Board Member's Box

[mbs]

Board Member-
"Boxes" come in all shapes and sizes.-They really have no specific geometric shape-. Any 4 sides, at any degree of angle.

Based on your definition I can show (on video mind you) that a monkey swinging on a vine is maintaining the box….

Your box has 4 sides.

1. Forearm
2. Bicep
3. shoulder line
4. Back shoulder to wrist

You are just connecting the dots and saying the box is maintained…


BM-The bottom line is IT (the box) IS THERE to some degree, ALWAYS.

I agree if you mean you can ALWAYS connect the dots from joint to joint..---Based on your definition, the box is there with 180 deg of extension and completely flat bat drag…As a matter of fact your box can be maintained with complete supination of the top hand…


We all know that “maintenance of the box” is slave to the bend in the lead arm. That is where those who coach the box focus their efforts and the angle at the elbow is the only relevant angle here. The other angles created by this ever-changing shape provide no feedback at all…If they do please enlighten me…

Please tell me BM what do the other 3 angles tell us about Clark’s swing here….If you can’t give an answer then get rid of the upper 2 sides of your geometric shape and focus on the lead arm….or just say “it’s a visual cue and the other sides mean nothing---the lead arm position is the only relevant thing here…”


So the box is nothing more than a bad coaching cue used by misinformed coaches to prevent/limit lead-arm extension…. That’s it…Some coach bent his elbow 90 degrees, looked down, and saw that his hand aligned with his back shoulder and said: “HEY a Box!!!! A great visual tool to help my hitters stop extending!!!!” And thus the box was born…




BM-Arm bar (along with drag) is the number one swing flaw I see in youth hitters over my 25 years of teaching hitting.

I don’t like arm bar or drag, but the top two swing flaws are taught to kids by bad instruction:
1. squish the bug/ spin/turn
2. hands to the ball/shortest path/rigid box (box-also promote spin-locked up upper body)



BM-Lead arm extension, done correctly without bar, does not eliminate the box:


Based on your definition, NOTHING CAN!
(BM-“The bottom line is IT (the box) IS THERE to some degree, ALWAYS.)


See..always there...



BM-IF you've worked with younger hitters at all, you realize that the first thing they want to do is "extend" the lead arm back to power the swing.

Yep-natural move….



BM-IF you insist on Box Maintenance during this move (and until the hands leave the shoulders), you allow lead arm extension to happen naturally, while PREVENTING arm bar.

I don’t see Clark “maintaining” anything, in terms of your box, on this swing. I see an object in a constant state of flux…


“Insisting” on “MAINTAINING the BOX” conveys a message of rigid alignment of those angles to the player…I’ve seen it many many times….



BM-Box maintenance also CAN serve to mitigate other flaws as well, namely:Casting, Parallel extension into contact (early straighten of the rear arm), Early Disconnection and more.



All while disrupting stretch-reflex and momentum transfer….Better to use relaxed natural moves That promote “whip”. Yeager is right—keeping the top hand from going palm up too soon will prevent all of that…A little barrel loading will help with this…..

The natural move is to allow the hand to reach back naturally during the stride while preventing the top hand from going palm-up (this is the cause of your arm bar and casting)….

I’m not sure what degree of flexion you are allowing BM, and I bet if they reach way back (like Clark) and keep the top hand from supinating in the stride (like Clark), you leave them alone -----God I hope you do….

[mbs]

Teaching Clark -or the following- to unnaturally maintain the box or keep the front arm bent would have ruined many careers.:
(Again, natural flexion in the lead arm is fine, but it should not be forced (Taught) teaching flexion in the lead arm is teaching and ingraining a lower level pattern)



Ruth
Geherig
Cobb
Jimmy Foxx
Dimaggio
Stan Musial
Killabrew
Lazzeri
Ted Williams
Clemente
Mantle
Aaron
Lou Brock
Yaz
Mel Ott
Griffey
Schmidt
Reggie Jackson
Bench
Dave Winfield
Carew
Frank Thomas
Boggs
Fielder
Strawberry
Ventura
Thome
Giambi
Bagwell
Palmiero
Manny
Garciaparra
McGwire
Sosa
Bonds
R Howard
Belle
Fr Robinson
L Berkman
E Chavez
Piazza
Joe Carter
Edmonds
The Giles brothers
Boone
Larry Walker

And on and on and on……………

[mbs]

BoardMember's Indestructible Box

[Jake Patterson]

BoardMember's Indestructible Box

How you see is much different than how others see it.

What is the real discussion here?

There is no box? Ever?
There is only a triangle?
The box turns to a triangle?
The box does not allow you to disconnect?
What?

[Go Cardinals]

...............

[chesspirate]

Please review the Double Pendulum.
http://www.maths.tcd.ie/~plynch/SwingingSpring/doublependulum.html

[dannyboy]

Please review the Double Pendulum.
http://mysite.verizon.net/vzep5xd2/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/DoublePendulum.gif

[XV84]

Using the box doesn't make sense because there is a 5th joint being ignored. Might as well use a pentagon.

[LClifton]

Please review the Double Pendulum.
http://mysite.verizon.net/vzep5xd2/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/DoublePendulum.gif
I will need some serious study time on this one Ray. Could take several days.

[BoardMember]

MBS, I can see you've put a lot of thought into your post.

Keep in mind that the title of the thread which I posted in your quotes was:

The Triangle vs. The Box.

My posts were my views of why I like the box analogy better then the triangle analogy. I never said I thought YOUR VIEWS were out of line, so I'm not quite sure where your coming from. However..............

Rather then "refute" every point on something you've taken so much time to explain, lets just look at these things to start. I hope is doesn't pop your bubble or take the passion out of your sails:

1.)
MBS and 5, here it is in a nut shell:.......To me, box maintainence IS required to prevent arm bar.

2.) Based on your statement:
Based on your definition, the box is there with 180 deg of extension

Please draw "my box" on this hitter:



Oh you can't? Ok then, please draw "my box" on this hitter:



How many more examples of arm bar would you like to try and draw my box on?

The above are just 2 of thousands of examples of "my box" being destroyed.

So you see mbs, your statements about "my box" being "indestuctable" are totally fabricated and false.

3.) Did you forget about the following exchange?:


BM-
With all due respect, I believe you are making a mistake to ask the player to maintain a sharp angle in the lead arm...The Kinetic link will suffer...

And my reply:


Your statement above has never come from my mouth (keyboard).

I advocate lead arm extension. Did you not read the thread with SB regarding this? You know, the one where he says the hands move back just not by way of the arms? LOL! You know, the thing he says happens from "the transfer"? LOL

However, maintaining an amount of flexsion in the extension is an absolute. Period.....to allow for adjustment.

THIS HAS ALWAYS BEEN MY STANCE IN EVERY THREAD regarding this subject.

I also believe (see) that with this flexsion (that varies greatly from hitter to hitter), a box that is maintained until the hands release from the shoulder.

