what helps run pitchers?

[yankee]

what helps pitchers run long distincesa and sprints

[RIstar]

DO NOT run long distance it will train the muscles to mostly turn slow twitch if you do it over many years. Pitching is an explosive sport so sprints are the better way to go.

[fastbal95]

RIstar,

That not what he asked. You are wrong anyway.

What helps pitchers run long distances and sprints is doing long distance running and sprint work. Nothing is wrong with running long distance or sprints, but it wont make you a better pitcher.

[korp]

I think its ok to run distance for pitchers and not sprint BUT you must be doing explosive weight training especially for the core and lower body. Distance running will help you keep endurance but you can also do short sprints with little rest between because think about it ... what is pitching? A lot of short quick movements with little time in between unless you are a pitcher that sits up on the mound for 2 minutes before you throw a pitch! haha

[cosmo34]

Running long distance's for a pitcher is a must for any planning on playing in college. Right or wrong, you will be extremely hard pressed to find a program that doesn't make the pitchers run basically all day.

I feel it should be a combination of the two, but leaning more towards explosive plyo's/sprint work.

[XFactor]

Cosmo is right. Sprints = Great
But, long-distance has merrit as well, as it helps in quicker recovery from and increases the capacity to perform skill trials at practices, as well as increases mental alertness and tolerance to heat.

[fastbal95]

You guys should really read this!!

Click on this link, then click on, Specificity of Training by Professor William W. Heusner

First let me say it doesnt deal with pitching per say. So dont think its anything about Mike Marshalls motion, its not. Its just the only place I know where its posted on the internet.


http://drmikemarshall.com/SpecialReports.html

[Go Cardinals]

RIstar,

That not what he asked. You are wrong anyway.

What helps pitchers run long distances and sprints is doing long distance running and sprint work. Nothing is wrong with running long distance or sprints, but it wont make you a better pitcher.

You contradicted yourself! You say that he is wrong. Then you say distances won't make you a better pitcher. What are you talking about? Re-read your post! You

"...but it wont make you a better pitcher"
"You are wrong anyway." ---- wich is refering to...

Ristar, "DO NOT run long distance it will train the muscles to mostly turn slow twitch if you do it over many years. Pitching is an explosive sport so sprints are the better way to go."

__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ______________________

According to john doyle running does not help. According to you John Doyle is wrong (the best baseball trainer out there), and scap loading doesn't happen. You need to start reading real work.

From what I've seen his stuff is pretty much accepted around here:

Here's his website:
http://www.baseballtrainingsecrets.com/pages/home.htm

[APPpitch]

I'm new to this guy. I followed the thread above, spent 15 minutes at his website and the whole Direct Response, "But wait there's more!" language has me wincing.

Can some people vouch to the validity of his hitting instruction/tips/training techniques?

Is his entire program a $499 purchase?

Why does he say there's only "30" of something available at this price and then it's too late? Thats weird. If he stands behind his product, why wouldn't you just try to sell as many as possible for as long as possible?

Again, a very strange website.

-scott

[cosmo34]

Not the first time there have been questions, APP

[fastbal95]

Go Cardinals,

Trying to figure out where you see a contradiction.

Yankee asked, "what helps pitchers run long distincesa and sprints". I take this to mean that he wants to know what will help pitchers run long distances and sprints, because that is what he said. I answered that running long distances and sprints would help pitchers run long distances and sprints. Its called specificity of training. Does that make sense to you?

RIstar said, " DO NOT run long distance it will train the muscles to mostly turn slow twitch if you do it over many years. Pitching is an explosive sport so sprints are the better way to go." By his answer I can only imagine that he thought yankee was asking which one was better for pitchers. Yankee acutally may have been asking this but it is not what he typed. I answered what he typed. In turn I said RIstar was incorrect. Why? Because neither will make a pitcher better at pitching. The only thing that will make a pitcher better at pitching, is pitching. Again, its called specificity of training. Maybe you should read it. Its by Dr. Williams Heusner from Michigan State University. I posted for link for the only location that I know of on the internet for anyone to read. Does that make sense to you? Or should I say do you at least follow what Im saying?

