View Full Version : Connection, Separation, and Circular Hand Path
Chris O'Leary
12-20-2007, 08:40 AM
As you may know, I am working on a primer for rotational hitting...
- Rotational Hitting 101 (http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Hitting/RethinkingHitting/Essays/RotationalHitting.html)
Yesterday I got an e-mail from a pro hitter (I don't yet know who it is or whether he plays in the big leagues) who also does instruction in the off-season.
While he generally liked what I said in terms of what a ML hitter's lower body does, he took me to task for what I said about what a ML hitter's upper body does.
In particular, he thinks I am completely misinterpreting Pete Rose's hand path...
http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Hitting/Images/Example_CircularHandPath_PeteRose_001.JPG
He thinks that the hand path is more like this...
http://photos.imageevent.com/siggy/hitting/analysis/work.gif
I'm not sure how to deal with this. My interpretation of Pete Rose's hand path is pretty much identical to Jack Mankin's.
Has anyone else dealt with this before? Is the problem that most people have never looked at overhead views of swings? Is it that they have never actually plotted the hand path, but have always assumed that it is what they think it is?
I am going to do a breakdown of the Frank Robinson overhead clip and see what I find.
Also, does anyone know of any other overhead views of hitters?
FiveFrameSwing
12-20-2007, 08:49 AM
I'm not sure how to deal with this. My interpretation of Pete Rose's hand path is pretty much identical to Jack Mankin's.
Has anyone else dealt with this before? Is the problem that most people have never looked at overhead views of swings? Is it that they have never actually plotted the hand path, but have always assumed that it is what they think it is?
I believe the issue is that Pete Rose is just one example and that many feel that his hand path is not representative of the majority of MLB hitters.
Peavy has collected overhead data that suggest that the hands follow more of a pursuit curve.
4for4
12-20-2007, 09:01 AM
I believe the issue is that Pete Rose is just one example and that many feel that his hand path is not representative of the majority of MLB hitters.
Peavy has collected overhead data that suggest that the hands follow more of a pursuit curve.
Geez FFS, the issue is whether the hand path is like Rose or like the guy doing the cement shuffle, not pursuit curves. The path is circular in nature and factors like the player and location of the pitch will impact the actual path.
Chris, did you send him the overhead of Rose?
CoachB25
12-20-2007, 09:06 AM
Chris, I've used video cameras from behind and over our cages before. I'm sure that with your contacts, you can find hitters willing to allow you to video them from this same position. Not only is this interesting, you will find other flaws as well besides hands issues. Of course, a trick will always be finding cages where you can get that look. Some HS have their drop down cages next to bleachers. That was the case when I first started doing this. While some others like ours now, have a cage that is out in the open and so it is easy to use a ladder to get that view. With all of the MLB clips coming down lately, (reference Donny's Site and Siggy) I'm beginning to think that those that have clips might not want to do too much sharing.
You CPR guys , I admit I don't know everything and I am trying to learn what the best mechanics are to teach kids now and to be suceesful later on. CPR guys everytime hand path comes up one of you have to put this one Pete Rose picture on here with the dots .This is one clip ,show me ten video clips of Rose . Sorry this just makes me laugh that you keep using this clip to base your material on and besides that you guys talk about all the power of pcr and you use a singles hitter as your demonstation . Please people can we get rid of the Pete Rose picture and all pictures for that matter . We can build a case with any picture if we pick the right frame . Lets see video ,video ,video
One more thing when you guys show example you always go from one extreme to the other like chris did here in this thread .
The vast majority of overhead clips that we've seen (Rose, Frank Robinson, Murcer, Williams, Bench, Kaline, etc.) come from a single source, the Ted Williams video "The Science of Hitting", the companion source to his famous book. That video is NOT owned by MLB so they cannot ask those videos come down.
On the other hand, that video is fully owned by Doak Ewing of Rare Sports Films, and strictly speaking Doak could ask that they do. It's his stuff and when you buy the material you don't have the right to put it up on the internet but people have done so anyway. Doak is just one guy so he probably won't come after folks, but just because he's small doesn't make it right to essentially steal from him. My suggestion is if you're interested buy the tape from him for $29. It's Christmas time and his great collection of vintage tape is a super present for dads (son, are you listening???) who would otherwise get clothes they never wear.
-JJA
Chris O'Leary
12-20-2007, 09:25 AM
Geez FFS, the issue is whether the hand path is like Rose or like the guy doing the cement shuffle, not pursuit curves. The path is circular in nature and factors like the player and location of the pitch will impact the actual path.
I agree.
While there is a difference between a CHP and a pursuit curve (absolutely circular versus diminishing in radius), the difference is very small at the end of the day.
It's also gigantic compared to a linear hand path.
For the record I see the pursuit curve in the last 1/3 of the hand path. I think that's what Mankin means when he talks about "The Final Arc".
Chris, did you send him the overhead of Rose?
I have this diagram in my primer...
http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Hitting/Images/Example_CircularHandPath_PeteRose_001.JPG
Maybe what I need to do is send him the PDF where I go through the clip, and lay out the hand path, frame by frame...
- Pete Rose Swing Analysis (http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Hitting/ProfessionalHitterAnalyses/Documents/SwingAnalysis_PeteRose.pdf)
I think that's going to be hard to argue with, but I'm not holding my breath.
Chris O'Leary
12-20-2007, 09:35 AM
I believe the issue is that Pete Rose is just one example and that many feel that his hand path is not representative of the majority of MLB hitters.
This is a valid and understandable objection.
But I don't agree.
Chris , This is really impressive with ONE clip. Do you have any video clips of Pete maybe like five or ten clips so we can decide . That's what I thought!
Chris, as a parent not a teacher, I don't think that trying to teach a player to have circular hand path will help them improve... Its my opinion that if you teach a kid the basics they'll figure out how to hit the ball...don't try to fit everyone into your idea of what a rotational swing is because there is plenty of evidence on this site that there is not one way to teach a swing that is effective. I mean how do you want the kids to rotate: around the spine; around a balanced middle; or, around a stationary front leg? Why don't you call it a primer on "Hitting"? Get rid of rotational/linear stuff. "Circular hand path"?? Go to the backyard and try to do it. Video yourself and post it, then I'll decide if its a good teach. Geez, you had to know this was coming...and the holiday season and everything. jima
CoachB25
12-20-2007, 10:13 AM
Chris , This is really impressive with ONE clip. Do you have any video clips of Pete maybe like five or ten clips so we can decide . That's what I thought!
JayC, you have a weggie that you just can't fix? :eek: Chris posted in his opening that he wanted to know if there were other videos/pics out there to view. He also said that he was interested in looking at a clip of Frank Robinson for some info and to make comments. JJA, posted the known clips from that angle as well as posted where at least one video was offered which I think was what Chris was getting after. Be careful when you fix that weggie. Beware of the brown racer stripe!:confused::dance:):)
FiveFrameSwing
12-20-2007, 10:17 AM
This is a valid and understandable objection.
But I don't agree.
I respect your view point.
Chris , This is really impressive with ONE clip. Do you have any video clips of Pete maybe like five or ten clips so we can decide . That's what I thought!
JayC,
why don't you put some swings up of yourself or anyone that you believe is correct in your mind. I 'm very interested in what you see. I haven't seen anything from you that gives you any credibility whatsoever to debate.
EL,
Chris O'Leary
12-20-2007, 10:30 AM
Chris, as a parent not a teacher, I don't think that trying to teach a player to have circular hand path will help them improve
I hear you.
However, I think you have to have a correct conception of what a good swing looks like to be able to teach it well.
Let me compare this to pitching. You're going to have a hard time teaching people how to pitch if you think the elbow is bent 90 degrees at the release point. Any positive results you get will just be due to luck.
Get rid of rotational/linear stuff.
I'm actually moving in this direction.
I'm more focused in teaching the major league swing, meaning the swing that 90+% of major leaguers use (excluding Ichiro, Vald Guerrero, and a few others).
"Circular hand path"?? Go to the backyard and try to do it. Video yourself and post it, then I'll decide if its a good teach. Geez, you had to know this was coming...and the holiday season and everything. jima
I wouldn't have posted this if I didn't think I could take it.
As you may know, I am working on a primer for rotational hitting...
- Rotational Hitting 101 (http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Hitting/RethinkingHitting/Essays/RotationalHitting.html)
Yesterday I got an e-mail from a pro hitter (I don't yet know who it is or whether he plays in the big leagues) who also does instruction in the off-season.
While he generally liked what I said in terms of what a ML hitter's lower body does, he took me to task for what I said about what a ML hitter's upper body does.
In particular, he thinks I am completely misinterpreting Pete Rose's hand path...
http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Hitting/Images/Example_CircularHandPath_PeteRose_001.JPG
He thinks that the hand path is more like this...
http://photos.imageevent.com/siggy/hitting/analysis/work.gif
I'm not sure how to deal with this. My interpretation of Pete Rose's hand path is pretty much identical to Jack Mankin's.
Has anyone else dealt with this before? Is the problem that most people have never looked at overhead views of swings? Is it that they have never actually plotted the hand path, but have always assumed that it is what they think it is?
I am going to do a breakdown of the Frank Robinson overhead clip and see what I find.
Also, does anyone know of any other overhead views of hitters?
My question is why this pro or expro now hitting instructor can't post himself?
EL,
I hear you.
However, I think you have to have a correct conception of what a good swing looks like to be able to teach it well.
Let me compare this to pitching. You're going to have a hard time teaching people how to pitch if you think the elbow is bent 90 degrees at the release point. Any positive results you get will just be due to luck.
I'm actually moving in this direction.
I'm more focused in teaching the major league swing, meaning the swing that 90+% of major leaguers use (excluding Ichiro, Vald Guerrero, and a few others).
I wouldn't have posted this if I didn't think I could take it.
Chris,
are you having fun yet?
EL,
I hear you.
However, I think you have to have a correct conception of what a good swing looks like to be able to teach it well.
Let me compare this to pitching. You're going to have a hard time teaching people how to pitch if you think the elbow is bent 90 degrees at the release point. Any positive results you get will just be due to luck.
I'm actually moving in this direction.
I'm more focused in teaching the major league swing, meaning the swing that 90+% of major leaguers use (excluding Ichiro, Vald Guerrero, and a few others).
I wouldn't have posted this if I didn't think I could take it.
Chris, alright. I'm through venting my frustration over the continuing rotatoinal vs. linear debate. My main point is if a parent actually tries to teach his kid to swing in a perfect circle, the parent is missing the point of your instruction and could do some harm. I do think that many good hitters feel as though their hands are moving the barrell to the ball...they may not actually do it on video...but when they see the ball that's what the sensation is...its not easy to describe, but imo hitting is NOT is not 1.)see the ball...2)turn...and, 3) hope. jima
like the guy doing the cement shuffle,
This is what I tell pitchers to look for with hitters. If the hitter approaches the inside pitch like this he will be doing the cement shuffle back to the dugout. Good luck with this! This pro player has a name and has video out there of himself why not show his approach when he played?
EL,
Chris, alright. I'm through venting my frustration over the continuing rotatoinal vs. linear debate. My main point is if a parent actually tries to teach his kid to swing in a perfect circle, the parent is missing the point of your instruction and could do some harm. I do think that many good hitters feel as though their hands are moving the barrell to the ball...they may not actually do it on video...but when they see the ball that's what the sensation is...its not easy to describe, but imo hitting is NOT is not 1.)see the ball...2)turn...and, 3) hope. jima
Jima,
what motion do you think is close to what the best hitters produce with body/arms/hands, the cement shuffle, circular, or pursuit curves?
EL,
Lady_Knights
12-20-2007, 11:01 AM
I agree.
While there is a difference between a CHP and a pursuit curve (absolutely circular versus diminishing in radius), the difference is very small at the end of the day.
It's also gigantic compared to a linear hand path.
For the record I see the pursuit curve in the last 1/3 of the hand path. I think that's what Mankin means when he talks about "The Final Arc".
http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Hitting/Images/Example_CircularHandPath_PeteRose_001.JPG
Here is my take, and the problem that I see with this video of Rose.
At toe touch, the hands will be moving in a linear motion (not a circular), toward the pitcher, roughly 3-6 inches. At heel plant, and when rotational mechanics start to take over, the hands will then start into somewhat of a CHP (circular hand path), throughout the rest of the swing.
The problem with the Rose clip, is that someone has left out the beginning of the clip, where you don't see the linear hand movement. His elbow is already in the slot, and he has reached heel plant and the rotational mechanics are taking over.
I feel that if you had 3-4 more frames earlier, you would see a linear hand motion, before you see the CHP.
Chris O'Leary
12-20-2007, 11:29 AM
My question is why this pro or expro now hitting instructor can't post himself?
He's not on this board (to my knowledge).
He found me through my web site.
One of his students came across my site and pointed him to my site to see what he thought about what I was saying.
[QUOTE=Lady_Knights;1074842]Here is my take, and the problem that I see with this video of Rose.