Video (and experience) is on my side regarding this.......It's not an arguing point IMO......

And last I'll address this with my time alloted for Xmas Eve:


Board Member-

Based on your definition I can show (on video mind you) that a monkey swinging on a vine is maintaining the box….

Your box has 4 sides.

1. Forearm
2. Bicep
3. shoulder line
4. Back shoulder to wrist

You are just connecting the dots and saying the box is maintained…

Is this really true MBS? Or is it just your passion to be right causing you to not see the forest through the trees?

If you eliminate the angles (or sides) created by forearm and bicep flexion, you've eliminated (destroyed) "the box".

I don't really know what else you don't understand or agree with.

I'll be happy to address them tomorrow if you like, just post and ask.

Merry Christmas! :rolleyes:

More below....................

[BoardMember]

mbs, I don't feel I'm qualified to coach at the level these guys are playing so you don't have to worry about it.

Apperantly, you feel you are?.......:bowdown:


Teaching Clark -or the following- to unnaturally maintain the box or keep the front arm bent would have ruined many careers.:
(Again, natural flexion in the lead arm is fine, but it should not be forced (Taught) teaching flexion in the lead arm is teaching and ingraining a lower level pattern)



Ruth
Geherig
Cobb
Jimmy Foxx
Dimaggio
Stan Musial
Killabrew
Lazzeri
Ted Williams
Clemente
Mantle
Aaron
Lou Brock
Yaz
Mel Ott
Griffey
Schmidt
Reggie Jackson
Bench
Dave Winfield
Carew
Frank Thomas
Boggs
Fielder
Strawberry
Ventura
Thome
Giambi
Bagwell
Palmiero
Manny
Garciaparra
McGwire
Sosa
Bonds
R Howard
Belle
Fr Robinson
L Berkman
E Chavez
Piazza
Joe Carter
Edmonds
The Giles brothers
Boone
Larry Walker

And on and on and on……………

[BoardMember]

BoardMember's Indestructible Box

BoardMember's Indestructible Box Completly Destroyed..............

[BoardMember]

Some more for your review:


I don’t see Clark “maintaining” anything, in terms of your box, on this swing. I see an object in a constant state of flux…

So you do see an object eh? What object do you see? A car? A train? A toothpick? Well I see a "box".

Your quote is more accurately stated as: "an object in a constant state of flux with 4 discernable sides, losely defined in geometric terms as "a box" in 2 dimensions.

One could call them quadrilaterals (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quadrilateral) but I doubt a student would understand this concept when explained.

Now that we have that cleared up accurately, lets move on........


“Insisting” on “MAINTAINING the BOX” conveys a message of rigid alignment of those angles to the player…...

This could be true if the coach working with said players haven't been following the ORIGINAL THREAD: The Triangle vs The Box, or had no idea of the actual concept being conveyed. Which is it in your case?

Regardless, since it is "my box" as you've described it, and I do have a complete understanding of it's meaning, you really have nothing to worry about.

Let me know if you have any other concerns about "my box" and I'll be glad to clear things up. :thumbsup:

BTW, I'm honored to have my own thread!

Maybe you can have your own thread about teaching "lead arm extension" and the possible consequences of someone using this cue who has NO IDEA about its concept. I'm not saying you don't. I'm using the same analogy you do regarding the possible conseqences of BAD COACHING.

Namely:
Arm Bar and Bat Drag from Early Supination of the rear forearm as the hands move uncontrolled to far behind the rear elbow, and on and on and on.......Slow Bat Speed, Disconnection, Trapping, etc. etc..........

After all, it would be the same thing as this thread topic now wouldn't it? After all, you could say a "monkey swinging from branch to branch has lead arm extension".....LOL! :rolleyes:

Best regards.......And Happy Holidays!

[BoardMember]

Quote clarified for it's true content....:thumbsup::

mbs showed this:

The bottom line is IT (the box) IS THERE to some degree, ALWAYS.)

The complete context:

There are MLB swings showing Box Maintainence from Load to Contact, as well as load to release.

The bottom line is IT IS THERE to some degree, ALWAYS. (as regards the MLB swing noted above)

Even on the most "extended" hitters, as noted above.....(RE Clark Gif Shown)

Sorry mbs, but I don't want anyone to think your setting up your argument under false context........

[BoardMember]

And finally:


Please tell me BM what do the other 3 angles tell us about Clark’s swing here….If you can’t give an answer then get rid of the upper 2 sides of your geometric shape and focus on the lead arm….or just say “it’s a visual cue and the other sides mean nothing---the lead arm position is the only relevant thing here…”

And if I can will you eat your hat for Christmas? LOL!

Ok good, cause it's really simple:



Line 1 is the reference line about which the arms/hands are measured. IE in/out, forward/back. So it is nessessary for it's reference to the box.

Line 2, the one causing you (and Richard) the most pain IMO, is a "trap" reference. Assuming you understand what happens when the hands are trapped behind the shoulders, this line, when showing an angle from the rear shoulder to the hands insures the hands are NOT trapped.

If the hands were trapped behind the rear shoulder, which CAN happen when young hitters extend the rear hand back TO FAR and start the shoulder turning (also a cause of arm bar), LINE 2 WOULD SHOW NO ANGLE and remain IN LINE 1.

Boy I bet line 2 just killed you eh?

See if you can see who's hands are trapped in the vid below. One's hands accelerate past the shoulders and the others doesn't. And see if you can understand how the hands trapped in the shoulder line would eliminate line 2 and destroy the "indestuctable box":



And of course line 3 and 4 are your favorite lines and are obviously for lead arm flexion..........

In conclusion mbs, yes, there is a box. And it IS a great tool for many reasons.......:thumbsup:

I hope you like your hats "well done".........

Thx again for the opportunity!

Now, shall we get your thread started?????? :thumbsup:

How about we start with this:

Did Yeager really say "don't maintain the box" in those exact words? I don't have his DVD's so I wouldn't know........

[Coach C]

My son attended a clinic over the weekend near Atlanta. Maintaining The Box was talked about constantly by the instructors..which included, four active mlb players and three active mlb scouts.

[JK-CA]

The "box" is a teaching tool - it shouldn't be an academic exercise.

When working with hitters, I think it's a great concept to help with "connected rotation"

I really hope this isn't your best argument.

[wogdoggy]

The "box" is a teaching tool - it shouldn't be an academic exercise.

When working with hitters, I think it's a great concept to help with "connected rotation"

I really hope this isn't your best argument.



I think its a horrible teach..kids take it the wrong way and tend to hit wit alligator arms while cheating themselves of the power the arms and wrists add..just dont like it with young kids...:twocents:

[RayR]

I think its a horrible teach..kids take it the wrong way and tend to hit wit alligator arms while cheating themselves of the power the arms and wrists add..just dont like it with young kids...:twocents:


It's been my experience that "alligator arms" is exactly what most, if not all kids need to get into their swing. They already cast, extend, arm swing, bat drag just fine...Hey, I know it works in LL, but it ain't getting done in higher leagues.

[wogdoggy]

It's been my experience that "alligator arms" is exactly what most, if not all kids need to get into their swing. They already cast, extend, arm swing, bat drag just fine...Hey, I know it works in LL, but it ain't getting done in higher leagues.

I also believes it limits a kids atletic abilty and potential for a smoot effortless swing..I also feel that it prohibits the ability to hit a ball sweet..but again thats just my take..:twocents:

[Jake Patterson]

I think its a horrible teach..kids take it the wrong way and tend to hit wit alligator arms while cheating themselves of the power the arms and wrists add..just dont like it with young kids...:twocents:

Wog it depends on the way in which you explain it and how the subsequent steps are taught. I use it in the first few clicks of the swing and have had no problems.

[Jake Patterson]

The "box" is a teaching tool - it shouldn't be an academic exercise. .

Good post.
we sometimes stand in minutea up to our necks while the kids we teach drown.

[BoardMember]

Good post.
we sometimes stand in minutea up to our necks while the kids we teach drown.

Yes well that's true with every aspect of hitting now isn't it.

"The Box" is NOT a system. What blows me away is how many people view "the box" as a hitting system from setup to contact. This couldn't be further from the truth.

It is merely a "que", and when used properly is a very simple concept for hitters to "see" and understand........

[callyjr]

Are you guys for real, you can tell we are in the off season. Were talking about a box and a triangle. Do your kids get to watch video of themselves? If not why talk box or triangle, then cannot tell if they have a box or triangle so why confuse them. Epstein likes to talk about the power V out in front so I guess he likes the triangle, but never once mentions in a training session. I think you guys might be bored huh?

Merry Christmas to all.

Cally

[BoardMember]

Do your kids get to watch video of themselves?

Not only do my hitters watch video of themselves, they watch video's of MLB hitters (shown with a box in some cases), and comparisons of themselves and MLB's in side-by-sides.

As far as the power V, we're basically talking load to contact Caly.

Hope ur having a great Holiday! :waving

[Jake Patterson]

"The Box" is NOT a system. What blows me away is how many people view "the box" as a hitting system from setup to contact. This couldn't be further from the truth.

It is merely a "que", and when used properly is a very simple concept for hitters to "see" and understand........
I use it as a que. I don't know of any one that has stated maintain the box through the "entire" swing.

[BoardMember]

I use it as a que. I don't know of any one that has stated maintain the box through the "entire" swing.

I do. His name is Richard.........:waving

[Jake Patterson]

I do. His name is Richard.........:waving
Board,

The problem is the confusion caused by implying statements that simply are not true (Not implying you are doing this). Show me a statement that says "maintain the box through the entire swing?"

Too many "wanna be" coaches and "I should have had a chance" ex-players in this game are more concerned with proving themselves right or others wrong than they are affecting any meaningful way in which we train youngsters. Everytime someone picks up the gauntlet and tries to move the game ahead the second tier instructors come out of the woodwork and like to show how little they know. Or how much they know(?) at the expense of creating a sound learning environment.

In the mean time the professional coaches (At least all who I have spoken with) sit there and shake their heads over the foolishness that's generated on these sites.

I give guys who truly study the game (especially those who work hard at obtaining credentials) a lot of credit. Right or wrong they share a common thread. One not shared by those whose only outlet is to snipe here in E-world.

[BoardMember]

Board,

The problem is the confusion caused by implying statements that simply are not true (Not implying you are doing this). Show me a statement that says "maintain the box through the entire swing?"

Which has been my point all along.......I never got an answer from all the "Yeager" guru's if he ever really said: "Don't maintain the box"...at all.....ever.......

I'm assuming the answer is a resounding NO.......


Too many "wanna be" coaches and "I should have had a chance" ex-players in this game are more concerned with proving themselves right or others wrong than they are affecting any meaningful way in which we train youngsters. Everytime someone picks up the gauntlet and tries to move the game ahead the second tier instructors come out of the woodwork and like to show how little they know. Or how much they know(?) at the expense of creating a sound learning environment.

In the mean time the professional coaches (At least all who I have spoken with) sit there and shake their heads over the foolishness that's generated on these sites.

I give guys who truly study the game (especially those who work hard at obtaining credentials) a lot of credit. Right or wrong they share a common thread. One not shared by those whose only outlet is to snipe here in E-world.

I agree 1000% ..........

Happy Holidays!:clapping

[mbs]

When I asked you what the other 3 angles told us about the swing, I hoped you would see their irrelevance, admit I was right and go spend some time with your family. But instead you took the bait and spent your Christmas coming up with this:

BOARDMEMBER:

BM-“If the hands were trapped behind the rear shoulder, (also a cause of arm bar), LINE 2 WOULD SHOW NO ANGLE and remain IN LINE 1.”




BM-Line 2 is a "trap" reference. Assuming you understand what happens when the hands are trapped behind the shoulders, this line, when showing an angle from the rear shoulder to the hands insures the hands are NOT trapped.

BM-See if you can see who's hands are trapped in the vid below. One's hands accelerate past the shoulders and the others doesn't. And see if you can understand how the hands trapped in the shoulder line would eliminate line 2 and destroy the "indestructable box":

See how “LINE 2 SHOWs NO ANGLE and remains IN LINE 1” on these poor hitters. How sad…Their “hands accelerated past their shoulders and their hands are now TRAPPED in the SHOULDER LINE”-BoardMember


Help these hitters (Clark appears to be ok... whew!)BM-they are “trapped”-they will never reach their potential without your box!!!!!

[Jake Patterson]

This does not form a box??

[jima]

snoozer..........

[mbs]

So as everyone can see, the line of your box from the back shoulder to the bottom hand gives us no reliable information for video analysis and more importantly, it gives the player no quality information as it relates to the hands and shoulder.


The other 2 angles created by the 2 two upper lines in give us no reliable info either.. Or do you want to try again????

[mbs]

If the lead arm extends as the body shifts, the player will lose all reference to a box and the top two “sides” of the box are meaningless in terms of “maintaining the box”.

If the hitter attempts to hold the sharp angle in the lead arm then box-maintenance can be visualized by the player. As bad as it is, a player can see this and feel it…It works too…Lots of players have had their natural tendency to create stretch ruined with the box…

For a cue to work, the player must be able to relate to it. Players and nearly everyone else for that matter (besides BM), visualize a box as either a square or a rectangle. Once that lead arm extends, the player will lose all reference to a box.

I gotta see BM bring a hitter to a position like Clark or any of the other pros at foot plant and ask the to visualize their box…Now that’s a tough teach…

So if the hitter uses natural extension, the top two sides of the box become irrelevant-just focus on the position of the lead arm BM..

