The Triangle vs. The Box

[Chris O'Leary]

I've never been completely comfortable with concept of "The Box" because I've never been able to see it consistently. However, what I do think I see consistently in high-level swings is something I call "The Triangle".



The Triangle is a right triangle that is formed by linking together the hitter's hands and shoulders. I have laid The Triangle over the Pete Rose clip above. Notice how as his shoulders turn he maintains the triangle (both leg lengths and angles) until a couple of frames before the point of contact. This means that his hands are turning with his shoulders rather than dragging behind them.

In terms of teaching this, I can see why many people at the ML level focus on the hands. It may be an easier way of maintaining The Triangle.

If you focus too much on the shoulders or back elbow, the hands can get lost in the shuffle and you can end up with a long, draggy swing. However, if you focus on the hands, they will tend to maintain their proper position relative to the back shoulder and elbow.

P.S. Sorry for the cross-post, but I don't want this to get lost in the thread or to hijack the thread with a conversation about this concept.

[Eagle]

I've never been completely comfortable with concept of "The Box" because I've never been able to see it consistently. However, what I do think I see consistently in high-level swings is something I call "The Triangle".

In terms of teaching this, I can see why many people at the ML level focus on the hands. It may be an easier way of maintaining The Triangle.

If you focus too much on the shoulders or back elbow, the hands can get lost in the shuffle and you can end up with a long, draggy swing. However, if you focus on the hands, they will tend to maintain their proper position relative to the back shoulder and elbow.




Sounds alot like something another poster from St. Louis said last year about this time. Must be something in the water.....

[JayC]

Chris. When you see the Arod clip on 60 minutes of him hitting in his cage at home . He talks about keeping hands inside and short to the ball just like yeager and slot pretty much . Please explain how AROD one of the best if not the best in the game is wrong from your opinion .

[FiveFrameSwing]

> The Triangle vs. The Box

vs. Lead-arm extension ... and maintaining lead-arm extension throughout the swing.

[Chris O'Leary]

This time I can't get the clip to play. Just the stupid commercials.

Based on what I recall...


Chris. When you see the Arod clip on 60 minutes of him hitting in his cage at home . He talks about keeping hands inside and short to the ball just like yeager and slot pretty much .

I don't disagree with this. Instead, I agree with it totally.

How he says you have to stay compact.



Please explain how AROD one of the best if not the best in the game is wrong from your opinion .

He's wrong when he illustrates hitting down on the ball. That's not his real hand path. He doesn't swing down on the ball.

He doesn't keep the head of the bat well above his hands (or even level to the ground) as he demonstrates. Instead, he tilts over the plate.

He also doesn't like the ball that high. He's more of a low ball hitter.

In the end, you have to listen to what the pros DO, not what they SAY.

P.S. I got it to play in IE but not Mozilla.

[FiveFrameSwing]

Chris. When you see the Arod clip on 60 minutes of him hitting in his cage at home . He talks about keeping hands inside and short to the ball just like yeager and slot pretty much . Please explain how AROD one of the best if not the best in the game is wrong from your opinion .


If you slow Rose's swing down even more you'll see that he is hitting the "inside" of the ball (see frame #65) and that the bat is "square" as the ball exits the bat (frame #66).

[Chris O'Leary]

Sounds alot like something another poster from St. Louis said last year about this time. Must be something in the water.....

I have no idea what you are talking about.

[Encinitas]

Chris Teacherman has been talking about a Triangle for over a year now. Have you analyzed his take? There are some recent posts within the last day over at HSBBW (Teacherman - Loose Cannon) regarding separation, being key, but one of the threads discusses a triangle instead of a box.

[FiveFrameSwing]

I've never been completely comfortable with concept of "The Box" because I've never been able to see it consistently. However, what I do think I see consistently in high-level swings is something I call "The Triangle".


To me the concept of "The Box" tends to promote the concept of having a 90-degree bend in the lead-arm. As Yeager demonstrates, that's not what is going on.

[Drill]

To me the concept of "The Box" tends to promote the concept of having a 90-degree bend in the lead-arm. As Yeager demonstrates, that's not what is going on.




Yeager talks that if a batter is late/jammed himself he forms a box. But if you have good timing and keep the rear elbow in you can go into full extension with the front arm and hit the ball.

But lets face it it helps to know all ways of powering the ball. From box position to full front arm extension it looks to me that if the rear elbow is in close to your side you are in a power position.

Of course there are other moves in the swing you have to emulate.


Please note I leave a lot of other moves out what Dr Yeager teaches, but in most swings it looks to me the rear elbow has to stay in at the side to achieve power. Box or no box. IMHO


drill

[4for4]

To me the concept of "The Box" tends to promote the concept of having a 90-degree bend in the lead-arm. As Yeager demonstrates, that's not what is going on.

First, regarding the box, Steve Englishbey described it as follows:


Originally Posted by Steve Englishbey, EnglishbeyHitting.com (http://www.englishbeyhitting.com/forums/index.php?topic=679.msg7839#msg7839)

The "box" should NOT be understood as a LITERAL BOX [4 sides evenly measured----you do not need a ruler to try and measure the EXACTNESS here -----the bones muscles and connective tissue cannot create perfected geometric 2 dimensional objects ! And thankfully we don't have to.]

The "box" represents a rough estimate or box-LIKE configuration of the arm/bat and that configuration relative to the body .Thus it is an analogy, a model, a visual aid [in some cases] of the upper body/bat.

And BoardMember recently commented that:



Boxes come is all shapes and sizes. Squares don't.


And regarding Yeager as far as what's not going on, consider the following:



I would say Englishbey's description and Boardmember's simple but accurate statement is the way to look at this. Meaning that Renteria's "box" is likely to have a bit different configuration on a pitch low and away.

[JK-CA]

I think the term box is a very good visual teaching tool. I would agree with the description posted by Steve Englishbey on his web site. It can be beneficial for young hitters because it is such a simple concept.

[Jake Patterson]

Is this not a box??

[Jake Patterson]

Is this not a box??


This might be more accurate

[Drill]

First, regarding the box, Steve Englishbey described it as follows:



And BoardMember recently commented that:



And regarding Yeager as far as what's not going on, consider the following:



I would say Englishbey's description and Boardmember's simple but accurate statement is the way to look at this. Meaning that Renteria's "box" is likely to have a different orientation on a pitch low and away.


I am not about to put pictures up here showing batter with full extension of front arm, just look they are everywhere. All I am trying to say that both ways work. I feel knowing what works for who and on pitch location is a combination of all swing methods. The best I believe know and can do them all.... Its there job after all and that is the reason they make the big bucks.

I am not here to debate the swing gurus, I am here to point out that the pro's do have differant swings at differant times. Wouldn't you learn all the swing methods if you were making that kind of money and settle on what works for you and when, I know I would. But I am not on there level, all I want to do is help my son out and understand the swing and what is being taught to him by differant swing coach's. I think a person can learn a lot if they watch and don't settle on one type of swing and learn the basics of where the power comes from in all the styles.

Now the way I understand it we have a MLB hybrid swing out here which is a combination of linear and rotational.


Just as we have differant styles of pitching we have differant ways to hit the ball.

respectfully yours,


drill

I am starting to develop a small library of DVD's from most of the instructor that post here just to take a honest look at why they think there swing is the way to go. It's obvious that some of the names that post here are successful. Why not take a look at what makes there way successful.

[Ursa Major]

Sometimes people get so caught up in trying to play semantic gotcha that they get diverted from what it is that we're trying to do here: teach young hitters to swing better. Maybe this will help:

The issue isn't so much what the box is or looks like -- the critical mechanic is maintaining the box, however you choose to set it up. In other words, during the stride the bottom arm may be extended back toward the catcher ("walking away from your hands"), but, as the rotation starts, whatever elbow angle remains must be maintained (and, if possible in that circumstance made more acute) so as to increase the degree of angular momentum that the hands create in an ever-tightening arc. If the elbow in allowed to loosen up even more, you get slop in your swing and little angular momentum. That's reason No. 1 for maintaining the box.

The second issue is to take advantage of all those laws of physics -- particularly the angular momentum generated by this ever tightening arc. But, if the box becomes three dimensional -- i.e., if the bat is not both (a) parallel with the upper lead arm and (b) in the same plane as the swing path led by the front shoulder and lead arm elbow -- you're losing power and likely chopping down on the ball.

[Drill]

Is he maintaining the box, I asked the question about youth and arm bar a few months ago and said Bonds was arm baring because he was not maintaining the box. Of course look at where the rear elbow is. He is not arm baring

But as long as you keep your rear elbow in here is another way to hit. (front arm going to full extension at contact.)


teach youth what comes natural to them and don't get stuck on just one way to swing (or mind set of the swing)



respectfully yours,

drill

[FiveFrameSwing]

There are many cases of lead-arm extension ...

[FiveFrameSwing]

Is he maintaining the box, I asked the question about youth and arm bar a few months ago and said Bonds was arm baring because he was not maintaining the box. Of course look at where the rear elbow is. He is not arm baring

But as long as you keep your rear elbow in here is another way to hit. (front arm going to full extension at contact.)


teach youth what comes natural to them and don't get stuck on just one way to swing (or mind set of the swing)



respectfully yours,

drill



Bonds is a good example of obtaining lead-arm extension and maintaining and/or increasing extension through contact.

[Jake Patterson]

There are many cases of lead-arm extension ...
But would you teach to a youngster???

[FiveFrameSwing]

Is this not a box??



Look past the box drawn in yellow. Is the lead-arm extended?

[FiveFrameSwing]

The issue isn't so much what the box is or looks like -- the critical mechanic is maintaining the box, however you choose to set it up. In other words, during the stride the bottom arm may be extended back toward the catcher ("walking away from your hands"), but, as the rotation starts, whatever elbow angle remains must be maintained (and, if possible in that circumstance made more acute) so as to increase the degree of angular momentum that the hands create in an ever-tightening arc. If the elbow in allowed to loosen up even more, you get slop in your swing and little angular momentum. That's reason No. 1 for maintaining the box.


Good post.

I agree that the elbow angle should be maintained or increased. I wouldn't refer to this as mainataining the box through as that gives the impression of an 'L' shape. I believe Yeager's description is much more accuracte.

The best hitters maintain this lead arm extended, wrist cocked position, longer than most. And they normally get better extension than others. The lead arm stays extended all the way through contact. So you gain extension during the stride and you want to maintain that extension all the way through contact.

[FiveFrameSwing]

But would you teach to a youngster???


Jake, you and I disagree on this. We've been through this many times. As you know, I do not believe in intentionally teaching a youngster a short cut. I believe in teaching them what the best hitters do and giving them a chance to pick that up. Why don't we leave that for another thread? We could title it "should kids be taught short cuts".

[FiveFrameSwing]

I've never been completely comfortable with concept of "The Box" because I've never been able to see it consistently. However, what I do think I see consistently in high-level swings is something I call "The Triangle".



The Triangle is a right triangle that is formed by linking together the hitter's hands and shoulders. I have laid The Triangle over the Pete Rose clip above. Notice how as his shoulders turn he maintains the triangle (both leg lengths and angles) until a couple of frames before the point of contact. This means that his hands are turning with his shoulders rather than dragging behind them.

In terms of teaching this, I can see why many people at the ML level focus on the hands. It may be an easier way of maintaining The Triangle.

If you focus too much on the shoulders or back elbow, the hands can get lost in the shuffle and you can end up with a long, draggy swing. However, if you focus on the hands, they will tend to maintain their proper position relative to the back shoulder and elbow.

P.S. Sorry for the cross-post, but I don't want this to get lost in the thread or to hijack the thread with a conversation about this concept.


I think the “maintaining the triangle” concept is a step above the “maintaining the box” concept. At least the “maintaining the triangle” concept allows for lead-arm extension as shown in the above video of Pete Rose.

However, both cues take away from the focus of the lead-arm as the main hitting lever. The bat should be thought of as an extension of the lead arm.

I agree with the use of the word “maintaining” in the phases “maintaining the triangle” and “maintaining the box” … however what is important is maintaining the angle in the lead arm and I believe this should be more of the focus in this concept.

The best hitters gain lead arm extension during their positive shift forward (positive move) and they normally get better extension than others. The lead arm stays extended all the way through contact. You gain extension during the stride and you want to maintain that extension all the way through contact.

I believe a better concept would be "maintaining lead-arm extension".

[BoardMember]

Drill, you make the call:




Is he maintaining the box, I asked the question about youth and arm bar a few months ago and said Bonds was arm baring because he was not maintaining the box. Of course look at where the rear elbow is. He is not arm baring

But as long as you keep your rear elbow in here is another way to hit. (front arm going to full extension at contact.)


teach youth what comes natural to them and don't get stuck on just one way to swing (or mind set of the swing)



respectfully yours,

drill

[BoardMember]

Here's what I see, even with lead arm extension:



5, I think we have to VERY CAREFUL defining the difference between "lead arm extension" and "lead arm extended".

I believe lead arm extension is a position of "non-lockout" to allow for adjustment.

If you maintain a "non-lockout" position, the box becomes more apparant then the triangle.

[Erik]

Here's what I see, even with lead arm extension:





I see the box turning into a home plate.




EL,

[4for4]

Chris -- I'm not going to get into what Yeager says or means because he's not here to discuss the video, but rather focus in on your apparent misunderstanding and the rigidity of your approach or so it seems to me.

Here is Ortiz on an inside pitch:



Here is Ortiz on an outside pitch:



No need for me to be verbose on this point because BoardMember tackled this quit well. But when you say this:



The best hitters gain lead arm extension during their positive shift forward (positive move) and they normally get better extension than others. The lead arm stays extended all the way through contact. You gain extension during the stride and you want to maintain that extension all the way through contact.

It really suggests you need to revisit Hansen's rule about looking at what all the best hitters are doing and get a better understanding of the why, IMO. I think that player on eteamz would benefit greatly from this strategy, as she looked to be struggling quit a bit with what you were teaching her. If you're not doing this then you're short cutting the process.


I think the “maintaining the triangle” concept is a step above the “maintaining the box” concept. At least the “maintaining the triangle” concept allows for lead-arm extension as shown in the above video of Pete Rose.

However, both cues take away from the focus of the lead-arm as the main hitting lever. The bat should be thought of as an extension of the lead arm.

I agree with the use of the word “maintaining” in the phases “maintaining the triangle” and “maintaining the box” … however what is important is maintaining the angle in the lead arm and I believe this should be more of the focus in this concept.

The best hitters gain lead arm extension during their positive shift forward (positive move) and they normally get better extension than others. The lead arm stays extended all the way through contact. You gain extension during the stride and you want to maintain that extension all the way through contact.

I believe a better concept would be "maintaining lead-arm extension".

[4for4]

Sometimes people get so caught up in trying to play semantic gotcha that they get diverted from what it is that we're trying to do here: teach young hitters to swing better. Maybe this will help:

The issue isn't so much what the box is or looks like -- the critical mechanic is maintaining the box, however you choose to set it up. In other words, during the stride the bottom arm may be extended back toward the catcher ("walking away from your hands"), but, as the rotation starts, whatever elbow angle remains must be maintained (and, if possible in that circumstance made more acute) so as to increase the degree of angular momentum that the hands create in an ever-tightening arc. If the elbow in allowed to loosen up even more, you get slop in your swing and little angular momentum. That's reason No. 1 for maintaining the box.

The second issue is to take advantage of all those laws of physics -- particularly the angular momentum generated by this ever tightening arc. But, if the box becomes three dimensional -- i.e., if the bat is not both (a) parallel with the upper lead arm and (b) in the same plane as the swing path led by the front shoulder and lead arm elbow -- you're losing power and likely chopping down on the ball.

Very good post! Thx.

[Drill]

Drill, you make the call:





I believe the good/ great hitters have many differant styles. Just look at

Ichiro Suzuki Hitting Stats

Yr Team G AB R H 2B 3B HR GS RBI BB IBB SO SH SF HBP GIDP AVG OBP SLG

2007 Mariners 161 678 111 238 22 7 6 0 68 49 13 77 4 2 3 7 .351 .396 .431


Saw Ichiro Suzuki play this past year, with my son sitting next to me i whispered to him if i see you standing up at bat like that and swinging I will disown you. Well after watch him going 3-4 that night with a home run and a double, and a strike out at the plate where he battled the pitcher to about 11 pitches. I told him he could swing like Ichiro Suzuki any time he wanted to. I realized that night watching a pro game that we can argue/discuss the swing all we want to. But it comes down to what each individual does best. Ichiro Suzuki has some kind of double pendulum swing I never heard of which was discussed on this board when I brought his swing style up. Ichiro Suzuki does a lot of things wrong in his swing, before he hits the ball but at the point of contact he brings it all together. I think his life time average is .333. Why are we not discussing Ichiro Suzuki swing and style. My guess would be Ichiro Suzuki has perfect timing with all the differant moves in his swing and is to hard to emulate to do in his swing style. He stands at the plate like a little girl (no offense) butt sticking out with his feet about 12 inches apart and when he strides forward he moves his head about a foot until he stops everything and turns on the ball and smashes it.

So why are we not teaching the way Ichiro Suzuki does it is because we can never emulate his style of swing. Why not let us who teach the swing teach the person what comes natural to his/hers own individual style and try to combine swing techniques that work best the individual

So for teaching youth and what should we teach youth, I go back and say what comes the most naturally to them. We as parents teacher pro swing trainers better know as much about the swing as possible.

I have reached the age of 57 and still remember the saying "You can lead an old horse to water but you can't make him drink" I refuse to stop learning. Bring on the DVD's so I can learn more.


As far as me making the call, I think he is good enough to keep the box and go to full extension, with his swings.


respectfully yours,

drill

[Jake Patterson]

So for teaching youth and what should we teach youth, I go back and say what comes the most naturally to them. We as parents teacher pro swing trainers better know as much about the swing as possible.

Drill, respectfully disagree.... I agree that should not teach children how to swing like adults, never mind trying to swing like the top .10 percent of the game, but what comes natural to a child (with limited motor skills) and what they are capable of learning are two different things. Riding a bike would be a good example. The performance gap between their capabilities and their basic instincts is what we need to close. I say teach them what they need to learn to make them successful at the next level.

