Lead Arm Extension 2

[mbs]

Because the last thread turned into a push/no-push thread and then got so diluted, I thought I would start another one to answer JayC's question on Yeager and lead arm extension:

JayC
I am trying to figure out what Yeager is saying and trying to figure out if he is right . The part about lead arm extension . He is saying lead arm extension at seperation back towards the catcher or loaded posistion and keep extension thru contact . This doesn't go along with Slaught or the PCR guys does it. Sorry this may be a repeated question but this sounds wrong .

my response:
Yeager on extension: He drives home the point that the extension should be "relaxed" and NOT locked out--and that adjustments can be made on lead arm extension, "especially if the hitter is late on an inside pitch.

The "early lead arm extension" he talks about occurs during the back leg push when the extension occurs as a COMBINATION of the body being shifted away from the hands and the hands reaching back....

On the Barfield analysis sheet, he even lists degrees of flexion the hitter should obtain:

Back leg Load 130 deg
Back leg Push 140 deg
Front leg block 150 deg
front leg push 158 deg

reference: 180 deg would be fully extended and 90 deg would be maintaining the "L" in the front arm....




JayC--I suggest you open your mind--turn away from the "box" and squishing the bug--and spend some time with the DVDs--some people don't like some of Yeager's terminology, but as far as describing and explaining the MLB swing, no video has ever come close to Yeager's....

JayC:

This doesn't go along with the PCR guys.


And not anything Yeager says goes along with PCR..If continuity with PCR is what you were looking for, you will be MOST DISAPPOINTED...

[FiveFrameSwing]

Yeager:

The role of the upper body is to remain loose like the end of a whip so that momentum can be transferred. Stiff whip can not transfer momentum.

Beyond relaxation, the upper body really has one main goal and that’s to gain maximum extension during the stride, while maintaining the release angle or the cock of the wrist for as long as possible.

This follows with our same overall goals, which is pushing hard against the ground resulting in body segment separation. The pushes get the hips in front and by extending at the lead arm, as can be seen with many fine hitters, ... keeps the torso behind the hips, ... it keeps the shoulders behind the torso, ... it keeps the arms behind the shoulders, ... and keeping the wrist cocked keeps the bat behind the arms.

The best hitters maintain this lead arm extended, wrist cocked position, longer than most. And they normally get better extension than others. The lead arm stays extended all the way through contact. So you gain extension during the stride and you want to maintain that extension all the way through contact.

Again, keeping the arm extended keeps the torso behind the hips. Once the torso begins to unwind you keep the extension, that keeps the shoulders back. And once the shoulders begin to unwind the arm stays extended to keep the arm behind the shoulder. And once the arms finally come around you want to maintain the cock of the wrist to keep the hands and bat behind the arm.

[Lady_Knights]

Then could someone explain to me why alot of the great hitters have a bent lead arm at contact, maintaining the "box"? I actually see this more often then extension throughout the swing.

[Drill]

Then could someone explain to me why alot of the great hitters have a bent lead arm at contact, maintaining the "box"? I actually see this more often then extension throughout the swing.

I have asked the same question also

what makes an arm bar an arm bar when there is extension


The way I understand it its the MLB swing hybrid so to speak. If you keep your rear elbow in close to your body you still maintain a power turn on the ball.

Ball position or a late swing will cause more of a box effect. If a person swing timing was right he would of hit the ball more out in front and be at full extension on the inside pitch and pull it down the line, you still get the same thing when you cramp yourself and arms give that bent lead arm at contact look.

OK I will duck now because I am sure I just may have crossed the line somewhere in swing mechanics.


drill

[Lady_Knights]

Because the last thread turned into a push/no-push thread and then got so diluted, I thought I would start another one to answer JayC's question on Yeager and lead arm extension:

JayC
Yeager on extension: He drives home the point that the extension should be "relaxed" and NOT locked out--and that adjustments can be made on lead arm extension, "especially if the hitter is late on an inside pitch.

The "early lead arm extension" he talks about occurs during the back leg push when the extension occurs as a COMBINATION of the body being shifted away from the hands and the hands reaching back....

On the Barfield analysis sheet, he even lists degrees of flexion the hitter should obtain:

Back leg Load 130 deg
Back leg Push 140 deg
Front leg block 150 deg
front leg push 158 deg

reference: 180 deg would be fully extended and 90 deg would be maintaining the "L" in the front arm....


my response:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extension_%28kinesiology%29

Extension is when the arm is straight, but you are trying to tell us that extension has various degrees of flexion in it? You can't have extension and flexion at the same time!! What are you trying to say?

[BoardMember]

Knight. Your confusing "Extended" with "Extension". :lookitup

Extended is straight. Extension is the "movement of a joint".

Go read your reference again.......:highfive:


Extension is a movement of a joint. For example, extension is produced by extending the flexed elbow. The arm is now straight; it has been extended...........Flexion decreases the angle between the bones of the limb at a joint, while extension increases it.
.

Before you post on lead arm extension, maybe you should have a better understanding of what it is.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extension_%28kinesiology%29

Extension is when the arm is straight, but you are trying to tell us that extension has various degrees of flexion in it? You can't have extension and flexion at the same time!! What are you trying to say?

[Lady_Knights]

Now I understand....

