'T SACRIFICE ADJUSTABILITY IN YOUNG HITTERS AT THE EXPENSE OF ADDING POWER. If you promote Arm Bar into contact, YOU WILL SACRIFICE a hitters chances at success in HITTING THE BASEBALL. Power can still achieved in young hitters with NON-BARRED, ADJUSTABLE MECHANICS.

IF, WHEN A HITTER MATURES TO THE POINT HE HAS CONTROL OF HIS SWING, YOU DON'T HAVE TO FIX IT.

Re-Post: An extended arm will produce a stronger mechanical advantage. A wider radius will produce a slower swing at the inner extended lever (the arm) but faster acceleration of the outer most lever (the bat). It's a matter of "Mechanical Advantage" and "Leverage".

The key to hitting "a baseball" is gaining the biggest mechanical advantage while maintaining the highest adjustability possible in the early phase of the swing.

GOLFERS DO NOT HAVE THIS PROBLEM. Barring the lead arm in Golf IS A MUST to produce the highest mechanical advantage possible BECAUSE THEY DON'T HAVE TO ADJUST.

Move the golf ball 3 inches during Tigers downswing phase and watch him whiff..............................

As a hitter progresses, he can increase his mechanical advantage because he has learned to control the other components of the swing.

Teaching this at an early age will put someone at a huge disadvantage for attaining success in hitting the baseball.

You WILL most likely end up with a kid who leads the team in HR's, with a .150 batting average, striking out 9 times out of 10.

If this is the goal, then proceed on the path to allowing ARM BAR in a youth hitter, because he'll definately hit it further, WHEN HE HITS IT.

[Deemax]

BMAll I'm trying to tell you, and everyone else is, DON'T SACRIFICE ADJUSTABILITY IN YOUNG HITTERS AT THE EXPENSE OF ADDING POWER.

Does adjustability have to be sacrificed in order to add power?

I would like to hear your definition of "adjustibility", and what are the contributing factors to it.

BMIf you promote Arm Bar into contact, YOU WILL SACRIFICE a hitters chances at success in HITTING THE BASEBALL.

Im having trouble taking your word on this. I understand not wanting to see a bar in the beginning, but it being detrimental going into contact is not a fault IMO.

The arm barring into contact may play a role in adjustability(inside pitch/outside pitch)...depending on your definition.

little league home run...pitch middle-in
http://cache4.gettyimages.com/xc/71705820.jpg?v=1&c=NewsMaker&k=2&d=17A4AD9FDB9CF193875DCB1DD8387ABB936AC37947F876C6 4E9C89C783688B46
little league home run...pitch middle-away
http://cache2.gettyimages.com/xc/76257679.jpg?v=1&c=NewsMaker&k=2&d=17A4AD9FDB9CF193FFEBF363310EAEED35256DB3BA229952

[BoardMember]

Dee, I'm talking about "in the begining". I believe my post have aways stated "Early in the swing".

Release and Extension into contact was never on my plate regarding this.


BM

Does adjustability have to be sacrificed in order to add power?

I would like to hear your definition of "adjustibility", and what are the contributing factors to it.

BM

Im having trouble taking your word on this. I understand not wanting to see a bar in the beginning, but it being detrimental going into contact is not a fault IMO.

The arm barring into contact may play a role in adjustability(inside pitch/outside pitch)...depending on your definition.

little league home run...pitch middle-in
http://cache4.gettyimages.com/xc/71705820.jpg?v=1&c=NewsMaker&k=2&d=17A4AD9FDB9CF193875DCB1DD8387ABB936AC37947F876C6 4E9C89C783688B46
little league home run...pitch middle-away
http://cache2.gettyimages.com/xc/76257679.jpg?v=1&c=NewsMaker&k=2&d=17A4AD9FDB9CF193FFEBF363310EAEED35256DB3BA229952

[Deemax]

If you promote Arm Bar into contact, YOU WILL SACRIFICE a hitters chances at success in HITTING THE BASEBALL.

This lead to my confusion on your previous post. It kinda sounds like your talking about into contact.