[Jake Patterson]

Or do you want to try again????
No I'm Good... The answer to the question can only be yes or no.

[mbs]

Speaking of the lead arm…..BM you showed a couple of armatures with what you claim was 180 deg of extension—you made your “sides” disappear and said that this violated your box….
What if the sides were more visible say at 175 degrees????. What does the box tell you then???

Based on your definition, the sides of the box are still there…Your ever-changing box is intact--BM “with 4 discernable sides, loosely defined in geometric terms as "a box" in 2 dimensions”.



Point is, just because 4 sides are visible, that doesn’t mean that the player is doing anything correctly or incorrectly for that matter…... And box maintenance, means nothing…

[Jake Patterson]

For a cue to work, the player must be able to relate to it. Players and nearly everyone else for that matter (besides BM), visualize a box as either a square or a rectangle. Once that lead arm extends, the player will lose all reference to a box.


Players I have taugh have no problem "relating" to it. You presume the box is maintained through the entire swing. Again, I'll ask show me who suggests this...

[mbs]

BM-shows box well after footplant....


The box, as used by BoardMember and more strictly by others, is a coaching cue used prevent/limit lead-arm extension….I think this is agreed upon.

The box is a bad cue because:
In the high level pattern, lead arm extension should be relaxed and happen naturally. Hand position (no- premature supination and Height) (with barrel load) will take care of arm bar and drag----from Yeager.




The box gives us NO reliable/usable info---the lead arm position does….

[Lady_Knights]

I'm late getting in on this, and don't care to read thru all the rest of the other meaningless posts to get caught up, so excuse me if I'm a little off.

I have always believed the box to be, from left shoulder to right shoulder, right shoulder to right elbow, right elbow to left elbow, then left elbow to left shoulder, the hands were never part of the box, like in the mbs pics.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

[Jake Patterson]

"Box" again is only a cue. Teaching a 12-y/o to maintain the 4-sided polygon, or the rhombus or trapezoid just doesn't ring well.

[mbs]

"Box" again is only a cue. Teaching a 12-y/o to maintain the 4-sided polygon, or the rhombus or trapezoid just doesn't ring well.

yep..and I repeat:


The box, as used by BoardMember and more strictly by others, is a coaching cue used prevent/limit lead-arm extension….I think this is agreed upon.

The box is a bad cue because:
In the high level pattern, lead arm extension should be relaxed and happen naturally. Hand position (no- premature supination and Height) (with barrel load) will take care of arm bar and drag----from Yeager.

[Jake Patterson]

I'm late getting in on this, and don't care to read thru all the rest of the other meaningless posts to get caught up, so excuse me if I'm a little off.

I have always believed the box to be, from left shoulder to right shoulder, right shoulder to right elbow, right elbow to left elbow, then left elbow to left shoulder, the hands were never part of the box, like in the mbs pics.

Correct me if I'm wrong. The only thing I would add when teaching some youngsters is the bat can form one side of the box as a starting cue.

[CoachB25]

MBS, are you saying that you could not make the same argument for a "box" if that were your agenda in the pictures posted? You chose elbow, lead shoulder and hands. I can see points where you could include lines along the shoulders and then to the hands in those pics as well.

This gets back to the point I made several weeks ago. Any poster can make virtually any point that they wish when taking pictures, or video for that matter, and drawing lines that fit their arguments. I have RVP and could draw those boxes. However, what's the point. Triangles have been drawn demonstrating some of the worse positions possible in the swing. Boxes are not rigid as Jake pointed out. They never have been in anyone's definition. Most if not all know that. I doubt very seriously if there are hitters "ruined" by a box analogy. Hey, If a triangle works for you, then enjoy. (Now what type of triangle was it? If it were a right triangle then I need to...)

Why do phrases such as "took the bait" sound so familiar?

[mbs]

Nope-no fan of the triangle either....Just showing the idiocy of the box..In fact if you have read at all, I made it clear that the upper sides have no relevance in terms of trying to maintain anything in terms of a 2-D shape...The triangle is a joke as well...


You chose elbow, lead shoulder and hands.

These were the lines chosen by BoardMember....


Short version:

The box, as used by BoardMember and more strictly by others, is a coaching cue used prevent/limit lead-arm extension….I think this is agreed upon.

The box is a bad cue because:
In the high level pattern, lead arm extension should be relaxed and happen naturally. Hand position (no- premature supination and Height) (with barrel load) will take care of arm bar and drag----from Yeager.


So as everyone can see, the line of your box from the back shoulder to the bottom hand gives us no reliable information for video analysis and more importantly, it gives the player no quality information as it relates to the hands and shoulder.


The other 2 angles created by the 2 two upper lines in give us no reliable info either.. Or do you want to try again????

[CoachB25]

mbs, if not fan of triangle or box, then what?

[Jake Patterson]

mbs, if not fan of triangle or box, then what?

MBS - tell us how you would go about teaching this. We now know what you don't see as a reasonable que or technique.

[mbs]

Jake Patterson:

Too many "wanna be" coaches and "I should have had a chance" ex-players in this game are more concerned with proving themselves right or others wrong than they are affecting any meaningful way in which we train youngsters….at the expense of creating a sound learning environment

Jake-Based on recent posts, I can only assume that that was directed at me.

Well you are on record as a proponent of the two worst coaching cues:
Squish the bug
Maintain the box

A BoardMember player is doing both here:
http://www.youtube.com/v/ZU6NU_BIudM

not to mention the “step on thin ice” move he is using….

What you call “to move the game ahead” I call moving it backward..Find me a MLBer pre-1985 doing any of that crap….

I am honestly trying to help people avoid bad drills such as bug-ice-box..

You disagree-fine…IMO they would be better off on their own rather than learning those bad drills…Bad coaching is worse than no-coaching…


As far as “professional coaches sit(ing) there and shak(ing) their heads over the foolishness that's generated on these sites.”

Well If they weren’t learning, they wouldn’t be coming back…

Boardmember:

Which has been my point all along.......I never got an answer from all the "Yeager" guru's if he ever really said: "Don't maintain the box"...at all.....ever.......

I'm assuming the answer is a resounding NO.......

Yeager never mentioned the box at all—He discusses the lead arm quite a bit…To allow the arm to gain extension as a result of the “push-forward” (weight shift) and the hands reaching back. He uses barrel loading as a technique to help prevent the wrists from un-cocking and the top-hand from supinating too soon---his main cause of drag and lockout..

He repeatedly states that the lead-arm extension should be relaxed and not locked-out…Hand height is also an important factor for Yeager…Amazing how difficult it is to arm-bar with high hands(shoulder height) and a barrel loading top hand….

[Jake Patterson]

Jake Patterson: Jake-Based on recent posts, I can only assume that that was directed at me. No that was directed to exactly those mentioned in the post.

Well you are on record as a proponent of the two worst coaching cues:
Squish the bug
Maintain the box

Ah ... No on both.

