momentum pitching

[jamesh23]

Alright So I admit the explosive pitching thread got me riled up once that clip was posted of the kid with weird lookin mechanics I looked into whats called momentum pitching what he demonstrated and it says thats how some pitchers used to pitch back in the 70's and it could greatly improve velocity, I could see how because the body is moving faster and theres a bigger stride here are some vids

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hAviGQNvJrE&feature=related

slow version of above vid
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pBIHaQx0IGo&NR=1

some others doing it

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xJiWUV8HyZ8&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qxmhZlfFTO0&feature=related

so what do you all think about it? legit way to increase velocity?

[Jake Patterson]

Alright So I admit the explosive pitching thread got me riled up once that clip was posted of the kid with weird lookin mechanics I looked into whats called momentum pitching what he demonstrated and it says thats how some pitchers used to pitch back in the 70's and it could greatly improve velocity, I could see how because the body is moving faster and theres a bigger stride here are some vids

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hAviGQNvJrE&feature=related

slow version of above vid
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pBIHaQx0IGo&NR=1

some others doing it

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xJiWUV8HyZ8&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qxmhZlfFTO0&feature=related

so what do you all think about it? legit way to increase velocity?

Go to You Tube and click on Kevin B. What is different with this momentum method than current conventional methods?

[jamesh23]

Yea I was lookin at kevin B, and im not sure lol thats why I was asking, I guess cuz you get a longer stride and your body is moving faster which would transfer to arm speed and increased velocity? and normal windups can be slow and controlled with 70% stride. Also another question I was lookin at some paul reddick videos and he said to throw a curveball it doesnt matter what grip, it matters how your arm is tilted is that true?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bT8QSuEqn7g&feature=related

[jofus13]

Well, the first one looked like a fastpitch softball pitch in that he dragged his foot well off the rubber before he released the ball, but then threw overhand instead of underhand.

Isn't that an illegal pitch in baseball?

The 2nd and 3rd ones looked like illegal pitches to me too, but I've been concentrating on softball rules more than baseball lately, so I could be mistaken.

Edit>>I just watched the slo-mo of the first one, his foot drag would be illegal in softball too, because his foot doesn't stay in contact with the ground (hopping). Not that it gets called as much as it should in softball.....

[Chris O'Leary]

Alright So I admit the explosive pitching thread got me riled up once that clip was posted of the kid with weird lookin mechanics I looked into whats called momentum pitching what he demonstrated and it says thats how some pitchers used to pitch back in the 70's and it could greatly improve velocity, I could see how because the body is moving faster and theres a bigger stride here are some vids

Momentum Pitching is the idea of Brent Rushall, who holds lots of ignorant notions about pitching...

1. He thinks a pitcher's hips and shoulders should rotate at the same time.
2. He thinks the bend of a pitcher's elbow at the release point determines their arm slot.

I find it hard to take him seriously as a result.

[Chris O'Leary]

I guess cuz you get a longer stride and your body is moving faster which would transfer to arm speed and increased velocity?

The stride is valuable, but it's not the whole enchilada as Rushall and Mills believe.


Also another question I was lookin at some paul reddick videos and he said to throw a curveball it doesnt matter what grip, it matters how your arm is tilted is that true?

No.

[fastbal95]

"1. He thinks a pitcher's hips and shoulders should rotate at the same time."

Thats funny cuz that what we do/strive to do, especially with our wrong foot throws!!!

[jamesh23]

The stride is valuable, but it's not the whole enchilada as Rushall and Mills believe.




No.

lol alright thanks I didnt think it was true.
so the way kevin B pitches is illegal? or not cuz his foot doesnt leave the ground? what about those guys back in the 70's who did this style? Also chris im lookin at your site now about lincecum and you saying he poked a major hole in rushalls theory about the hips rotating thing, thanks.

[XV84]

Well, the first one looked like a fastpitch softball pitch in that he dragged his foot well off the rubber before he released the ball, but then threw overhand instead of underhand.

Isn't that an illegal pitch in baseball?

The 2nd and 3rd ones looked like illegal pitches to me too, but I've been concentrating on softball rules more than baseball lately, so I could be mistaken.

