What makes a explosive pitcher?

[RIstar]

As the thread title What makes an explosive pitcher?

[GFK]

As the thread title What makes an explosive pitcher?

You may find some value in the information in the following thread.

http://www.pitching-mechanics.org/vbforum/showthread.php?t=644&highlight=Pitching+Analysis

[TG Coach]

Should we ask Roger Clemens?

[Chris O'Leary]

You may find some value in the information in the following thread.

http://www.pitching-mechanics.org/vbforum/showthread.php?t=644&highlight=Pitching+Analysis

There are multiple differences between when Paul says and what the best pitchers actually do.

For example, this is not an accurate description of what Greg Maddux and Roger Clemens do...

"2. Hand Break. Really shouldn't be called and break should be called "elbow break". You don't break with the hands at least high-level players don't break with their hands. They take the ball out of the glove with their scapula action. The hands cannot do anything by themselves. They are moved by the combination of what happens at the elbow, shoulder and scapula. Most players use their hands to to take the ball out of the glove as opposed to the elbows (in reality their scapula)."

Neither is this...

"3. Elbow's should never drop any lower than the height of the hand break (elbow break, scapula break). Many/most players continued drop their hands, shoulders, elbows and everything else below the point at which they break their hands. Mechanically this does not assist in throwing the ball i.e. it actually destroys tempo and momentum build up."

Neither Greg Maddux nor Roger Clemens breaks their hands with their elbows. Instead, each leads with his hands. Watch how their elbows and hands drop after they break their hands. They also break their hands quite low, lower than I believe Nyman Advocates.

http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Pitching/Videos/Video_Pitching_GregMaddux_3B_001.gif

http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Pitching/Videos/Video_Pitching_RogerClemens_3B_001.gif

Also I learned here, you always need to compare what people say to what the best pitchers actually do.

[Chris O'Leary]

As the thread title What makes an explosive pitcher?

I'm not a big fan of the concept of explosiveness, because that implies rushing and trying to get too much from the stride.

Most great pitchers are more fluid than explosive.

[jima]

I'm not a big fan of the concept of explosiveness, because that implies rushing and trying to get too much from the stride.

Most great pitchers are more fluid than explosive.

I don't want to get on Paul's bad side, because I like alot of what he says....but my son naturally lifts the ball out with his elbow/scap but that motion, at times, seemed to interfere with getting core rotation...when he breaks like that he seems to rely more on his upper body for velocity and consequently spins open prematurely. His coach, as a drill, sometimes has him start his motion holding the ball, so there is no break....he seems to incorporate his lower body better this way. That being said, I think his natural arm action is what separates his velocity (for him) from those who don't have the natural velocity to pitch. Kind of a catch 22. (Chris, I don't know if that made much sense, sorry)

[XV84]

There are multiple differences between when Paul says and what the best pitchers actually do.

For example, this is not an accurate description of what Greg Maddux and Roger Clemens do...

"2. Hand Break. Really shouldn't be called and break should be called "elbow break". You don't break with the hands at least high-level players don't break with their hands. They take the ball out of the glove with their scapula action. The hands cannot do anything by themselves. They are moved by the combination of what happens at the elbow, shoulder and scapula. Most players use their hands to to take the ball out of the glove as opposed to the elbows (in reality their scapula)."


"The hands cannot do anything by themselves". I'm not sure why you have a hard time understanding this.

Also I don't understand why 2 pitchers as an example qualify as "most great pitchers".

I'm not a big fan of the concept of explosiveness, because that implies rushing and trying to get too much from the stride.

Most great pitchers are more fluid than explosive.

Throwing a baseball 90+ MPH is an explosive ballistic movement. You are the one implying that explosiveness is rushing. Explosiveness is explosiveness. Rushing is a timing problem. You can be quick or slow to the plate, you can still have timing problems.

Being "non-explosive", however you want to define that, does not guarantee no timing/rushing problems. Unless that is something you are guaranteeing.

[Chris O'Leary]

"The hands cannot do anything by themselves". I'm not sure why you have a hard time understanding this.

I understand it.

I just don't think you should break the hands with the elbows. I also don't see any great pitchers breaking their hands with their elbows.

The guys who do break their hands with their elbows tend to wind up on the DL.


"Also I don't understand why 2 pitchers as an example qualify as "most great pitchers".

They of course don't, but they are representative.

Here's Randy Johnson, another great who doesn't break his hands with his elbows and keeps his elbows quite low.

http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Pitching/Videos/Video_Pitching_RandyJohnson_Catcher_SuperSlowMotio n_002.gif


Throwing a baseball 90+ MPH is an explosive ballistic movement. You are the one implying that explosiveness is rushing. Explosiveness is explosiveness. Rushing is a timing problem. You can be quick or slow to the plate, you can still have timing problems.

Trying to be explosive can lead to rushing. It's also hard to find any great pitchers, and few active pitchers, who could accurately be described as explosive. Lincecum and Oswalt are a couple.

Also, just because you say it's an explosive movement doesn't make it so.

[Jon Doyle]

You can develop explosiveness without looking explosive to the naked eye.

In fact, you hit it right on the head...the great ones make it look easy, but they certainly are explosive.

[fastbal95]

The picture of Randy Johnson is a horrible representation of what a good pitcher should look like. He flys way out and supinates the releases of his pitches. He also scap loads which is anther injurious flaw. He has spent many a time on the DL. And if you think all his DL trips have been for his back or knee, you are sadly mistaken.

I will definately agree that pitchers can make explosiveness look effortless or eay. I would say that is when they are the most explosive, when it looks so easy. That is attained only through the right kind of training though. Everyone can do it, but not everyone does.

[Shake Zula]

I think what matters is how the pitcher moves before when the front foot lands. Josh Beckett looks fluid and slow before his handbreak, but he looks explosive just before his front foot lands and generates a great arm speed. It's all in 'intent'

[RIstar]

The picture of Randy Johnson is a horrible representation of what a good pitcher should look like. He flys way out and supinates the releases of his pitches. He also scap loads which is anther injurious flaw. He has spent many a time on the DL. And if you think all his DL trips have been for his back or knee, you are sadly mistaken.

I will definately agree that pitchers can make explosiveness look effortless or eay. I would say that is when they are the most explosive, when it looks so easy. That is attained only through the right kind of training though. Everyone can do it, but not everyone does.
Fastball 95 you are wrong about scap loading it does not cause injury UNLESS you think about it. THe body naturally loads the scapula when a player throws a baseball.

Also I think my motion is explosive but I find it easy to do it and it comes natural.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-EiJQut0624

I was at a New York Yankees game vs Boston Reds Soxs the two pitchers Josh Beckett and Chein Ming Wang. They don't look explosive but they are very explosive in there movement to the plate. Chein Ming Wang looks so smooth but the ball riffles out of his hand. Josh Beckett looks like he is taking his time but then he plants and explodes very fast.

[fastbal95]

RIstar,

I tend to agree with you about Beckett and Wang, especially Beckett. He is the best pitcher in the bigs right now, no doubt. He should have def beat C.C., aka the pull pitcher, for the CY Young.

But Im sorry, you are wrong about scap loading. It unneccesarily stresses the supscapularis muscle and will def cause injury over time.

By the way, I watched your video and you are an UCL injury waiting to happen. You might want to think about pendulem swinging your arm to prevent it. A lot of other problems too, but thats for another time.

[RIstar]

I hate to break it to you BUT ALL pro's scap load naturally without it your arm would not be safe to throw. I will get pictures of scap loading by the plenty.

http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Pitching/Examples/ScapularLoading.html

Take a look at the above link I was lazy and will use chris o leary site to show all pros scap load without thinking about it and it is safe.

Also I want you to PM me or tell me hear all the mechanical problems that you think I have please I would like as many views as I can get on the matter.

[Go Cardinals]

You can develop explosiveness without looking explosive to the naked eye.

In fact, you hit it right on the head...the great ones make it look easy, but they certainly are explosive.

Wtach dan haren. He's so slow and deliberate in his delivery, and yet he throws in the 90's. He has that pause. He is an amaing pitcher. He has so much pressence and control on the mound!

[Go Cardinals]

RIstar,

I tend to agree with you about Beckett and Wang, especially Beckett. He is the best pitcher in the bigs right now, no doubt. He should have def beat C.C., aka the pull pitcher, for the CY Young.

But Im sorry, you are wrong about scap loading. It unneccesarily stresses the supscapularis muscle and will def cause injury over time.

By the way, I watched your video and you are an UCL injury waiting to happen. You might want to think about pendulem swinging your arm to prevent it. A lot of other problems too, but thats for another time.

Too bad it doesn't. Forced scap loading is bad, natural scap loading is fine.

[fastbal95]

Well all the pro's do it so it must be safe, hahaha! That is one of the worst reasons ive heard for doing something in baseball. Just because someone, or any do something doesnt mean it should be copied and followed. Not scientific at all, terrible reason for doing something.

A lot, many many, pro's used steroids, Hgh, or greenies. Does that mean that it is safe and that everyone else should do it? Give me a break.

A lot, huge numbers, of pitchers in not only the show, but minor league ball, spend time on the DL some time throughout the year because of scap loading. You just don't know any better.

[Chris O'Leary]

A lot, huge numbers, of pitchers in not only the show, but minor league ball, spend time on the DL some time throughout the year because of scap loading. You just don't know any better.

Marshall's pitcher's scap load.

They just don't do it on purpose and keep their elbows below their shoulders, which is safe.

However, it's IMPOSSIBLE to throw hard and not have the elbows go behind the acromial plane.

If you want proof, see Frame 25 and Frame 26 of the Marshall thread I started.

[Go Cardinals]

Well all the pro's do it so it must be safe, hahaha! That is one of the worst reasons ive heard for doing something in baseball. Just because someone, or any do something doesnt mean it should be copied and followed. Not scientific at all, terrible reason for doing something.

A lot, many many, pro's used steroids, Hgh, or greenies. Does that mean that it is safe and that everyone else should do it? Give me a break.

A lot, huge numbers, of pitchers in not only the show, but minor league ball, spend time on the DL some time throughout the year because of scap loading. You just don't know any better.

Ypur taking the argument completely out of contex! don't do that. You know full well what the argument was. So no I'm not now endorsing steriods.

Since you need a colorful picture painted for you... here it goes...

If a pro can do it, and it doesn't hurt them, then guess what... it's ok!
Glavine is so injury prone right?
Maddux?
well... so they are not good to emulate. We shouldn't emulate any pro at all, and we should throw totally different, because you know better than them (all pros who knowingly scap load), and chris o'leary. So wow, the pros are wrong now anf your right...


I think I am going to trust the real expert here, in chris O'leary

http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Pitching/RethinkingPitching/Essays/ProperPitchingMechanics_GregMaddux.html


http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Pitching/ThePitchingMechanic/index.html

***read all of those***

[fastbal95]

Expert??? What are his credentials again??? Just a question??? How many pitchers are in the bigs in one season. You give TWO exampes of guys who havent been seriously injured in their careers. Pretty small sample if you ask me. Less than one percent.

By the way. Does everyone have the same genetics??? Pretty easy question. The answer is no. So if a "pro" can do something and not be hurt, does that mean that everyone can do it too??? Of course not!!!! Everyone has different genetics and different braking points.

If you think the O'leary is researching pitching injuries or ASMI is researching pitching injuries, give me a break. All they do is REPORT on what the "HOT" pitcher of the day does, and say well do that because this guy is successful. But what happens when they get injured? They just move on to the next guy. Remember when everyone claimed Prior had perfect mechanics, hahaha!!! What a joke. So I guess we will have to wait and see who the next big name pitcher is to get injured.

Everyone likes to mention Maddox and Glavine. Remember they at one time used to both throw at least 90? And I know they have aged and that plays a role in it, but if we could measure their extension and flexion range of motion, then you would see why they have lost velocity. Im sure they have some sort of loss of flexion and extension.

[RIstar]

I see you follow Dr. Marshall alot which is a bad thing IMO.

Also every I will say every MLB pitcher elbow goes behind there shoulder which is called scapula loading. I don't care what you say about Chris O Leary but he is right and I can prove the same thing with everyMLB pitcher if you give me a photo at landing.

On the other note I could ask Questions to you Fastball95 how hard do you throw if you follow Dr. Marshall. I have to say it's not close to the pro's if you follow him 100%.

I do not want to personally attack you because I could right 3 pages long proving you wrong about this subject and telling everyone that they shouldn't listen to you but I will not and leave this conversation in the eyes of the public for what it's worth.

[Shake Zula]

Scap loading has been around since the birth of baseball. Ignoring it would really hurt the potential... Mills believe that scap loading is a new concept by Nyman, but not at all...

That's one thing I disagree about Marshall. But I'm curious about all this 'pronation curve' and 'kinetic flow' that he talks about.

[fastbal95]

RIstar,

Ya you are right. Being able to pitch off a mound everyday and throw as hard as you can everyday is a bad thing. Can you pitch off of a mound throwing your hardest possible 7 days a week???

Because you can prove that every MLB pitcher scap loads doesnt mean anything. So what. If all MLB pitchers jumped off a bridge would you do it? I cant say that all scap load, because i havent seen ALL pitch, but Im sure that most of them actively do it. Again, just because they do it doesnt make it good or right. Thats a terrible reason to do something.

I throw plenty hard. You have never seen me throw in a game so how could you say I dont throw close to the pro's? hah. I played pro ball before I tore my labrum. Obviously I threw hard enough. Traditionally I through 88-91 mph as a lefthanded pitcher. When all is said and done I believe I will at least be back to 90 again, more like in the low to mid though. We shall see.

Im curious to see you write something 3 pages long proving Mike Marshall wrong. So go ahead and do it. And don't just use, because big league guys do it, as your reasons. Lets see some scientific evidence please. Do you have a PhD? or any degree at all? Not slamming you but just curious to see what level you are educated at.

Shake,

Not sure Ive heard Doc talk about Kinetic flow but I'll let you in on the curve. When you supinate a curveball, the ball first comes out of your hand on top. So your hand is on the bottom, the ball almost slips or pops out. When you pronate a curve you drive your middle finger through the ball and the ball comes out underneath your hand so where it looks like a fastball, until it drops drastically down. With high speed, 500 frames per second, we have found out that the typical supinated curve spins anywhere from 12 to 14 times before it crosses the plate. Our pronated curve has shown anywhere from 20 to 30 revolutions. This high spin velocity creates a sharper, harder break which Im sure you would agree would be a better quality curve. Also when we drive the curveball inside of vertical we can actually get the curve to break back towards the pitching arm. So a lefthanded curve, for example, would break into a lefty, and for a righty the opposite. I hope that helps.

[RIstar]

1st off I'm not going to write 3 pages because we all know that MLB scouts will not draft a Dr. Marshall pitcher and that one will not get to the MLB again. I do what the pro's do and if you want to follow down the wrong road go right ahead it's your choice.

Dr. Degrees mean nothing to me I do what the Pro's do. OO and the league that everyone trys to get into is the MLB so I think I will try to do what they do and get the best I can at it.

Dick Mills, Dr. Marshall and also Paul Nymen are all gurus that THINK they know the right way to throw but they are all off a little.

[fastbal95]

I think we can all agree that the shortest distance between 2 points is a straight line. Right??? Ok so if its the shortest, then it would be the quickest also. I hope everyone understands this so far.

When you scapular load, you bring your elbow past the acromial line of your shoulders. If you bring your arm 6 inches past your acromial line for example, then when you bring it the other way to throw, it will have to be 6 inches further away from your body. Does everyone understand that?? Its called Centripetal force. The further you scap load, the further you throw your arm away from your body, thereby creating less and less of a straight path towards home plate. Wasting force off in a tangent line to the arc that your arm path creates.

If two people of equal speed ran a 60 yard dash, and one ran in a straight line, and the other fan 60 yards in a circle, who would win? Does anyone care to take a guess?

[Jake Patterson]

Dick Mills, Dr. Marshall and also Paul Nymen are all gurus that THINK they know the right way to throw but they are all off a little.

Some are less "off" than others.

[RIstar]

LoL of well how bought this.

Scap loading also helps create a stretch in the core which is the reason why you can scap load because you can then rapidlly rotate faster then not creating that large stretch and pull.

Shortest distance does not matter in throwing a baseball. Throwing a baseball is all about how much force you can put on the ball not how quick it gets from point a to point b in a straight line.

[fastbal95]

How do WE all know that scouts will not draft a marshall pitcher or that one will not ever get to the show again, just curious???? Only time will tell I guess.

Your words tell everything. That you don't care about education or what knowledge is shows that your are ignorant and cannot think for yourself but just go along with whatever other people are doing instead of learning for yourself.

Doc has never injured a pitcher he has trained. Mills ruined his sons arm and yet still teaches the same stuff. Im not so sure about Nyman because I dont know much about him, but to put these two in the same category is laughable. Ask Tom House how many arms he has ruined also. Maybe the best one is hmmm, Mark Prior. What a shame.

[RIstar]

Some are less "off" than others.

Yes some are more then others

For example Dick Mills think strength is not needed really only about 4 weeks of strength exercises then ONLY Full body plyometrics exercises. That is really not true pitching you need strength. Also plyometrics will not keep the 4 weeks of strength gain there.

[RIstar]

Ok you know nothing about Dick Mills he has changed his approach from MLB mechanics to Momentum mechanics. Tom House does not ruin pitchers lol Mark Prior doesn't have the right kind of mechanics he puts to much stress on the arm doing the IW. Also Paul Idk much about him only that he likes pitchers to try to scap load and focus to much on the arm.

All in All non are right

Till I see a Dr. Marshall student get to the MLB then I might look at it. But the mechanics do not help with creating the most Power that the human body is uses to in MLB mechanics we will call them.

[Postblank]

Till I see a Dr. Marshall student get to the MLB then I might look at it. But the mechanics do not help with creating the most Power that the human body is uses to in MLB mechanics we will call them.Are we not counting Sparks anymore?

[fastbal95]

"Throwing a baseball is all about how much force you can put on the ball not how quick it gets from point a to point b in a straight line."


how fast the ball gets from the hand to the plate is what most people would call velocity. Youre right, thats not important in pitching at all. If you can throw a ball with the same force, but a shorter distance, then it will get to where you want it to go faster. Youre right, not important. Im sorry.

[APPpitch]

Careful RIstar. At only age 16 with poor spelling and grammar skills, and an insatiable desire to hear a hundred opinions on your own personal mechanics while hosting a site touting your experience as a qualified pitching instructor; you are digging wells with no support!

Get off the step stool and practice the art of listening. Since most people have no real idea what Mike Marshall is talking about anyway, I thinks it's fair to say that you couldn't write more than a vague paragraph.

Relax kid. It's a long journey to Pro ball. Get through High School first.

-scott

[fastbal95]

RIstar,

First, can you try to use some better grammar. Im having a hard time trying to put your thoughts together. Thanks.

Secondly, Tom House was quoted as saying he ruined something like 60% of the pitchers he supposedly has trained; like a two day camp will do something for you. lol. Remember, Mark Prior supposedly had perfect mechanics, taught by House. Then what happened?

Third, again your reasoning for not looking at Doc's mechanics is very juvenile. Again, just because someone else can do something, doesnt make it the way to go. Do some research on your own. How do you know that his mechanics dont allow for the most power? Have you tried doing his program? And dont say, well i tried throwing his way and i could only throw 50 mph. Because you need a certain level of strength to throw our way; thats what the wrist weights and lead balls are for.

[RIstar]

I'm just making a point that all theses Gurus are wrong with mechanics. They need to all stop trying to make money and also try to re-invent mechanics. For instance, Dick Mills and Momentum pitching, or Dr. Marshall with his mechanics or Paul with his type of mechanics.

[fastbal95]

RIstar,

You are showing all of us how little you really know. Doc's website is free, his video is free, his advice, if you want to email him questions, is free. Ya, he's really in this for the money!!!! He is the only one. He charges us to train so he can pay the mortgage on the property. That's about it. Two days of training costs 20 bucks. How much would it cost to work with any of these other guys for 2 days??? Hundreds or thousands of dollars I'm sure.