I use the box as a starting cue and I do not teach squish the bug.

[Jake Patterson]

As far as “professional coaches sit(ing) there and shak(ing) their heads over the foolishness that's generated on these sites.”

Well If they weren’t learning, they wouldn’t be coming back…

The professional coaches I speak of do not frequent these sites. Come to the World Baseball Convention and ask for yourself. Most of the clinicians are very available.

[JJA]

Wow, those series of photos have to be the worst sequence of baseball photo analyses I've ever seen. Every one of the photos can be modified like Jake did on Pujols to yield a box. They look nothing like the triangles that BoardMember posted earlier of young players barring their lead arm, yielding a true triangle.

To each his own I guess, but this is a great illustration of Nyman's adage that we can only see what we're capable of seeing. As long you're helping young players, that's all that counts. I hope you are.

-JJA

[mbs]

JJA:

They look nothing like the triangles that BoardMember posted earlier of young players barring their lead arm, yielding a true triangle.

Wow, those comments about this thread have to be the best example of someone commenting before they understand I've ever seen.

BM was commenting on the other two sides (not lead arm) of his box--and how BM wrote that if those sides aligned, the the player would be trapped..In essence these are examples of BoardMember's OTHER TRIANGLE....Read before you write....

JJA:

Every one of the photos can be modified like Jake did on Pujols to yield a box.

Not that I like triangles any more than boxes, but I'd like to see you try it....

[BoardMember]

There is no arguing with skewing information (or strawman arguments), unless you can show the falsehood, or expose the strawman. MBS, this is one of the worst attempts at skewing information I've ever seen.

You've completely (purposely) ommited the rear shoulder point of line 2 of "my box" which connect the rear shoulder to the hands, because exactly this reasons I've previously posted:

Line 2, the one causing you (and Richard) the most pain IMO, is a "trap" reference. Assuming you understand what happens when the hands are trapped behind the shoulders, this line, when showing an angle from the rear shoulder to the hands insures the hands are NOT trapped.

Consider it "my bad" for assuming you understood the meaning of Trapped Hands.

None of these hitters are trapped. None of them. The hands are NOT trapped directly behind the shoulder line, as I've shown using my reference lines 1 and 2 both here, and in my original post.







Like I said, I have no problem with your methods. You can see/teach anything you want. Including the triangle.

You asked for "references" to "my lines" and said they have no value. I've shown the both the references, and the value, and now proven they exist in your pics, and you can't handle it.

You said "my box" was indestuctable. I've shown clearly that it is. More then once, and you can't handle it.

I don't know what to tell you other then IF YOU DON'T WANT TO KNOW, DON'T ASK.

Bottom line: It is "my box" remember? And I've shown you what you asked for. You said I couldn't, and I did, and you can't handle it. Now you would attempt to skew "My Lines" to prove "My Box" doesn't exist?

The box is there unless you skew my reference lines to meet your agenda or the camera angle "hides" a reference line. In the words of your fearless leader, "Your agenda is something other then the truth". Mine is simply Teaching, and Searching for the Truth.

After viewing the pics you posted in rebutal, we have nothing more to discuss.

At least in this thread.............

Till Next Time! :waving


Wow, those series of photos have to be the worst sequence of baseball photo analyses I've ever seen. Every one of the photos can be modified like Jake did on Pujols to yield a box. They look nothing like the triangles that BoardMember posted earlier of young players barring their lead arm, yielding a true triangle.

To each his own I guess, but this is a great illustration of Nyman's adage that we can only see what we're capable of seeing. As long you're helping young players, that's all that counts. I hope you are.

-JJA

[BoardMember]

In review, I found this and will comment further:


Speaking of the lead arm…..BM you showed a couple of armatures with what you claim was 180 deg of extension—you made your “sides” disappear and said that this violated your box….
What if the sides were more visible say at 175 degrees????. What does the box tell you then???

It would tell me this:


MBS and 5, here it is in a nut shell:.......To me, box maintainence IS required to prevent arm bar.

Why did I need to repeat this a 5th time for you to read it?

IF there is 175 degrees of angle, there MIGHT be NO ARM BAR and I'd start elsewhere.


Point is, just because 4 sides are visible, that doesn’t mean that the player is doing anything correctly or incorrectly for that matter…... And box maintenance, means nothing…

This is absolutely false. If 4 sides are visable, THERE IS NO ARM BAR, and THERE IS NO TRAP.

Look, you've shown that in a "few cases" that certain camera angles can hide a visual reference line in the box. I won't argue that point. But it is in a very few cases, which is why it is a good visual que.

The bottom line is hiding a reference line due to a camera angle does not elimiate the box that is created, IF, there is flexion in the lead arm (lines 3-4), and the hands are not trapped (pushed to far/or allowed to drift to far) behind the rear shoulder during the load (lines 1-2).

What part of this can't you understand?.......

Here's your chance to add something meaningful to this "coaching forum".

Visually, how would you show a hitter that his hands are "being pushed, or drifting" to far behind the shoulders to effectively get back to contact both on time, or "not too extended" into contact.

Tell me and Show me. I'm listening..........and watching.

Anyone else feel free to share your methods as well.

I see this as a perfect que to correct the above stated problem:

[TDS]

So as everyone can see, the line of your box from the back shoulder to the bottom hand gives us no reliable information for video analysis and more importantly, it gives the player no quality information as it relates to the hands and shoulder.


mbs

Since hitting is about transferring momentum from body to bat, and if viewed from the ground up why would You want the hands and arms moving backaway from the body ? This is where I see the box being a good teach to make sure momentum is not leaked or lost behind You.

[Erik]

JayC,

would you like to comment or give your expert advice on the box? I can't wait to hear your thoughts.:rofl::rofl::rofl:



EL

[JayC]

Eric, Are you trying to start s_it by bringing me into this conversation again. Ecuse me who is the kid here. I don't talk about a box or triangle to my students . All the so called experts on this site can't agree on this subject so why would I want to confuse my kids . This is not something I feel you have to talk about with them . Let me guess EL you know exactly what goes on with the arms and I bet you talk ,talk , talk ,talk, to your students about it . A matter of fact I bet your students get tired of listening to you talk .

[Erik]

Eric, Are you trying to start s_it by bringing me into this conversation again. Ecuse me who is the kid here. I don't talk about a box or triangle to my students . All the so called experts on this site can't agree on this subject so why would I want to confuse my kids . This is not something I feel you have to talk about with them . Let me guess EL you know exactly what goes on with the arms and I bet you talk ,talk , talk ,talk, to your students about it . A matter of fact I bet your students get tired of listening to you talk .