Edit>>I just watched the slo-mo of the first one, his foot drag would be illegal in softball too, because his foot doesn't stay in contact with the ground (hopping). Not that it gets called as much as it should in softball.....

MLB pitchers rarely have their back foot on the ground at release point, so it doesn't matter.

"1. He thinks a pitcher's hips and shoulders should rotate at the same time."

Thats funny cuz that what we do/strive to do, especially with our wrong foot throws!!!

I believe Chris was referring to the traditional pitching motion.

[fastbal95]

I know he was, I was just trying to be funny! lol

[jamesh23]

alright well so doing this "momentum pitching" would you increase velocity? or how about just speeding up your delivery and making it "explosive" would that increase it?

[Chris O'Leary]

MLB pitchers rarely have their back foot on the ground at release point, so it doesn't matter.

It doesn't matter what a pitcher's back foot does (in terms of staying on the rubber or not) once he's committed to go to the plate.

And it's in his interest to get his PAS foot as far off the rubber as possible.


I believe Chris was referring to the traditional pitching motion.

The lesser degrees of hip/shoulder separation is one thing that makes me nervous about Marshall-trained pitchers. I also think it might help to explain their lower velocities.

[Chris O'Leary]

alright well so doing this "momentum pitching" would you increase velocity? or how about just speeding up your delivery and making it "explosive" would that increase it?

It might increase one aspect of it, but it could easily hurt other, and IMO more important, things like hip/shoulder separation.

The net result in terms of velocity could easily be negative (not to mention the increased likelihood of knee and hip problems).

[jamesh23]

ok thanks chris, I think I recently got my hip/shoulder seperation down and leading with my hip, that increased my velocity about 5-7 mph or so I can tell im throwing harder, I just gotta get used to doing it, then when I add in scap loading I can hit about 73 or so but I usually forget to do it and only hit about 65-68. I started doing heavy power cleans do you guys think that will help with my velocity since its an explosive movement?

[fastbal95]

"The lesser degrees of hip/shoulder separation is one thing that makes me nervous about Marshall-trained pitchers. I also think it might help to explain their lower velocities."

Chris, could you please explain the lower velocites comment since you havent seen any of us throw in person???? Lets not forget either, that gentics play a HUGE role in how fast someone is able to throw. We had a guy here throwing 95 mph, clocked at a Dodgers tryout. And Im sure people are going to say, heresay, proof it, and all that bs. If you ever do come down here Chris, I'll introduce you to him. He doesnt train with us anymore, but he lives in the area with his family. He doesnt pitch anymore cuz I guess he'd rather play golf. Its a mystery to us too why he doesnt continue to train/play.

[jamesh23]

if he hit 95 mph at a dodgers tryout he woulda been signed right there if he had any type of control whatsoever, Unless they looked that he used marshalls mechanics and turned him down why would they do that?

[fastbal95]

Dan had great control and a hammer curve to go with his 95 heat. The scout looked at one of the pitching coaches there, and the guy gave him a thumbs down. When the guys showed up, one of the Dodger guys running it said its some of that Dr.'s guys, dont even pay attention.

Honestly, I think it has something to do with not be able to teach or coach it if they did sign anyone who throws like us. But what do I know.

[jamesh23]

Dan had great control and a hammer curve to go with his 95 heat. The scout looked at one of the pitching coaches there, and the guy gave him a thumbs down. When the guys showed up, one of the Dodger guys running it said its some of that Dr.'s guys, dont even pay attention.

Honestly, I think it has something to do with not be able to teach or coach it if they did sign anyone who throws like us. But what do I know.

I dont wanna diss you guys but why throw like you do if you never have a chance to go anywhere? isnt it a waste of time lol you'll never get anywhere throwing like that, doesnt matter if it keeps your arm healthy, you wont need it to be healthy if you arent pitching. Besides for the love of the game of course lol

[fastbal95]

You make an interesting point. For me, I tore my labrum throwing the "traditional" way. None of the trainers, coaches, or team doctors for that fact, could tell me what I was doing wrong that caused this injury. I email Dr. Mike Marshall and he told me exactly what I was doing wrong, what caused me to injure myself. I looked into his ideas and from my backround in school, it just made perfect sense. Why would I go back to throwing a way that cause a torn labrum in my shoulder?