In America today, its a shame, that the more someone charges, the more the ignornant masses believe them or think they are right.

Do you even know what Doc teaches, or why he teaches it? Seriously, I doubt it.

[Jake Patterson]

...or Paul with his type of mechanics.
How did he get into the discussion??

[TL_Dad]

Not sure Ive heard Doc talk about Kinetic flow but I'll let you in on the curve. When you supinate a curveball, the ball first comes out of your hand on top. So your hand is on the bottom, the ball almost slips or pops out. When you pronate a curve you drive your middle finger through the ball and the ball comes out underneath your hand so where it looks like a fastball, until it drops drastically down. With high speed, 500 frames per second, we have found out that the typical supinated curve spins anywhere from 12 to 14 times before it crosses the plate. Our pronated curve has shown anywhere from 20 to 30 revolutions. This high spin velocity creates a sharper, harder break which Im sure you would agree would be a better quality curve. Also when we drive the curveball inside of vertical we can actually get the curve to break back towards the pitching arm. So a lefthanded curve, for example, would break into a lefty, and for a righty the opposite. I hope that helps.

I am interested in learning more about the pronated curve. Can you explain?

[fastbal95]

Sure, what exactly do you want to know. Was what I wrote earlier not enough info? Be glad to help you in any way I can, just let me know.

[XV84]

I am interested in learning more about the pronated curve. Can you explain?

There are high-speed videos at Marshall's website if you want to see how it is thrown.

[Shake Zula]

The big irony is that right after Will Carroll wrote 'Saving the Pitcher' with a huge support from Tom House, Prior became an injury prone. Just not a great timing. The book also had Prior as a very healthy pitcher...

Cole Hamels had learned a lot from House in his HS days according to one of prospect scouting books I've read and I do believe he had some shoulder problems in the past.

I heard a lot about Momentum Pitching by DM, and I do see some things that are lacking greatly to generate maximum velocity. Not a good option unless deception is your ultimate goal

[XFactor]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hAviGQNvJrE

Other than that, I really have no interest in getting into this... whatever it may be called.

[fastbal95]

I remember reading "Saving the Pitcher". Interesting read, its just too bad Will Carroll is misinformed about a lot. Prior is such a huge genetic talent, its really a shame he was taught a horrible way to pitch.


WOW,

one of the worst motions I have seen (youtube video). This pitcher is in for some groin problems, that is for sure, among other problems. But hey, if it works for him, than more power to him I guess. If he can hit 87 if he really did, as a 16 yr old with that horrible motion, he is highly gentically gifted and should be able to throw much harder with proper training.

[Postblank]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hAviGQNvJrE

Other than that, I really have no interest in getting into this... whatever it may be called.What the hell is that? I can see why people might think a leg kick might add something without adequate education on the topic, but that is ludicrous.

[JK-CA]

How can anyone learn from this discourse? Everyone has a dog in the fight. If someone can pick up high level mechanics from these threads, I'll be impressed.

[Postblank]

How can anyone learn from this discourse? Everyone has a dog in the fight. If someone can pick up high level mechanics from these threads, I'll be impressed.
Dog fighting is illegal, sir.

[APPpitch]

Quote:
Originally Posted by XFactor
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hAviGQNvJrE

Now there's a pitcher with an agenda. If I was facing him I 'd run out of the box like a "Benchwarmer".

Nothing is more reassuring to a hitter than a nice slow and easy motion where they step 1 foot to the side and take three years to get it going. Give me that any day.

I don't know where today's kids got taught the still frame delivery. But what an advantage that is to a hitter. Maybe it's those mechanical pitching machines where you watch the ball slowly crank, slot and release.

When I was a kid, we all imitated Koufax, Whitey Ford, Tom Seaver, Nolan Ryan and of course Luis Tiant!

[Deemax]

When I was a kid, we all imitated Koufax, Whitey Ford, Tom Seaver, Nolan Ryan.


....As well you should have.

[APPpitch]

"What the hell is that? I can see why people might think a leg kick might add something without adequate education on the topic, but that is ludicrous."

Only if it's easy to hit.

-scott

[TL_Dad]

Sure, what exactly do you want to know. Was what I wrote earlier not enough info? Be glad to help you in any way I can, just let me know.

I am wanting to know how to throw it. I may teach it to my son, but I need to know more about it.

[Shake Zula]

WOW,

one of the worst motions I have seen (youtube video). This pitcher is in for some groin problems, that is for sure, among other problems. But hey, if it works for him, than more power to him I guess. If he can hit 87 if he really did, as a 16 yr old with that horrible motion, he is highly gentically gifted and should be able to throw much harder with proper training.