JayC,

I didn't think you had anything of value to add. I would say your kids are confused enough by your own doing. I would bet they live in fear seeing the hostility you openly present on this discussion board. I would also guess you have constant battles with your players or kids. Most of the students I train appreciate having someone teach them. These players seem to take their game to a different level. The two way communicaion cycle is the best way to describe thoughts and evaluate their understanding to what is being taught. This I guess also isn't in your teaching. I teach players. I don't baby sit them. This isn't part of my program. What do you teach your players besides how to tie their shoes and be controled by fear, hostility, antagonism, anger, and unexpressed resentment toward instructors that do their jobs.



EL,

[JayC]

Eric if your so good how many highschool or college kids do you have and how are they performing . Do you have them knocking your door down trying to get in with you. So far you have showed us one oversized twelve year old playing with kids half his size . I would hope he would be productive even if my grandma showed him how to hit especially the way he looked befor you even got him . Please show us some stats of all your college kids or even highschool kids.What about the kid you raised his average 400 points lets see these stats .

Will you show these soon Eric !

[JeffK 29]

BM- I did not understand the box before reading this thread. Thanks for explaining what appears to be a nice simple que.

JK29

[Erik]

Eric if your so good how many highschool or college kids do you have and how are they performing . Do you have them knocking your door down trying to get in with you. So far you have showed us one oversized twelve year old playing with kids half his size . I would hope he would be productive even if my grandma showed him how to hit especially the way he looked befor you even got him . Please show us some stats of all your college kids or even highschool kids.What about the kid you raised his average 400 points lets see these stats .

Will you show these soon Eric !



JayC,

I have high school, college, and pro players. Look JayC I'm not interested in building my credibility. If this was my intention this would have been confronted by a number of individuals I now have communication cycles with. I know there are some pretty sharp minds on this board at times. I'm truly just trying to help players and coaches get a better understanding from my experience in the game of baseball. This does add value. I have been a hitter/instructor most of my entire life. I would say that my reality might be a little different than yours. I have tried a zillion of different things to find what works at high levels. Now please can you get some help?




EL,

[JayC]

That is what I predicted . NO Highshool kids NO College kids and no Stats .

[wogdoggy]

That is what I predicted . NO Highshool kids NO College kids and no Stats .

so whats the point?

[Erik]

That is what I predicted . NO Highshool kids NO College kids and no Stats .



JayC,

just say uncle! :bowdown::bowdown::bowdown::bowdown::bowdown::bowd own::bowdown::bowdown::


EL,:thumbsup:

[BoardMember]

Here's your chance to add something meaningful to this "coaching forum".

Visually, how would you show a hitter that his hands are "being pushed, or drifting" to far behind the shoulders to effectively get back to contact both on time, or "not too extended" to allow for adjustments into contact.

Tell me and Show me. I'm listening..........and watching.

I see this as a perfect que to correct the above stated problem:



I borrowed this clip from a good buddy of mine. Start with this. This is a typical "limber" youth executing YOUR "unchecked natural" lead arm extension:

Give me some "hitting lessons" with this kid.

Tell me how "keeping the hands at the shoulder" (which he already is) and barrel loading would fix this. You think a little tip of the barrel with the hands might help this problem? I doubt it very seriously.

I know a little better box maintainence would be a good starting point:

[Drill]

I borrowed this clip from a good buddy of mine. Start with this. This is a typical "limber" youth executing YOUR "unchecked natural" lead arm extension:

Give me some "hitting lessons" with this kid.

Tell me how "keeping the hands at the shoulder" (which he already is) and barrel loading would fix this. You think a little tip of the barrel with the hands might help? NO.

I know a little better box maintainence would be a good starting point:





I think the box or lead arm extension are a result of good and bad timing. My feeling are both are good swings. Now I guess the real question is bat speed. If you are late on a pitch a lead arm extension person would revert into a box with less bat speed and a box person would be out in front of the ball with a lead arm extension swing which to me I would guess would be pulling them down the line.

My question would be which is the best all around swing when it comes to game time. I mean i see Barry Bonds use both swings and can power them over the fence with just his timing on the ball be it inside or outside pitch. I really don't understand what the big deal is about the box and or lead arm extension when we see that both works. IMHO it comes down to knowing them both and using what fits you the best and what each individual person attributes are that they are blessed with.

I think knowing attributes of tipping the bat is good also, but again its up to what works the best for that individual

It says in so many words, that we are not to compare ourselves, because we are each given differant (blessed with) talented abilities that the other person may or may not have. Don't put yourself down by copying, use what is best for you. So why not know both styles of swing so you can come up with your own individual style.


respectfully yours,

drill

PS - I will not quote the Bible on this forum just because, each person has there own viewpoint on the book. If someone would like to pm me and ask for additional information about the downside of comparing ourselves to other people feel free to ask. I am not a religious fanatic, but I do use the Bible as a reference book for life.

[BoardMember]

You're welcome Jeff. The bolded part below pretty much says it all.

Best Regards.......


BM- I did not understand the box before reading this thread. Thanks for explaining what appears to be a nice simple que.

JK29

[BoardMember]

The point is drill, you CAN allow lead arm extension and STILL maintain a box so as to prevent against arm bar and a long sweeping or trapped swing.

Using a "triangle" as a que won't stop either of these swing flaws.........And could promote swing flaws that lead to a long, slow, sweeping and uncontrolable swing.

So the box is a flaw prevention/repair que. The triangle (as shown by msb) is does nothing but encourage young hitter to over-do something that comes natural.......

I'll stick with the "my box" for obvious reasons......


I think the box or lead arm extension are a result of good and bad timing. My feeling are both are good swings. Now I guess the real question is bat speed. If you are late on a pitch a lead arm extension person would revert into a box with less bat speed and a box person would be out in front of the ball with a lead arm extension swing which to me I would guess would be pulling them down the line.

My question would be which is the best all around swing when it comes to game time. I mean i see Barry Bonds use both swings and can power them over the fence with just his timing on the ball be it inside or outside pitch. I really don't understand what the big deal is about the box and or lead arm extension when we see that both works. IMHO it comes down to knowing them both and using what fits you the best and what each individual person attributes are that they are blessed with.

I think knowing attributes of tipping the bat is good also, but again its up to what works the best for that individual

It says in so many words, that we are not to compare ourselves, because we are each given differant (blessed with) talented abilities that the other person may or may not have. Don't put yourself down by copying, use what is best for you. So why not know both styles of swing so you can come up with your own individual style.


respectfully yours,

drill

PS - I will not quote the Bible on this forum just because, each person has there own viewpoint on the book. If someone would like to pm me and ask for additional information about the downside of comparing ourselves to other people feel free to ask. I am not a religious fanatic, but I do use the Bible as a reference book for life.

[CoachB25]

BM, in referencing the "box," I remember the first time I was introduced to the concept. I was working a camp in 1985 and a HS coach who went on to win some 600+ games, a few state championships ... listened to me coaching a bunch of younger players at the clinic. I always tried to break stuff down and so, I had the younger players take their index finger (top hand) and put it at chin height. Then, I had them move their hands back to a position just off of the shoulder. This coach asked me if I meant arm pit or outside back portion of the shoulder or... He caught me off guard. He asked me if a "box" was formed at the approximate spot I wanted the players to stop moving the hands back. Yup! I still rarely mention a "box" but I do see the validity of that as a teaching tool. JMHO!