Def of insanity: Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

Once a pitcher gets injured, why would they go back to throwing the way they did? They are eventually just going to injure themselves again, and that is insane, if you ask me.

[jamesh23]

You make an interesting point. For me, I tore my labrum throwing the "traditional" way. None of the trainers, coaches, or team doctors for that fact, could tell me what I was doing wrong that caused this injury. I email Dr. Mike Marshall and he told me exactly what I was doing wrong, what caused me to injure myself. I looked into his ideas and from my backround in school, it just made perfect sense. Why would I go back to throwing a way that cause a torn labrum in my shoulder?

Def of insanity: Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

Once a pitcher gets injured, why would they go back to throwing the way they did? They are eventually just going to injure themselves again, and that is insane, if you ask me.

good point... anyway could we get back on topic?

[Chris O'Leary]

I started doing heavy power cleans do you guys think that will help with my velocity since its an explosive movement?

No.

Those muscles aren't very active during a throw.

Your time would be better spent strengthening your core and conditioning your rotator cuff.

[jamesh23]

No.

Those muscles aren't very active during a throw.

Your time would be better spent strengthening your core and conditioning your rotator cuff.

ok, what are some rotator cuff exercises? would the throwers10 be considered that? also i've been doing weighted decline situps, heavy 5 rep squats with perfect form, deadlifts with good form, bench press, and i've also been working my forearms a lot, I was gonna make a medicine ball out of a basketball to help with my core also.

[Chris O'Leary]

ok, what are some rotator cuff exercises? would the throwers10 be considered that?

Yes.

Also, Marshall's conditioning stuff is exceptional.


also i've been doing weighted decline situps, heavy 5 rep squats with perfect form, deadlifts with good form, bench press, and i've also been working my forearms a lot, I was gonna make a medicine ball out of a basketball to help with my core also.

You've got to be careful when weightlifting for pitching.

Bench presses done the wrong way (bar to chest) will do little good and can destroy your shoulders. So can push-ups if you take the chest to the floor. You also need to follow a balanced plan that works both side of the muscle groups or you'll end up with muscle imbalances.

That's like dropping a bigger engine in a car and not also upgrading the brakes. It's fun, until it's time to stop.

[jamesh23]

marshalls conditioning? link? ill google it now, thanks and also yea im into powerlifting also so I do use an arch in benchpressing and go bar to chest, I heard dumbells help strengthen the rotator cuff also. And thanks for all your help so far chris.

[fastbal95]

Chris,

can you explain to me why you think bringing the bench bar down to your chest can be harmful to your shoulders? also the push up comment? can you explain better? thanks

[Chris O'Leary]

can you explain to me why you think bringing the bench bar down to your chest can be harmful to your shoulders? also the push up comment? can you explain better? thanks

You can end up with the elbows too far behind the acromial plane and in a mechanically weak position.

It's not terrible with lighter weights, but I have seen people quickly tear their shoulders up when they try to set a PB.

[fastbal95]

Well Im glad that was your answer. Now can you tell me how this is different from what we call scapular loading?

[jamesh23]

well scap loading is technically the same move you do when you pinch your shoulder blades together on the bench, also when you bench press tucking your elbows will prevent what you talked about chris right? or wrong? in other words bringing the bar lower on your chest to below nipple level and trying to pull your elbows into your ribcage?

[Chris O'Leary]

Chris, could you please explain the lower velocites comment since you havent seen any of us throw in person????

I have swagged velocities by counting frames.

Listen, I am probably the least velocity obsessed guy out there, but it does matter. I'm looking at you clips right now. Your sinker and screwball are both very nice. However, your fastball is pretty flat. You won't get away with a soft, flat fastball at higher levels. Either it has to be hard and flat or soft with lots of movement.

Of course, the best case is Nolan Ryan's. Hard with tons of movement.

[Chris O'Leary]

Well Im glad that was your answer. Now can you tell me how this is different from what we call scapular loading?

Because of what I see in guys like Greg Maddux, I'm not convinced that inadvertent, natural scapular loading is bad as long as it isn't done to too large of a degree and the elbows are kept below the level of the shoulders.

However, I don't teach people to do it.

[fastbal95]

Well thanks for answering Chris. Both questions. In this circle of baseball I guess there seems to be two different kinds of scap loading; passive and active? would those be good terms to describe them? Maybe you can explain more.

When that video was shot, I had worked with Doc for only 4 months. I had basica releases and basic strength levels, but nothing like I have now. I appreciate your comments. But which fastball did you mean, torque, maxline, both???? I will agree the velocity is not the end all be all, but it def is important. I think its important to remember that in the video, we are on a turf mound wearing gym shoes in one part, we have just finished our workout and begin throwing, we arent in a game situation so we dont have the same adreneline. Anyways, Im much much better now, so I cant wait for Doc to shoot more video and take that garbage down, lol. Seriously Chris, time is wasting, get down here!

[APPpitch]

Alright So I admit the explosive pitching thread got me riled up once that clip was posted of the kid with weird lookin mechanics I looked into whats called momentum pitching what he demonstrated and it says thats how some pitchers used to pitch back in the 70's and it could greatly improve velocity, I could see how because the body is moving faster and theres a bigger stride here are some vids

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hAviGQNvJrE&feature=related

slow version of above vid
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pBIHaQx0IGo&NR=1

some others doing it

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xJiWUV8HyZ8&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qxmhZlfFTO0&feature=related

so what do you all think about it? legit way to increase velocity?

Mills/Rushall admire this kid for his willingness to move his body in an explosive manner but this kid is not what they promote and have given this kid advice on toning down this leaping delivery and to refine it.

After spending a good deal of time reading and learning what Dick Mills is teaching, he is a huge fan of Nolan Ryan and Tim Lincecum. Heck, the two of them head his website All About Pitching dot com. He also likes Whitey Ford and Sandy Koufax. Nolan Ryan epitomizes everything Mills believes is right in a delivery (except the ultra high leg lift) and simply points to his 25 years of being able to throw 95mph without injury. Lincecum is a new breed of explosiveness and Mills likes this kid because he is using his entire body (all 160lbs) to throw 95mph. To a slightly lesser degree, Mills likes Beckett but was more of a fan of Beckett 3-4 years ago when he moved much faster at the beginning of his delivery. Mills loves Matsuzaka but hates the pause at the beginning of his delivery. He also admires that guys work ethic. Mills enjoys CC Sabathia and is impressed at how well a man of his size gets his body moving.

If I had to guess, 99% of you also find these pitchers enjoyable to watch. After reading the crap most other "gurus" spew, I find this kind of simple, back to basics, philosophy to be very refreshing.

Most videos on You Tube under the Momentum Pitching heading are of kids willing to buck the current trend and go back to a delivery reminiscent of the 40's through the 70's. Some have gone too far, and some don't really get it, which is why Dick Mills came out with a Momentum Pitching DVD recently. I have watched this. If you like the way Whitey Ford, Ron Guidry, and a host of others from the 60's and 70's pitched by stepping back and stepping forward with their hips driving without any hesitations into a stride length 100% of their height, you will find the DVD very familiar, simple, and fluid.

No gimmicks. No fancy explanations. No fancy terms to make him "look smarter", no ego.

If you are not a fan of the HOF's Dick Mills is a fan of then you are either being misled by others who want you to believe he is crazy or you are too young to remember these guys who successfully pitched their way into the record books.

And yes, I have spent time with House, Wolforth, gave Marshall an academic whirl, liked old school Thurston for a time, and settled on Mills for me and my son. At 14, and using Mills program, not always to the letter, meaning sometimes we only give half an effort and don't put all the work in; he has never had any arm trouble. Never complains of pain in his arm, only that his legs get tired after 6-7 innings of good effort, has pretty good control and throws above average. 74-77. He doesn't throw a curve and only gets into real trouble when he tips off his changeup to the 3-4-5 hitters. Like most kids.

Well, thats all I got to say about that. "Gump"

Hope that helps some in search of answers to the big mystery of pitching.

:)

-scott

[Chris O'Leary]

Well thanks for answering Chris. Both questions. In this circle of baseball I guess there seems to be two different kinds of scap loading; passive and active? would those be good terms to describe them? Maybe you can explain more.

I don't advocate active scap loading, but I'm not convinced that passive scap loading is bad if you keep the elbows below the level of the shoulders like Maddux does.

http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Pitching/Images/Examples/Example_ScapularLoading_Good_GregMaddux_199X_012.j pg

Also, while I know you don't like him, the fact is that Randy Johnson has been free of shoulder and elbow problems and, while he scap loads, he keeps his elbows below the level of his shoulders.

http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Pitching/Images/Examples/Example_ScapularLoading_Good_RandyJohnson_2003_001 .jpg



When that video was shot, I had worked with Doc for only 4 months. I had basica releases and basic strength levels, but nothing like I have now. I appreciate your comments. But which fastball did you mean, torque, maxline, both???? Anyways, Im much much better now, so I cant wait for Doc to shoot more video and take that garbage down, lol. Seriously Chris, time is wasting, get down here!

I was talking about your first fastball. I think it was the Maxline. Your torque fastball/slider also looked decent.

What I like to see in a 4-seamer is a pitch with largely horizontal movement that can be used to break bats.

[Chris O'Leary]

well scap loading is technically the same move you do when you pinch your shoulder blades together on the bench, also when you bench press tucking your elbows will prevent what you talked about chris right? or wrong? in other words bringing the bar lower on your chest to below nipple level and trying to pull your elbows into your ribcage?

I'm not convinced that's safer.

It almost won't do much if anything of value for a pitcher, so I don't think it's worth the risk.

[fastbal95]

"simply points to his 25 years of being able to throw 95mph without injury."

I cannot remember much of Nolan Ryan, what I do remember is that he threw many many no hitters, through extremely hard in old age, and did Bayer commercials, lol. Correct me if Im wrong, but didnt he spend numerous, numerous times on the DL throughout his career? I dont know how many were for an arm injury or not, but im just trying to get some verification. If this is in fact true, how can someone say "without injury". Being on the DISabled list means you are injured, unable to perform, does it not? Maybe someone a little older than me can clarify, thanks.

[fastbal95]

Chris,

In the video, all my fastballs are 2 seam. We throw all 2 seam fastballs until two strikes, then if we happen to throw a fastball with two strikes, its then a four seam.

I will agree the velocity is not the end all be all, but it def is important. I think its important also to remember that in the video, we are on a turf mound wearing gym shoes in one part, we have just finished our workout and begin throwing, and we arent in a game situation so we dont have the same adreneline.

Also, we may disagree here, but Chris, do you really think that all of Randy's trips to the DL for his back over the years are really for his back?

[Chris O'Leary]

"simply points to his 25 years of being able to throw 95mph without injury."

I cannot remember much of Nolan Ryan, what I do remember is that he threw many many no hitters, through extremely hard in old age, and did Bayer commercials, lol. Correct me if Im wrong, but didnt he spend numerous, numerous times on the DL throughout his career? I dont know how many were for an arm injury or not, but im just trying to get some verification. If this is in fact true, how can someone say "without injury". Being on the DISabled list means you are injured, unable to perform, does it not? Maybe someone a little older than me can clarify, thanks.

Ryan had an arm problem at the beginning of his career, I think right after he was drafted. It's not clear what it was, but it sounds like a forearm tendon problem since it resolved itself when he took an extended period of time off. After that he was pretty much injury free until literally the last days of his career.

[APPpitch]

Wikipedia:

Nolan Ryan's very durable arm finally gave out in Seattle on September 22, 1993, when he tore a ligament, ending his career two starts earlier than planned. Briefly attempting to pitch past the injury, Ryan threw one further pitch after tearing his ligament; with his injured arm, his final pitch was measured at 98 miles per hour. Ryan's last start was his worst; he allowed a single, four walks, and a grand slam in the top of the first without recording an out. (Ryan left trailing 5-0, and the fourth walk was completed by a reliever after Ryan's injury, but credited to Ryan.)

[XV84]

No.

Those muscles aren't very active during a throw.

Your time would be better spent strengthening your core and conditioning your rotator cuff.

A power clean is an explosive exercise that engages the core, namely the stabilization of the muscles of the spine.