I don't think long stride generally mean groin problem (many hard throwers generate long stride...). But I think he's throwing 87 because his back foot has dragged away from the rubber for like half a foot. Is it legal? Anyway, Momentum Pitching, I think has ignored the important aspects of muscular actions and horizontal rotation

What I mean by horizontal rotation is that pitchers throw hard when they rotate toward 1B (for right handers) rather than to home. Rotating toward home would be diving... Randy Johnson usually finishes his body towards 3B and both Verlander and Zumaya have their body falling toward 1B too

[fastbal95]

TL,

you should go to drmikemarshall.com and watch his video on his website. It would be really hard for you to read my descriptions of how to throw it and try and teach it to your son. Watching it on video would be much easier. It is far better than the traditional supinated curveball, that is for sure. And it will not injure your sons arm. If you have any other questions, let me know.

Shake,

Its not exactly the enormous stride that causes the groin issues, its trying to recover the pitching foot, which stays back by the rubber. But in reality, the farther the stride, the farther you need to recover your pitching foot. When you have your foot parallel to the pitching rubber, in order to bring it back towards your body after you throw the ball, you need to use your adductor brevis muscle which is very small and not very powerful compared to say the muscles of your quadriceps. For example, when we throw we keep our pitching foot perpendicular to the rubber, or pointing straight towards home plate. Then we walk off the mound and to bring our pitching foot ahead of our body we use the quadiceps muscle group which is much much bigger and more powerful than the small adductor brevis. Imagine walking sideways all day and see how sore your groin would get compared to just walking normally, I hope this is, at least, a decent example.

Also, you speak of rotating forward as being diving. That would be true for people that bend over when you pitch. We do not bend over, in fact we stay tall and lean back. The lean back creates more force towards second base, which in turn allows us to apply more force towards home plate. Think of a figure skater. A figure skater can rotate the fastest when the stay tall. Same principle applys to pitching. When those pitches you mentioned above fall off toward either base, they apply force not directly towards home plate, which wastes force. You want all the force can manage to go directly towards home plate, straight line. With that said, the reason they fall that way is because they pull their pitching arm across their body which pulls their body also in that direction. I hope this makes sense to you.

[jima]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hAviGQNvJrE

Other than that, I really have no interest in getting into this... whatever it may be called.

Reminds me a bit of Linceum...pretty neat...good athlete. If he throws like that from the stretch, stealing will be easy....maybe no one will get on.

[fastbal95]

Lincecum was the first person that came to mind when I saw this video also. Second thought was OUCH!!!

[XV84]

Reminds me a bit of Linceum...pretty neat...good athlete. If he throws like that from the stretch, stealing will be easy....maybe no one will get on.

It takes him 34 frames from first move until release. At 30 frames per second, that's .033 second per frame. That comes out to 1.13 seconds until release. Is he really that slow? What is the quickest a MLB pitcher gets to release point?

These two MLB pitchers take the same amount of time until release. Are they too slow?

http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa173/xvue84/pitching%20clips/momentumVSsmithrelease.gif
http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa173/xvue84/pitching%20clips/momentumVSmarmolrelease.gif

[jamesh23]

[QUOTE=XV84;1076580]It takes him 34 frames from first move until release. At 30 frames per second, that's .033 second per frame. That comes out to 1.13 seconds until release. Is he really that slow? What is the quickest a MLB pitcher gets to release point?

These two MLB pitchers take the same amount of time until release. Are they too slow?

QUOTE]

that kid does remind me of lincecum except it doesnt look like lincecum jumps off the mound as much but it does look similar, would him dragging his foot decrease his stride? say he didnt drag the foot that bad would he be able to get more stride length and more velocity? also would that kinda delivery work for increasing velocity and make it harder for pitchers to hit him? I know it would look funny and people will make fun of him but if he gets outs whats to be ashamed of?

[Jake Patterson]

It takes him 34 frames from first move until release. At 30 frames per second, that's .033 second per frame. That comes out to 1.13 seconds until release. Is he really that slow? What is the quickest a MLB pitcher gets to release point?

These two MLB pitchers take the same amount of time until release. Are they too slow?

http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa173/xvue84/pitching%20clips/momentumVSsmithrelease.gif
http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa173/xvue84/pitching%20clips/momentumVSmarmolrelease.gif

No one sees any potential problems with hyperextension of his left knee??

[APPpitch]

I'm adding my recent post here too because the same kid has reappeared.


Quote:
Originally Posted by jamesh23
Alright So I admit the explosive pitching thread got me riled up once that clip was posted of the kid with weird lookin mechanics I looked into whats called momentum pitching what he demonstrated and it says thats how some pitchers used to pitch back in the 70's and it could greatly improve velocity, I could see how because the body is moving faster and theres a bigger stride here are some vids

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hAviG...eature=related

slow version of above vid
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pBIHaQx0IGo&NR=1

some others doing it

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xJiWU...eature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qxmhZ...eature=related

so what do you all think about it? legit way to increase velocity?

***

Mills/Rushall admire this kid for his willingness to move his body in an explosive manner but this kid is not what they promote and have given this kid advice on toning down this leaping delivery and to refine it.