As far as John Boyle goes, it is just your opinion that he is the best trainer out there. He may be, and he may not be. I dont know, Ive never heard of him and dont know who he is. I dont know why he says that running wont help, and I dont know what reason he gives, but I will agree with him. As far as scap loading goes, if he advocates it, then yes, I disagree with him. It is possible to agree with someone on one thing and disagree on something else. Again, just because he stuff is pretty much accepted around here, is not a good reason for someone to do what he advocates at all.

After looking at his website about pitching, I would have to say he doesnt know much at all. Nothing he does that I can actually see is specific to pitching. And I say that because I cant find anything about pitching on his website unless I buy it. He does mention using the rotator cuff muscles as the muscles primarily used in pitching. That right there tells me all I need to know. He does not know anything. The subscapularis, teres minor, infra, and supra spinatus muscles are not really that important in the whole realm of pitching. I hope you didnt mean his stuff as reading REAL work. Go to the link I provided and read Dr. Heusner's research on specifity of training. You might learn something.

[Go Cardinals]

I'm new to this guy. I followed the thread above, spent 15 minutes at his website and the whole Direct Response, "But wait there's more!" language has me wincing.

Can some people vouch to the validity of his hitting instruction/tips/training techniques?

Is his entire program a $499 purchase?

Why does he say there's only "30" of something available at this price and then it's too late? Thats weird. If he stands behind his product, why wouldn't you just try to sell as many as possible for as long as possible?

Again, a very strange website.

-scott

He different. He's not about making $$ or selling the most products... he is about giving qulity products to customers at a reasonable price. ALOT of products out there are extremely high priced because peope think they are better. IMO, john ignores that and tries to give a fair price to get his amazing products out there. I too was hesitant about his site. When I bought his products, I was amazed about how good they are. I am not talking about his mechanics stuff, but about the workouts. I don't know anything about his baseball mechanics stuff. However, his work out stuff is the best out there. If you want to bring your game up to the next level, stop what you are doing and buy his products now!!!!!

Yeah, he's that good. Buy now before people find out about him and he becomes rich and famous, because then he could jack-up the price.

Check this out...
I think this is the program behind his work
http://www.renegadetraining.com/

[Go Cardinals]

Go Cardinals,

Trying to figure out where you see a contradiction.

Yankee asked, "what helps pitchers run long distincesa and sprints". I take this to mean that he wants to know what will help pitchers run long distances and sprints, because that is what he said. I answered that running long distances and sprints would help pitchers run long distances and sprints. Its called specificity of training. Does that make sense to you?

RIstar said, " DO NOT run long distance it will train the muscles to mostly turn slow twitch if you do it over many years. Pitching is an explosive sport so sprints are the better way to go." By his answer I can only imagine that he thought yankee was asking which one was better for pitchers. Yankee acutally may have been asking this but it is not what he typed. I answered what he typed. In turn I said RIstar was incorrect. Why? Because neither will make a pitcher better at pitching. The only thing that will make a pitcher better at pitching, is pitching. Again, its called specificity of training. Maybe you should read it. Its by Dr. Williams Heusner from Michigan State University. I posted for link for the only location that I know of on the internet for anyone to read. Does that make sense to you? Or should I say do you at least follow what Im saying?

As far as John Boyle goes, it is just your opinion that he is the best trainer out there. He may be, and he may not be. I dont know, Ive never heard of him and dont know who he is. I dont know why he says that running wont help, and I dont know what reason he gives, but I will agree with him. As far as scap loading goes, if he advocates it, then yes, I disagree with him. It is possible to agree with someone on one thing and disagree on something else. Again, just because he stuff is pretty much accepted around here, is not a good reason for someone to do what he advocates at all.