[fastbal95]

The 1984 and 1985 seasons were filled with injuries and frustrations for Ryan.

and on August 23, 1975, Ryan underwent elbow surgery

Injuries hindered him again in 1978,

Baseballlibrary.com

Can anyone shed some more light on this??

[APPpitch]

He was also once bit by a coyote.

In 1975, he had off season elbow surgery and had a great season in 76.

And he spent a few weeks on the DL at ages 39 & 42.

Is this what you got out of my entire post?

-scott

[fastbal95]

No, not at all. I am just trying to find out how long he spent on the DL and for what reasons, thats all. What can I say, Im curious, I like baseball history.

[APPpitch]

No, not at all. I am just trying to find out how long he spent on the DL and for what reasons, thats all. What can I say, Im curious, I like baseball history.

Cool. Do what I did and go to http://books.google.com/books?id=C7e6ybXOyocC&pg=PA62&lpg=PA62&dq=nolan+ryan+injuries&source=web&ots=PRCEStJMbv&sig=tPAQp_WJ41U7wzWmOec7jRjarQM

Very interesting to read and to read how players were written about in the papers back then.

Good night.

[dm59]

Mills/Rushall admire this kid for his willingness to move his body in an explosive manner but this kid is not what they promote and have given this kid advice on toning down this leaping delivery and to refine it.

After spending a good deal of time reading and learning what Dick Mills is teaching, he is a huge fan of Nolan Ryan and Tim Lincecum. Heck, the two of them head his website All About Pitching dot com. He also likes Whitey Ford and Sandy Koufax. Nolan Ryan epitomizes everything Mills believes is right in a delivery (except the ultra high leg lift) and simply points to his 25 years of being able to throw 95mph without injury. Lincecum is a new breed of explosiveness and Mills likes this kid because he is using his entire body (all 160lbs) to throw 95mph. To a slightly lesser degree, Mills likes Beckett but was more of a fan of Beckett 3-4 years ago when he moved much faster at the beginning of his delivery. Mills loves Matsuzaka but hates the pause at the beginning of his delivery. He also admires that guys work ethic. Mills enjoys CC Sabathia and is impressed at how well a man of his size gets his body moving.

If I had to guess, 99% of you also find these pitchers enjoyable to watch. After reading the crap most other "gurus" spew, I find this kind of simple, back to basics, philosophy to be very refreshing.

Most videos on You Tube under the Momentum Pitching heading are of kids willing to buck the current trend and go back to a delivery reminiscent of the 40's through the 70's. Some have gone too far, and some don't really get it, which is why Dick Mills came out with a Momentum Pitching DVD recently. I have watched this. If you like the way Whitey Ford, Ron Guidry, and a host of others from the 60's and 70's pitched by stepping back and stepping forward with their hips driving without any hesitations into a stride length 100% of their height, you will find the DVD very familiar, simple, and fluid.

No gimmicks. No fancy explanations. No fancy terms to make him "look smarter", no ego.

If you are not a fan of the HOF's Dick Mills is a fan of then you are either being misled by others who want you to believe he is crazy or you are too young to remember these guys who successfully pitched their way into the record books.

And yes, I have spent time with House, Wolforth, gave Marshall an academic whirl, liked old school Thurston for a time, and settled on Mills for me and my son. At 14, and using Mills program, not always to the letter, meaning sometimes we only give half an effort and don't put all the work in; he has never had any arm trouble. Never complains of pain in his arm, only that his legs get tired after 6-7 innings of good effort, has pretty good control and throws above average. 74-77. He doesn't throw a curve and only gets into real trouble when he tips off his changeup to the 3-4-5 hitters. Like most kids.:applaud: Scott, that was a very good, simple explanation of MP and Mills.

[Chris O'Leary]

Also, we may disagree here, but Chris, do you really think that all of Randy's trips to the DL for his back over the years are really for his back?

Randy's love of his slider does concern me, but I have no reason to believe his injuries were anything but what they said they were.

[Chris O'Leary]

A power clean is an explosive exercise that engages the core, namely the stabilization of the muscles of the spine.

There are more direct ways to work the core.