[BoardMember]

BM

Does adjustability have to be sacrificed in order to add power?

It does if adding power to the swing includes early bar.

I would like to hear your definition of "adjustibility", and what are the contributing factors to it.
[/QUOTE]

An amount of flexion in the lead elbow being maintained (dare I say "box maintainence"?) until the hands pass the rear shoulder is the adjustability I'm speaking of. Once the hands pass the rear shoulder it's pretty much moot, except for a late checking of the swing.

Checking is NOT adjusting.

[BoardMember]

This lead to my confusion on your previous post. It kinda sounds like your talking about into contact.

I understand. I NEVER promote ARM BAR per say.

I ONLY understand ARM BAR as a LOCKED OUT position. I don't believe the extension you've shown anywhere is a PURPOSE LOCKOUT of the lead arm.

Allowing the arm to extend IS NOT BARRING THE ARM.

[swingbuilder]

Dee, I'm talking about "in the begining". I believe my post have aways stated "Early in the swing".

Release and Extension into contact was never on my plate regarding this.

No...If you promote Arm Bar into contact

Arm bar is a fault in the loading phase only.

[Drill]

Differentiate between "lead arm extension" and "lead arm barring".


As Donny stated it

"Bar arm is early lead arm extension. The early extension of the lead arm creates a long swing radius with no torque in the midsection and a slow powerless swing. Lead arm extension should occur during the stride by hip/shoulder spatial separation. The rear elbow moving “up and in” as the hips open should extend the arm naturally."

Donney also wrote that "'Bar arming' is when a player extends the lead arm fully and THEN shifts the weight."

My understanding is that Donny, much like Yeager, wanted to see "lead arm extension" take place during the positive weight shift forward. Someone here wrote the cue "walk away from the hands" and I've found that this cue can work for some of my students in terms of when they achieve lead arm extension


I saved this from a early post from another thread,


drill

[FiveFrameSwing]

ok, the shoulders are not an engine!

I think it would help if you took the time to better understand the importance of lead arm extension.

The main hitting lever runs from the lead shoulder, to the lead elbow, to the bottom-hand wrist. In Donny's own words ... "Baseball is potentially a triple pendulum swing where the shoulder, the lead elbow, and the wrist are the levers."

Donny also wrote "Great players are getting some lead arm extension AS they shift and separate."

The importance of the main hitting lever shouldn't be overlooked.

I had two kids today that drastically improved the ball exit speed by simply working on "maintaining lead arm extension" into contact. Real data suggests that Chris Yeager and Donny were spot on with this concept.

[BoardMember]

I think it would help if you took the time to better understand the importance of lead arm extension.

Sorry 5, it won't happen. To be a member of HI, the shoulder complex MUST BE BYPASSED.

I'm still waiting for an answer from SB on this:

Here is a question. Which is it?

A.) Does the Kinetic Link more closely resemble a chain being pulled from slack to taught?

Or

B.) Does the Kinetic Link resemble a set of blasting caps wired in series, tripping the balistics of human bio-mechanics as they are signaled?

An answer of A or B will suffice............

Which is it? Be careful. You may not like your own answer........

I think it would help if you took the time to better understand the importance of lead arm extension.

The main hitting lever runs from the lead shoulder, to the lead elbow, to the bottom-hand wrist. In Donny's own words ... "Baseball is potentially a triple pendulum swing where the shoulder, the lead elbow, and the wrist are the levers."

Donny also wrote "Great players are getting some lead arm extension AS they shift and separate."

The importance of the main hitting lever shouldn't be overlooked.

I had two kids today that drastically improved the ball exit speed by simply working on "maintaining lead arm extension" into contact. Real data suggests that Chris Yeager and Donny were spot on with this concept.

[FiveFrameSwing]

Sorry 5, it won't happen. To be a member of HI, the shoulder complex MUST BE BYPASSED.

I'm still waiting for an answer from SB on this:

I don't think SB truly represents HI.

Donny was extremely knowledgable and didn't refute the Kinetic Link.