At toe touch, the hands will be moving in a linear motion (not a circular), toward the pitcher, roughly 3-6 inches. At heel plant, and when rotational mechanics start to take over, the hands will then start into somewhat of a CHP (circular hand path), throughout the rest of the swing.
At toe touch, the hands will be moving in a linear motion (not a circular), toward the pitcher, roughly 3-6 inches.
The hands "could" be moving 3-6 inches in a linear motion. The hands/arms "can" also launch the swing "without" this 3-4 inch linear motion.
EL,
Chris O'Leary
12-20-2007, 11:30 AM
Chris, alright. I'm through venting my frustration over the continuing rotatoinal vs. linear debate. My main point is if a parent actually tries to teach his kid to swing in a perfect circle, the parent is missing the point of your instruction and could do some harm. I do think that many good hitters feel as though their hands are moving the barrell to the ball...they may not actually do it on video...but when they see the ball that's what the sensation is...its not easy to describe, but imo hitting is NOT is not 1.)see the ball...2)turn...and, 3) hope. jima
I hear you and agree.
Chris O'Leary
12-20-2007, 11:32 AM
I feel that if you had 3-4 more frames earlier, you would see a linear hand motion, before you see the CHP.
I don't disagree.
Lady nights , Chris and EL don't want you to see that part of the swing either that or they are blinded by it. They claim to know so much but they don't see that linear move with the lead elbow with almost every mlb hitter.EL why do I need to back this up you can see it in almost any clip you look at .What do you want one picture and I can say I backed it up . Chris or EL I have to wonder do either one of you coach a baseball team and actually see what gets results like Jima said earlier. Let me guess you both study video 24/7 and get alot of your ideas off this sight . You guys try to take to many different ideas from to many people and put it togeather to try to look like some hiiting guru that you guys aren't . Do your parents and kids a favor and find a proven system that gets results now and when they get older and quit wasting there time and money.
Chris O'Leary
12-20-2007, 11:46 AM
I just put this together to help people understand what Pete Rose actually does when he swings.
http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Hitting/Videos/Video_Hitting_PeteRose_Overhead_RH_Annotated_001.g if
The dots represent the end of the bat and are placed every 5 frames so you can get a sense of both trajectory and acceleration.
Chris O'Leary
12-20-2007, 11:50 AM
Leaving aside the absolutely miserable spelling...
Lady nights , Chris and EL don't want you to see that part of the swing either that or they are blinded by it. They claim to know so much but they don't see that linear move with the lead elbow with almost every mlb hitter.
I see it.
I just don't think it's that important.
EL , I can't beleive it all of a sudden you are teaching a linear move three to six inches . Can I have a little credit for opening your eyes on this or Slaught or whoever . Please don't tell me you have been teaching this all along . I glad we could wake you up! QUOTE=Erik;1074870]Here is my take, and the problem that I see with this video of Rose.
At toe touch, the hands will be moving in a linear motion (not a circular), toward the pitcher, roughly 3-6 inches. At heel plant, and when rotational mechanics start to take over, the hands will then start into somewhat of a CHP (circular hand path), throughout the rest of the swing.
At toe touch, the hands will be moving in a linear motion (not a circular), toward the pitcher, roughly 3-6 inches.
The hands "could" be moving 3-6 inches in a linear motion. The hands/arms "can" also launch the swing "without" this 3-4 inch linear motion.
EL,
Chris O'Leary
12-20-2007, 11:57 AM
EL , I can't beleive it all of a sudden you are teaching a linear move three to six inches . Can I have a little credit for opening your eyes on this or Slaught or whoever . Please don't tell me you have been teaching this all along . I glad we could wake you up!
JayC,
Not to burst your bubble, but this isn't what people are talking about when they talk about linear hitting and linear hand paths.
A linear movement at this moment is fine because the shoulders aren't rotating.
The whole linear versus rotational thing is based on what the hands do as the shoulders rotate.
Chris O'Leary
12-20-2007, 11:59 AM
Here is my take, and the problem that I see with this video of Rose.
At toe touch, the hands will be moving in a linear motion (not a circular), toward the pitcher, roughly 3-6 inches. At heel plant, and when rotational mechanics start to take over, the hands will then start into somewhat of a CHP (circular hand path), throughout the rest of the swing.
The problem with the Rose clip, is that someone has left out the beginning of the clip, where you don't see the linear hand movement. His elbow is already in the slot, and he has reached heel plant and the rotational mechanics are taking over.
I feel that if you had 3-4 more frames earlier, you would see a linear hand motion, before you see the CHP.
I don't disagree with any of this.
However, I don't think it's THAT critical.
Jima,
what motion do you think is close to what the best hitters produce with body/arms/hands, the cement shuffle, circular, or pursuit curves?
EL,
EL, my bet is that when the people on this board watch a mlb swing, they all see different things...it depends on their point of reference and their particular belief system. IMO, its body, arms, hands..if the hips and shoulders rotate, then the bat will move an eliptical fashion...ie., to use your examples, more of a pursuit curve. Chris's cement man is the extreme, but I have seened some powerful swings that were first initiated with a lateral move prior to foot plant. jima
Lady_Knights
12-20-2007, 12:06 PM
I don't disagree with any of this.
However, I don't think it's THAT critical.
It may not be critical, but I do believe it is widely misunderstood by coaches players and parents. I to, for the longest time, believed that the hands went right into a CHP, without any linear movement. I actually had my students rest the bat on the side of there shoulder, and keep it there as they started there upper body rotation, during some of the drills we performed.
Not critical if it happens in there swing, but critical if you are teaching to prevent it...
You say its not critical but how do you stay inside the baseball or square the ball up without it cinsistantly. If you agree with it then you are pretty much online with Slaughts stuff correct.
It may not be critical, but I do believe it is widely misunderstood by coaches players and parents. I to, for the longest time, believed that the hands went right into a CHP, without any linear movement. I actually had my students rest the bat on the side of there shoulder, and keep it there as they started there upper body rotation, during some of the drills we performed.
Not critical if it happes in there swing, but critical if you are teaching to prevent it...
For what its worth, my son had the same experience with his first instructor...he was leaning back and starting his swing with bat resting against his back shoulder...he never could get it...although, some kids did better than others.
EL , I can't beleive it all of a sudden you are teaching a linear move three to six inches . Can I have a little credit for opening your eyes on this or Slaught or whoever . Please don't tell me you have been teaching this all along . I glad we could wake you up! QUOTE=Erik;1074870]
JayC,
The hands "could" be moving 3-6 inches in a linear motion. The hands/arms "can" also launch the swing "without" this 3-4 inch linear motion.