[Drill]

Drill, respectfully disagree.... I agree that should not teach children how to swing like adults, never mind trying to swing like the top .10 percent of the game, but what comes natural to a child (with limited motor skills) and what they are capable of learning are two different things. Riding a bike would be a good example. The performance gap between their capabilities and their basic instincts is what we need to close. I say teach them what they need to learn to make them successful at the next level.

This is the reason its hard to discuss technique. It sure sounded like you just disagreed with what we both agree on.


drill

[FiveFrameSwing]

I'm not going to get into what Yeager says or means because he's not here to discuss the video, but rather focus in on your apparent misunderstanding and the rigidity of your approach or so it seems to me.

Here is Ortiz on an inside pitch:



According to Yeager, the only time you should see increased flexion in the elbow just before contact is if the hitter is late on an inside pitch and he has to pull his lead arm in to adjust to it. Had he been on time for the pitch he would never pulled his lead arm in.

But I think you knew that.

[4for4]

According to Yeager, the only time you should see increased flexion in the elbow just before contact is if the hitter is late on an inside pitch and he has to pull his lead arm in to adjust to it. Had he been on time for the pitch he would never pulled his lead arm in.

But I think you knew that.

According to video, we see this type of adjustment to inside/outside all the time. If you want to ignore the video, just say so.

[FiveFrameSwing]

5, I think we have to VERY CAREFUL defining the difference between "lead arm extension" and "lead arm extended".

I believe lead arm extension is a position of "non-lockout" to allow for adjustment.


You are correct of course.





If you maintain a "non-lockout" position, the box becomes more apparant then the triangle.


Whether you view it as a "triangle" or "box" doesn't seem to help. The bat is in essence an extension of the lead arm. I believe it is more important to try to "maintain the lead-arm extension" than it is to try to "maintain a box". As you can see, the shape of the 'box' is constantly changing and the notion of "maintaining a changing box" is questionable (at least to me). The concept of "maintaining lead-arm extension" isn't nearly as questionable and it is what I see in your video of Bonds.

Just a thought. I know you are an advocate of the 'box' concept and I also respect your search for truth. To me the focus would be better directed on the lead-arm than on an imaginary box or triangle.

[4for4]

You are correct of course.





Whether you view it as a "triangle" or "box" doesn't seem to help. The bat is in essence an extension of the lead arm. I believe it is more important to try to "maintain the lead-arm extension" than it is to try to "maintain a box". As you can see, the shape of the 'box' is constantly changing and the notion of "maintaining a changing box" is questionable (at least to me). The concept of "maintaining lead-arm extension" isn't nearly as questionable and it is what I see in your video of Bonds.

Just a thought. I know you are an advocate of the 'box' concept and I also respect your search for truth. To me the focus would be better directed on the lead-arm than on a box or triangle.


A great deal of focus absolutely has to be on the lead arm, but you have to understand what's going on in all swings not just one that validates a rigid belief. If you get back to studying clips you should see it. Give it shot and see what happens.

[FiveFrameSwing]

It really suggests you need to revisit Hansen's rule about looking at what all the best hitters are doing and get a better understanding of the why, IMO.

We agree that Hansen's rule should be applied.

What I see when I view elite hitters is that the extension in the lead arm is maintained. The exception being that they need to pull their lead arm in when they have the timing incorrect on the inside pitch. A focus on lead-arm extension therefore passes the Hansen rule.




I think that player on eteamz would benefit greatly from this strategy, as she looked to be struggling quit a bit with what you were teaching her. If you're not doing this then you're short cutting the process.

I don't understand the desire to get off topic. The player on Eteamz that I believe you are referring to is looking for a quick fix. She is even worse off than the Smoot individual that Steve spent months working with during one-on-one sessions. Now there was a gifted athlete that was truly taken down the wrong path. The person on Eteamz needs to see an instructor, even though you have shown that doesn't always help.

[Jake Patterson]

We agree that Hansen's rule should be applied.


Did you just coin a phrase??? The Hansen Rule

[FiveFrameSwing]

Did you just coin a phrase??? The Hansen Rule

Good catch Jake. I made the mistake of copying that from 4x4's post.

I should have typed "The Hanson Principle".

The Hanson Principle:
“Always compare what anybody tells you about the swing to slow motion clips of the best hitters in the world”

- by Mark Hanson

[dannyboy]

if rose “maintained” (box or triangle), he would not have gotten to this pitch (which he did).



and…
circular hand path is relative to view (as in three dimensions)

[4for4]

We agree that Hansen's rule should be applied.

What I see when I view elite hitters is that the extension in the lead arm is maintained. The exception being that they need to pull their lead arm in when they have the timing incorrect on the inside pitch.

Chris, you've got to look at video. You're not doing this. Look at what BoardMember said. You can't lock it in, otherwise you loose ajustability. You have video software where you can look at clips, right. I would use them and look at a lot of clips.





I don't understand the desire to get off topic. The player on Eteamz that I believe you are referring to is looking for a quick fix. She is even worse off than the Smoot individual that Steve spent months working with during one-on-one sessions. Now there was a gifted athlete that was truly taken down the wrong path.

Actually. Smoot had been "working" at it many others for 2 and half years before he spent a month with Steve and a *few other players. Smoot, by his own admission, just couldn't do it, but he could compete at a high level in another sport, kinda like Jordan doing it in basketball but not baseball. Oh and Smoot and Steve still talk from time to time, including just a few days ago and he thinks you're an interesting character. He's also very intelligent. Nice diversion and there's more than just the eteamz gal, but your work with her was not helpful to her or the other posters, because you are mixed up on things. The best thing for you to do is get back to looking at video or just start looking at it, IMO. Give it a try.

*One of the other players:



Do you want to compare one of your hitters to the development of the one above. Let me know.

[FiveFrameSwing]

You can't lock it in, otherwise you loose ajustability.


I think everyone agrees that the lead arm should not be fully "extended".

I may have misinterpreted BoardMember's post, but I believe he was stating the difference between "extension" and "extended".

[4for4]

Good catch Jake. I made the mistake of copying that from 4x4's post.

I should have typed "The Hanson Principle".

The Hanson Principle:
“Always compare what anybody tells you about the swing to slow motion clips of the best hitters in the world”

- by Mark Hanson

No, you said "the Hanson rule" and I said you need to revisit Hanson's rule about using video [as the truth detector], which is what I think you need to do.

[4for4]

I think everyone agrees that the lead arm should not be fully "extended".

I may have misinterpreted BoardMember's post, but I believe he was stating the difference between "extension" and "extended".

You're getting there...take it to the next step. Hint: use video.

[FiveFrameSwing]

Actually. Smoot had been "working" at it many others for 2 and half years before he spent a month with Steve and a *few other players. Smoot, by his own admission, just couldn't do it, but he could compete at a high level in another sport, kinda like Jordan doing it in basketball but not baseball. Oh and Smoot and Steve still talk from time to time, including just a few days ago and he thinks you're an interesting character. He's also very intelligent. Nice diversion and there's more than just the eteamz gal, but your work with her was not helpful to her or the other posters, because you are mixed up on things. The best thing for you to do is get back to looking at video or just start looking at it, IMO. Give it a try.


Smoot's swings after working with Steve were not good.

As for a 'diversion', you are the one that took this off topic.

I'm still not getting this "maintaining a changing box" concept.

Your argument of using an inside pitch for why the lead-arm had to be taken in didn't convince me either.

In all seriousness, I'd be willing to read solid information on the "box" concept and the more factual and verifiable the data, the better chance that I would be convinced. Hopefully you'll look at that as a challenge and get back to the topic.

[4for4]

if rose “maintained” (box or triangle), he would not have gotten to this pitch (which he did).



and…
circular hand path is relative to view (as in three dimensions)





Thanks for the graphics Ray. In your opinion, do you think that "maintain" the box (triangle) can be a euphemism for maintain connection of the lead arm to the shoulders/torso? Do you discount the entire idea of the box as a concept, analogy, model...?

[justthefacts]

.... really understand what the "box" is meant to do (convey)?

I often wonder what "the regulars" would have to talk about on his website if wasn't for concepts developed at the SETPRO forums.

With respect to the concept of the "box" it first made its appearance in the following post on the SETPRO forums website.


12-27-1999, 10:35 PM #5
Jeff
Registered User

Join Date: Dec 1999
Posts: 31

Post
Hi everyone,

Wanted to throw a couple of comments into this thread.

I found Shawn's comments on knob movement to be very enlightening. I think others have noted something very similar.

As for the direction of the hand movement, I'm not sure you would ever be able to state unequivocably that great hitters always move in one direction because that direction is in large part a function of hand placement in the stance and how closely hands and arm movements are coordinated with the body's inward turn. Different hitters will "come from" different places with their hands, and some will have to travel further than others and possibly from different directions, but all will "arrive" at more or less the same position before initiating forward movement (the launching position, which to my knowledge was first described by Lau.) IMO those with the tightest, most compact swings generally have only a slight "backward" hand movement that actually isn't much hand movement at all -- it's the result of the inward cocking turn that "carries" the hands to the launching position with perhaps a bit of extension of the lead arm. (Lau seemed to want to see a nearly extended lead arm. Others want to retain a larger degree of bend. They want to see the arms make a "box.")

It seems to me a lot of teachers talk about this movement and the launching position in a lot of different ways, but they're describing very nearly the same thing. I recently watched Tom Emanski's hitting video and picked up something so doggone simple I was embarassed for not noting it before -- when the hands get to the launching position, the bottom wrist should be cocked sideways, to the thumb side. This points the barrel end of the bat slightly back toward the pitcher, will pitch it at a 45-degree angle to the ground if the hand positioning is otherwise correct, and would point the knob toward the catcher. I knew about the proper bat positioning and keeping the hands just off the rear shoulder, but I had never stopped to consider that if the bottom wrist is cocked, much of that will take care of itself.

I don't think the action Shawn describes is exactly what Jack Mankin is talking about on his site, but it is very close. The prime difference is that Jack seems to be describing a movement that takes place to initiate the swing, not one that gets the hitter into the launching position. But again, it's a different approach to getting to the same general point. With this wrist cock and knob turning, you're in the perfect position to execute the maneuver Jack describes. Unless you do something radical with the hands and arms, you almost have to get the pulling of the bat against the fingers of the top hand that will lower the bat to the proper angle to proceed forward.

I was a little confused by Jack's description of this maneuver when I first read his site. I think he makes it more mysterious sounding than it needs to be, primarily because the way he describes it suggests the top hand is taking an active role in initiating what he describes as a "backward" movement. But in a recent thread over on his site, he surprised me with a response to MissouriDad in which the latter saw the top hand being more passive -- that is, the lower hand as pulling the bat AGAINST the top hand fingers, not so much the top hand fingers pulling against the bat. Jack agreed.I thought it was a bit of a hedge since he says in other areas of his site that he is concerned about getting the top hand to apply force properly. But when he signed off on MissouriDad's description, a lot of things fell into place for me. Shawn's post pulled another piece of the puzzle together.

Again, nice work, Shawn.

Regards,
Jeff

After sporadically being mentioned, the box was formalized in the following post:


09-30-2000, 10:16 PM #37
T Olson
Registered User

Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: Moline, IL USA
Posts: 306

Post
BTW, RQL, I do think two of them--(the same ones that Shawn mentions have this "pulling back with the fingers" or I might also call it a late elbow cock around the backside.

This late cocking seems to be related to what was discussed at one point about a rapid change in the direction of the knob.

I've noticed for some time that my son's cocking probably happens too early and this is my winter project.

WRF--this late cocking is present in the kid's swing you posted awhile back and will be one of our models. I also find that I like the leg lift. Right now my son cocks too much as the leg lifts and I believe he needs to do that more as he's falling/stepping into the swing.

A model I'm working on that sort of relates to the torque issue goes as follows:

Stage 1--a box is formed in the stance the amount of tilt will affect what is done later. My preference in the stance would be neutral where sort of a stretched "W" is formed. The front elbow maybe a little lower than the back ("called the tilted box?"). The knob of the bat is pointed just behind the plate--in my mind.

Stage 2--the box is tilted more (horizontally and vertically) and the back elbow rises and comes around the back a little while the front elbow drops and comes back a little. If I understand what you (Shawn) are saying is that the proportions of the "box" remain more or less the same at this point. The distance between the bottom of the two elbows remains constant. This action obviously causes the bathead to be cocked and the knob now points at the catcher. This action is best if it occurs right before stage 3--the launch, to take advantage of the quick reversal of direction.

Stage 3--if timed right, the box now goes back the other way forcing an instant redirection of the bathead (an early start to batspeed). During this phase the rear elbow ends up pointing almost down while the front elbow now points more or close to horizontal. This varies because the degree to which the box is now tilted establishes the swing plane--this action serves to get the bathead on plane in a dynamic manner. During this stage the hips start opening. What the discrete launch point is I'm not sure. Stage 3 happens very quick and is either the start of the swing or a prelude to the swing depending on how you view it.

Stage 4--The swing. Essentially the back elbow is down and the hands are right above it. From this point on, it is best if the rear elbow stays behind the hands and starts to extend (pushing the hands forward and down) while lead arm pulls in the same direction. I think it's a potential problem when the elbow gets ahead of the hands. My son does this although our work on better extension has improved on it.

What is the relationship to the stride? What I am teaching now is a leg lift that gets the weight back but does not move the hands back (at least not much). The box tilts back with the forward stride so that it is closer to the launch and the dynamic reversal of direction. That is a work-in-progress as my son wants to "tilt the box" too much with the leg lift. The early cocking separates it too much from the launch (or stage 3 if you will).

The kid posted earlier by wrf has the type of motion (leg lift maybe too high) that I would like to see and fits this model pretty well.

Tim


At the time T Olson made this post I really didn't like it because, most of you have done here, took it at face value, i.e. took it too literally. As time went on and as the concepts of PCR W. fell into place, the concept of the box made sense as "conceptual" teaching tool primarily to reinforce the concept of early connection.

On a related matter, i.e. these endlessly lead arm discussions, I really had had to read the following several times to make sure that I was reading it correctly:


What I see when I view elite hitters is that the extension in the lead arm is maintained. The exception being that they need to pull their lead arm in when they have the timing incorrect on the inside pitch. A focus on lead-arm extension therefore passes the Hansen rule.


When does an exception not become an exception?

Just about every high-level hitter that I'm aware of starts with the conceptual box (as defined by PCRW). And again the conceptual box is conceptual tool used to implicitly (convey by analogy) create an association in the player's mind of how the upper body is to "behave" in order to achieve a high level swing. What I chuckle at is how hard some people are working in order to create their own "unique" contributions to the discussion and/or gain notoriety.

[FiveFrameSwing]

You're getting there...take it to the next step. Hint: use video.

Thanks for getting back on topic.

BoardMember used posted video of a “changing box”. He also posted a comparison photo showing Bonds with both a “triangle” and a “box”.

In my view, teaching someone to maintain a “changing box” would be a tough teach. The "box" in this video is not being "maintained". What is being "maintained" is the "lead arm extension".

In the comparison photo neither the “box” or “triangle” were as accurate as “lead arm extension”.

[FiveFrameSwing]

According to video, we see this type of adjustment to inside/outside all the time. If you want to ignore the video, just say so.

Who said anything about ignoring video?

I use video and I've described what I see.

I don't accuse you of using video to hide lateral tilt or anything.

Try to stay on topic. I'm sure you have a lot to offer.

[4for4]

Smoot's swings after working with Steve were not good.

As for a 'diversion', you are the one that took this off topic.


Nah. They were better after working with him, but still were unrecoverable. It's not as though many hadn't tried to help him, it just wasn't in the cards for him. How 'bout that comparison to the player I posted and yours. You want some help on that? Could be a valuable check mark to see how you are progressing with this stuff.



I'm still not getting this "maintaining a changing box" concept.

Your argument of using an inside pitch for why the lead-arm had to taken in didn't convince me either.

Video. That's why I'm saying get back to looking at a lot of video on this point. Don't get to rigid in your thinking and the video will help this.


In all seriousness, I'd be willing to read solid information on the "box" concept and the more factual and verifiable the data, the better chance that I would be convinced. Hopefully you'll look at that as a challenge and get back to the topic.

See, this is what I'm saying. You want to keep reading more info, when pretty straight forward info has been presented with video. What would be best is to look at as many clips as you can on the different locations and watch what the lead arm does. Maybe a hundred clips or so. If you don't have that many, we could chip in and help get you more.

[4for4]

Who said anything about ignoring video?

I use video and I've described what I see.

I don't accuse you of using video to hide lateral tilt or anything.

Try to stay on topic. I'm sure you have a lot to offer.

You keep diverting by bringing up other elements. It's going to be hard on you to get this lead arm thing if you don't focus on it.

[4for4]

Thanks for getting back on topic.

BoardMember used posted video of a “changing box”. He also posted a comparison photo showing Bonds with both a “triangle” and a “box”.

In my view, teaching someone to maintain a “changing box” would be a tough teach. The "box" in this video is not being "maintained". What is being "maintained" is the "lead arm extension".

In the comparison photo neither the “box” or “triangle” were as accurate as “lead arm extension”.

Not if you look into the video more and understand all that goes into the lead arm and the adjustment issue. It's really there, I promise.

[FiveFrameSwing]

Is the lack of upper body torque being taught intentionally?

Is this what you see when you view a wide array of videos? Or are you just reviewing videos that support your rigid view of what you perceive to be happening?

[FiveFrameSwing]

.... really understand what the "box" is meant to do (convey)?


4x4 ... could you please answer this?

[4for4]

Is the lack of upper body torque being taught intentionally?

Is this what you see when you view a wide array of videos? Or are you just reviewing videos that support your rigid view of what you perceive to be happening?

This makes no sense. You're off topic again. I mentioned as an aside, that I would be willing to sync up this video with one of yours so you can see if you ar e on the right track. Do you want to do that?

[4for4]

4x4 ... could you please answer this?

I think you should read his entire post and you might learn something, in all seriousness.

[FiveFrameSwing]

Not if you look into the video more and understand all that goes into the lead arm and the adjustment issue. It's really there, I promise.

It sort of has to be ... at least to those of us (you and me) that apply the Hanson Principle.

