Swings for review [Archive]

ralanprod

12-27-2007, 08:50 AM

Chris O'Leary

12-27-2007, 11:15 AM

Here are before and after swings taken of my 9yo son at a recent epstein clinic.

Before (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-NSqm3JqII)

After (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xi2tnCyeQ7c)

I'm looking for suggestions on what he still needs to work on.

Thanks in advance.

He's got a good swing given his age.

I wouldn't mess with him.

Drill

12-27-2007, 11:51 AM

Get an agent and hold out for more money

drill

good job

BoardMember

12-27-2007, 01:51 PM

LOL Drill!

I agree with Chris.......

Get an agent and hold out for more money

drill

good job

Jake Patterson

12-27-2007, 05:43 PM

Here are before and after swings taken of my 9yo son at a recent epstein clinic.

Before (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-NSqm3JqII)

After (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xi2tnCyeQ7c)

I'm looking for suggestions on what he still needs to work on.

Thanks in advance.

The after has him swinging at a high pitch. Do you have anything in the middle. It would be difficult offering anything meaningful.

Overall not bad!

beemax

12-27-2007, 11:46 PM

jbooth

12-28-2007, 12:06 AM

I like his load a lot better in the before clip. His balance is better in the after clip, but I don't see any significant load back in that one.

I see a fluid, nice, natural swing in the before clip. I see a mechanical, robotic type swing in the second clip.

My advice would be to let him load back, as he does in the first clip, and do that while keeping his balance, as he does in the second clip.

Tough to say too much from those two clips, but your boy is only nine. I would just tell him to do what I said above while playing hard and having fun on the field. He's got a lot of time to develop.

There's at least a half-dozen things wrong with the "before" swing, including the load that you seem to think is good, and very little wrong with the "after" swing, and the "after" swing probably produces hits with about twice the power as the "before" swing.

Sure, the "after" swing needs to be refined, but he's only nine, and he will have success now, whereas, he would get nowhere with the "before" swing.

beemax

12-28-2007, 12:25 AM

There's at least a half-dozen things wrong with the "before" swing, including the load that you seem to think is good, and very little wrong with the "after" swing, and the "after" swing probably produces hits with about twice the power as the "before" swing.

Sure, the "after" swing needs to be refined, but he's only nine, and he will have success now, whereas, he would get nowhere with the "before" swing.

If you think there are a half dozen things wrong with his before swing, let ralanprod know what you think. That was the point of this thread to begin with.

IMO, in the after swing he is going from dead start. In the before clip he has both and upper and lower body load. Yes his blance is off, as he slides his hips and finishes with a stumble.

I think that if he were to incorporate parts of each swing he would be better off. I think he creates more power in the before swing with his load. Since his balance was off, that doesn't amount to much repetition with the swing. I don't doubt that he would be more consistent with the second swing, but I don't think it would create a lot of power. So, in conclusion, I think there are more hits with the after swing but less power.

Again its just two clips and he's nine. I think he can create more power than what I see in the after clip, IMO.

XV84

12-28-2007, 03:16 AM

Would have been a better comparison if he was swinging at a ball in the "before" vid.

Pitch location aside, Excellent forearm and wrist action in the "after" video. Matches the swing plane to ball really well. Looks to be more in control of the bat. I can see that Epstein training has had an influence on this. He's letting the hands control the swing. Also more balanced because he doesn't have to rely on hip slide to shift the weight. He only needs to plant the foot with a bent knee and let the heel land because the hips have already cleared.

The "before" video, he's just dragging the bat or pulling on the handle, and letting the weight of it create the whip. The swing is longer. He's not letting the hands control the swing, instead relying on the weight shift of the hips and shoulder turn. Should be creating separation, something Epstein touches on, letting the front leg open and pull the hips around. Instead I see him swinging around or into a stiff/straight front leg.

The "after" swing is shorter and quicker. The whip is instant.