[Chris O'Leary]

The 1984 and 1985 seasons were filled with injuries and frustrations for Ryan.

and on August 23, 1975, Ryan underwent elbow surgery

Injuries hindered him again in 1978

If you look at baseball reference, there is no sign of major problems. Yes, he lost some innings, but he didn't lose any seasons.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/r/ryanno01.shtml

The reason why is probably related to the tremendous tail of his fastball and the pronation that is required to achieve that.

http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Pitching/Videos/Video_Pitching_NolanRyan_1980_CF_TailingFB_001.gif

IMO, Marshall should be EMBRACING Nolan Ryan (and Greg Maddux) rather than criticizing him.

Nolan Ryan exhibits...

1. Major pronation.
2. Limited reverse rotation.
3. Minimal to moderate scap loading.

[Shake Zula]

What I notice is that hard-throwers generally fall off to the side rather than bending down to the home plate. (such as the Nolan Ryan clip in Chris O'Leary's post)

MP pitchers mostly bend down to the homeplate...

[jamesh23]

ok can we get back to momentum pitching? I know you guys helped a lot already but still, every thread always goes to marshalls pitching mechanics somehow.

[APPpitch]

ok can we get back to momentum pitching? I know you guys helped a lot already but still, every thread always goes to marshalls pitching mechanics somehow.


Post #32 above.

Enjoy.

-scott

[jamesh23]

Post #32 above.

Enjoy.

-scott

i know thats what helped the most along with everyone else and chris's posts, but that cant be everything about it can it? there has to be some more info.

[APPpitch]

i know thats what helped the most along with everyone else and chris's posts, but that cant be everything about it can it? there has to be some more info.

OK. Short of going to Dick Mills' site and reading his blogs and such, and just short of becoming a client, You Tube or Google Video: Whitey Ford, Nolan Ryan, Sandy Koufax, Bob Gibson (If you like to intimidate), Bob Feller, Lincecum, etc. And look for common traits. And I do mean watching, pausing, studying, even note taking, and see what traits they share, see how they differ, see how different they move, how fast, how smooth, etc.

Think about how different they are from you and your friends, and ask yourself one simple question: Do I want to pitch more like Hall of Famers or do I want to pitch like some of my friends who may not make it past HS?

Today, you have a variety pack of good models. Clemens (with or without PED's :), Beckett, Sabathia, Lincecum, early Maddux.

Study. Apply. Work it. Become different. Become better. Momentum and Explosive pitching styles can surely be mixed. Even Mills believes a hybrid is probably the best combination, but likes the upsides of both. He's flexible in his approach. He hates making kids think they have to do it one kind of way like other instructors might. For really young kids, he strongly suggests you teach a kid how to begin and teach them how to finish and let them figure out the middle. He hates watching all of these HS kids who have been coached into robotic paralysis. Momentum pitching is more about the art of the old school. When pitchers were revered, counted on, performed every 3-4 days, and had style.

Find what you are looking for. It's out there.

-scott

[jamesh23]

again APP you hit it right on the head for what I was lookin for, I was lookin for pitchers to study and Ill check out mills site thanks, and I want to be the kid who goes to a higher level, problem is my pitching coach teaches a robotic motion that is slow and controlled, anyway I dont know if i have the ability to pitch harder than 85 mph, I throw 65-70 now using slow controlled mechanics with no scap loading and decent hip/shoulder seperation, with a curve that is more like a slow slider, and a changeup.

[Memphis]

Well, the first one looked like a fastpitch softball pitch in that he dragged his foot well off the rubber before he released the ball, but then threw overhand instead of underhand.

Isn't that an illegal pitch in baseball?

The 2nd and 3rd ones looked like illegal pitches to me too, but I've been concentrating on softball rules more than baseball lately, so I could be mistaken.

Edit>>I just watched the slo-mo of the first one, his foot drag would be illegal in softball too, because his foot doesn't stay in contact with the ground (hopping). Not that it gets called as much as it should in softball.....

Everything you've said is exactly correct.

Pause the video at 00:12. His foot is at least 2-feet off the rubber. There's no other word for it - IT'S ILLEGAL!