I do appreciate your points that have been on topic. They cause me to look at this closer.

Tell me why you like the "maintain the box" concept?

In so doing, let me describe what I'm leary about with respect to the "maintain the box" concept.

1: I'm concerned that it leads people to avoid lead arm extension and instead have more of an "L" with their lead arm.

2: I'm concerned that this encourages the lack of upper body torque (as in the example you recently posted).

3: I'm concerned that the "box" that is trying to be "maintained" is in fact "changing" while what is being "maintained" is the extension of the lead arm.

[FiveFrameSwing]

This makes no sense. You're off topic again.

No ... this is not off topic.

See my post above on my concerns with the "maintaining the box" concept.

One of my concerns is that this "maintaining the box" concept promotes a lack of upper body torque.

[JK-CA]

Using Smoot Carter as a represantative of what is taught and conveyed by Steve Englishbey is not accurate. Carter started playing "late in the game" and people that have agendas try to use him as the poster boy for Englishbey/Setpro methods. This is completetly misleading.

I use those same methods when I teach and I have plenty of excellent students who will go on to play college or professionally. I also have a video library to prove it. I used setpro stuff as a player, it worked well enough to get me into pro baseball.

Their were many factors with Smoot that contributed to him not being as succesful as he wanted. Blaming the teacher is not one of them, and is completely dishonest.

[Drill]

Using Smoot Carter as a represantative of what is taught and conveyed by Steve Englishbey is not accurate. Carter started playing "late in the game" and people that have agendas try to use him as the poster boy for Englishbey/Setpro methods. This is completetly misleading.

I use those same methods when I teach and I have plenty of excellent students who will go on to play college or professionally. I also have a video library to prove it. I used setpro stuff as a player, it worked well enough to get me into pro baseball.

Their were many factors with Smoot that contributed to him not being as succesful as he wanted. Blaming the teacher is not one of them, and is completely dishonest.



Just by all the DVD's and use what works for you is the adage than. What works for some does not work for others.


drill

[FiveFrameSwing]

I use those same methods when I teach and I have plenty of excellent students who will go on to play college or professionally. I also have a video library to prove it. I used setpro stuff as a player, it worked well enough to get me into pro baseball.



Please describe the purpose of these drills.

http://photos.imageevent.com/scarter/backarmdrills52505//backarmdrill525052.gif

http://photos.imageevent.com/scarter/backarmdrills52505//backarmswing52505.gif

http://photos.imageevent.com/scarter/backshoulder52505//spudbackside52505.gif

http://photos.imageevent.com/scarter/backshoulder52505//spudfront52505.gif

http://photos.imageevent.com/scarter/backshoulder52505//spudside52505.gif

p.s.
Keep in mind that this young man was a phenomenal athlete.

[bronxkid]

Two triangles lying on opposite sides will make a box. Split it in half and you have a triangle. Same exact thing, same exact concept.

Call it what you will.......:homeplate:

[4for4]

It sort of has to be ... at least to those of us (you and me) that apply the Hanson Principle.

I do appreciate your points that have been on topic. They cause me to look at this closer.

Tell me why you like the "maintain the box" concept?

In so doing, let me describe what I'm leary about the "maintain the box" concept.

1: I'm concerned that it leads people to avoid lead arm extension and instead have more of an "L" with their lead arm.

2: I'm concerned that this encourages the lack of upper body torque (as in the example you recently posted).

3: I'm concerned that the "box" that is trying to be "maintained" is in fact "changing" while what is being "maintained" is the extension of the lead arm.

Chris, I could go back and requote what's been written, but I don't want to. I've said that you need to look at a more complete sampling of the video, and look and understand why the "box" (lead arm) does what is does on different pitch locations. And "maintaining" the box does not interfere with the timing of the loading/unloading, transfer mechanics or the kinetic chain. The videos I've already presented verify this and if you look at more video it will also verify this. Now get to work on that video.

[FiveFrameSwing]

And "maintaining" the box does not interfere with the timing of the loading/unloading, transfer mechanics or the kinetic chain. The videos I've already presented verify this and if you look at more video it will also verify this.


Thank you for the response.

My concern is that by maintaining a focus on a "box", rather than on the extension of the lead arm, that one would be more inclined to rotate their body as a unit without upper body torque.

I appreciate your time and points of view.

[4for4]

Thank you for the response.

My concern is that by maintaining a focus on a "box", rather than on the extension of the lead arm, that one would be more inclined to rotate their body as a unit without upper body torque.

I appreciate your time and points of view.

I think you've been reading too many fiction novels as of late. Try not to be a monolith or so gullible.

[FiveFrameSwing]

I think you've been reading too many fiction novels as of late.

Fiction novels? Nah, just about maintaining a box ... ... ... that's a joke ... since the "box" is in essence something to be imagined.

I seriously appreciate reading your input on this topic.

I'll try to keep an open mind on it, but for the time being will likely continue to place more of a focus on the lead arm.

Thank you.

[4for4]

Please describe the purpose of these drills.


p.s.
Keep in mind that this young man was a phenomenal athlete.

None of these are with Steve. He's doing those on his own and only one looks even remotely close to a drill that Steve encourages players to use as part of a warmup strategy before a hitting session. As I recall, most folks were trying to figure out what he was doing when he first made some of those clips and many encouraged him to put his good athleticism to good use and he did. It wasn't in the cards for him.

Chris, so when do you want to do the comparison of those that you allegedly work with. You know, to sync them up with this guy:

[4for4]

Fiction novels? Nah, just about maintaining a box ... ... ... that's a joke ... since the "box" is in essence something to be imagined.

I seriously appreciate reading your input on this topic.

I'll try to keep an open mind on it, but for the time being will likely continue to place more of a focus on the lead arm.

Thank you.

I imagine based on your writing that you think looking at video is fiction and that's not going to help you. Keep looking at the video until you understand what's going on. Really, try it.

[FiveFrameSwing]

You seem proud of this swing, so I viewed it on a frame-by-frame basis.

Actually this guy is fairly decent (try to ignore the result of a hit grounder). You have reason to be proud.

I have a few questions for you.

Look at the frame with the label “Frames Cnt to contact: 1”. His hips have turned and his shoulders are square to the plate. If this is a typical student then it looks like you now teach upper body torque as part of the swing. Is it true that you now encourage the creation of upper body torque in the swing?

This student also appears to have active hands (somewhat similar to what Richard advocates but without the tipping). I kid you not. Take a look on a frame-by-frame basis. It's there.

Could it be that you and Richard are converging?

[4for4]

You keep editing your posts like Richard does. Are you settled on this one or are you going to edit it again?


You seem proud of this swing, so I viewed it on a frame-by-frame basis.

Actually this guy is fairly decent (try to ignore the result of a hit grounder). You have reason to be proud.

I have a few questions for you.

Look at the frame with the label “Frames Cnt to contact: 1”. His hips have turned and his shoulders are square to the plate. If this is a typical student then it looks like you now teach upper body torque as part of the swing. Is it true that you now encourage the creation of upper body torque in the swing?

This student also appears to have active hands (somewhat similar to what Richard advocates but without the tipping). I kid you not. Take a look on a frame-by-frame basis. It's there.

Could it be that you and Richard are converging?

[mbs]

A summary of steveE's video:

"Just hold on to the bat and turn."---he says this at least 70 times---

4for4--please do a side by side of steve on that video and a high level hitter and do the "Hanson test"---compare it to the best....

Thats about all that is said on the 1st DVD --oh yea ---he also says posture-connection and rotation...



5frame--you are right--any attempt to maintain the box will:
"reduce the stretch reflex and disrupt lag for momentum transfer"--Yeager


I posted this in another thread:


Yeager on extension: He drives home the point that the extension should be "relaxed" and NOT locked out--and that adjustments can be made on lead arm extension, "especially if the hitter is late on an inside pitch.

The "early lead arm extension" he talks about occurs during the back leg push when the extension occurs as a COMBINATION of the body being shifted away from the hands and the hands reaching back....

On the Barfield analysis sheet, he even lists degrees of flexion the hitter should obtain:

Back leg Load 130 deg
Back leg Push 140 deg
Front leg block 150 deg
front leg push 158 deg

reference: 180 deg would be fully extended and 90 deg would be maintaining the "L" in the front arm....

[FiveFrameSwing]

I imagine based on your writing that you think looking at video is fiction and that's not going to help you. Keep looking at the video until you understand what's going on. Really, try it.

Trust me, I'm a huge believer in the Hanson Principle. That's why I require verification before accepting such concepts as the "maintain the changing box" theory. That if of course is a joke ... except for the part about requiring verfication.

[FiveFrameSwing]

You keep editing your posts like Richard does. Are you settled on this one or are you going to edit it again?

I'm a terrible speller. I also tend to leave out words that make reading the intent somewhat difficult. Sorry!

[FiveFrameSwing]

5frame--you are right--any attempt to maintain the box will:
"reduce the stretch reflex and disrupt lag for momentum transfer"--Yeager


Thank you.

That is a concern I have with the "maintain the box" concept.

[BoardMember]

Five, I'm going to try to explain why I like the box principle vs. the triangle principle when teaching.

When I think of the triangle I visualize 2 things.

1.) A lead arm the is virtually straight. As you know I have HUGE issues with this, both physically and with the mental picture.

2.) I envision a top hand that disconnects early, "casts" if you will, very early in the swing to create this triangle.

Now I realize that the box or the triangle line is drawn from the rear shoulder to the hands, but when visualizing a triangle I see 2 straight arms and the shoulder line. I have no doubt that this is what a youth hitter would visualize as well, leading to a looooong swing, instead of being short to contact.

The box on the other hand gives me a visual of the rear shoulder line to the hands (at a fairly close prox. to the rear shoulder), to a flexed (even if extension exists) lead arm, up the upper arm to the front shoulder.

This to me creates a much shorter, "way more adjustable" path into contact in youth hitters.

So, while I understand and see what you see, I don't agree that it is the "best teach" for youth hitters.

I believe teaching "box maint." until the hands release from the shoulders is the best teach..........:thumbsup:



Thank you.

That is a concern I have with the "maintain the box" concept.

[CoachB25]

Board Member, that was a well thought out post. I appreciate it. Thanks!:applaud::applaud:

[Erik]

Five, I'm going to try to explain why I like the box principle vs. the triangle principle when teaching.

When I think of the triangle I visualize 2 things.

1.) A lead arm the is virtually straight. As you know I have HUGE issues with this, both physically and with the mental picture.

2.) I envision a top hand that disconnects early, "casts" if you will, very early in the swing to create this triangle.

Now I realize that the box or the triangle line is drawn from the rear shoulder to the hands, but when visualizing a triangle I see 2 straight arms and the shoulder line. I have no doubt that this is what a youth hitter would visualize as well, leading to a looooong swing, instead of being short to contact.

The box on the other hand gives me a visual of the rear shoulder line to the hands (at a fairly close prox. to the rear shoulder), to a flexed (even if extension exists) lead arm, up the upper arm to the front shoulder.

This to me creates a much shorter, "way more adjustable" path into contact in youth hitters.

So, while I understand and see what you see, I don't agree that it is the "best teach" for youth hitters.

I believe teaching "box maint." until the hands release from the shoulders is the best teach..........:thumbsup:



BoardMember,


I believe teaching "box maint." until the hands release from the shoulders is the best teach..........


I agree with this!



EL,

[4for4]

I'm glad you've finished with your syntax errors. You need to go to your next post and fix that one as well. It's unreadable.


You seem proud of this swing, so I viewed it on a frame-by-frame basis.

I'm more discerning than that. Gullible is a weak quality.


Actually this guy is fairly decent (try to ignore the result of a hit grounder).

Actually, it was a line drive through the box. One of only 2 hits off the pitcher who happend to be pitching a no-hitter up to that point. Real elite level pitching -- +90 mph, being highly recruited. You really need to look at video.



If this is a typical student then it looks like you now teach upper body torque as part of the swing. Is it true that you now encourage the creation of upper body torque in the swing?

This isn't some junior high debate class where faulty logic goes un-noticed. This player has a few years under his belt working with Englishbey.


This student also appears to have active hands (somewhat similar to what Richard advocates but without the tipping). I kid you not. Take a look on a frame-by-frame basis. It's there.

You seem to be retreating back to the fiction. Start looking at what's going on in the video. Really, the real stuff is there.

Chris, you haven't answered my question. Let's do that comparison of one of your hitting students. It will be a great way for you learn and will give you an opportunity to start looking at video and we can see how all your theorizing is applied and can compare to Englishbey. While you are doing this, you can also keep working on understanding the lead arm.

[BoardMember]

When I visualize someone with a "triangle", this is what I see. Notice the early cast of the rear hand and "extended" lead arm.:



Go watch her hit. Ignore the horrible overall mechanics, but watch her make a "triangle" to hit:

http://www.youtube.com/v/XYyA3sDDvEk

[FiveFrameSwing]

I'm glad you've finished with your syntax errors.

Perhaps you could explain why some of your posts are edited? I'm at a loss for why you continue to drift off topic. Get a hold of yourself.

You've responded to this post twice now and have failed to answer the question. Give it another try.

Do you see the upper body torque and early hand action in the swing that you are proud of?

[4for4]

The box on the other hand gives me a visual of the rear shoulder line to the hands (at a fairly close prox. to the rear shoulder), to a flexed (even if extension exists) lead arm, up the upper arm to the front shoulder.

This to me creates a much shorter, "way more adjustable" path into contact in youth hitters.

I think this is very helpful to young players both conceptually and in terms of practicing, understanding the need to link up the the energy source of the body quickly without leaving the hands behind as well as getting them out in front inappropriately. And it allows them to be in a position to make adjustments and understand those adjustments, IMO.

[FiveFrameSwing]

When I visualize someone with a "triangle", this is what I see. Notice the early cast of the rear hand and "extended" lead arm.:



Go watch her hit. Ignore the horrible overall mechanics, but watch her make a "triangle" to hit:

http://www.youtube.com/v/XYyA3sDDvEk

Wow. She was wearing sandals.

Thank you for the prior response.

I have way too much respect and appreciation for your posts to toss this off without giving it more consideration.

In terms of teaching “maintaining a triangle” I agree that the result could be a disaster.

In terms of teaching “maintaining a box” I remain concerned that it would guide kids to avoiding lead arm extension and to limiting upper body torque. I taught this before and those were two of the issues that existed.

I currently instruct hitters to extend their hands back towards the catcher as they stride forward and to maintain that lead arm extension through contact.

I do sincerely appreciate your input.

[4for4]

Perhaps you could explain why some of your posts are edited?

Uh, because I can?


I'm at a loss for why you continue to drift off topic. Get a hold of yourself.

Pretty defensive response.


You've responded to this post twice now and have failed to answer the question. Give it another try.

Nah, you don't get to reframe the discussion.

Now, what about the comparison of your hitter and Englishbey's hitter. Why do you keep dancing around this question Chris?:dance Let's see how your theorizing stacks up to Englishbey's work?

[FiveFrameSwing]

I think this is very helpful to young players both conceptually and in terms of practicing, understanding the need to link up the the energy source of the body quickly without leaving the hands behind as well as getting them out in front inappropriately. And it allows them to be in a position to make adjustments and understand those adjustments, IMO.

As an FYI, one of the reasons that Donny was a strong advocate of creating upper body torque was because it added "adjustability" into the swing.

[4for4]

In terms of teaching “maintaining a box” I remain concerned that it would guide kids to avoiding lead arm extension and to limiting upper body torque. I taught this before and those were two of the issues that existed.

I currently instruct hitters to extend their hands back towards the catcher as they stride forward and to maintain that lead arm extension through contact.


So does Englishbey and lots of other I guess, but he has a drill, one that I think has been very help in eliminating a shrinking front arm when it shouldn't be. As I said previously, you appear to be to rigid in your approach. That's why the I provided various videos to you to broaden your horizons a bit. Keep after it.

[4for4]

As an FYI, one of the reasons that Donny was a strong advocate of creating upper body torque was because it added "adjustability" into the swing.

So I've heard.

[FiveFrameSwing]

I can understand why you like this guys swing.

It contains both upper body torque and early hand action ... which are two items that I don't believe you teach.

Take another look at the frame labeled “Frames Cnt to contact: 1”. His hips have already begun to rotate forward but the shoulders are square to the plate. While such upper body torque is typical in the MLB pattern, it is something that I didn't think you were teaching.

When I saw the early hand action I laughed out loud. I know you and Richard have gone several rounds on this. So seeing you take pride in a hitter that uses such early hand action caused me to chuckle.

It's possible that this kid is good because he's either not listening to Steve's instruction, or because he's figured out what to add.

In any event, he looks like a good kid and you should be proud of him.

[FiveFrameSwing]

So does Englishbey and lots of other I guess, but he has a drill, one that I think has been very help in eliminating a shrinking front arm when it shouldn't be. As I said previously, you appear to be to rigid in your approach. That's why the I provided various videos to you to broaden your horizons a bit. Keep after it.

Thank you for this response.

Please explain what you mean by "a shrinking front arm".

p.s.
And I do appreciate the videos.

[BoardMember]

And another couple of triangles:



Watch the first guy. His "triangle" is keeping him from having any chance:

http://www.youtube.com/v/5jiAl_WRH8o

See if you see a difference using "box maint":



Watch his swing:

http://www.youtube.com/v/ZU6NU_BIudM

[4for4]

I can understand why you like this guys swing.

It contains both upper body torque and early hand action ... which are two items that I don't believe you teach.

Take another look at the frame labeled “Frames Cnt to contact: 1”. His hips have already begun to rotate forward but the shoulders are square to the plate. While such upper body torque is typical in the MLB pattern, it is something that I didn't think you were teaching.

When I saw the early hand action I laughed out loud. I know you and Richard have gone several rounds on this. So seeing you take pride in a hitter that uses such early hand action caused me to chuckle.

It's possible that this kid is good because he's either not listening to Steve's instruction, or because he's figured out what to add.

In any event, he looks like a good kid and you should be proud of him.

His instruction has been with Steve and Steve only. That's what I chuckle at. Because your rational is disingenuous on it's face.

Richard's hand action is fiction.