I don't teach a linear move 3-6 inches. I said the hands could move 3-6 inches. The hands can also not move 3-6 inches. What do you teach a player to think move my hands 3-6 inches first before you swing. Good luck!
EL,
Let me guess you both study video 24/7 and get alot of your ideas off this sight . You guys try to take to many different ideas from to many people and put it togeather to try to look like some hiiting guru that you guys aren't . Do your parents and kids a favor and find a proven system that gets results now and when they get older and quit wasting there time and money.[/QUOTE]
JayC,
You guys try to take to many different ideas from to many people and put it togeather to try to look like some hiiting guru that you guys aren't . Do your parents and kids a favor and find a proven system that gets results now and when they get older and quit wasting there time and money.[/QUOTE]
I have many proven results. I have been developing hitters for over 15 yrs. I teach what I and other people like me believe is the most accurate information. JayC stop hating! Are you sure you aren't from Cincinnati? You sure sound familar. I spoke with a JayC from Cincy and he used the same tone interesting JayC.
EL,
You say its not critical but how do you stay inside the baseball or square the ball up without it cinsistantly. If you agree with it then you are pretty much online with Slaughts stuff correct.
JayC,
You say its not critical but how do you stay inside the baseball or square the ball up without it cinsistantly
This can be shown with a heavy bag. This is a no brainer.
EL,
Chris, just to see how the eyes can confuse...if you line up the first 3 dots of Rose's swing and extend the imaginary line to the plate, you could make a case that he was taking the knob to the ball.
Chris O'Leary
12-20-2007, 01:33 PM
It may not be critical, but I do believe it is widely misunderstood by coaches players and parents. I to, for the longest time, believed that the hands went right into a CHP, without any linear movement. I actually had my students rest the bat on the side of there shoulder, and keep it there as they started there upper body rotation, during some of the drills we performed.
Not critical if it happens in there swing, but critical if you are teaching to prevent it...
I agree.
Also, I lump some of this under the "Running Start" concept which I don't see as being contrary to the principles of rotational hitting since it happens before the shoulders start to rotate.
I could see a Running Start leading into a rotational swing.
Chris O'Leary
12-20-2007, 05:05 PM
FWIW, I figured out who the guy is who wrote me based on his first name and e-mail handle.
He was in the Red Sox and Yankee systems and topped out at AA, probably due to his hitting. His career minor average was around .250 and he hit around .175 in his last year of AA.
[QUOTE=Lady_Knights;1074842]Here is my take, and the problem that I see with this video of Rose.
At toe touch, the hands will be moving in a linear motion (not a circular), toward the pitcher, roughly 3-6 inches. At heel plant, and when rotational mechanics start to take over, the hands will then start into somewhat of a CHP (circular hand path), throughout the rest of the swing.
Lady Knights,
At toe touch, the hands will be moving in a linear motion (not a circular), toward the pitcher, roughly 3-6 inches.
Why would the hands be moving in a linear motion at toe touch? I ask because I teach a hitter to start the swing at heel plant. I like the hitter to keep the hands back until the swing starts.
I agree with what you have descibed after heel plant. What causes the hands to move forward getting into toe touch? JayC if you can't discuss this without bipolar reactions don't reply. If there is some video that shows this please post. I have an open mind.
EL,
Lady_Knights
12-20-2007, 08:30 PM
[QUOTE=Lady_Knights;1074842]
At toe touch, the hands will be moving in a linear motion (not a circular), toward the pitcher, roughly 3-6 inches.
Why would the hands be moving in a linear motion at toe touch? I ask because I teach a hitter to start the swing at heel plant. I like the hitter to keep the hands back until the swing starts.
I agree with what you have descibed after heel plant. What causes the hands to move forward getting into toe touch? JayC if you can't discuss this without bipolar reactions don't reply. If there is some video that shows this please post. I have an open mind.
EL,
Erik,
Your right, the motion will not start until "heel plant" instead of "toe touch", that is what I meant, but I made a typo. Thanks for the clarification, believe me I don't want to make it anymore confusing then it is already.
Shayne
hiddengem
12-20-2007, 08:48 PM
That stupid cement mixer clip is over exaggerated. Nobody in the big leagues or any good hitter in pro ball hits like this. Furthermore, I've never had a coach try and tell me to take that approach at the ball.
I strive to have my hands start out in a circular path and extend out at the end of the swing. If the ball is way inside, then my hands will continue on a circular path, but on balls middle to middle away I strive to stay on the ball and keep my barrell in the zone as long as possible. If I have a circular hand path on every pitch I'll end up pulling off and rolling over many balls.
I practice extending back through the field so I train myself to stay on and inside the ball.
BoardMember
12-20-2007, 09:00 PM
Thx HG. Finally someone who makes some sense. I've been following along thinking: "the hands take a linear path for 6 to 8 inches"?
I certainly don't think anyone should "try" to take the hands linear AT ALL.
They stay back until rotation starts IMO. One the shoulders start turning the hands are "taken" into the swing.........Adjustments begin here.......
That stupid cement mixer clip is over exaggerated. Nobody in the big leagues or any good hitter in pro ball hits like this. Furthermore, I've never had a coach try and tell me to take that approach at the ball.
I strive to have my hands start out in a circular path and extend out at the end of the swing. If the ball is way inside, then my hands will continue on a circular path, but on balls middle to middle away I strive to stay on the ball and keep my barrell in the zone as long as possible. If I have a circular hand path on every pitch I'll end up pulling off and rolling over many balls.
I practice extending back through the field so I train myself to stay on and inside the ball.
That stupid cement mixer clip is over exaggerated. Nobody in the big leagues or any good hitter in pro ball hits like this. Furthermore, I've never had a coach try and tell me to take that approach at the ball.
I strive to have my hands start out in a circular path and extend out at the end of the swing. If the ball is way inside, then my hands will continue on a circular path, but on balls middle to middle away I strive to stay on the ball and keep my barrell in the zone as long as possible. If I have a circular hand path on every pitch I'll end up pulling off and rolling over many balls.
I practice extending back through the field so I train myself to stay on and inside the ball.
HiddenGem,
If I have a circular hand path on every pitch I'll end up pulling off and rolling over many balls.
This makes sense with certain areas of the contact zone and certain types of pitches.
My understanding of what you have said is your primary approach is start out in a circular path. The balls away you have to know how to adjust the swing so you don't pull off the ball on the outside half.
I practice extending back through the field so I train myself to stay on and inside the ball.[/QUOTE]
This staying on the inside of the ball is for the pitch away correct. The pitch that's inside don't you hit the outside seem to pull?