[jbooth]

I don't think SB truly represents HI.

Donny was extremely knowledgable and didn't refute the Kinetic Link.

HI isn't based upon Donny's theories, it's based upon Ohfor/Teacherman/Richard's second engine theory, which Swingbuilder supports and agrees with. The hands are a magic tool that moves the hips and the hands move the bat with the hips but, with no help of the shoulders, they are bypassed. Except I'm not really sure what they mean by that.

[FiveFrameSwing]

HI isn't based upon Donny's theories, it's based upon Ohfor/Teacherman/Richard's second engine theory, which Swingbuilder supports and agrees with. The hands are a magic tool that moves the hips and the hands move the bat with the hips but, with no help of the shoulders, they are bypassed. Except I'm not really sure what they mean by that.

My understanding is that Donny believed in both the concept of "early bat speed" and the "Kinetic Link Principle".

I don't believe the two are mutually exclusive.

[Encinitas]

HI isn't based upon Donny's theories, it's based upon Ohfor/Teacherman/Richard's second engine theory, which Swingbuilder supports and agrees with. The hands are a magic tool that moves the hips and the hands move the bat with the hips but, with no help of the shoulders, they are bypassed. Except I'm not really sure what they mean by that.

I know you despise Richard and have your reasons, but this is not accurate. I am pretty sure Donny was the guy who registered the site... The whole hittingillustrated site was his idea. BHUT was Donny's preferred implementation of Tom Guerry's early bat speed postings that have been all over the net for years, and such was a believer in hand torque. Donny posted almost daily over at that site.

[BoardMember]

I don't think SB truly represents HI.



Au Contraire. SB is absolutely a representitive of HI, as is mbs.

I suspect neither one will answer my question directly as A or B. You see, there is a problem with either answer in terms of HI theory.

You see, answer A proves ignorance. Answer B debunks the "slack/slop" theory of the kinetic link.

Here's the problem.

As I understand it at HI, the shoulders don't rotate, they "laterally tilt".

This "tilt" as they call it, happens as the "slack" is taken out of the "chain" as the hips open early, causing the shoulders to tilt. :confused:

As I said, Answer B debunks the "slack/slop" theory of the kinetic link.

So, at HI, the shoulders do not "tilt" as a result of any muscular activity in the shoulder complex. The shoulder complex is "bypassed", adding nothing to the swing, because they don't rotate, they just tilt. :confused:

You see, at HI, this is NOT shoulder rotation, it is just "tilt". Oh, I mean "lateral tilt". :rofl: It is not "Tilted Rotation" either. It is just tilt.

http://ramellibandr.com/SHA/wrightshoulders.gif

At HI, there is NO balistic activity in this guy's shoulder complex assisting or causing rotation. It's ONLY the hips taking out the "slack", and the "hands moving the arms", causing these shoulders to "tilt". :confused::rofl::confused:

So, answer B is a problem because it insinuates that the muscles involved in the swing are "fired, not pulled".

At HI, the hips turn, and the hands fire. The shoulders are "pulled into lateral tilt". :confused::rofl:

There, clear as MUD right?.........:dance

[FiveFrameSwing]

So, at HI, the shoulders do not "tilt" as a result of any muscular activity in the shoulder complex. The shoulder complex is "bypassed", adding nothing to the swing, because they don't rotate, they just tilt. :confused:


Well, yes, I am confused.

When I look at MLB hitting videos I see shoulder rotation.

I believe the confusion at HI may be that while the shoulders initially resist rotation during the creation of upper body separation, that they are involved in the Kinetic Link. DeRenne's graphs clearly show that shoulder rotation begins shortly after hip rotation, and shoulder rotation reaches a higher rotational velocity than that of the hips. His graphs also show that shoulder rotation decelerates after hip rotation decelerates. The order of progression and relative rotational velocities are clear.

They also seem to be somewhat confused with respect to the function of the hands. While they understand Donny's and Tom's concept of early bat speed, they've taken it too far and almost suggest that the hands are the brains of the entire swing. What seems to be lost is that the hands don't move by themselves, but that they can be trained to be sync'd with a clean Kinetically Linked swing (for lack of a better phrase).

[BoardMember]

Well, yes, I am confused.

When I look at MLB hitting videos I see shoulder rotation.

I believe the confusion at HI may be that while the shoulders initially resist rotation during the creation of upper body separation, that they are involved in the Kinetic Link.

Believe me, it isn't confusion. It's a different agenda.

DeRenne's graphs clearly show that shoulder rotation begins shortly after hip rotation, and reaches a higher rotational velocity than that of the hips. His graphs also show that shoulder rotation decelerates after hip rotation decelerates. The order of progression and relative rotational velocity is clear.

They will insist till they are blue in the face that "this Isn't saying what it says". Believe me when I tell you this.

It's called "Dogma" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dogma).

They also seem to be somewhat confused with respect to the function of the hands. While they understand Donny's and Tom's concept of early bat speed, they've taken it too far and almost suggest that the hands are the brains of the entire swing.

As evidenced by the famous SB statement: "the hands move back, but not by way of the arms"..........:rofl:

What seems to be lost is that the hands don't move by themselves, but that they can be trained to be sync'd with a clean Kinetically Linked swing (for lack of a better phrase).

Again, "Dogma" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dogma) stands in the way of fact and logic at HI.

[LClifton]

So, at HI, the shoulders do not "tilt" as a result of any muscular activity in the shoulder complex. The shoulder complex is "bypassed", adding nothing to the swing, because they don't rotate, they just tilt.
Just for the record this is not how I see it.
No one cares I'm sure, but I don't think the shoulders "just tilt".

As evidenced by the famous SB statement: "the hands move back, but not by way of the arms"..........
Is the forearm, elbow joint, and the area from the shoulder down to the elbow joint, considered part of the arm? Of course.
How those (that I have posted before, not that it matters) move are what is important to the load process and the "manner" in which a player will then unload.

Let me clarify, for what it's worth, simply pushing the hands back-- let's say in a straight line toward the catcher--- is not what I would want a hitter to do, to achieve lead arm extension.

In a very rudimentary sense here is what I like to see,

Turn the top hand (palm) down, (or nearly down).

From there;
What does the bottom hand do 99% of the time?
It moves toward the catcher.

What does this cause the lead arm do?
It extends some.
Shoulder --scap loading-- is the goal.

What does the elbow do?
It wants to move up and back,,,if it doesn't show the student this.
Lead arm extension occurs.

If the shoulders are relaxed this is a very good load, it flows, IMO.
If the shoulders are too tense, I see counter rotation, usually.

If you simply push the hands back toward the catcher, the vision I get is both hands move extending the arms, rather than what I TRIED to describe above, which is a load, cocking the wrists, getting the barrel pointed toward the pitcher, effectively taking the top hand and putting it in a position to where it can reverse course (get palm up) because it CAN'T push forward from that position.


To be a member of HI, the shoulder complex MUST BE BYPASSED.
The shoulders then have an option, Board Member, turn hard, with the hips.
Is that what you believe?,,,I think not.
If / since bypass is a poor description to you and others,,,fine.
Should a description that needs you to step in and "translate" its meaning suit you better,,,,then go for it. You are an independent and I respect that.
That is the direction I'm going to take because the fact is, IT IS NOT A WAR, for me.

The beligerant nature of posts to try to discredit others is nauseating.
I am sick of it, personally.
Frankly, I enjoy talking hitting and have learned from many with their various descriptions.
Also Board Member, when I get to your status with kids signing college letters(meant as a compliment)... I may post then, but probably not.

With that,,, I'm out of this whole mess. (no real loss, I'm sure.---:) )

To everyone, may your hitters all excel in 2008.

[jima]

[QUOTE}Golf is light years ahead of baseball in terms of leverage, swing analysis, mechanics, and teaching.
Golf is way ahead in technology.

If you hate the golf analogy thats your perogitive.
Yes, I said that.