BM, also, congratulations on the success you've had. I was reading another message board earlier today and noticed how well you've done.

[BoardMember]

also, congratulations on the success you've had. I was reading another message board earlier today and noticed how well you've done.

Thx a bunch Coach. I've been forturnate to have been able to help so many kids I've worked with realize their dreams. Believe me, after 20 years, and through much trial and error, AND OBJECTIVENESS, I learned to accept change, and adopt things that worked for my students.

"The Box" has been one of them. When I saw Booth's little pipe alignment tool, and how it showed a box, it reafirmed my thinking of why I've had so much success.

Best Regards........

[dannyboy]

[BoardMember]

Good Ray, thx.

There is no decernable box at the start of the swing. Looks more like a "V".

Even more important, this kid starts with the same approx. triangle shown on a few MLB's from mbs. However, it sure doesn't progress the same as they do.

Tell me how you would "coach" this kid to put him in a better position at launch.

[dannyboy]

wouldn't even try without several game swings. got any?

[BoardMember]

No sorry, isn't my hitter. I borrowed the clip to show that starting postion you marked up.




wouldn't even try without several game swings. got any?

[Hard Liner]

Not arguing, just trying to understand.

In regard to the boxes drawn on the kid and the mlb player above, my thought process starts like this: There's not much difference in lead arm extension so how can the box look so much different? Get the kid to lean over like the player so you can see more down on the box and, voila, more box. Probably not as much, but much more. The viewing angle difference diminishes the value of the drawings, imo.

Any comments about the boxes on these photos of Gehrig, Greenberg, and Williams? What about those bottom elbows?

[XV84]

mbs

Since hitting is about transferring momentum from body to bat, and if viewed from the ground up why would You want the hands and arms moving backaway from the body ? This is where I see the box being a good teach to make sure momentum is not leaked or lost behind You.

Bat lag is the reason you want the hands to move back away from the body. It's just like like in high-velocity pitchers when the throwing arm externally rotates. If you look at high-level hitters and high-velocity pitchers, the front foot landing coincides with the external rotation of the tophand/throwingarm.

[BoardMember]

Not arguing, just trying to understand.

There's not much difference in lead arm extension so how can the box look so much different?

On Film? The amount of flexion in a particular swing and camera angles.


Get the kid to lean over like the player so you can see more down on the box and, voila, more box.

In other words, Regarding MLB swings:

The bottom line is IT (the box) IS THERE to some degree, ALWAYS. .


Any comments about the boxes on these photos of Gehrig, Greenberg, and Williams? What about those bottom elbows?







Yes, I have a comment, although a bit sarcastic, you'll get the point.

We used to crap in toilets like this around the same period of time. They were the "best of their time".

Evolution has changed a lot of things for the better:



These guys were the best hitters OF THEIR DAY. Self-Taught.

You can't expect us to keep crapping in those old toilets forever I hope, given the evolution of today's toilet flushing technology.

EFFICIENCY IS THE KEY IN BOTH SENARIOS IMO.

[Jake Patterson]

Not arguing, just trying to understand.

In regard to the boxes drawn on the kid and the mlb player above, my thought process starts like this: There's not much difference in lead arm extension so how can the box look so much different? Get the kid to lean over like the player so you can see more down on the box and, voila, more box. Probably not as much, but much more. The viewing angle difference diminishes the value of the drawings, imo.

Any comments about the boxes on these photos of Gehrig, Greenberg, and Williams? What about those bottom elbows?







Difficult to make any comments as we really don't know if these are game time swings or if the players are swinging for photos.

[mbs]

Yes, I have a comment, although a bit sarcastic, you'll get the point.

point being that your new evolved way is better??????


:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::


Ah ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!!!!!!!!!!

You really believe that your "box" would have made Gehrig, Greenberg, Ruth, Williams, Aaron and on and on better????????????????????

BTW the clips of today's players look exactly the same with regards to lead arm extension......More later......

wow BM you should have stopped a long time a go---you have really dug your self a hole now...You have been exposed---by the greats of the past...I'd love to have seen you teach that to Williams--maybe he could have had this bug-squishin' box swing himself....Ruth and Aaron too!!!!!!:rofl::rofl::

A BoardMember player is doing both here:
http://www.youtube.com/v/ZU6NU_BIudM

more later......:rofl::rofl:

[CoachB25]

Come on, none of those swings are game swings. They aren't batting practice swings. Even back then, they had cages and used them. JMO, those are photo opp swings for reasons unknown.

[Jake Patterson]

mbs,
I asked before but have yet to receive a reply. How do you teach and what do you use as ques?

[FiveFrameSwing]

So as everyone can see, the line of your box from the back shoulder to the bottom hand gives us no reliable information for video analysis and more importantly, it gives the player no quality information as it relates to the hands and shoulder.


The other 2 angles created by the 2 two upper lines in give us no reliable info either.. Or do you want to try again????

When I view the above triangles it seems to make it clear that the lead-arm serves as the main lever.

[... unfortunately the photos did not copy ... see MBS's earlier post]

[FiveFrameSwing]

I know a little better box maintainence would be a good starting point:



I believe the "bat drag" issue above could be easily cleared up with proper top hand/forearm action. I believe your assessment is that establishing a "box" can correct this as well. While that isn't the approach I use to correct "bat drag" I do respect that it is your approach.

[Jake Patterson]

I believe the "bat drag" issue above could be easily cleared up with proper top hand/forearm action. I believe your assessment is that establishing a "box" can correct this as well. While that isn't the approach I use to correct "bat drag" I do respect that it is your approach.

can you further explain how you would correct this? I see this has a very common problem among youngsters.
Jake

[Coach C]

"The Box" has been one of them. When I saw Booth's little pipe alignment tool, and how it showed a box, it reafirmed my thinking of why I've had so much success. ........

BM, I made something for my son out of PVC to help him with the box concept, which worked like a charm for him. Does Mr. Booth's pipe tool look like a lopsided "T" ? Thanks.

[Jake Patterson]

BM, I made something for my son out of PVC to help him with the box concept, which worked like a charm for him. Does Mr. Booth's pipe tool look like a lopsided "T" ? Thanks.

Yes,
PM Jim - I am certain he will send you a pic.
Jake

[Coach C]

Yes,
PM Jim - I am certain he will send you a pic.
Jake

Thank you Sir.

[BoardMember]

MBS, you need to get off your horse. It sounds like this "Box" thing is starting to become personal to you. What a joke. That in itself says a lot about your character. Your arrogance and need to be right is getting ugly.