Your comments about fastpitch softball are also correct with regards to girls fastpitch. In men's fastpitch, their pivot foot is allowed to leave the ground.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

[highsckoolballer]

yo whats up people..... ive been reading and watching videos on the new momentum pitching... and some on explosive as well..... although momentum looks kind of ridiculous with the no balance point, it seems to have help these kids throw very fast.... tim lincecum is also amazing.... the way he strides an jus lets his arm hang an then ships it through..... im currently a sophomore pitching on J.V ( varsity is stacked for pitching and coach doesn't trust me cause hes never seen me pitch..) i throw low to mid 70's with a very good slurve, probably 1'6" break or more, a good change up and a solid 2 seem fastball....... do you guys think that if i sort of combine the two, like a quick momentum windup with a very small leg kick, i can up my velocity and control so i will hopefully be in the mid 80's by my senior year? o by the way im quite small, 6' 160 lbs so i still have some filling out to do....

[highsckoolballer]

tim lincecum *whips his arm through.... my bad

[APPpitch]

do you guys think that if i sort of combine the two, like a quick momentum windup with a very small leg kick, i can up my velocity and control

Only if you move your hips explosively, remove all pausing and hesitations while using a proper late hand break. Then yes, of course you can. Dick has revamped his entire site and offers up a 50 page pitching overview for free. Visit pitching.com and see what interests you.

I'm a fan of the hybrid form. A nice combination of both.

Have fun.

-scott

[highsckoolballer]

so your saying that when i come out of the balance point, i have to move my hips explosivly into a long stride to build power that eventually is transfered to my arm?

[APPpitch]

Lesson 1.

There is no balance point.

Watch the hips of Nolan Ryan, Goose Gossage, Whitey Ford and Sandy Koufax.

No pausing no hesitations. Once the pivot foot plants, the hips continue forward past the rubber, then a hand break (watch that too), push the rubber all the way back to 2B for a full back leg extension, stick the landing, brace up and feel your entire body fly over the hips as you launch the ball forward with ease of arm.

Thats it. Simple.

-scott

[highsckoolballer]

oh i see now.... i watched a video of kevin with dick mills(?) on youtube. i also tried throwing that way and it feels very foreign. but i think i work my up to it feeling comfertable. also, my coach tells me to slow down to give my arm time to catch up with my body. i couldnt hit the outside, maybe i should wait untill my body is over my hips?

[highsckoolballer]

i watched sandy koufax and he has a leg kick..... is it just that he is very low and drives his back leg that it is considered momentum?

[highsckoolballer]

or are you saying u kick your leg, but you dont stop in the balance posistion?

[APPpitch]

:)

don't watch leg kicks. Just watch where the hips are from start to finish. watch where the hips are during the hand break. watch the path each's arm takes after the hand break. where is the ball at its lowest point?

Do any of them pause at leg lift? Watch the hip. What is the hip doing? What's the back leg doing?

Don't watch kids working on mechanics. Watch only the best.

As Tim Lincecum once said, "The arm is along for the ride." The body leads, the arm is the easiest thing to catch up. It weighs less and has smaller muscles. It can always move faster than the rest.

When you break your hands, are your fingers on each hand facing each other for a really long time? Do you push them down? Or do you pull them apart too early. Push down, Don't pull apart. The faster the hips move forward the more room you have made for a proper hand break. Stay in contact with the rubber as you push it all the way back to 2B. How much does your back leg in order to push the rubber all the way back? How much does Nolan, Sandy or Goose bend?

If you move fast enough your stride will be 100% or more of your height. If you move strong enough, your back will finish flat. If you feel like you have to artificially flatten your back, you are moving your body too slow.

Read this a few times, practice it, video tape yourself, compare where you are to say Nolan Ryan (don't concentrate on his high leg kick, it was part of his timing chain, not his source of power) where are your hips from a side view in relation to the rubber after hand break? Still at the rubber? 4 inches in front? 12 inches in front?

Simple, but there's a lot of work in getting there.

-scott

[highsckoolballer]

yea im starting to get it some. so as long as i dont pause, a leg kick wont kill my velocity?

[highsckoolballer]

and i should have speration between my hips and shoulders, hips driving with shoulders following, like mr. lincecum?

[APPpitch]

Your thinking too much. :dance

Just go about your new business for the next month and then post before and after video.

You'll surprise yourself with what you are capable of doing with just a few things to work on.

Have fun.

-scott