After looking at his website about pitching, I would have to say he doesnt know much at all. Nothing he does that I can actually see is specific to pitching. And I say that because I cant find anything about pitching on his website unless I buy it. He does mention using the rotator cuff muscles as the muscles primarily used in pitching. That right there tells me all I need to know. He does not know anything. The subscapularis, teres minor, infra, and supra spinatus muscles are not really that important in the whole realm of pitching. I hope you didnt mean his stuff as reading REAL work. Go to the link I provided and read Dr. Heusner's research on specifity of training. You might learn something.

I think John Doyle is correct. Its funny how you can call someones work wrong wthout owning it.

Once again, you contradict yourself....


And I say that because I cant find anything about pitching on his website unless I buy it.

Above... thats pretty pathetic. Just because he doesn't tell you all of his secrets on his website doesn't mean that he is right or wrong. You can't criticize someone's material that you don't even own. Are you kidding me?


I dont know, Ive never heard of him and dont know who he is.


You can pass judgement without owning his material.

"Ok, that dr heusner's stuff is all wrong. I've never herd of him in my life. Quite frankly, his name is spelled weirdly, so his products aren't good"

Thats what you are doing. In reality, there is no difference between between his name looking weird and this...


After looking at his website about pitching, I would have to say he doesnt know much at all. Nothing he does that I can actually see is specific to pitching. And I say that because I cant find anything about pitching on his website unless I buy it. He does mention using the rotator cuff muscles as the muscles primarily used in pitching. That right there tells me all I need to know. He does not know anything. The subscapularis, teres minor, infra, and supra spinatus muscles are not really that important in the whole realm of pitching. I hope you didnt mean his stuff as reading REAL work.


Don't judge a book by its cover. One sentence which really doesn't matter at all can make or break an entire guy's work? Wow, you are missing out on a lot then.

I can't wait for your next post where I can point out to everyone how you contradict yourself. Everyone who is reading this, read what he says. He is saying John doyle is bad, because of that?!?!?!?

Wow your messed up!

[Go Cardinals]

Fastball, its easy to copy and paste things and just give references. You probably just read from some guy that it was god, so now you live by it. You can't judge a book by its cover! God, didn't you learn anything in pre-school?

[fastbal95]

Do you even read what people post on here or do you just look for sentences to to try and respond to? Where have I just copied and pasted things and just gave references? I didn't learn anything in pre-school, I never went. I did happen learn a few things in college where I majored in biology and was on my way to medical school before I was drafted to play professional baseball though. I learned to read things and learn from what I read, to study and find out for myself if and why things work.

Honsetly Go Cardinals, you just don't know that much. If the cover of the book isn't right at all, what makes you think the book would be any different? Can you tell me where the rotator cuff muscles are actually located? Like I said earlier, follow Boyle for pitching, be my guest, its your right. I know better, I guess you don't. I never said he didn't know what he was about when it came to hitting or fielding or anything else, just pitching.

Cards, if and when you get into college, take some science classes, maybe like physics, anatomy, physiology, then we can talk. Also, do not read specificity of training. I don't think you can comprehend it.

[Go Cardinals]

Do you even read what people post on here or do you just look for sentences to to try and respond to? Where have I just copied and pasted things and just gave references? I didn't learn anything in pre-school, I never went. I did happen learn a few things in college where I majored in biology and was on my way to medical school before I was drafted to play professional baseball though. I learned to read things and learn from what I read, to study and find out for myself if and why things work.

Honsetly Go Cardinals, you just don't know that much. If the cover of the book isn't right at all, what makes you think the book would be any different? Can you tell me where the rotator cuff muscles are actually located? Like I said earlier, follow Boyle for pitching, be my guest, its your right. I know better, I guess you don't. I never said he didn't know what he was about when it came to hitting or fielding or anything else, just pitching.

You don't even know who this guy is. You can't make these opinions and statements. Also, it is your right to not follow him, but you can't diss him and his materials untill you own them. I guess all of your edu was a waste, because you don't even understand this simple concept.

Next, he is about workouts mostly. Last I heard he doesn't claim to be some expert on these. Also, its Doyle not Boyle, are you even reading my posts? Or do you read the first sentence and pass judgement which you seem to be good at.

[Go Cardinals]

Do you even read what people post on here or do you just look for sentences to to try and respond to? Where have I just copied and pasted things and just gave references? I didn't learn anything in pre-school, I never went. I did happen learn a few things in college where I majored in biology and was on my way to medical school before I was drafted to play professional baseball though. I learned to read things and learn from what I read, to study and find out for myself if and why things work.

Honsetly Go Cardinals, you just don't know that much. If the cover of the book isn't right at all, what makes you think the book would be any different? Can you tell me where the rotator cuff muscles are actually located? Like I said earlier, follow Boyle for pitching, be my guest, its your right. I know better, I guess you don't. I never said he didn't know what he was about when it came to hitting or fielding or anything else, just pitching.

Cards, if and when you get into college, take some science classes, maybe like physics, anatomy, physiology, then we can talk. Also, do not read specificity of training. I don't think you can comprehend it.

Funny, you don't know anything about me. I have taken physics. Also, my mom went to stanford grad school in med, therefore she has taken alot of anatomy and kineisiology classes. I'm not an expert, but I know alot more than you think. I know exactly where all of those tendons that you named are.

This is off subject. Listen... You cannot criticize John Doyle's work unless you own it!

Oh and just to keep a theme here going... once again you contradict yourself... did you even read my posts or his website? Its Doyle not Boyle. lol


I learned to read things and learn from what I read, to study and find out for myself if and why things work.


And yet you repeatly can't read/ spell throughout your posts in this thread. Thats hilarious. Your saying that I'm not smart enough. And you make fun of me by saying...

I guess I'm so uneducated here right? Did grammer count at you college? Since your so smart and I'm so dumb, why can't you use correct grammer?


I did happen learn a few things in college where I majored in biology and was on my way to medical school

[fastbal95]

What concept are you exactly talking about? Do you mean that someone needs to own Boyle's stuff before they can know what he is talking about? Well I went to his site and read what he has on there about pitching. Like I said before, he think the rotator cuff muscles are important for pitching. If you throw the traditional way, I guess you could say they are, but there is a motion which uses bigger, more vascularized muscles such as the teres major, lattissimus dorsi, and pronator teres, just to name a few. Do you know what vascularized means? Do you know where these muscles are located, where they attach and what they do?

So after reading that from Boyle, I know he doesnt know much. Its pretty clear.

Have you heard of antiginistic muscles? Do you know what that means. Maybe you can tell me why traditional pitchers cannot use their tricep muscle. By the way, it has the highest percentage of fast twitch muscle fibers out of any muscle used in pitching a baseball. Sounds maybe like that one might be important in pitching! Do you know what reciprical inhibition is? Can you tell me why contracting the pronator teres protects the elbow?

I didnt name any tendons, they are muscles, but they do have tendons the attach them to bones. And saying that they are in the shoulder doesnt count. Quick, where do they attach and insert at? No cheating. And I guess I forgot to put the word to in between happen and learn in the above mentioned sentence; typo. Other than that, what part of my spelling or grammar is not correct? Please explain. I never took English in college, was too busy with sciences. lol Also, you don't go to grad school for med. If you plan on studying medicine, then you go to Medical School. Is your mom a Dr.? If she is, then that is great. Maybe she can explain a few things to you. Just because you aren't that educated now, doesnt mean you cant learn anything new. Hopefully one day you will. And by the way, how is misspelling someones name a contradiction????

[Go Cardinals]

Can you tell me where the rotator cuff muscles are actually located?

I can, its actually quite easy...

[Go Cardinals]

What concept are you exactly talking about? Do you mean that someone needs to own Boyle's stuff before they can know what he is talking about? Well I went to his site and read what he has on there about pitching. Like I said before, he think the rotator cuff muscles are important for pitching. If you throw the traditional way, I guess you could say they are, but there is a motion which uses bigger, more vascularized muscles such as the teres major, lattissimus dorsi, and pronator teres, just to name a few. Do you know what vascularized means? Do you know where these muscles are located, where they attach and what they do?

So after reading that from Boyle, I know he doesnt know much. Its pretty clear.

Have you heard of antiginistic muscles? Do you know what that means. Maybe you can tell me why traditional pitchers cannot use their tricep muscle. By the way, it has the highest percentage of fast twitch muscle fibers out of any muscle used in pitching a baseball. Sounds maybe like that one might be important in pitching! Do you know what reciprical inhibition is? Can you tell me why contracting the pronator teres protects the elbow?

Your saying that the rotator cuff is not used in throwing?


So after reading that from Boyle, I know he doesnt know much. Its pretty clear.

What college did you go to?

Here are some of his credntials...
• Collegiate All-American candidate with a .393 career batting average (.470 senior year)
• Head Baseball Strength and Conditioning coach at perennial national power Adelphi University (6 Division 2 College World Series appearance in the 90’s.)
• Collegiate Hitting and fielding coach at Adelphi University
• Two exercise related degrees and numerous national strength and conditioning certifications
• Author of numerous books, articles and DVD’s on increasing performance specifically for baseball.
• Leader and expert for Renegade Training International. The most successful and copied strength and conditioning company in the world.

[fastbal95]

Your answer to where the rotator cuff muscles doesnt really count, sorry. Anyone can just post a picture.

What I was saying about the rotator cuff muscles, if you read my last post, was that they are small, and not that well vascularized compared to the lattissimus dorsi, teres major, pronator teres, etc... These muscles are much more efficient and allow us to pitch at full speed everyday, off of a mound. Look into it. You just might learn something.

[Go Cardinals]

but there is a motion which uses bigger, more vascularized muscles such as the teres major, lattissimus dorsi, and pronator teres, just to name a few. Do you know what vascularized means? Do you know where these muscles are located,


....here... heres a diagram of those...
Also, I beleive you spelled some of things wrong...


antiginistic muscles

Don't you mean the antagonistic muscles


lattissimus dorsi

Don't you mean the latissimus dorsi?


I did happen learn a few things in college where I majored in biology and was on my way to medical school

I guess I know why you didn't major in english...

[Go Cardinals]

Your answer to where the rotator cuff muscles doesnt really count, sorry. Anyone can just post a picture.

I think its pretty common knowledge where the rotater cuff is... I've known that forever!


if you read my last post


I wouldn't be talking...

[fastbal95]

I went to Saint Xavier University where I graduated with a B.S. ( thats bachelor of science, not ********, lol) in biology/premed. 3.8 GPA Also have half of my master's completed in secondary education with an emphasis in biology. 3.8 GPA

I dont claim to be the expert like Boyle. I am just learning from one. But some of my "credentials" are as follows:

3 time academic all-american
NAIA all-american designated hitter (.390)
NAIA all-american pitcher, second in nation in ERA, cant exactly remember what it was off the top of my head,but it was like 1.18 or something similar
2004 17th round draft pick of NY Mets
2004 all-star in NY-Penn League, 4th in league in ERA 2.28

Like I said before, putting up a picture doesnt mean you know where they are, where they attach and insert and exactly what they do with respect to the body. You need to learn that, and just putting up a pic of the body doesnt count as learning. Antaganistic isnt an actual muscle, but ya im sure i spelled some of them wrong, im not an english major remember, lol. Thanks for correcting the spelling for me, lol.