I tried to synch the vids to contact. The before vid there is no ball so I'm guessing that contact should be made the frame before the wrist rolls over. In the after vid contact is made between 2 frames so the camera didn't pick it up so I chose the frame before extension.

http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa173/xvue84/new/joshbeforeafter.gif
http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa173/xvue84/new/joshbeforeafterslow.gif
http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa173/xvue84/new/joshwhip.gif

ralanprod

12-28-2007, 07:11 AM

Thanks for the replies and analysis everyone.

There were some good points made.

I see what is being said about the lack of load in the after clip. Although at this point he is actually hitting with more power than before, I see where he could pick up a bit more. I'll probably leave his swing as is for now. As he gets older, I'll try to add in a little load. I don't want to try to teach too much too fast and get him screwed up.

Also, with regard to loading up, I think it may have been causing him issues last season. He was constantly late on pitches. It was his first "kid pitch" season, and he had real problems adjusting to the timing. It's real easy to hit bombs with a big looping swing when the coach is just lobbing it in there. Not so much when the pitcher is actually trying to get you out. Hopefully his new "quicker" swing will help him make more contact this season.

JK-CA

12-30-2007, 09:28 PM

ralanprod,

Its topics like this that make these forums so tough to decipher information.

I see a few improvements, but the main items that will cause your son to not be successful is still evident in his swing. He severely drags the bat, meaning that the top hand elbow gets ahead of the bat and pushes/reaches in attempt to hit as opposed to letting the barrel travel by a "connected rotation" (to quote a few people far more knowledgeable then I)

This is evident in the "after" clip as right when the ball leaves the bat head, a major pushing action occurs with the hands.

Try loading by applying tension in the back scapula or watch how a guy like bonds loads his whole body.

Feel free to pm me.

Encinitas

12-30-2007, 11:17 PM

I think the kid is a natural tip and rip candidate and his athleticism has been taken away. The first thing I'd have tried is some of Buster's tee drills with the barrel tipped out towards second base.

He gets some natural separation, turns the bat over in the old clip. Just fixing the wrapped barrel and doing nothing else in the old swing is a great start.

Of course the old clip is a dry swing.

4for4

12-30-2007, 11:36 PM

I think the kid is a natural tip and rip candidate...

What is a natural tip and rip candidate? Is that different than an un-natural one? If the bat doesn't tip out to second but in some other direction is that OK? If so, what directions are within tolerance?

In what frame(s) is the bat turning over. Is that a literal or a descriptive term you've created?

Baseball gLove

12-30-2007, 11:48 PM

He was definitely over rotating during his load in the 1st clip and had some bat drag.

In the 2nd clip, I'd like to see a small step or a heel lift of the front foot. I noticed that he was not on the greatest of surfaces for his footwear and did a good job making contact despite his front foot slip on the grass. Sometimes kids have to swing at those high pitches.

Baseball gLove

12-30-2007, 11:57 PM

Encinitas

12-31-2007, 01:06 AM

What is a natural tip and rip candidate? Is that different than an un-natural one? If the bat doesn't tip out to second but in some other direction is that OK? If so, what directions are within tolerance?

In what frame(s) is the bat turning over. Is that a literal or a descriptive term you've created?

This is pretty simple, a kid with naturally good movement doesn't need it taken away from him. He has early bat speed. This isn't like one of the kids JJA posted. This kid has the makings of a little separation built in why kill it? The barrel goes toward the catcher why kill it? The first thing I'd try to just to eliminate the bat wrap with more of a vertical or helmet splitting and see if that keeps the back arm from externally rotating prematurely.

Oh sorry there is no frame that the hands turn the bat over. Basically the rearward arc happens the moment he starts the swing. It's right there as plain as day.

ralanprod

12-31-2007, 07:53 AM

After reading through the responses, there are obviously some varied opinions on things that can be worked on.

Keeping in mind that he is only 9, so there are obviously physical/muscle control issues that can't be changed till he is a bit older, what is the biggest issue that you feel needs to be addressed?

4for4

12-31-2007, 09:58 AM

This is pretty simple

Boy, if this were that simple then you would have addressed my questions. But hey, thanks for the answer non-answer.

Let's try again and I'll number the questions so that they are more set out.

1) What is a natural tip and rip candidate?

a) Is that [a natural tip and rip candidate] different than an un-natural one?

2) If the bat doesn't tip out to second but in some other direction is that OK?

a)If so, what directions are within tolerance?

New questions:

Since it is so simple, please tell me

3) What is naturally good movement, ie., how do you define it?

4) What does separation mean to you and what frame(s) is this player displaying his built-in separation?

5) How do you define bat wrap?

a) If the first thing you would do with this player is have him get the bat splitting the helmet, would that be the same as having the bat point toward second base (see question 2 above) or have you changed the direction of where you want his bat pointed in two different posts?

b) Which MLB player would best display the barrel pointing you are referring to?

6) In your mind, what is premature external rotation?

a) What frame(s) is the kid externally rotating prematurely?

Oh sorry there is no frame that the hands turn the bat over. Basically the rearward arc happens the moment he starts the swing. It's right there as plain as day.

Hey, no need to be sorry. I understand your conundrum. Anyway, here goes another one:

7) When is this player starting his swing...in your mind?

Look, if you are unable to answer these questions, just say so. I doubt it would be held against you. Good luck!

Encinitas

12-31-2007, 12:13 PM

Let's try again and I'll number the questions so that they are more set out.

1) What is a natural tip and rip candidate?

a) Is that [a natural tip and rip candidate] different than an un-natural one?

Yes. If I get a kid who is not that coordinated I don't think it's the best place to start. This kid can clearly swing a bat already. This kid's barrel goes rearward, he gets a little separation.

3) What is naturally good movement, ie., how do you define it?

This question borders on ridiculous. Don't you have something better to do? Did you see the more challenged kids that JJA posted? If you can't see the difference then that explains a lot.

However since you insist, and since you are pretending to care what I think, watch the path of the barrel.

4) What does separation mean to you and what frame(s) is this player displaying his built-in separation?

Hips start ahead of the shoulders. The frame where the heel gets down he has a slight opening of the lower half with the hands still back.

5) How do you define bat wrap?

Barrel significantly behind the head in the neck slot.

a) If the first thing you would do with this player is have him get the bat splitting the helmet, would that be the same as having the bat point toward second base (see question 2 above) or have you changed the direction of where you want his bat pointed in two different posts?

Personally I consider helmet splitting to me pointed more towards the pitcher. If pointing towards second base, then it's likely the barrel is more outside the helmet. There is no ideal slot since we are not teaching robots here. I know that level of imprecision is bothersome to you but to be honest the ideal slot is where they find the most comfort.

b) Which MLB player would best display the barrel pointing you are referring to?

He'd have to find his ideal slot. In this hitter's case, it might even just be the 45 slot instead of wrapped in the neck slot, but it would be some experimentation.

6) In your mind, what is premature external rotation?

a) What frame(s) is the kid externally rotating prematurely?

When the back elbow is slotting down the rear arm has rotated externally in the arm slot prior to the front side opening. This is Premature External Rotation, and is extremely common amongst kids and according to Dmac much like a little bat drag, it's nothing to get anxious about.

As far as the frame, I see it starting in frame 20-21, and is really evident in 22.

7) When is this player starting his swing...in your mind?

Look, if you are unable to answer these questions, just say so. I doubt it would be held against you. Good luck!

He is starting his swing while striding.

Now what is the point of this? How does it help the original poster? Are we not able to comment on a swing without some 7 question pop quiz?

4for4

12-31-2007, 01:38 PM

This had some promise until you got reactionary. Hopefully you can get back on track or just keep reacting the way you do.

Yes. If I get a kid who is not that coordinated I don't think it's the best place to start. This kid can clearly swing a bat already. This kid's barrel goes rearward, he gets a little separation.

If it is so clear, why do the opinions on the two swings differ?

This question borders on ridiculous. Don't you have something better to do? Did you see the more challenged kids that JJA posted? If you can't see the difference then that explains a lot.

However since you insist, and since you are pretending to care what I think, watch the path of the barrel.

Well, actually the terms you used were so general as to render them utterly meaningless. That's why I asked you what your definition was. You haven't done anything to clear that up with this answer. Care to take another shot at it? And I haven't given you enough thought to determine whether I care about you so quit thinking about it.

Hips start ahead of the shoulders. The frame where the heel gets down he has a slight opening of the lower half with the hands still back.

Thx, but based on how you've defined it, it looks like he has none, but you did say slight. He does counter rotate earlier, but that's not good.

Barrel significantly behind the head in the neck slot.

Thx. Do you see this as a universal flaw or is this just something you would prefer to see kids avoid?

Personally I consider helmet splitting to me pointed more towards the pitcher. If pointing towards second base, then it's likely the barrel is more outside the helmet. There is no ideal slot since we are not teaching robots here. I know that level of imprecision is bothersome to you but to be honest the ideal slot is where they find the most comfort.

He'd have to find his ideal slot. In this hitter's case, it might even just be the 45 slot instead of wrapped in the neck slot, but it would be some experimentation.

What's bothersome to me is the lack of precise imprecision in your posts, your emotional responses and your insistence that you know what I'm thinking. That's why Q and A like this can be helpful. Now, I gather he sees that some variability in the approach is good. It doesn't have to be done, in what seems to be suggested in all too often the case, with the barrel in any one spot, like pointing at second base. Thanks for the clarification.

Given that, it would seem that since there's so much variability to the position of the barrel that it's not really that important in regards to overall swing mechanics but rather individual to the hitter.

When the back elbow is slotting down the rear arm has rotated externally in the arm slot prior to the front side opening. This is Premature External Rotation, and is extremely common amongst kids and according to Dmac much like a little bat drag, it's nothing to get anxious about.

As far as the frame, I see it starting in frame 20-21, and is really evident in 22.

Thx. What frames in this swing would it be better for the young chap to be lowering the back arm?

He is starting his swing while striding.

In that case, it would be a flaw.

Deemax

01-01-2008, 02:11 PM

Here are before and after swings taken of my 9yo son at a recent epstein clinic.

Before (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-NSqm3JqII)

After (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xi2tnCyeQ7c)

I'm looking for suggestions on what he still needs to work on.

Thanks in advance.

IMO his first swing is better. What exactly did he get "taught" to lead to the second swing?

ralanprod

01-02-2008, 07:22 AM

IMO his first swing is better. What exactly did he get "taught" to lead to the second swing?

Well, it may not show well in the video, but I think the biggest improvement is that he is staying inside the ball now. You may be able to see a little in the first video that he had the habit of letting is hands get too far away from his body. His swing is much quicker now from the point that he makes the decision to swing, to contact. He still has a bat drag issue, but that improved quite a bit as well.

However, I think there may have been too much of an adjustment in trying to eliminate the problem he had with over rotating (over loading - however it should be phrased). He went from too much load, to none at all. I think that I need to gradually get him to work on loading, without having him wrap the back back as far as he used too.

Despite what I or anyone sees in video, the results speak for themselves. He is hitting overall has improved. He is making better contact, and hitting with more power. Of course there are things he will need to work on, but for now if nothing else, he is hitting with more confidence, and I think that will help with his performance this season.

GFK

01-02-2008, 07:40 AM

I've been lurking for a long time.

Wanted to post many times but couldn't get up the nerve.

4x4....

You are annoying.

People in here sharing ideas and all you do is pick.

Got any of your own to share?

I'll leave now.

Hell, why leave, you just got here! The crap that goes on in some of these forums is completely counterproductive. This post is one of those counterproductive posts. StevieBaseball states "I've been lurking for a long time" but yet his "Join Date" shows Jan 2008!

Jake, I see you pulled this troll's post after I replied. Please pull down my response when you get a chance. Thanks!