I think much can be learned from it, and I wont dismiss it based on name less internet advisers saying its a "fault by definition".
What can be learned? ... and your claim to fame Dale?

Im not willing to ignore what could be a great learning tool.... Are you?
yup...I will consider tennis; ping pong; and, darts.

I think ignoring it is ignorance, and ignorance sucks.
I agree.

Sorry that I am not discussing your engines. This discussions not far different, and much can be learned from golf mechanics....much....especially how this engine creates its drive.
I think we've already been through this.

Most instructors I meet still want to teach hitters to get the front foot down early, and swing down through the ball.
I like hitters who get their foot down in time to hit...everyone's hands go down before they swing up.

Prove it by showing how arm bar on certain locations and positions is a detriment.
BM already did.

Your mind already seems made up...What do you want me to prove to you? Conduct interviews with instructors maybe?
Try quoting a book.

[swingbuilder]

"the hands move back, but not by way of the arms"..........

bm, I did not say this.

What I said is that using the arms to move the hands back in the loading phase is barring the arm and is not to be coupled together with "lead arm extension" into contact.

Let me also add here that Donny was not the lead or registered the hittingillustrated.com web site.

[Deemax]

Jimaand your claim to fame Dale?

My family, mostly my children.

yup...I will consider tennis; ping pong; and, darts.

You will consider them what? Whatever you have to do I guess. I wont waste a post past this one trying to explain to you what you dont know... I dont have the time.

BM brings alot to hitting discussions. With that being said, I think I will only respond to one BM. Maybe from time to time you could chime in and say "ditto!" after a BM post.

Thanks for the great responses and original thought!

-Dale

[Encinitas]

bm, I did not say this.

Let me also add here that Donny was not the lead or registered the hittingillustrated.com web site.

No not the lead, but I am talking about who originally registered the name at the internet domain service. I could swear when I did a "whois" it was registered by Swingbuster sports. My point being part of HI was certainly his idea, but Rich and his son built the site. Donny was not technical and had a hard time even figuring out how to post clips.

[jima]

Jima

My family, mostly my children.



You will consider them what? Whatever you have to do I guess. I wont waste a post past this one trying to explain to you what you dont know... I dont have the time.

BM brings alot to hitting discussions. With that being said, I think I will only respond to one BM. Maybe from time to time you could chime in and say "ditto!" after a BM post.

Thanks for the great responses and original thought!

-Dale

Hmmm... big Dee reread the thread, I didn't bring the attitude to the post...I only chimed in when the issue of golf came up...something I'm more familiar with...I don't "ditto" BM (although I like the fact the doesn't kiss up to the various factions that like to fight all the time), in fact he's got some facts wrong about golf...pls reread the thread (you missed the whole point by not recognizing that we were all (except you) talking about late extension and you insisted on showing Tiger at the top...Brilliant. Hang in there kid.

[Deemax]

Hmmm... big Dee reread the thread, I didn't bring the attitude to the post...I only chimed in when the issue of golf came up...something I'm more familiar with...I don't "ditto" BM (although I like the fact the doesn't kiss up to the various factions that like to fight all the time), in fact he's got some facts wrong about golf...pls reread the thread (you missed the whole point by not recognizing that we were all (except you) talking about late extension and you insisted on showing Tiger at the top...Brilliant. Hang in there kid.

.........:shhh::shhh::shhh: Its ironic you mention re-reading the thread...take another peak at it yourself. You clearly missed my points. Maybe someone else will take your bait... Sorry that its not me.

[BoardMember]

in fact he's got some facts wrong about golf...

OK buddy boy.............:highfive:

Cough it up!........

[jima]

OK buddy boy.............:highfive:

Cough it up!........

OK BM, but are you sure that you want to duel with your "ditto boy"?
In discussing "straight arm" in golf you said that it was a more powerful position. Yes, if you are trying to leverage a 300lb golf ball. Try standing up like you are addressing a golf ball....what moves your arms the fastest to where the ball would be, a locked out straight arm or a relaxed slightly bent lead arm? A locked straight arm may be stronger but not faster and speed is what you need to propel the golf ball. OK take that you inedependent thinking bully:dance jima

[BoardMember]

Ok Ditto boy, NOW WE HAVE TO TALK. This is not baseball we're talking about. "Quick hands" mean nothing in golf. The Golf Swing is all about leverage and whip.