It's a que. FOR CERTAIN SWING FLAWS. AND IT WORKS.


You really believe that your "box" would have made Gehrig, Greenberg, Ruth, Williams, Aaron and on and on better????????????????????

Well I guess that would depend on how their swings looked when they were 9 or 10 years old??...........

You, (and Richard for that matter), spend a hell of a lot telling coaches like me that we couldn't make THE BEST IN THE GAME better. I have no time for such nonsense. It is a strawman, and just plain ignorant.

It sounds like you would like to stand on your "lead arm extension" as why these guys are the best. "Just extend that arm and you'll hit like the Babe!" Well I got news for ya buddy, YOU ARE DEAD WRONG.

Moving on.......

Yes, the game, and the swing have evolved light-years from yester-year. You are living in a cave IMO trying to compare the majority of today's hitters with those of years past.

How heavy is Barry's bat? Why?

Put this piece of lumber in Bonds, ARod or most other hitters of this day and age hands, and watch the entire swing change:



Longer, more sweeping swings were the norm moving that size lumber. Sure, they could hit. They were tremendous atheletes.


BTW the clips of today's players look exactly the same with regards to lead arm extension......More later......

If you are trying to tell this board that the swings posted by Hard Liner look JUST LIKE ALL the hitters of today, you're just full of crap. Lead arm extension might in some cases, but I believe it was "excentuated" by the shear weight of the lumber they were swinging. YES mbs, the swing has evolved light years from the 20's, 30's and 40's.

Sure, Williams swing looked close to Bonds in some cases, but not always. He probably had the most modern swing of that era, although he hit from the waist a hell of a lot more then the guys do now IMO.:



But pull the head off of the guy below, watch his swing, and tell me you wouldn't have plenty to say about it:




wow BM you should have stopped a long time a go---you have really dug your self a hole now...You have been exposed---by the greats of the past...

Actually, I believe you have, by your lack of knowledge about the swing as a whole.


I'd love to have seen you teach that to Williams--maybe he could have had this bug-squishin' box swing himself....Ruth and Aaron too!!!!!!:rofl::rofl::

Thx for proving my point. The tranparancy in your argument is weak.


A BoardMember player is doing both here:
http://www.youtube.com/v/ZU6NU_BIudM

A BoardMember Hitter? I used this kid as an example of "box maintainence" when compare to a hitter with EXTREME Arm Bar.

Again your attempt to discredit me, and it's getting a little tiring.

I've shown the value of the "Box". I've said it is a que. I know it works. So do many other coaches, including MLB players and coaches.

Are you calling this guy a liar as well? Read the BOLD PRINT:


My son attended a clinic over the weekend near Atlanta. Maintaining The Box was talked about constantly by the instructors..which included, four active mlb players and three active mlb scouts.

I've been doing this a hell of a long time. There are many "ques" I've picked up along the way that help correct certain flaws IN YOUNG HITTERS. The Box is one of them.

I have stated many times I AGREE with lead arm extension as a high level pattern. You insist it can't happen and create a box. This is PURE CRAP, and has been shown on video here with the best HITTERS IN THE GAME TODAY.:thumbsup:

[BoardMember]

5, I wouldn't use a box analogy first to correct drag. My initial fix for severe drag is to teach proper upper load including "raising the rear elbow up behind the top hand during the stride".

Then If I saw the swing continue to collapse from there, we would discuss a box analogy.

Best regards.........


I believe the "bat drag" issue above could be easily cleared up with proper top hand/forearm action. I believe your assessment is that establishing a "box" can correct this as well. While that isn't the approach I use to correct "bat drag" I do respect that it is your approach.

[Chris O'Leary]

FWIW, you can see my top-down triangle fall apart as the swing progresses and the bat drag occurs.

The 90 degree angle formed by the shoulder-shoulder-hand lines expands to more like 150+ degrees as the hands stay still as the shoulders rotate (and the swing lengthens).

You could also explain this using a box, but the key point (as Ursa pointed out in my thread) is that the internal angles of the box have to be maintained and stay relatively constant.

[BoardMember]

FWIW, you can see my top-down triangle fall apart as the swing progresses and the bat drag occurs.

The 90 degree angle formed by the shoulder-shoulder-hand lines expands to more like 150+ degrees as the hands stay still as the shoulders rotate (and the swing lengthens).

You could also explain this using a box, but the key point (as Ursa pointed out in my thread) is that the internal angles of the box have to be maintained and stay relatively constant.

FYI, these are the lines that mbs says are competely bogus. They are "my" lines 1 and 2:




So as everyone can see, the line of your box from the back shoulder to the bottom hand gives us no reliable information for video analysis and more importantly, it gives the player no quality information as it relates to the hands and shoulder.

He would like us to believe that Roses Hands should be behind the shoulders for "lead arm extension".

Pure Crap......Camera Angles, NOT REAL LIFE...........

[jbooth]

BM, I made something for my son out of PVC to help him with the box concept, which worked like a charm for him. Does Mr. Booth's pipe tool look like a lopsided "T" ? Thanks.

Below is the device and it is used to teach them to swing like the animation;

[BoardMember]

More totally useless lines of the box:




FYI, these are the lines that mbs says are competely bogus. They are "my" lines 1 and 2:





He would like us to believe that Roses Hands should be behind the shoulders for "lead arm extension".

Pure Crap......Camera Angles, NOT REAL LIFE...........

[FiveFrameSwing]

5, I wouldn't use a box analogy first to correct drag. My initial fix for severe drag is to teach proper upper load including "raising the rear elbow up behind the top hand during the stride".

Then If I saw the swing continue to collapse from there, we would discuss a box analogy.

Best regards.........

Thank you for the clarification BoardMember.

I appreciate all your help this year.

Happy new year!

[wogdoggy]

On Film? The amount of flexion in a particular swing and camera angles.



In other words, Regarding MLB swings:




Yes, I have a comment, although a bit sarcastic, you'll get the point.

We used to crap in toilets like this around the same period of time. They were the "best of their time".

Evolution has changed a lot of things for the better:



These guys were the best hitters OF THEIR DAY. Self-Taught.

You can't expect us to keep crapping in those old toilets forever I hope, given the evolution of today's toilet flushing technology.

EFFICIENCY IS THE KEY IN BOTH SENARIOS IMO.

theres a "SWING " that has tested "TIME"..

[Hard Liner]

These guys were the best hitters OF THEIR DAY. Self-Taught.
(Pictures: Gehrig, Greenburg, Williams)

Evolution has changed a lot of things for the better.


Perfectly reasonable reply and, if true, trumps any other consideration. Your assertion raises a lot of questions I'd need to answer before I would be ready to accept it, but on its face it seems obvious and logical. Though the talent pool has improved greatly, I'm not sure baseball, as an institution, has been the kind of place, necessarily, that could be assumed to have advanced technical knowledge of swing mechanics, but that subject is too wide for this thread.