[Shake Zula]

Dr. Yeager says that extending the lead arm increases the stretch reflex and I do think the instances where you see 'the box' is when the pitcher throws to the inside

[Drill]

Dr. Yeager says that extending the lead arm increases the stretch reflex and I do think the instances where you see 'the box' is when the pitcher throws to the inside

Or the hitter is jammed or late in his swing, but as you can see in the MLB clips that they have the strength to make up for there mistakes(if you want to call them that). Maybe this is not a mistake but just a differant way to still have the body connect/hit the ball.

I was watching a MLB game one night and a player put the ball over the fence just with perfect timing after being fooled on the pitch with hitting/swinging the bat with just wrists. He was noticeably laughing about the ball just clearing the right field fence. He was just trying to protect the plate and hit an outside pitch. Was one of the most amazing home runs I ever saw that should of not been. My son and I slow-moded his swing on our DVR a few time just to see if we really saw what we saw.

There are all kind of to swing theories out here and I am sure 10 years down the road someone else will find some kind of Kinetic link we never seen before in the body and swinging the bat.



drill

[swingbuilder]

what makes an arm bar an arm bar when there is extension


If the extension is achieved by pushing the hands back and extending the elbow joint by using the arm then its wrong and a bar.

If it is achieved by the transfer then the lead arm extension is a result of the transfer (good arm bar)(LOL). The cause is not in the arm nor is it started with the arm.

[FiveFrameSwing]

If the extension is achieved by pushing the hands back and extending the elbow joint by using the arm then its wrong and a bar.

If it is achieved by the transfer then the lead arm extension is a result of the transfer (good arm bar)(LOL). The cause is not in the arm nor is it started with the arm.

You might wish to review Donny's notes. He agreed with Yeager and understood that the lead arm extension took place during the weight shift forward.

[swingbuilder]

5,

I dont disagree when it happens. It happens with transfer. The tranfer is the cause (good arm bar:). The cause isnt the lead arm. What I see is kids extending the lead arm back first, before the transfer, by pushing the hands back using the lead arm to do so. Bad arm bar!

[BoardMember]

5, It happens with transfer. The transfer is the cause (good arm bar:).

If it is achieved by the transfer then the lead arm extension is a result of the transfer (good arm bar)(LOL).

Mr. Good Bar, would you please explain the mechanics of this thing called "the transfer" how it causes this "good arm bar".

Thx......

[LClifton]

You can extend the angle at the elbow joint and the arm may not be straight, but straight(er).
Extension vs. Locked is the way I describe it. Could be wrong..

The extension can be FELT in the hands, the shoulder area.

With your top hand (not 100% accurate) remaining in the same place, push the knob of the bat toward the catcher.

With your top hand in place raise your rear elbow and pull it slightly behind you.

With your top hand in place move your lead arm elbow behind your belt buckle.

The elbow joint angle increases, generally, with one of the above. It has extended but not achieved a locked out ---HYPER extended state.

One of these may work with a student, IMO, it happens ideally during the stride, loading the upper body last.

Very good point here that goes with the above. Otherwise you get some counter-rotation.
The role of the upper body is to remain loose like the end of a whip so that momentum can be transferred. Stiff whip can not transfer momentum.

[Drill]

Arm barring happens when you don't keep the rear elbow close to your body is the way I understand it. Than you extended both arm, hence the long sweeping swing. Please don't get this mixed up with full extension... Hope you understand there is a time for the rear elbow to extend, after full power has been achieved


drill

[BoardMember]

I'd like to use Loren's example of how to gain extension (a good one BTW) to understand Mr. Good Bar's information:

You can extend the angle at the elbow joint and the arm using the transfer

With your top hand (not 100% accurate) remaining in the same place, push the knob of the bat toward the catcher using the transfer.

With your top hand in place raise your rear elbow and pull it slightly behind you using the transfer.

With your top hand in place move your lead arm elbow behind your belt buckle using the transfer.

The elbow joint angle increases, generally, with one of the above. It has extended using the transfer.

One of these may work with a student, IMO, it happens ideally during the stride, loading the upper body last using the transfer .


I'm really curious what this "transfer" is that makes all of the above happen....:confused:

[LClifton]

Various degrees of lead arm extension;
Some of the differences could be due to:
1. Where the hands start / where they are prior to loading
2. Amount of rear elbow action
3. Individual style of loading

http://lclifton.hittingillustrated.com/Ortiz1.gif
http://lclifton.hittingillustrated.com/kent2.gif
http://lclifton.hittingillustrated.com/Larouche key concepts.gif

[Erik]

Various degrees of lead arm extension;
Some of the differences could be due to:
1. Where the hands start / where they are prior to loading
2. Amount of rear elbow action
3. Individual style of loading

http://lclifton.hittingillustrated.com/Ortiz1.gif
http://lclifton.hittingillustrated.com/kent2.gif
http://lclifton.hittingillustrated.com/Larouche key concepts.gif

LClifton,


1. Where the hands start / where they are prior to loading


I would add "arms "to this because some hitters are better off started more loading and stretched when preparing to launch.



EL,

[BoardMember]

Mr. Good Bar, would you please explain the mechanics of this thing called "the transfer" how it causes this "good arm bar".

Thx......

Guess Not......:cry: