Marshall Pitching Motion Video

[Chris O'Leary]

In another thread, someone posted a video comparing Roy Oswalt to a pitcher using Dr. Mike Marshall's pitching mechanics. I have blown up that video, stamped each frame, and slowed down the key arm action frames so that we can discuss it.

http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Pitching/Videos/Video_Pitching_MarshallPitchingMotion_Buchanan_CF_ 001.gif

FRAME 17-19. Notice how doesn't try to keep his fingers on top of the ball. Instead, by Frame 17 his fingers are by the side of the ball and by Frame 19 his fingers are under the ball. This lack of late pitching forearm turnover should help to protect both his elbow and shoulder. This also puts him in a position of supination which will enable him to powerfully pronate his forearm through the release point.

FRAME 20. Notice the hip/shoulder separation. I'd put it at around 60 degrees, which is good. However, I think the problem (and the reason for the lower velocity of many Marshall-trained pitchers) is that he kind of sits at this separation angle. This dissipates the benefits due to the SSC.

FRAME 25-26. I see some scap loading, but not too much. One thing that concerns me about this frame is the height of the PAS elbow. It's a little high, IMO.

FRAME 27-29. You can see some external rotation of the PAS upper arm (aka reverse pitching forearm bounce), but not as much as some pitchers because his elbow isn't bent 90 degrees (which is good).

FRAME 30-31. While this pitcher drives his PAS knee foreward, and doesn't leave his PAS foot behind on the rubber, he's a little late in doing this, which may cost him a few MPH. Also notice the 3/4 to High 3/4 arm slot. This pitcher doesn't have the same huge head jerk as Jeff Sparks, but he does have some head jerk.

[Chris O'Leary]

The delivery reminds me of an Iron Mike, and pie throwing...

The pie throwing reference isn't really accurate (or at least meaningful).

While that's true in Frames 19-23, the arm action is really pretty conventional.

Also, you could accuse Juan Marichal of throwing pies, and last I checked he did OK.

[Go Cardinals]

I can't stand watching this clip. It disturbs me... look at his leg after he realeases. It looks like its going to snap off of hyper extension

[TG Coach]

DEE ...

Thank you for taking the baton. I can't do the "Marshall doesn't optimize pitching potential debate", "Show me just one damn success" and "Jeff Sparks is not a stud pitcher" debate again.

[bronxkid]

Juan Marichal and this clip is like comparing Apples and Oranges.

I know a great pie throwing contest at a local bar is anyone is interested. :shhh:

[Chris O'Leary]

DEE ...

Thank you for taking the baton. I can't do the "Marshall doesn't optimize pitching potential debate", "Show me just one damn success" and "Jeff Sparks is not a stud pitcher" debate again.

My point isn't to start a debate, just to explain to people exactly what Marshall is advocating.

I also happen to agree that Marshall's guys aren't all they could be.

[fastbal95]

Chris,

Just wondering if you have a PhD in exercise phys and kinesiology, played MLB for 14 yrs and won a CY Young and numerous other awards and records? Also have you spent 40 yrs researching pitching injuries? For that matter anyone on this site done the above??? Didnt think so. Case closed. By the way, how come you never returned my email last year?

Whether or not anyone here chooses to believe or not does not make something true or not. It either is or it isn't. One day soon everyone here will see, but things take time. This summer just might be the year.

[Chris O'Leary]

By the way, how come you never returned my email last year?

Because of its length and because it was obvious that you weren't really familiar with my work.

For example, if you read what I wrote, you would know that I don't advocate supination through the release point. I advocate pronation through the release point. However, to pronate through the release point you first have to supinate the forearm.

If you took the time, you'd see that while I'm skeptical and cautious, I'm mostly on your side.

Also, as I have told Kharma multiple times, you guys need to stop attacking people who are on your side. I'm on the inside of MLB and am trying to make your case (where it holds up).

But your behavior isn't helping.

[Postblank]

The pie throwing reference isn't really accurate (or at least meaningful).

While that's true in Frames 19-23, the arm action is really pretty conventional.That's because it is mostly a conventional arm action. Sam is a poor representative of the motion as far as getting the gist across. He won't injure himself throwing like that, but it's far from an effective grasp of the motion.

DEE ...

Thank you for taking the baton. I can't do the "Marshall doesn't optimize pitching potential debate", "Show me just one damn success" and "Jeff Sparks is not a stud pitcher" debate again.If the best Dee can muster one post in is a picture of pie throwing, I think you wouldn't be sitting out of that debate long before having to jump in and dig him out.

[Chris O'Leary]

That's because it is mostly a conventional arm action. Sam is a poor representative of the motion as far as getting the gist across. He won't injure himself throwing like that, but it's far from an effective grasp of the motion.

Who's a better representation?

Can you get me a clip that I can convert into an animated GIF?

[Postblank]

Who's a better representation?

Can you get me a clip that I can convert into an animated GIF?
I will check. But I don't have the means myself of grabbing footage off Doc's website, but it's up there on 2007 Analysis (http://www.drmikemarshall.com/AnalysisofDrMarshalls2007BaseballPitchers.html).

EDIT: Crap, lishosting is down. EDIT2: Never mind, it's back up.

[fastbal95]

Chris,

If you were truly " on our side" then maybe you should actually come down and and see us workout and throw. We would love to have you. Kharma, his brother, and the guy who runs maxxtraining.com are coming down on Jan 12th. Someone who works for a MLB organization will be down here in Jan about a week before those guys. Maybe you should try coming down around then.

[Chris O'Leary]

I will check. But I don't have the means myself of grabbing footage off Doc's website, but it's up there on 2007 Analysis (http://www.drmikemarshall.com/AnalysisofDrMarshalls2007BaseballPitchers.html).

Crap, lishosting is down.

I've got the DVD's but haven't yet found a tool that will let me get the file off of the DVD in a format that UGA will accept. It would be best if Doc could send me the raw file in AVI or MPG format.

Also, I will host any GIFs on my site so you don't have to deal with Lishosting. Also, you can't easily go frame by frame through clips in WMP.

I'm on your side, but I'm also cautious.

[Chris O'Leary]

Chris, If you were truly " on our side" then maybe you should actually come down and and see us workout and throw. We would love to have you. Kharma, his brother, and the guy who runs maxxtraining.com are coming down on Jan 12th. Someone who works for a MLB organization will be down here in Jan about a week before those guys. Maybe you should try coming down around then.

I'm trying.

I saw Doc in June/July when he came up to St. Louis, which is better than nothing.

[Deemax]

How much does Doc's instruction cost?

[fastbal95]

The video honestly does not do us justice. Seeing is believing though, would you agree? A retired journalist from St. Louis watched the video and spoke with Doc many many times. When he came down and actually saw us in action, he was amazed, his words. He said that seeing us in action was way better than just watching the video. Thats why when Doc spoke in Chicago I went there to demonstrate. And when he was in Houston, Jeff went. People at both places were amazed at what we could do. I had countless questions from people, especially about the curve, lol. They wanted to know how we could get so much spin velocity, on all our pitches.

Chris, if you came down here, you could stay with us if you wanted so you wouldnt have to pay for a hotel. All you would have to do would be get a flight down here. I'll even pick you up at the airport. We welcome any and all visitors. You should really get down here.

Deemax, Doc charges 10 per day to train for 280 days. After 2800 dollars and 280 days, if you choose to come back and train again, then its free. He charges us 10 per day for rent and our share of the electric. Returning guys are free to find their own place to live while first year guys are required to live here. Its just easier to live here because we can role out of bed and just go train. We train 7 days per week for 280 straight days at 9 am till about 10:30 or 11am.

[Postblank]

I've got the DVD's but haven't yet found a tool that will let me get the file off of the DVD in a format that UGA will accept. It would be best if Doc could send me the raw file in AVI or MPG format.You could probably ask him. I know he's having technical problems lately so I don't know what he has immediately at his disposal.

I'm on your side, but I'm also cautious.And we are likewise cautious of those who are cautious. Animal skepticism, if you will.

As far as the best representative from the 2007 pack goes, I'd say overall Sparks is still the prime choice. But once the 2008 Analysis comes out, I think Mike Farrenkopf will be the one to watch for. Maybe Charlie Long if he trains in Florida 4-5 days before getting taped.

[Maxx]

Chris, I can confirm that I will be there January 12th. I will be in Tampa Friday night and Saturday night as well--hoping to talk some baseball, training, doin it up right..... :)

[Deemax]

What are the age ranges of the pitchers that were featured on Doc's site?

[Shake Zula]

What are the age ranges of the pitchers that were featured on Doc's site?

I looked at the site and I think they were mostly in late 10's and early 20's

[Jake Patterson]

What are the age ranges of the pitchers that were featured on Doc's site?

When I was there they ranged in age 16-30-something. The 30-something was a former pro

[Deemax]

Deemax, Doc charges 10 per day to train for 280 days.

When do you guys have time to play in competitive games? Does Doc have a team?

[Postblank]

When do you guys have time to play in competitive games? Does Doc have a team?
We don't play competitively during training cycles. Most guys play in the summer after a 280 program until they're good enough to leave and play college or pro. Me and two other guys are doing the full program in 730-some days, at which point we can do training during offseasons.

[Deemax]

Where are the pitchers listed on Docs site currently playing when not training (school/pro team/legion/ ect...)

Are there any current college or pro players using doc's methods when they compete in games? If so, where are they? I'm curious what type of numbers they are putting up.

[fastbal95]

Doc only trains biologically or physically mature pitchers. So in reality, guys who have just graduated high school or older.

[cosmo34]

I'm not gonna lie- I don't like it one bit.

Can someone explain why one would want to throw like that- besides the supposed decreased chance of injury?

Edit- And without pointing out that "Marshall has done this, he's done that". Doesn't automatically make it right nor do I care what he's done.

And don't turn this into an XX flame war. Please just explain why.

[Postblank]

I'm not gonna lie- I don't like it one bit.

Can someone explain why one would want to throw like that- besides the supposed decreased chance of injury?

And don't turn this into an SE flame war. Please just explain why.
Besides being able to throw everyday injury-free, I choose to train with Mike Marshall because I get to learn to throw a variety of high-quality pitches and get as close to my personal maximum velocity as I can. I don't care what people think it does or doesn't look like because when you're on the mound, it doesn't matter.

What's a XX flame war? I'm bad with acronyms.

[cosmo34]

AKA flying off the handle at someone when they don't understand/debate/question your material because they are ignorant/biased.

Could you go into more depth about how you feel it helped you fully develop your velocity?

[Postblank]

Could you go into more depth about how you feel it helped you fully develop your velocity?

I haven't completed my first training program yet, so I can't really comment on fully developing velocity yet. But so far I've been learning to apply force to the ball in as straight a line as possible. It takes a while to get the hang of, but even now I'll get a ball occasionally that just rifles out of my hand and make me wonder "Did I just do that and how can I do that again?"

[RIstar]

How hard do you throw post blank?

[Postblank]

How hard do you throw post blank?
My first day down here I was taped and clocked throwing traditionally at 52-56 mph. I'm not getting clocked again until May, which I imagine will yield a noticeably higher speed.

[Deemax]

My first day down here I was taped and clocked throwing traditionally at 52-56 mph. I'm not getting clocked again until May, which I imagine will yield a noticeably higher speed.

How old are you, and are you coming off of a serious injury?

[RIstar]

no offense to you but on your 1st day throwing that was slow because I'm right handed and throw low to mid 70's right handed and left handed I throw 50-55 MPH with my fastball.

PS I can throw both hands but only throw right handed in game I fool around with left hand but still can get 50-55MPH.

[Postblank]

How old are you, and are you coming off of a serious injury?23 and I was dealing with a SLAP tear.

no offense to you but on your 1st day throwing that was slow because I'm right handed and throw low to mid 70's right handed and left handed I throw 50-55 MPH with my fastball.None taken, I suppose.

[Deemax]

Are there any stats that show how Marshalls students performed against competition? Who can we watch for in the upcoming months?

[Postblank]

Are there any stats that show how Marshalls students performed against competition? Who can we watch for in the upcoming months?A couple guys have pitched for Becker College, and another guy who throws 89-91 is joining the remaining guy this year. I'm having difficulty tracking down their stats (Div III college). Jeff's stats are easily tracked down on Baseball Cube, as is Joe Williams run in the Mets organization before his injury.

But some guys to keep an eye on this year:
- Jeff Sparks (Bridgeport Bluefish, Atlantic League)
- Joe Williams (Possibly also Bridgeport)
- Ken Wise (Becker College). Ken does a leg kick outside of the facility and reportedly reverse rotates, but I'll list him anyway.

[TG Coach]

How much does Doc's instruction cost?

The pitcher's career. DEE, you won't get straight answers on Marshall's pitchers pitching in competition. But they'll run Sparks up the flagpole as a success. Check out Sparks' numbers on baseballcube. The guy can't throw strikes. Pardon my lack of an ovation, but a pitcher for an 8-20 D3 team in Massachusetts isn't much of an accomplishment for forty years of research and development. Would Reed Metz be one of Marshall's pitchers. The name sounds familar. Plus he's from Florida. He had a shining 7.07 ERA in D3. Does net result in competition mean anything to Marshallites?

[Postblank]

The pitcher's career.
:highfive:

[Ursa Major]

Chris, is Coach45's (or whatever his moniker is) son still working with the Doc? He mailed me a couple of film clips that were pretty amazing. And the young man was a well-built stud, so you had a fair chance to see what a real specimen could do. I know Coach's plan was to keep his son away from college competition for a year or so to see where the work in Zephyr Hills would get him. Nice family -- I'd love to see him break out.

[TG Coach]

DEE, In the minors do they sit you out of competition for a year or two to develop skills?

[fastbal95]

They arent really good at "developing" skills in the minors. They just ride your talent till you cant do it anymore. You will here a thousand different ideas from a thousand different pitching coaches. So I will give them credit for at least trying, but they really dont know much. Pretty much all pitching coaches in the minors played pro ball, so they do have their own experience to go on, but a lot, if not most, have no real education past high school or never graduated college and do not know how the body operates. They really have no scientific evidence to back up what they teach. I had some guys I really couldnt stand and I had some great guys as pitching coaches, but none of them really knew what they were talking about.

If it takes one year or even two years to develop skills that allow you to pitch every single day and have pitches that make it real hard for hitters to acutally hit the ball, wouldnt it then be worth it in the long run? Usually the best things in life dont come easy, they take a while and take hard work. But in todays society, everyone just wans a magic pill that will make things happen right away. We have been very lazy as a society here in America and it is becoming our downfall.

[TG Coach]

Have you ever drank the Kool Aid! I thought I asked DEE.

[fastbal95]

TG,

Well I am sorry. I thought all were free to answer questions on here; my fault. But how would DEE know if he doesnt have any experience with minor league baseball? Im not saying he doesnt, just that he might not, so then might not know.

[Jake Patterson]

A couple guys have pitched for Becker College, and another guy who throws 89-91 is joining the remaining guy this year. I'm having difficulty tracking down their stats (Div III college). Jeff's stats are easily tracked down on Baseball Cube, as is Joe Williams run in the Mets organization before his injury.

But some guys to keep an eye on this year:
- Jeff Sparks (Bridgeport Bluefish, Atlantic League)
- Joe Williams (Possibly also Bridgeport)
- Ken Wise (Becker College). Ken does a leg kick outside of the facility and reportedly reverse rotates, but I'll list him anyway.

Becker in Worcester??

[Jake Patterson]

They arent really good at "developing" skills in the minors. They just ride your talent till you cant do it anymore.

On this I would tend to agree. You would have a better chance at recieving good training in a good DIII or JUCO program.

[TG Coach]

TG,

Well I am sorry. I thought all were free to answer questions on here; my fault. But how would DEE know if he doesnt have any experience with minor league baseball? Im not saying he doesnt, just that he might not, so then might not know.

I know DEE's background. That's why I directed my comment to him.

[TG Coach]

On this I would tend to agree. You would have a better chance at recieving good training in a good DIII or JUCO program.

I would agree or disagree based on how various farm systems are run. My comment was based on an almost word for word response of how Marshall responds to the scenario. As for Becker, it's not a quality D3. It's just a D3. A quality D3 program would be like a Trinity University in Texas.

Jake ... There's a connect the dots from Marshall to Becker in MA. The coach played for Saint Leo's. Marshall coached there for a while.

[fastbal95]

Actually,

the link is a guy who used to train here went there before he found out about Doc. He convinced a few guys to go there. He hasnt returned though.

[Postblank]

The pitcher's career. DEE, you won't get straight answers on Marshall's pitchers pitching in competition. But they'll run Sparks up the flagpole as a success. Check out Sparks' numbers on baseballcube. The guy can't throw strikes. Pardon my lack of an ovation, but a pitcher for an 8-20 D3 team in Massachusetts isn't much of an accomplishment for forty years of research and development. Would Reed Metz be one of Marshall's pitchers. The name sounds familar. Plus he's from Florida. He had a shining 7.07 ERA in D3. Does net result in competition mean anything to Marshallites?If you were working from a larger sample size, you might have a point. Jeff's stats generally aren't very impressive, but I don't think he would've got as far as he did throwing differently. His achievement in high competition might not be good enough for you, the quality of D3 school that leaves our pitchers alone might not be good enough for you. That leads me to believe that short of producing a clone army of injury-free Walter Johnsons, nothing would change your mind on our system.

And Reed is an idiot. I've never seen him pitch (which to my knowledge he no longer does) but if his ability is equal to his stupidity, that 7 ERA is appropriate. You have to keep in mind that Doc will take basically anyone that wants to dedicate themselves to the training. I pitched maybe 3 innings of rec. ball past Little League and Doc let me come down and train.

Chris, is Coach45's (or whatever his moniker is) son still working with the Doc? He mailed me a couple of film clips that were pretty amazing. And the young man was a well-built stud, so you had a fair chance to see what a real specimen could do. I know Coach's plan was to keep his son away from college competition for a year or so to see where the work in Zephyr Hills would get him. Nice family -- I'd love to see him break out.His son is no longer training with Doc. Coach got the wise idea to start pushing his own motion to "fill in the gaps" that the Marshall motion "left open." One of our guys just went back to CO and apparently his son hasn't been doing the training for about a month. I'm going leave it at that and check the vitriol at the door, because I'd like this to actually be read.

Becker in Worcester??
I know it's in MA, so that's probably the one.

[TG Coach]

"His son is no longer training with Doc. Coach got the wise idea to start pimping his own motion to "fill in the gaps" that the Marshall motion "left open." One of our guys just went back to CO and apparently his son hasn't been doing the training for about a month. I'm going leave it at that and check the vitriol at the door, because I'd like this to actually be read."

You mean someone who had an idea outside the realm of The Marshall Plan was excommunicated from the cult? Relax. Have some Kool Aid.

[wrstdude]

A couple guys have pitched for Becker College, and another guy who throws 89-91 is joining the remaining guy this year. I'm having difficulty tracking down their stats (Div III college). Jeff's stats are easily tracked down on Baseball Cube, as is Joe Williams run in the Mets organization before his injury.

But some guys to keep an eye on this year:
- Jeff Sparks (Bridgeport Bluefish, Atlantic League)
- Joe Williams (Possibly also Bridgeport)
- Ken Wise (Becker College). Ken does a leg kick outside of the facility and reportedly reverse rotates, but I'll list him anyway.

:rofl:

I'll assume the injury was sustained because of NOT using Marshall's mechanics...lol

[beemax]

On this I would tend to agree. You would have a better chance at recieving good training in a good DIII or JUCO program.

Jake, do you have the ecperience and a D III or JUCO to back up that statement? I played at a D I and now I am in pro ball. I strongly disagree with what you said there.

Here is my whole take on this, from a hitter's view mind you. But I am a hitter who had a father the pitched in pro ball for seven years and a brother who pitched D I for four. I respect that Mike Marshall has done so much research on how the body works. I respect that he stands by what he says and teaches what he believes. I know many disagree with how he teaches pitching, myself included. Again, I am not a pitching instructor, but it is not hard to see that he teaches his pitchers to do things mechanically that we don't see in the big leagues.

IMHO, the act of pitching is very hard on the human body. That is why starters get 4 days rest at the highest level of baseball in the world and relievers only throw an inning or two at a time, if that.

I believe that Dr. Marshall has found a way to pitch while preventing injury. I just don't think he has found a way to pitch in the Major Leagues while preventing injury. The positions that the majority of MLB pitchers get themselves into while throwing risks injury, and IMO that is because in order to pitch with location, movement, and deception (the three rules of pitching my father taught me) you have to do so.

I am all for thinking outside the box, which is where I can appreciate the research Dr. Marshall has done. However, what Dr. Marshall teaches is not the way he threw in the Major Leagues. I read one of his articles online where he stated that if he threw with these mechanics he would have been even better, won more Cy Young's, etc. Until one of his students proves that you can pitch that way effectively in the major leagues, I believe his current teachings amount to nothing more than mad science.

Is there any video of his pitchers throwing from the stretch?

[fastbal95]

TG,

He was not excommunicated. They left on their own. They are always welcome to come back down here. I would tell you the whole story but Im not sure Jake would let me post it. Thats ok though. And if Pat ever figured out what he needs to fix, he could actually pitch at a high level.

[Postblank]

I believe that Dr. Marshall has found a way to pitch while preventing injury. I just don't think he has found a way to pitch in the Major Leagues while preventing injury. The positions that the majority of MLB pitchers get themselves into while throwing risks injury, and IMO that is because in order to pitch with location, movement, and deception (the three rules of pitching my father taught me) you have to do so.I don't really understand what this means. Could you clarify?

Is there any video of his pitchers throwing from the stretch?
http://www.drmikemarshall.com/AnalysisofDrMarshalls2007BaseballPitchers.html

We don't really throw from a stretch, per se. But there's a set position and a wind up.

[fastbal95]

beemax,

Thanks for chiming in. I can appreciate your comments. You are right that Doc didnt pitch exactly the way that he teaches now. It took him 40 yrs to figure everything out. Things take time, as Im sure you know.

Actually we are starting to see what Doc teaches mechanically in the big leagues. What we dont see is the whole motion and training program. I believe we will, it is just going to take some time.

The act of pitching using the traditional motion is hard, very hard on the body. You are correct. And they do need that rest to recover from the damage they do, but when they cant recover, thats when they get injured and land on the DL or worse. We can throw as hard as we can every single day off of a mound because of our training program and because of our mechanics. You are incorrect when you say though that in order to throw with location, movement, and deception you need to put yourself in risk for injury. You just need to see us throw. I can understand what you mean about having someone using his motion throw in the big leagues, people want "proof". But this does not validate if Doc is right or wrong. What validates his motion is the science behind it. But having someone pitch using his mechanics at a high level would open peoples eyes I believe. When you go spring training you should stop in Zephyrhills, Fl and come see us throw one day. You just might see some things you have never seen before. Thats if you have it in Fl? What team ya with?

We dont necessarily throw from the stretch. We could, but it would shorten our driveline. So not sure you'll find any recent video of us throwing from the stretch.

[beemax]

beemax,

We can throw as hard as we can every single day off of a mound because of our training program and because of our mechanics. You are incorrect when you say though that in order to throw with location, movement, and deception you need to put yourself in risk for injury. You just need to see us throw. I can understand what you mean about having someone using his motion throw in the big leagues, people want "proof". But this does not validate if Doc is right or wrong. What validates his motion is the science behind it. But having someone pitch using his mechanics at a high level would open peoples eyes I believe.

We dont necessarily throw from the stretch. We could, but it would shorten our driveline. So not sure you'll find any recent video of us throwing from the stretch.

Fastball95,

I am a frequenter of the HS**W so excuse me if I am rushing to judgement here. I am new to this site but I have been reading up on your posts and I think I am getting the idea of what you believe in.

I've seen a few quotes, as the one above here, where you talk about throwing as hard as you can every day off of a mound without injury. If that is true, that is great.

What I don't see is you talking about location or deception with the pitches. I've seen a few videos of Dr. Marshall's students. As a hitter I would have zero fear of going into the box against one of them because they throw high 3/4 and stride in a straight line at you. There is no deception to the delivery. Why were hitters unsuccessful against Randy Johnson? His arms and legs flying everywhere and he threw very low 3/4. He threw with not only great stuff, but great deception and location. What about Francisco Rodriguez? Arms and legs flying everywhere. Great deception, along with great stuff and location. The list of these All-Stars goes on and on...

I am not advocating the arms and legs flying everywhere. What I am advocating is getting hitters out. These guys do it pretty darn good, and because of the way they do it, they can't throw every day.

From the statistics I have seen with Dr. Marshall's students, they may be able to throw hard everyday but they struggle getting people out.

Getting people out is the point of pitching right? I hear a lot of talk about velocity and throwing everyday, but not much about evidence of these guys getting people out.

Someone mentioned Maddux and Glavine in regards to scap loading. I'm not getting into scap loading, but you said that they could throw harder if they changed their mechanics. That may be true, but why would they want to? The video of Maddux in one of these threads is one my Dad took in Las Vegas the first winter after he broke into the big leagues. At that time he could throw over 90 whenever he wanted, and it got him into trouble. Once he learned that he could take velo off of his fastball to increase movement and location, 340+ wins is what he got. I'll bring Jaimie Moyer into this convo as well. The three of them rarely throw over 85, yet they all are pitching into their forties and two of them have over 300 wins. That's science enough for me.

Pitching is not just mechanics or throwing as hard as you can. Maddux, Glavine, and Moyer all locate and move the ball as a means of decieving the hitter.

Hitters hate facing these guys because they know they won't get blown away yet they rarely do much off of them.

As a hitter I love facing pitchers that throw hard and have no deception. From what I can see in the videos, Dr. Marshall's students have just that.

[fastbal95]

Beemax,

HS**W? What is that? Anyways, thanks for writing back. We havent talk about location or deception is because all everyone else can talk about is well can you throw hard using MM mechanics, or you cant throw as hard if you use his mechanics. I hope that helps.

I would love for you to come down here before you go to Viera, I hope thats how you spell it? Or maybe I could be over there and you could see for yourself. I would love for you to step in the box against me and tell me what you think. Watching a video does not do justice to what we can accomplish with the ball. Just like when you watch a MLB game on tv it looks easy to hit, you know as well as I do that it is extremely difficult. Im glad you are advocating getting hitters out. I advocate that as well. As long as you can get guys out who cares if you dont lift your leg, etc....

This past summer I played in a collegiate summer league. The league consisted of college players, and older ex college playes and ex minor leaguers. It would qualify as the best competition I faced, like pro ball, but also not the worst. In 28 innings I gave up 14 hits, walked 19, struck out 43 with an ERA of 1.1 something. The people who faced me can tell you I know how to get hitters out. Now it helped that I played pro ball and college ball first, because I have mound presence and I know how to pitch. With that being said, I would love for us to meet on a field and for you to hit off me, then you can give me your opinion. How does that sound?

[Jake Patterson]

A quality D3 program would be like a Trinity University in Texas.
Or Eastern CT State.

[beemax]

True, watching video is not the same as standing in the box, and I would love to face you. That sounds great. If you want to line something up, I will be in Viera in March for Spring Training.

You say you haven't talked about location or deception because of what everone else wants to talk about. That's fine, but I want to talk about location and deception, so lets talk about it. Does MM talk about it, advocate it, or teach it? Do you believe it is a key to pitching, as I was taught?

Walking 19 college hitters in 28 innings is not a stat that would lead me to say that a pitcher has good location. As an ex pro player, I would expect you to put up the numbers you did against college and ex pro players, minus the walks. I'm not sure what that proves.

I am sure MM teaches with the goal of getting his students to reach their potential. Maybe you have reached it, but until a MM student proves that he can get hitters out at the pro level, whether it be the minor leagues or major leagues, I'll hold my beliefs.

That being said, again, I would love to see what you have to offer on the mound. If you impress me I would be more than happy to so whatever I can to give you an opportunity to pitch in pro ball again. I'm always open to debate, and to competition as well.

[Jake Patterson]

Jake, do you have the ecperience and a D III or JUCO to back up that statement? I played at a D I and now I am in pro ball. I strongly disagree with what you said there.

Here is my whole take on this, from a hitter's view mind you. But I am a hitter who had a father the pitched in pro ball for seven years and a brother who pitched D I for four. I respect that Mike Marshall has done so much research on how the body works. I respect that he stands by what he says and teaches what he believes. I know many disagree with how he teaches pitching, myself included. Again, I am not a pitching instructor, but it is not hard to see that he teaches his pitchers to do things mechanically that we don't see in the big leagues.

IMHO, the act of pitching is very hard on the human body. That is why starters get 4 days rest at the highest level of baseball in the world and relievers only throw an inning or two at a time, if that.

I believe that Dr. Marshall has found a way to pitch while preventing injury. I just don't think he has found a way to pitch in the Major Leagues while preventing injury. The positions that the majority of MLB pitchers get themselves into while throwing risks injury, and IMO that is because in order to pitch with location, movement, and deception (the three rules of pitching my father taught me) you have to do so.

I am all for thinking outside the box, which is where I can appreciate the research Dr. Marshall has done. However, what Dr. Marshall teaches is not the way he threw in the Major Leagues. I read one of his articles online where he stated that if he threw with these mechanics he would have been even better, won more Cy Young's, etc. Until one of his students proves that you can pitch that way effectively in the major leagues, I believe his current teachings amount to nothing more than mad science.


Beemax,
There is not much here we disagree on...

[fastbal95]

Doc talks about movement every single day. Velocity is great, but its not the end all of pitching. Whats gets hitters out is movement, and late movment at that, last ten feet if you will. By the time the ball gets ten feet away from the hitter, the brain and eyes cannot communicate fast enough to see what the ball does. So basically the hitter is swinging where he thinks the ball is before the last ten feet. Make the ball move in that ten feet and you have a pretty good chance of fooling the hitter. So we agree on that I guess. Good stuff.

As for walks, they arent as bad as you think. Walk 3 batters in a row and you have given up zero runs. Give up 3 hits and you've at least given up one run, at the very least. Runners cannot go first to third on a walk, but they can on a hit. They cannot score from second on a walk, but can on a hit. Im not saying that walks are necessarily good, just that its not walks that really hurts pitchers, but hits; extra base ones at that. Does this make sense to you? Walks coupled with hits are devestating though, yes. I am guessing that when you think of a walk, you think of a pitcher not being able to locate his fastball and just throwing balls. When we pitch, if we walk a batter it would be on the nastied pitch we could throw, not just throwing a fastball to the hitter. Pitchers need to challenge themselves to throw the right pitches in tough situations, not challenge hitters with fastballs. Would you agree?

As far as the guys who train with Doc reaching their potential, its up to the pitcher, not Doc. Doc can tell them over and over what they need to do to be successful, but when it comes down to it, the pitcher needs to do it for themselves. That is one of the challenges for us down here and something that breaks Doc's heart you could say.

When it gets closer to the time you will be coming down to Fl we should def meet up. If you could take a short detour to Zephyrhills, just outside of Tampa, that would be great. If not, I'm sure I could drive to the ocean side. If you could set up something on one of your fields that would be cool. I've pitched there before in spring training. And I can completely understand that people want proof. Thats how things are in this world. We have shown scientifc proof, but people want pitching proof and that is fine. I am willing to throw in front of whoever and throw to whoever. This summer just might be the time where people will be able to see it for themselves.

P.S. Tell Flo, ( Jesus Flores) he's a lazy catcher, hahaha. He was a catcher of mine. Im glad he's in the bigs though now, good for him.

[TG Coach]

As for walks, they arent as bad as you think. Walk 3 batters in a row and you have given up zero runs.

I knew this was coming from having been given the pitch before. I want to stay on the periphery of this conversation. But, I have a question. Do you (or should I say Marshall since everyone talks the KoolAid) believe a pitcher who walks a lot of hitters has command of his pitches? What typically happens to pitchers lacking command when they come in the strike zone unless they're a Johnson or a Ryan who can just smoke hitters?

I'm not interested in a big pitch on Marshall. I've heard it to death. I'm only curious about your answers to the questions. I won't buy into Marshall until I see continued results on the field at a significant level of play (college/pro). All I see is failure and a lot of secrets on who uses his methodology. Promoting Sparks as a stud is laughable. His record speaks for itself. So let's not go there.

[fastbal95]

TG,

This question doesnt have just a yes or no answer. I would have to say on how the pitcher walked the batters. Most walks I see, not all but most, are where pitchers have trouble throwing their fastball in the strike zone; throw fastball after fastball but keep walking guys. I will only speak for myself about my walks. When I walked people this summer, none were on fastballs. If I had 3 balls on a hitter with no strikes. Then I would practice the first pitch I was going to throw to the next hitter. If that was a strike, then great. If not, no big deal, I've already moved on. On 3-1 I'm practicing the second pitch to the next hitter. If I get to two strikes then I am trying to throw the nasiest curveball and screwball I can. I challenge myself to throw tuff pitches in tuff situations. So when I get into those situations in the future, I will have practiced it and be better at it. I never challenge the hitters. I challenge myself. Again this is just me, you'd have to ask other guys what they do, I cant speak for them. So to answer your question, it depends. I never said that I try to walk hitters. I just dont think they are as bad as hits. Id rather walk a guy then give in a watch him rip a double off the wall. Im not advocating walks, just they are less bad or worse than hits. Make sense? And to your second question about what typically happens, I would have to say it also depends. Guys can get away with it, and some cant. Those who cant typically get hit hard. I can remember when I hit in college and faced those guys.

I can understand why you wont buy in. Be sceptical. Have you ever visited Zephyrhills and seen us throw though. Maybe you should. If you see someone have success does that mean that then you will buy in then? When you said all you see if failure, exactly what do you mean? And what secrets are you alluding to? Can you be more specific? Ive never promoted Jeff as a stud. I will say though that 600 something strikeouts in 400 something innings is pretty good. Wouldn't you? Jeff's record does speak for itself, he has his own issues. I am not him. But lets remember that out off everyone who plays baseball, what percent actually make it to the bigs? Less than one percent. And Jeff actually made it and no one can take that away from him, no matter how he did when he was there. Fair?

[scorekeeper]

fastbal95,

I sure appreciate you and almost everyone else doing a fine of containing so much of the venom that usually comes out when MM becomes a topic of discussion in baseball circles. I think its great that so many people are at least willing to keep open minds! That in itself is a quantum leap from not very long ago.

Unfortunately, there will always be at least a few people who wouldn’t believe, even if a student of his made it to the ML and won 3 straight Cy Youngs! Then the argument would be that he was a fluke, why was he the only one, or some other kind of rationalization that would mean they didn’t have to admit even the slightest possibility they were mistaken.

Just out of curiosity, how do you compare your very best success throwing “conventionally” with the way you’re throwing now?

[fastbal95]

scorekeeper,

My very best success had to be my senior year in college. I was extremely dominant. 36 inning scoreless streak and an ERA under 1.00 for the whole year until my start. Now my pitches are of higher quality. My curveball is devastating, and I also throw a screwball now which is much better than the old circle change I threw. Instead of just a fastball, now I have a fastball that moves one direction and another in the other direction. My sinker is comparible to the split finger that i threw before. My pitches now are much, much better!

One has to remember that I have only been throwing Doc's "way" for about one year now. My best year throwing traditionally I had years and years of practice. So its a little hard to compare seeing as I had far more experience throwing the other way, but I would still say that I am definately much more skilled and a better pitcher. I will be even better when I finish the last of the recoil cycles. Right now I am doing 25 lbs wrist weights and finishing up the 10 lb lead ball recoil. By the end of March I will be maintaining with 30 lb wrist weights and a 12 lb lead ball. Also, the strength I have gained from doing this program is incredible. I am far more stronger than I have ever been.

With all the discussions about Mike Marshall's mechanics, I am reminded of a quote I read by a German philosopher around 1850 I think. This isnt verbatim, but you get the gist of it. He said that all truths must pass through three stages. The first stage is one of ridicule. The second stage the truth is vehemently opposed and attacked. Finally, the third stage is where it is finally accepted and embraced. I wish I had the name of the philosopher. Can anyone help me here? Remember, at one time the scientific community, along with the world, believed the world to be flat. And wasnt Galileo burned at the stake as a heratic for saying it was round? Later, it was found out that the world is actually not flat but round like a globe. It may take until after Doc dies for his ideas to catch on, but they will, one day.

[beemax]

As for walks, they arent as bad as you think. Walk 3 batters in a row and you have given up zero runs. Give up 3 hits and you've at least given up one run, at the very least.

Im not saying that walks are necessarily good, just that its not walks that really hurts pitchers, but hits; extra base ones at that. Does this make sense to you? Walks coupled with hits are devestating though, yes.

I am guessing that when you think of a walk, you think of a pitcher not being able to locate his fastball and just throwing balls.

When we pitch, if we walk a batter it would be on the nastied pitch we could throw, not just throwing a fastball to the hitter.

Pitchers need to challenge themselves to throw the right pitches in tough situations, not challenge hitters with fastballs. Would you agree?



Are you saying that when you pitch, all of your walks happen on only the nastiest pitch you can throw? Since you started working with MM, have you ever walked a guy on a fastball? I find that hard to believe.

I agree 100% that pitchers need to throw the right pitches in tough situations. That should go without saying.

I disagree with the argument about walks not hurting pitchers more than hits. That statement is saying that you pitch for the strikeout over contact, IMO.

There are situations where you need a strikeout and if you can get one, it's great. But pitchers need to pitch to contact as well.

Hits happen. If a guy gives up three straight hits on jam shots, the manager won't hold that against him. But if a pitcher walks three straight, no matter how he does it, he's probably going to come out of the game. If not after the third walk, it will probably be a lot sooner than if he hadn't walked those guys because his pitch count will be greatly increased. See the difference?

I also understand that there are situations that call for pitching around a hitter, but the argument that walks aren't as bad as hits is off. I hope my point in the previous paragraph illustrates that.

I know that you aren't advocating walks, but walks always hurt pitchers. It gets their pitch count up, gets them pitching in the stretch, and puts the runners 90 feet closer to home. True, a walk is not an extra base hit, but if you give up that EBH on the first pitch, wouldn't you get more of a chance to work out of it because your pitch count is lower than if you had walked him?

Oh by the way, how does MM teach you guys throw from the stretch?

If you walk a hitter with nobody on and one out, would you rather strike out the the next two on 6 or more pitches or get a double play with one pitch? Would you be able to work deeper into games with that one pitch double play or the 6+ pitches?

Point being: walks are bad, pitching to contact is not.

[scorekeeper]

My very best success had to be my senior year in college. I was extremely dominant. 36 inning scoreless streak and an ERA under 1.00 for the whole year until my start. Now my pitches are of higher quality. My curveball is devastating, and I also throw a screwball now which is much better than the old circle change I threw. Instead of just a fastball, now I have a fastball that moves one direction and another in the other direction. My sinker is comparible to the split finger that i threw before. My pitches now are much, much better!

when you say of a higher quality, I have to ask another question to try to make sure I know what you mean because quality can mean a lot of different things to a lot of people. When you make your comparison, are you taking into consideration how often you can repeat a good execution, and how well you are able to locate the pitch, or is there something else?

One has to remember that I have only been throwing Doc's "way" for about one year now. My best year throwing traditionally I had years and years of practice. So its a little hard to compare seeing as I had far more experience throwing the other way, but I would still say that I am definately much more skilled and a better pitcher. I will be even better when I finish the last of the recoil cycles. Right now I am doing 25 lbs wrist weights and finishing up the 10 lb lead ball recoil. By the end of March I will be maintaining with 30 lb wrist weights and a 12 lb lead ball. Also, the strength I have gained from doing this program is incredible. I am far more stronger than I have ever been.

I completely understand the time differential. Although with more mental maturity and a better understanding of what makes balls do what they do, its still not quite fair to compare pitchers who have been throwing for 5-10 years with someone like yourself who’d only been throwing that way for a year.

Of course I suppose it is possible to say that a year is plenty of time to learn, but then one heck of a lot of people would have to swallow a boatload of crow because they’d been advocating the need for P’s beginning to pitch at 8-9 YO! ;) Personally, I agree with not having kids pitch much before they turn 13.

With all the discussions about Mike Marshall's mechanics, I am reminded of a quote I read by a German philosopher around 1850 I think. This isnt verbatim, but you get the gist of it. He said that all truths must pass through three stages. The first stage is one of ridicule. The second stage the truth is vehemently opposed and attacked. Finally, the third stage is where it is finally accepted and embraced. I wish I had the name of the philosopher. Can anyone help me here? Remember, at one time the scientific community, along with the world, believed the world to be flat. And wasnt Galileo burned at the stake as a heratic for saying it was round? Later, it was found out that the world is actually not flat but round like a globe. It may take until after Doc dies for his ideas to catch on, but they will, one day.

Arthur Schopenhaur.
All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.

You don’t have to convince me. I have a totally open mind. ;)

The next time you talk to Mike, tell him you talked to a fellow who had just spoken to Red Adams about him, and as always, the old fart didn’t fail to tell a MM story. One of my favorites is how Red remembers Mike asking him to chart his pitches, well before anyone else was doing it.

There’s no doubt in my mind that MM is just one of those people who’s so far ahead of his time, he often comes off as a nut. Whether his pitching technique eventually replaces the “traditional” technique, I don’t know, but you’re correct in that his science is sound.

[Jake Patterson]

Arthur Schopenhaur.
All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.


We can also explore truth versus faith.

[scorekeeper]

I disagree with the argument about walks not hurting pitchers more than hits. That statement is saying that you pitch for the strikeout over contact, IMO.

The context he’s talking about walks and hits, I think he’s correct. But I don’t see him saying walks are a good thing, just less of a bad thing than hits. To be honest, I don’t see one good thing about a walk. Not because its necessarily worse than a hit, but because there’s absolutely no defense against it, while with most hits, its sometimes only a matter of luck as to whether it’s a hit or an out.

There are situations where you need a strikeout and if you can get one, it's great. But pitchers need to pitch to contact as well.

There isn’t one situation where a K is NEEDED. It might be the least risky thing that can happen as far as a defensive situation, but I don’t see it as being NEEDED.

I know that you aren't advocating walks, but walks always hurt pitchers. It gets their pitch count up, gets them pitching in the stretch, and puts the runners 90 feet closer to home. True, a walk is not an extra base hit, but if you give up that EBH on the first pitch, wouldn't you get more of a chance to work out of it because your pitch count is lower than if you had walked him?

Careful beemax. Now you’re getting’ into linear weights. If you want a lesson in whether it better to start an inning with an EBH or a BB, go over to the Stats forum. They have the numbers to prove which is “better”. Of course you’re head might explode trying to stay with those guys, but they definitely are fun. ;)

Point being: walks are bad, pitching to contact is not.

Did I miss something where fastbal95 said anything about not wanting to pitch to contact?

[scorekeeper]

We can also explore truth versus faith.

Hey, I was only answering his question, not taking a philisophical stance.:lookitup

[fastbal95]

"Are you saying that when you pitch, all of your walks happen on only the nastiest pitch you can throw? Since you started working with MM, have you ever walked a guy on a fastball? I find that hard to believe."

Dont you think every pitch a pitchers throws should try and be the nastiest pitch they can throw? I should have written a little more clearly earlier, since you do not know our pitch sequences. I have never walked a hitter on a 3-2 fastball, that is for sure, hard to believe or not.

"I disagree with the argument about walks not hurting pitchers more than hits. That statement is saying that you pitch for the strikeout over contact, IMO."

We do pitch for strikeouts over contact. Like you said before, hitters can bloop, flip, or dump balls over fielders or in front of them for hits. If you strike everyone out, there is no chance for anything like that. That doesnt make more sense to you? Strike everyone out and they cant score.

"Hits happen."

They dont have to happen. I can say the exact opposite. Walks happen, but hits dont need to.

"it will probably be a lot sooner than if he hadn't walked those guys because his pitch count will be greatly increased. See the difference?"

See when you talk about pitch counts you are still thinking in respect to the traditional pitching motion. Using the way we throw, pitch counts dont matter. We can throw as much and as often as we want. Thats what we train for. Now that isnt to say that we try and throw the most pitches possible in a game, certainly not, but just that pitch counts dont matter to us.

"but the argument that walks aren't as bad as hits is off."

This is something that we are going to disagree on. If you would do me a favor and read this, then tell me what you think. Ok?

http://drmikemarshall.com/ILoveStrikeoutsHateHitsandExtraBaseHitsandDoNotMin dWalks.html

"wouldn't you get more of a chance to work out of it because your pitch count is lower than if you had walked him?"

Again, you are thinking using the traditional pitching motion. We dont think of pitching in the sense of number of pitches, but as at bats. We throw three different types; fastballs, breaking balls, and reverse breaking balls. After a hitter has batted three times against us, then they have seen all our pitches and are at a slightly better advantage than before. So what we try to do is complete a game with every hitter batting 3 times. 27 up, 27 down. Now this is very hard to do, and it is very very very rare, but that doesnt mean that we shouldnt strive for it. Why would anyone want to strive for anything less than perfection? I hope this makes sense to you. I grew up watching the Cubs and have seen Maddox pitch many many times. A lot of times, if he made it through 3 times through the lineup, he would always come up with little things, like a tweaked hammy, or something like that, that would bring him out of the game, but wouldnt be serious. Also, a lot of the time, when he went deeper in the game, thats when he would get hit, hard. Thats not to say that he never did good more than 3 times through the lineup, but just an example.

"Oh by the way, how does MM teach you guys throw from the stretch?"

We can throw from a set position, but it shortens our driveline. Our "stretch" position though is technically a windup. Its kinda difficult to explain with words, so I think that seeing it in peson would better explain.

I would rather strike out the next two batters. Not to say I would be upset if I got a double play, but just would rather strike them both out. Why you ask? When you strike out hitters, you make them defensive. When they are defensive, they take defensive swings, when they do that they cannot take aggressive swings and hit the ball hard against you. They will also chase more pitches when they are defensive. I hope this makes sense to you.

"Point being: walks are bad, pitching to contact is not."

We disagree on this subject. I really hope you read that link and then get back to me on it. Also, even though its just anecdotal, I have a friend who played in the bigs. He now is the area scout in the midwest for the Texas Rangers. He told me that guys in the bigs who pitch to contact usually dont do well and dont last too long. Take that however you like. I personally would much rather strike out a lot, and walk some, than to give up more hits.

[fastbal95]

score,

because I pitch off a mound every single day, Id say I get more practice then any traditional pitchers on throwing strikes. I can repeatedly throw any one of my pitches where I want to, couldnt always, lol, but can now.

Take into consideration that in that year, one not only has to learn, but they have to try and unlearn all the bad habits they learned while pitching using the traditional motion. It def takes longer than a year to master it, but in one year, something who is skilled at motor skill aquisition can learn it well enough, Id say.

Thanks for finding out who's quote that was. I was wondering. I forgot, lol. I will def tell Doc what you said, no prob.

"There’s no doubt in my mind that MM is just one of those people who’s so far ahead of his time, he often comes off as a nut. Whether his pitching technique eventually replaces the “traditional” technique, I don’t know, but you’re correct in that his science is sound."

Very true. I think it will eventually. Doc thinks the curve is going to open the door. Brent Strom, who now is a roving pitching coordinator for the Cardinals, told Doc in Houston a couple weeks ago that what Doc is doing is the way to go and that he wants to start teaching the pendulem swing, straightline drive, and pronated curve to all the card pitchers. We shallsee what comes of that.

[beemax]

I have never walked a hitter on a 3-2 fastball, that is for sure, hard to believe or not.

We do pitch for strikeouts over contact. Like you said before, hitters can bloop, flip, or dump balls over fielders or in front of them for hits. If you strike everyone out, there is no chance for anything like that. That doesnt make more sense to you? Strike everyone out and they cant score.

"Hits happen."

They dont have to happen. I can say the exact opposite. Walks happen, but hits dont need to.

See when you talk about pitch counts you are still thinking in respect to the traditional pitching motion. Using the way we throw, pitch counts dont matter. We can throw as much and as often as we want. Thats what we train for. Now that isnt to say that we try and throw the most pitches possible in a game, certainly not, but just that pitch counts dont matter to us.

"but the argument that walks aren't as bad as hits is off."

This is something that we are going to disagree on. If you would do me a favor and read this, then tell me what you think. Ok?

http://drmikemarshall.com/ILoveStrikeoutsHateHitsandExtraBaseHitsandDoNotMin dWalks.html

"wouldn't you get more of a chance to work out of it because your pitch count is lower than if you had walked him?"

Again, you are thinking using the traditional pitching motion. We dont think of pitching in the sense of number of pitches, but as at bats. We throw three different types; fastballs, breaking balls, and reverse breaking balls. After a hitter has batted three times against us, then they have seen all our pitches and are at a slightly better advantage than before. So what we try to do is complete a game with every hitter batting 3 times. 27 up, 27 down. Now this is very hard to do, and it is very very very rare, but that doesnt mean that we shouldnt strive for it. Why would anyone want to strive for anything less than perfection? I hope this makes sense to you. I grew up watching the Cubs and have seen Maddox pitch many many times. A lot of times, if he made it through 3 times through the lineup, he would always come up with little things, like a tweaked hammy, or something like that, that would bring him out of the game, but wouldnt be serious. Also, a lot of the time, when he went deeper in the game, thats when he would get hit, hard. Thats not to say that he never did good more than 3 times through the lineup, but just an example.

"Oh by the way, how does MM teach you guys throw from the stretch?"

We can throw from a set position, but it shortens our driveline. Our "stretch" position though is technically a windup. Its kinda difficult to explain with words, so I think that seeing it in peson would better explain.

"Point being: walks are bad, pitching to contact is not."

We disagree on this subject. I really hope you read that link and then get back to me on it. Also, even though its just anecdotal, I have a friend who played in the bigs. He now is the area scout in the midwest for the Texas Rangers. He told me that guys in the bigs who pitch to contact usually dont do well and dont last too long. Take that however you like. I personally would much rather strike out a lot, and walk some, than to give up more hits.

Never ever walked a hitter on a 3-2 fastball? I guess I'll have to take your word for it. If you have a memory that good, where you can recall every 3-2 ball you have thrown ever, kudos to you.

Your goal is to strike everyone out-I commend that, although Steve Nebraska is the only pitcher I know of to accomplish that feat:) but by all means, shoot for the moon.

So you think walks happen but hits don't need to? If you think you are at such a level where you can strike out every hitter, how could you walk anyone? Why mess around walking hitters when you can strike all of them out? Walks, hits, strikeouts, and XBH all happen. I agree your goal should be to prevent all but the strikouts, but a player will never accomplish that. Ever. Point being: hits happen.

You refer to pitch counts and the traditional pitching motion. Thats fine, but name me one MLB organization that will leave a pitcher out if they are walking everyone and getting lit up, even if they won't hurt themselves by throwing more pitches. Even if they are getting people out, no MLB teams let pitchers work deep into games. I don't like pitch counts, as I sure you don't, but you can't work around it in pro ball.

I read the link and did some quick research. Consider this.

Pitcher A: Over 5000 career innings 2795 walks and 5714 K's

Pitcher B: Almost 5000 innings 969 walks and 3273 K's

Which pitcher do you think had more wins? Lower ERA? More Cy Young's?

Oh, and who gave up more hits? :)

As for Maddux, he threw 42 complete games while with the Cubs. For a man who advocates scientific evidence, saying that he came out "with a tweaked hammy" is hearsay.

Can you hold runners when still pitching from a windup or do they run wild on you?

As a defensive player, playing behind pitchers who try to strike everyone out is terrible. Ask any player. If a pitcher throws strikes and works fast, balls will be put in play, but if you keep your defense in the game, they will have a rythym and feel that will make them perform better behind you. If they try to strike everyone out, there will be a lot of balls and standing around. The defense becomes flat and bored. I know this because I have seen it.

[fastbal95]

Bee,

Dont have to remember every 3-2 pitch because I dont throw fastballs in that count. To easy for the hitter.

I agree. Steve Nebraska was a stud! He could hit too!

I dont think walk need to happen. I happen to not like walks. But what Im saying is they arent as bad as hits. I just said walks happen, hit dont have to to show you I could say that, just the opposite of what you said.

I never said that an organization would leave a pitcher in if he was getting lit up. You didnt mention that in the post I was referring to. With that being said, I dont think an organization will yank a guy either if he happens to walk three batters in a row. A pitcher should get at least five batters to prove if he's ready to pitch. I think I could work around pitch counts in pro ball if I prove that I can throw, say 200 pitches one day, then come back and through again the next. What do you think? Not necessarily in a game though.

So what did you think about the link? Im curious? And I'll leave it for you to tell me about both those pitchers.

As for the Maddoz story, it wasnt meant to be anything scientific. Remember though, he did pitch for the Cubs at two seperate times in his career. And when I said "tweaked hammy", that wasnt exactly what it was everytime. That was just an example of things he would say. It wasnt meant to be taken as "scientific", more subjective than objective.

Yes we can hold runners on. Righties have it the easiest. As a lefty, I found it more difficult to hold runners on first, but second base was far easier than using the traditional motion. With anything in baseball though, it takes practice. With practice, anyone using this motion can hold runners on far better than the traditional motion.

"As a defensive player, playing behind pitchers who try to strike everyone out is terrible. Ask any player. If a pitcher throws strikes and works fast, balls will be put in play, but if you keep your defense in the game, they will have a rythym and feel that will make them perform better behind you. If they try to strike everyone out, there will be a lot of balls and standing around. The defense becomes flat and bored. I know this because I have seen it."

If a pitcher works fast and throws strikes, why will or why does the ball have to be put in play. I work fast, and I get better and better at throwing strikes everyday. So why couldnt I still strike everybody out? I agree with you about a pitcher who throws ball after ball after ball, bad for the defense. They like to be involved. You have seen it, I have too, but with traditional pitchers. My experience this summer was not that of yours. My teamates loved when I pitched because they got to see me embarass hitters and throw pitches that they didnt think could be thrown. They had a blast. And they made sure to tell me about it all the time. They also said they were glad that they didnt have to face me, lol! I really do think you need to see what we can do in person before you can truly appreciate what we do. I hope that day comes real soon. I greatly look forward to it.

[beemax]

Bee,

Dont have to remember every 3-2 pitch because I dont throw fastballs in that count. To easy for the hitter.

I dont think an organization will yank a guy either if he happens to walk three batters in a row. A pitcher should get at least five batters to prove if he's ready to pitch. I think I could work around pitch counts in pro ball if I prove that I can throw, say 200 pitches one day, then come back and through again the next. What do you think? Not necessarily in a game though.

So what did you think about the link? Im curious? And I'll leave it for you to tell me about both those pitchers.

If a pitcher works fast and throws strikes, why will or why does the ball have to be put in play. I work fast, and I get better and better at throwing strikes everyday. So why couldnt I still strike everybody out? I agree with you about a pitcher who throws ball after ball after ball, bad for the defense. They like to be involved. You have seen it, I have too, but with traditional pitchers. My experience this summer was not that of yours. My teamates loved when I pitched because they got to see me embarass hitters and throw pitches that they didnt think could be thrown. They had a blast. And they made sure to tell me about it all the time. They also said they were glad that they didnt have to face me, lol! I really do think you need to see what we can do in person before you can truly appreciate what we do. I hope that day comes real soon. I greatly look forward to it.

Just a few questions:

Please tell me which pitcher YOU think had the lowest ERA, More hits, More XBH per 9 innings, less walks, and more Cy Young's-pitcher A or B? I want to see who you think meets all that criteria. Its a 50% chance of being right.

You do know that in pro ball they chart every pitch you throw right? So if you throw nothing but breaking balls 3-2, don't you think that would give the hitter a better idea of what you were to throw in that count?

The link was interesting. A very well researched study, but ultimately I still hold my beliefs.

Why couldn't you strike everybody out? How many pitchers have done that in the history of baseball? 27 up and 27 down, all strikeouts? It has never happened before.

If you were embarassing hitters so bad and you're teammates didn't want to face you, why aren't you with a professional team at the moment?

[fastbal95]

Bee,

If you read the study Dr. Marshall did, then you would know that the biggest indication of success, or low ERA, is number of hits, especially XBH, given up per 9 innings. You asked me earlier who had the least amount of hits? It is impossible to make an educated guess with the info you gave. I could flip a coin as to who had the lowest amount of hits and the guess would be just as good. So I'm not sure what you are getting at. Pitcher B had lower walks, but the only reason I know that is because you told me. Pitcher A is obviously Nolan Ryan just from what you have told me. What exactly are you trying to say by bringing this up by the way? No one with the info you told me can do anything more than just guess as to the questions you want answered, so I dont see what your point is.

As for 3-2 counts. Yes I know they chart pitches. I throw three types of pitches though, not just two. So I could throw a breaking ball or reverse breaking ball. I throw two reverse breaking balls, sinker and screwball, and two breaking balls, curve and slider. So in reality that is 4 pitches and not just a fastball. I should have said earlier though that I didnt throw fastballs in that count. If a hitter did actually foul off say a screwball and then fouled off a curveball, I prolly would come back with either a torque or maxline torque fastball. My typo, sorry.

You said you still hold your beliefs. What were they again? Does that mean that you dont believe that hits are worse than walks, and that least amount of hits, especially XBH, given up is the best indicator for success (lowest ERA) even though it is proven using a mathematical formula???

So are you trying to say that because no one has yet to strikeout 27 players in a row that it is impossible to be done? If you are, thats like saying scapular loading is safe because all ML pitchers do it. Really a bad reason. Just because something hasnt been done before, doesnt mean it cant be done at all. Just means no one has yet to do it. Last time I checked, I dont think there was a rule against striking out every single player in order, so it seems that it im actually physically possible. That no one has yet to do it in the history of baseball makes it improbable and unlikely, not impossible.

"If you were embarassing hitters so bad and you're teammates didn't want to face you, why aren't you with a professional team at the moment?"

This question will not easily be answered with typing. If you want to know, send me a pm with your real name and number and I'll call ya and tell ya, just too much too type.

[Chris O'Leary]

And we are likewise cautious of those who are cautious. Animal skepticism, if you will.

As I told Kharma, you guys need to understand that caution is normal.

It's not a threat.

[Chris O'Leary]

Chris, is Coach45's (or whatever his moniker is) son still working with the Doc? He mailed me a couple of film clips that were pretty amazing. And the young man was a well-built stud, so you had a fair chance to see what a real specimen could do. I know Coach's plan was to keep his son away from college competition for a year or so to see where the work in Zephyr Hills would get him. Nice family -- I'd love to see him break out.

I don't know for sure.

[Chris O'Leary]

I believe that Dr. Marshall has found a way to pitch while preventing injury. I just don't think he has found a way to pitch in the Major Leagues while preventing injury. The positions that the majority of MLB pitchers get themselves into while throwing risks injury, and IMO that is because in order to pitch with location, movement, and deception (the three rules of pitching my father taught me) you have to do so.

I will echo this.

I have looked at clips of Sparks with my scouting hat on. His curveball is excellent. Great, vertical break. However, his fastball (which is a pitcher's core pitch) is weak. It doesn't come in very hard and comes in on a rail. He also has a GIGANTIC head jerk, which is scary.

What I'm looking for are fastballs with 12+ inches of tail (due to pronation). That means fastballs like these.

Nolan Ryan

http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Pitching/Videos/Video_Pitching_NolanRyan_1980_CF_TailingFB_001.gif

Justin Verlander

http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Pitching/Videos/Video_Pitching_JustinVerlander_CF_TailingFB_001.gi f

I have yet to see a quality fastball like this from a Marshall pitcher, which is one reason why I'm still skeptical.

P.S. The yellow dot is where it looks like the ball is going to end up and the green dot is where the ball actually ends up.

[Chris O'Leary]

Very true. I think it will eventually. Doc thinks the curve is going to open the door. Brent Strom, who now is a roving pitching coordinator for the Cardinals, told Doc in Houston a couple weeks ago that what Doc is doing is the way to go and that he wants to start teaching the pendulem swing, straightline drive, and pronated curve to all the card pitchers. We shallsee what comes of that.

I think the widespread adoption of a pronated slider and cutter would have a bigger impact from the standpoint of injury prevention (although the pronation curves I have seen have been very nice).

[cosmo34]

As a hitter I would have zero fear of going into the box against one of them because they throw high 3/4 and stride in a straight line at you. There is no deception to the delivery.

My thinking exactly. That's the first thing I thought when I watched that video. The more I watch it, the more I hope there are more pitchers that throw like that. It would make my job so much easier.

[fastbal95]

Chris,

Both of those videos show great maxline fastballs. Like I said, come to Zephyrhills, hell, I'll pick you up at the airport and you can stay with us here, we have room for ya. Then once you see it in person, which you havent, decide. I will say again for everyone out there. The video doesnt do what we do justice. Seeing is believing. We welcome all visitors.

Cosmo,

Like I told to Bee. Come and see it for yourself. I would love to throw against you. Then how about you decide? Sound fair?

[beemax]

Bee,

If you read the study Dr. Marshall did, then you would know that the biggest indication of success, or low ERA, is number of hits, especially XBH, given up per 9 innings. You asked me earlier who had the least amount of hits? It is impossible to make an educated guess with the info you gave. I could flip a coin as to who had the lowest amount of hits and the guess would be just as good. So I'm not sure what you are getting at. Pitcher B had lower walks, but the only reason I know that is because you told me. Pitcher A is obviously Nolan Ryan just from what you have told me. What exactly are you trying to say by bringing this up by the way? No one with the info you told me can do anything more than just guess as to the questions you want answered, so I dont see what your point is.

As for 3-2 counts. Yes I know they chart pitches. I throw three types of pitches though, not just two. So I could throw a breaking ball or reverse breaking ball. I throw two reverse breaking balls, sinker and screwball, and two breaking balls, curve and slider. So in reality that is 4 pitches and not just a fastball. I should have said earlier though that I didnt throw fastballs in that count. If a hitter did actually foul off say a screwball and then fouled off a curveball, I prolly would come back with either a torque or maxline torque fastball. My typo, sorry.

You said you still hold your beliefs. What were they again? Does that mean that you dont believe that hits are worse than walks, and that least amount of hits, especially XBH, given up is the best indicator for success (lowest ERA) even though it is proven using a mathematical formula???

So are you trying to say that because no one has yet to strikeout 27 players in a row that it is impossible to be done? If you are, thats like saying scapular loading is safe because all ML pitchers do it. Really a bad reason. Just because something hasnt been done before, doesnt mean it cant be done at all. Just means no one has yet to do it. Last time I checked, I dont think there was a rule against striking out every single player in order, so it seems that it im actually physically possible. That no one has yet to do it in the history of baseball makes it improbable and unlikely, not impossible.

"If you were embarassing hitters so bad and you're teammates didn't want to face you, why aren't you with a professional team at the moment?"

This question will not easily be answered with typing. If you want to know, send me a pm with your real name and number and I'll call ya and tell ya, just too much too type.

Like I said, I read the study. The biggest indication of success to MM and YOU, is hits per nine innings. To me, it is wins (that's the point of playing a game, to win, right?). I picked player A (Nolan Ryan), because he has the most strikeouts all time, but also the most walks. I picked player B, who is Greg Maddux, because he is a fellow 300 game winner and future HOF. They are comparable because they are both HOF'ers, but in my view Maddux is leaps and bounds better than Ryan.

You advocate walks over hits, if you have to pick from the two. I think the other way around as a product of pitching to contact (such as the double play scenario we talked about before). Maddux is the greatest pitcher of his generation, IMO. I don't think many would say the same about Ryan, the reason being his career record is 324-292. Maddux's career record to date is 347-214.

Maddux has fewer walks than Ryan, 969 to 2795, more hits, 4522 to 3923, lower ERA, 3.11 to 3.19, and fewer strikeouts to 3273 to 5714.

So Maddux has 1826 fewer walks, 599 more hits, 2441 fewer strikeouts, 23 more wins (and counting) while having 78 fewer losses.

This is to illustrate my point of pitching to contact. The greatest strikeout (and walk) pitcher of all time barely had a record over .500. His greatness was in his longevity and stuff, not being a consistent winner.

Maddux is arguably the greatest pitcher of the last 30 years. He has a winning percentage of over .600 while pitching to contact a whole lot more than Ryan.

I don't believe that hits or walks are good. I do believe in pitching to contact. Some hits may come as a result, but I will take that without walks.

So you still are on the "I can strike out all 27 hitters" train. Good luck with that. Bad reason or not, good luck. And don't put words in my mouth by saying that it is like saying scap loading is safe. I didn't say that.

What proof do you or any of MM's other students have of your motion working at any level above a collegiate summer league?

[Chris O'Leary]

Both of those videos show great maxline fastballs. Like I said, come to Zephyrhills, hell, I'll pick you up at the airport and you can stay with us here, we have room for ya. Then once you see it in person, which you havent, decide. I will say again for everyone out there. The video doesnt do what we do justice. Seeing is believing. We welcome all visitors.

I will try to get down there...

I do all of my evaluations off of video, usually from worse angles than the Marshall clips, so I know how to judge what I'm seeing.

Also, I find that it's BETTER to do evaluations off of video rather than live because then you can step through clips frame by frame.

[fastbal95]

I thought the other guy might be Maddox. Remember that wins and are not in control of the pitcher. He cant win without run support. And he cant win if he team blows the lead for him. I think that ERA is a better indication of success because of the just mentioned reason. I guess we will just disagree again. I will though agree with you that Maddox is one of the greatest pitchers ever. He is smart, and knows how to pitch. Ryan was a genetic freak, I think we all would love to have his genetics. Are we going to include the Rocket in this conversation, or does his steroid scandal nullify him? lol. 354 wins, 184 losses, 4916 innings, 4185 hits, 4672 K's, and 1580 walks.

Thanks for the luck, Im def gonna need it in trying to strike out every player in a game, so far my best is 17, but that was throwing traditionally, so we wont count it, lol.

"I don't believe that hits or walks are good."

Good, neither do I. But we disagree on which one is worse I guess.

I never said that you think scap loading is bad, or good. What I was doing is comparing reaons, examples. I hope this clarifies this.

"What proof do you or any of MM's other students have of your motion working at any level above a collegiate summer league?"

Well I could mention Jeff Sparks, but the second I do, many people will jump on me for that, for various reasons. lol. Fact still remains that Doc trained him and he made it to the bigs. Other than that, and recently, you might just have to wait till this summer.

[fastbal95]

Well Chris I hope you do make it down here. And you are welcome to bring your video camera so you can take film of us throwing, if you like.

[beemax]

How long has Doc been teaching these mechanics?

[fastbal95]

It depends on what you mean by these mechanics? For the past forty years he has been researching this. It all started in 1967 when hi figured out that pronation would save the elbow and back of the shoulder. It has now developed into what we now do. He has been teaching exactly what we do now though, for the past few years, id say. Earlier he tried to "hide" his motion or appease the traditionalists, but he says he got sick of that so he's not hiding it anymore. While there were no injurious flaws, there were still some mechanical flaws so he decided to fix those. I hope this helps.

[beemax]

So did Jeff Sparks use these mechanics in the big leagues? By that I mean is what we see in his video the same as he was throwing in the show?

[fastbal95]

If its the video on Yahoo, then no, not exactly. If you want to see video of Jeff throwing in the big leagues, go to drmikemarshall.com, click on free video, then scroll down and click on james jeffery sparks.

[beemax]

So which video would Doc use now, the one of him in the big leagues or the one of him on yahoo. Which does he feel is better, because they are not the same.

[fastbal95]

Right, they arent exactly the same. The mechanics Doc teaches now are the ones Jeff uses in the yahoo video. Do not think that Jeff is a perfect example of what Doc teaches us, he is not. No one has yet to perfect Doc's mechanics; too much muscle memory from the traditional motion. We all have our issues that we deal with down here, but we are getting closer and closer everyday.

[beemax]

Closer and closer to what exactly? I talk about Jeff because he is the only one of you on Doc's website that I can find that has pitched competitively in the past three years, aside from you, and I know that this is your first year. Jeff's last year pitching competitively was 2005, where he walked 18 in 14 innings while striking out 13 and having an 8.36ERA-in independent ball.

Again I use him as an example because he is all I have to look at. So what are you guys getting "closer" to?

[fastbal95]

Closer to Doc's theoretical "perfect" motion.

I gotta get some sleep. Got an early flight back to Chicago in the morning for Christmas.

I hope we can continue this soon!

[beemax]

Same here...gotta get some sleep although it still is before midnight here...

[TG Coach]

Unfortunately, there will always be at least a few people who wouldn’t believe ...

A definition of stupid is doing the same thing repeatedly and expecting a different result. That's right, I don't believe in Marshall. He's been at this project for forty years without results. Show me some results. A 7.07 ERA in an obscure D3 with an 8-20 season record is not results. Any better than average high school pitcher could have accomplished that. Jeff Sparks bouncing around Indy ball is not results. Marshall and his KoolAid drinkers talk about success throwing pitches, but it never seems to be in competition.

[cosmo34]

Cosmo,

Like I told to Bee. Come and see it for yourself. I would love to throw against you. Then how about you decide? Sound fair?

Time and place baby.

[scorekeeper]

What I'm looking for are fastballs with 12+ inches of tail (due to pronation). That means fastballs like these.

Chris, maybe I’m getting my numbers slightly wrong, but I could swear that someone has come up with the number 1,800 RPM for a top ML quality pitcher throwing a curveball, and even then that would only produce a maximum of 17.5 “ “break”.

I find it very hard to understand how a FB which isn’t thrown purposely trying to get high revs, and is thrown roughly 10-15MPH faster than a curve, can get 12” of horizontal break.

[Chris O'Leary]

Chris, maybe I’m getting my numbers slightly wrong, but I could swear that someone has come up with the number 1,800 RPM for a top ML quality pitcher throwing a curveball, and even then that would only produce a maximum of 17.5 “ “break”.

I find it very hard to understand how a FB which isn’t thrown purposely trying to get high revs, and is thrown roughly 10-15MPH faster than a curve, can get 12” of horizontal break.

I don't know (or care) what these studies say. While some studies are good, some aren't.

All I care about is the break I see in these clips...

http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Pitching/Videos/Video_Pitching_NolanRyan_1980_CF_TailingFB_001.gif

http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Pitching/Videos/Video_Pitching_JustinVerlander_CF_TailingFB_001.gi f

...that I have seen in guys like Jake Peavy and that I have seen in scouting videos.

Look at the hard right turn that Nolan Ryan's ball takes in frame 51.

The yellow dot is the projected end spot based on the trajectory the first few frames after the release. The green dot is where the ball actually ended up.

You can judge the amount of the horizontal break using the width of home plate (17") as your measuring stick.

[scorekeeper]

I just remember seeing physics and math used to prove how much a baseball could possible “break”, and was asking a question.

I know you love to look at and study vids, but does what you see on a vid actually represent what’s happening? IOW, does all that break you see come from the ball actually moving that far, or is it possible that some comes because of the camera angle. Now me, I’d be trying to use something like questtec that’s computing break rather than a camera more than 300’ away.

If you could draw a line, based on the ball’s release vector and where it would go with no horizontal movement, then compare it to where it actually ended up, that would make much more sense to me. putting dots up there doesn’t mean much to me because I don’t know if that camera is exactly in line and looking parallel to the ball trajectory.

I wish I could explain it better, but I can’t. All I know is, when I see clips that MLB uses to grade umpires, or watch ball flight during a game, and they show the entire flight of the ball, I’ve never seen any FB break horizontally more than maybe 6-7”, and those that broke a lot were almost always from low angled guys.

Do you have access to any of the disks used to grad umps?

[XV84]

I just remember seeing physics and math used to prove how much a baseball could possible “break”, and was asking a question.

I know you love to look at and study vids, but does what you see on a vid actually represent what’s happening? IOW, does all that break you see come from the ball actually moving that far, or is it possible that some comes because of the camera angle. Now me, I’d be trying to use something like questtec that’s computing break rather than a camera more than 300’ away.


MLB has a system called PitchF/X installed in every ballpark that computes pitch speed and break amount. I tend to trust a computer calculating all this for me rather my own naked eye and a centerfield camera. There are a number of baseball statisticians using the free database of pitches to analyze pitchers.

If you go to MLB.com and go to any boxscore from 2007, there will be a link titled "Gameday". It will launch an applet that gives pitch-by-pitch replay of all the action.

Here is a screenshot of what I am talking about:

http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa173/xvue84/jobavsCLE.jpg

[scorekeeper]

MLB has a system called PitchF/X installed in every ballpark that computes pitch speed and break amount. I tend to trust a computer calculating all this for me rather my own naked eye and a centerfield camera. There are a number of baseball statisticians using the free database of pitches to analyze pitchers.

Thanx! I knew they were using something newer than QuesTec, but I couldn’t remember the name.

Well, I know I wasn’t using it the best possible way, but I did check out a few batters in the last WS game. The most I saw any pitch “BREAK” was just over 6”, and most pitches at 90+ were 3-4.

I’ve figured out how to go to gameday, but when I tried to get up a Pads game that Peavy threw, I couldn’t get the track of the ball. If you could, go to the opening day game for the Pads against the Giants. Peavy pitched, but see if you can get the ball track.

Like you, I don’t trust my own eyes either! But that PitchF/X is a piece of work.

[XV84]

Thanx! I knew they were using something newer than QuesTec, but I couldn’t remember the name.

Well, I know I wasn’t using it the best possible way, but I did check out a few batters in the last WS game. The most I saw any pitch “BREAK” was just over 6”, and most pitches at 90+ were 3-4.

I’ve figured out how to go to gameday, but when I tried to get up a Pads game that Peavy threw, I couldn’t get the track of the ball. If you could, go to the opening day game for the Pads against the Giants. Peavy pitched, but see if you can get the ball track.

Like you, I don’t trust my own eyes either! But that PitchF/X is a piece of work.

The system wasn't installed in all 30 parks on opening day, but MLB's plan was to get it installed in every park by end of 2007, which they did. AT&T Park was one of the ones that it wasn't installed in yet. I don't know the date for each park when the system was installed. There's no documentation anywhere on the internet that states this info. I just randomly select a game to view and hope that the data is there.

The "break" value that you see is a calculated from the break angle, horizontal break, and vertical break.

I usually like to confirm pitches I see on video with the PitchF/X data. Sometimes I see what I think is a curve or a slider and looking at the pitchF/X info will confirm which one it is. There are people that still think Francisco Rodriguez throws a slider. PitchF/X, along with video and still photos, prove otherwise.

[Postblank]

I usually like to confirm pitches I see on video with the PitchF/X data. Sometimes I see what I think is a curve or a slider and looking at the pitchF/X info will confirm which one it is. There are people that still think Francisco Rodriguez throws a slider. PitchF/X, along with video and still photos, prove otherwise.

Kind of like Papelbon's slider that's just a slower fastball?

[scorekeeper]

I usually like to confirm pitches I see on video with the PitchF/X data. Sometimes I see what I think is a curve or a slider and looking at the pitchF/X info will confirm which one it is. There are people that still think Francisco Rodriguez throws a slider. PitchF/X, along with video and still photos, prove otherwise.

I sure wish I had a dollar for ever “discussion” I’ve been in over the years where people insist how accurate charting pitches is. And what’s even worse is those who insist how much help it is for kiddyball games, let alone HS and up.

I don’t know why it is that so many people can’t seem to understand that there is absolutely no place in a baseball stadium where pitches can be charted with much more than maybe a 60% accuracy. Of course that’s better than not charting at all, but still, until the technology like your talking about becomes commonplace, unless the person charting know the sign, they won’t be able to accurately call the pitch type. And other than the most general terms, they sure won’t be able to chart locations very accurately.

I think part of the reason for that is, pitches vary so much from P to P!

[beemax]

I sure wish I had a dollar for ever “discussion” I’ve been in over the years where people insist how accurate charting pitches is. And what’s even worse is those who insist how much help it is for kiddyball games, let alone HS and up.

I don’t know why it is that so many people can’t seem to understand that there is absolutely no place in a baseball stadium where pitches can be charted with much more than maybe a 60% accuracy. Of course that’s better than not charting at all, but still, until the technology like your talking about becomes commonplace, unless the person charting know the sign, they won’t be able to accurately call the pitch type. And other than the most general terms, they sure won’t be able to chart locations very accurately.

I think part of the reason for that is, pitches vary so much from P to P!

I've been around baseball for a long time, and I am currently playing pro ball. I've done a ton of charting and so have my teammates. The notion of there being no place in a baseball stadium where you chart with more than 60% accuracy is way way off, IMO. If you know baseball it doesn't matter whether you are watching a game on tv, behind the plate or in the dugout.

It may be your opinion that charting is not very accurate and therefore needless, but I know for a fact that it helps.

I agree with you somewhat that charting wwon't help in levels lower than HS. HS and above, I believe that it can be a great help to those that pay attention to it.

Most HS and college coaches call the game for the pitcher nowadays. By charting, you can pick up patterns in what pitches they will throw in certain counts, situations, etc. I know because I have experience in HS, college, and pro ball and I have seen it work for myself and my teammates. As a hitter I am able to gain more info going into my at bat by knowing what a pitcher is likely to throw in certain situations.

I know that I can chart pitches (and when you mean pitches, what type of pitch they threw and if it was a ball or a strike) with great accuracy, be it from the dugout, behind home plate, or on tv. To me it is not all that difficult.

I have the experience to prove charting helpful. What do you base your opinon of it not being helpful, even at the MLB level, on?

[Go Cardinals]

I've been around baseball for a long time, and I am currently playing pro ball.

Check pm beemax....

[Jake Patterson]

I've been around baseball for a long time, and I am currently playing pro ball. I've done a ton of charting and so have my teammates. The notion of there being no place in a baseball stadium where you chart with more than 60% accuracy is way way off, IMO. If you know baseball it doesn't matter whether you are watching a game on tv, behind the plate or in the dugout.

It may be your opinion that charting is not very accurate and therefore needless, but I know for a fact that it helps.

I agree with you somewhat that charting wwon't help in levels lower than HS. HS and above, I believe that it can be a great help to those that pay attention to it.

Most HS and college coaches call the game for the pitcher nowadays. By charting, you can pick up patterns in what pitches they will throw in certain counts, situations, etc. I know because I have experience in HS, college, and pro ball and I have seen it work for myself and my teammates. As a hitter I am able to gain more info going into my at bat by knowing what a pitcher is likely to throw in certain situations.

I know that I can chart pitches (and when you mean pitches, what type of pitch they threw and if it was a ball or a strike) with great accuracy, be it from the dugout, behind home plate, or on tv. To me it is not all that difficult.

I have the experience to prove charting helpful. What do you base your opinon of it not being helpful, even at the MLB level, on?
Bee, respectfully disagree.

During my work career color-matching was always an issue. Anything you see with color - plastics, wire and cable, clothing etc. has some part of the manufacturing process where color matching is a concern. Before the early 1980's(?) most companies employed professional color matchers. These were people whose color discrimination was tested and shown to be good. They were trained on how to match color. It wasn't until the early 1980's when spectrophotometers were mainsteamed that the measurement of color wasn't truly realized as a science. The spectrophotometer measures the reflectance of a beam of light being shot at a sample. It then gives a numerical measurement on a three dimemnsional scale. the accuracy is incredable.

Tracking pitches is a form of measurement. If you have humans involved making decisions and measuring the results the information will be inaccurate.

I think Score's point is until there is a reliable, universal system the information is at best relative.

[fastbal95]

Cosmo,

Do you live near or in Fl? Beemax and I are going to try and meet up during spring training time. He will be in Viera. If you want to come then you are more than welcome to. Or if you want to visit Zephyrhills we would love to have you. I'll even pick you up at the airport if ya want. All are welcome to come and visit.

[scorekeeper]

I've been around baseball for a long time, and I am currently playing pro ball. I've done a ton of charting and so have my teammates. The notion of there being no place in a baseball stadium where you chart with more than 60% accuracy is way way off, IMO. If you know baseball it doesn't matter whether you are watching a game on tv, behind the plate or in the dugout.

Well beemax, I guess we’ll just have disagree on that one. Just keep in mind that when I say 60%, I’m saying the pitch location, within 6-8” on a ball in the strike zone, and the pitch type are gotten right on every single pitch.

I may be your opinion that charting is not very accurate and therefore needless, but I know for a fact that it helps.

If you check back, I never said NEEDLESS. I think its extremely helpful, and the more accurate, the more helpful it is.

I agree with you somewhat that charting wwon't help in levels lower than HS. HS and above, I believe that it can be a great help to those that pay attention to it.

One reason I don’t think its very helpful in HS, and even in most college settings is batters seldom see pitchers more than several times during a career, or more than a few times during a season. Another is, pitchers don’t very often have the skills to execute repeatedly like they do in the pro levels. There are others, but I think you get the idea.

Most HS and college coaches call the game for the pitcher nowadays. By charting, you can pick up patterns in what pitches they will throw in certain counts, situations, etc. I know because I have experience in HS, college, and pro ball and I have seen it work for myself and my teammates. As a hitter I am able to gain more info going into my at bat by knowing what a pitcher is likely to throw in certain situations.

Absolutely true, and a big reason I’ve never liked coaches calling pitches. No matter what they try to do, they fall into a pattern that seldom takes into account the different capabilities of the P. I suppose to some degree it would be helpful to hitters to have that information, but I wouldn’t say it was much more than a very slight edge. But an edge is important no matter how slight.

I know that I can chart pitches (and when you mean pitches, what type of pitch they threw and if it was a ball or a strike) with great accuracy, be it from the dugout, behind home plate, or on tv. To me it is not all that difficult.

As I said above, whether a pitch is a strike or not may not be all that difficult, but charting as most people know it means a very much more precise location than a strike. As for the pitch type. All I can say is I have a very good friend who was a ML pitching coach for 12 years with the same team, and he knew his pitchers dead on. He knew what they were capable of throwing and their command with any given pitch type in any given situation, but he’s told me that from the dugout it was very often impossible for him to tell the difference between a CU and a weak hook, a hard slider and a cutter, a CU and a soft slider, a sinker and split, among others.

So, I’m not saying you can’t do what you say, but I do know that a guy who pitched pro ball for 20 years, was a scout for 6 years and pitching coach for 12, carries a lot of weight with me.

I have the experience to prove charting helpful. What do you base your opinon of it not being helpful, even at the MLB level, on?

I don’t mean to be confrontational here beemax, but your putting words in my mouth I never uttered. I never said it wasn’t helpful. I’m trying to say that doing it by eyeball is not as accurate as people believe.

However, with technology leaping and bounding along, my guess is, charting pitches at the ML level will soon be taken out of the hands of human beings, if it hasn’t been already. And I’m fairly sure the same will happen in short order at the non-ML pro levels too.

Heck, I’m one of those kooks who’s always believed balls and strikes should be called by computer! I think that would create a huge leap forward because it would provide consistency.

[scorekeeper]

Tracking pitches is a form of measurement. If you have humans involved making decisions and measuring the results the information will be inaccurate.

I think Score's point is until there is a reliable, universal system the information is at best relative.

Dawgone you Jake! There ya go, saying in 20 words what it takes me 2,000 to say! ;)

[beemax]

Scorekeeper, you said;

"Well beemax, I guess we’ll just have disagree on that one. Just keep in mind that when I say 60%, I’m saying the pitch location, within 6-8” on a ball in the strike zone, and the pitch type are gotten right on every single pitch."

Okay, we were a bit misunderstood. By charting pitches, I meant what pitch was thrown, what the count was, and if it was a ball or strike. that's what we do in pro ball.

"One reason I don’t think its very helpful in HS, and even in most college settings is batters seldom see pitchers more than several times during a career, or more than a few times during a season. Another is, pitchers don’t very often have the skills to execute repeatedly like they do in the pro levels. There are others, but I think you get the idea."

Charting is not just for the next game you face the pitcher. It is for the next at bat in the game. I think it would be all the more important for high school and college hitters to see what the pitcher threw him in the last at bat. Keep in mind this is pitch, count, and was it a ball or strike, not how much break or movement on the pitch.

"Absolutely true, and a big reason I’ve never liked coaches calling pitches. No matter what they try to do, they fall into a pattern that seldom takes into account the different capabilities of the P. I suppose to some degree it would be helpful to hitters to have that information, but I wouldn’t say it was much more than a very slight edge. But an edge is important no matter how slight."

Any edge is a good edge.

"As I said above, whether a pitch is a strike or not may not be all that difficult, but charting as most people know it means a very much more precise location than a strike. As for the pitch type. All I can say is I have a very good friend who was a ML pitching coach for 12 years with the same team, and he knew his pitchers dead on. He knew what they were capable of throwing and their command with any given pitch type in any given situation, but he’s told me that from the dugout it was very often impossible for him to tell the difference between a CU and a weak hook, a hard slider and a cutter, a CU and a soft slider, a sinker and split, among others."

Who is the pitching coach? I would beg to differ with the majority of pitching coaches in pro ball not being able to discern what their pitchers throw from the dugout very often. I would say this because I have been around a lot of them in pro ball, and they know what their pitchers throw the vast majority of the time.

"So, I’m not saying you can’t do what you say, but I do know that a guy who pitched pro ball for 20 years, was a scout for 6 years and pitching coach for 12, carries a lot of weight with me."

I agree that he would carry a lot of weight. Who is he though?

"I don’t mean to be confrontational here beemax, but your putting words in my mouth I never uttered. I never said it wasn’t helpful. I’m trying to say that doing it by eyeball is not as accurate as people believe."

Didn't mean to come off as confrontational, so I am sorry for that. How accurate would you say people "believe" doing it by eyeball is?

"Heck, I’m one of those kooks who’s always believed balls and strikes should be called by computer! I think that would create a huge leap forward because it would provide consistency."

Consistency, sure, but not baseball, IMO. Umpires are a part of the game on the field, not computers. IMO.

All of this being said, I would like to go back to talking about the Marshall pitching motion. Anyone care to re-ignite the convo of it on here?

[beemax]

Bee, respectfully disagree.

During my work career color-matching was always an issue. Anything you see with color - plastics, wire and cable, clothing etc. has some part of the manufacturing process where color matching is a concern. Before the early 1980's(?) most companies employed professional color matchers. These were people whose color discrimination was tested and shown to be good. They were trained on how to match color. It wasn't until the early 1980's when spectrophotometers were mainsteamed that the measurement of color wasn't truly realized as a science. The spectrophotometer measures the reflectance of a beam of light being shot at a sample. It then gives a numerical measurement on a three dimemnsional scale. the accuracy is incredable.

Tracking pitches is a form of measurement. If you have humans involved making decisions and measuring the results the information will be inaccurate.

I think Score's point is until there is a reliable, universal system the information is at best relative.

While a bit over my head, I guess you are referring to charting everything a pitch has done (ie. break, velocity, location, etc.)

All I refer to when I say "charting pitches" is pitch type, the count it was thrown on, and whether it was a ball or strike.

[scorekeeper]

Okay, we were a bit misunderstood. By charting pitches, I meant what pitch was thrown, what the count was, and if it was a ball or strike. that's what we do in pro ball.

To tell the truth, I’m surprised that its that simple. What I generally see is a picture of a batter with a strike zone broken into 9 boxes. 3 hi, 3 lo, and 3 in the middle, with 3 on the left side of the plate, 3 on the right, and 3 in the middle. Then, depending on how the data is gonna be stored, the things like count and pitch type are included.

Charting is not just for the next game you face the pitcher. It is for the next at bat in the game. I think it would be all the more important for high school and college hitters to see what the pitcher threw him in the last at bat. Keep in mind this is pitch, count, and was it a ball or strike, not how much break or movement on the pitch.

In the sense you’re talking about, I completely agree. With coaches calling pitches, its very unlikely they’ll call games significantly different for P “A” as opposed to P “B”. I’m sure it happens to some degree, and for sure a coach worth spit wouldn’t have his #4 P try to blow away the top hitter on the other team just because his #1 P who topped out at 93+ could do it, but in general I think you’re correct, coaches and inexperienced C’s fall into “grooves” and those grooves can be deciphered with a little work.

The vast majority of the time? Just having some fun here, but how would you know whether they did or didn’t? ;)

Once again, you need to go back and reread what I said. I didn’t say they couldn’t tell very often. I said it was very often impossible for him to tell. Think about it. That’s a pretty big difference. His point was, unless he concentrated completely on what was going on and tried to figure out what pitch was thrown, it was really difficult to pick up what pitch was thrown.

Didn't mean to come off as confrontational, so I am sorry for that. How accurate would you say people "believe" doing it by eyeball is?

I’m afraid many people believe it to be upwards of 98%, but then again, most people don’t understand what it takes. Actually, I doubt that anyone thinks about it very much though because its now a part of baseball dogma.

Its much the same paradigm that makes players, coaches, and fans believe they can call balls and strikes from all kind of confounded places better than a trained umpire in the very best possible position.

Consistency, sure, but not baseball, IMO. Umpires are a part of the game on the field, not computers. IMO.

Well, in my mind, the only way to compare players is to do the best job of making sure they are all playing the same game as possible. In fact, I think that’s much of the problem with PED’s. the playing field isn’t the same for those that do as opposed to those that don’t.

I get a big kick out of people who like the perfection of the 90’ diamond, the 60’6” distance of the rubber, the height and slope of the mound, and the size of the batter’s boxes, but love the imperfection of umpires! I’m not suggesting getting rid of umpires at all, but rather just allowing technology to call balls and strikes on pitches not bunted at or swung at.

I don’t know right off hand, but how many pitches in a 300 pitch game are called. And of those, how many would there be a difference of a computer or a human being? My understanding is, ML umps get it right about 95% of the time or better, so all we’re really talking about is maybe 10 calls a game that would be changed, and of those, prolly only half at most come in situations where the count really made a major difference.

All of this being said, I would like to go back to talking about the Marshall pitching motion. Anyone care to re-ignite the convo of it on here?

Sorry. Didn’t mean to hijack the thread because this is the 1st time I’ve seen a thread about MM that didn’t end up with people calling each other all kinds of names.

[beemax]

"To tell the truth, I’m surprised that its that simple. What I generally see is a picture of a batter with a strike zone broken into 9 boxes. 3 hi, 3 lo, and 3 in the middle, with 3 on the left side of the plate, 3 on the right, and 3 in the middle. Then, depending on how the data is gonna be stored, the things like count and pitch type are included."

Again, you are thinking along the lines of QuesTec and anything like it. You say you generally see a picture of a batter with the zone broke into 9 boxes-where at? On tv? At the high school level? I understand the strike zone in 9 boxes and all the data that goes into it, but we don't use that when we chart from the dugout because THAT would be inaccurate. Again, pitch type, count thrown, and ball or strike. We keep it simle because it works for us.

"The vast majority of the time? Just having some fun here, but how would you know whether they did or didn’t? ;)"

Because I talk with my coaches.

"Once again, you need to go back and reread what I said. I didn’t say they couldn’t tell very often. I said it was very often impossible for him to tell. Think about it. That’s a pretty big difference. His point was, unless he concentrated completely on what was going on and tried to figure out what pitch was thrown, it was really difficult to pick up what pitch was thrown."

Isn't the pitching coach's job to completely concentrate on the pitcher? What else was he watching? I find that hard to believe.

"I’m afraid many people believe it to be upwards of 98%, but then again, most people don’t understand what it takes. Actually, I doubt that anyone thinks about it very much though because its now a part of baseball dogma."

Not completely sure about baseball dogma pertaining to charting pitches. When I talk about charting pitches, I talk about players and coaches doing it from hs on up to pro ball. They have to start somewhere to learn what it takes, right? It's not something you are born with, but rather that is learned throught trial and error. Mind you this should happen in hs, in my opinion.

Now that I have years of charting, I understand what it takes, as do my teammates and coaches. As for doubting about whether anyone thinks about it or not anymore, I know that we think about it in higher levels of baseball.

"Its much the same paradigm that makes players, coaches, and fans believe they can call balls and strikes from all kind of confounded places better than a trained umpire in the very best possible position."

It is not a matter of calling balls or strikes when charting pitch type, count, and whether the UMPIRE called it a ball or strike. IMO there is no paradigm there.

"Well, in my mind, the only way to compare players is to do the best job of making sure they are all playing the same game as possible. In fact, I think that’s much of the problem with PED’s. the playing field isn’t the same for those that do as opposed to those that don’t."

I agree.

[scorekeeper]

Again, you are thinking along the lines of QuesTec and anything like it. You say you generally see a picture of a batter with the zone broke into 9 boxes-where at? On tv? At the high school level? I understand the strike zone in 9 boxes and all the data that goes into it, but we don't use that when we chart from the dugout because THAT would be inaccurate. Again, pitch type, count thrown, and ball or strike. We keep it simle because it works for us.

Actually, I don’t see much of anything at the HS level. So far I haven’t run into a system yet that has the capacity to chart pitches and make use of it in that game, let alone saving the data and having hitters and pitchers study it. I have no doubt it happens in some systems, but so far not in one I’ve had anything to do with.

When I have seen charting at the HS level, the location of the pitch has always related to the locations pitch locations are given. Sometime the signals use a 9 location sign, and sometime only 4. Different systems use different signals.

Because I talk with my coaches.

I still have a hard time picturing a PC sitting there talking to a position player about the pitcher that’s in the game. I guess I’m thinkin’ that if a PC is gonna be talkin’ to a player, it would be in everyone’s best interests to have him talking to pitchers and/or catchers.

Isn't the pitching coach's job to completely concentrate on the pitcher? What else was he watching? I find that hard to believe.

I can only tell you what’s been passed on to me, and that’s been that PC’s don’t sit there from pitch 1 in the game concentrating on every nuance of every pitch.

Not completely sure about baseball dogma pertaining to charting pitches. When I talk about charting pitches, I talk about players and coaches doing it from hs on up to pro ball. They have to start somewhere to learn what it takes, right? It's not something you are born with, but rather that is learned throught trial and error. Mind you this should happen in hs, in my opinion.

There are a lot of things in baseball dogma that I’m sure you believed as a kid and while you were on your way up that you found out weren’t quite as true as you were led to believe. On boards like this we read about many of them every year.

FI, do you believe that if in a game, all the pitcher could do was throw 85mph FB’s right down the chute, every batter would just kill the ball and he’d never get an out? Chances are he’d get hit a lot harder than someone moving the ball around with a 95mph FB, but to belive ever batter would nail every single pitch is ludicrous. That doesn’t even happen in BP that I’ve ever seen or heard about. So, while there is a degree of truth to it, its pretty unlikely that what most people think will happen is what’s gonna happen. That’s dogma.

Yes they have to star someplace. Its just another skill like hitting, pitching or fielding and it takes a lot of practice to get it right.

Now that I have years of charting, I understand what it takes, as do my teammates and coaches. As for doubting about whether anyone thinks about it or not anymore, I know that we think about it in higher levels of baseball.

I wasn’t talking about how they though of charting. I was talking about very few people at any level consider how accurate it is.

It is not a matter of calling balls or strikes when charting pitch type, count, and whether the UMPIRE called it a ball or strike. IMO there is no paradigm there.

That’s because you don’t chart locations. If you did, you’d see it.

I know Ted Williams had his now famous chart of the hitting zones, and I remember distinctly when ManRam was in I think his 4th year with the Tribe, I saw a “9 box” chart with Red and Blue denoting where his hot and cold zones were. Someone had to chart it, and there was no QuesTec around.

And as goofy as Manny was/is, I distinctly remember him telling some interviewer who’d asked him if he thought it hurt him for other teams to have those charts. He got that big ManRam smile on his face and said no, because those charts were wrong.

Here’s a couple of curious question for you personally.

What percentage of balls you hit solidly are in your personal wheel house?

What percentage of pitches can a pitcher at your level put within 6 inches of his intended target.

I hope you know I appreciate your willingness to talk with regular old farts like me. We all have a lot to learn, and I’m findin’ out more about the game every time you respond, and I thank you. ;)

[jima]

I will echo this.

I have looked at clips of Sparks with my scouting hat on. His curveball is excellent. Great, vertical break. However, his fastball (which is a pitcher's core pitch) is weak. It doesn't come in very hard and comes in on a rail. He also has a GIGANTIC head jerk, which is scary.

What I'm looking for are fastballs with 12+ inches of tail (due to pronation). That means fastballs like these.

Nolan Ryan

http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Pitching/Videos/Video_Pitching_NolanRyan_1980_CF_TailingFB_001.gif

Justin Verlander

http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Pitching/Videos/Video_Pitching_JustinVerlander_CF_TailingFB_001.gi f

I have yet to see a quality fastball like this from a Marshall pitcher, which is one reason why I'm still skeptical.

P.S. The yellow dot is where it looks like the ball is going to end up and the green dot is where the ball actually ends up.

Chris, nice! Great clips. jima

[cosmo34]

Cosmo,

Do you live near or in Fl? Beemax and I are going to try and meet up during spring training time. He will be in Viera. If you want to come then you are more than welcome to. Or if you want to visit Zephyrhills we would love to have you. I'll even pick you up at the airport if ya want. All are welcome to come and visit.

Plane ticket from Iowa to Florida might be a little bit out of my price range.

[bstrom]

My name is Brent Strom. I currently work for the St. Louis Cardinals as a roving pitching instructor. As I don't usually read or post on pitching websites I am unaware of what is being bandied about. However a friend indicated that someone with the moniker of Fastbal95 indicated on this site (confirmed) that at a recent clinic that I stated that Dr. Marshall was right, that I would begin teaching the pendulum swing, drive lines and pronation. It appears that whoever is Fastbal95 wants to use my name and position however small and irrelevant to promote "his" belief system.

While trying to promote some of what Dr. Marshall has brought into the pitching field, particularly the value of pronation and pronation on time never did I indicate that I was changing my philosophy and adopting Dr. Marshalls program in full. The essence of my presentation was to show how some relatively healthy pitchers do utilize "connection of the arm to torso", limited counter rotation, and early pronation to remain healthy. There is no doubt that Dr. Marshalls workout program is excellent. His arm care utilizing the wrist weight, weighted ball etc. However to infere, no make that state, that I have converted to 100% of the Marshall plan is wrong.

In an attempt to find middle ground, a possible hybrid utilizing some of what Dr. Marshall believes, integrate it into the conventional delivery which in my opinion some have already done (Ryan, Maddux, Clemens, Santana) etc was the basis for my presentation. So make no mistake, while I am not a frequent visitor to any web sites the one that I do visit and has had the most influence on me has been Paul Nyman and Setpro. Without trying to reinvent the wheel, Setpro has been the best at understanding motor learning, mechanics, conditioning and items relevant to the real world of throwing and pitching.

So Fastbal95, please refrain from spinning the truth. Just the facts please.

[Jake Patterson]

My name is Brent Strom. I currently work for the St. Louis Cardinals as a roving pitching instructor. As I don't usually read or post on pitching websites I am unaware of what is being bandied about. However a friend indicated that someone with the moniker of Fastbal95 indicated on this site (confirmed) that at a recent clinic that I stated that Dr. Marshall was right, that I would begin teaching the pendulum swing, drive lines and pronation. It appears that whoever is Fastbal95 wants to use my name and position however small and irrelevant to promote "his" belief system.

While trying to promote some of what Dr. Marshall has brought into the pitching field, particularly the value of pronation and pronation on time never did I indicate that I was changing my philosophy and adopting Dr. Marshalls program in full. The essence of my presentation was to show how some relatively healthy pitchers do utilize "connection of the arm to torso", limited counter rotation, and early pronation to remain healthy. There is no doubt that Dr. Marshalls workout program is excellent. His arm care utilizing the wrist weight, weighted ball etc. However to infere, no make that state, that I have converted to 100% of the Marshall plan is wrong.

In an attempt to find middle ground, a possible hybrid utilizing some of what Dr. Marshall believes, integrate it into the conventional delivery which in my opinion some have already done (Ryan, Maddux, Clemens, Santana) etc was the basis for my presentation. So make no mistake, while I am not a frequent visitor to any web sites the one that I do visit and has had the most influence on me has been Paul Nyman and Setpro. Without trying to reinvent the wheel, Setpro has been the best at understanding motor learning, mechanics, conditioning and items relevant to the real world of throwing and pitching.

So Fastbal95, please refrain from spinning the truth. Just the facts please.


Brent,
Many thanks for your post.
Jake
101 Moderator

PS: Please check your PM's

[fastbal95]

Dear Brent Strom,

If you actually read my posts, then you would see that nowhere did I say you were ready to teach these things, DURING your presentation. I was actually not in Houston on those days. I was told this by Dr. Marshall himself. So I didnt spin anything. I was honest, this is what I was told. Again, if you actually read my posts, nowhere did I say you were going to junk the conventional delivery. What Doc has told me personally is that you believe in the pendulem swing, pronation, and straight line drive but for some reason you think reverse rotation and lifting your leg is the way to go. Is this true or am I misinformed? You do not need to bend over backwords to show me the Doc has some tremendous ideas. I see his ideas in practice everyday. Nowhere have I said that if it isnt 100% Marshall then it is worthless. I will say again though, if its not 100% then it will not be as good. If Fosberry had only used part of his "flop", do you think he would still have set records and won gold? Doubt it. I have stuck with facts. Now if Dr. Marshall was incorrect with what he said, then I apologize for using your name in a post. Tell me this though, are you saying that you are not going to try and teach the pronated curveball, straight line drive, and pendulem swing to pitchers in the Cardinal organization? Also, I was not using your name to make my point my believable, I was using it to tell a story. Your position in baseball does not make me think you know anything about pitching at all. It does not make me think you are more credible at all. I do know that you have a "zipper", so that means that whenever you played, you didnt know too much. But, people are able to learn from their mistakes. I certainly hope you have. I know that before I met Doc, I didnt know any better, and it caused me to tear my labrum. Now I know better and I will never have another pitching arm injury and I will be a better pitcher. My points are believable enough when I back them up with science. I dont know you so I cant say whether or not you actually understand anatomy, kinesiology, and physics the way I do. And by the way, you spelled Kool Aide wrong. But seriously, thank you for actually taking the time to write me though, I appreciate it. Oh, and another thing, when you are at spring training, tell Luke Gregerson I said hello. Please.

Sincerely,

Joe Williams

[beemax]

Hope your holiday went well Joe,

Care to continue our previous conversation?

[fastbal95]

Sure man, what do you want to discuss about Mike Marshall's motion? I hope your Christmas was good as well.

[beemax]

This is where we left off...I said:

Closer and closer to what exactly? I talk about Jeff because he is the only one of you on Doc's website that I can find that has pitched competitively in the past three years, aside from you, and I know that this is your first year. Jeff's last year pitching competitively was 2005, where he walked 18 in 14 innings while striking out 13 and having an 8.36ERA-in independent ball.

Again I use him as an example because he is all I have to look at. So what are you guys getting "closer" to?


And you replied, "closer to Doc's theoretical "perfect" motion."

I understand that you guys are working with that goal in mind...but does any of his students other than you have more than college summer league experience since since 2005?

[fastbal95]

To my knowledge,

One pitcher is on the club team at applachian state, in north carolina. Another pitcher is at a junior college in Ohklahoma and I think he eventually wants to transfer to Incarnate Word, which is a Div II school in Texas. When Doc coached college ball, he made John Maley his pitching coach. Maley is now the pitching coach at Incarnate Word. He has had much success throughout his coaching career. As for the rest of the guys, two guys who pitched in Col over the summer are back here training, I cant say that the rest are in school. Four of them are still in Col, and Im really not sure what they are actually doing there. I have tried to help guys get into schools, but ultimately it is up to them. While I am dissapointed that they have not come back to train or find schools, Im not shocked.

[beemax]

What was your fastball velocity when you were with the Mets and what is it now?

[fastbal95]

In my senior year before I was drafted I was 88-91. When I played pro ball it was more like 85-88. Im not sure what my velocity is right now. I can tell you with only working with Doc for 4 months last season, over the summer I was regularly mid to upper 80's. Over the summer I also had flaws which I have been working on fixing this off season. I also only had the very basic baseline strength levels. Not like now, I am so much stronger. Those flaws kept me from reaching my genetic potentials. I would say that right now I am throwing as hard as I was over the summer and I am in a training cycle, not pitching competitvely. When we "train", that is do recoil cycles, our body goes into a regression in which our body has to mobilize all of it resources to fight and overcome the stress that we are applying. Therefore we are not able to throw as hard, compared to when we are done with the training cylces and out of regression. It takes about one month to come out of the recoil cycle regression. I hope this helps.

[APPpitch]

If I were you I would watch video of you throwing 88-91 and watch what you are doing now and figure out how to get back to that old way.

If I had to guess, someone slowed down your delivery. You were probably more spry and explosive in the past.

-scott

[Postblank]

If I were you I would watch video of you throwing 88-91 and watch what you are doing now and figure out how to get back to that old way.

If I had to guess, someone slowed down your delivery. You were probably more spry and explosive in the past.

-scottHe doesn't want to throw the old way, that's what got him a velocity drop and a labral tear. I'm sure he remembers how to throw traditionally.

[beemax]

Joe how many days a year do you guys train in Florida with Doc?

[Chris O'Leary]

If I were you I would watch video of you throwing 88-91 and watch what you are doing now and figure out how to get back to that old way.

If I had to guess, someone slowed down your delivery. You were probably more spry and explosive in the past.

He was injured probably due in large part to his prior mechanics, so why would he want to return to them?

Labrum problems don't just crop up out of nowhere.

Labral problems are typically due to timing problems (e.g. habitual rushing). That means you get your arm up too late and/or your PAS elbow too high (ala Mark Prior), which increases the load on both the elbow and shoulder.

These timing problems can be related to trying to be too explosive (and screwing up your timing).

One thing that I do like about Marshall's ideas is that he wants his pitchers to get their arms up sooner, which IMO dramatically reduces the risk of Labrum problems.

[JJA]

What about Jason Schmidt? He certainly doesn't have a high PAS elbow, doesn't "rush" his delivery. And of course he tore his labrum last year with the Dodgers.

That's the problem with arm injuries. There is no conclusive data which pinpoints why they occur, which is the major reason why MLB does such a poor job in trying to prevent them. It's hard to prevent them when no one really knows with any certainty why they occur.

[Postblank]

Joe how many days a year do you guys train in Florida with Doc?The normies do 280 day programs and then go play somewhere in the summer. Three daring pioneers this year will be the first to do the whole program in 724 days.

[XV84]

What about Jason Schmidt? He certainly doesn't have a high PAS elbow, doesn't "rush" his delivery. And of course he tore his labrum last year with the Dodgers.

That's the problem with arm injuries. There is no conclusive data which pinpoints why they occur, which is the major reason why MLB does such a poor job in trying to prevent them. It's hard to prevent them when no one really knows with any certainty why they occur.

Marshall knows.

But it doesn't take anyone with Marshall's background to see what was wrong in Schmidt's mechanics. His problem was that his elbow was too low, not too high. The same problem Mark Mulder had. That combined with using the traditional pitching motion.

[fastbal95]

Brett,

Postblank is correct. We typically train for 280 straight days. It will prolly be a bit less for me this year so I can go play for the team in Con this year, as it looks so far. Whether or not you agree with how we actually throw, I am glad that you are taking the time to at least educate yourself on our mechanics.

Problems with the labrum arise due to the constant side to side rubbing of the humeral head against the labrum with the traditional motion. The constant rubbing will tear it either in the front or the back. With our motion, we take the side to side out of the equation, so the humerous never rubs up against it in that way again, therefore, no more labrum problems. I hope this helps.

[Chris O'Leary]

What about Jason Schmidt? He certainly doesn't have a high PAS elbow, doesn't "rush" his delivery. And of course he tore his labrum last year with the Dodgers.

That's the problem with arm injuries. There is no conclusive data which pinpoints why they occur, which is the major reason why MLB does such a poor job in trying to prevent them. It's hard to prevent them when no one really knows with any certainty why they occur.

As I said, Labrum problems are typically due timing problems.

If you look at...

- Clips of Jason Schmidt (http://www.pitchingclips.com/players/jason_schmidt.htm)

...you can see such a timing problem.

Notice how his PAS forearm is horizontal, rather than vertical, at the moment his shoulders start to turn. This is the same basic fault that Kerry Wood and Chris Carpenter have.

Also, at the end of the day a Biceps tendon problem is actually a shoulder problem rather than an arm problem, since the Biceps tendon connects into the shoulder complex.

[Chris O'Leary]

But it doesn't take anyone with Marshall's background to see what was wrong in Schmidt's mechanics. His problem was that his elbow was too low, not too high. The same problem Mark Mulder had. That combined with using the traditional pitching motion.

The low elbow is one of the most dangerous myths of current pitching instruction.

There is nothing wrong, and much that is good, with having the elbow low. That's why you see low elbows in both Greg Maddux and Randy Johnson.

http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Pitching/Videos/Video_Pitching_GregMaddux_3B_ArmAction_001.gif

http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Pitching/Videos/Video_Pitching_RandyJohnson_Catcher_SuperSlowMotio n_002.gif

Also, Mark Mulder's elbow dropped as a RESULT of his shoulder problems rather than being the CAUSE of his shoulder problems.

[Deemax]

As I said, Labrum problems are typically due timing problems.

If you look at...

- Clips of Jason Schmidt (http://www.pitchingclips.com/players/jason_schmidt.htm)

...you can see such a timing problem.

Notice how his PAS forearm is horizontal, rather than vertical, at the moment his shoulders start to turn. This is the same basic fault that Kerry Wood and Chris Carpenter have.

Also, at the end of the day a Biceps tendon problem is actually a shoulder problem rather than an arm problem, since the Biceps tendon connects into the shoulder complex.

Chris,
To not like his arm action is one thing, but his timing within his delivery is fine. Throwing a baseball as hard as you are capable of can be damaging. Blaming PAS being vertical/horizontal@shoulder turn and relating it to the timing problem of a Cy Young caliber pitcher makes no sense to me.

Isnt the biceps tendon also connected to the elbow?

[beemax]

Brett,

Postblank is correct. We typically train for 280 straight days. It will prolly be a bit less for me this year so I can go play for the team in Con this year, as it looks so far. Whether or not you agree with how we actually throw, I am glad that you are taking the time to at least educate yourself on our mechanics.

Problems with the labrum arise due to the constant side to side rubbing of the humeral head against the labrum with the traditional motion. The constant rubbing will tear it either in the front or the back. With our motion, we take the side to side out of the equation, so the humerous never rubs up against it in that way again, therefore, no more labrum problems. I hope this helps.

So does Doc have a program for guys that are in pro ball?

When you say Con, is the Connecticut, and if so, is that the college summer team you played for this past year?

I understand about the problems with the labrum. Is there anyone currently in the big leagues who Doc thinks has good mechanics?

[fastbal95]

Deemax,

I dont like his arm action either. And would have to disagree with you that his timing is fine. Although I will agree that throwing a baseball as hard as you can, can be damaging, that is though if you are using the wrong motion. If you watch the video, you can see that first, when he front foot lands, the ball is not at driveline height and two, when his body starts foward, his arm is still going back. Not good at all, but Im sure that we disagree on this. Yes, the biceps tendon does also attach to the radius. Tears of the biceps tendon are much rarer than tears of the proximal tendon that attachs at the shoulder.

Beemax,

The program is pretty much the same. But if a pitcher who was still playing pro ball wanted to work with Doc in the time frame of just the offseason, he would first want them to promise to return after the following season. I would say that he would want them to get a baseline strength with the wrist weights of 10lbs and 6 lbs with the iron ball. The three thing that he would want them to learn and that any pitcher needs to learn, whether or not they use a leg kick or not is:

1. Pendulem swing the arm up to driveline height with the hand on the bottom of the ball. This will eliminate all UCL injuries by getting rid of late pitching forearm turnover and reverse pitching forearm bounce.

2. Have the ball up to driveline height before the front foot lands and limit side to side movement. This will eliminate front of the shoulder problems.

3. Pronate the release of all pitches. This will eliminate loss of extension of flexion range of motion and any other elbow problems. Also will eliminate back of the shoulder (teres minor) problems. Pronating also allows you to use the triceps muscle which has the highest percentage of fast twitch muscle fibers in any of the 36 muscles involved in pitching. In order to actively pronate, or in other words, pronate before, during, and after release, you need to drive your hand straight forward, or as we say, stick your hand in the strike zone. You cannot get the best pronation possible if you pull your arm across your body. With driving your hand straight foward, instead of using the small teres minor muscle, you activate the much bigger and better vascularized latissimus dorsi and teres major muscles. Therefore, no more back of the shoulder injuries.

These are just the basic things to protect the pitching arm. There are also injuries to the pitching ankle, knee, and hip that we will not have because of our body action. I think that people are starting to agree with our arm action, but still disagree with our body action. Their are a lot of retired pitchers that need hip, knee, and ankle surgery because of the way that they pitched when they played.

When I said Con, yes I meant Connecticut. The summer team that I played for was in Chicago though, that is where I am from. The team in Con. is the Bridgeport Bluefish in the Atlantic League. Tommy John is the manager of the team and as far as I know right now, Jeff and I are supposed to be playing for him. Jeff is pretty much written is stone right now. I am not, Doc is going to speak with TJ about me, since they are friends. Doc rehabbed TJ after he had his two surgeries. It is interesting to know that the player with the best career after UCL replacement, or tommy john surgery as it is commonly known, is Tommy John himself.

If you asked Doc if anyone in the big leagues has good mechanics he would prolly just laugh. In my opinion though, I see some pitchers doing very good things, things that Doc would want them to do. Justin Verlander has a very good pendulem swing. Roger Clemens tries to pronate all of his pitches, he has also straightened out his driveline. He made this change when he moved from Boston to Toronto. Apparently Doc spoke with someone close to Roger and told them that Clemens was in for a lot of injuries if he did not change the way he applied force to the ball. I would say that Kevin Gregg of the Marlins would seem the closest to what we do out of anyone in the bigs. I do not know if he pronates but he really doesnt have any leg kick and he swings his arm up to driveline height and tries to drive in a straight line. Eric Gagne has started to drop stride. This is stepping "open" to your glove side so that you can drive the ball to side of your body and get your pitching hip as close to pointing to home plate as possible. This is something we do when we through all of our "maxline" pitches, and something that Doc did when he played. These are just a few examples, there might be more but I cant think of anything else off the top of my head. I hope all of this helps.

[beemax]

"These are just the basic things to protect the pitching arm. There are also injuries to the pitching ankle, knee, and hip that we will not have because of our body action. I think that people are starting to agree with our arm action, but still disagree with our body action. Their are a lot of retired pitchers that need hip, knee, and ankle surgery because of the way that they pitched when they played."

Who fits this description of needing hip, knee, and ankle surgery? What former pitchers come to mind?


"It is interesting to know that the player with the best career after UCL replacement, or tommy john surgery as it is commonly known, is Tommy John himself."

That is interesting to know.

Are you saying that Tommy John is not a good surgery for those who need it or simply that he had the best career after it? If you are saying it is not a good surgery, I beg to differ, but I'm not sure you are saying that.

As for players with the best career's after Tommy John, did Mariano Rivera slip your mind? He had TJ BEFORE he got to the big leagues, unlike Tommy John himself. Don't get me wrong, Tommy John is one of the prime examples of the surgery's success, but not THE prime example. John Smoltz comes to mind, but he had his surgery later in his career than John. His numbers have been pretty darn good since. How about David Wells, who had it after his 1984 minor league season? 239 wins post-TJ is pretty good. John had a little over 160 wins-post TJ.

Don't get me wrong, he is a great example, but there have been better. He was just the first.

"If you asked Doc if anyone in the big leagues has good mechanics he would prolly just laugh. In my opinion though, I see some pitchers doing very good things, things that Doc would want them to do. Justin Verlander has a very good pendulem swing. Roger Clemens tries to pronate all of his pitches, he has also straightened out his driveline. He made this change when he moved from Boston to Toronto. Apparently Doc spoke with someone close to Roger and told them that Clemens was in for a lot of injuries if he did not change the way he applied force to the ball. I would say that Kevin Gregg of the Marlins would seem the closest to what we do out of anyone in the bigs. I do not know if he pronates but he really doesnt have any leg kick and he swings his arm up to driveline height and tries to drive in a straight line. Eric Gagne has started to drop stride. This is stepping "open" to your glove side so that you can drive the ball to side of your body and get your pitching hip as close to pointing to home plate as possible. This is something we do when we through all of our "maxline" pitches, and something that Doc did when he played. These are just a few examples, there might be more but I cant think of anything else off the top of my head. I hope all of this helps."

Kevin Gregg is the closest. Again, don't get me wrong, Kevin Gregg is a solid middle reliever in the big leagues, but he's the closest to what you guys do? Did you watch Eric Gagne pitch after he was trade to the Red Sox? 6.75ERA with them. Do you think his drop stride helped him with that?

[Chris O'Leary]

"These are just the basic things to protect the pitching arm. There are also injuries to the pitching ankle, knee, and hip that we will not have because of our body action. I think that people are starting to agree with our arm action, but still disagree with our body action. Their are a lot of retired pitchers that need hip, knee, and ankle surgery because of the way that they pitched when they played."

Who fits this description of needing hip, knee, and ankle surgery? What former pitchers come to mind?

IMO this is one of Marshall's weaker claims.

I don't like how his guys tend to hyperextend their GS knees.

I would prefer that they always kept their GS knees bent somewhat.


"Kevin Gregg is the closest. Again, don't get me wrong, Kevin Gregg is a solid middle reliever in the big leagues, but he's the closest to what you guys do? Did you watch Eric Gagne pitch after he was trade to the Red Sox? 6.75ERA with them. Do you think his drop stride helped him with that?

Brian Fuentes of the Rockies is probably a better example. He gets his arm up quite early.

[Chris O'Leary]

To not like his arm action is one thing, but his timing within his delivery is fine. Throwing a baseball as hard as you are capable of can be damaging. Blaming PAS being vertical/horizontal@shoulder turn and relating it to the timing problem of a Cy Young caliber pitcher makes no sense to me.

This is also the root cause of Chris Carpenter's problem.

While they are both good, they are injury prone.

[Postblank]

IMO this is one of Marshall's weaker claims.
Watch Curt Schilling walk sometime, he does the same thing Doc does from years of traditional body action: the PAS knee pretty much buckling from being scalloped out inside the joint.

[beemax]

How long does MM think a pitcher can throw effectively in the big leagues for if he does his program and mechanics?

[Postblank]

How long does MM think a pitcher can throw effectively in the big leagues for if he does his program and mechanics?
Assuming you mean as far as a career goes, it depends on how skilled and gifted the person is. Doc felt he had 3-4 solid years left before he got blackballed, and he'll tell you he's one of the least genetically gifted people out there. If the Devil Rays weren't basically waiting for Sparks to falter, Doc thinks Jeff would still be pitching in an affliated team's system. (Look at the game log for his last season with the Devil Rays, he was doing pretty well until the last three outings. I'm totally willing to call shenanigans on Tampa Bay there.)

As a general rule, it's like pitching traditionally. If you can compensate legally for losing some MPH and just being overall older, there's no reason you can't still be out there with Moyer, Glavine, Maddux, Wells and Johnson at their age.

EDIT: I should also mention that Doc himself pitched into his 50's and would probably still be throwing if he hadn't hurt himself trying to stop a dresser from falling. He was throwing about 400 innings a year until like 52-53. Joe could back up those numbers better, I'm estimating based on only hearing about it once.

[beemax]

Assuming you mean as far as a career goes, it depends on how skilled and gifted the person is. Doc felt he had 3-4 solid years left before he got blackballed, and he'll tell you he's one of the least genetically gifted people out there. If the Devil Rays weren't basically waiting for Sparks to falter, Doc thinks Jeff would still be pitching in an affliated team's system. (Look at the game log for his last season with the Devil Rays, he was doing pretty well until the last three outings. I'm totally willing to call shenanigans on Tampa Bay there.)

At least MM thinks that pitcher's cannot pitch forever. That is kind of the impression I was getting with all the talk of never being hurt while using his motion.

Make all the excuses you want about Sparks and what the Devil Rays did, but what about his ERA with his last two teams in pro ball-independent ball at that: 6.55 and 8.36? What does that say about your point? I'm assuming that with his work from Doc, his mechanics in 2004 and 2005 were "closer" to the "theoretically perfect" delievery that fastbal95 speaks of. If he is getting "closer" why are his numbers getting increasingly worse?

[beemax]

What league was Doc pitching in when he was 52? 400 innings? please.

[fastbal95]

Beemax,

Just off the top of my head Jason Isringhausen comes to mind with his hip. Matt Herges with his hip. I believe he is the first to pitch after having a full hip replacement. After working with Tom House on "releasing the ball closer to home plate", Randy Johnson needed knee surgery. When the big three were in Oakland, Mulder and Hudson both had hip problems I believe. I think Hudson might have had some while in Atlanta also? Not exactly sure about that though. Joe Magrane, pitched for the Cardinals back in the 80's, is having ankle surgery. These are just a few that I thought of without actually doing any research or digging. And Postblank made a good example with Schilling I suppose. Doc also needs his hip and knee replaced. You should see it bend, almost buckle inward, from years of turning on it. But maybe they are just a necessary evil of pitching MLB. I dont know.

A far as UCL replacement goes, I think its a great surgery. What I do think though is that its not necesary. If everyone just pendulem swung there arm up with the hand on top of the ball, there wouldnt have to be TJ surgery anymore. Not sure that the surgerons would like that though, lol. Also, when they replace the UCL with the Palmerus Longus tendon, or if some people dont have that tendon, a certain percent of the general pop doesnt, then I believe they take a tendon from your knee?, it doesnt have the same blood flow as your own UCL. Therefore is cannot get a strong as your own UCL could have, and it cannot respond to stress as well. Eventually it will blow also. Thats why you see guys in the bigs who have had TJ twice. And im sure a lot more guys in the minors also.

I was unaware the Wells had TJ. So maybe he actually would be a better example of comeback stories of it. Who knows. I wouldnt use Rivera or Smoltz though, not to say there arent good pitchers, because they are, just wouldnt use them as examples. What I do know is that TJ had that good of a career after the surgery because Doc rehabbed him, and taught him the pendulem swing.

I threw Kevin Gregg out there because I have seen him pitch. I havent seen every MLB pitcher throw. If I did, then maybe I could give you a better example, but so far from what I have seen, he looks most like what we do. With that said, there may be guys that do certain things better, like Verlander with his pendulem swing, but overall Gregg looks the most like us I would say. Doc wouldnt even comment on it, but I would say so. Just my opinion. And as far as Gagne goes, I think he still had a pretty damn good year overall. Whoever he just signed with must seem to think so too, with the amount of money they gave him, wasnt it 10 million for one year? Anyways, pitchers are human, and they can make mistakes too. You just asked me who in MLB was doing stuff like us and I gave you his name because I have seen him start to drop stride.

Chris,

Im sorry but Fuentes is a horrible example of what we are trying to do. He is a GREAT example of what not to do, pull, pull, pull. He pulls his arm across his body so much. It is quite amazing that he can generate so much velocity with what he does. He is highly genetically gifted. I believe he could throw much harder if he applied force to the baseball differently.

[Postblank]

At least MM thinks that pitcher's cannot pitch forever. That is kind of the impression I was getting with all the talk of never being hurt while using his motion.Eventually you're going to be too old to be effective at a high level, it's just common sense.

Make all the excuses you want about Sparks and what the Devil Rays did, but what about his ERA with his last two teams in pro ball-independent ball at that: 6.55 and 8.36?Between those two teams he only pitched 25 innings. That's hardly a sufficient sample size to prove anybody's point. He did poorly, granted, but he was probably burned out. There's a reason he's been going to firefighter school. If pitching for the Bluefish doesn't yield the results he thinks he's capable of, Jeff gave me the impression he's packing it in.

What does that say about your point? I'm assuming that with his work from Doc, his mechanics in 2004 and 2005 were "closer" to the "theoretically perfect" delievery that fastbal95 speaks of. If he is getting "closer" why are his numbers getting increasingly worse?With Jeff and guys like Jeff, it's not always just a matter of the mechanics and natural ability. Jeff will be the first person to tell you he gets in his own way, that's why he's not allowed to play in Mexico anymore.

What league was Doc pitching in when he was 52? 400 innings? please.Pitching year round in men's leagues in Florida, mostly with people generously younger than he was.

[fastbal95]

Post,

I think you have done a very good job at explaining.

[Postblank]

I wouldnt use Rivera or Smoltz though, not to say there arent good pitchers, because they are, just wouldnt use them as examples.You're going to have to elaborate on that.

And as far as Gagne goes, I think he still had a pretty damn good year overall. Whoever he just signed with must seem to think so too, with the amount of money they gave him, wasnt it 10 million for one year?
He had a good year because a team gave him a lot of money? He went to Boston and started giving up 12.5 H/9. That's a pretty dangerous thing to do, especially since he looked hurt as hell.

[scorekeeper]

How is it that there are still so many people who believe ERA is the BEST measure of a pitcher?

[Postblank]

Post,

I think you have done a very good job at explaining.Just making sure I was close. I don't like estimating numbers.

[beemax]

I was unaware the Wells had TJ. So maybe he actually would be a better example of comeback stories of it. Who knows. I wouldnt use Rivera or Smoltz though, not to say there arent good pitchers, because they are, just wouldnt use them as examples. What I do know is that TJ had that good of a career after the surgery because Doc rehabbed him, and taught him the pendulem swing.

Why aren't Rivera and Smoltz good examples? Both will be Hall of Famers! I stated that Smoltz had his later in his career, but he has been extremely effective since. Rivera, as Wells, had TJ before he went to the show. Whats wrong with arguably the best closer of all time having pitched post-TJ his whole career?

[beemax]

Post,

What evidence do you have of pitchers getting better after working with MM?

[Postblank]

How is it that there are still so many people who believe ERA is the BEST measure of a pitcher?
Same way sports writers will use individual W-L to factor in Cy Young winners. Even those who use WHIP, H/9, K/9, GO/AO at the end of the day seem to feel they need a stat that says "See! People don't score when this guy pitches."

[fastbal95]

Post,

I said I wouldnt use Smoltz as an example, because he had TJ pretty late in his career. Wouldnt use Rivera because he is a reliever and doesnt pitch as much as starters. He IS arguably one of the best closers, but I wouldnt use him, thats all.

And as far as Gagne, look at his overall stuff with both teams. I was saying even with the debacle in Boston, I still think he had a pretty good year as far as good years go these days. And whoever just signed him thought he did as well because they gave him a lot of money. If they didnt think he was capable of repeating and doing even better than last year, I dont think, and I really hope, a team wouldnt throw that kind of money around.

Scorekeeper,

In your opinion, what do you think is the best measure of a pitcher?

[Postblank]

Post,

What evidence do you have of pitchers getting better after working with MM?If by "evidence" you mean "statistics" then we have nothing that will satisfy you yet. Considering Doc will take anyone that's willing to commit themselves, it's still early in the game for our motion. Doc needs more people like Joe (studs) and less people like me (regular dudes).

Doc's helped train guys like John, Seanez, Tewksbury and other guys that have played pro ball. But he doesn't like claiming them because none of them did exactly what he advised. Rudy never even attempted learning the breaking pitches, John kept throwing his supination curve ball and Tewksbury has denied Doc three times that he helped him at all (because he wants to keep his job as sports psychologist).

[Baseball gLove]

... it's still early in the game for our motion....

After 30 years, is anyone pitching in the Major Leagues?

[Chris O'Leary]

Watch Curt Schilling walk sometime, he does the same thing Doc does from years of traditional body action: the PAS knee pretty much buckling from being scalloped out inside the joint.

I don't doubt that Schilling (or Marshall) does this with their knees.

It's that I'm not convinced that Marshall's guys won't end up with the same problems due to how they appear to hyperextend their knees.

[fastbal95]

What do you mean by 30 yrs? Doc opened his curent training facility in 1999. He himself has said that only very recently, maybe since 2006, has he figured it all out. When he coached college years ago, he had plenty of pitchers go into pro ball. He has had guys go into pro ball in the last ten years also. When the guys report, the pitching coaches do either two things. 1. Make them change the way they throw by withholding innings if they dont change. 2. Release them. If my memory serves me right, I think Mr. Strom had a guy that trained with Doc once. Maybe he could enlighten us on what happened there? Postblank, do you know what Im talking about?

Doc has only recently "figured" it all out. In the past 40 yrs since he figured out that pronation protected the elbow, he has been working towards a "perfect motion". Things of this nature take time to figure out, you dont just get hit on the head and have it all put together.

To my knowledge though, 3 guys have played big league ball. Doc, and two guys named Jeff. One played for the Devil Rays, and another one played for the Dodgers.

[fastbal95]

Chris,

Im glad you have seen the light, lol! Because you think that some of us may eventually hyperextent our knees, doesnt mean that this is what Doc teaches. I have said before that unlearning everything we have previously learned is very very very hard to do. After more than 10 years of pitching the "traditional" way, I now need to have my body forget all of that and try to learn another way to throw. Its been only like a year since I began training with Doc now. Now Im far better than I was when I started out, but Im nowhere near perfect. Its not exactly simple. What Doc does want us to do is when our front foot lands, we land on our heel, like we are walking, and roll onto our toes to keep our center of mass moving in a uniform path towards home plate. Then when we get to our toes, to rotate out in front of our glove foot and push back towards second base with our leg. I think it would be beneficial if our leg was bent a little. This is what we are trying to do, its just not all or maybe even any have been able to get their yet. Why? Read what I wrote above, lol.

[Baseball gLove]

My son is currently tearing it up in showcase and high school ball averaging 1.3 doubles per game. His 1st coach was a linear batting coach. About 2.5 years ago I completely revamped my son's mechanics into a rotational style. Do you think the 1st coach should take credit for my son's current successes? Oh wait a minute, he is standing on his two feet in the box with a bat in his hands, he definitely learned that from the 1st coach. :rolleyes:

[fastbal95]

Baseball Love,

Is this supposed to acutally mean anything? What are you getting at?

[scorekeeper]

Same way sports writers will use individual W-L to factor in Cy Young winners. Even those who use WHIP, H/9, K/9, GO/AO at the end of the day seem to feel they need a stat that says "See! People don't score when this guy pitches."

SEEM TO?

So, are you saying the best measure of a P is ERA? It sounds like you’re really saying its TRA. But at any rate, go over to the Stats, Analysis & Sabermetrics forum and see what those guys think about ERA. ;)

[fastbal95]

Scorekeeper,

I take it you dont think ERA is the best measure of a pitcher. So what do you think it is? I will check out the other forum, thanks.

[Baseball gLove]

What do you mean by 30 yrs? Doc opened his curent training facility in 1999. He himself has said that only very recently, maybe since 2006, has he figured it all out. When he coached college years ago, he had plenty of pitchers go into pro ball. He has had guys go into pro ball in the last ten years also. When the guys report, the pitching coaches do either two things. 1. Make them change the way they throw by withholding innings if they dont change. 2. Release them. If my memory serves me right, I think Mr. Strom had a guy that trained with Doc once. Maybe he could enlighten us on what happened there? Postblank, do you know what Im talking about?

Doc has only recently "figured" it all out. In the past 40 yrs since he figured out that pronation protected the elbow, he has been working towards a "perfect motion". Things of this nature take time to figure out, you dont just get hit on the head and have it all put together.

To my knowledge though, 3 guys have played big league ball. Doc, and two guys named Jeff. One played for the Devil Rays, and another one played for the Dodgers.

The other "Jeff" was a worse result than Jeff Sparks.

[fastbal95]

Baseball Love,

Well hey, at least they made it to the show, thats more than what I can say for most people who play baseball. So by your rational, you arent any good if you dont star in MLB? I dont want to put words into your mouth, but thats what it sounds like you are saying to me. At least they made it there. Doesnt matter what kind of success they had or not, they were there. Were you?

[fastbal95]

scorekeeper,

Which thread should I go to in the statistics forum to read what you are talking about? Thanks

[Baseball gLove]

Baseball Love,

Is this supposed to acutally mean anything? What are you getting at?

Marshall seems to want to take credit when there is little or no credit due to him. I had a pitching coach that seemed to emphasize the radar gun. I realized that after a month that coach was a bad direction. Perhaps Rudy Saenz realized after a month that Marshall was a bad direction for him.

[fastbal95]

Baseball Love,

You can read the article on yahoo where Rudy credits Doc. He came to Doc because he wanted to know why he could throw 94 from the windup and only 88 out of the set. I hope you arent saying that Doc is only focused on radar gun readings, I dont think you are, but not 100 percent sure from what you wrote. Rudy came back to Doc after his pitching coaches taught him to supinate his slider. Why did he come back? Because he got injured and needed surgery and could not perform as well as he had before surgery. Once again he worked with Doc and was fixed. I believe that Rudy still does 10 lb wrist weights and a six lb iron ball by the way. If Doc was such as bad direction, why still do the bare minimum workout????

By the way, Doc doesnt take credit for Rudy because he is dissapointed that Rudy didnt want to train harder and become the best possible pitcher he could be. Basically Rudy did the bare minimum and didnt want to do any more than that. Rudy was happy to be a middle reliever and collect his check. Nothing wrong with that at all, but Rudy could have been so so much better. I may say Doc trained Rudy to show you something, Doc on the other hand doesnt care what you think about him. In his mind, he doesnt need to prove anything to you. I am at least trying to educate you and give you some sort of proof, because I think its what you want. You guys cant take science as the proof, you want results. Thats fine, there nothing wrong with that. I hope to give you guys some results this summer.

[scorekeeper]

I take it you dont think ERA is the best measure of a pitcher. So what do you think it is? I will check out the other forum, thanks.

No I don’t. To me there is no one metric that is the best measure of a pitcher, hitter, or a fielder. Too many things are involved.

Personally, I’m a big fan of Base per Out because it can be measured for both pitchers and hitters. But, some people like to look at WHIP+, others like to see TRA, some like opponents BA, some batters per inning, some like to look at strike percentages because strikes almost always put hitters on the defense, some like GBO/FBO, some like to look at how runners that scored reach base, others like to check the difference between throwing from the stretch, some like to see the OBP a P gives up, and Lord knows what other things are out there!

Start your own thread and ask the folks there what they think, or just look through the thread topics. Just be sure to ask the question in a way that it won’t be ignored.

[fastbal95]

Scorekeeper,

I thank you for your opinion and thanks for the advice. I will see what I can find.

[beemax]

What do you mean by 30 yrs? Doc opened his curent training facility in 1999. He himself has said that only very recently, maybe since 2006, has he figured it all out. When he coached college years ago, he had plenty of pitchers go into pro ball. He has had guys go into pro ball in the last ten years also. When the guys report, the pitching coaches do either two things. 1. Make them change the way they throw by withholding innings if they dont change. 2. Release them. If my memory serves me right, I think Mr. Strom had a guy that trained with Doc once. Maybe he could enlighten us on what happened there? Postblank, do you know what Im talking about?

Doc has only recently "figured" it all out. In the past 40 yrs since he figured out that pronation protected the elbow, he has been working towards a "perfect motion". Things of this nature take time to figure out, you dont just get hit on the head and have it all put together.

To my knowledge though, 3 guys have played big league ball. Doc, and two guys named Jeff. One played for the Devil Rays, and another one played for the Dodgers.

Doc just figured it out? Okay...

So Doc just figured it out in 2006? The three guys you speak of were in the big leagues before 2006. Before they had started working on the "perfect motion." Since Doc just "figured it out," and this motion that you guys are working on now is the right way to pitch, why take credit for anything previously? Since Doc clones all you guys to have the same motion, why does he show a video of Jeff Sparks pitching in the big leagues without this motion and rave about him? I feel like we are running in circles here.

A few more questions...

Is there any video of any of Doc's students throwing from the stretch?

Is there any video with a radar gun showing how hard they throw?

[scorekeeper]

Is there any video with a radar gun showing how hard they throw?

What difference does it make how hard they throw if they get outs? I guess I’m not understanding what people are looking for.

Is the measure of a P how hard he throws?

[XV84]

The low elbow is one of the most dangerous myths of current pitching instruction.

There is nothing wrong, and much that is good, with having the elbow low. That's why you see low elbows in both Greg Maddux and Randy Johnson.

http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Pitching/Videos/Video_Pitching_GregMaddux_3B_ArmAction_001.gif

http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Pitching/Videos/Video_Pitching_RandyJohnson_Catcher_SuperSlowMotio n_002.gif

Also, Mark Mulder's elbow dropped as a RESULT of his shoulder problems rather than being the CAUSE of his shoulder problems.

I said "too low" not just "low". I have no problems with an elbow below shoulder level. But there definitely is a problem when it's too low once the the front foot lands and/or when the shoulders start to rotate.

http://www.prosportspictures.com/images/mlb/san-francisco-giants/2005/05-jason-schmidt-action-1.jpg
http://www.thedisabledlist.com/files/images/mark-mulder-shoulder-injury.jpg

[Postblank]

SEEM TO?

So, are you saying the best measure of a P is ERA? It sounds like you’re really saying its TRA. But at any rate, go over to the Stats, Analysis & Sabermetrics forum and see what those guys think about ERA. ;)
I think ERA is less useful than more specified metrics. Way I see it, pitchers "allow"/(influence) hits, walks, HBP, SO, GO/AO. To me, teams allow runs. I'm hesistant to use adjusted statistics because I don't know exactly how they work, but from a casual glance they seem to reflect a pitcher's year better than W-L and ERA.

But, some people like to look at WHIP+, others like to see TRA,Ooh, these are new ones I'll have to check out. I'm interested in seeing how adjusting WHIPs works.

[XV84]

fastbal95,

Have you seen Jeremy Accardo pitch? This was a 94-96 MPH fastball strikeout. What are your thoughts?

http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa173/xvue84/pitching%20clips/accardo1.gif
http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa173/xvue84/pitching%20clips/accardoslow.gif

[beemax]

What difference does it make how hard they throw if they get outs? I guess I’m not understanding what people are looking for.

Is the measure of a P how hard he throws?

Not at all, but I can't find anywhere where they actually have stats on how they pitched because they aren't affiliated with anyone. They always talk about how hard they can throw and that they can throw as hard as they can every day, yet none of them will show proof in increased velo.

I promote guys like Maddux, Glavine, and Moyer on here as much as anyone on here. They know how to pitch. I'm just trying to find some proof that these guys are any good.

Again, none of them have played more than independent ball since Doc "figured it out" with the motion-as far as I know. There really is no hard facts showing that pitching like this is revolutionary. All I hear are vague claims with no hard evidence to back it up, only guys defending it because "science" proves it. The scientific evidence I want to see is in the form of guys having success in pro ball. Its tough to play pro ball when Doc has guys training for 3/4 of the year, so I'm just looking for some hard evidence of this so-called "perfect motion" being effective.

For my preference, seeing guys pitch in a backyard into a net with their shirts off is not hard evidence to me. Get these guys out playing in a real league. Any league.

[fastbal95]

Brett,

Why take credit, well Doc did actually train these guys. He does not take credit for Kubenka though because again, Jeff did not follow Docs guidelines to train. When he first made it to the big leagues, Doc told him he was not ready yet, he only had a maxline fastball and screwball. Doc told him he needed to work on the torque part of the game, I think Jeff disagreed and went and pitched in winter ball, instead of training, and then went to play again come spring.

When I say Doc just figured it out, I mean that he finally has figured out how to eliminate all injuries related to pitching, not just arm, and does not care to try and hide his motion, like he did when Sparks was in the big leagues. He has Jeff pitching for the Rays on his video, not to say do exactly what this guy does, but to show how the pitches and sequences can really work. How Jeff doing a less than perfect motion still got guys out. Remember, Jeff did strike out something like 41 hitters in 30 innings in the big leagues.

Like I told you before, we do not throw from a traditional stretch. It is actually possible for us to throw that way, but it shortens our driveline, so it isnt really an optimal position for us to be in.

No video of us throwing with a gun, sorry. Even if there was, we arent in a game situation so the adreneline isnt the same. It plays a big part in throwing hard.

I wish I could explain it better to you Brett but I guess I cant. Maybe if we are able to face each other things will make more sense. I really hope we can make that happen.

[Go Cardinals]

I wish I could explain it better to you Brett but I guess I cant. Maybe if we are able to face each other things will make more sense. I really hope we can make that happen.

Make sure you get that on tape .....:radio:happy::applaud:

[fastbal95]

XV,

I havent seen any video other than what you posted here. Remember I am not an expert, but just learning from one. What I see is that he does a some sort of a pendulem swing, which is good. Also, it looks, from this camera angle, that he does not stride too far, which I like, but he doesnt really get any seperation of his upper arm from his forearm. If he pronated he would prolly get more, which would help him, but throwing as hard as he does, he is definately very gifted genetically. This is only a fastball, so I would be interested to to how he throws his other pitches. I would say though that he has promise and definately can be very, very good.

[fastbal95]

Brett,

I can understand where you are coming from and definately identify with you here. I can only tell you though, that when I saw Doc's video and read his book, because of my backround in school, things made sense to me. I am hoping that we can meet up and I can throw to you, then you can make your judgments, and that I can also be able to have some proof for people this summer. I guess its more or less hurry up and wait.

[Postblank]

Make sure you get that on tape .....:radio:happy::applaud:
If this happens, I'll volunteer myself for camera.

[beemax]

I will eagerly await some results Joe, good or bad, and I hope I can step in the box against you.

[jofus13]

OK, I'm not claiming to know anything about this, but scanning through this post (I guess I was bored) led me to a question.

If you don't " throw from a traditional stretch", then what do you do when you have a burner on first base? Just give him 2nd on the first pitch, and probably 3rd on the next one? Or did I miss something?

[fastbal95]

jofus13,

Yep, you definately are missing something, lol. We have a "set" position. We have two different positions to throw from. The first one we use when no one is on base. The second can be used with runners on or no runners on. Our "set" position is still technically a windup. What I mean by that is our free foot is not in front of the rubber, it is behind. I have said before and I'll say again, we can pitch from a set or stretch position with our glove foot in front of the rubber, and its not that big of a deal, it just shortens our driveline a little bit, so most guys dont really use or practice it. The righty pickoff move to first is much much faster than a traditional righties move. The lefties move is a little more complicated. It just takes practice. Our move to second is faster than any other move to second. Over the summer, myself and some of the guys in Colorado, picked off numerous runners at second base. Holding runners at second is by far the easiest. I will say that holding on first though takes time to get used to it, and requires practice to get good at it, like anything else. It is too complicated to explain on here by typing it all out, but I think that on Doc's website, on his video, he has examples of what our pickoff moves are.

[scorekeeper]

Not at all, but I can't find anywhere where they actually have stats on how they pitched because they aren't affiliated with anyone. They always talk about how hard they can throw and that they can throw as hard as they can every day, yet none of them will show proof in increased velo.

That’s reasonable. But where does any pitcher get “proof” of how his velo had increased?

I promote guys like Maddux, Glavine, and Moyer on here as much as anyone on here. They know how to pitch. I'm just trying to find some proof that these guys are any good.

I know you’ve given unflagging support to P’s like that and extolled the virtue of control and movement. I find that extremely refreshing. In fact, I’ve quoted the following to several people since you wrote it and told them it comes from a pro player, but in almost every case that person said you were nuts. That’s what baseball dogma does. It causes people to not think with their head.

Pitching is not just mechanics or throwing as hard as you can. Maddux, Glavine, and Moyer all locate and move the ball as a means of decieving the hitter.

Hitters hate facing these guys because they know they won't get blown away yet they rarely do much off of them.

As a hitter I love facing pitchers that throw hard and have no deception. From what I can see in the videos, Dr. Marshall's students have just that.

Again, none of them have played more than independent ball since Doc "figured it out" with the motion-as far as I know. There really is no hard facts showing that pitching like this is revolutionary. All I hear are vague claims with no hard evidence to back it up, only guys defending it because "science" proves it. The scientific evidence I want to see is in the form of guys having success in pro ball. Its tough to play pro ball when Doc has guys training for 3/4 of the year, so I'm just looking for some hard evidence of this so-called "perfect motion" being effective.

I don’t get the feeling you a MM hater at all, but I do get the feeling that the only way you’d be convinced is to face P’s that throw that way in a game setting. Perhaps if you do get to meet up with fastbal95 or got to Doc’s facility, that will happen. But even if it does, as has been stated, during their workout phase they are not attempting to “pitch”, but rather to learn to pitch a certain way, so they wouldn’t be in top “shape” any more than a conventional P would be on the opening day of spring training. So, if you bombed a few out of the park, what would that prove?

For my preference, seeing guys pitch in a backyard into a net with their shirts off is not hard evidence to me. Get these guys out playing in a real league. Any league.

I agree. But let’s look at something. Mebbe someone can tell us exactly how many of students Docs has trained that he feels are far enough along to be considered fully functioning on his method. But for the sake of argument, lets say there’s 1,000.

Knowing that all human beings don’t have the same capabilities, let’s assume that 1 in 100 kids who play baseball between 6YO and HS age actually play HS ball, let’s use that same 1 in 10 ratio to the number of Doc’s students who would be skillful enough to play in some “league” at the age they are. That would be 10 players. Its gonna be difficult to track 10 players in the hundreds of thousands that play HS or above ball. Heck! It’d be difficult to track 1,000 players!

[beemax]

"That’s reasonable. But where does any pitcher get “proof” of how his velo had increased?"

Well, a radar gun is always good proof.

"I know you’ve given unflagging support to P’s like that and extolled the virtue of control and movement. I find that extremely refreshing. In fact, I’ve quoted the following to several people since you wrote it and told them it comes from a pro player, but in almost every case that person said you were nuts. That’s what baseball dogma does. It causes people to not think with their head."

Glad to hear that people think I'm nuts.:noidea If the people that you were talking to were expereienced baseball people (ie. having some playing experience or coaching experience above high school) and they said something like that, I would love to talk with them about it. Other than that, saying I am nuts when I talk about location, movement, and deception is ridiculous. Are these people you talked to advocates of velocity being the only factor in an effective pitcher? Anyway, enough about them.

"I don’t get the feeling you a MM hater at all, but I do get the feeling that the only way you’d be convinced is to face P’s that throw that way in a game setting. Perhaps if you do get to meet up with fastbal95 or got to Doc’s facility, that will happen. But even if it does, as has been stated, during their workout phase they are not attempting to “pitch”, but rather to learn to pitch a certain way, so they wouldn’t be in top “shape” any more than a conventional P would be on the opening day of spring training. So, if you bombed a few out of the park, what would that prove?"

Well they are learning to pitch, right? What's the point of working out for 3/4 of the year if you never pitch in games? If fastbal95 has three months to prepare for out meeting, don't you think that would be enough time? Keep in mind that I am in my offseason and haven't faced live pitching since my last game on September 3rd. I'm tired of this argument that they are "learning" to pitch this way. Just like I can only lift and hit soft toss so much, you can only throw to a net in the backyard with your shirt off for so long-at some point you have to go out and face competition. That's the real "scientific" evidence for being a good player, pitcher, coach, or scorekeeper.

"I agree. But let’s look at something. Mebbe someone can tell us exactly how many of students Docs has trained that he feels are far enough along to be considered fully functioning on his method. But for the sake of argument, lets say there’s 1,000.

Knowing that all human beings don’t have the same capabilities, let’s assume that 1 in 100 kids who play baseball between 6YO and HS age actually play HS ball, let’s use that same 1 in 10 ratio to the number of Doc’s students who would be skillful enough to play in some “league” at the age they are. That would be 10 players. Its gonna be difficult to track 10 players in the hundreds of thousands that play HS or above ball. Heck! It’d be difficult to track 1,000 players!"

I'm not saying that Doc has to get every kid into pro ball. If he wants to get them fully functioning, part of that is going out and playing games. I haven't heard much about that. All I have heard about is Doc working with a former big leaguer who now hasn't pitched competitively for 3 years, and another former pro ball player who most recently pitched in some college league. Doesn't sound like much of a revolutionary advancement in pitching for me.

[Postblank]

What exactly is with your fascination of our pitchers not wearing shirts? Those videos are taken in mid May in Central Florida, it is pretty warm around then.

[scorekeeper]

Well, a radar gun is always good proof.

:rofl: Would you really be satisfied with one of those guys saying he used to throw at 75 and now throws at 100? Be honest. If that were to happen, wouldn’t you then want to see the gun readings of all those guys, and if they all showed improvement would you be happy then?

Look. I understand why you’re skeptical. Heck, I’m skeptical too. But what exactly are you looking for that would allow you to accept that even one guy might be able to have success with that method?

Glad to hear that people think I'm nuts.:noidea If the people that you were talking to were expereienced baseball people (ie. having some playing experience or coaching experience above high school) and they said something like that, I would love to talk with them about it. Other than that, saying I am nuts when I talk about location, movement, and deception is ridiculous. Are these people you talked to advocates of velocity being the only factor in an effective pitcher? Anyway, enough about them.

Trust me, you wouldn’t want to talk to those people! You’d just be wasting your time because most of the time people who think that way are advocates that velocity is at least by far the primary factor in being an effective P.

Well they are learning to pitch, right? What's the point of working out for 3/4 of the year if you never pitch in games? If fastbal95 has three months to prepare for out meeting, don't you think that would be enough time? Keep in mind that I am in my offseason and haven't faced live pitching since my last game on September 3rd. I'm tired of this argument that they are "learning" to pitch this way. Just like I can only lift and hit soft toss so much, you can only throw to a net in the backyard with your shirt off for so long-at some point you have to go out and face competition. That's the real "scientific" evidence for being a good player, pitcher, coach, or scorekeeper.

I don’t know what the point is either, and I’m afraid that just another part of the reason for so much hat about the man. Now your using arguments that sound as though they come from frustration.

What would it prove if fb95 was in the best shape possible and you took him yard on every pitch? Would it mean all MM students suck? To me that’s as silly as saying that if he smoked you and you never hit even 1 ball fair, every pro hitter sucked.

I'm not saying that Doc has to get every kid into pro ball. If he wants to get them fully functioning, part of that is going out and playing games. I haven't heard much about that. All I have heard about is Doc working with a former big leaguer who now hasn't pitched competitively for 3 years, and another former pro ball player who most recently pitched in some college league. Doesn't sound like much of a revolutionary advancement in pitching for me.

That’s all perfectly reasonable and perfectly understandable. You simply aren’t convinced because the standard of proof you feel you need hasn’t been met. But all I’m saying is, the standard of proof you’re looking for is way out of whack if you compare it to someone teaching the traditional method.

Compare him to a traditional teacher who gets students of pretty much the same level, not studs like many of the guys like House get. Its pretty easy to look like a God when your partner is Nolan Ryan and one of your students is his son. You can bet a lot of his students aren’t coming off of serious arm injuries either.

I’m not advocating MM as the new guru. But I’m not saying he’s a total jerk because he hasn’t produced a HOF pitcher. How many traditional gurus have done that all by themselves? None, and no one ever will, but yet you demand MM does it. That just seems unreasonable to me.

Why don't you just wait to see for yourself? If after you get your 1st hand look at what's going on and perhaps get the chance to talk to MM andf you still think he's nothing but a fraud, that's fine.

[beemax]

Just joking about the shirts, my fascination lies in everything else I have been asking about in regard to MM.

[metrotheme]

I know I am late to the discussion but I want to put my $.02 in as someone who has a both a bachelors and masters degree in Kinesiology. I was recently introduced to Marshall's site. The information is alot to digest, and I am just starting to peruse it.

From strictly a motor learning standpoint, there is a reason why his program is so long, and that is because it takes a long time for an adult body to learn new mechanics for throwing. It is almost akin to learning a different walking pattern. The new throwing pattern has to be so ingrained that the body does not revert to the old pattern when in a game or pressure situation. For adults, I think over 95% of the neural patterns are closed, which makes it extremely difficult to diminish existing motor patterns.

As for the people who keep asking for "proof" or "stats" of Marshall's devotees, remember that you are working with a large self-selection bias. Marshall isn't getting the can't miss prospects. They are satisified with their results and aren't interested in learning anything new. He is getting players that are willing to give up at least a year to train with him and whatever sacrifices are necessary to learn his methods. His program is going need time for the word to spread and for people to buy in to his "unconventional" methods.

Biomechanically his methodology is sound, and if his primary concern is injury prevention and endurance, he'll satisfy that. All of this endurance will be for nothing if you cannot get hitters out. Baseball is becoming more of a lifetime sport, with men playing in rec leagues into their 50's. Just because he is not turning out pro players, doesn't mean he is turning out men who will learn how to keep their arms healthy to allow themselves to continue playing for many years (hopefully injury free).

For his students, how can his mechanics be transferred to position players?

[fastbal95]

Brett,

I can totally understand where you are coming from. When I first came open Doc's website and stuff, I was like, if this really works then why havent I heard about it before and how come there arent guys in the bigs doing it. When I finally spoke with Doc via email, I asked him numerous questions about every aspect of pitching. He had a answer that made sense to me for every question. When I asked the coaches, trainers, and yes even surgeons, for the Mets, they had no answer as to why I tore my labrum. They were clueless. I asked Doc the same question and he gave me a straightforward answer and told me what I needed to do to keep it from happening again or any other injury for that matter.

When Doc gets guys to train, he does not "teach" us anything. He shows us what he wants us to be able to do, and it is up to us, the individual to figure it out for ourselves. That is the only way that you truly learn something. I wish that the guys that Doc has trained previously, who had enormous talent and potential, made it somewhere. But they didnt. Some quit training, others were forced to change the way they threw in pro ball. The coaches wouldnt let them do the wrist weight exercises or throw the iron ball. I believe Brent Strom was one of those coaches. Does he mention that though, no. That is part of the problem. When guys to to pro ball or college even, the coaches will not allow them to throw the way Doc has showed us. They think that we will get injured, and they really have no clue. Its just sad. If coaches werer just to leave us alone and let us throw, I think you would find our guys having success.

With that being said though, its is not Doc's fault if the guys he trains arent successful. He cannot go out there and pitch for us or be there for every pitch and tell us what adjustment to make. It is up to the pitcher to make the most of what he has learned from what Doc has shown us. He can only guide us, he cant do it all for us. So if I go to Bridgeport this summer and tear it up, I guess that will validate Doc's motion in most peoples eyes. But I am the one pitching not Doc. Just like if I go there and suck, its not Doc's fault, but my own.

Sometimes a leap of faith is needed before, what some people on here call "proof", is shown.

[fastbal95]

Metro,

Thanks for your 2 cents. We appreciate it. Its good to see someone educated in your field that can validate what we are doing.

About your question with position players. Its is pretty easy. You do the program. But instead of throwing screwballs and curveballs, all you throw are maxline and torque fastballs. For example, a catcher would throw a maxline fastball down to second because it would move right into the runners path. However if the catcher was throwing to third, I believe Doc say to use the torque fastball. I might not be 100 percent accurate with this info, since I am not a position players myself, but if you sent Doc an email, he would be glad to explain it, better than me I'm sure.

[beemax]

"Would you really be satisfied with one of those guys saying he used to throw at 75 and now throws at 100? Be honest. If that were to happen, wouldn’t you then want to see the gun readings of all those guys, and if they all showed improvement would you be happy then?"

I think if anyone saw a 25mph improvement they would be happy to see it, myself included. That's not going to happen, though, and I have said again and again that pitching is location, movement, and deception. Not velocity. Even if I saw that I would still be skeptical of how well they could PITCH.

"Look. I understand why you’re skeptical. Heck, I’m skeptical too. But what exactly are you looking for that would allow you to accept that even one guy might be able to have success with that method?"

My skepticism would begin to cease if I saw one of these guys pitching effectively in a game, not just throwing hard in the backyard.

I said:

"Well they are learning to pitch, right? What's the point of working out for 3/4 of the year if you never pitch in games? If fastbal95 has three months to prepare for out meeting, don't you think that would be enough time? Keep in mind that I am in my offseason and haven't faced live pitching since my last game on September 3rd. I'm tired of this argument that they are "learning" to pitch this way. Just like I can only lift and hit soft toss so much, you can only throw to a net in the backyard with your shirt off for so long-at some point you have to go out and face competition. That's the real "scientific" evidence for being a good player, pitcher, coach, or scorekeeper."

And you said:

"I don’t know what the point is either, and I’m afraid that just another part of the reason for so much hat about the man. Now your using arguments that sound as though they come from frustration. "

What does that frustration comment even mean?

"What would it prove if fb95 was in the best shape possible and you took him yard on every pitch? Would it mean all MM students suck? To me that’s as silly as saying that if he smoked you and you never hit even 1 ball fair, every pro hitter sucked."

Remember that fb95 was the one that suggested we meet as a means of proving MM's theories to be valid. All I did was agree to do it if we got the oppourtunity.

"That’s all perfectly reasonable and perfectly understandable. You simply aren’t convinced because the standard of proof you feel you need hasn’t been met. But all I’m saying is, the standard of proof you’re looking for is way out of whack if you compare it to someone teaching the traditional method."

Why is looking for someone using this motion competitively at any level with success "out of whack" proof?

"Compare him to a traditional teacher who gets students of pretty much the same level, not studs like many of the guys like House get. Its pretty easy to look like a God when your partner is Nolan Ryan and one of your students is his son. You can bet a lot of his students aren’t coming off of serious arm injuries either."

I suppose you are talking about Tom House, but since you don't like using names (remember the pm I sent you that you didn't respond to about that mysterious Dodgers PC?), I'll just assume.

Tom House is not someone I consider a good pitching coach either. He gravy-trained Nolan Ryan and ruined Mark Prior. Oh, and I saw Nolan's son pitch in pro ball. He had no business being there. Tom House, no matter if he was with Nolan or not, NEVER looked like a God. Blasphemous.

"I’m not advocating MM as the new guru. But I’m not saying he’s a total jerk because he hasn’t produced a HOF pitcher. How many traditional gurus have done that all by themselves? None, and no one ever will, but yet you demand MM does it. That just seems unreasonable to me."

When did I ever say that I demanded he produce a HOF pitcher? What's the matter with you? Don't put words in my mouth.

"Why don't you just wait to see for yourself? If after you get your 1st hand look at what's going on and perhaps get the chance to talk to MM andf you still think he's nothing but a fraud, that's fine."

When did I say he was a fraud? Again putting words in my mouth. You stated earlier that facing fb95 would not prove much, now you're saying that I should get a first hand look? Wouldn't facing fb95 be considered a first hand look? That's a contradiction in my book. Why don't you look at what I say before you put words in my mouth and while you're at it, look at what you say so you don't contradict yourself.

[Postblank]

Metro,

Thanks for your 2 cents. We appreciate it. Its good to see someone educated in your field that can validate what we are doing.

About your question with position players. Its is pretty easy. You do the program. But instead of throwing screwballs and curveballs, all you throw are maxline and torque fastballs. For example, a catcher would throw a maxline fastball down to second because it would move right into the runners path. However if the catcher was throwing to third, I believe Doc say to use the torque fastball. I might not be 100 percent accurate with this info, since I am not a position players myself, but if you sent Doc an email, he would be glad to explain it, better than me I'm sure.
That sounds about right, because Doc advises similarly for Quarterbacks.

I think if anyone saw a 25mph improvement they would be happy to see it, myself included. That's not going to happen, though, and I have said again and again that pitching is location, movement, and deception. Not velocity. Even if I saw that I would still be skeptical of how well they could PITCH.
We have a guy that added 25 mph to his release velocity.

[fastbal95]

If Post is talking about who I think he is, than its closer to 20 pmh increase, but hey, thats still amazing. When, lets call him Charlie for arguement sake, came to Doc, he was 5'9" and about 140. He could barely break 60 on a gun. Now he is pitching on the club team at his school in NC. He is being clocked anywhere from upper 70's to low 80's and has an outstanding curveball. He is still 5'9" but now weighs about 160. Charlie has busted his butt and made something out of himself. He has the best torque body action out of anyone Doc has ever trained. He has worked so hard and deserves whatever success he gets. I believe he has worked this hard because of his lack of genetic talent. If everyone worked as hard as him, we would see some superstars. It would not surprise me to see Charlie on the real school team sometime very soon. Its D1 also. Applachian State.

I forgot to mention that this did not happen overnight. It took Charlie three years. But if you ask him, I think he'd tell you it was worth it. Sometimes the best thing in life take sacrifice.

[Baseball gLove]

What exactly is with your fascination of our pitchers not wearing shirts? Those videos are taken in mid May in Central Florida, it is pretty warm around then.

I think not wearing the shirts are actually beneficial to the study of their mechanics.

[fastbal95]

Baseball Love,

You are correct. We do not wear shirts when Doc takes high speed film of us. We want to be able to see exactly what it is that we do. Good or bad. And not wearing a shirt allows us to see exactly how our body moves, muscles and all.

[Postblank]

I think not wearing the shirts are actually beneficial to the study of their mechanics.Absolutely. I'm pretty sure that Marshall wasn't wearing a shirt when he first took high speed of himself in the 1967 offseason. No doubt it helped him see what muscles were utilized in his traditional motion and what weren't (like the triceps).

[scorekeeper]

I think if anyone saw a 25mph improvement they would be happy to see it, myself included. That's not going to happen, though, and I have said again and again that pitching is location, movement, and deception. Not velocity. Even if I saw that I would still be skeptical of how well they could PITCH.

You’re assuming things that would convince you will never happen, and then saying, even if they did, you wouldn’t be convinced anyway. That’s a tough audience to win over. ;)

My skepticism would begin to cease if I saw one of these guys pitching effectively in a game, not just throwing hard in the backyard.

Well, hopefully you’ll get to see someone using that method in a game, then you’ll be able to make an informed decision. What I’m afraid of though, is if you see someone throw in a game at say the Semi-pro or JUCO level, even if he’s successful, you say something like: He’d get killed in pro ball! IOW, I get the distinct feeling that unless and until you see someone having Josh Becket, Jacke Peavy, Roger Clemens, or a similar guy’s success, you’ll still be skeptical.

What does that frustration comment even mean?

It simply means that to me it appears that you’re sounding frustrated because you don’t understand why some people don’t have to prove themselves in the area fighting lions. I didn’t mean anything derogatory.

Remember that fb95 was the one that suggested we meet as a means of proving MM's theories to be valid. All I did was agree to do it if we got the oppourtunity.

And? It sure sounds to me as though there is absolutely nothing that will change your mind, but that you are curious, just in case there’s something to this nutty theory. IOW, you’re an agnostic not an atheist when it comes to MM.

Why is looking for someone using this motion competitively at any level with success "out of whack" proof?

Because you’re trying to compare one man capabilities to pass on knowledge of his method to maybe 1,000 people, with the capabilities of tens of thousands of people passing on a different method to millions.

I suppose you are talking about Tom House, but since you don't like using names (remember the pm I sent you that you didn't respond to about that mysterious Dodgers PC?), I'll just assume.

I don’t know you required a response.

Tom house’s collaboration with Nolan Ryan is not a secret. In fact, I’ve see a video someone purchased of Tom’s that used Nolan and his son to show how great a coach he was.

Tom House is not someone I consider a good pitching coach either. He gravy-trained Nolan Ryan and ruined Mark Prior. Oh, and I saw Nolan's son pitch in pro ball. He had no business being there. Tom House, no matter if he was with Nolan or not, NEVER looked like a God. Blasphemous.

I did not say TH wasn’t a good pitching coach! I don’t agree with some of the things he advocates, but it’s a stretch to say he’s not a good PC. Like MM, TH has changed his tune over the years as more information has become available.

I don’t like to hear people say things like, “he had no business being there”. He had every bit as much business being there as you do. He signed a contract just like you did. Whether or not he got there based on his name, contacts, or skills is an entirely different issue, and one I’d love to deal with in its own thread.

When did I ever say that I demanded he produce a HOF pitcher? What's the matter with you? Don't put words in my mouth.

I didn’t mean to say you demanded a HOF P as proof, but rather that you demand much more proof than what’s reasonable under the circumstances. I just stated it badly. My Bad.

When did I say he was a fraud? Again putting words in my mouth.

That’s the implication I get when no matter is offered to you, you either disregard or want more.

You stated earlier that facing fb95 would not prove much, now you're saying that I should get a first hand look?

What I said earlier is:
Perhaps if you do get to meet up with fastbal95 or got to Doc’s facility, that will happen. But even if it does, as has been stated, during their workout phase they are not attempting to “pitch”, but rather to learn to pitch a certain way, so they wouldn’t be in top “shape” any more than a conventional P would be on the opening day of spring training. So, if you bombed a few out of the park, what would that prove?

Later I said:
Why don't you just wait to see for yourself? If after you get your 1st hand look at what's going on and perhaps get the chance to talk to MM andf you still think he's nothing but a fraud, that's fine.
Wouldn't facing fb95 be considered a first hand look? That's a contradiction in my book.

It would be if you actually faced him in a game, and if he was on your level. A pro blasting a few against a little leaguer wouldn’t prove anything either.

Why don't you look at what I say before you put words in my mouth and while you're at it, look at what you say so you don't contradict yourself.

I do look very closely at not only what you say, but how you say it. So far, although you don’t come across to me as a pure hater of MM, you do come across as someone who will never be satisfied with any evidence you’re given that proves his method is a viable one that certainly could be used at any level, including the ML.

If I’m wrong in my take, I’m sorry. But there’s no reason to get all upset. Its only a discussion about baseball.

[jofus13]

If Post is talking about who I think he is, than its closer to 20 pmh increase, but hey, thats still amazing. When, lets call him Charlie for arguement sake, came to Doc, he was 5'9" and about 140. He could barely break 60 on a gun. Now he is pitching on the club team at his school in NC. He is being clocked anywhere from upper 70's to low 80's and has an outstanding curveball. He is still 5'9" but now weighs about 160. Charlie has busted his butt and made something out of himself. He has the best torque body action out of anyone Doc has ever trained. He has worked so hard and deserves whatever success he gets. I believe he has worked this hard because of his lack of genetic talent. If everyone worked as hard as him, we would see some superstars. It would not surprise me to see Charlie on the real school team sometime very soon. Its D1 also. Applachian State.

I forgot to mention that this did not happen overnight. It took Charlie three years. But if you ask him, I think he'd tell you it was worth it. Sometimes the best thing in life take sacrifice.


Well, if he's college age now, and put on 20 lbs, the maturing and muscle gain (I assume at least part of the 20 lbs was muscle) would account for some increase in velocity, right? Plus, if you take someone who has a terrible throwing motion and do some elementary fixes, you could probably add 10 mph almost overnight.

Not saying that means this dude's technique is bad or anything, just making a couple observations :)

[beemax]

I said:

"I think if anyone saw a 25mph improvement they would be happy to see it, myself included. That's not going to happen, though, and I have said again and again that pitching is location, movement, and deception. Not velocity. Even if I saw that I would still be skeptical of how well they could PITCH."

In response, you said:

"You’re assuming things that would convince you will never happen, and then saying, even if they did, you wouldn’t be convinced anyway. That’s a tough audience to win over. ;)"

Again, putting words in my mouth. I said that if I saw a 25mph increase, I would be happy to see it. I then said that it will never happen, because that is my belief. I then said that if I saw it, I would still be skeptical of how they could pitch. I said this because velocity is not an indicator of a good pitcher. I know you agree with the last sentence. I would be convinced in the velo increase if I saw it, yes, but not in their ability to pitch. I think that's where you misunderstood. Let me rephrase, since you are beginning to put words in my mouth way too much: If I see a MM student that can pitch effectively at a competitive level, no matter his veloicty, my skepticism will fade.

"Well, hopefully you’ll get to see someone using that method in a game, then you’ll be able to make an informed decision. What I’m afraid of though, is if you see someone throw in a game at say the Semi-pro or JUCO level, even if he’s successful, you say something like: He’d get killed in pro ball! IOW, I get the distinct feeling that unless and until you see someone having Josh Becket, Jacke Peavy, Roger Clemens, or a similar guy’s success, you’ll still be skeptical."

"He'd get killed in pro ball?" Now you are assuming what I am going to say? Again putting words into my mouth. For someone that has claimed to be so calculated in who he mentions on a public forum, you sure seem to have no problem assuming things about me. Again, I ask you to stop putting words in my mouth and assuming what a person who you have never met would say.

As for your "distinct feeling," it is wrong. If I face or see a MM delivery work at a level the kid should be playing at (not a former pro playing in a college league), that would be some nice evidence to start a case for the MM delivery working. Until then, I will be skeptical. I don't have to see Roger Clemens, as you say you think I need to, but I do have to see a pitcher using this delivery in more than a backyard.

"It sure sounds to me as though there is absolutely nothing that will change your mind, but that you are curious, just in case there’s something to this nutty theory. IOW, you’re an agnostic not an atheist when it comes to MM."

Skeptical, yes. Agnostic? Wow. So you think I claim neither faith nor disbelief in MM? For now, I'm claiming disbelief. I'm open to becoming a born again MM believer if there is some evidence:)

"I did not say TH wasn’t a good pitching coach! I don’t agree with some of the things he advocates, but it’s a stretch to say he’s not a good PC. Like MM, TH has changed his tune over the years as more information has become available."

I didn't say that you said TH was a good coach, (again putting words in my mouth) so relax there. I do agree with most of what you say afterward though. I know I wouldn't send my kid to him because I don't like the way he teaches. That's just a matter of opinion.

"I don’t like to hear people say things like, “he had no business being there”. He had every bit as much business being there as you do. He signed a contract just like you did. Whether or not he got there based on his name, contacts, or skills is an entirely different issue, and one I’d love to deal with in its own thread."

That again is a matter of opinion. I saw his son pitch in person, so I have a right to have an opinion about him. I'd like to think his 0-10 record in his only full pro season with a 9.38 ERA, 115 hits, 82 ER, and 66BB to only 53Ks in 78IP backs up that opinion. Just like you saying he had every bit as much business being there, which I believe he didn't. If you want to start a thread on your comment above, please do so. Just because he signed a contract didn't mean he deserved to be there.

"I didn’t mean to say you demanded a HOF P as proof, but rather that you demand much more proof than what’s reasonable under the circumstances. I just stated it badly. My Bad."

What is reasonable proof to you?

"It would be if you actually faced him in a game, and if he was on your level. A pro blasting a few against a little leaguer wouldn’t prove anything either."

What about a pro facing a former pro who wants to get back into pro ball? That's the example if Joe and I meet up. A pro blasting a little leaguer? Where did that come from?

"I do look very closely at not only what you say, but how you say it. So far, although you don’t come across to me as a pure hater of MM, you do come across as someone who will never be satisfied with any evidence you’re given that proves his method is a viable one that certainly could be used at any level, including the ML."

Never be satisfied with any evidence? I need to have some evidence to see before I can decide if I am satisfied. So far I haven't seen any.

"If I’m wrong in my take, I’m sorry. But there’s no reason to get all upset. Its only a discussion about baseball."

Absolutely true. But there is also no reason to put words in my mouth. We can argue, discuss, disagree, all we want. I enjoy it, but I really do not appreciate you continuing to put words in my mouth. It slander's my name, and that is not okay.

[Deemax]

Joe

If your goal is to return to pro ball I would consider changing your approach to pitching. I watched your videos numerous times, and IMO the delivery your working on wont allow you to have enough stuff to compete. It also takes away your biggest advantage, that being deception vs. lefties.

IMO Docs delivery does reduce injury, but not for the reasons his students think. Docs linear approach limits rotation, torque, deception, and arm speed. If your arm is moving slower then its capable of the risk for injury goes way down.

Joe, there are six or seven batting cages in your area. Go to one of them and see what your fastball is at. If its in the 85-89 range that it was in when you were a pro, then maybe your on the right track...but if its in the 70's, which by watching your video it appears to be, then try something else.(mechanically).

If I were you I would consider becoming a side arming/submarine lefty who pitches around the corner...fastball, sweeping breaker, changeup. There is always a place for a lefty who gets lefties out. IMO this will give you a better shot of competing with your peers. Just think about it.

[scorekeeper]

If I see a MM student that can pitch effectively at a competitive level, no matter his veloicty, my skepticism will fade.

Now that makes sense, but its not what I interpreted as what you were saying. Now all You have to do is define what competitive level means.

Will you be happy with one of those guys pitching in competition and having equal or better than success than the traditional P’s, or will it take one of them pitching in the pros?

"He'd get killed in pro ball?" Now you are assuming what I am going to say? Again putting words into my mouth. For someone that has claimed to be so calculated in who he mentions on a public forum, you sure seem to have no problem assuming things about me. Again, I ask you to stop putting words in my mouth and assuming what a person who you have never met would say.

How is it that when I say: “I get the distinct feeling that unless and until you see someone having Josh Becket, Jacke Peavy, Roger Clemens, or a similar guy’s success, you’ll still be skeptical", I’m putting words into your mouth? Do you not understand what “I get the feeling” means? It means that’s the impression I get because of the way you make your case.

As for your "distinct feeling," it is wrong. If I face or see a MM delivery work at a level the kid should be playing at (not a former pro playing in a college league), that would be some nice evidence to start a case for the MM delivery working. Until then, I will be skeptical. I don't have to see Roger Clemens, as you say you think I need to, but I do have to see a pitcher using this delivery in more than a backyard.

I hope my feeling is wrong! I hope you’re a more intellectually honest person than those who would pre-judge, and thus look at a P with a biased eye.

That brings up a question. Now don’t go saying I’m putting words into your mouth or making assumptions that aren’t true.

If there were 10 pitchers throwing and 3 were using the MM method, and all 3 seemed to have equal velocity, movement, and command, if no one told you who they were, do you think you’d be able to pick them out by their full speed mechanics alone?

Skeptical, yes. Agnostic? Wow. So you think I claim neither faith nor disbelief in MM? For now, I'm claiming disbelief. I'm open to becoming a born again MM believer if there is some evidence:)

Here’s where I think so many people make a big mistake. It may well be that MM and his students are zealots who refuse to take anything less than 100% belief that their way is the only way, but most people like myself don’t feel that way at all. We neither believe or disbelieve, are hopeful or skeptical, and are willing to let whatever happens, happen.

In one sense though, I have to admit that I am hopeful that someone finally figgers out what it is that tears up so many arms. But I don’t’ care if its MM’s method or not.

I didn't say that you said TH was a good coach, (again putting words in my mouth) so relax there. I do agree with most of what you say afterward though. I know I wouldn't send my kid to him because I don't like the way he teaches. That's just a matter of opinion.

I wasn’t saying you said I said anything! Jeez Beemax, you’re getting carried away with this stuff. I was just making a statement. I didn’t want anyone to think I was “endorsing” anyone, but by the same token, I’m not gonna take shots at he guy when he’s got a following lie he does. He’s obviously helped some and not others.

That again is a matter of opinion. I saw his son pitch in person, so I have a right to have an opinion about him. I'd like to think his 0-10 record in his only full pro season with a 9.38 ERA, 115 hits, 82 ER, and 66BB to only 53Ks in 78IP backs up that opinion. Just like you saying he had every bit as much business being there, which I believe he didn't. If you want to start a thread on your comment above, please do so. Just because he signed a contract didn't mean he deserved to be there.

I’ve seen his son pitch in person too, and I don’t think he earned his way there the way most other players have, but once he signed that contract, he deserved to be there. Again, how some guys make it and others don’t is a great topic, but not for this thread.

What is reasonable proof to you?

I’m a bad person to ask that question of because of my beliefs that “making it” is just as much a mater of opportunity as anything else.

What about a pro facing a former pro who wants to get back into pro ball? That's the example if Joe and I meet up. A pro blasting a little leaguer? Where did that come from?

Is Joe saying he’s ready for pro ball again right now? Don’t just look at the words you don’t like. Look at the context.

Never be satisfied with any evidence? I need to have some evidence to see before I can decide if I am satisfied. So far I haven't seen any.

Hopefully you get whatever you need, one way or the other.

Absolutely true. But there is also no reason to put words in my mouth. We can argue, discuss, disagree, all we want. I enjoy it, but I really do not appreciate you continuing to put words in my mouth. It slander's my name, and that is not okay.

How can it slander your name if you don’t use it? ;)

What you see as me putting words into your mouth is simply me trying to interpret what you say because you don’t say it in a way I can understand how you want me to take it. I don’t know you, so I have no reason to try to make you look good or bad. All I do is ask questions when I don’t understand something, state how I interpret something that’s said, or pass on my opinion about something.

[fastbal95]

Deemax,

I appreciate your opinion. Thank you, but I will have to respectively disagree. I wish Doc would take my video down, because honestly I wasnt very good at it. I had only worked with him for 4 months when it was taken. I am far far better today. With that said though, with that horrible motion (lol) and only a minimum baseline strength, I pitched extremely well this summer, although it was a collegiate summer league, there were other ex pros and former college players in it also. You are correct about my velocity in that video. I was not out of regression yet, and honestly not anywhere near as strong as I am today. Still over the summer I was regularly in the mid 80's.

I"MO Docs delivery does reduce injury, but not for the reasons his students think. Docs linear approach limits rotation, torque, deception, and arm speed. If your arm is moving slower then its capable of the risk for injury goes way down."

Again I have to disagree. We have no injuries because we use different, bigger muscles than traditional pitchers. We rotate farther than any traditional pitcher. Im hoping Chris will help me post either a pic or video to show all of you guys this. The difference in our rotation compared to traditional pitchers is that we rotate over our glove foot and not pitching foot. And also we rotate our shoulders with our hips at the same time, unlike other pitchers. We are in fact very deceptive. Ask hitters who have faced us, they came up to me all summer long after games and asked how I could pitch like that and where I learned it. I know you cant actually ask any of them because you have no clue who they are, but you get my point.

The shortest distance between two points is a straight line. Would you agree that shortest also translates to quickest, and quickest to fastest. So putting all your force in a straight line towards home plate equals the shortest distance to throw the ball. Hence, the ball gets there quicker, or faster. If you use a circular path, the force you apply when throwing goes off on a tangent line to your arm path, which is not straight towards home plate. Therefore force is wasted, and you cant apply as much directly towards home plate. If I were to run a 40 yard dash in a straight line, and you ran it in a circle, who do you think would finish first? I hope this analogy helps explain things.

"If I were you I would consider becoming a side arming/submarine lefty who pitches around the corner...fastball, sweeping breaker, changeup. There is always a place for a lefty who gets lefties out. IMO this will give you a better shot of competing with your peers. Just think about it."

I have thought about this, and in my experience with pitching traditionally and using Docs motion, his is better. I agree that a lefty who can get lefties out should always be able to find a place to pitch. In my opinion though, being a situational lefty would be a disservice to my gifts. I want to try and be the best pitcher I can, genetically speaking, and I believe it is far better than a sit lefty. Ill say this again. Until you really see us pitch in person, you dont really understand. The video does not do what we do justice. Thats why I hope to have to opportunity to pitch in Bridgeport and show off what I can do when Im out of regression and throwing competitively.

With regards to our velocity. What happens is that we throw everyday when we train. It takes about a month to come out of that regression. When we throw in regression we are throwing as hard as we possibly can, yet the ball does not go as fast as it should. Then it just happens like one day. You start to throw and the ball just explodes out of your hand. Thats what happened to me over the summer. Your body finally has adapted to all the stress you put on it while training and is now ready to go. Also, throwing in competition actually causes a little mini regression because now we have more addreneline pumping and we can juice it even more. I hope this makes sense to everyone.

[fastbal95]

"Quote:
Originally Posted by beemax
What about a pro facing a former pro who wants to get back into pro ball? That's the example if Joe and I meet up. A pro blasting a little leaguer? Where did that come from?

Is Joe saying he’s ready for pro ball again right now? Don’t just look at the words you don’t like. Look at the context."


I will be the first to say that as of today, no I am not ready, just like Im sure Brett is not ready to start playing games as of today. Also, I was not ready to pitch pro ball again last summer. I knew it, thats why I played in a collegiate summer league. I needed to gain experience pitching this way before I went and pitched pro ball again. I went to numerous tryouts and did extremely well. Two of them were for independent teams, which wanted me to pitch for them, I had to respectfully decline. It didnt make me happy to do this, but I knew I was not yet ready. I am putting a whole lot of time into this, Im not going to rush it. With that being said, I believe that by the time Independent Leagues start to get going, I will be ready. I will come out of regression and be ready. Their "spring training" time will also help me prepare for games where it means something, ie. their season.

[Deemax]

The shortest distance between two points is a straight line. Would you agree that shortest also translates to quickest, and quickest to fastest. So putting all your force in a straight line towards home plate equals the shortest distance to throw the ball. Hence, the ball gets there quicker, or faster. If you use a circular path, the force you apply when throwing goes off on a tangent line to your arm path, which is not straight towards home plate. Therefore force is wasted, and you cant apply as much directly towards home plate. If I were to run a 40 yard dash in a straight line, and you ran it in a circle, who do you think would finish first? I hope this analogy helps explain things.


I understand the analogy and totally disagree...respecfully. The shortest distance is not always the strongest. Since your using analogies from other sports try and apply Docs theory to the discus, hammer toss, shot put, swinging a bat, chopping wood, and golf.

What punch has more force for a boxer?
A. a 100% effort jab (left hand)
B. or a left hook

The hook does...Why?

[Go Cardinals]

I understand the analogy and totally disagree...respecfully. The shortest distance is not always the strongest. Since your using analogies from other sports try and apply Docs theory to the discus, hammer toss, shot put, swinging a bat, chopping wood, and golf.

What punch has more force for a boxer?
A. a 100% effort jab (left hand)
B. or a left hook

The hook does...Why?

It has a longer path = more momentum

[fastbal95]

Deemax,

"What punch has more force for a boxer?
A. a 100% effort jab (left hand)
B. or a left hook

The hook does...Why?"

I tend to disagree with you but it depends and here is why. I would say a straight jab would have more force ONLY if the boxer leaned back to apply force in the opposite direction. This is how we throw. The more force applied opposite the punch, the more force the punch has.

With regards to the hammer throw, discus, and shot put. I think you are comparing apples to oranges. These three events do not require you to be accurate with your throws. They throw for distance, and distance only. Baseball requires a pitcher to throw to a spot, not just for distance. In baseball, you need to put a baseball within 17 inches of the strikezone, and however high it is, I guess that really depends on the umpire, lol.

I cannot comment really on hitting or golf because thats not what I do or study. When I hit in college I just swung the bat and tried to hit it as hard as possible. I was good, but it was more of a fun thing for me, where as pitching was my main focus.

"I understand the analogy and totally disagree...respecfully. The shortest distance is not always the strongest."

Would you say that strength comes from power. The definition of power is the rate at which work is done or the rate at which energy is transformed from one form to another. The def of work is an activity involving a force and movement in the directon of the force. P=W/rate T where P is power, W is work, and rate T is the rate of time. If you do the same amount of work in a faster rate of time, you have more power.

Does this analogy work for you? If we both throw an 85 mph fastball, but you throw it from 60 feet 6 inches and I throw it from 55 feet, which one will get to home plate faster? Which one will "seem" faster to the hitter?

[beemax]

Does this analogy work for you? If we both throw an 85 mph fastball, but you throw it from 60 feet 6 inches and I throw it from 55 feet, which one will get to home plate faster? Which one will "seem" faster to the hitter?

With all do respect Joe, the "conventional delivery" does not release the ball from 60 feet 6 inches. I'd say go back and look at the video my father took of Greg Maddux throwing a bullpen. How far from home plate do you think he releases the ball? That analogy you used doesn't work for me, because I have seen your guy's videos from the side, and you don't release the ball from any closer distance than any other pitcher. It doesn't make sense. I just looked at your video, and compared with Maddux's side view you release significantly farther back than Maddux.

[beemax]

Scorekeeper, you said:

"Now that makes sense, but its not what I interpreted as what you were saying. Now all You have to do is define what competitive level means.

Will you be happy with one of those guys pitching in competition and having equal or better than success than the traditional P’s, or will it take one of them pitching in the pros?"


If they can pitch effectively at whatever level they should be at (not a former pro in a college league) while putting up respectable numbers, that would be something to discuss as far as Doc's delievery being worth it. Joe told me earlier that around 2006, Doc "figured it out" with regards to eveything he is teaching. Because of that comment I am going to look at post 2006 MM pitchers to get any evidence of this being effective.


"How is it that when I say: “I get the distinct feeling that unless and until you see someone having Josh Becket, Jacke Peavy, Roger Clemens, or a similar guy’s success, you’ll still be skeptical", I’m putting words into your mouth? Do you not understand what “I get the feeling” means? It means that’s the impression I get because of the way you make your case."


Did I say that with regard to that quote? No. When you said: "What I’m afraid of though, is if you see someone throw in a game at say the Semi-pro or JUCO level, even if he’s successful, you say something like: He’d get killed in pro ball!," I took that as putting words in my mouth. Carefully read over the quote and the previous response (as you say you always do) and you will see that I did not accuse you of putting words in my mouth with the Beckett, Peavy, Clemens quote.


"That brings up a question. Now don’t go saying I’m putting words into your mouth or making assumptions that aren’t true.

If there were 10 pitchers throwing and 3 were using the MM method, and all 3 seemed to have equal velocity, movement, and command, if no one told you who they were, do you think you’d be able to pick them out by their full speed mechanics alone?"


Yes, I would be able to pick them out.


"I’ve seen his son pitch in person too, and I don’t think he earned his way there the way most other players have, but once he signed that contract, he deserved to be there. Again, how some guys make it and others don’t is a great topic, but not for this thread."


So if you signed a contract tday to play pro ball, would that mean you deserve to be there to? That doesn't make sense to me.


"Is Joe saying he’s ready for pro ball again right now? Don’t just look at the words you don’t like. Look at the context."


Again, he asked me if we wanted to meet and I said, "ok." That's the context I am looking at.


"How can it slander your name if you don’t use it? ;)"


Because if you read carefully, as you say you do, you will see that Joe (fastbal95) calls me Brett, as in Brett McMillan, my name. My name is out here already, so people know that if "beemax" posts, it is me. You don't have to use my name to slander it on here because people already know that "beemax" is Brett McMillan.


"What you see as me putting words into your mouth is simply me trying to interpret what you say because you don’t say it in a way I can understand how you want me to take it. I don’t know you, so I have no reason to try to make you look good or bad. All I do is ask questions when I don’t understand something, state how I interpret something that’s said, or pass on my opinion about something."


Believe what you will about putting words in my mouth. Frankly I'm tired of our dialouge.

[fastbal95]

Brett,

I never said that traditional pitchers release at 60 feet 6 inches. Those numbers were just arbitrary. I just wanted to show the difference in feet, thats all. Because some of us dont release the ball as good as Doc would like, not does mean that it doesnt happen with our motion. If Chris is able to help me, I will show you what Im talking about. Or better yet, see for yourself. Go to Docs website and click on his video. Then click on biomechanical flaws. If you scroll forward to minute marker 4:35, you will see one of our guys throw. His driveline starts his arm length behind the rubber. I would say 3 feet behind the rubber as a guess. When he actually releases the ball, it is 9 feet in front of the rubber. That is a driveline of about 12 feet. Would you not say? Each one of the green boards is 6 inches or .5 feet. If you watch it and then stop it at 4:43 you can see he had jus released the ball. At the start of the rubber, to where his hand is at release, I have counted either 17 or 18 boards, its a little hard to get the exact number. Lets say its 18 for arguement sake, 18 times .5 is 9 feet. He has released the ball nine feet in front of the rubber. I would say thats pretty far, farther than most if not all traditional pitchers. Notice how his pitching knee is almost equal with his glove knee at release. His hips are much farther rotated then any traditional pitcher. We are trying to at the very least, get this. We are and continue to strive to get even better, farther out, than this.

Also, dont look at my video and think thats what I look like today. That was only after 4 months. I am much better today. The more you work at something, the better you get.

[beemax]

Brett,

I never said that traditional pitchers release at 60 feet 6 inches. Those numbers were just arbitrary. I just wanted to show the difference in feet, thats all. Because some of us dont release the ball as good as Doc would like, not does mean that it doesnt happen with our motion. If Chris is able to help me, I will show you what Im talking about. Or better yet, see for yourself. Go to Docs website and click on his video. Then click on biomechanical flaws. If you scroll forward to minute marker 4:35, you will see one of our guys throw. His driveline starts his arm length behind the rubber. I would say 3 feet behind the rubber as a guess. When he actually releases the ball, it is 9 feet in front of the rubber. That is a driveline of about 12 feet. Would you not say? Each one of the green boards is 6 inches or .5 feet. If you watch it and then stop it at 4:43 you can see he had jus released the ball. At the start of the rubber, to where his hand is at release, I have counted either 17 or 18 boards, its a little hard to get the exact number. Lets say its 18 for arguement sake, 18 times .5 is 9 feet. He has released the ball nine feet in front of the rubber. I would say thats pretty far, farther than most if not all traditional pitchers. Notice how his pitching knee is almost equal with his glove knee at release. His hips are much farther rotated then any traditional pitcher. We are trying to at the very least, get this. We are and continue to strive to get even better, farther out, than this.

Also, dont look at my video and think thats what I look like today. That was only after 4 months. I am much better today. The more you work at something, the better you get.

I just looked at the video and I only saw one of Doc's guys throwing with the behind home plate view. to my untrained eye, he was nowhere near nine feet in front of the rubber. Maybe my computer is screwed up because I didn't see a side view in that video.

[scorekeeper]

If they can pitch effectively at whatever level they should be at (not a former pro in a college league) while putting up respectable numbers, that would be something to discuss as far as Doc's delievery being worth it. Joe told me earlier that around 2006, Doc "figured it out" with regards to eveything he is teaching. Because of that comment I am going to look at post 2006 MM pitchers to get any evidence of this being effective.

If memory serves me, Joe was done as a pro, so why does he have to get back to something the way I understand it, he couldn’t do at all with the traditional motion?

Did I say that with regard to that quote? No. When you said: "What I’m afraid of though, is if you see someone throw in a game at say the Semi-pro or JUCO level, even if he’s successful, you say something like: He’d get killed in pro ball!," I took that as putting words in my mouth. Carefully read over the quote and the previous response (as you say you always do) and you will see that I did not accuse you of putting words in my mouth with the Beckett, Peavy, Clemens quote.

To tell the truth, without you using the quote feature, its really difficult and time consuming for me to go back and find everything. But be that as it may, didn’t the phrase What I’m afraid of though tell you that I was speaking about what my impression was rather than me saying what you’d actually do?

Yes, I would be able to pick them out.

Pretty interesting. I disagree, but let’s not argue about it now.

So if you signed a contract tday to play pro ball, would that mean you deserve to be there to? That doesn't make sense to me.

Does every pro player DESERVE what their contract entitles them to? I don’t particularly like seeing what I consider an over-the-hill or low quality guy getting millions of dollars, but if someone’s willing to pay it, I think they deserve it.

Do you believe that there never have been any players who should have made the pros or gotten to the show, but didn’t? IOW, is every professional player better than every non-professional player?

Again, he asked me if we wanted to meet and I said, "ok." That's the context I am looking at.

But you’re saying he should be only be evaluated as a pro. Is that fair when he says up front that he’s not ready for that? I don’t get the feeling that him wanting to meet with you is not to show you he’s ready for the pros, so why would you want to evaluate him that way?

Because if you read carefully, as you say you do, you will see that Joe (fastbal95) calls me Brett, as in Brett McMillan, my name. My name is out here already, so people know that if "beemax" posts, it is me. You don't have to use my name to slander it on here because people already know that "beemax" is Brett McMillan.

Until you put it in this post, nowhere in this thread or any other I can find, was you’re last name used. Don’t fault me for what someone else does. I knew you’re name because you told me in a PM, and although I knew it, I never used it in any post I’ve made.

Believe what you will about putting words in my mouth. Frankly I'm tired of our dialouge.

Fine. Then quit posting answers to what I post. Let it drop.

[fastbal95]

Did you look at what I told you to look at? Or did you watch one of the evaluations of the 2007 pitchers? In the biomechanical flaw section of Doc's video, on minute marker 2:51, there is a pitcher throwing, but its from the front view. Look at minute marker 4:35 and then pause it at 4:43.

When you go to Doc's website, you need to scroll down to,

FREE Baseball Pitching Instructional Video!!!

Then once you are directed to the new screen, scroll down at click on,

04. Biomechanical Flaws

Then go to minute marker 4:35 and watch that. Then tell me what you see.

[scorekeeper]

fastball95,

I give you tons of props for maintaining your composure in a very very difficult situation where no matter what you say or do, it seems that what you’re trying to say is never understood. All you can do is to continue to try to get people to understand things the way you do, but I’m afraid that in this particular situation, that’s an impossible task.

I’m curious. When you were a professional pitcher, did you think you understood hitting enough to argue with hitters about what worked and what didn’t? ;)

[Postblank]

If memory serves me, Joe was done as a pro, so why does he have to get back to something the way I understand it, he couldn’t do at all with the traditional motion?

Joe wasn't done, he just tore his labrum. The Mets wanted him to get surgery, he decided to try something other than what got him hurt and bypass surgery. Considering how well Joe did his first year in the organization, I'd imagine he would've had a job to go back to if he was an idiot and just blindly did what the Mets wanted him to do. However, if Joe got the surgery, it's entirely plausible he would've been done.

[Baseball gLove]

Brett,

I never said that traditional pitchers release at 60 feet 6 inches. Those numbers were just arbitrary. I just wanted to show the difference in feet, thats all. Because some of us dont release the ball as good as Doc would like, not does mean that it doesnt happen with our motion. If Chris is able to help me, I will show you what Im talking about. Or better yet, see for yourself. Go to Docs website and click on his video. Then click on biomechanical flaws. If you scroll forward to minute marker 4:35, you will see one of our guys throw. His driveline starts his arm length behind the rubber. I would say 3 feet behind the rubber as a guess. When he actually releases the ball, it is 9 feet in front of the rubber. That is a driveline of about 12 feet. Would you not say? Each one of the green boards is 6 inches or .5 feet. If you watch it and then stop it at 4:43 you can see he had jus released the ball. At the start of the rubber, to where his hand is at release, I have counted either 17 or 18 boards, its a little hard to get the exact number. Lets say its 18 for arguement sake, 18 times .5 is 9 feet. He has released the ball nine feet in front of the rubber. I would say thats pretty far, farther than most if not all traditional pitchers. Notice how his pitching knee is almost equal with his glove knee at release. His hips are much farther rotated then any traditional pitcher. We are trying to at the very least, get this. We are and continue to strive to get even better, farther out, than this.

Also, dont look at my video and think thats what I look like today. That was only after 4 months. I am much better today. The more you work at something, the better you get.


You can not use those boards as a measurement tool unless it was a lot closer to the mound. You need to measure from where pitcher's foot touches the rubber to the point where he releases the ball. Jeff Sparks' release point is over his front foot at 1.16-1.17 of the clip. His release point is not that much in front of his head and is comparable to a Major League Pitcher.

[scorekeeper]

Joe wasn't done, he just tore his labrum. The Mets wanted him to get surgery, he decided to try something other than what got him hurt and bypass surgery. Considering how well Joe did his first year in the organization, I'd imagine he would've had a job to go back to if he was an idiot and just blindly did what the Mets wanted him to do. However, if Joe got the surgery, it's entirely plausible he would've been done.

So, for all intents and purposes, he was no longer able to pitch at the professional level, as he was. That’s why I’m wondering why now he’s being asked to prove himself at a level he could no longer realistically pitch at.

Heck, if he tore his labrum and can even manage to throw a baseball 60’ more than 10 times without needing some kind of opiate to kill the pain, I think he’s more than proved MM’s point that there is another way. ;)

[Baseball gLove]

Pedro Martinez was 15-8 in 2005 with a 90% tear in his labrum. He also pitched in 2006 less successfully and injured his hip when he slipped in a corridor. This is when he decided to get his shoulder taken care of. He returned in late in 2007 to go 3-1. He struck out 8 and walked one in his last game.

[beemax]

fastball95,

I’m curious. When you were a professional pitcher, did you think you understood hitting enough to argue with hitters about what worked and what didn’t? ;)

Scorekeeper,

As a scorekeeper, do you think that you understand enough about pitching enough to argue anyone about it?

As for our previous dialouge, it is over. I am tired of going back and forth and getting nowhere.

It is funny however, that you make a remark like the one above. My father pitched in pro ball and my brother pitched at a DI. Baseball has been a part of my life since I came out of the womb. Does the fact that I am a hitter in pro ball make me less able to debate pitching? I face it every day I play, so I feel that I can have an educated discussion about the topic. On top of that I have had countless discussions with my brother and my late father about pitching to get their experienced viewpoint.

It is my belief that you made the remark above to get a reaction. I won't deny that I have done the same to you in this thread. I just don't see the use of the above quote to move this discussion forward.

Would you consider yourself to know more about pitching than me? If not, how can you make that remark?

[Go Cardinals]

Scorekeeper,

As a scorekeeper, do you think that you understand enough about pitching enough to argue anyone about it?

As for our previous dialouge, it is over. I am tired of going back and forth and getting nowhere.

It is funny however, that you make a remark like the one above. My father pitched in pro ball and my brother pitched at a DI. Baseball has been a part of my life since I came out of the womb. Does the fact that I am a hitter in pro ball make me less able to debate pitching? I face it every day I play, so I feel that I can have an educated discussion about the topic. On top of that I have had countless discussions with my brother and my late father about pitching to get their experienced viewpoint.

It is my belief that you made the remark above to get a reaction. I won't deny that I have done the same to you in this thread. I just don't see the use of the above quote to move this discussion forward.

Would you consider yourself to know more about pitching than me? If not, how can you make that remark?

I feel that hitters know pitchers better than pitchers know hitters. Why? because they have to react to them. Pitchers pitch to them. Its revolved around the pitcher. They have the first move and the control. Its like going first in chess, or you are constantly on defense, or the other person in tennis always serves first (hard to compare sports/ games... but I think you get the jist of it) ... therefore; you have to know the opponent better.

I hope that makes sense. Its hard to understand. You follow what I'm saying?

[Jake Patterson]

As a scorekeeper, do you think that you understand enough about pitching enough to argue anyone about it?

Bee, the difficulty with the above statement is it begs the question - what then are the minimum requirements to discuss pitching intelligently?

Many of the most knowledgeable I have met in the game never played beyond HS.

[Go Cardinals]

Bee, the difficulty with the above statement is it begs the question - what then are the minimum requirements to discuss pitching intelligently?

Many of the most knowledgeable I have met in the game never played beyond HS.

Beemax, I have a good question for you... what do you do to prepare for the pitcher (s)? Maybe that will help people understand how much hitters do or not know about pitching...

[Go Cardinals]

Bee, the difficulty with the above statement is it begs the question - what then are the minimum requirements to discuss pitching intelligently?

Many of the most knowledgeable I have met in the game never played beyond HS.

Jake, IMO, I feel that exposure is the answer. They have to have exposure to different amounts of the game to be considered good.

[Deemax]

Bee, the difficulty with the above statement is it begs the question - what then are the minimum requirements to discuss pitching intelligently?

Many of the most knowledgeable I have met in the game never played beyond HS.


I dont know what the minimum requirements are Jake. But, Im developing a better feel of who falls well short of the minimum....

Can this thread go back to discussing Doc's delivery?

[beemax]

Bee, the difficulty with the above statement is it begs the question - what then are the minimum requirements to discuss pitching intelligently?

Many of the most knowledgeable I have met in the game never played beyond HS.

I was simply responding to what I felt was an unnecessary comment Jake. The point of these forums is to debate and create a dialogue about baseball and anything related to it, right? I think anyone with a computer can and should come on and join in on the forums. I was just trying to make a point that my experience on the diamond outweighs his. There are no minimum requirements to discuss pitching intelligently, but be prepared to respond if you call a man's knowledge and experience into question.

I agree that there are many knowledgeable people about baseball who did not play above hs. There are many that study the game more than those who play it. But IMO, I know that I study the game a lot more than the vast majority of fans or players. I know that many players would rather not go on a baseball forum and talk about this stuff. I enjoy it, however. It is fun for me to talk the game during the offseason, no matter if it is pitching, defense, or hitting.

IMO scorekeeper has tried to take a low blow to make me look like less of an expert on pitching. He didn't say that in those terms, I just took it that way. I never said I was an expert on pitching or that I knew more about it than this guy or that guy. I am debating the MM delivery because I am not convinced that it is the best way to reach your potential. That is my opinion. Scorekeeper and everyone else is entitled to theirs, no matter their playing experience. All I'm saying is be willing to back yourself up when you call into question someone with more baseball experience.

[beemax]

Did you look at what I told you to look at? Or did you watch one of the evaluations of the 2007 pitchers? In the biomechanical flaw section of Doc's video, on minute marker 2:51, there is a pitcher throwing, but its from the front view. Look at minute marker 4:35 and then pause it at 4:43.

When you go to Doc's website, you need to scroll down to,

FREE Baseball Pitching Instructional Video!!!

Then once you are directed to the new screen, scroll down at click on,

04. Biomechanical Flaws

Then go to minute marker 4:35 and watch that. Then tell me what you see.

I follwed those exact directions and it took me to the video I watched previously. I don't know if it is my computer or what, but have you watched that clip recently? It ends with a side view of Doc's delievery in the 70s. Maybe the video was condensed, but I haven't been able to see the side clip that you speak of.

[fastbal95]

So looks like I missed a bunch while on my way to the airport. Gotta get out of this cold Chicago air and back to sunny Zephyrhills, lol.

Score,

When I pitched college ball, I was the teams DH. I was an all-american at DH my junior year and considered myself a good hitter. I think I could have played the outfield in pro ball. We will never know though, lol. When I entered pro ball I always found it interesting that every position player thought they could pitch and that every pitch thought they could hit. I would say that I met a few pitchers who def could hit in pro ball and a few position guys who def could pitch in pro ball. I never discussed hitting with any of the hitters though, I was too busy trying to be the best pitcher I could possibly be. I prolly could have discussed a little bit with them, but it wasnt my forte. I did think that I could help hitters with things I saw as a pitcher. Certain pitchers they had trouble handling and stuff like that. Never did though, too busy with myself, lol.

Baseball Love,

Doc set those boards up for the exact purpose that I am using them for. So I disagree, you can use them. And the video I want people to watch is not of Jeff Sparks. Jeff does not, I repeat, does not do everything right. No one does. Everyone has their own things they need to work on. The guy I would like you to see on Doc's video, I have written out exact locations of where to find it at, just happens to be the best at releasing the ball closest to home plate right now. I think the video is fairly clear at where he starts to drive the ball forward to where he releases it at. Its about 9 feet in front of the rubber. Believe it or not.

Jake,

I think it depends on what about pitching you want to talk about. If we are talking mechanics, then I would hope that a person involved in dialogue would understand basic science, physics, anatomy, etc... Not saying that anyone here doesnt understand these things, just to be clear. I do think though that some people understand more science than others and maybe it helps them to have a better insight?

Deemax,

I would love to continue to discuss Doc's motion. Do you have any other questions or comments to what I have said so far?

Brett,

I watched the video I want you to see a few times today. Im not sure why it wont work. The clip I want you to watch is right after Doc throwing in the 70's. All I can say is try it again I guess.

[Jake Patterson]

Bee, Dee, FB95,
My point with the comment is there are varying levels of experiences and expertise in everything we do. Having a technical background (education) in and of itself is often not enough. Discussing opposing or differing views - at least in my mind is what helps educate us all and I congratulate you all on the level of discussion we have seen on this thread.

After 40 years in the game the only thing I have learned is how little I know.

Carry on...

[beemax]

Joe,

I finally looked at the video on my home PC, not on my macbook and got to see the clip you mentioned. IMO, he does not release the ball any farther out in front of the rubber than these guys:

http://img31.photobucket.com/albums/v93/warrngtn/maddux.jpg

http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/j/msnbc/Components/Photos/060622/060622_roger_clemens_vmed_9p.widec.jpg

http://artfiles.art.com/images/-/John-Smoltz---2004-Pitching-Action-Photofile-Photograph-C10131662.jpeg

http://twinslove.mlblogs.com/photos/uncategorized/johan_santana_delivers.JPG

http://mlb.imageg.net/graphics/product_images/pMLB2-4022464dt.jpg

I'm certain I could get hundreds more of these pictures with different pitchers. A couple weren't quite at the moment of release, but I think you get the idea of where that would be. After looking at the video clip you told me to, I don't see any huge difference between Doc's guy and these guys. If anything, he releases further back than the majority of the "conventional" pitchers in the major leagues.

[scorekeeper]

As a scorekeeper, do you think that you understand enough about pitching enough to argue anyone about it?

Depends what the argument is. If someone wanted to tell me that it wasn’t important to throw 1st pitch strikes, I’d prolly argue. If someone tried to tell me that a LHP gets more movement than a RHP, I’d prolly argue. But, as much as I’ve watched baseball and as much as I know about pitching, I very seldom get into discussions that involve mechanics. Its not that I don’t understand mechanics, its that I feel there is really no way for me to make a good judgment about it from the teeny little sample I get.

When my son pitched, I could spot very minute things no one else could, but I watched him pitch for 10 years, and studied a lot of his video. But that’s just me. I don’t get into many discussions about base running or hitting either. I will certainly say something very general, but I wouldn’t argue rotation vs linear or anything similar for the world!

As for our previous dialouge, it is over. I am tired of going back and forth and getting nowhere.

You’ve got learn that when you don’t want to talk about something on one of these boards, you just stop. I didn’t expect you to say anything more about it, but then talk about it some more.

It is funny however, that you make a remark like the one above. My father pitched in pro ball and my brother pitched at a DI. Baseball has been a part of my life since I came out of the womb. Does the fact that I am a hitter in pro ball make me less able to debate pitching? I face it every day I play, so I feel that I can have an educated discussion about the topic. On top of that I have had countless discussions with my brother and my late father about pitching to get their experienced viewpoint.

WHOA there Big Fella? Why are you assuming I was talking about you? I was talking to fb95. I personally don’t care if you came down the chute swing a bat or never played the game, what I said was not addressed to or about you! I had talked to my friend about hitters trying to judge pitchers, and pitchers trying to judge hitters, and I thought I’d ask a pitcher.

It is my belief that you made the remark above to get a reaction. I won't deny that I have done the same to you in this thread. I just don't see the use of the above quote to move this discussion forward.

Then you are thinking badly because the remark had absolutely nothing to do with you. Believe it or not. I know you’ve baited me. and I understand why. You’re not used to someone challenging you. That’s ok. Since I take none of this stuff personally, it means nothing to me.

Would you consider yourself to know more about pitching than me? If not, how can you make that remark?

Once again. The remark had nothing to do with you.

I don’t know you or what you know about pitching, and I guarantee you don’t know me or what I know, so how would either one of us be able to answer that question?

Apparently you’ve taken this stuff personally, and that’s something you should never do. If I’ve said something insulting of offending to you, I apologize. What more can I say? Will you say the same thing or do you want to continue trying to show everyone that yours is bigger than mine?

[Deemax]

scorekeeper

Please post on marshalls pitching and send Beemax PM's. It ruins the thread. NO ONE cares about the previous post....NO ONE.

......now back to out regularly scheduled Marshall debate

[scorekeeper]

When I pitched college ball, I was the teams DH. I was an all-american at DH my junior year and considered myself a good hitter. I think I could have played the outfield in pro ball. We will never know though, lol. When I entered pro ball I always found it interesting that every position player thought they could pitch and that every pitch thought they could hit. I would say that I met a few pitchers who def could hit in pro ball and a few position guys who def could pitch in pro ball. I never discussed hitting with any of the hitters though, I was too busy trying to be the best pitcher I could possibly be. I prolly could have discussed a little bit with them, but it wasnt my forte. I did think that I could help hitters with things I saw as a pitcher. Certain pitchers they had trouble handling and stuff like that. Never did though, too busy with myself, lol.

The reason I asked is, I have one old friend who was an ML PC, and another who just recently retired after more than 13 years in the ML and a fairly illustrious career, and this discussion reminds me of the two of them often going back and forth. One says hitters have to the dumbest creatures on the face of the earth, and the other insists that pitchers are a bunch of clucks who couldn’t pitch unless someone gave them signals. ;)

But as you point out, I suspect that the true answer is somewhere in between, because everything depends on one’s forte. But one thing both of them pretty much agree on, is that anyone who believes they know everything about baseball, or even just believes they know more than the next guy, is just fooling themselves.

What you said about being too busy with your own stuff seems pretty sensible to me. Baseball excellence is all about improving the skills one uses to play at the level he’s at.

And it all comes down to philosophies. My friend was and is a firm believer that P’s need to run to strengthen their legs and core. Trust me, he was very successful, so I have to believe him. But, at the same time, there’s a guy name Leo Mazzone who has some renown too, but with a different philosophy.

I saw a press conference he did some time back where he was asked about his thoughts on pitchers doing a lot of running. (paraphrase)He said pitchers running was a great idea, but no one would ever see it from his pitchers, because if they had the time to spend running, they had the time to go into a pen and work on their mechanics.

In truth, I suspect both guys are much closer to each other than anyone would guess from just listening to what they say, but they do have different philosophies. Which just goes to show, there’s always more than one way to skin a cat. ;)

[fastbal95]

Brett,

Glad to see that it finally worked for you. We definately disagree on this though. You cannot use these pictures to compare to the video you saw. Its like trying to compare apples to oranges. Here is why.

1. They are pictures and the other is 500 frames per second high speed film. The Maddox photo shows his arm either still moving backwards from his reverse pitching forearm bounce, or just starting to move forward. The Smoltz picture is the same way. With the Santana picture, it is so fuzzy that the ball appears to be a long cylinder instead of a sphere. Sababthia has already released the ball and is starting his deceleration. The Clemens picture is the only one where we can actually see him starting his release.

2. The video of Doc's guy is taken from straight on side view. Doc sets up his camera so this will happen and there is little to no angular discrepencies (is that how you spell that? lol). The only picture that appears to be directly from the side is the Maddox photo.

Now, if we could actually compare these photos to the video, here is what I would say to that.

1. Maddox's pitching foot is still back on the rubber. He has strided so far that his center of mass has completely stopped moving in a straight line towards home plate. He cannot rotate his hips any further. Look how far back his pitching knee is in relation to his glove knee. Remember that Doc's guy had his pitching knee next to his glove knee which means his hips were rotated that much further. Since Maddox cannot rotate any further, the only thing he can do is to bend over at the waste. Since he can only bend forward at the waste, his glove foot is pushing towards home plate and not second base. His stride is definately not nine feet past the rubber. Can we agree on that? That would mean a stride of roughly nearly 150 percent of his height. Can anyone do that?

2. Clemen's picture is harder to decipher because of the angle the photo is taken at. I think we can agree though that his foot is still back by the rubber? Maybe not exactly on it like Maddox, but very close. Again because of the angle its hard to tell exactly how far back his pitching knee is compared to his glove knee, but I think everyone can see that they are not close, especially with his pitching foot still back by the rubber. Again hard to say directly, but it appears as if he has landed closed, which cuts short his rotation of his hips. I also doubt the Clemens strides nine feet in front of the rubber. I think that its safe to say that he is releasing the ball and his arm is to the side of his body and not really out in front, but again, because of the angle its hard to say for sure. Also, if you look at his pitching forearm and pitching upper arm you will see almost no seperation between the two. He has not raised his pitching forearm above the line that can be drawn between acromial lines. Although Clemens proclaims to pronate the releases of his pitches, I think this shows that he could have a more meaningful pronation. Because his arm is that far away from his body, when he "finishes" he will need to pull his pitching arm across his body, which means he decelerates with his teres minor and not teres major and latissimus dorsi. Also, to prevent his olecranon process from slamming into its fossa during the flyout, his brachialis muscle with contract. This muscle is antagonistic to the triceps brachii which means both cannot be contracted at the same time during pitching. Reciprical inhibition. He is not taking full advantage. The triceps muscle has the highest percentage of fast twitch muscle fibers in it out of all the 36 primary pitching muscles. This is really is a different subject than what we were talking about, but I just thought I would throw it in here.

3. Smotlz is pretty much the same as Maddox, but the angle makes it harder to be for certain.

4. Santana's foot is farther off the rubber than all of the other pitchers shown in picture, but you can see how far back his pitching knee is compared to his glove knee, like all the others. He has also strided closed with his glove foot which again, cuts off his rotation of his hips. It does appear though that he has some lean, which is actually a good thing, and will help him get a more vetical forearm at release. It is very clear to me, and I hope everyone else, that he has hardly rotated his hips at all.

5. Sabathia has already released the ball and his pitching foot is still on the ground. But because of the angle it is hard to say for sure, exaclty where his foot is at compared to the rubber. Appears to me to be pretty close though. He is pretty much the same as the others, he has landed closed with his glove foot which cuts off his hips rotation and his pitching knee is still farther back than glove knee. You can see because of his center of mass coming to a complete stop that all he can do is bend over to throw. You cannot rotate as fast while bent over than you could if you stood tall. Think about figure skaters and how fast they rotate and what they look like when they do, standing tall. Sabathia is a poster boy for pull pitchers. I hope that his arm can stand up to the repeated pulling but I doubt it will over the course of his career.

What we really need is side view high speed, 500 frames a second or faster, flim of these pitchers to see EXACTLY what they do at release. If anyone has any or knows of anyone who has any, I think it would be really cool to put it up side by side and analyze. I believe Doc has high speed film of Nolan Ryan, not sure if its side view, but I'll ask him tommorrow.

I look forward to your and anyones reply for that matter. I feel like I had more to say but lost my train of thought while sitting at the airport as fly flight continually is delayed over and over.

[beemax]

I don't know about you, but I cannot see the rubber in the Maddux pic. I believe his foot is off the rubber. I also believe that he has one of the best deliveries of all time.

I appreciate the detail you go into on Clemens. I have to be honest though, I can't understand the last half of the paragraph because every other word is out of my vocabulary!:)

I didn't say any of these guys stride nine feet, just as I know the pitcher in Doc's video doesn't stride that long. I just don't buy that wherever he releases, it is farther out than these guys. He strides shorter than allof them, IMO, so how could he release farther ahead of them? I understand that you believe differently, but I respectfully disagree.

I would love to see these guys at 500fps as well, and I hope you understand that I was showing these as a means of only showing their release in front of the rubber.

BTW, I LOVE the videos of Doc from the 70s. IMO he had a great delivery. I know that Doc has studied the biomechanics of pitching probably more than anyone else, but I believe that his 70s delivery was outstanding, and shows why he was a Cy Young winner.

[Chris O'Leary]

I don't know about you, but I cannot see the rubber in the Maddux pic. I believe his foot is off the rubber. I also believe that he has one of the best deliveries of all time.

Here are clips of Maddux and Clemens.

http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Pitching/Videos/Video_Pitching_GregMaddux_3B_001.gif

http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Pitching/Videos/Video_Pitching_RogerClemens_3B_001.gif

I have marked Maddux's dragline. Clemens' is a little shorter.

[beemax]

Good stuff Chris. I know its not 500fps, but I think it shows how far these guys release the ball past the rubber with the "conventional" delivery.

[fastbal95]

Brett,

Keep talking to me and you'll learn the vocab in no time, lol. I have to disagree about the videos Chris posted. I dont think the video does show how far in front of the rubber these guys release the ball. You cannot see exaclty where they release the ball. And we cannot really estimate the length of their stride as well as we can use the 6 inch green boards in Doc's video to count the distance. Not that the video is no good, just needs to be higher speed so we can see exactly when they release and where. What I can clearly see though in this video, and I hope everyone else can also, is where both of their pitching knees are in relation to their gloves knees. This tells us how far they are able to actually rotate their hips. While we cannot see the exact moment of release at this speed of video, we can def see that they have released the ball. When both pitchers stick their glove foot into the ground after their long stide, they stop their center of mass dead in its tracks. Then they do rotate their hips, BUT, because of their long stride they must stop too early, then the only thing they are able to do is bend forward at the waste. Their pitching knees do not come anywhere close to their glove knees. This shows that they do not rotate their hips as far as they could. Would I be right in saying that we all believe hip rotation is very important in pitching?

With regard to Maddox and the rubber, maybe it would have been better stated that his foot is still on the ground, not necessarily touching the rubber. And can you tell me why you think he has one of the best deliveries of all time? Is it because of the amount of success he has had?

So Im glad that we all know these guys dont stride nine feet. We never claimed that we do though either. We can release the ball that far in front of the rubber, because we rotate off of our glove foot out in front of our body, and not off of our pitching foot, back by the rubber. Does that make sense to you? I hope so because that is what the video on Doc's website shows. That is how we are able to release farther in front. If you still do not understand, maybe you should just try an experiment with yourself. Or if we do get to meet up then I will show you in person what I am talking about, I think that might help explain things better.

I dont want you to get the wrong impression. I completely believe that traditional pitchers release the ball in front of the rubber. To think otherwise would just be silly. What I am saying, is that we are able to release farther in front than traditional pitchers for the reasons I have stated above.

If Doc's delivery was good enough for him to not injure his arm, ever, and win the first Cy Young award EVER for a reliever, than ya I would say its not too shabby. He would say it was terrible though. He has a point though, with the injuries to the ankle, knee, and hip that can result from the traditional body action.

Chris,

You mentioned something about a drag line. I dont want to assume here, but do you advocate dragging of the back foot like that? And if so, can you tell me why? Thanks.

[XV84]

High-speed video of the traditional pitching motion: http://youtube.com/watch?v=5OWd8VHIVKQ

Although, the camera is too close to really tell if the release is in front or behind the front foot.

Here are better shots of Clemens. In the second pic below I am assuming that the release is where the blur starts.

http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa173/xvue84/pitching/clemensoverheadrelease2.jpg
http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa173/xvue84/pitching/clemensoverheadreleaseblur.jpg
http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa173/xvue84/pitching/clemensrelease.jpg

Some shots of Webb and Mussina. Notice that they both have short stride, high release point, and straight front leg.
http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa173/xvue84/pitching/webbrelease1.jpg
http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa173/xvue84/pitching/mussinareleasetop2.jpg
http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa173/xvue84/pitching/mussinarelase1.jpg
http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa173/xvue84/pitching/mussinarelase2.jpg

[fastbal95]

XV84,

Good stuff here. I watched the video of the ASMI guy. Because we also dont have front view its hard to tell exactly how far laterally his arm is away from his body. Watching between seconds 43 and 44, it looks as if he releases the ball at just about where his glove foot is in contact with the ground, or very slightly in front of it. If we knew exactly how far his arm was laterally away from his body, then we would know exactly how far his arm is in front of his body. To me, it appears that he releases the ball on the same plane as the front of his body, during seconde 44. I think this video is also beneficial in the fact that it shows how when he begins his acceleration of the arm, the ball actually moves backwards before it goes forwards. This is due to the later pitching forearm turnover and reverse pitching forearm bounce. We can also see that at his leg lift, between seconds 27 and 28, he almost brings his center of mass to a complete stop, and then needs to start it forward again when he drops his leg. Then as his body moves forward, his arm is still in the process of moving backward. If one was trying to apply as much force torwards home plate, I would think that they would want everything moving forward at the same time. Lastly between seconds 43 and 44 again, we can see that his long stride has caused his center of mass to come to a complete stop and that he stops rotating his hips at this point. We can notice how far his pitching knee is behind his glove knee. From the time his glove hip points directly at home plate till when he stops rotating his hips, he is not even able to get 90 degrees of rotation. What I mean when I say this is that his glove hip is not pointing perpendicular to home plate. It stops short because his plant of his glove foot prevents it from continuing to rotate.

As for the pictures, I think they are great. I def think the overhead view is very useful. From looking at these pic, we can see that all 3 pitchers have there pitching foot within inches of the rubber at their respective releases.

1. Clemens' pitching arm def has more lateral movement than Mussina, but its hard to tell about Webb from the angle. This movement throws his arm away from his body and force is wasted as it it applied in the direction of a tangent line to the arc of his arm and not straight towards home plate. It does appear that Clemens release is right at his foot plant or very very slightly, meaning inches, in front of it. We can see that because he bends over at the waist, his is unable to rotate his hips any further than what they already are. His pitching knee is well behind his glove knee also. What Clemens does well though is pronate the releases of all his pitches. At least he has that going for him. But who knows what is what with him these days considering the steroid allegations.

2. It does look like Webb strides shorter and stands taller than Clemens. His pitching foot is still on the ground though, and is does look like his foot is within inches of the rubber. Not the best angle to be exact though. What Webb also needs to fix is the lack (none) of seperation between his pitching forearm and pitching upper arm. He does not pronate during release, rather his arm locks and he will continually slam his olecranon process into its fossa. Even if he pronates after release, its already too late. He has also locked out his arm. His brachialis muscle will also continually contract to try and prevent the slamming and pull on his coronoid process causing it to enlarge, thereby reducing his flexion range of motion. I think its save to say that Webb def has fly out of his arm away from his body, decreasing the force of his pitches straight towards home plate.

3. Mussina appears to look the best, out of the three, to me. While his foot is still within inches of the rubber, he brings it off the ground. He still cannot forwardly rotate as much, but it appears that he is, maybe working towards it. Notice how he has much less lateral movement than the other two. He is able to do this because he leans to his glove side, meaning he tries to get his forearm as vertical as possible, a good thing. Cannot say if he pronates through release though. It would be interesting to see if he does. I think he's a great pitcher. I always enjoy watching him pitch.

[beemax]

Joe, in response to your post about the Clemens and Maddux videos:

I would agree that hip rotation is very important in pitching, yes. I just don't see how Doc's delivery creates more hip rotation than the conventional pitcher. You say that Roger Clemens and Greg Maddux don't rotate their hips as far as they could-does that mean that they woould have put up even better numbers than they have? In the traditional delivery, when the pitcher leads with his hips closed to the plate, don't they have to rotate more than Doc's delivery, where they lead with their hips open to the plate?

As for Maddux, I believe that his delivery is one of the greatest of all time because he can repeat it better than anyone I've ever seen. I think his numbers speak to a lot of the reason why his delivery is something I feel all pitchers should look at and try to emulate. If you take away 1994 and 1995, where each season was shortened by the strike, he has started at least 33 games since his first full season in the big leagues.

I'm not saying that I can break down Maddux's delivery as good as you or MM can as far as biomechanics go. All I'm saying is can't we learn something good from Maddux's mechanics? How he keeps his head on the target so well, how far out he can stride even though he is only 6' tall, and how he leads with his hips closed, etc.

How you explain your rotation does make sense to me. I just don't see yo guys creating more power from roatation that the "traditional delivery."

I see that you think you (meaning Doc's guys) release the ball farther out in front than the traditional delivery. I don't see concrete evidence of that. And counting boards 5 or 10 feet behind where you are does not count as scientific to me.

I think that many pitchers can learn a lot of great things from Doc's 70s delivery that IMO they should emulate. I know that Doc doesn't, but I have to disagree.

[beemax]

Can you explain to us who have trouble understanding the medical lingo in layman's terms. I just had to look up, brachialis, conronid process, etc. and I couldn't find anything for olecranon process. What does all of this mean to the non-biomechanist?

As for Brandon Webb, do you think if he fixes the lack of separation between his pitching forearm and pitching upper arm, pronates during release, does not continually slam his olecranon process into his fossa, ceases to continually contract his brachialis muscle so it doesn't have to contract in order to try and prevent the slamming and pull on his caronoid process and increases flexion and range of motion, that he would still have the nastiest sinker in the big leagues? And be a Cy Young winner?

Another question...Does Doc think every pitcher he teaches should throw the same pitches?

[fastbal95]

Brett,

I will try to explain what I mean when I say that Doc's motion creates more hip rotation. If I don't do a good job, or you just don't follow, then the only other way I know how to show you is to show you in person.

When traditional pitchers either start from the stretch (set position) or when they have turned their body and are lifting their leg, they have their glove hip pointing directly towards home plate, straight forward. Make sense so far? When they stride and land with their foot and hips "closed" They can only rotate as far as their leg will allow. I know you have seen pics, and you can look at the ones posted above, and even the Maddox and Clemens video that Chris posted. Lets say that when the glove hip is pointing towards home plate, that is 0 degrees. At the same time then, the pitching hip would be pointing directly towards second base, or in the opposite direction. Using the still photos and video mentioned above, we can see that when the pitchers have released the ball, their glove hip at the [B]very greatest[B] is pointing perpendicular to home plate. This would be the very best for traditional pitchers, and in fact most guys cant even get perpendicualr. If they were pointing perpendicular, then that would mean a rotation of 90 degrees. 180 degrees of rotation would mean that their pitching hip now pointed at home plate and that their glove hip now pointed at second base. Still with me on this? Just in case anyone wants to talk about farther active reverse rotation of the hips, ie. turning your back to home plate, it DOES NOT count. The only thing that does is generate a greater force in a tangent line, not applied directly to home plate in a straight line. It causes more centripital force, not a good thing.

Now, when using Doc's motion. Pitchers start with their hips perpendicular to home plate, or parallel to the rubber. When we pendulem swing our arms up to driveline height and step forward with our glove leg, we passively reverse rotate our hips so that our glove hip points towards straight towards home plate, 0 degrees. We do not stride but step, that allows us to continue moving our center or mass in a straight line with stopping it, like with the traditional delivery. Then we rotate not over our pitching foot, like traditional pitchers, but over our glove foot. By rotating over our glove foot, we are able to get our pitching knee to at least equal to our glove knee. This also means that we are able to rotate our hips past being perpendiclar to home plate. Perpendicular to home plate would be 90 degrees. What we are discovering is that with all the pitching flaws that we learned earlier in life, it is extremely difficult to get our hips any farther that 135 degrees of rotation. How do I know that we can achieve 135 degrees of hip rotation? Well we rotate our hips and shoulders together, unlike traditional pitchers who do the hips then the shoulders. What we want to do is point our pitching elbow directly towards home plate, so our drive is exactly straight forward. This is also very difficult, but we are getting our elbow to pointing 45 degrees toward home plate, or halfway in between 0 degrees, perpendicular to home plate, and 90 degrees, pointing straight towards home plate. I hope you are able to still follow me here. Because we rotate our shoulders and hips at the same time, or as one, if we are able to get our elbow pointing to 45 degrees towards home plate, then we are also able to do the same with our pitching hip, which would mean that our glove hip would be pointing in the opposite direction, somewhere between home and third base, for a lefty of course. Add the 45 degrees halfway between perpendicular to home plate and straight on, to 90 degrees, pitching hip pointing towards second base then rotated to be perpendicular to home plate, and you have 135 degrees of hip rotation, more than the traditional delivery is able to do. I hope you were able to follow all of that.

People will then say, "well not all of you do this", or something to that effect. Because some, all, or whoever cannot yet do this does not mean that Doc's motion doesnt work. We are all working towards perfection, but Im sure none of us will ever attain it. Our brains are too engrained with the traditional flaws, no matter how hard we work at it. Now a child who has not yet learned these "flaw" maybe actually be able to do Doc's motion perfectly. Maybe this analogy does not exactly fit, but I think you'lll get the idea. Just because everyone cannot get a 100 percent on a math test, does that mean that math is incorrect or does not work?

I also think Maddox is one of the greatest all time, I loved watching him pitch growing up, and even when he came back to Chicago. But, I believe he was great because of the numbers he put up, not because he could repeat his delievery over and over. I dont think anyone can prove a direct correlation between repeating mechanics to success, or good numbers in other words. Just like I cant say that if Clemens or Maddox pitched Doc's way that they would have put up even better numbers. Too many things are involved when talking about "numbers". Good mechanics are not a direct correlation to good numbers. I would say though that they would have had better quality "stuff" and better velocity. And its just my opinion, but ya, I think that they would have put up better numbers (just my opinion though).

I do see good things in some of what Maddox does, but I also see a lot of flaws that have lessened his genetic potential. So in a way, yes, I do think we can learn things from watching Maddox, just different what your train of thought.

The abiltiy to generate power while rotating is based on genetics, so not everyone can generate the same amount of power even with same amount of rotation. With that being said, the more degrees of rotation leads to more power. So if we can rotate farther, we can generate more power, only if you take two people with equal genetics. That is why even someone doing Doc's motion perfect still may not be able to throw as hard as someone using traditional mechanics. Its based on genetics. Now with that being said, I believe that Doc's motion allows us to be able to reach whatever ceiling we have genetically with regards to pitching, better than the traditional motion.

Well we disagree about the releasing issue I guess. Im sorry you dont see the video with the boards as good enough for you. Doc is only one man. He does not have unlimited resources. If we were able to do a study with better resources than I think you would be able to see what I see. I recently emailed ASMI to see what they thought about evaluating some of our guys and to "break" everything down. Havent heard back yet though.

We also believe that we can learn many things from Doc's delivery. Doc does also. You and I just disagree on what we can learn. You think people could learn things to do. We believe we learn more about what not to do from Doc's 70's motion.

[scorekeeper]

Can you explain to us who have trouble understanding the medical lingo in layman's terms. I just had to look up, brachialis, conronid process, etc. and I couldn't find anything for olecranon process. What does all of this mean to the non-biomechanist?

I don’t mean to come off as any kind of medical expert or to be putting words into someone's mouth, but having been through this stuff to some degree, I’m guessing that rather than olecranon process, he meant to say acromion process.

[Chris O'Leary]

You mentioned something about a drag line. I dont want to assume here, but do you advocate dragging of the back foot like that? And if so, can you tell me why? Thanks.

I don't care if the PAS foot drags or is up the air. I just want the PAS foot and knee to come well off the rubber so that the hips can keep turning.

As an aside, I know that some people think that the PAS foot needs to stay on the rubber during the throw or else it's a balk.

That is both wrong and bad.

[fastbal95]

Brett,

I will explain in laymans terms. The brachialis muscle is a muscle in the upper arm. It is a flexor of the forearm, meaning it flexes the elbow. Coronoid process is where the brachialis attaches in the elbow. Also, if it is enlarged, then that DEcreases flexion of the elbow, not increases. The olecranon process is the tip of the unla bone. When the elblow is extended, the olecranon process inserts into the olecranon fossa, or hole. How far the olecranon process can go into its fossa determines how far you can extend the elbow. Repeated slamming of the olecranon process into the fossa causes the olecranon process to not be able to go as deep into its fossa as before, thereby reducing extension of the elbow. The slamming also causes bone spurs, chips, loose bodies, etc... You can actually snap off the tip of the olecranon process, it is very painful from what I understand. So what this stuff would mean to someone who is not a biomechanist, lol, is that when you slam your bones together, it hurts, its bad. You loose the ability your extend and flex your elbow as great as before, which decreases velocity. You also can tear the brachialis muscle from its overuse. One of the guys who trained here acutally actually had seven different tears in his brachialis muscle from pitching in high school. I can remember having pain in the spot of the brachialis and wondering what the hell it was. It was only until I learned from Doc that I actually realized what the pain was from. You can also create loose bodies, or bone spurs and chips, which require surgery to take out, which will keep you on the DL, meaning you dont get to pitch. I hope this helps explain better.

As for Webb, just because you think he has the nastiest sinker in all of MLB doesnt make it necessarily true. BUT ,with that being said though I agree with you, he does have a great sinker!! It is nasty. If he fixed what I mentioned then he would not loose extension of flexion range of motion in his elbow, those that do loose this cannot throw as hard as they once did. Also I think the quality of his pitches would greatly increase. He would have more of a vertical forearm upon release which would also increase the constistency of his pitches. I think that he could improve the quality of his sinker and def win another Cy Young, if he fixed these things. Im not saying he cant win another one is he doesnt though, dont get me wrong, Im sure he could, he already has once.

The answer to your question is yes. Doc teaches us the same pitches. But just like everything else in life, not everyone is created equal. Some throw the pitches better than others and vise versa. There are basically 4 types of pitches: fastballs, breaking balls, and reverse breaking balls are the 3 types we learn. The fourth type is no spin, or a knuckle ball. We throw two types of fastballs, maxline and torque. We also throw 2 seam and 4 seam though. We throw a minus ten pitch, sinker, which is a maxline pitch. We also throw a minus ten pitch, slider, with is a torque pitch. The sinker and screwball are reverse breaking balls, while the curve and slider are breaking balls. Our sinker would be mostly alike a split finger fastball, except instead of putting the ball between our index and middle finger, we put it between our middle and ring finger. You can squeeze something harder in between those two fingers than the index and middle finger because of the atanomy of the hand. I wont got into specifics here, just trust me. The harder you can squeeze, the more force and spin you can apply. Our sinker is a wonderful pitch. I love throwing it and watching it dart out of the strike zone, or into it for that matter. I hope this helps. Any more questions, just fire away