IF your hands were hitting the golf ball, I might agree with you. BUT there is this thing called a "golf club", and it's a 45" long lever (note key word).

I'm going to let you figure it out yourself, but start with the club head and work "backwards". :dance



OK BM, but are you sure that you want to duel with your "ditto boy"?
In discussing "straight arm" in golf you said that it was a more powerful position. Yes, if you are trying to leverage a 300lb golf ball. Try standing up like you are addressing a golf ball....what moves your arms the fastest to where the ball would be, a locked out straight arm or a relaxed slightly bent lead arm? A locked straight arm may be stronger but not faster and speed is what you need to propel the golf ball. OK take that you inedependent thinking bully:dance jima

[jima]

Ok Ditto boy, NOW WE HAVE TO TALK. This is not baseball we're talking about. "Quick hands" mean nothing in golf. The Golf Swing is all about leverage and whip.

IF your hands were hitting the golf ball, I might agree with you. BUT there is this thing called a "golf club", and it's a 45" long lever (note key word).

I'm going to let you figure it out yourself, but start with the club head and work "backwards". :dance

All right sir, you've got my dander up, right when Ok and WVA are coming on...Yes, you are correct that the longer the shaft the faster the clubhead speed, but I thought we were talking about locked out straight arm versus bent elbow. My point was that pro golfers do not lock out the lead arm until impact because they can generate more hand/club head speed with a relaxed lead arm. Do you take exception to that? DB

[BoardMember]

With that,,, I'm out of this whole mess.

Loren, while I see this as a "bad move" on your part, because your contributions are universally good one's, I would agree that you would be wise get "your teaching" away from their teacher.

A very wise man once told me: When things just don't add up, "check the formula first"......:think:

Keep in touch! :thumbsup:

Just for the record this is not how I see it.
No one cares I'm sure, but I don't think the shoulders "just tilt".

[BoardMember]

You are partially correct. Pro Golfers (like myself ;)) allow a SLIGHT bend in the lead arm to maintain a tension free swing. Tension causes a lot of problems in the golf swing, having more to do with facilitating whip from the mechanical advantage, then anything else.

Hand speed into contact really has nothing to do with it.

The goal in the golf swing has nothing what-so-ever to do with creating quickness at the hands.

A severe but tension free lead arm extension is desired to attain the widest swing radius possible. The wider the radius, the bigger the mechanical advantage, and the more whip and angular acceleration at the outer most portion of the lever.

Yes, you are correct that the longer the shaft the faster the clubhead speed,

This is because of the wider swing radius. The same is true for the lead arm.

Now go watch your shows.......;)

All right sir, you've got my dander up, right when Ok and WVA are coming on...Yes, you are correct that the longer the shaft the faster the clubhead speed, but I thought we were talking about locked out straight arm versus bent elbow. My point was that pro golfers do not lock out the lead arm until impact because they can generate more hand/club head speed with a relaxed lead arm. Do you take exception to that? DB

[jbooth]

Hand speed into contact really has nothing to do with it.

I think I know what you MEAN, but I don't think you mean that literally. If the hands aren't moving at a high rate, the clubhead won't either.

The goal in the golf swing has nothing what-so-ever to do with creating quickness at the hands.

Not in the Quickness sense, that you need to get from a to b in time to hit the ball, but the hands do need to accelerate quickly and achieve a good speed before they release the clubhead, don't they?

[BoardMember]

Let me put it this way: "Swinging slow is NOT the goal, but widening the radius of the swing arc is."

Unlike hitting, Accuracy is PARAMOUNT in the game of golf. Rhythm and Tempo are critical. Creating rhythm and tempo allows the golfer maximum control. Widening the swing arc allows for maximum club head speed without sacrificing rhythm and tempo for accuracy.