EL,
I'm more focused in teaching the major league swing, meaning the swing that 90+% of major leaguers use (excluding Ichiro, Vald Guerrero, and a few others).
Why would you exclude Vlad Guerrero? He has an exceptionally high-level swing.
Go Cardinals
12-21-2007, 12:24 AM
Why would you exclude Vlad Guerrero? He has an exceptionally high-level swing.
It seems dif to me...The amount of force and effort he puts into his swing... its amazing how unorthadox it is ... and how the hell does he make soooooo much contact with that jerky, full effort swing? Look where his body is in the follow through. The torso is like rotated 180 lol
Thats just my observation though. There may be a better reason.
It seems dif to me...The amount of force and effort he puts into his swing... its amazing how unorthadox it is ... and how the hell does he make soooooo much contact with that jerky, full effort swing? Look where his body is in the follow through. The torso is like rotated 180 lol
Thats just my observation though. There may be a better reason.
His follow-through isn't that important. What happens from launch to contact is the first part of his swing I look at and it's not much different from any other high-level swing. What amazes me the most is that he can hit any pitch, any location (especially out of the zone) out of the park.
There is nothing wrong with his full effort swing. He had more walks (71) than strikeouts (62) last year, and he doesn't even strikeout that much. So, as aggressive as he is, he's just as patient. There were only 2 players last year that struck out less while hitting more homeruns than Vlad: Bonds and Pujols. Carlos Lee was close, he had 1 more strikeout than Vlad.
His swing isn't "jerky". What he does is called "tip and rip". It's just a loading process, a running start. A lot of MLB hitters do this. Once his front heel comes down, he looks the same as any other high-level MLB hitter.
Go Cardinals
12-21-2007, 01:41 AM
His follow-through isn't that important. What happens from launch to contact is the first part of his swing I look at and it's not much different from any other high-level swing. What amazes me the most is that he can hit any pitch, any location (especially out of the zone) out of the park.
There is nothing wrong with his full effort swing. He had more walks (71) than strikeouts (62) last year, and he doesn't even strikeout that much. So, as aggressive as he is, he's just as patient. There were only 2 players last year that struck out less while hitting more homeruns than Vlad: Bonds and Pujols. Carlos Lee was close, he had 1 more strikeout than Vlad.
His swing isn't "jerky". What he does is called "tip and rip". It's just a loading process, a running start. A lot of MLB hitters do this. Once his front heel comes down, he looks the same as any other high-level MLB hitter.
I know what tip and rip is... Ok, I guess I didn't make sense with what I said here.... What I ment is that he puts so much into his swing that most people couldn't do that swing and make it a mlb swing. Just like most people couldn't do ichiro's swing.
Hard Liner
12-21-2007, 02:13 AM
Regarding the shape of hand paths, here's a nice graphic from Science of Hitting.
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d80/gronkle/baseball/ScienceofHittinggraphicP64Medium.jpg
Chris O'Leary
12-21-2007, 05:26 AM
Why would you exclude Vlad Guerrero? He has an exceptionally high-level swing.
He isn't the most disciplined hitter in the world. Some of his swings are downright ugly.
Just because he can get away with it, it doesn't mean most people can.
He isn't the most disciplined hitter in the world. Some of his swings are downright ugly.
Just because he can get away with it, it doesn't mean most people can.
What parts of is swing? Pre-swing or follow-through? From launch to contact it looks great to me. You can't deny that.
Did you miss the part of my post where I stated he walked more times than he struck out? How is that considered not disciplined.
Whether or not he's good at recognizing pitches and guessing pitch sequences, his mechanics are excellent. Maybe it's his approach you don't like instead of his actual swing? Or are you trying to say you don't like his actual swing at all?
hiddengem
12-22-2007, 07:48 PM
HiddenGem,
This staying on the inside of the ball is for the pitch away correct. The pitch that's inside don't you hit the outside seem to pull?
EL,
Let me ask you this, if a pitch is on the inner black or corner of the plate and you are looking pull the ball. What approach at the ball do you need to take in order to keep this ball fair and not have it hook foul?
Let me ask you this, if a pitch is on the inner black or corner of the plate and you are looking pull the ball. What approach at the ball do you need to take in order to keep this ball fair and not have it hook foul?
What approach at the ball do you need to take in order to keep this ball fair and not have it hook foul?[/QUOTE]
HiddenGem,
I used to think that I had to keep this pitch fair all the time. I would hit that hard shot foul and know my swing was stronger. I would also think If I could have just kept that ball fair. I understand this pitch is tough. I want to get my body and arms/ hands to direct the bat to the ball the most efficient way. If I drive the ball foul that's ok. The A-C path created major jam jobs for me and hitters I have evaluated. I would say this is a pitchers pitch. The pitcher wants the hitter to be tied up on this pitch don't they. If you want to just keep this pitch fair the inside out swing is a way. This will get the barrel somewhat even with the hands at contact. This set up will allow for a fair ball but the arms,hands and wrist aren't in the best positions. I feel the barrel should be out in front and hitting the outside seem area not the inside seem of the ball on this pitch. I think where the hands and the arms are set will determine the approach. I like the hands and arms out away from the body some. The hands might seem out side the ball but as you start to turn the bat the hands work inside the ball. I find when the hands and arms are to close to the body from the start you're forced to create the inside out swing. I also was a pitcher and I used to bust hitters inside. The best hitters crushed this stuff foul. I love to hear the coach say keep the hands inside or take your hands to the ball. I would bust the hitter inside and they would try to keep this fair and get jamed most of the time. This is my experience as a hitter and pitcher. I will be creating a video clip that will explain my position on this pitch and others. I will use a heavy bag to aid in my demonstration. Thanks!
EL,
What approach at the ball do you need to take in order to keep this ball fair and not have it hook foul?
HiddenGem,
I used to think that I had to keep this pitch fair all the time. I would hit that hard shot foul and know my swing was stronger. I would also think If I could have just kept that ball fair. I understand this pitch is tough. I want to get my body and arms/ hands to direct the bat to the ball the most efficient way. If I drive the ball foul that's ok. The A-C path created major jam jobs for me and hitters I have evaluated. I would say this is a pitchers pitch. The pitcher wants the hitter to be tied up on this pitch don't they. If you want to just keep this pitch fair the inside out swing is a way. This will get the barrel somewhat even with the hands at contact. This set up will allow for a fair ball but the arms,hands and wrist aren't in the best positions. I feel the barrel should be out in front and hitting the outside seem area not the inside seem of the ball on this pitch. I think where the hands and the arms are set will determine the approach. I like the hands and arms out away from the body some. The hands might seem out side the ball but as you start to turn the bat the hands work inside the ball. I find when the hands and arms are to close to the body from the start you're forced to create the inside out swing. I also was a pitcher and I used to bust hitters inside. The best hitters crushed this stuff foul. I love to hear the coach say keep the hands inside or take your hands to the ball. I would bust the hitter inside and they would try to keep this fair and get jamed most of the time. This is my experience as a hitter and pitcher. I will be creating a video clip that will explain my position on this pitch and others. I will use a heavy bag to aid in my demonstration. Thanks!