Chris, let's get serious. You are avoiding the question, purposely it appears. The comparison of your player to Englishbey's player. What say you?

[Jake Patterson]

I view the triangle similar to Board..

[Go Cardinals]

His instruction has been with Steve and Steve only. That's what I chuckle at. Because your rational is disingenuous on it's face.

Richard's hand action is fiction.

Chris, let's get serious. You are avoiding the question, purposely it appears. The comparison of your player to Englishbey's player. What say you?

You keep insulting HI, but isn't that swingbuilder, lclifton, pronk, and dmac?
Dmac is the only significant one for my example. He believed in very similar things that FiveFrameSwing does. He is the pioneer of tip and rip. So look at his son.

Correct me if I'm wrong...

[4for4]

Thank you for this response.

Please explain what you mean by "a shrinking front arm".

p.s.
And I do appreciate the videos.

Lead arm angle shrinks via a pulling action in the shoulder (deltoid). You can see the angle of the lead arm at the elbow joint in Renteria at 90 degrees there abouts for example. In the shrinking front arm, the angle actually will get smaller because of the wrong kind of pulling action in the front shoulder. The front arm at the elbow actually gets outside the torso, which slows the bat (disconnection - wrong muscle action).

Jim Booth was kind enough to do a demo and it shows what I'm talking about. It's on siggy's site. I'm not picking on Jim, just that the demo shows what I'm referring to.

Where I differ on the lead arm issue that you attribute to Yeager: lead arm extension is maintained throughout the swing unless the hitter has mistimed the pitch. In my view, and the videos show this, it has nothing to do with timing and everything to do with adjustment.

[4for4]

You keep insulting HI, but isn't that swingbuilder, lclifton, pronk, and dmac?
Dmac is the only significant one for my example. He believed in very similar things that FiveFrameSwing does. He is the pioneer of tip and rip. So look at his son.

Correct me if I'm wrong...

You would be wrong and I chalk it up to youthful exuberance.

[Jake Patterson]

You keep insulting HI, but isn't that swingbuilder, lclifton, pronk, and dmac?
Dmac is the only significant one for my example. He believed in very similar things that FiveFrameSwing does. He is the pioneer of tip and rip. So look at his son.

Correct me if I'm wrong...

Wrong .

[Go Cardinals]

Ok... so how am I wrong. I'm just trying to learn here.

[Chris O'Leary]

Chris Teacherman has been talking about a Triangle for over a year now. Have you analyzed his take? There are some recent posts within the last day over at HSBBW (Teacherman - Loose Cannon) regarding separation, being key, but one of the threads discusses a triangle instead of a box.

Sorry for the delay...

I wasn't aware of Teacherman's ideas.

I don't think they are much more valuable than the box. That is because the box varies to such a degree that it's almost useless.



The point I'm trying to make with the triangle is that at least Pete Rose...

1. Maintains the 90 degree angle (angle E).
2. Maintains the length of the longest segment of the triangle (segment E-H).

Frank Robinson does the same basic thing in his clip.

In the prototypical bat drag photo, you can see the triangle break down in two ways. Angle E changes from 90 to 135+ degrees and the length of segment E-H lessens significantly.

[Chris O'Leary]

To me the concept of "The Box" tends to promote the concept of having a 90-degree bend in the lead-arm. As Yeager demonstrates, that's not what is going on.

I have seen lots of 90 degree bends in good swings of guys like Jeter and Boggs...

[Chris O'Leary]

Is this not a box??



The problem with this concept of the box is that anything goes in terms of the angles that make it up. That makes it less than a useless tool.

The point of the triangle is that you have to have a 90 degree angle between the hands and shoulders to have optimum connection.

[Chris O'Leary]

The issue isn't so much what the box is or looks like -- the critical mechanic is maintaining the box, however you choose to set it up. In other words, during the stride the bottom arm may be extended back toward the catcher ("walking away from your hands"), but, as the rotation starts, whatever elbow angle remains must be maintained (and, if possible in that circumstance made more acute) so as to increase the degree of angular momentum that the hands create in an ever-tightening arc. If the elbow in allowed to loosen up even more, you get slop in your swing and little angular momentum. That's reason No. 1 for maintaining the box.

Thanks.

This is my point exactly.

Within reason, it may not matter that much exactly what the angles are. What matters is that you MAINTAIN those angles during the swing.

[Chris O'Leary]

There are many cases of lead-arm extension ...

In the Manny clip, he breaks his bat, so that's not necessarily a good swing. He probably extended to get a pitch outside (which is why he broke his bat).

In the Mantle clip, he extends after the Point Of Contact.

[Chris O'Leary]

Chris, you've got to look at video. You're not doing this.

Yes I am.



Look at what BoardMember said. You can't lock it in, otherwise you loose ajustability.

I agree with this to a degree.

However, in a non-fooled swing, I would see the 90 degree angle being maintained. However, the distance of the hands from the back shoulder would change depending on the location of the pitch.

[Go Cardinals]

I don't see a triangle or a square (overall), I see a home-plate.
:homeplate:

IMO, there is a cross between a box and a triangle. So,e do more than the other... so I'll call it a homeplate (as someone mention before on this thread).

Ignore the line going through Hafner...

[Chris O'Leary]

if rose “maintained” (box or triangle), he would not have gotten to this pitch (which he did).



Yes he could have.

He would have maintained the 90 degree angle.

However, the distance from his hands to his back shoulder may have changed.

[Chris O'Leary]

Five, I'm going to try to explain why I like the box principle vs. the triangle principle when teaching.

When I think of the triangle I visualize 2 things.

1.) A lead arm the is virtually straight. As you know I have HUGE issues with this, both physically and with the mental picture.

2.) I envision a top hand that disconnects early, "casts" if you will, very early in the swing to create this triangle.

Now I realize that the box or the triangle line is drawn from the rear shoulder to the hands, but when visualizing a triangle I see 2 straight arms and the shoulder line. I have no doubt that this is what a youth hitter would visualize as well, leading to a looooong swing, instead of being short to contact.

Valid criticism.

Maybe it would be better described as another L. Adding the third line may lead people to draw incorrect assumptions about what the front arm should do.

[FiveFrameSwing]

The point I'm trying to make with the triangle is that at least Pete Rose...

2. Maintains the length of the longest segment of the triangle (segment E-H).


And this is a concern with the "maintain the box" and "maintain the triangle" concepts. The most significant lever isn't E-H, but the lead arm R-H.

[FiveFrameSwing]

Where I differ on the lead arm issue that you attribute to Yeager: lead arm extension is maintained throughout the swing unless the hitter has mistimed the pitch. In my view, and the videos show this, it has nothing to do with timing and everything to do with adjustment.


I appreciate the clarification on where you differ.

I'll keep reviewing video and if I find that data supports your claim then I'll adapt ... i.e., The Hanson Principle.

[Chris O'Leary]

And this is a concern with the "maintain the box" and "maintain the triangle" concepts. The most significant lever isn't E-H, but the lead arm R-H.

I would agree that R-H helps you maintain angle E.

However, some people (like Jeter) maintain angle E with a bent R-H elbow while others do it with with an extended R-H elbow.

I don't think it really matters as long as you maintain angle E.

[Drill]

Thanks.

This is my point exactly.

Within reason, it may not matter that much exactly what the angles are. What matters is that you MAINTAIN those angles during the swing.

No matter how you get to the point of contact it comes down to timing and bat speed. Stride, no stride keeping the elbow in and timing the ball. All I know that I have seen a lot of successful and differant swings by a lot of successful players young and old again, I say you can arrive at the ball many differant ways but in the end it comes down to bat speed and timing.


respectfully yours,

drill

[FiveFrameSwing]

The problem with this concept of the box is that anything goes in terms of the angles that make it up. That makes it less than a useless tool.


This is why I refer to the theory as the "maintaining the changing box".






The point of the triangle is that you have to have a 90 degree angle between the hands and shoulders to have optimum connection.

If this "maintaining the box" and "maintaining the triangle" is all about "bat drag", then I think this whole thing is way overblown. Bat drag issues are relatively easy to correct and don't need a "maintain the X" thought to get rid of it. The notion of "maintaining lead arm extension" is much bigger than that.

Keeping the arm extended keeps the torso behind the hips. Once the torso begins to unwind you keep the extension, that keeps the shoulders back. And once the shoulders begin to unwind the arm stays extended to keep the arm behind the shoulder. And once the arms finally come around you want to maintain the cock of the wrist to keep the hands and bat behind the arm.

I can't believe this "maintain the triangle/box" is all about the prevention of "bat lag". Please say it ain't so.

[FiveFrameSwing]

Adding the third line may lead people to draw incorrect assumptions about what the front arm should do.


I think that's what a great deal of the fuss is about ... the lead arm is extremely important.

[BoardMember]

You keep insulting HI, but isn't that swingbuilder, lclifton, pronk, and dmac?

GC, I can tell you LClifton doesn't teach a triangle, or that lead arm extension "must be maintained".

He does teach a few absolutes, and they mostly have to do with preparation (load) and transfer.

He absolutely believes in Good Posture, Good Connection, and Good Rotation.

Not every member of the HI site is in full agreement with it's Doctrine either.

Many, unlike Teacherman, are capable of contributing very good dialogue (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dialogue) regarding the theory of hitting. And they are Objective in principle.

The thread that Encinitas pointed to on HSBBW with loser-cannon regarding the "triangle" turned into a huge pissing match and was completely useless IMO....:thumbsdown:

[4for4]

This is why I refer to the theory as the "maintaining the changing box".






If this "maintaining the box" and "maintaining the triangle" is all about "bat drag", then I think this whole thing is way overblown. Bat drag issues are relatively easy to correct and don't need a "maintain the X" thought to get rid of it. The notion of "maintaining lead arm extension" is much bigger than that.

Keeping the arm extended keeps the torso behind the hips. Once the torso begins to unwind you keep the extension, that keeps the shoulders back. And once the shoulders begin to unwind the arm stays extended to keep the arm behind the shoulder. And once the arms finally come around you want to maintain the cock of the wrist to keep the hands and bat behind the arm.

I can't believe this "maintain the triangle/box" is all about the prevention of "bat lag". Please say it ain't so.

What about the comparison of your hitter and Englishbey's hitter. Why the dance?:choke:

"maintaining lead arm extension" isn't much bigger because it doesn't happen as you think it does. It's precisely why the idea of box is much better concept. The video shows that. Why not look at the video. It's really all there.

[FiveFrameSwing]

I would agree that R-H helps you maintain angle E.

However, some people (like Jeter) maintain angle E with a bent R-H elbow while others do it with with an extended R-H elbow.

I don't think it really matters as long as you maintain angle E.

Maybe I am alone here, but I view the bat as an extension of the lead arm. I consider the lead arm to be the main hitting lever and I believe that one of the major reasons for the early weight shift is to make this the primary lever of importance.

[FiveFrameSwing]

No matter how you get to the point of contact it comes down to timing and bat speed.


Well, I'll credit Steve here, and say that there is also a matter of one's swing plane.

[Go Cardinals]

The thread that Encinitas pointed to on HSBBW with loser-cannon regarding the "triangle" turned into a huge pissing match

Although I enjoy reading these arguments, wouldn't you call this a pissing match? or are there worse?

[FiveFrameSwing]

"maintaining lead arm extension" isn't much bigger because it doesn't happen as you think it does. It's precisely why the idea of box is much better concept. The video shows that. Why not look at the video. It's really all there.

Yes, "maintaining lead arm extension" is much more than the avoidance of "bat drag".

The best hitters maintain this lead arm extension, wrist cocked position, longer than most. And they normally get better extension than others. The lead arm extension stays all the way through contact. So you gain extension during the stride and you want to maintain that extension all the way through contact.

If the teaching of "maintain the box/triangle" is for the avoidance of "bat drag", then I'm sorry I bothered entering into this discussion in the first place.

[mbs]

fo fo fo

Why the dance?


please do a side by side of steve on that video and a high level hitter and do the "Hanson test"---compare it to the best....



"Just hold on to the bat and turn"-SE:rofl::rofl::rofl:"

[4for4]

Yes, "maintaining lead arm extension" is much more than the avoidance of "bat drag".

The best hitters maintain this lead arm extension, wrist cocked position, longer than most. And they normally get better extension than others. The lead arm stays extended all the way through contact. So you gain extension during the stride and you want to maintain that extension all the way through contact.

No you don't as evidenced by the video illustrated here. It's not an absolute maintain.

Why do you avoid the comparison?

[BoardMember]

NO NOT AT ALL.

I do not see any personal attacks. I see no one call the other useless, stupid or ignorant for their views. I also don't seen anyone saying something that cannot be interpeted by another as a legitimate view (when viewed from a different prospective). We don't however all agree. Thats ok. That's what it's about.

I see good interactive dialogue by people who "really know their crap", myself included, without being condesending, with the exception of 4x just a little.

Go read the thread, or any thead for that matter that includes "whats-his-face". Every thread includes derogatory, inflamatory, defamatory insults.

EVERY SINGLE ONE......

Moving on.......;)


Although I enjoy reading these arguments, wouldn't you call this a pissing match? or are there worse?

[FiveFrameSwing]

fo fo fo

Why the dance?





"Just hold on to the bat and turn"-SE:rofl::rofl::rofl:"

Now that made me laugh out loud.

[Go Cardinals]

4 for 4, can you put Steve's recent videos up here. He told me that he had been working on his swing recently. I think that it would only be fair if Steve's recent video was up, since Steve does all of his ideas himself... he's his own poster child in a way. :crossfingers::bowdown:

[mbs]

fo fo fo:
Why do you avoid the comparison?

That's what I'm asking you........

[Go Cardinals]

NO NOT AT ALL.

I do not see any personal attacks. I see no one call the other useless, stupid or ignorant for their views. I also don't seen anyone saying something that cannot be interpeted by another as a legitimate view.

I see good interactive dialogue by people who "really know their crap", myself included, without being condesending, with the exception of 4x just a little.

Go read the thread, or any thead for that matter that includes "whats-his-face". Every thread includes derogatory, inflamatory, defamatory insults.

EVERY SINGLE ONE......

Moving on.......;)

I take that as a no...:sorry::sorry::hide::bowdown::blush::shrug:

[4for4]

Yes, "maintaining lead arm extension" is much more than the avoidance of "bat drag".

The best hitters maintain this lead arm extension, wrist cocked position, longer than most. And they normally get better extension than others. The lead arm extension stays all the way through contact. So you gain extension during the stride and you want to maintain that extension all the way through contact.

If the teaching of "maintain the box/triangle" is for the avoidance of "bat drag", then I'm sorry I bothered entering into this discussion in the first place.

Perfect example of where you are missing it:

Little guy on left with lead arm extension and bat drag, Pro on right with out either:



You just haven't looked at the video. Do that and you'll understand it. Get after it.

Let me know on the comparison. Your avoiding it for some reason.

[FiveFrameSwing]

No you don't as evidenced by the video illustrated here. It's not an absolute maintain.

Why do you avoid the comparison?

There's plenty of evidence of the lead arm angle being maintained after the weight shift forward.

[4for4]

There's plenty of evidence of the lead arm angle being maintained after the weight shift forward.

You continue to miss this. I didn't say there wasn't evidence that the lead arm angle isn't maintained by some. I maintain it's variable. And I showed video that it's variable. You've validated my point, however unwittingly, by putting up your video. Not an absolute.

The comparison? Are you going to answer?

[FiveFrameSwing]

Many, unlike Teacherman, are capable of contributing very good dialogue (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dialogue) regarding the theory of hitting. And they are Objective in principle.


I think Richard is "capable", he just chooses to be an arrogant son of a gun ... much like he accuses someone else of being. He probably has something noteworthy to contribute, but you’d have to be willing to endure some pain to get it out of him.

[FiveFrameSwing]

You continue to miss this. I didn't say there wasn't evidence that the lead arm angle isn't maintained by some. I maintain it's variable. And I showed video that it's variable. You've validated my point, however unwittingly, by putting up your video. Not an absolute.


The video you showed was that of an inside pitch in which the batter was behind on. Yeager explains in his DVD that this is a case of the hitter needing to make an adjustment, and had his timing been correct then the adjustment would not have been necessary.

I know you don't agree with what I just wrote above, but it is what I believe and it is what Yeager documents in his DVD.

I explained it a few times to you. We disagree. I'm okay with that and I still respect you as a knowledgable person despite that I differ in opinion with you on certain areas.

[mbs]

Perfect example of where you are missing it:

Little guy on left with lead arm extension and bat drag, Pro on right with out either:



You just haven't looked at the video. Do that and you'll understand it. Get after it.

Let me know on the comparison. Your avoiding it for some reason.

PCR always pulls up this little guy or the little guy from the Dominican (or wherever) as their poster children for bat drag--If they would NOT let the back hand "supinate prematurely" as Yeager says, then they would be in great shape---heck as the Dominican got stronger he probably fixed it naturally and is playing pro ball somewhere...Either that or a coach got a hold of him, took away his natural movement and told him to just turn...

[FiveFrameSwing]

The comparison? Are you going to answer?

I'm impressed that Steve is teaching upper body torque ... and I don't say that tongue-in-cheek. One of my biggest complaints with Steve's teachings is the lack of upper body torque. I think once he makes this more public that he'll find a bigger following.

I'm very surprised that he is teaching early hand action. I didn't see Steve getting to that for several more years.

[BoardMember]

This guy is a good example of maintaining lead arm extension:



Like I said to Donny last year, for every IS, there is an ISN'T and visa-versa.

I have plenty of clips that show both styles of hitting.

I just know what I'm comfortable telling my hitters, and it isn't, "keep the triangle".

The "box" imagery helps young hitters develop a quick, adjustable, and connected launch.

As they develop athletically, and become more comfortable, development evolves into personal nuances of their own athleticism.


Perfect example of where you are missing it:

Little guy on left with lead arm extension and bat drag, Pro on right with out either:



You just haven't looked at the video. Do that and you'll understand it. Get after it.

Let me know on the comparison. Your avoiding it for some reason.

[FiveFrameSwing]

PCR always pulls up this little guy or the little guy from the Dominican (or wherever) as their poster children for bat drag--If they would not let the back hand "supinate prematurely" as Yeager says, then they would be in great shape---heck as the Dominican got stronger he probably fixed it naturally and is playing pro ball somewhere.

I'm still in a bit of shock that people are promoting "maintain the box" for the purpose of curing "bat drag".





Either that or a coach got a hold of him, took away his natural movement and told him to just turn...

Now you've got me laughing out loud again.

[4for4]

The video you showed was that of an inside pitch in which the batter was behind on. Yeager explains in his DVD that this is a case of the hitter needing to make an adjustment, and had his timing been correct then the adjustment would not have been necessary.

I know you don't agree with what I just wrote above, but it is what I believe and it is what Yeager documents in his DVD.

I explained it a few times to you. We disagree. I'm okay with that and I still respect you as a knowledgable person despite that I differ in opinion with you on certain areas.

You can't just keep running around saying this lead arm thing and parroting Yeager when vidoe shows what's happening on inside and outside pitches. All these balls were hit out. I've got tons more -- doubles, triples, dingers. I'd have to review again what Yeager says, but as you relay it, it's wrong and the video supports this view. You can't on one hand say that video evidence is your standard and then ignore the evidence when it doesn't support what you current guru says, as you relay it. That's not helpful to the discussion and it doesn't follow the rules of rational discussion, IMO.

[Chris O'Leary]

PCR always pulls up this little guy or the little guy from the Dominican (or wherever) as their poster children for bat drag--If they would not let the back hand "supinate prematurely" as Yeager says, then they would be in great shape---heck as the Dominican got stronger he probably fixed it naturally and is playing pro ball somewhere...Either that or a coach got a hold of him, took away his natural movement and told him to just turn...

The premature supination is the result of the bat drag (and the position of the back elbow relative to the hands), not the other way around.

[BoardMember]

Believe me, I've had more exchanges with Richard then I care to remember.


but you’d have to be willing to endure some pain to get it out of him.

Life's too short 5.........

[mbs]

The premature supination is the result of the bat drag (and the position of the back elbow relative to the hands), not the other way around.

No it is not.....

[BoardMember]

The premature supination is the result of the bat drag (and the position of the back elbow relative to the hands), not the other way around.

Hmmm....

Not sure I agree with this Chris......

I cure bat drag in one move. Start with relaxed elbow and raise it during the forward stride.

[FiveFrameSwing]

You can't just keep running around saying this lead arm thing and parroting Yeager when vidoe shows what's happening on inside and outside pitches. All these balls were hit out. I've got tons more -- doubles, triples, dingers. I'd have to review again what Yeager says, but as you relay it, it's wrong and the video supports this view. You can't on one hand say that video evidence is your standard and then ignore the evidence when it doesn't support what you current guru says, as you relay it. That's not helpful to the discussion and it doesn't follow the rules of rational discussion, IMO.

You've only shown me one video in which the angle of the lead arm was reduced as the batter rotated into contact. I explained that this batter was behind and needed to make an adjustment.

Do you have any video of MLB players hitting pitches on the outside of the plate in which they reduced the angle in their lead arm? I haven't seen such a video.

[4for4]

I'm impressed that Steve is teaching upper body torque ... and I don't say that tongue-in-cheek. One of my biggest complaints with Steve's teachings is the lack of upper body torque. I think once he makes this more public that he'll find a bigger following.

I'm very surprised that he is teaching early hand action. I didn't see Steve getting to that for several more years.

Englishbey has a huge following, they are just more circumspect then others.

But you are seeing what Steve teaches. Now why not go through the exercise of the comparison and we can see what you can get out it. It may help me better understand where you are coming from. What say you?

And Steve doesn't refer to it as hand action or body torque, although he does refer to the torsion of the lower and upper body working between the torso. Loading/unloading, twisting/untwisting, accelerating/decelerating segments and the timing and coordination of such.

[4for4]

PCR always pulls up this little guy or the little guy from the Dominican (or wherever) as their poster children for bat drag--If they would not let the back hand "supinate prematurely" as Yeager says, then they would be in great shape---heck as the Dominican got stronger he probably fixed it naturally and is playing pro ball somewhere...Either that or a coach got a hold of him, took away his natural movement and told him to just turn...

More likely they got a hold of Yeager's back elbow function dvd. He demonstrates what that little guy is doing.

[4for4]

You've only shown me one video in which the angle of the lead arm was reduced as the batter rotated into contact. I explained that this batter was behind and needed to make an adjustment.

Do you have any video of MLB players hitting pitches on the outside of the plate in which they reduced the angle in their lead arm? I haven't seen such a video.

No, look again, I showed you more than 1.

[FiveFrameSwing]

Believe me, I've had more exchanges with Richard then I care to remember.



Life's too short 5.........

I hear you BM.

[FiveFrameSwing]

The premature supination is the result of the bat drag (and the position of the back elbow relative to the hands), not the other way around.

He wrote 'If they would not let the back hand "supinate prematurely"'

[mbs]

fo fo fo--where is that comparison?????


fo fo fo:
You can't on one hand say that video evidence is your standard and then ignore the evidence when it doesn't support what you current guru says, as you relay it.

As far as what Yeager says: he attributes the increasing angle in the lead arm to a COMBINATION of the hands reaching back and pushing (shifting) the body's "center of mass" away from the hands...This is NOT a locked out position , as he states and shows in his research. The important thing is that the movement is relaxed...

*BOX people teach an unnatural tension in the lead arm--this disrupts the stretch-reflex and momentum transfer...

[FiveFrameSwing]

I cure bat drag in one move. Start with relaxed elbow and raise it during the forward stride.

Yes, this works ... ... ... but I believe MBS is correct. If you rotate the top hand prematurely (think palm now pointing towards the sky) then conditions are favorable for bat drag.

[BoardMember]

*BOX people teach an unnatural tension in the lead arm--this disrupts the stretch-reflex and momentum transfer...

We do????

I beg to differ.........:p

[Steve Englishbey]

It contains both upper body torque and early hand action ... which are two items that I don't believe you teach..

Chris /megs /5 frame ---and I suspect a host of other names you use to offer your "expertise" at various websites as to "how the body works "----your use of the term term "upper body torque "can be filed into the"nonsense" catagory.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torque:


"In physics, torque (or often called a moment) can informally be thought of as "rotational force" or "angular force" which causes a change in rotational motion. This force is defined by linear force multiplied by a radius."

http://www.physics247.com/physics-help/torque.shtml


[QUOTE]"Torque is rotational force or the ability to overcome resistance to rotation. It is the cross product of force and radius. Torque is the amount of force applied tangentially to a circle. "

Since ALL hitters use the muscle system to create rotational force[torque],and since ALL humans are subject to resisitive and reactive forces that are inherent to creating angular forces ,your use of "upper body torque "has no meaning .

.

And I have heard you repeatedly use terms----the lastest of which is your confusion as to what the terms "extension" actually means----that is simply a reflection of your lack of understanding as regards even basic functional anatomy [let alone the dynamics involved in a complex multi-joint ballistic activity like swinging a bat ].

This being the case you are not soon likely to fully understand as to how what follows here relates to what I teach.Simply put,you cannot "connect the dots."But the good news for you is that I do not think you really care anyway.Based on numerous things you have written, suffice it to say that I think your true motivation lies elewhere.

As regards what I teach and how I understand "how the body works "I will REPEAT what I said in another thread here ;

[QUOTE]" Quote:
[B]"I do NOT make a distinction between the upper body and the lower body.

And the reason why is pretty simple and straightforward:

1]Since I believe that ,from a functional anatomy standpoint ,the pelvic region essentially links the entire body's movement capabilities by virtue of the the 35 or so muscles that originate in the pelvic region, and are inserted [connected ] to distal attachments eg .,[latissimus attached at the humerous ,adductor muscles attached at the femur etc et al];

2]And since from a functional anatomy standpoint ,these "proximal to distal connections" are further tied together by connective tissue that is wrapped in "spirals" thru out the body ,I do NOT think or teach ,in terms of "upper /lower body."

I view body and how its organized ,and the mind and how it functions in terms of goal -directed behavior ,is INSEPARBLE.

Its "one thing [the body] ,organized ,to do one thing " [mind /body executing the goal].

From both a funtional anatomy and motor control/motor learning perspective,this is how the "the system" is designed and motivated .

And thus in terms of "what ,why and how I teach " ----in terms of one of THE if not THE guiding principles in terms of what ,why ,how ,I teach is based on "seeing" and understanding the mind and body as connected .

Thus the idea of a "connected rotation."

Thus the idea that turning the body AND creating an efficient swingapth are inseparable .

Thus the idea that creating a body posture [this includes the bat to arm to shoulder link] to create a "rotational posture " that allows for a swingpath that is quick and efficient ,necessarily includes the upper /lower body .Because the "upper/lower body" is connected thru the pelvic region.And the mind/body is organized to do "one thing " .In the case of hitting that "one thing "is of course to find and ball in space and hit it .

Thus the idea that it "aint just about the hip joints." Its about the entire trunk being utilized[shoulders included] to create effective movement.

And since the bat and arms are connected to the trunk via the shoulder complex,when you talk about the the arms and the swing path [the upper body] ,you cannot separate the hands bat and arms from the trunk."

And in another post here:

[QUOTE] "Whether it is a gymnist, polevaulter, baseball pitcher ,or one of the dancers in "Dancing with the Stars,etc ,etal ,I do not think in terms of "separation ."

All of the above---elite performers--- are similar in the sense that ALL elite performers are examples of the execution of a a very high degree of MOTOR CONTROL.

And are examples of a high degree of OPTIMIZATION OF MOVEMENT CAPABILITY.

And thus from my perspective ,what "separates" elite level hitters and pitchers from everyone else ,has to do with how they have learned to optimize the their movement parameters . So as to optimize the creation and transfer of momentum from body to implement.

[Meaning here that I do not think the term "separation "---as it is typically used -- really explains well the differences between elite hitters /pitchers .And everyone else.

I would also add here this:EVERYONE creates "separation "in the sense that NO HUMAN is capable of moving all body parts simultaneously and at the idenical rates of acceleration.And most young hitters create a good deal of "separation "by opening the body too much too soon ----while "leaving the bat behind "in the form of bat drag.

I see this kind of "separation "all the time as regards young hitters.This IS "separation " --it DOES fit within the defintion of separation as segmental spacio-temporal differences .]

[B]Thus from my perspective ,I dont "See" elite hitters and pitchers "creating separation."

I see them as LOADING AND UNLOADING in optimal or near optimal manner."





How does this relate to Scotty above ?And essentially any hitter I work with ?

Well ,broadly speaking its real simple :

I try to help hitters better understand as to how LOAD AND UNLOAD the body more effectively.

I try to provide way inwhich they can PRACTICE so as to DEVELOP a more effective capbility to -----load and unload the body .

So as to better DEVELOP the capacity to create "a connected rotation."

From my perspective ,this ability to create a "connected rotation "is what really separates the really good hitters from everyone else[ speaking here in terms of the kind of highly coordinated movement that they are creating].

It should also be understood that REALLY understanding what "a connected rotation "is ---------MY defintion of the term --will NOT be "gleaned " by the kinds of idle speculation [and worse] that comes from numerous people on this website .And this would include the likes of Megs /5 frame swing.

If one REALLY wants to know what MY definiton as what a "connected rotation " ACTUALLY MEANS-- you will have to go to my website .And/or Setpro [which is where many of the the terms and the frames of reference that I know and use came from].

In terms of what Scotty,--and others that I work with or have worked with---is doing above,I will state it like this :

It should also be understood that the ability to create a "connected rotation " is NOT per se A SINGLE TECHNIQUE.

And that being the case LEARNING HOW TO DEVELOP a better capacity to do this is A PROCESS.A developmental process by which you learn how to go about doing those things which help you to develop this potential .

And what I try to do is to help the hitter better learn what they need to do to develop this capacity.

And much of what I teach is and will be based on the motor learning concept of "backward chaining ",eg PRACTICE methods --like no-stride swinging --that are used to help DEVELOP a greater capacity to rotate the trunk around the spine.

And much of what I teach will involve PRACTICING IN in ways which address the common faults that many young hitters have ,ie inability to coodinate the trunk to rotate effectively ,tendencies to use the arms to create the swing,etc etal.

And the idea is that by engaging inthis process of ,one will LEARN how to better LOAD AND UNLOAD THE BODY more effectively .

And in which the ultimate goal is to develop an increasing ability to optimize movement so as to create a "connected rotation."

Scotty above was involved in that process [he hit with me on occasion for about 3 years].And though he most certainly not best hitter that I have ever worked with in terms of physical capabilities ,he was THE smartest[and he is one of THE smartest individuals that I have ever been around interms of understanding the swing ].And one that came a long way in terms of where he started .


steve

[mbs]

I have a lot of respect for you BM--but if you are teaching tension in the lead arm and holding that angle, then yes..

It is a shortcut and you are reducing lag and stretch, as well as disrupting the natural pattern...Proper hand position will prevent bat drag and lock out...

[BoardMember]

You've only shown me one video in which the angle of the lead arm was reduced as the batter rotated into contact. I explained that this batter was behind and needed to make an adjustment.

Like this? I doubt its because he was behind:




Do you have any video of MLB players hitting pitches on the outside of the plate in which they reduced the angle in their lead arm? I haven't seen such a video.

5, this is a rediculous statement and you know it.........

[FiveFrameSwing]

Englishbey has a huge following, they are just more circumspect then others.

But you are seeing what Steve teaches. Now why not go through the exercise of the comparison and we can see what you can get out it. It may help me better understand where you are coming from. What say you?

And Steve doesn't refer to it as hand action or body torque, although he does refer to the torsion of the lower and upper body working between the torso. Loading/unloading, twisting/untwisting, accelerating/decelerating segments and the timing and coordination of such.

If you are acknowledging that Steve teaches upper body torque in his current teachings then I view that as a very positive move. If Steve is teaching the hand action demonstrated by that particular student, then that would surprise some folks ... including myself. I'd be interesting in hearing more on how Steve teaches that type of hand action.

Your argument about comparing students is of course not helpful to the discussion. Both of us should be comparing our students to the best MLB players. I trust that you are already doing this. I do believe you have a right to be proud of this particular student and I wish him the best.

[FiveFrameSwing]

More likely they got a hold of Yeager's back elbow function dvd. He demonstrates what that little guy is doing.

More noteworthy is that Yeager doesn't teach "maintaining the box" as a fix for the back elbow issue.

[4for4]

More noteworthy is that Yeager doesn't teach "maintaining the box" as a fix for the back elbow issue.

You apparently aren't reading well. What part of quickly linking the front arm to the energy source are you missing.

What Yeager is showing is a recipe for bat drag so it doesn't really matter that he isn't teaching the box to mitigate against it. But essentially in your words, Yeager is teaching bat drag via that DVD, but not teaching the box to fix it but he knows how to fix it? This can't be the message that Yeager wants to get out there.

[FiveFrameSwing]

.
[QUOTE]" Quote:
"I do NOT make a distinction between the upper body and the lower body.

And the reason why is pretty simple and straightforward:

1]Since I believe that ,from a functional anatomy standpoint ,the pelvic region essentially links the entire body's movement capabilities by virtue of the the 35 or so muscles that originate in the pelvic region, and are inserted [connected ] to distal attachments eg .,[latissimus attached at the humerous ,adductor muscles attached at the femur etc et al];

2]And since from a functional anatomy standpoint ,these "proximal to distal connections" are further tied together by connective tissue that is wrapped in "spirals" thru out the body ,I do NOT think or teach ,in terms of "upper /lower body."

I view body and how its organized ,and the mind and how it functions in terms of goal -directed behavior ,is INSEPARBLE.

Its "one thing [the body] ,organized [by the mind] ,to do one thing " [mind /body executing the goal].

From both a funtional anatomy and motor control/motor learning perspective,this is how the "the system" is designed and motivated .

And thus in terms of "what ,why and how I teach " ----in terms of one of THE if not THE guiding principles in terms of what ,why ,how ,I teach is based on "seeing" and understanding the mind and body as connected .

Thus the idea of a "connected rotation."

Thus the idea that turning the body AND creating an efficient swingapth are inseparable .



In your opinion, is it wrong to teach a student to first obtain proper lower body momentum mechanics, and then to later sync the upper body mechanics to this?

The reason that I ask is that I’ve seen it done successfully.

[4for4]

Your argument about comparing students is of course not helpful to the discussion. Both of us should be comparing our students to the best MLB players. I trust that you are already doing this. I do believe you have a right to be proud of this particular student and I wish him the best.

Sure it is. You keep holding yourself out there as an instructor that is showing this and that and getting immediate results and then asserting false notions regarding Englishbey. So, let's see this lead arm teaching and this other stuff that creates what you think represents a high level swing. You might teach me something. I'll help you with setting this up. OK?

[mbs]

fo fo fo--

Where are your students????

I'll help you set it up.....

[FiveFrameSwing]

.
It should also be understood that REALLY understanding what "a connected rotation "is ---------MY defintion of the term --will NOT be "gleaned " by the kinds of idle speculation [and worse] that comes from numerous people on this website .And this would include the likes of Megs /5 frame swing.


There are several folks that seem to be confused by your terminology of connected rotation. In your first DVD you gave an example, several times, in which you aligned your hips/shoulders/hands and recommended a connected rotation. There was no upper body torque (and I think you know what I imply by that). Your student is doing something very different. There seems to be a disconnect (pun intended).

It is possible that we are not understanding your first DVD correctly, and if so, then you are owed an apology. Perhaps you would take the time to better explain your use of the term connected rotation.

[BoardMember]

I have a lot of respect for you BM--but if you are teaching tension in the lead arm and holding that angle, then yes..

It is a shortcut and you are reducing lag and stretch, as well as disrupting the natural pattern...

If this ain't "box maintainence" I don't know what is.

So is this tension or isn't it?




Proper hand position will prevent bat drag...

So you are saying that "proper hand position" will prevent early suprination?

Sorry, MBS I don't agree. Proper arm action does, but hand position has little to do with preventing drag IMO........

[FiveFrameSwing]

Like this? I doubt its because he was behind:





I keep viewing this video and I’m not seeing the angle in the lead angle being reduced. In your last frame what do you estimate the angle is … something like 140-degrees? It looks pretty constant from the start of the swing up to the point where you stopped the video.

[FiveFrameSwing]

What Yeager is showing is a recipe for bat drag so it doesn't really matter that he isn't teaching the box to mitigate against it. But essentially in your words, Yeager is teaching bat drag via that DVD, but not teaching the box to fix it but he knows how to fix it? This can't be the message that Yeager wants to get out there.

Sounds like complete nonsense. My guess is that this is yet another diversion. Yeager is not teaching bat drag. He's also not teaching people to maintain a box. One does not have to maintain a box to avoid bat drag.

[mbs]

So you are saying that "proper hand position" will prevent early suprination?

Sorry, MBS I don't agree. Proper arm action does, but hand position has little to do with preventing drag IMO........

Well technically, the forearm muscles are responsible for preventing premature supination..I like your cue with the elbow, but if the forearm muscles don't work to prevent supination, then your cue won't work....

[FiveFrameSwing]

Sure it is. You keep holding yourself out there as an instructor that is showing this and that and getting immediate results and then asserting false notions regarding Englishbey. So, let's see this lead arm teaching and this other stuff that creates what you think represents a high level swing. You might teach me something. I'll help you with setting this up. OK?

No offense, but I've seen how you doctored videos in the past.

[4for4]

Sounds like complete nonsense. My guess is that this is yet another diversion. Yeager is not teaching bat lag. He's also not teaching people to maintain a box. One does not have to maintain a box to avoid bat lag.

I'm not sure why you are talking bat lag and you are talking in a circle.

His back elbow function DVD demonstrates how to do what the little guy on the left is doing:



IME. He says extend the lead arm and drive the elbow at the ball. This is what the little guy on the left is doing. I'm not throwing the baby out with the bathwater, but this particular DVD illustrates how to practice bat drag, IMO.

[4for4]

No offense, but I've seen how you doctored videos in the past.

This is an excuse and a diversion. I won't post it until you ok it as being representative of the video you've sent me. So lets get going on it!

[mbs]

He says extend the lead arm and drive the elbow at the ball. This is what the little guy on the left is doing. I'm not throwing the baby out with the bathwater, but this particular DVD illustrates how to practice bat drag, IMO.

Nope--Not if you do as he says and maintain the vertical bat and use the forearm to prevent the top hand from supinating...--He also suggests barrell loading as a way to create stretch, bat lag and maintain vertical bat (avoid drag)--but then again, you guys don't use your hands...

New PCR slogan---Look Ma-No Hands!!!!!!:applaud:

[BoardMember]

I keep viewing this video and I’m not seeing the angle in the lead angle being reduced. In your last frame what do you estimate the angle is … something like 140-degrees? It looks pretty constant from the start of the swing up to the point where you stopped the video.

Well, 140 is a probably a decent guess. So is about 100 in the last frame wouldn't you say?

[FiveFrameSwing]

I'm not sure why you are talking bat lag and you are talking in a circle.

His back elbow function DVD demonstrates how to do what the little guy on the left is doing:





Are you trying to be dishonest?

The DVD that you are referring to shows how to correct an elbow issue. The elbow issue that he describes and shows how to correct is virtually the opposite of "bat drag". He shows how someone not getting to "connection" (a Don Slaught term) can properly get to "connection".

[FiveFrameSwing]

Well, 140 is a probably a decent guess. So is about 100 in the last frame wouldn't you say?



If I understand your point, you are saying that he gains extension during his forward weight shift, but the amount of extension into contact is used to make an adjustment to the ball. Would that be a correct assessment of your opinion?

[FiveFrameSwing]

This is an excuse and a diversion. I won't post it until you ok it as being representative of the video you've sent me. So lets get going on it!

Not happening 4. You haven't built that level of trust with me.

As I said earlier, the correct thing to do is to compare your students to that of the best MLB swings.

Again, you have good reason to be proud. It's good to see an Englishbey student demonstrating upper body torque and early hand action.

[FiveFrameSwing]

Well, 140 is a probably a decent guess. So is about 100 in the last frame wouldn't you say?



Part of the difficulty I'm having with this analysis is that the lines you've drawn are being viewed from a different vantage point. The first angle you drew is being viewed head on ... or in 1 dimension. The second angle must be viewed in 2 dimensions.

[mbs]

BM-

I've got plenty of clips of Pujols at much higher degree of extension--say 160+ deg..

So no - I don't think pros try to maintain the box or hold a sharp anle in the lead arm...I believe they get the hands/arms back away from the body and make adjustments in the lead arm as needed, but if the swing is initially well timed and positioned, he will not increase the bend(flex) the elbow as he approaches contact...that makes no sense on so many levels...

[BoardMember]

Part of the difficulty I'm having with this analysis is that the lines you've drawn are being viewed from a different vantage point. The first angle you drew is being viewed head on ... or in 1 dimension. The second angle must be viewed in 2 dimensions.

Fair enough. I see a decrease........

[4for4]

Are you trying to be dishonest?

The DVD that you are referring to shows how to correct an elbow issue. The elbow issue that he describes and shows how to correct is virtually the opposite of "bat drag". He shows how someone not getting to "connection" (a Don Slaught term) can properly get to "connection".

Are you?

Yeager says the only movement with the hitters arm would be to take back elbow towards the ball and that it moves it in front of the hands.

He also says to complete the stride and take the elbow to the ball.

In addition he says attack the ball with the back elbow and take the mental emphasis off the hands. He also wants the hands to stay behind the rotation of the shoulders, but that doesn't really happen in high levels swings.

Anyway, he describes a drill to create bat drag in your swing like what the little guy on the left is doing, IMO.

[4for4]

Not happening 4. You haven't built that level of trust with me.



I'm not looking for your trust. Really, it's not what 's important to me. That's why I said you would be in charge of validating the synched clip before posting it. You are diverting. Let's get this done. I want to see if I'm missing something. It will be a good learning opportunity to see your student synched to Englishbey's student.

[mbs]

He describes a drill to create bat drag in your swing like what the little guy on the left is doing, IMO.

Nope--Yeager demonstrates a drill that allows the elbow to slot while preventing top hand supination (drag)...i.e. taking the elbow to the ball while maintaining the vertical bat--the hand must not supinate when the elbow slots....

[BoardMember]

BM- ................and make adjustments in the lead arm as needed

Correct..........


but if the swing is initially well timed and positioned, he will not increase the bend(flex) the elbow as he approaches contact...

What percentage of the time do you think this happens.......?

I would venture to say this is the exception not the rule........

[FiveFrameSwing]

I'm not looking for your trust. Really, it's not what 's important to me. That's why I said you would be in charge of validating the synched clip before posting it. You are diverting. Let's get this done. I want to see if I'm missing something. It will be a good learning opportunity to see your student synched to Englishbey's student.

You want to see if you are missing something?

I think you should take another look at Yeager's DVD. You got it virtually 100% backwards with respect to the back elbow issue that he was correcting. It isn't clear to me why you wrote what you wrote. It wasn't even remotely close to truthful.

[4for4]

You want to see if you are missing something?

I think you should take another look at Yeager's DVD. You got it virtually 100% backwards with respect to the back elbow issue that he was correcting. It isn't clear to me why you wrote what you wrote. It wasn't even remotely close to truthful.

Nice try Chris. Those are his words as he shows the drill, not mine. Watch it again and lets be honest the next time you post on the subject.

Lets get the comparison done.

[Encinitas]

GC, I can tell you LClifton doesn't teach a triangle, or that lead arm extension "must be maintained".

The thread that Encinitas pointed to on HSBBW with loser-cannon regarding the "triangle" turned into a huge pissing match and was completely useless IMO....:thumbsdown:

BM that thread at HSBBW was just getting started at the time, and I only posted it so Chris could look at some other triangle theory. Heck this thread had just gotten started for that matter. I had no idea this sucker would take on a life of it's own.

I am with Lclifton on this issue. I am not totally comfortable with teaching the triangle concept so I don't bother with it and I don't mention maintaining lead arm extension. Doesn't mean I disagree with teach I can see what's he's talking about in his videos, but I question whether I can really use it as a teaching point so I don't bother.

[mbs]

I said well timed and positioned-not perfectly--meaning that the better the timing--the less the hitter will increase flexion-----I would definitely say that increasing flexion happens in the great MINORITY of swings.....If the clips I have are any indication.....

[FiveFrameSwing]

Fair enough. I see a decrease........

I see why you say that, and I acknowledge that you may be correct.

The conclusion of course would be that the hitter would alter the flexion in his lead arm for purposes of making an adjustment.

This has been an interesting discussion.

Thank you BM.

[mbs]

fo fo fo--

If you have seen the DVD--you can see that Barfield could not slot without supinating...and as I said
Yeager demonstrates a drill that allows the elbow to slot while preventing top hand supination (drag)...i.e. taking the elbow to the ball while maintaining the vertical bat--the hand must not supinate when the elbow slots....

But hey keep holding on and turning---Your swings are like your stories--spin-spin-spin...

[BoardMember]

Gotcha.........


I am with Lclifton on this issue. I am not totally comfortable with teaching the triangle concept so I don't bother with it and I don't mention maintaining lead arm extension. Doesn't mean I disagree with teach I can see what's he's talking about in his videos, but I question whether I can really use it as a teaching point so I don't bother.

[BoardMember]

I said well timed and positioned-not perfectly--meaning that the better the timing--the less the hitter will increase flexion-----I would definitely say that increasing flexion happens in the great MINORITY of swings.....If the clips I have are any indication.....

No arguement........

[4for4]

fo fo fo--

If you have seen the DVD--you can see that Barfield could not slot without supinating...and as I said


The only spin here is what you just wrote. In the drill, his bat is not vertical, but at a 45 degree angle. And the rest of what I posted are his words, not mine. It's a drill that teaches you how to do what the little guy on the left is doing, IMO:

[BoardMember]

I see why you say that, and I acknowledge that you may be correct.

The conclusion of course would be that the hitter would alter the flexion in his lead arm for purposes of making an adjustment.

Which has been my point from day one regarding lead arm extension........


This has been an interesting discussion.

Thank you BM.

I agree......

[mbs]

In the drill, his bat is not vertical, but at a 45 degree angle. And the rest of what I posted are his words, not mine. It's a drill that teaches you how to do what the little guy on the left is doing, IMO

Then you are blind...Heck he does the drill with a clip of Reggie Jackson right next to him....45 degree angle?? are you crazy--The bat is perpendicular to the ground....Can you at least see Barfield cannot slot without supinating?????


again:
Yeager demonstrates a drill that allows the elbow to slot while preventing top hand supination (drag)...i.e. taking the elbow to the ball while maintaining the vertical bat--the hand must not supinate when the elbow slots....

[mbs]

BM-

With all due respect, I believe you are making a mistake to ask the player to maintain a sharp angle in the lead arm...The Kinetic link will suffer...

[4for4]

Then you are blind...Heck he does the drill with a clip of Reggie Jackson right next to him....45 degree angle?? are you crazy--The bat is perpendicular to the ground....Can you at least see Barfield cannot slot without supinating?????


again:

Are we talking the same video? Reggie's there with demo guy wearing a dark shirt, light pants and black shoes. The drill starts with Soriano and ends with Reggie. His comments that I quoted are during that demo. Not only is his bat not perpendicular to the ground, neither is Reggie's (Reggies is at the start of his swing) when he demos driving the back elbow to the ball which ends with a red arrow pointing from the elbow to the ball on the tee.

[mbs]

perpendicular to the ground-looking chest on-- not from behind the catcher...

i.e. no supination--no bat drag----the elbow slots and the top hand does not supinate.--for demo and Reggie...


again:

Yeager demonstrates a drill that allows the elbow to slot while preventing top hand supination (drag)...i.e. taking the elbow to the ball while maintaining the vertical bat--the hand must not supinate when the elbow slots....


Can you at least see Barfield could not slot without supinating?????

[4for4]

Look, I'm not here to bash Chris Yeager. I have reservations over that particular drill on that particular demo at that particular part of the DVD.

It's late now, but I'll look at this again later and revisit.


perpendicular to the ground-looking chest on-- not from behind the catcher...

i.e. no supination--no bat drag----the elbow slots and the top hand does not supinate.--for demo and Reggie...


again:



Can you at least see Barfield could not slot without supinating?????

[BoardMember]

BM-
With all due respect, I believe you are making a mistake to ask the player to maintain a sharp angle in the lead arm...The Kinetic link will suffer...

MBS, are you purposely setting up this strawman? If you are, don't. Your statement above has never come from my mouth (keyboard).

I advocate lead arm extension. Did you not read the thread with SB regarding this? You know, the one where he says the hands move back just not by way of the arms? LOL! You know, the thing he says happens from "the transfer"? LOL

However, maintaining an amount of flexsion in the extension is an absolute. Period.....to allow for adjustment.

THIS HAS ALWAYS BEEN MY STANCE IN EVERY THREAD regarding this subject.

I also believe (see) that with this flexsion (that varies greatly from hitter to hitter), a box that is maintained until the hands release from the shoulder.

Video (and experience) is on my side regarding this.......It's not an arguing point IMO......;)

[mbs]

Well then I think we are saying the same thing--to extend without locking out---

I did see some of the SB thread and created some confusion on how you were reconciling the box with extension...By definition if you are extending, the box is not "maintained"...The angles between those joints should not hold a box geometry--there is a constant state of flux....

The point of the post was to say I don't think you should coach a player to hold an angle in the lead arm or resist extension during weight shift...Limiting extension would have ruined most of the games best swings...

Stay relaxed--resist top-hand supination and.......

don't coach a tense overly-flexed lead arm...It will reduce stretch reflex and whip effect...

[Drill]

No matter how you get to the point of contact it comes down to timing and bat speed. Stride, no stride keeping the elbow in and timing the ball. All I know that I have seen a lot of successful and differant swings by a lot of successful players young and old again, I say you can arrive at the ball many differant ways but in the end it comes down to bat speed and timing.


respectfully yours,

drill

Thank you FiveFrameSwing for your below response to my quote.

[QUOTE=FiveFrameSwing;1076712]Well, I'll credit Steve here, and say that there is also a matter of one's swing plane.


as you can see above, we can learn from every body's swing theories







Ok we can all learn from differant swing theories.


Here is my question, for the past few year I have been watching the swing faults of youth hitter on video analysis of there swing. After sitting in on the coach doing camps, analyzing these youth, there was a common swing fault. Arm baring (on at least 70% of the children videoed.) What swing theory would you use to train them.

If all you have to do to prevent arm baring is keep the rear elbow in(to the back side), wouldn't it be easiest to teach a triangle position (arm extension first), than go to the box position when the student develops more.


Which method is easier to teach in yours (alls) opinion?

It seems every body likes differant swing theories but never post what drills to get to there box or triangle positions. Which method is the easiest to teach youth if you are just looking at one swing gurus teaching.


respectfully yours,

drill

[Chris O'Leary]

Hmmm....

Not sure I agree with this Chris......

I cure bat drag in one move. Start with relaxed elbow and raise it during the forward stride.

The way he slots his elbow causes the head of the bat to lag back and drop, which causes the supination.

[Drill]

The way he slots his elbow causes the head of the bat to lag back and drop, which causes the supination.

So what drill would you do to teach him to keep his elbow in the correct slot?


drill

[Chris O'Leary]

So what drill would you do to teach him to keep his elbow in the correct slot?

I would have him focus on maintaining the relationship between his hands and his back shoulder. That means establishing Angle E at around 90 degrees and and then maintaining it through the swing (as Pete Rose does).



I would let the back elbow take care of itself.

[Drill]

I would have him focus on maintaining the relationship between his hands and his back shoulder. Establishing and then maintaining this 90 degree angle (angle E).



I would let the back elbow take care of itself.

Is the diagram above the start position of the swing for the hands position? Or a few frames past start.

If not would you tell the batter to lean the bat on his shoulder and tell him to pick it up and show him hand position from starting point("Establishing and then maintaining this 90 degree angle (angle E)."), after that its all about the timing I take it. No matter how you get there its about sequencing all the swing moves.


I agree totally with what you just said. As I talked about teaching youth and watching a coach going through youth batter with arm bars in a previous thread. At one of his advanced clinics he started talking hand position to prevent arm bars.

Thanks again for going deeper on this subject and giving the angle/diagram. This brings it all together for me to understanding how to get the rear elbow to correct position.


thanks,

drill

[BoardMember]

The way he slots his elbow causes the head of the bat to lag back and drop, which causes the supination.

So basically which came first, the chicken or the egg......:crazy

[Jake Patterson]

4 for 4, can you put Steve's recent videos up here. He told me that he had been working on his swing recently. I think that it would only be fair if Steve's recent video was up, since Steve does all of his ideas himself... he's his own poster child in a way. :crossfingers::bowdown:

Go, Steve would be the first to tell you that at his age swinging like a pro is difficult. He simply tests what he believes. The same way Richard, Jim Booth and others have in the past. I tell my players watch what I do then imagine me doing it 20 years ago...

Watch what they are trying to demonstrate versus trying to compare it against the best.

At 52 my body just doesn't work they way it did when I was 25.

[FiveFrameSwing]

Which has been my point from day one regarding lead arm extension........


BoardMember, thank you for the discussion.

I'm inclined to believe that their should be a "goal" of maintaining the extension in the lead arm that is obtained during the forward weight shift, but that adjustments in the angle of the lead arm may be necessary to correct for imperfections in timing.

I do see contact on the inside of the plate with both a reduction in the lead arm angle and with no reduction in the lead arm angle. My belief here is one of needing to make an adjustment for timing purposes.

I'm certainly not an advocate of the "maintaining the triangle" approach, for reasons that you have described.

I'm inclined not to return to teaching "maintaining the box" as my prior experience is that it curbed both lead arm extension and the creation of upper body torque. However, that may have been a weakness in how I instructed that.

I do see the "box" changing, but perhaps this is analogous to the lead arm angle needing to be adjusted for purposes of late adjustment.

Greatly appreciate your input here, and as always I respect your demeanor in the search for truth.

[FiveFrameSwing]

Ok we can all learn from differant swing theories.


Here is my question, for the past few year I have been watching the swing faults of youth hitter on video analysis of there swing. After sitting in on the coach doing camps, analyzing these youth, there was a common swing fault. Arm baring (on at least 70% of the children videoed.) What swing theory would you use to train them.

If all you have to do to prevent arm baring is keep the rear elbow in(to the back side), wouldn't it be easiest to teach a triangle position (arm extension first), than go to the box position when the student develops more.



Donny wrote the following with respect to "Stopping the Bar Arm".


Stopping the Bar Arm

· You cannot stop the bar arm without finding a trigger replacement for it.
· The bar arm is a bad trigger but gets ingrained into the batter’s loading pattern.
· We have had success changing the barrel set to the helmet splitting slot or the 90 slot and changing the trigger to “just than hands” tipping the barrel to the pitcher or the opposite field gap at the first move.
· Tipping the barrel (loading the hands only) as the hips coil vs. extending the lead arm is an acceptable fix.
· This new first move is a vast improvement in mechanics and physics

Bar arm is early lead arm extension. The early extension of the lead arm creates a long swing radius with no torque in the midsection and a slow powerless swing. Lead arm extension should occur during the stride by hip/shoulder spatial separation. The rear elbow moving “up and in” as the hips open should extend the arm naturally.

[BoardMember]

Well then I think we are saying the same thing--to extend without locking out---

I did see some of the SB thread and created some confusion on how you were reconciling the box with extension...By definition if you are extending, the box is not "maintained"...The angles between those joints should not hold a box geometry--there is a constant state of flux....


MBS and 5, here it is in a nut shell:

First of all, like I said in a previous post regarding this issue, "Boxes" come in all shapes and sizes.

They really have no specific geometric shape in 2 dimensions except to be flat with 4 sides. Any 4 sides, at any degree of angle.

To me, box maintainence IS required to prevent arm bar.

Arm bar (along with drag) is the number one swing flaw I see in youth hitters over my 25 years of teaching hitting.

Lead arm extension, done correctly without bar, does not eliminate the box:



IF you've worked with younger hitters at all, you realizie that the first thing they want to do is "extend" the lead arm back to power the swing.

IF you insist on Box Maintainence during this move (and until the hands leave the shoulders), you allow lead arm extension to happen naturally, while PREVENTING arm bar.

Box maintainence also CAN serve to mitigate other flaws as well, namely:

Casting, Parallel extension into contact (early straighten of the rear arm), Early Disconnection and more.

You can ridicule the concept all you want. IT WORKS. And it doesn't prevent students from their persuit of a high level pattern. It is doesn't prevent the stretch reflex if you understand A BOX IS NOT A SQUARE.

There are MLB swings showing Box Maintainence from Load to Contact, as well as load to release.

The bottom line is IT IS THERE to some degree, ALWAYS.

Even on the most "extended" hitters, as noted above.....:thumbsup:

[JJA]

Guys,

I'm completely perplexed by all of the criticism of Steve. As you guys have seen, here's an Englishbey student:



What's so wrong with that swing that everyone is so critical? The "hands" guys should be happy because this student has the fictional "upper body torque" that so many espouse around here. Apparently Steve has managed to teach this kid how to load properly (and that's all the upper body stuff is fundamentally, simply loading) without using anatomically incorrect terms (strictly speaking the hands don't can't do anything by themselves). Overall the swing is quick and powerful. How many here can show an equivalent student? (And I hope that no one tries to compare this swing to a certain rotund student.) If all of the coaches here could produce swings like this in their students, there would be a heck of a lot more happy kids, that's for sure.

Many of you must deal with a much higher level player than most of us do. Most of the young players I get in little league and FP can't hit a garden variety fastball. Their primary problem isn't power, or lack of tip and rip, it's lack of swing quickness. You can see this in every young FP or baseball game. The big, strong pitcher getting huge K totals against young hitters who have no chance with their poor swing mechanics. Getting the kids to quicken their swing, to reduce their frame count, is the way I go to improve kids. Once the kids learn to hit the fastball, the game becomes a lot more fun and then you can start teaching other stuff, increasing power and the like. But make no mistake, if you can't hit a fastball you aren't going to have fun, and if you don't have fun you won't stay in the game long.

Maintaining the box can be very useful for beginning students to learn the feeling of a connected swing, to improve their swing quickness. Later on, you can teach the more advanced techniques like tip and rip and advanced loading techniques. As an aside, tip and rip wasn't a DMac invention. Guys like Lau have used it for many years. He just uses it on advanced students, not beginners, and he too focuses on swing quickness for beginning students.

-JJA

[Encinitas]

Also if I have free time later I will dig around but I vaguely remember Swingbuster not exactly liking the drill. It didn't mean that he didn't appreciate the overall body of work of Yeager, I just seem to recall he didn't care for that drill.

[RayR]

Guys,

I'm completely perplexed by all of the criticism of Steve. As you guys have seen, here's an Englishbey student:



What's so wrong with that swing that everyone is so critical? The "hands" guys should be happy because this student has the fictional "upper body torque" that so many espouse around here. Apparently Steve has managed to teach this kid how to load properly (and that's all the upper body stuff is fundamentally, simply loading) without using anatomically incorrect terms (strictly speaking the hands don't can't do anything by themselves). Overall the swing is quick and powerful. How many here can show an equivalent student? (And I hope that no one tries to compare this swing to a certain rotund student.) If all of the coaches here could produce swings like this in their students, there would be a heck of a lot more happy kids, that's for sure.

Many of you must deal with a much higher level player than most of us do. Most of the young players I get in little league and FP can't hit a garden variety fastball. Their primary problem isn't power, or lack of tip and rip, it's lack of swing quickness. You can see this in every young FP or baseball game. The big, strong pitcher getting huge K totals against young hitters who have no chance with their poor swing mechanics. Getting the kids to quicken their swing, to reduce their frame count, is the way I go to improve kids. Once the kids learn to hit the fastball, the game becomes a lot more fun and then you can start teaching other stuff, increasing power and the like. But make no mistake, if you can't hit a fastball you aren't going to have fun, and if you don't have fun you won't stay in the game long.

Maintaining the box can be very useful for beginning students to learn the feeling of a connected swing, to improve their swing quickness. Later on, you can teach the more advanced techniques like tip and rip and advanced loading techniques. As an aside, tip and rip wasn't a DMac invention. Guys like Lau have used it for many years. He just uses it on advanced students, not beginners, and he too focuses on swing quickness for beginning students.

-JJA

Makes a lot of sense to me.

Most of these guys are obviously working with Bonds, Pujols, and Griffey.

I have HS hitters on down. Quicken the swing is the paramount goal for ALL of them.

[FiveFrameSwing]

Makes a lot of sense to me.

Most of these guys are obviously working with Bonds, Pujols, and Griffey.

I have HS hitters on down. Quicken the swing is the paramount goal for ALL of them.

I think everyone here shares the appreciation of seeing a player improve and the sharing of ideas to see that happen.

While I'm not convinced that teaching box maintenance achieves the goals of a quicker swing, I do appreciate learning why advocates of it support the approach.

I especially appreciate how BoardMember supports both box maintenance and lead arm extension. He's found a way to teach box maintenance without curbing lead arm extension. Sounds potentially powerful and I'm interested in learning more about what he's doing.

[RayR]

I think everyone here shares the appreciation of seeing a player improve and the sharing of ideas to see that happen.

While I'm not convinced that teaching box maintenance achieves the goals of a quicker swing, I do appreciate learning why advocates of it support the approach.

I especially appreciate how BoardMember supports both box maintenance and lead arm extension. He's found a way to teach box maintenance without curbing lead arm extension. Sounds potentially powerful and I'm interested in learning more about what he's doing.

OK, but first you need to replace the inefficient way of moving the bat to the ball. And going from arm bars to lead arm extension is not enough of a fundamental change IMO. Too easy to revert back.

And I've seen some pretty good swings that take the box (connected rotation) too far, but still hit the heck out of the ball. It's part of the learning curve. For them learning how to unhinge into contact is the next step (Would this be the extension that you are talking about?). But, these guys would be considered in the advanced class.

Gotta walk before you run.

[Drill]

Guys,

I'm completely perplexed by all of the criticism of Steve. As you guys have seen, here's an Englishbey student:



What's so wrong with that swing that everyone is so critical? The "hands" guys should be happy because this student has the fictional "upper body torque" that so many espouse around here. Apparently Steve has managed to teach this kid how to load properly (and that's all the upper body stuff is fundamentally, simply loading) without using anatomically incorrect terms (strictly speaking the hands don't can't do anything by themselves). Overall the swing is quick and powerful. How many here can show an equivalent student? (And I hope that no one tries to compare this swing to a certain rotund student.) If all of the coaches here could produce swings like this in their students, there would be a heck of a lot more happy kids, that's for sure.

Many of you must deal with a much higher level player than most of us do. Most of the young players I get in little league and FP can't hit a garden variety fastball. Their primary problem isn't power, or lack of tip and rip, it's lack of swing quickness. You can see this in every young FP or baseball game. The big, strong pitcher getting huge K totals against young hitters who have no chance with their poor swing mechanics. Getting the kids to quicken their swing, to reduce their frame count, is the way I go to improve kids. Once the kids learn to hit the fastball, the game becomes a lot more fun and then you can start teaching other stuff, increasing power and the like. But make no mistake, if you can't hit a fastball you aren't going to have fun, and if you don't have fun you won't stay in the game long.

Maintaining the box can be very useful for beginning students to learn the feeling of a connected swing, to improve their swing quickness. Later on, you can teach the more advanced techniques like tip and rip and advanced loading techniques. As an aside, tip and rip wasn't a DMac invention. Guys like Lau have used it for many years. He just uses it on advanced students, not beginners, and he too focuses on swing quickness for beginning students.

-JJA



Agree about quickness, I have experienced many ways to achieve quickness in the swing through some of my sons swing coach's. The one coach who let me sit in on his swing analyst sessions talked a lot about hands and proper position so you did not have to chase the ball around every where. Another words he taught put the bat on your shoulders and pick the bat up and that is where your starting hand position should be. He also said not to take or have your hands back to far because it slows the swing down. Not to have your hands to high or low or to far away or close to the body will slow the swing down because of the time it takes to get the bat back in proper position in time with the body moves.

I may be wrong but it seem that a good quick swing starts with good hand position at starting and making sure you don't cause the swing to fall behind with improper loading of the hands.


thanks,

drill

[JJA]

Again, some of the people here must be dealing with a different class of kid then I deal with regularly. In contrast to what a lot of people post, kids today do emulate the stars. I've seen gobs of kids that try to cock the bat like Sheffield, Bonds and Sosa. And they get K'd regularly because at that particular age they aren't capable of such complex load movements. For almost all of the beginners I try to get their bat much closer to the initial launch position, and start from there. The kids are shocked at how much quicker their swings are then before. They are much more capable of hitting the best fastball now. The results are almost instantaneously better, far, far quicker. And now suddenly their K's start coming way down.

But don't try to read too much into this. I'm not advocating "dead" hands for the finished product. But kids at 8-12 are far from being finished. My goal is to make the swing as quick as possible at these early ages, and once their swings are efficient (5 frames or less), you can then start adding additional features like tip and rip to increase power. But I don't want the kids I teach to be overpowered by fastballs. I want them to hit the best fastball from the best pitchers, and then go from there. It's been a very successful formula for me.

Of course there are lots of ways to get to a finished product, and if people think tip and rip at 5 years old is the way to go, great. But to belittle methods that focus on swing quickness first is disingeneous at best. And no amount of arguing with those who have had success with many students will change opinions. I know through much experience that focusing on swing quickness creates more fun for the kids and keeps them in the game. I'm extremely proud that every kid I have ever coached in a league has come back and played the next year. Not one in either baseball or FP has quit the next year. And that's what it is all about. Keeping the kids in the game. DMac once said that the sign of a good youth coach is one who can get the mediocre athlete onto the high school team. With that measure, I'm very proud to say I'm a good youth coach.

-JJA

[JJA]

Guys,

To make this clearer, here are two typical players that come my way each spring. One is a 10U FP player and the other a 12 year old little leaguer. These are videos of them at the first practice, before I've done anything with them.





Both players are now strong players, the first one of the finest U12's we've got, the other plays on the varsity high school team. The boy was nicknamed the "lumberjack" for his obvious chopping action. I was told his swing was unfixable, that every great coach in the league had tried and failed.

For you armchair instructors out there, please don't tell me that either of these players problems will be solved by tip and rip or by adding fictional upper body torque. That notion is ludicrous. These players don't have the slightest idea how to swing a baseball bat. Notions like using the box to help them understand what a connected swing feels like is what they need. They're beginners, not DMac's son who was the cleanup hitter on a Pac10 powerhouse school (UCLA) trying to make it to the big show. The differences between the two are obvious. The gal above does not need the same instruction as DMac's son.

This is what the rank and file coach out there like me deals with every spring. Every now and then a very fine player with decent mechanics show up, but that is rare. I get 10 of the above type player at least for every great player. Getting this type of player to hit a quality fastball is a challenge. These two players are going to make their high school team (one already is one varsity). So don't give me lectures that frame count isn't important. Neither of these could hit if their swing wasn't as efficient as possible. They're simply not good enough athletes to succeed without efficient mechanics.

-JJA

[FiveFrameSwing]

I may be wrong but it seem that a good quick swing starts with good hand position at starting and making sure you don't cause the swing to fall behind with improper loading of the hands.


At this mornings hitting instruction I had 7 students. The HS varsity coach asked me to place a point of emphasis on early bat speed during this mornings instruction and sent me the photo below (from batspeed.com) to explain what he wanted taught.

I set up a station in which the exit speed of the ball was measured with a radar gun. I know this isn't perfect, but the intent of the hitting station was to give the kids quick feedback on the effectiveness of their swing.

Three of the kids started today's instruction swinging the bat as shown in the photo on the left. After demonstrating early bat speed one of these three kids picked up 5mph in ball exit speed and the other two picked up 6mph in ball exit speed.

These kids were geniunely excited.

It is unfortunate that Richard's personality is the way it is. He is likely onto something.

[FiveFrameSwing]

Again, some of the people here must be dealing with a different class of kid then I deal with regularly. In contrast to what a lot of people post, kids today do emulate the stars. I've seen gobs of kids that try to cock the bat like Sheffield, Bonds and Sosa. And they get K'd regularly because at that particular age they aren't capable of such complex load movements. For almost all of the beginners I try to get their bat much closer to the initial launch position, and start from there. The kids are shocked at how much quicker their swings are then before. They are much more capable of hitting the best fastball now. The results are almost instantaneously better, far, far quicker. And now suddenly their K's start coming way down.

But don't try to read too much into this. I'm not advocating "dead" hands for the finished product. But kids at 8-12 are far from being finished. My goal is to make the swing as quick as possible at these early ages, and once their swings are efficient (5 frames or less), you can then start adding additional features like tip and rip to increase power. But I don't want the kids I teach to be overpowered by fastballs. I want them to hit the best fastball from the best pitchers, and then go from there. It's been a very successful formula for me.

Of course there are lots of ways to get to a finished product, and if people think tip and rip at 5 years old is the way to go, great. But to belittle methods that focus on swing quickness first is disingeneous at best. And no amount of arguing with those who have had success with many students will change opinions. I know through much experience that focusing on swing quickness creates more fun for the kids and keeps them in the game. I'm extremely proud that every kid I have ever coached in a league has come back and played the next year. Not one in either baseball or FP has quit the next year. And that's what it is all about. Keeping the kids in the game. DMac once said that the sign of a good youth coach is one who can get the mediocre athlete onto the high school team. With that measure, I'm very proud to say I'm a good youth coach.

-JJA


The kids I currently work with are age 13-17. Even with these kids I wouldn't advocate bat tipping until after they have mastered a 2-plane swing.

[Chris O'Leary]

Is the diagram above the start position of the swing for the hands position? Or a few frames past start.

It's the position of the hands when the shoulders start to turn.



after that its all about the timing I take it. No matter how you get there its about sequencing all the swing moves.

Yes. This puts you in a good position, but it's up to you.

[Steve Englishbey]

"Go, Steve would be the first to tell you that at his age swinging like a pro is difficult. He simply tests what he believes. The same way Richard, Jim Booth and others have in the past. I tell my players watch what I do then imagine me doing it 20 years ago...

Watch what they are trying to demonstrate versus trying to compare it against the best."


I very much agree with this LAST statement as regards what I am showing with the numerous swings that I have on my website .I have over 300 clips of me swinging .And I will pick out a few of these swings to try to show some particular aspect of the swing.Or compare two of my swings to show what are many times subtle differences in the two swings.

However,keep this post in mind from this thread here:

http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?p=825201#post825201:

And these comments from that thread wherein I explained the ACTUAL reason for the "Bonds vrs Steve "comparison :




"[....."Nyman was WRONG .Mankin was right ......living proof."

[my reply]

"Actually ,if you want "living proof" of what Paul Nyman simply described as 'PCR" ,my occasional swings off a tee are not "living proof ."

Robert Stock is the "living proof " you are really looking for here.

And I think this because I think greg stock [his dad] really understood what "PCR " was all about .

Which is that developing your potential is a PROCESS and that process needs to be informed by certain standards by which to measure you progress and development .

Either implicitly or explicitly ,the vast amount of information at Setpro and "PCR" is all about the process by which you develop and it it about the "building code" [to use Paul Nymans own words ] that overarches this process of development.

[And for those quick to jump in and offer their very superficial analysis of Robert Stock's "technique" ,I would counter that his development is not about "a technique",but about a high standard by which to judge one's movements ["builiding code"]and its about the process of "enlightened trial and error" [to quote something Greg Stock himself said .

Robert Stock has hit balls well [and not hit balls well] using a variety of "techniques", and I have no doubt that he will continue to try to find ways to optimize the manner in which he loads and unloads .

Meaning that what he did 3 yrs ago is different from what he does now ,and 3 yrs from now it may be different .It is a process . Not simply "a technique".]

The only real relevance of "my swing " compared to Bonds ,in terms of anything having to do with Setpro ,"Pcr " ,or what I try to teach and convey, is that I have and will use this "building code" ,to both understand how to analyze "my swing" .And then ,based on that analyisis , go about finding ways to improve the swing according to that "building code" standard.

And if I was REALLY interested in changing "my swing", I would understand that it would be a "process" that would involve numerous implicit and explicit
thoughts and actions that would be a function of that "buliding code" in many many ways ."


And :


"The context of this swing was that I was taking some swings and I swung about 5 times with the idea in mind of "superficially " copying bonds 's swing .[as I have said many times I have done many things in terms of swinging a bat or various implements ,in terms of "swing experiments".]

And then I ask Tim to put up these comparisons .

This was in the context of me saying that I may actually go out and spend some time trying to improve my swing .

Not because I am going back to play !!!

NO, this would be a "teaching /learning experience " that I would put on my website under the heading of "what would I do to really try to improve my swing ",how would I go about it ,how I would "think thru it" ,what kinds of "swing thoughts " would I use ,what kinds of drills , etc etc .

I actually did this about 5 years ago [on a limited basis regarding one particular aspect of the swing ] and I thought that when it warmer here ,I would try to do this kind of thing again."



And this is ,in fact what I did . Meaning over a 5 mo.time period I went out and took thousands of swings ,doing alot of different things ,taped these swings ,analyzed these swings .

And then over time started to pick out what I think was most effective ways to "get at "what I am trying to "get at."

And this is what the new dvd that I am going to make shortly will be about .

As regards THIS statement:


" Steve would be the first to tell you that at his age swinging like a pro is difficult. He simply tests what he believes. The same way Richard, Jim Booth and others have in the past. "

I will say this :

It is demonstrably the case that my swing now -----how I am using my body to swing the bat now -----is BETTER than when I played.And most certainly better compared to when I started this PROCESS OF SWING TRAINING.

And this will be readily apparent once I start to put the video out that I have yet to show .

[I do not have any video of me when I was with the Astros --but I do have a number of stills.Cant tell everything of course with stills --but they are ,or can be ,"revealing "insome ways .]

I started with a typical swing of 5 to 5and half frames [to use swing quickness as a standard].

I am now CONSISTENTLY at 3 and a half to 4 and a half frames [using footplant and /or first movement of the knob being changed towards the target].

And if you think "swing quickness "is not a "big deal"then you are incorrect.Because what underlies swing quickness is the mind /body organizing MOVEMENT AND MUSCLE ACTION in a much more effective manner .

And though I have not quantified this ,I would estimate batspeeds of around 90 mph.

Almost all the SWINGTRAINING was off a tee [I do have a cateract in one eye and this is problematic of course interms of swinging live].

I can allready hear the cries of "well Steve that doesnt have anything to do with HITTING a live pitch",etc etal.

To which I would reply "well yes and no ."

Yes ,indeed swinging live is different .

However ,as "Just the facts" stated what underlies MOST instruction ,whether it is realized explicity or not ,is "swing training ",ie how one goes about using their body to create movement that allows them to be able to hit a ball more effectively .

I ,nor any other instructor ,can get in the minds and bodies of a hitter in terms of what could be called the "action -perception coupling "process involved in finding a ball a space and "matching up " the movement that is necessary to consistently hit a live pitch well.


But what an instructor CAN do is provide information and instruction as to what might be looked at as the "underlying abilites" that underlie the swings of good hitters.And provide information as to how to go about DEVELOPING some of those underlying movement abilities.

And those undelying abilities have a good deal to do with how one organizes the body to CREATE MOVEMENT that yeilds a good combination of batspeed ,quickness and a more consistently effective swingpath.To which you then attempt to apply in the context of live pitching .

And it is these latter two statements that really represent what I think is the process that i went thru [still going thru ---I am not quite finished in terms of what I what to show and do ].

And simply put ,all of the above very much relates to how I view what instruction is really about .

steve

[FiveFrameSwing]

Guys,

To make this clearer, here are two typical players that come my way each spring. One is a 10U FP player and the other a 12 year old little leaguer. These are videos of them at the first practice, before I've done anything with them.





Both players are now strong players, the first one of the finest U12's we've got, the other plays on the varsity high school team. The boy was nicknamed the "lumberjack" for his obvious chopping action. I was told his swing was unfixable, that every great coach in the league had tried and failed.

For you armchair instructors out there, please don't tell me that either of these players problems will be solved by tip and rip or by adding fictional upper body torque. That notion is ludicrous. These players don't have the slightest idea how to swing a baseball bat. Notions like using the box to help them understand what a connected swing feels like is what they need. They're beginners, not DMac's son who was the cleanup hitter on a Pac10 powerhouse school (UCLA) trying to make it to the big show. The differences between the two are obvious. The gal above does not need the same instruction as DMac's son.

This is what the rank and file coach out there like me deals with every spring. Every now and then a very fine player with decent mechanics show up, but that is rare. I get 10 of the above type player at least for every great player. Getting this type of player to hit a quality fastball is a challenge. These two players are going to make their high school team (one already is one varsity). So don't give me lectures that frame count isn't important. Neither of these could hit if their swing wasn't as efficient as possible. They're simply not good enough athletes to succeed without efficient mechanics.

-JJA

I recall coaching kids this age. Back then I didn't have the knowledge I have now. Somehow we all got through it just fine and somehow the team always won their local league championship. Enjoy!

p.s.
I laughed about your comment regarding adding tip-n-rip. No doubt that there are many other issues to clear up before coming close to worrying about that. If you could teach these kids a simple 1-plane swing then you'll have gotten them off to a good start.

[FiveFrameSwing]

And this is ,in fact what I did . Meaning over a 5 mo.time period I went out and took thousands of swings ,doing alot of different things ,taped these swings ,analyzed these swings .

And then over time started to pick out what I think was most effective ways to "get at "what I am trying to "get at."

And this is what the new dvd that I am going to make shortly will be about .


Kudos to you Steve.

It sounds like you've been busy and have learned a lot in the process.

When do you estimate that your new DVD will be available?

[Jake Patterson]

This is what the rank and file coach out there like me deals with every spring.

Absolutely agree here...

[JJA]

Fiveframe,

But I hope you get the whole point of those clips. That's what the vast majority of us deal with every spring. Trying to teach young players connection using techniques like the box can be very effective. When you diss those techniques without understanding how and why they are effective, you do a complete disservice to the readers here who are far more likely to have swings that look like those presented than Ken Griffey Jr or DMac's son. Instead of stating that players are ignoring Steve with their upper body mechanics, a better question is to ask Steve how he teaches upper body loading which of course he does. But the answer to that question I'm afraid lies on the private side of his forum, as it should.

-JJA

[FiveFrameSwing]

Fiveframe,

But I hope you get the whole point of those clips. That's what the vast majority of us deal with every spring. Trying to teach young players connection using techniques like the box can be very effective. When you diss those techniques without understanding how and why they are effective, you do a complete disservice to the readers here who are far more likely to have swings that look like those presented than Ken Griffey Jr or DMac's son. Instead of stating that players are ignoring Steve with their upper body mechanics, a better question is to ask Steve how he teaches upper body loading which of course he does. But the answer to that question I'm afraid lies on the private side of his forum, as it should.

-JJA

Not everyone here is dealing with young kids. Some of us are working with HS kids. So we both need to be patient with each other's vantage points. In fact, I got a new kid this morning that came with an issue of bending/kneeling on their front leg into contact (think the opposite of lead-leg pushback). So I have issues to iron out as well.

I respect what you are up against. I'm not totally bought into the concept of teaching the concept of box maintenance, but I respect those that are. For me I still have the issue of when I use this that the kids tend to curb lead arm extension and the creation of upper body torque. The kids that I work with are at an age that if they don't develop such skills that they'll have a tough time competing on a relative basis.

With respect to the question you proposed for Steve, I will say that the answer didn't lie in his DVDs. I consider that information critical to teaching an elite level swing. Let's hope it is in his next DVD release.

[Chris O'Leary]

Been there, done that.

The boy doesn't have a terrible lower body action. However, it's looks like he was taught to swing level and hit down on the ball, both of which he does.

He's also fairly draggy.

[JJA]

Fiveframe,

Again, you must be dealing with better high school players than I am. I work with high schoolers (my son has a pretty darn good swing for 14) as well. The vast majority of high school kids can't hit the good fastball because their swings aren't quick enough. It isn't a power problem for most kids, it's quickness. I have yet to see a high school kid whose problem is too many fly balls to the warning track, that if he had another 5 mph of bat speed it would cure his ills. The primary problem is how to hit a good fastball, and especially a good fastball away. 80% of the kids I see, and my son is in a very strong southern California league, don't have swing mechanics that can handle the hard stuff consistently in the zone.

Now, once the kid can hit the good fastball, and has the ability to hit throughout the zone, then you can start adding from there. No arguments from me. But the vast majority of kids all the way through high school don't have a quick enough bat. But if you have a kid that has 5 frames or less and greater than 75 mph bat speed, that kid can compete on the high school level. That is the goal many of us have, and to be able to achieve that starting with swings that were posted earlier. Kids who will never be pros but can have a very successful high school career and garner the self-esteem that goes with it.

-JJA

[justthefacts]

.... was still around and looking for information to help his great great great grandson get better at swing a cricket bat and was trying to follow these posts I suspect he might say the following:

"Never in the field of human conflict was so much said by so many to so few."

The few in this case being anyone who is reading this stuff and getting anything that remotely resembles in instructional value i.e. what can be applied.

As demonstrated by the "give-and give", there is little hope of anyone changing anyone else's mind. Not the least of which is due to the fact that very few if any have presented anything of substance. And also because it takes a hell of a lot of work to come up with anything resembling substantiation.

That being said there is one little tidbit I'd like to present which might get a few people thinking for a change and it has to do with what I consider the fiasco discussion regarding the bent or unbent lead arm. And more specifically those who think that the lead arm has a significant role in terms of dramatically affecting the result of the swing I.e. bat speed or swing quickness.

First let me say that lead arm barring was correctly identified as a result of bat drag. This was discussed and pointed out I think about five or six years ago on the SETPRO forums. Again a testament to the fact that baseball instruction refuses to build on any kind of foundation and simply continues to chase its tail by those who wish to reinvent themselves every couple of years.

For those of you who think that lead arm extension is synonymous with the bat speed the following simulations might be of interest.



This would be representative of looking down at the swing plane, i.e. the observers line of sight is perpendicular to the swing plane.

The large yellow circle represents the rotational mass of the torso. Values have been chosen which closely approximate the moment of inertia as well as the maximum angular velocity that the upper torso reaches during the swing process.

Also shown are linkages (blue rectangles) connected form the circle which would be the shoulder to the upper arm and then a now the linkage from the elbow to the bat. Again these masses and there is appropriate inertia have been chosen representative of a 200 pound player.

The same is said for the "bat" which is the slender blue rectangle with the yellow circle attached to the tip of the bat.

"Restraints" simulating muscular actions to maintain joint angles are also included in the simulation.

The boxes (numbers) on the left-hand side measure the time, rotational velocity of the torso ( circle 1) and the tip speed of the bat (circle 29).

As you can see by the simulation this would be extending the lead arm into contact, with a maximum bat speed of approximately 80.168 mph.

In this second simulation everything is the same except there is no extension of the lead arm.



This simulation achieves a maximum bat did speed of 83.968 mph.

I will leave it as an exercise for the reader as to why the difference.

One other point, this comment, my opinion is not true or should I say does not necessarily need to be true or should I say should not be true for the parent or player which wishes to reach the highest levels of performance:


Not everyone here is dealing with young kids. Some of us are working with HS kids. So we both need to be patient with each other's vantage points. In fact, I got a new kid this morning that came with an issue of bending/kneeling on their front leg into contact (think the opposite of lead-leg pushback). So I have issues to iron out as well.

If you don't have optimal swing mechanics by the age of 11 or 12 you probably will never have them. The goal of every player and parent or coach should be developed as early as possible what I considered constraint independent swing mechanics. Again I'll leave it up to the reader to do some research to find out what constraint independent swing mechanics are. The point being that there should be no difference between what you do with a five or six-year-old and what you expect from a 15 or 16 year old. I understand the different levels of motivation and desire and I'm talking about any player who wishes to maximize their swing/hitting potential.

And last but not least it continues to amaze me of how many people can be critical of something they know nothing about. That unless you've done as much research and work understanding what the other person knows there is no way that you can pass any kind of judgement with the kind of "absolutism" that I see here. I think there's a saying that to the effect of "walk a mile in my shoes".

In closing I think the following says a lot about what goes on here and on other forms when it comes to what people "think" they know.... happy holidays....:gt


Implied subconcious knowledge and motor skills


The reason for focusing on motor skills is simple: they “supply a set of relational examples of subconcious knowledge in everyday life” and bicycle riding is a particularly good example because, Schmidt argues, even if we could formulate rules for riding a bicycle, they would be of little use to a non-rider (Schmidt 1997). The prominence of bicycle riding is due to Miller who wrote that “If I know how to ride a bicycle or how to swim, this does not mean that I can tell how I manage to keep my balance on a bicycle or keep afloat when swimming.” (Miller, 1971, p. 121). Miller wrote that “the principle by which the cyclist maintains his balance is not generally known” but, went on to describe in detail that cyclists maintain their balance by steering in the direction of imbalance, thus correcting it. Later he was more explicit writing that “in order to compensate for a given angle of imbalance a, we must take a curve on the side of the imbalance, of which the radius (r) should be proportionate to the square of the velocity (v) over the imbalance” (Miller, 1971, p. 176). Since successful cyclists evidently know these facts, but are unable to articulate it, this knowledge is tacit.

We might well ask how Miller could give such accounts if this knowledge was in the subconcious mind? He cited no sources for his information, and we have simply been left with his authority on the matter. He was right that little was known about bicycle riding as a review of research written in 1981 only found 19 papers of which only four dealt with the rider’s contribution to control (Boston 1991). However, Miller was completely wrong in his account of how cyclists ride and keep their balance.

Boston (1991) conducted one of the rare studies of bicycle riding, and confirmed that riders do not have a clear idea of what they are doing. When it comes to turning corners he noted most riders believe they initiate a turn by turning the handle bars in the direction they wish to go (as Miller wrote). In fact, however, the opposite is the case, as he showed by observing the marks made by wet tires on a dry surface: “If we enter a turn quickly ... we can see that the front wheel turns momentarily away from the desired direction before making the turn ...” (Boston, 1991 p. 19).

Miller appears to have been mistaken – along with most others – in his account of how bicycle riders maintain balance while cornering. This is important because while he says that knowledge of the subconcious rule would not be of use to a cyclist, he claimed that a rule such as he described is actually followed, which is not the case. From one perspective this merely deepens the mystery: Miller believed he had formulated the implied rules for maintaining balance on a bicycle when in fact he had done nothing of the sort – the rules remained in the subconcious mind of the bicycle rider! On the other hand it illustrates some of the problems with assertions about implied knowledge, namely, that while it is often invoked as an explanatory factor, there is usually absolutely no evidence to support the claim, and its use actually amounts to little more than a re-labelling of a problem. In the case of bicycle riding, it may not be necessary to invoke the idea of rules at all (Boston 1991).

[FiveFrameSwing]

Fiveframe,
The vast majority of high school kids can't hit the good fastball because their swings aren't quick enough.

It would be difficult to make the Varsity team and not be able to hit a routine fastball. All the kids I had this morning (with the exception of one newbie) were able to hit off of a cranked up pitching machine. Other than one kid, handling speed wasn't an issue.

If you are talking about your typical kid that isn't on the Varsity team, then I understand where you are coming from. I'm working with a few kids that hope to make the Varsity team eventually. It's like Steve said ... its a journey. I have one kid that is very close. They are smoking fastballs, but even that may not be enough to make the Varsity team this year.

I don't know what gave you the impression that I'm looking for huge hits. I'm happy with linedrives to the outfield. The D1 stats I have state that for every 10 grounders that a batter only gets on base twice, for every 10 fly balls a batter only gets on base three times, but for every 10 linedrives the batter gets on base eight times. For me it's all about hitting linedrives.

[FiveFrameSwing]

In this second simulation everything is the same except there is no extension of the lead arm.

This simulation achieves a maximum bat did speed of 83.968 mph.



You showed how the maximum speed obtained was 83.968mph when the lead-arm angle was held constant at 90-degrees.

What I'd like to know is what the results would be if the angles were something greater than 90-degrees. What would the maximum speed be if the angle was fixed at 110-degrees or 140-degrees?

The argument as I understand it is that lead arm extension is desirable (i.e., an angle greater than 90-degrees by less than 180-degrees). The argument is also that maintaining that angle to contact is beneficial. Therefore your simulation results for various 'fixed' angles would be appreciated.

[JJA]

Fiveframe,

I didn't say the routine fastball, I said the good fastball. Few of the varsity guys can handle the good fastball, especially outside. A couple of weeks ago we had a practice game against a 15 year old who could throw 92 mph (who unfortunately is undergoing Tommy John surgery this week) and it was a total mismatch. All but the best guys couldn't touch him because their swings aren't quick enough. And it isn't a strength or power issue. Some of our kids are 6'3" and 220 pounds, and are ripped. But they've got 5.5-6 frame swings and are thus out of their league against a guy like that. Give them an 80 mph fastball and they'll hit 350+ feet. But the good guys don't throw it 80 mph...

-JJA

[FiveFrameSwing]

Fiveframe,

I didn't say the routine fastball, I said the good fastball. Few of the varsity guys can handle the good fastball, especially outside. A couple of weeks ago we had a practice game against a 15 year old who could throw 92 mph (who unfortunately is undergoing Tommy John surgery this week) and it was a total mismatch. All but the best guys couldn't touch him because their swings aren't quick enough. And it isn't a strength or power issue. Some of our kids are 6'3" and 220 pounds, and are ripped. But they've got 5.5-6 frame swings and are thus out of their league against a guy like that. Give them an 80 mph fastball and they'll hit 350+ feet. But the good guys don't throw it 80 mph...

-JJA

You are preaching to the choir.

I'm a big advocate of swing efficiency and I believe the recent discussions on frame counts have been healthy.

[swingbuilder]

Thats ok. Was just having some fun.

[FiveFrameSwing]

Well, I should work on my spelling.

[Drill]

Well, I should work on my spelling.

get google toolbar and they have a spell check on it


drill