After spending a good deal of time reading and learning what Dick Mills is teaching, he is a huge fan of Nolan Ryan and Tim Lincecum. Heck, the two of them head his website All About Pitching dot com. He also likes Whitey Ford and Sandy Koufax. Nolan Ryan epitomizes everything Mills believes is right in a delivery (except the ultra high leg lift) and simply points to his 25 years of being able to throw 95mph without injury. Lincecum is a new breed of explosiveness and Mills likes this kid because he is using his entire body (all 160lbs) to throw 95mph. To a slightly lesser degree, Mills likes Beckett but was more of a fan of Beckett 3-4 years ago when he moved much faster at the beginning of his delivery. Mills loves Matsuzaka but hates the pause at the beginning of his delivery. He also admires that guys work ethic. Mills enjoys CC Sabathia and is impressed at how well a man of his size gets his body moving.

If I had to guess, 99% of you also find these pitchers enjoyable to watch. After reading the crap most other "gurus" spew, I find this kind of simple, back to basics, philosophy to be very refreshing.

Most videos on You Tube under the Momentum Pitching heading are of kids willing to buck the current trend and go back to a delivery reminiscent of the 40's through the 70's. Some have gone too far, and some don't really get it, which is why Dick Mills came out with a Momentum Pitching DVD recently. I have watched this. If you like the way Whitey Ford, Ron Guidry, and a host of others from the 60's and 70's pitched by stepping back and stepping forward with their hips driving without any hesitations into a stride length 100% of their height, you will find the DVD very familiar, simple, and fluid.

No gimmicks. No fancy explanations. No fancy terms to make him "look smarter", no ego.

If you are not a fan of the HOF's Dick Mills is a fan of then you are either being misled by others who want you to believe he is crazy or you are too young to remember these guys who successfully pitched their way into the record books.

And yes, I have spent time with House, Wolforth, gave Marshall an academic whirl, liked old school Thurston for a time, and settled on Mills for me and my son. At 14, and using Mills program, not always to the letter, meaning sometimes we only give half an effort and don't put all the work in; he has never had any arm trouble. Never complains of pain in his arm, only that his legs get tired after 6-7 innings of good effort, has pretty good control and throws above average. 74-77. He doesn't throw a curve and only gets into real trouble when he tips off his changeup to the 3-4-5 hitters. Like most kids.

Well, thats all I got to say about that. "Gump"

Hope that helps some in search of answers to the big mystery of pitching.

-scott

[Drill]

I just want to know is he accurate. If he throws hard and is not accurate whats the point. Oh can he throw a change up with that same motion.

If he can throw hard like he said in the video and throw a change up low and away or in, with the same pitching motion as his 87 mph pitch..... I say good for him and the school that will recruit him.


drill

[jima]

It takes him 34 frames from first move until release. At 30 frames per second, that's .033 second per frame. That comes out to 1.13 seconds until release. Is he really that slow? What is the quickest a MLB pitcher gets to release point?

These two MLB pitchers take the same amount of time until release. Are they too slow?

http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa173/xvue84/pitching%20clips/momentumVSsmithrelease.gif
http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa173/xvue84/pitching%20clips/momentumVSmarmolrelease.gif

I'm really not into it enough to put a stopwatch to it...but anyone who jumps like that has to give a hint or move as to when he will begin his jump forward...that is when the runner will get his advantage.

[APPpitch]

Does it really matter?

Today there are only about 5 lefties with "great" moves and well, I don't know how many righties have an edge, so... if he moves to the plate as fast as any competitive pitcher...

Does it really matter?

Probably not.

I still laugh at how Billy Wagner let Jason Werth steal second and third without a look or throw and lost the game this past season against the Phils.

[jima]

I'm probably old school...but I think it matters.

[XV84]

I'm probably old school...but I think it matters.

Holding runners are overrated for MLB pitchers. There are some pretty good names at the bottom of the list for Caught Stealing % against (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/stats/pitching?sort=caughtStealingPct&split=127&league=mlb&season=2007&seasonType=2&type=pitch4&ageMin=17&ageMax=51&hand=a&pos=all&minip=140&qual=false&count=81).

[jima]

Holding runners are overrated for MLB pitchers. There are some pretty good names at the bottom of the list for Caught Stealing % against (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/stats/pitching?sort=caughtStealingPct&split=127&league=mlb&season=2007&seasonType=2&type=pitch4&ageMin=17&ageMax=51&hand=a&pos=all&minip=140&qual=false&count=81).

Whose fault, pitcher or catcher? If holding runners on is overrated, why do championship teams still move runners, via bunt, in a close game. They are giving up a run to get a guy to second. Just my take.

[XV84]

Whose fault, pitcher or catcher? If holding runners on is overrated, why do championship teams still move runners, via bunt, in a close game. They are giving up a run to get a guy to second. Just my take.


Because they don't want to look like idiots and would rather play it "safe". It's all strategy and playing the percentages. A successful bunt will move a runner over, yes that increases your chances of scoring those runners, but you gave up an out. That out just decreased your chances of scoring those runners you just moved. So basically you haven't done anything to help, or hurt, your team. It just "looks" better.

An intentional bunt that moves the runner(s) has the same value as an "accidental" groundout or flyout that moves the runner(s) over.

I don't know who's fault it is because I don't know the "to plate" times of pitchers and the "home to second" times of catchers. Also, how a pitcher pitcher goes from their "take the sign" position to the set position can also have an effect on a runners lead into their secondary lead. There are probably some other factors that I'm overlooking, but you get what I'm saying.

[Go Cardinals]

Because they don't want to look like idiots and would rather play it "safe". It's all strategy and playing the percentages. A successful bunt will move a runner over, yes that increases your chances of scoring those runners, but you gave up an out. That out just decreased your chances of scoring those runners you just moved. So basically you haven't done anything to help, or hurt, your team. It just "looks" better.

An intentional bunt that moves the runner(s) has the same value as an "accidental" groundout or flyout that moves the runner(s) over.

I don't know who's fault it is because I don't know the "to plate" times of pitchers and the "home to second" times of catchers. Also, how a pitcher pitcher goes from their "take the sign" position to the set position can also have an effect on a runners lead into their secondary lead. There are probably some other factors that I'm overlooking, but you get what I'm saying.

Thats not true. Which is easier... a single or two singles w/ less outs? When being succesful is 3 out of 10, you can't say 1 out will make that much of a difference. Your missing that in your theory.

[XV84]

Thats not true. Which is easier... a single or two singles w/ less outs? When being succesful is 3 out of 10, you can't say 1 out will make that much of a difference. Your missing that in your theory.

Singles have nothing to do with what I just posted. I'm speaking strictly about bunts. If you want to find out the value of a single, double, triple, hr, or walk go here: http://www.tangotiger.net/runscreated.html

A bunt is a ball put into play that results in an out. A single is a type of hit. A hit is a ball put into play that results in zero outs.

Check out this thread on the value of offensive baseball events http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=70358&highlight=bunt

More stats analysis on bunts here: http://www.insidethebook.com/ee/index.php/site/archives/
Just Ctrl+F and type in "bunt".

[Go Cardinals]

Singles have nothing to do with what I just posted. I'm speaking strictly about bunts. If you want to find out the value of a single, double, triple, hr, or walk go here: http://www.tangotiger.net/runscreated.html

A bunt is a ball put into play that results in an out. A single is a type of hit. A hit is a ball put into play that results in zero outs.

Check out this thread on the value of offensive baseball events http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=70358&highlight=bunt

More stats analysis on bunts here: http://www.insidethebook.com/ee/index.php/site/archives/
Just Ctrl+F and type in "bunt".

Your missing the point... I am saying that a bunt is valuable, because 1 single (easiest type of hit) w/ 2 out is easier than 2 hits w/ 1 out. Since that is true, bunting does play a role. 1 single is harder to get than 2 outs agreed? ... since you have to obviously agree... now I am saying that since getting a hit is so hard, you have a higher percentage of getting 1 single vs 2 singles or a double. Therefore, it is not a "looks" thing. It is a good strategy in some cases!

[XV84]

Your missing the point... I am saying that a bunt is valuable, because 1 single (easiest type of hit) w/ 2 out is easier than 2 hits w/ 1 out. Since that is true, bunting does play a role. 1 single is harder to get than 2 outs agreed? ... since you have to obviously agree... now I am saying that since getting a hit is so hard, you have a higher percentage of getting 1 single vs 2 singles or a double. Therefore, it is not a "looks" thing. It is a good strategy in some cases!

I'm not suggesting a bunt in any specific type of situation. I'm saying that a bunt in regards to all situations is not that valuable. If you check out the second link, there is a list that ranks the value of each event.

Show me the research or stats that says "1 single (easiest type of hit) w/ 2 out is easier than 2 hits w/ 1 out". Just because you "feel" that this is true doesn't make it true. It's just perception. What I stated are not what I feel. It is based on years of data.

In short-term cases and small sample sizes, yes bunts may have value, but over the course of a 162-game season, bunts in general don't have much value.

[jima]

XV84 - first you said that the ability to hold a runner on first was overrated. Then you suggest that giving up an out to move a runner to second is not good strategy. Can you have it both ways?

[Go Cardinals]

Show me the research or stats that says "1 single (easiest type of hit) w/ 2 out is easier than 2 hits w/ 1 out". Just because you "feel" that this is true doesn't make it true. It's just perception. What I stated are not what I feel. It is based on years of data.


The fact that a MIT math major agrees w/ me is my research and evidence. What's the success rate of a hit? Which is easier, 2 outs for 2 hits or 1 out for 1 hit? When 3 for ten is successful, 1 hit is easier than two... here's the math...

Say you have 2 good hitters coming up... they are both .300 hitters. 30 % of the time, they get hits. That means 70% of the time, they are both not getting hits. Don't forget how hard it is to hit .300 in the mlb... So now which is easier, 1 hit or two hits? Its just like saying which is easier, winning a game of black jack once or twice? You could gamble or go for it, or you can try to get the easier one.

I hope this makes sense to you, if not, I'll have to get a MIT math major and a Harvard Law school graduate to explain it to you.

[fastbal95]

I would be shocked if they took any math classes, let along advance math, in Law school. lol

Maybe this should be in another thread. Im not sure how whether or not a bunt is important or if a one hit with two outs in harder to get than two hits with one out makes a pitcher explosvie or not.