[Go Cardinals]

I went to Saint Xavier University where I graduated with a B.S. ( thats bachelor of science, not ********, lol) in biology/premed. 3.8 GPA Also have half of my master's completed in secondary education with an emphasis in biology. 3.8 GPA

I dont claim to be the expert like Boyle. I am just learning from one. But some of my "credentials" are as follows:

3 time academic all-american
NAIA all-american designated hitter (.390)
NAIA all-american pitcher, second in nation in ERA, cant exactly remember what it was off the top of my head,but it was like 1.18 or something similar
2004 17th round draft pick of NY Mets
2004 all-star in NY-Penn League, 4th in league in ERA 2.28

Like I said before, putting up a picture doesnt mean you know where they are, where they attach and insert and exactly what they do with respect to the body. You need to learn that, and just putting up a pic of the body doesnt count as learning. Antaganistic isnt an actual muscle, but ya im sure i spelled some of them wrong, im not an english major remember, lol. Thanks for correcting the spelling for me, lol.

Are you a pro now?

Antaganistic isnt an actual muscle, but ya im sure i spelled some of them wrong, im not an english major remember, lol. Thanks for correcting the spelling for me, lol.

I guess wikepedia failed me lol
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antagonist_(muscle)

[fastbal95]

Im tired and am going to bed. I hope to continue this discussion another time, perhaps tommorrow.

[Go Cardinals]

I went to Saint Xavier University where I graduated with a B.S. ( thats bachelor of science, not ********, lol) in biology/premed. 3.8 GPA Also have half of my master's completed in secondary education with an emphasis in biology. 3.8 GPA

I dont claim to be the expert like Boyle. I am just learning from one. But some of my "credentials" are as follows:

3 time academic all-american
NAIA all-american designated hitter (.390)
NAIA all-american pitcher, second in nation in ERA, cant exactly remember what it was off the top of my head,but it was like 1.18 or something similar
2004 17th round draft pick of NY Mets
2004 all-star in NY-Penn League, 4th in league in ERA 2.28

Like I said before, putting up a picture doesnt mean you know where they are, where they attach and insert and exactly what they do with respect to the body. You need to learn that, and just putting up a pic of the body doesnt count as learning. Antaganistic isnt an actual muscle, but ya im sure i spelled some of them wrong, im not an english major remember, lol. Thanks for correcting the spelling for me, lol.

Dam, we should get along, because I want to major in biology or kiniesiology.

I have actually been a hipocrit... I've never looked at Doyle's work for anything other than training for hitting. His work out stuff for hitting is amazing, I would recommend that for working out. I can't recommend his mechincs stuff for hitting or pitching though. lol

The rotator cuff does still have a role in throughing though right?


So these muscles that you are talking about... how do I go about training them? Them meaning the more vascularized muscles? What would you recomend? Did training these help you in your career?




P.S.
Also, on the spelling... I am bad at spelling too. I just copy and pasted all of the muscles into google... google tells you if its spelled right or not. lol :dance:dance:dance:dance

[Maxx]

DO NOT run long distance it will train the muscles to mostly turn slow twitch if you do it over many years. Pitching is an explosive sport so sprints are the better way to go.


RIstar, train the muscles to mostly turn slow twitch? That's quite an amazing trick! Care to explain your philosophy of fiber conversion?

[korp]

Dang this thread turned into a long one ... PS Michigan State is for people who get drunk and fight hahaha.

[fastbal95]

I shoulda went to Michigan State then, damn, lol!

[BrantleyF]

Ok this argument has gone too long and I know how the settle this...
fastbal95 i need you to post one video clip...new or old of you throwing and we can finally explain what we mean when we say "scapula loading." technically RIstar isn't referring the scapular loading that is now being promoted by some pitching instructors where pitchers INTENTIONALLY intend to pull there shoulders back and scapular load...what we're saying is that pitching inevitably results with the shoulders going just a little past your back similar to a load because when your chest thrusts out your arm has to drag behind and then whip through...so the way we settle this is by showing you that you 100% scapular load because it is NECESSARY to throw hard but no MLB pitcher does the load intentionally it is a natural movement only...RIstar is saying what you are saying in that pitchers are injured by scapular loading when the INTENTIONALLY attempt to pulls there shoulders back and OVER scapular load instead of allowing the natural movement of the body.

fastbal95 i don't post here a lot but please if you could post a video of yourself throwing on this thread then i will personally show you yourself "scapular loading" technically