EL,
Erik, I don't think that is the approach that I'd want my coach to take with my kid. I've seen hitters, who work at it, keep their hands inside the ball on inside pitches and hit line drives with authority. It is not a "give up" pitch...you'll end up with a hitter with too many holes. jima
Jima,
FYI the hitters I train have no trouble hitting the inside pitch. I think I do a pretty good job closing the holes on hitters. The hitters that I trained this year averaged 50-400 points better than the year before. I will continue with the program that has helped my players. I have never trained a hitter to give any plate space to the pitcher. I train to get to this pitch IMO better and the players stats show this. I evaluate an instructors ability on how his players produce after training with them. I have to say Jima 95% of the students I trained this year reached their goals and mine. The other 5% were injured and this ended their season. I feel I have a successful approach based off the statistics. This is how I evaluate my moves and changes. Thanks for your opinion.:nod::nod:
I've seen hitters, who work at it, keep their hands inside the ball on inside pitches and hit line drives with authority.
The swing I teach keeps the hands inside the ball and the hitters crush line drives.
EL,
Jima,
FYI the hitters I train have no trouble hitting the inside pitch. I think I do a pretty good job closing the holes on hitters. The hitters that I trained this year averaged 50-400 points better than the year before. I will continue with the program that has helped my players. I have never trained a hitter to give any plate space to the pitcher. I train to get to this pitch IMO better and the players stats show this. I evaluate an instructors ability on how his players produce after training with them. I have to say Jima 95% of the students I trained this year reached their goals and mine. The other 5% were injured and this ended their season. I feel I have a successful approach based of the statistics. This is how I evaluate my moves and changes. Thanks for your opinion.:nod::nod:
EL,
Erik, I have no doubt that you are succesful as a hitting instructor. My response was based on your reply to HG, which to me sounded like you were going to teach player to continue to pull insided pitches even though you knew they would end foul...it sounded like the rationale was that adjusting your swing to keep the ball in play did not have short or long term benefit. If I misinterpreted your response; my bad :nod: jima
Erik, I have no doubt that you are succesful as a hitting instructor. My response was based on your reply to HG, which to me sounded like you were going to teach player to continue to pull insided pitches even though you knew they would end foul...it sounded like the rationale was that adjusting your swing to keep the ball in play did not have short or long term benefit. If I misinterpreted your response; my bad :nod: jima
Jima,
the adjustment that might be made with the hitter would be back off the plate some. If this made the most sense. I don't like to take the bat out of the hitters hands and arms.
EL,
Jima,
the adjustment that might be made with the hitter would be back off the plate some. If this made the most sense. I don't like to take the bat out of the hitters hands and arms.
EL,
Erik, you have your student's back off the plate when they anticipate inside pitches and I assume you have them crowd the plate when they expect outside pitches. This type of adjustment runs contrary to how I thought a hitter was developed. I thought that an instructor would teach the student how to adjust to an inside pitch by tee work; and thousands of pitches thrown inside during batting practice...the same work ethic would apply to outside pitches. It sounds like you want your students to have one CHP swing and adjust in the box for what they guess is coming (I know I'm putting words in your mouth here, but let me know where I'm wrong). I think learning how to hit pitches at different locations is a primary component to the art of hitting . jima
Erik, you have your student's back off the plate when they anticipate inside pitches and I assume you have them crowd the plate when they expect outside pitches. This type of adjustment runs contrary to how I thought a hitter was developed. I thought that an instructor would teach the student how to adjust to an inside pitch by tee work; and thousands of pitches thrown inside during batting practice...the same work ethic would apply to outside pitches. It sounds like you want your students to have one CHP swing and adjust in the box for what they guess is coming (I know I'm putting words in your mouth here, but let me know where I'm wrong). I think learning how to hit pitches at different locations is a primary component to the art of hitting . jima
Jima,
Erik, you have your student's back off the plate when they anticipate inside pitches and I assume you have them crowd the plate when they expect outside pitches.
I don't promote crowding the plate. I like a hitter to be able to cover the entire plate. I like to give a hitter options to over come the pitchers game plan. This is information is covered during programs.
This type of adjustment runs contrary to how I thought a hitter was developed.
I don't think there is one blue print on developing a hitter.
I thought that an instructor would teach the student how to adjust to an inside pitch by tee work; and thousands of pitches thrown inside during batting practice...the same work ethic would apply to outside pitches.
I agree with this. I use Tee work and provide thousands of pitches working inside and outside.
It sounds like you want your students to have one CHP swing and adjust in the box for what they guess is coming (I know I'm putting words in your mouth here, but let me know where I'm wrong). I think learning how to hit pitches at different locations is a primary component to the art of hitting . jima[/QUOTE]
I teach hitter to start the swing what I believe is the most accurate motion.
I think learning how to hit pitches at different locations is a primary component to the art of hitting . jima[/QUOTE]
I don't think we disagree on this. When it comes down to hitting and being a hitter I'll take a hit any way I can get one. I help the players I train understand form and function is very important. I also teach the good swing isn't always going to happen. The hitter is going to have to survive other ways understanding the turning of the bat isn't in the cards all the time.
EL,
hiddengem
12-24-2007, 07:50 PM
What approach at the ball do you need to take in order to keep this ball fair and not have it hook foul?
HiddenGem,
I used to think that I had to keep this pitch fair all the time. I would hit that hard shot foul and know my swing was stronger. I would also think If I could have just kept that ball fair. I understand this pitch is tough. I want to get my body and arms/ hands to direct the bat to the ball the most efficient way. If I drive the ball foul that's ok. The A-C path created major jam jobs for me and hitters I have evaluated. I would say this is a pitchers pitch. The pitcher wants the hitter to be tied up on this pitch don't they. If you want to just keep this pitch fair the inside out swing is a way. This will get the barrel somewhat even with the hands at contact. This set up will allow for a fair ball but the arms,hands and wrist aren't in the best positions. I feel the barrel should be out in front and hitting the outside seem area not the inside seem of the ball on this pitch. I think where the hands and the arms are set will determine the approach. I like the hands and arms out away from the body some. The hands might seem out side the ball but as you start to turn the bat the hands work inside the ball. I find when the hands and arms are to close to the body from the start you're forced to create the inside out swing. I also was a pitcher and I used to bust hitters inside. The best hitters crushed this stuff foul. I love to hear the coach say keep the hands inside or take your hands to the ball. I would bust the hitter inside and they would try to keep this fair and get jamed most of the time. This is my experience as a hitter and pitcher. I will be creating a video clip that will explain my position on this pitch and others. I will use a heavy bag to aid in my demonstration. Thanks!
EL,
If you "expose" the handle of your bat to early on this pitch all you'll end up with is a loud strike. If the pitcher knows all you do on an inside pitch is hit the outside seam of the ball and rip it foul, whats he going to do? Pound you inside until you hit 2 foul and then your on the defensive and he has you. I just don't see the logic behind hooking these pitches foul all the time and not attempt to stay inside the ball and hit the ball "true".
If you "expose" the handle of your bat to early on this pitch all you'll end up with is a loud strike. If the pitcher knows all you do on an inside pitch is hit the outside seam of the ball and rip it foul, whats he going to do? Pound you inside until you hit 2 foul and then your on the defensive and he has you. I just don't see the logic behind hooking these pitches foul all the time and not attempt to stay inside the ball and hit the ball "true".
Gem,
I just don't see the logic behind hooking these pitches foul all the time and not attempt to stay inside the ball and hit the ball "true".[/QUOTE]
I don't recall saying pull the inside pitch foul all the time. I don't get upset if a kid hits the ball foul hard on a pitchers best fastball tight and in. This could be the best thing to do at the time and pitch. I'm all for hitting the ball between the lines and working to keep the ball fair. I just have a problem with a swing that ties the hitter up.
If you "expose" the handle of your bat to early on this pitch all you'll end up with is a loud strike.
Timing is everything to being a good hitter on all pitches and swing approaches. I don't care what approach you take.
If the pitcher knows all you do on an inside pitch is hit the outside seam of the ball and rip it foul, whats he going to do? Pound you inside until you hit 2 foul and then your on the defensive and he has you.
This doesn't mean the ball is going to be hit foul. This doesn't mean he is going to hit the same spot either. Timing and plate setup is important. The bottom line is it's a battle and pitchers are going to make good pitches and bad pitches whether your inside out or turn the bat you have to be on time. I can't recall a hitter I have trained that complained about pulling to many balls foul. If this became a problem I would look to see where the hitter was setup on the plate and other possible problems. I feel the approach that is being incorporated is working and until this doesn't work I will apply the formula.
EL,
Gem,
I just don't see the logic behind hooking these pitches foul all the time and not attempt to stay inside the ball and hit the ball "true".
I don't recall saying pull the inside pitch foul all the time. I don't get upset if a kid hits the ball foul hard on a pitchers best fastball tight and in. This could be the best thing to do at the time and pitch. I'm all for hitting the ball between the lines and working to keep the ball fair. I just have a problem with a swing that ties the hitter up.
If you "expose" the handle of your bat to early on this pitch all you'll end up with is a loud strike.
Timing is everything to being a good hitter on all pitches and swing approaches. I don't care what approach you take.
If the pitcher knows all you do on an inside pitch is hit the outside seam of the ball and rip it foul, whats he going to do? Pound you inside until you hit 2 foul and then your on the defensive and he has you.
This doesn't mean the ball is going to be hit foul. This doesn't mean he is going to hit the same spot either. Timing and plate setup is important. The bottom line is it's a battle and pitchers are going to make good pitches and bad pitches whether your inside out or turn the bat you have to be on time. I can't recall a hitter I have trained that complained about pulling to many balls foul. If this became a problem I would look to see where the hitter was setup on the plate and other possible problems. I feel the approach that is being incorporated is working and until this doesn't work I will apply the formula.
EL,[/QUOTE]
Learning how to stay inside the ball on inside pitches is a skill that I would want my kid's teacher to promote...its not "tying up" the swing; its an advanced swing. It sounds like you teach a "one approach to the ball" swing and hope that the pitcher makes a mistake. At least now I understand where you are coming from....That would not be my preferred approach, but different strokes for different folks. Thanks for taking time to discuss. jima
I don't recall saying pull the inside pitch foul all the time. I don't get upset if a kid hits the ball foul hard on a pitchers best fastball tight and in. This could be the best thing to do at the time and pitch. I'm all for hitting the ball between the lines and working to keep the ball fair. I just have a problem with a swing that ties the hitter up.
If you "expose" the handle of your bat to early on this pitch all you'll end up with is a loud strike.
Timing is everything to being a good hitter on all pitches and swing approaches. I don't care what approach you take.
If the pitcher knows all you do on an inside pitch is hit the outside seam of the ball and rip it foul, whats he going to do? Pound you inside until you hit 2 foul and then your on the defensive and he has you.
This doesn't mean the ball is going to be hit foul. This doesn't mean he is going to hit the same spot either. Timing and plate setup is important. The bottom line is it's a battle and pitchers are going to make good pitches and bad pitches whether your inside out or turn the bat you have to be on time. I can't recall a hitter I have trained that complained about pulling to many balls foul. If this became a problem I would look to see where the hitter was setup on the plate and other possible problems. I feel the approach that is being incorporated is working and until this doesn't work I will apply the formula.
EL,
Learning how to stay inside the ball on inside pitches is a skill that I would want my kid's teacher to promote...its not "tying up" the swing; its an advanced swing. It sounds like you teach a "one approach to the ball" swing and hope that the pitcher makes a mistake. At least now I understand where you are coming from....That would not be my preferred approach, but different strokes for different folks. Thanks for taking time to discuss. jima[/QUOTE]
Jima,
Learning how to stay inside the ball on inside pitches is a skill that I would want my kid's teacher to promote...its not "tying up" the swing; its an advanced swing.
I teach a swing that stays inside the ball on inside pitches. The pitch that Cameron hit in his clip was inside. I don't think you are duplicating what I teach. What I teach is an advanced swing.
It sounds like you teach a "one approach to the ball" swing and hope that the pitcher makes a mistake.
I teach the hitter to have an adjustable swing. I teach a swing that is proven to work.
and hope that the pitcher makes a mistake.
This is your thoughts not mine.
At least now I understand where you are coming from....That would not be my preferred approach, but different strokes for different folks. Thanks for taking time to discuss. jima[/QUOTE]
Jima,
I wouldn't say you know where I'm coming from. What I teach and how I teach has been working for a long time. What I teach and how I teach can truly only be understood in person. How can you invaladate a proven successful approach? Most coaches and instructors are looking for a proven approach. My approach is proven to work. Keep searching for your right fit. I will have a hitting CD soon that will define my approaches and is proven to create the high level swing. I believe you will then understand where I'm coming from. Good Luck!
EL,
Learning how to stay inside the ball on inside pitches is a skill that I would want my kid's teacher to promote...its not "tying up" the swing; its an advanced swing. It sounds like you teach a "one approach to the ball" swing and hope that the pitcher makes a mistake. At least now I understand where you are coming from....That would not be my preferred approach, but different strokes for different folks. Thanks for taking time to discuss. jima
Jima,
Learning how to stay inside the ball on inside pitches is a skill that I would want my kid's teacher to promote...its not "tying up" the swing; its an advanced swing.
I teach a swing that stays inside the ball on inside pitches. The pitch that Cameron hit in his clip was inside. I don't think you are duplicating what I teach. What I teach is an advanced swing.
It sounds like you teach a "one approach to the ball" swing and hope that the pitcher makes a mistake.
I teach the hitter to have an adjustable swing. I teach a swing that is proven to work.
and hope that the pitcher makes a mistake.
This is your thoughts not mine.
At least now I understand where you are coming from....That would not be my preferred approach, but different strokes for different folks. Thanks for taking time to discuss. jima[/QUOTE]
Jima,
I wouldn't say you know where I'm coming from. What I teach and how I teach has been working for a long time. What I teach and how I teach can truly only be understood in person. How can you invaladate a proven successful approach? Most coaches and instructors are looking for a proven approach. My approach is proven to work. Keep searching for your right fit. I will have a hitting CD soon that will define my approaches and is proven to create the high level swing. I believe you will then understand where I'm coming from. Good Luck!
EL,[/QUOTE]
Jima, You are 100% correct and what kills me guys like EL. love to get on here and talk down on people and I am sure one of his little butt buddies will respond in his defense. Telling kids to hit the inside pitch foul is this what the best are told . I am starting to wonder if this EL. is a t ball coach . I am wondering how many college kids he works with and are suceesful.
Is this what parents and instructors on this site believe? I will let them give their opinons.
EL,
Jima,
Learning how to stay inside the ball on inside pitches is a skill that I would want my kid's teacher to promote...its not "tying up" the swing; its an advanced swing.
I teach a swing that stays inside the ball on inside pitches. The pitch that Cameron hit in his clip was inside. I don't think you are duplicating what I teach. What I teach is an advanced swing.
It sounds like you teach a "one approach to the ball" swing and hope that the pitcher makes a mistake.
I teach the hitter to have an adjustable swing. I teach a swing that is proven to work.
and hope that the pitcher makes a mistake.
This is your thoughts not mine.
At least now I understand where you are coming from....That would not be my preferred approach, but different strokes for different folks. Thanks for taking time to discuss. jima
Jima,
I wouldn't say you know where I'm coming from. What I teach and how I teach has been working for a long time. What I teach and how I teach can truly only be understood in person. How can you invaladate a proven successful approach? Most coaches and instructors are looking for a proven approach. My approach is proven to work. Keep searching for your right fit. I will have a hitting CD soon that will define my approaches and is proven to create the high level swing. I believe you will then understand where I'm coming from. Good Luck!
EL,[/QUOTE]
Jima, You are 100% correct and what kills me guys like EL. love to get on here and talk down on people and I am sure one of his little butt buddies will respond in his defense. Telling kids to hit the inside pitch foul is this what the best are told . I am starting to wonder if this EL. is a t ball coach . I am wondering how many college kids he works with and are suceesful.[/QUOTE]
JayC - look, Erik and I may not agree on how best to instruct a kid to hit...but this doesn't make either of us a bad guy. You are really mad about something that you experienced in baseball...care to talk about what happened? jima
Jima,
Jima, You are 100% correct and what kills me guys like EL. love to get on here and talk down on people and I am sure one of his little butt buddies will respond in his defense. Telling kids to hit the inside pitch foul is this what the best are told . I am starting to wonder if this EL. is a t ball coach . I am wondering how many college kids he works with and are suceesful.
JayC,
we don't have anything else to discuss. Good luck!:waving
EL,
Go Cardinals
12-27-2007, 01:47 AM
I wouldn't really call myself his buddy... in fact, I don't think we've gotten along that well in the past. However, I'm going to say this... I think your wrong! I have never felt that erik talks down on people. I've always thought of him as a very nice and sincere person. I always have thought of him as someone his is here and who coaches just out of the kindness of his heart and his compassion for the game. I am sorry you feel this way about erik... however, I don't. So, thats to bad for you.
Erik, don't worry, I've always thought of you as a great and very nice person. I doubt many people think you "talk down" on people. I still view you w/ a lot of
respect no matter what anyone says about you.
JayC,
we don't have anything else to discuss. Good luck!:waving
EL,
EL, I agree so quit sending me private threads !
Keep turning that box .
EL, I agree so quit sending me private threads !
Keep turning that box .
JayC,
The box is a shape that a hitter may set with the arms. This can be other shapes just something to start from. This is just a setting. Please please clear up your misunderstandings of what I teach. You have a serious lack of mass on my approach. The box shape can be maintained up to a certain point with swings. This has been seen also by other people. Your fixation with incorrectly communicating my teaching to others displays how my teaching is way over your head. I see you jumping from one approach to the other never satisfied. If you JayC want to understand what I teach make an appointment. I will clearly show you in person what supports my instruction. The only reason you are venting this resentment towards me is your misunderstood words and meanings on my stuff and others. I can also add you display certain bipolar or antisocial characteristics that can be helped with medication.
EL,
BoardMember
12-27-2007, 01:55 PM
Erik, your arguing with a kid.
It's kind of like arguing with Richard.......:rofl: :eek: :rant:
JayC,
The box is a shape that a hitter may set with the arms. This can be other shapes just something to start from. This is just a setting. Please please clear up your misunderstandings of what I teach. You have a serious lack of mass on my approach. The box shape can be maintained up to a certain point with swings. This has been seen also by other people. Your fixation with incorrectly communicating my teaching to others displays how my teaching is way over your head. I see you jumping from one approach to the other never satisfied. If you JayC want to understand what I teach make an appointment. I will clearly show you in person what supports my instruction. The only reason you are venting this resentment towards me is your misunderstood words and meanings on my stuff and others. I can also add you display certain bipolar or antisocial characteristics that can be helped with medication.
EL,