Quickness is irrelevent. There is no closing speed of a golf ball.

Now you could make an argument for the "long drive" contestants hand speed. But they are NOT playing golf.

Also, you don't get an "unlimited number of foul balls" in golf, so balistic action is tempered with rhythm and tempo for accuracy.

One foul ball and you LOSE the match-hole. 3-4 foul balls and you lose the stroke play tournament. It ain't baseball, thats for sure! ;)



I think I know what you MEAN, but I don't think you mean that literally. If the hands aren't moving at a high rate, the clubhead won't either.

Not in the Quickness sense, that you need to get from a to b in time to hit the ball, but the hands do need to accelerate quickly and achieve a good speed before they release the clubhead, don't they?

[BoardMember]

FYI, this product is becoming the fastest selling metronome in golf, among both professional and amatures a like:

Swing-Tempo (http://swing-tempo.com/)

I've used it for hitting to train tempo in the swing for tee work and machine work........

Let me put it this way: "Swinging slow is NOT the goal, but widening the radius of the swing arc is."

Unlike hitting, Accuracy is PARAMOUNT in the game of golf. Rhythm and Tempo are critical. Creating rhythm and tempo allows the golfer maximum control. Widening the swing arc allows for maximum club head speed without sacrificing rhythm and tempo for accuracy.

Quickness is irrelevent. There is no closing speed of a golf ball.

Now you could make an argument for the "long drive" contestants hand speed. But they are NOT playing golf.

Also, you don't get an "unlimited number of foul balls" in golf, so balistic action is tempered with rhythm and tempo for accuracy.

One foul ball and you LOSE the match-hole. 3-4 foul balls and you lose the stroke play tournament. It ain't baseball, thats for sure! ;)

[Drill]

FYI, this product is becoming the fastest selling metronome in golf, among both professional and amatures a like:

Swing-Tempo (http://swing-tempo.com/)

I've used it for hitting to train tempo in the swing for tee work and machine work........

Do you use it in vibration mode? If so where do you wear it to get the best tempo. But in the end after you take the machine out of your pants tempo has to happens in the head, my swing key/cue was "smooooooth it" and was a fairly consistent golfer.

Music people to get there tempo down use a martyrdom but after practice you still have to have it in your head for your body to react.

Not downing the practice tool, just reminding people how you need to apply it.


respectfully yours,

drill

[Deemax]

BMI've used it for hitting to train tempo in the swing for tee work and machine work........

Can you go into further detail on how your using this tool, and the drills that accompany it?

Does it have anything to do with repeating the tempo that goes into thier seperation?

-curious.

[BoardMember]

Do you use it in vibration mode?

Nope, I use it in audio/visual mode.

Music people to get there tempo down use a martyrdom

Very funny drill..........

Not downing the practice tool, just reminding people how you need to apply it.

VJ says: SEVENTEEN..........HIT.

[BoardMember]

BM

Can you go into further detail on how your using this tool, and the drills that accompany it?

Does it have anything to do with repeating the tempo that goes into thier seperation?

-curious.

The initial "ready tone" signals the hitting to move from pre-set to set. IE lifting the bat from the trap up to ready, with a slight vertical load into the rear hip.

The "backswing" tone signals the hitter to "load the top side" and begin the stride.

The "downswing" tone signals the "heal plant-launch" sequence.

There is a very slight pause between the backswing and downswing tones called the "topswing" in golf, or "transition" in hitting. This slight pause works really well for teaching hitters to separate the sequence.

The "transition" pause really keeps the separation "on time".

The fact that you can adjust the timing in all three points, Backswing, Topswing (transition) and downswing (Launch) makes it very useable for any individual's swing sequence, but ingrains the same basic tempo.

You can just try it in your head and see how it works.

Just say, "beep" for ready, "Beeeeeeeep" for Load/Stride..(Slight Pause)....."Beep" for launch.

Adjusting the Stride/Load "beep" length (by adding "e's") keeps a hitter from rushing the load/stride sequence.

Its just a great tempo tool."thumbsup: