swing for analysis...

[Go Cardinals]

Here is an old swing... comments?

You can ignore the Pujols comparison...
The swing is at 29.97 fps

http://www.hittingillustrated.com/images/ConnorPujols.gif

If anyone could post this without a link... it says that it is too big...

[FiveFrameSwing]

Here is an old swing... comments?

You can ignore the Pujols comparison...

http://www.hittingillustrated.com/images/ConnorPujols.gif

If anyone could post this without a link... it says that it is too big...

Please move the tee back to where your lead leg strides and take another video.

[cosmo34]

Agreed, too far back from the plate.

Besides that, IIRC from your last video to now, it does look better.

[Go Cardinals]

Yes I know the tee is to far forward, and it screws alot up.

[Go Cardinals]

I counted 4 frames for my swing... what do you guys think?

[slugger33]

You aren't even in the box...

[Go Cardinals]

You aren't even in the box...

What does that mean?

[slugger33]

What does that mean?
You just don't have the tee set up right.

[paul5150]

What does that mean?

he means if there was a batters box...you wouldnt be in it!

[Chris O'Leary]

What does that mean?

Your back foot would be outside of the batter's box.

Also, that's a pretty good swing, if you factor out how far in front the tee is.

[Erik]

Go Cardinals,
do you have a clip that doesn't have your front foot sliding on the grass. This changes how your front leg reacts normally.







EL,

[Go Cardinals]

Go Cardinals,
do you have a clip that doesn't have your front foot sliding on the grass. This changes how your front leg reacts normally.







EL,

Nope. I am doing a camp that allegedly has state of the art video system just after x-mas. So hopefully I'll have a lot of film of me in live bp. *hopefully*

Anyone in the area come watch me. Its at Santa Clara univeristy. If anyone is in the area PM and I'll put down dates and time. Its a 3 hr camp at night.

[wogdoggy]

ask your dad if he'll adopt me will ya?:highfive:

[Go Cardinals]

ask your dad if he'll adopt me will ya?:highfive:

Why do you say that? Its just a camp... All though it is nice to have a mom and dad who are willing to back me up and support me in whatever I want to do. Ok, I'll take some time to say, I am very lucky and fortunate to have such great parents. Some times I can take it for granted, but I am truly lucky! Oh and sorry but were out of room... no more bedrooms... if you want to sleep on the couch you can move in, bring a big screen or a plasma screen TV though because the one we have is a little old. My dad has a big screen at work, but he won't bring it home... =-(

Ok, here's how you get to my house from chicago, take interstate 80 all the way to san fransico. Your close but still 25-50 miles away. If you seriously did that tell me, then I'll tell you the rest. It's actualy quite easy from there.

[wogdoggy]

and thats why i say that

[JeffK 29]

Just some thoughts as I reviewed: (keep in mind I'm new at this)

Agree with the tee location comments however I find it amazing that you can still maintain a connected swing. The forward tee location would indicate an inside pitch. It appears that the tee is positioned further away than an inside pitch. Looks more like an outside pitch relative to your body. So I find myself asking how you can stay that connected on an outside pitch that far in front of your front foot. Is this a camera angle thing…it's just confusing to me. Maybe you have allot of tilt going on that we cant see at this angle

Swing comments:

Looks like you generate lots of forward momentum
Lots of head movement after front foot plant. Maybe caused by grass?
If you look at Pujols his head is perfectly still after the front foot plants.
Interesting how that front foot spins

Frames:

Not sure wen you start the frame clock…I've heard at front foot plant. Seems that your foot plants about 2 frames before pujols. I count 5 maybe 6 frames from that point to contact.

From reading your posts I know you spend allot of time on your swing and it shows. It's a beatiful swing. Without slow mo and an MLB player right next to it would be hard see a difference.

I admire your level of commitment.

JK

[Go Cardinals]

Just some thoughts as I reviewed: (keep in mind I'm new at this)

Agree with the tee location comments however I find it amazing that you can still maintain a connected swing. The forward tee location would indicate an inside pitch. It appears that the tee is positioned further away than an inside pitch. Looks more like an outside pitch relative to your body. So I find myself asking how you can stay that connected on an outside pitch that far in front of your front foot. Is this a camera angle thing…it's just confusing to me. Maybe you have allot of tilt going on that we cant see at this angle

Swing comments:

Looks like you generate lots of forward momentum
Lots of head movement after front foot plant. Maybe caused by grass?
If you look at Pujols his head is perfectly still after the front foot plants.
Interesting how that front foot spins

Frames:

Not sure wen you start the frame clock…I've heard at front foot plant. Seems that your foot plants about 2 frames before pujols. I count 5 maybe 6 frames from that point to contact.

From reading your posts I know you spend allot of time on your swing and it shows. It's a beatiful swing. Without slow mo and an MLB player right next to it would be hard see a difference.

I admire your level of commitment.

JK

Thank you for the compliments... honestly, I've never seen it as beautiful, because to me it can always be better somehow. I wish I could, but I just can't see it...

I'm working on less of a weight shift than transfer (I think I got that right, correct me if I didn't).

What is the correct way to count frames?

[Chris O'Leary]

What is the correct way to count frames?

From the planting of the front heel.

[Go Cardinals]

From the planting of the front heel.

Ok, then I got 4-5, so 4.5. What I counted.

[paul5150]

For some reason in all of your swings it just looks like you are thinkin WAY too much when your swinging.

[Go Cardinals]

For some reason in all of your swings it just looks like you are thinkin WAY too much when your swinging.

Yes I am thinking about alot. In practice you think about technique and doing it right. In the game its second nature... it happens naturally. That's my philoshopy. So yes, I though alot when I swung.

[wogdoggy]

dont get all hung up on frame count..get a running start and you wont have to worry about it..if you have a super fast frame count and cant hit a ball sweet what good is it..dont get hung up on that rigamaroll at this age..:twocents:

[RayR]

dont get all hung up on frame count..get a running start and you wont have to worry about it..if you have a super fast frame count and cant hit a ball sweet what good is it..dont get hung up on that rigamaroll at this age..:twocents:

So, your advice to young hitters is NOT to work on swing quickness and instead get a "running start" and all will be alright? Just start earlier and you will catch up to those fastballs?

[Encinitas]

So, your advice to young hitters is NOT to work on swing quickness and instead get a "running start" and all will be alright? Just start earlier and you will catch up to those fastballs?

Correct.

Counting frames at foot plant isn't as effective you should count frames when they can no longer check the swing.

http://www.hittingillustrated.com/library/Posadasidebyside.gif

[Drill]

so it looks like you have to shift your weight around about half way or a little more to the plate.

Hope that is natural or do I have to think about that, than and keeping my elbow in at the same time.


I am so confussed in my older and mature gray days, pretty soon I will forget stuff than where will I be. K-out


drill

[Go Cardinals]

so it looks like you have to shift your weight around about half way or a little more to the plate.

Hope that is natural or do I have to think about that, than and keeping my elbow in at the same time.


I am so confussed in my older and mature gray days, pretty soon I will forget stuff than where will I be. K-out


drill

I'm sorry, I really didn't understand that post... lol, was it a joke? Were you giving advice?... I'm confused lol

[Go Cardinals]

Ok, I have my own opinions about this question. That said, I would like to hear other opinions. First of all, is this a "MLB-Pattern swing"? Why or why not?

As I said before, I have my opinion to the answer of this question. What is yours? Please be honest. I felt like so far people have been holding back. A lot of people commented (and I do greatly appreciate it), but what do you honestly feel about this swing. I have tough skin (at least trying to learn how to) and I need feedback. Please try to be as nip picky as possible. I am sure that some of you could find things wrong in almost every swing shown to you. I want to hear every opinion possible, before I fully engage in a philosophy.

Any comment. Constructive criticism at any level is welcomed and wanted. The video next to Albert Pujols is 29.97 fps (unless someone speed it up). Its also here on youtube, people could take a good look their.

http://www.youtube.com/cardswonin06 --- Youtube

http://www.hittingillustrated.com/images/ConnorPujols.gif ---- side by side w/ AP

Also, if you are not an expert, please respond too! I don't care; what your credentials are, how old you are, how little or how much you know... just comment on something that you can think of.

I don't want to come off as impatient or needy. It is, in fact, the opposite! I am just trying to encourage every body who reads this to feel like they can respond...

Thank you all,

Connor

[4for4]

Correct.

Nah.

Counting frames at foot plant isn't as effective you should count frames when they can no longer check the swing.

What a MLB Scout said on the topic:

I basically do it the same way as Steve, except I tie in the footplant and first bathead movement together. Most of the time the bathead will start moving when the foot is planted solidly, but not always. If the hitter picks up the change or something other than a fastball he will usually have a slight delay (about 1 frame) before the bat starts to move. In that case, I will go on the first bathead movement. For the most part, I go on first bathead movement, but the good hitters have it going at the same time the foot is firmly planted, so you will get the same count either way if the hitter is sitting fastball and gets a fastball.

When scouting, I will run the clip back and forth about 10 times, so that I am sure in my mind of the frame count. The real good amatuer HS and College hitters are 4-5 frames when they get the fastball.

The method with million dollar contracts on the line is the best way to measure this.

All thanks goes to the late Dmac for providing this guidance!

[Drill]

Ok thta make sense

[Lady_Knights]

A couple things I see.....

1. Open your stance up so you can have a good 2 eyed look at the ball. Your front foot will be back, about in the middle of your back foot. Your slightly opening up on your stride anyways.

2. Bend at the waist in toward the plate a little more, will keep you balanced.

3. When working off a tee, focus out where the pitcher will be, and then track the ball, with your eyes, without moving your head, to the tee, this will occur at toe touch.

4. Your hands are starting to high, they should be at the top of your back shoulder. Your first move is dropping your hands, and is causing you to drop your hands below your back elbow, which is a big problem. Your first move should be your elbow sliding into the slot, away from your body, not against it, at this point your hands should be directly above your elbow.

5. When you stride forward, you should slightly bring your hands back, if your hands are more forward, or walk away from your hands if they are already back. When your hands are moving back in the video, your front shoulder is rolling in, and your back shoulder and hands are rotating back behind your body. If I were to stand in front of you, I should be able to see your hands throughout your swing. Work on your stance, stride to toe touch, in front of a mirror to make sure you can see your hands and your not rotating at the waist.

6. Keep your head down through contact, you will be much stronger.

One more thing, keep your tongue in your mouth while your swinging....your going to bite your tongue off.

[Encinitas]

Nah.

What a MLB Scout said on the topic:

The method with million dollar contracts on the line is the best way to measure this.

All thanks goes to the late Dmac for providing this guidance!

I know that same MLB scout was a big help in me retraining my swing to tip and rip.

I would think Dmac would give some consideration to the idea of counting frames at the point of no turning back as an enhancement to his system. However we'll never know, nobody was talking about counting frames from GO at the time.

In the Posada clip it's clear he is 3 frames to the ball if you start the count at GO.

Here is Bonds, and once he has to GO, 3 frames:
http://www.hittingillustrated.com/library/Bonds5c.gif

By the way I am sure if I saw a 6 frame swing using traditional methods, I'd see that there were issues I'd like to work on, I just might attack the problem a little differently than you. Thus one can use both.

[Drill]

A couple things I see.....

1. Open your stance up so you can have a good 2 eyed look at the ball. Your front foot will be back, about in the middle of your back foot. Your slightly opening up on your stride anyways.

2. Bend at the waist in toward the plate a little more, will keep you balanced.

3. When working off a tee, focus out where the pitcher will be, and then track the ball, with your eyes, without moving your head, to the tee, this will occur at toe touch.

4. Your hands are starting to high, they should be at the top of your back shoulder. Your first move is dropping your hands, and is causing you to drop your hands below your back elbow, which is a big problem. Your first move should be your elbow sliding into the slot, away from your body, not against it, at this point your hands should be directly above your elbow.

5. When you stride forward, you should slightly bring your hands back, if your hands are more forward, or walk away from your hands if they are already back. When your hands are moving back in the video, your front shoulder is rolling in, and your back shoulder and hands are rotating back behind your body. If I were to stand in front of you, I should be able to see your hands throughout your swing. Work on your stance, stride to toe touch, in front of a mirror to make sure you can see your hands and your not rotating at the waist.

6. Keep your head down through contact, you will be much stronger.

One more thing, keep your tongue in your mouth while your swinging....your going to bite your tongue off.




A+ on explanations

Not that me saying you have a good post here give you anymore validity. But maybe me saying this is good advice will give me more validity.

About the "keep your tongue in your mouth while swinging" quote. Couldn't this be used to throw the pitcher off. His final thought when throwing the ball..."look the batter is sticking his tongue out at me"

I think I will tell my son to do this next time up to bat as the pitcher is looking for the sign from the catcher. "Son, as I yell from behind the back stop, don't forget to stick your tongue out at the pitcher."

Since at a certain age children just get tired of us parents coaching them, maybe, just maybe he will hear me one last time.


respectfully yours,


drill


disclaimer - for those who don't know weather to take me seriously or not, I was just kidding about the tongue thing, but serious about the post by Lady_Knights

[Steve Englishbey]

"Counting frames at foot plant isn't as effective you should count frames when they can no longer check the swing."

I thoroughly disagree witht this statement.

The notion that one can sit at a computer and accurately gauge as to when a hitter like Barry Bonds [or anybody for that matter] can stop the unload process is thoroughly "unreal."

Meaning the concept of "go or no go" was "dreamed up "by guys sitting at at a computer and having the illusion that they can authoritatively claim that they can know from "the outside " what is internal to the "system" ie ,mind ,body ,nevous system of a hitter like Barry Bonds.

[And my experience is that these kinds of "catchy slogans " usually do come from guys who have very little experience hitting against above average pitchers like you would see in D1 or professional baseball]


In effect ,what the purveyors of "go /no go " are doing is simply externally and arbitrarily defining what can only be understood "from the inside ."

Meaning that only the hitter himself can know as to when "the point of no return" is .

And this will vary both among and within the hiiter.

As I have stated elsewhere ,the "psycho-physical "experience of a hitter in a live context is" like a snowflake."

Meaning that each and every swing may look similar from the "outside" .But from the "inside " ,eg levels of arousal ,attensional focus ,reflex responses ,muscle synergies and sequencing ,and of course speed and location of the pitch ,all happening within that particular moment,etc etc ----this will all be unique to that instant of time .

Simply put , there is no way that Encinitas/Pronk /OhioTeamz can in any manner know what only the player can know .[And the player is only very dimly aware ------meaning his awareness in this regard is tacit and largely tangential to the actual goal that really underlies the swing process.]


And in conjuction with the above ,from either the player's perspective ,or for analytic purposes ,the concept of "go no go " serves very little purpose and has almost no utility.[At least not if you are trying to understand /describe the "underlying realities" of the swing process].

Because from either perspective it is really about LOADING AND UNLOADING body and bat.

Though the player may not use the terms ,he nonetheless is engaging in a process of trying to find a ball in space and hit it well .And as such ,he certainly knows at least implicity that his ability to do this is a function of how well he moves his body [and bat ] in the less than two tenths of a second he to actually has to find the ball and unload the swing .

"Engaging in a process" is synonymous with loading and unloading.

And it is the "system "[mind,body .nevous system ] engaged inthat process.

Simply put ,a player is not thinking or functioning in terms of "go /no go " .This is not the goal of a hitter.

From the analytic perspective ,"go /no go " makes very little sense .

Beyond the fact ---as stated above ---that it is impossible to quantify or qualify the term in any kind of meaningul way,it makes very little sense to arbitrarily "break up" the load /unload process .And arbitrarily assign a value of some kind to A POINT IN TIME.


Meaning that if analysis is going to be even remotely an attempt to understand "reality",one has to be able to "see" and understand the load-unload process as "one thing."


Meaning that "everything is related to everything else" .ie the load -unload process is not about the "hips " or the "hands ",or about a point in time like the ill-defined "go /no go ."

Or one could look at "the one thing" as the mind/body creating a series of multi-joint actions that are all related [though this may not be readily apparent to most].

And these action all involved in creating and transfering momentum from body to bat .

[In this context Dmac said something related to the above in a very simple yet accurate statement .
As regards what elite hitters are doing he said that "its not about the upper body and its not about the lower body .Its about using the entire body." And I of course agree with this statement.]


steve

[Drill]

As regards what elite hitters are doing he said that "its not about the upper body and its not about the lower body .Its about using the entire body." And I of course agree with this statement.]


steve

So the tongue being out is OK than? hitter using the entire body

respectfully yours,


drill


disclaimer - sorry for the tongue in cheek comment

[Steve Englishbey]

"I would think Dmac would give some consideration to the idea of counting frames at the point of no turning back as an enhancement to his system. However we'll never know, nobody was talking about counting frames from GO at the time."

"

For all the reasons that I stated above ,I would say that I seriously doubt that Dmac would have thought about the concept of "go /no go "as "an enhancement to his system."

And Ill add a couple more points to the above.

One thing Dmac did understand and put a premium on in terms of judging or projecting players most certainly did involve the notion of swing quickness.

He explicitly talked about this on Shawn Bell's website in the context of a particular player ---------a player who had been graded as a potential first round draft choice.[Or first 1-3 rounds--cant remember exactly ].

Dmac "passed "on him.And did so specifically on the issue of swing quickness .

Dmac had him fairly consistently at 5 and a half frames.

Simply put ,swing quicknes is "a big deal."

And it is a big deal because it is the lack of swing quickness that will be one of the main factors as to why one's hitting performance declines as the level of pitching gets better and better.

And it will be one of the main factors invloved in you not being able to go to the next level [whatever that level is for each individual].

It is certainly not the only factor involved in the swing process and /or hitting performance.

But it certainly looms large in the for those who aspire to live in the approximate .4 seconds that elite hitters have to operate within .

steve

[wogdoggy]

For all the reasons that I stated above ,I would say that I seriously doubt that Dmac would have thought about the concept of "go /no go "as "an enhancement to his system."

And Ill add a couple more points to the above.

One thing Dmac did understand and put a premium on in terms of judging or projecting players most certainly did involve the notion of swing quickness.

He explicitly talked about this on Shawn Bell's website in the context of a particular player ---------a player who had been graded as a potential first round draft choice.[Or first 1-3 rounds--cant remember exactly ].

Dmac "passed "on him.And did so specifically on the issue of swing quickness .

Dmac had him fairly consistently at 5 and a half frames.

Simply put ,swing quicknes is "a big deal."

And it is a big deal because it is the lack of swing quickness that will be one of the main factors as to why one's hitting performance declines as the level of pitching gets better and better.

And it will be one of the main factors invloved in you not being able to go to the next level [whatever that level is for each individual].

It is certainly not the only factor involved in the swing process and /or hitting performance.

But it certainly looms large in the for those who aspire to live in the approximate .4 seconds that elite hitters have to operate within .

steve



sure swing quickness has something to do with it,,but theres a heckuva lot more to it than that..you can have a quick swing but you still have to hit the ball sweet..
what astounds me is how the sport survived before all the rotational linear and frame counting we now feel is so important..

[Drill]

So we can improve swing faults to improve quickness. Are you saying than that metal quickness is a gift that only a few of the top players know how to improve upon?

How do you improve mental quickness?


drill

[Erik]

wogdoggy,


what astounds me is how the sport survived before all the rotational linear and frame counting we now feel is so important..[/QUOTE]


Most just tried copying a good hitter and that was good enough.




EL,

[swingbuilder]

I'll agree. Swing quickness is of major importance. But what needs to be understood is that there is a profile system for each position. You can have the quickest swing in the world and it not mean a thing.

There has to be timing. Good timing. Actually well above avg. timing. In other words the ball has to jump off the barrel. You have to be able to drive balls. You have to consistently make contact in the proper contact area and if not you had better be strong for those times your out front of that contact area or behind that contact area. Often times people work at having quick swings but they dont make contact and when they do they dont drive balls. Good hitters dont foul off good pitches they drive the good pitch all over the park.

In regards to the profile system keep in mind that the Major league avg for a 3b is 24 HR's a season. 28 for a 1b and 26 for a LF and 28 for a RF. Scouts have to be able to project numbers like the ones mentioned above. So alot of scouts get stuck, for good reason, in the out come. Meaning, a hitter better center the baseball on almost every swing he takes as an amatuer. Thats on a Tee or in the cage or on the field in live BP and also in the game.


Good hitters center the ball ALL the time. Having wasted movement in the swing takes away the ability for most to center balls consistently. For those that do center it all the time. Its not an issue even if they do have more than 5 frames.

Still doesnt mean they will be a big leaguer. But I will say this. The ones who center the ball often as an amatuer and can drive the ball when they center it and have some athletic ability and some physical projection will get every opprotunity to fail on the road to becoming a big leaguer.

[FiveFrameSwing]

One thing Dmac did understand and put a premium on in terms of judging or projecting players most certainly did involve the notion of swing quickness.


To me the purpose of counting frames is to quantify swing efficiency.

Starting the count at "GO!" isn't correct.

If one starts the count at heel plant, and the hitter spends too much time at heel plant (e.g., hip glide, etc.) then they are "inefficient" and should receive a score reflective of being inefficient. Such a person is not using their entire body efficiently and the frame count should reflect that independent of the "GO!" signal.

I have typically started the count when the hands first started moving forward. I would be interested in learning if there was a better place to start the count for the purpose of quantifying swing efficiency.

Lastly, with respect to your above comment, DMAC not only placed a premium on swing quickness, but he placed a premium on adjustability. He believed strongly that the creation of upper body torque (which he often referred to as separation) allowed for adjustability that couldn't be achieved without upper body separation.

[FiveFrameSwing]

I'll agree. Swing quickness is of major importance. But what needs to be understood is that there is a profile system for each position. You can have the quickest swing in the world and it not mean a thing.


I had a group of 8 kids in the cages last night. One of the kids is seeing an instructor that advocates swing quickness. This kid was "fast". The sound of the bat cutting the air was impressive. However this is the only kid that struck out against the machine, and several times. The kid rarely hit ... but they did have a fast swing.

[4for4]

I know that same MLB scout was a big help in me retraining my swing to tip and rip.

Your swing?? K.

I would think Dmac would give some consideration to the idea of counting frames at the point of no turning back as an enhancement to his system. However we'll never know, nobody was talking about counting frames from GO at the time.

Clever tactic, but he talked about this for as long as he used video as a guide.

I would think given the chance you would think twice about substituting your judgment for Dmac's in this regard.


In the Posada clip it's clear he is 3 frames to the ball if you start the count at GO.

I guess. If you click forward one more frame then he's only 2 frames to the ball or if you click it back one frame he's only 4 frames to the ball. This is where the discussion winds when you have an arbitrary process made out of whole cloth.

By the way I am sure if I saw a 6 frame swing using traditional methods, I'd see that there were issues I'd like to work on, I just might attack the problem a little differently than you. Thus one can use both.

You may attack the problem differently and that's a fair statement, but in addressing the issue of swing quickness, efficiency and elite level, the method to apply to this is the standard as outlined by Dmac. If you want to make up something new then...

[swingbuilder]

I'd say Dmac was the pioneer as concerns the frame counts. He was lite years ahead. Back into the George Brett era and maybe even before. He spent many hours studying the swing and when to begin frame counting and at how many frames was optimal.

Let me add here also that swing speed and swing quickness are not one in the same. You can have swing speed and be more than 5 or 6 frames to contact.

I'll also say that DMAC didnt just count frames. Having a low frame count doesnt make a swinger a hitter. Having an efficient swing, in the eyes of some, doesnt mean you can hit. Swingers are efficient if they CAN hit. Hitters have timing.

[CoachB25]

The whole concept of "go" is absurd. Can anyone deduce that every one of these hitters has the same cognitive abilities, athletic abilities, etc. so that we can now take a point while that bat is in the swing to now say ok from here they can't check their swing? That'd then translate to they are all of equal abilities and so, should all hit the same. You can rate either heel plant or barrel movement or... because that is a factor you KNOW is REAL.

BTW, some of my players 40 times aren't very good. However, now, I have a new measure, I'm going to time them when I thinkthat they think that they are at their most efficient speed and then submit that time. I'm good at mind reading. Heck with something you can verify like a start.

[Chris O'Leary]

The whole concept of "go" is absurd. Can anyone deduce that every one of these hitters has the same cognitive abilities, athletic abilities, etc. so that we can now take a point while that bat is in the swing to now say ok from here they can't check their swing? That'd then translate to they are all of equal abilities and so, should all hit the same. You can rate either heel plant or barrel movement or... because that is a factor you KNOW is REAL.

I completely agree.

Well said.

[swingbuilder]

Who cares about Go. If it works for you mentally then so be it.

B25...its not the runner in the 60 yard dash. Its the timer. Put you and me side by side timing the same runner. Bet we dont get the same time. But, I'd bet you would post the better time. When was your Go to start the watch and when was mine. When was your unload to start the watch or your load. Was it internal or external was it when you thought the runner was going to start or was it when he started or was it at the drop of the hat or the drop of the arm or was it when the starter said GO. Who dictates the GO, the Start, The Begin, The Load, The unload.

But I bet you can see it!

Go is a word. You can use lots of words in its place. You and the others who comment on go have other motives as usual. You can do the same with load and unload.

[Slapper23]

Steve,

As usual, you go on the attack, constantly fighting windmills. "Go/No Go" is a pretty simple description of one point in a swing. I think it is a useful marker for analyzing video of a hitter, especially a young hitter I may work with, in regard to are they in the correct position to hit the ball squarely and on time OR to take/check the swing. Another way to look at it is, has the hitter properly loaded with a good running start and in the process of unloading/rotating into toe touch/heel plant as they read the pitch - stretch is created through the overlap of load/unload and they are right at the cusp of GO or NOGO - they swing or they take.

I want hitters I work with to reach this GO/NOGO point of the swing on every pitch. Yes, it is unique to the individual hitter, and only they really know when they reach that point. But I want my hitters, if they are not going to swing at a pitch, to have met or approached the GO/NOGO point of the swing whenever they decide to take a pitch.

Richard/JoeBad posted a side by side somewhere of, I believe, Posada. The frame on the left was Posada hitting a ball. The frame on the right was Posada holding up on the swing. Both clips were identical up to the point of GO/NOGO. The clips really illustrated what I would like my fastpitch hitters to look like when they hit or take.

And yes, the load/unload sequence is one dynamic movement, but in breaking the swing down and teaching, you do talk about and work on hips, hands, legs, arms, etc. I agree, it really is about loading and unloading the body and bat, but we differ on how it occurs and how we go about teaching and explaining it.

[Encinitas]

Well this thread would appear to be who can quote Dmac the best and wtih the most authority.

Let's get this back on track which was my reason for replying, as to how much the goal of swing quickness should be a part of what you teach. The very same guy (Dmac) who used that gold standard in evaluating talent, is the one that had a personal hand in what I teach.

[4X4 you are correct it wasn't my swing directly, though I tried it all first before teaching]

For those who don't know about Dmac's tip and rip, when I started listening to Dmac and Buster, I saw vast improvement. Did either of them freak out if a hit was 6 frames or if there was a little bat drag? No. Get a running start in your swing, you won't look back.

When I first posted a game clip of my son son after learning DMAC's tip and rip, he was glowing in his praise. As he told me he hated watching these kids on the internet take no stride and swing with dead hands. As he put it made him "sick to his stomach".

So Dmac himself said it was more important for a young hitter to first learn to emulate the MLB power hitting pattern, and THEN quickness will come.

[wogdoggy]

The whole concept of "go" is absurd. Can anyone deduce that every one of these hitters has the same cognitive abilities, athletic abilities, etc. so that we can now take a point while that bat is in the swing to now say ok from here they can't check their swing? That'd then translate to they are all of equal abilities and so, should all hit the same. You can rate either heel plant or barrel movement or... because that is a factor you KNOW is REAL.

BTW, some of my players 40 times aren't very good. However, now, I have a new measure, I'm going to time them when I thinkthat they think that they are at their most efficient speed and then submit that time. I'm good at mind reading. Heck with something you can verify like a start.

wouldnt it be hysterical if you found out the kid with the best frame count wiffed the most and had the lowest percentage?

frame count and a quarter may get you a phone call..

[GFK]

wouldnt it be hysterical if you found out the kid with the best frame count wiffed the most and had the lowest percentage?

frame count and a quarter may get you a phone call..

I did my own rough study. I video taped a team of hitters with the intent of providing them some feedback.

I found a significant and overwhelming correlation between swing quickness and all three measures of performance (OBP, AVE, & SLG). I would suggest everyone else try the same study. The real kicker is, the kid that was playing up a year had the quickest swing and the best OBP, AVE, & SLG. (I will let you guessing as to who it was:shhh:)

[JJA]

Of course frame count is important. It's the only quantitative measure of swing quickness that I know of. Considering I have never seen an MLB guy with a frame count 5 or above (using DMac's definition), this is overwhelming evidence that it might be a good idea to strive for something similar if you want to hit at higher levels.

Anyone who has coached for any length of time and uses video sees almost a direct correlation between frame count and the ability to hit a fastball. The guys who have the "quick bats", "fast hands", the guys who can hit the hard throwing ace on the other team are the ones with a low frame count. The guys who have a "slow bat", "long swing", guys who struggle against the best fastball are guys with long frame counts. This isn't rocket science. Having a quick bat is a quantifiable term, and frame count is the way to quantify it.

Unfortunately, "go" isn't a very useful way of describing swing quickness, not nearly as good as the original. First of all, as described above, it's impossible to quantify. What the "go" position is for Bonds may or may not be the same as the "go" position for David Eckstein. But front foot down, bat first moving as DMac described is remarkably the same from player to player (as originally observed by Charley Lau, Sr).

Secondly, it implies that the time between front foot down and "go" is irrelevant. That's absolute nonsense. Having a quick "go" but taking 5 of 6 frames to get to the "go" position would satisfy the "go" guys, but is obviously not an MLB like swing. The original definition is far better, far more useful, a far more consistent measure of what an MLB swing is.

-JJA

[swingbuilder]

I thoroughly disagree witht this statement.

The notion that one can sit at a computer and accurately gauge as to when a hitter like Barry Bonds [or anybody for that matter] can stop the unload process is thoroughly "unreal."

Meaning the concept of "go or no go" was "dreamed up "by guys sitting at at a computer and having the illusion that they can authoritatively claim that they can know from "the outside " what is internal to the "system" ie ,mind ,body ,nevous system of a hitter like Barry Bonds.

[And my experience is that these kinds of "catchy slogans " usually do come from guys who have very little experience hitting against above average pitchers like you would see in D1 or professional baseball]

In effect ,what the purveyors of "go /no go " are doing is simply externally and arbitrarily defining what can only be understood "from the inside ."

Meaning that only the hitter himself can know as to when "the point of no return" is .

And this will vary both among and within the hiiter.

As I have stated elsewhere ,the "psycho-physical "experience of a hitter in a live context is" like a snowflake."

Meaning that each and every swing may look similar from the "outside" .But from the "inside " ,eg levels of arousal ,attensional focus ,reflex responses ,muscle synergies and sequencing ,and of course speed and location of the pitch ,all happening within that particular moment,etc etc ----this will all be unique to that instant of time .

Simply put , there is no way that Encinitas/Pronk /OhioTeamz can in any manner know what only the player can know .[And the player is only very dimly aware ------meaning his awareness in this regard is tacit and largely tangential to the actual goal that really underlies the swing process.]


And in conjuction with the above ,from either the player's perspective ,or for analytic purposes ,the concept of "go no go " serves very little purpose and has almost no utility.[At least not if you are trying to understand /describe the "underlying realities" of the swing process].

Because from either perspective it is really about LOADING AND UNLOADING body and bat.

Though the player may not use the terms ,he nonetheless is engaging in a process of trying to find a ball in space and hit it well .And as such ,he certainly knows at least implicity that his ability to do this is a function of how well he moves his body [and bat ] in the less than two tenths of a second he to actually has to find the ball and unload the swing .

"Engaging in a process" is synonymous with loading and unloading.

And it is the "system "[mind,body .nevous system ] engaged inthat process.

Simply put ,a player is not thinking or functioning in terms of "go /no go " .This is not the goal of a hitter.

From the analytic perspective ,"go /no go " makes very little sense .

Beyond the fact ---as stated above ---that it is impossible to quantify or qualify the term in any kind of meaningul way,it makes very little sense to arbitrarily "break up" the load /unload process .And arbitrarily assign a value of some kind to A POINT IN TIME.


Meaning that if analysis is going to be even remotely an attempt to understand "reality",one has to be able to "see" and understand the load-unload process as "one thing."


Meaning that "everything is related to everything else" .ie the load -unload process is not about the "hips " or the "hands ",or about a point in time like the ill-defined "go /no go ."

Or one could look at "the one thing" as the mind/body creating a series of multi-joint actions that are all related [though this may not be readily apparent to most].

And these action all involved in creating and transfering momentum from body to bat .

[In this context Dmac said something related to the above in a very simple yet accurate statement .
As regards what elite hitters are doing he said that "its not about the upper body and its not about the lower body .Its about using the entire body." And I of course agree with this statement.]


steve


Of course.....when you say separation is not present in a high level swing... you can only follow that up with the statement that there is no "go" move, or, one can not determine the "go" move from the "outside".

But......of course......You can distinquish between footplant and solid footplant....by sitting at a computer.

And, You can distinquish the degree of tension the hitter has in his shoulders and arms......by sitting at a computer.

And, You can distinquish that there is no push off the back foot......by sitting at a computer.

Come on now. Sounds to me like your trying to cover your steps here.

[4for4]

Let's get this back on track which was my reason for replying...

I thought you were going to get this back on track. I don't know, maybe an A for effort. Anyway, here are some additional thoughts from Dmac:

Some on this site have mentioned that I go only with the running start......that is incorrect. I like the running start, but I would also set up a youngster like Moises Alou too, who does not get a running start, but is setup to hit the ball in the air.

Teach the good setup, teach good rotation, teach a good stride.........in other words, teach what you see the majority of big leaguers doing.

If I just teach a kid to cock the bat and hit with his hands, it will be an incomplete swing. If I teach a kid to just rotate, it will be an incomplete swing. Teach the kid how to setup in the box, teach him how to stride and teach him how to rotate and he will get a lot better.

Arguing about hands and hips is dumb........you need both to be a good hitter.

Now, there's now doubt that Dmac didn't really care for the bat over the shoulder like Luis Gonzalez or Chad Tracey or Stephen Drew or...and that he really liked "tip and rip" and many of us agree, but have a different approach to getting there. But what is apparent from reading his writing is that he knew that it wasn't one thing that made a swing great and it wasn't one teach to get you there, but rather it involves the entire system. So, saying "Get a running start in your swing, you won't look back" is naive at best. In fairness to Encinitas, he's probably not approaching it this way, but for many of the new readers coming on here with some despair in sorting out what the heck they need to do to help their son/daughter, it's not likely to be terribly helpful. Dmac's words above are much better way to think about it and is essentially how Englishbey thinks about it.

[4for4]

Of course.....when you say separation is not present in a high level swing... you can only follow that up with the statement that there is no "go" move, or, one can not determine the "go" move from the "outside".

But......of course......You can distinquish between footplant and solid footplant....by sitting at a computer.

And, You can distinquish the degree of tension the hitter has in his shoulders and arms......by sitting at a computer.

And, You can distinquish that there is no push off the back foot......by sitting at a computer.

Come on now. Sounds to me like your trying to cover your steps here.

Wow! You and your boss just don't get it. The standard was set by a long term successful Scout that participated in many an a arena on this topic of hitting. Please try to pay attention. You earlier posts on this subject were a little better. I guess external factors can take over as the day moves.

[wogdoggy]

Of course.....when you say separation is not present in a high level swing... you can only follow that up with the statement that there is no "go" move, or, one can not determine the "go" move from the "outside".

But......of course......You can distinquish between footplant and solid footplant....by sitting at a computer.

And, You can distinquish the degree of tension the hitter has in his shoulders and arms......by sitting at a computer.

And, You can distinquish that there is no push off the back foot......by sitting at a computer.

Come on now. Sounds to me like your trying to cover your steps here.


maybe he can set up his stoplight and tee and get a gauge for his swing quickness? maybe if he can pull off a 4.5 somebody may sign him

[4for4]

maybe he can set up his stoplight and tee and get a gauge for his swing quickness? maybe if he can pull off a 4.5 somebody may sign him

Englishbey was signed. You?

[wogdoggy]

Englishbey was signed. You?

your point?
his pro pa?
his pro batting average?
his signing bonus?
his pro accomplishments?



and your point again?

beautiful:rofl:

[Go Cardinals]

I thought you were going to get this back on track. I don't know, maybe an A for effort. Anyway, here are some additional thoughts from Dmac:





Now, there's now doubt that Dmac didn't really care for the bat over the shoulder like Luis Gonzalez or Chad Tracey or Stephen Drew or...and that he really liked "tip and rip" and many of us agree, but have a different approach to getting there. But what is apparent from reading his writing is that he knew that it wasn't one thing that made a swing great and it wasn't one teach to get you there, but rather it involves the entire system. So, saying "Get a running start in your swing, you won't look back" is naive at best. In fairness to Encinitas, he's probably not approaching it this way, but for many of the new readers coming on here with some despair in sorting out what the heck they need to do to help their son/daughter, it's not likely to be terribly helpful. Dmac's words above are much better way to think about it and is essentially how Englishbey thinks about it.

Then whats this whole thing about ... "the hands just hold onto the bat..."
- Correct me if I'm wrong here

From what I've heard (and this could be wrong and biased) doesn't steve say the hands to nothing but hold onto the bat? And yet swingbuilder has said many times before that the hands and the hips drive the swing? So are you now misunderstanding tip and rip, and second engine, etc. like you constantly criticize other people for doing with your pcr stuff?

Correct me if I am wrong, I could be missing something here...

What swingbuilder and the tip and rip people are saying (at least what I think they are saying) is that yes you need to rotate, setup and stride... but what he is saying is that there is more to the swing. Yes that is important, but so are other things!

That is just what I think they are saying/ thinking... I could be wrong though

[Go Cardinals]

your point?
his pro pa?
his pro batting average?
his signing bonus?
his pro accomplishments?



and your point again?

beautiful:rofl:

And according to most people here, don't the pros not know much about their own swings?

[swingbuilder]

4x4...Paying attention very well to plenty of diversionary tactics to cover your "Muscling" in both your post and your hitting system.

The difference between "go" to me versus "go" to you is the difference between the unstretch and brute force rotation. You believe in "muscling" the system. Professional hitters gain a mechanical advantage, through the stretch and fire, that far exceeds what "muscling" can produce.

Well....the point is....with a running start exhibited by almost all the professionals....the swing is actually 3-4 frames.....not the 5 frame standard.

AND....just as important....you use a checkpoint that has nothing to do with the launch of the swing.......toetouch/heelplant.

The "go" decision puts Bonds and Ted's foot down. The decision to swing happens before solid foot plant and not after or at solid foot plant. Lets take for example a 1st rounder two years ago. Drew Stubbs. Dmac saw Stubbs hit live in a game and he also saw additional footage of Stubbs in swing clips. He didnt draw his conclusion that Stubbs wouldnt be a consistent hitter based on frame counts at foot plant. What Dmac said was that Stubbs didnt decide to swing until after he had put his foot down.

So when you use the running start and the creation of separation, when you finally decide to swing you are deeper into the process and you have shorter to go.......even though your process may be longer in overall length.

[wogdoggy]

4x4...Paying attention very well to plenty of diversionary tactics to cover your "Muscling" in both your post and your hitting system.

The difference between "go" to me versus "go" to you is the difference between the unstretch and brute force rotation. You believe in "muscling" the system. Professional hitters gain a mechanical advantage, through the stretch and fire, that far exceeds what "muscling" can produce.

Well....the point is....with a running start exhibited by almost all the professionals....the swing is actually 3-4 frames.....not the 5 frame standard.

AND....just as important....you use a checkpoint that has nothing to do with the launch of the swing.......toetouch/heelplant.

The "go" decision puts Bonds and Ted's foot down.

So when you use the running start and the creation of separation, when you finally decide to swing you are deeper into the process and you have shorter to go.......even though your process may be longer in overall length.

whoop there it is

JUST TRY IT! good post

[4for4]

your point?
his pro pa?
his pro batting average?
his signing bonus?
his pro accomplishments?



and your point again?

beautiful:rofl:

Uh, remind me again what yours were?

[Go Cardinals]

4x4...Paying attention very well to plenty of diversionary tactics to cover your "Muscling" in both your post and your hitting system.

The difference between "go" to me versus "go" to you is the difference between the unstretch and brute force rotation. You believe in "muscling" the system. Professional hitters gain a mechanical advantage, through the stretch and fire, that far exceeds what "muscling" can produce.

Well....the point is....with a running start exhibited by almost all the professionals....the swing is actually 3-4 frames.....not the 5 frame standard.

AND....just as important....you use a checkpoint that has nothing to do with the launch of the swing.......toetouch/heelplant.

The "go" decision puts Bonds and Ted's foot down. The decision to swing happens before solid foot plant and not after or at solid foot plant. Lets take for example a 1st rounder two years ago. Drew Stubbs. Dmac saw Stubbs hit live in a game and he also saw additional footage of Stubbs in swing clips. He didnt draw his conclusion that Stubbs wouldnt be a consistent hitter based on frame counts at foot plant. What Dmac said was that Stubbs didnt decide to swing until after he had put his foot down.

So when you use the running start and the creation of separation, when you finally decide to swing you are deeper into the process and you have shorter to go.......even though your process may be longer in overall length.

Ok, so I don't get it... what are the different forms of go? Put aside if it is right or not. What are "the 2 different arguments" about when go is?

[4for4]

4x4...Paying attention very well to plenty of diversionary tactics to cover your "Muscling" in both your post and your hitting system.

Nah.

The difference between "go" to me versus "go" to you is the difference between the unstretch and brute force rotation. You believe in "muscling" the system. Professional hitters gain a mechanical advantage, through the stretch and fire, that far exceeds what "muscling" can produce.

Nah.

Well....the point is....with a running start exhibited by almost all the professionals....the swing is actually 3-4 frames.....not the 5 frame standard.

Nah. No, double Nah. I'm going with the real Scout on this one.

AND....just as important....you use a checkpoint that has nothing to do with the launch of the swing.......toetouch/heelplant.

See above.

The "go" decision puts Bonds and Ted's foot down. The decision to swing happens before solid foot plant and not after or at solid foot plant. Lets take for example a 1st rounder two years ago. Drew Stubbs. Dmac saw Stubbs hit live in a game and he also saw additional footage of Stubbs in swing clips. He didnt draw his conclusion that Stubbs wouldnt be a consistent hitter based on frame counts at foot plant. What Dmac said was that Stubbs didnt decide to swing until after he had put his foot down.

Different topic.

So when you use the running start and the creation of separation, when you finally decide to swing you are deeper into the process and you have shorter to go.......even though your process may be longer in overall length.

See Dmac's explanation on frame counting. Please show it to your boss.

[JJA]

Swingbuilder,

Originally Posted by swingbuilder

So when you use the running start and the creation of separation, when you finally decide to swing you are deeper into the process and you have shorter to go.......even though your process may be longer in overall length.


This is all we're getting at. There isn't a "longer" swing in the big leagues. Please show us one MLB player with a long swing, as measured by greater than 5 frames. (Hint: you won't find one.) In other words, the guys who are fast from "go" are also faster from front foot plant, and the latter is a lot easier to determine in video than "go". That's why it's a superior definition.

-JJA

[Go Cardinals]

Uh, remind me again what yours were?

Let me ask you this again...

according to most people here, don't the pros not know much about their own swings?

[swingbuilder]

The "go" decision puts Bonds and Ted's foot down. The decision to swing happens before solid foot plant and not after or at solid foot plant. Lets take for example a 1st rounder two years ago. Drew Stubbs. Dmac saw Stubbs hit live in a game and he also saw additional footage of Stubbs in swing clips. He didnt draw his conclusion that Stubbs wouldnt be a consistent hitter based on frame counts at foot plant. What Dmac said was that Stubbs didnt decide to swing until after he had put his foot down.

Different topic.


it IS the topic. diverting again.

[wogdoggy]

Uh, remind me again what yours were?

well since you mentioned it again what were his plate appearances and batting average his signing bonus and contract value?

otherwise it pretty much means diddly

how much MONEY did he earn as a PRO?
what team did he play for..? any at bats?

again whats the point?

:rofl:

[4for4]

well since you mentioned it again what were his plate appearances and batting average his signing bonus and contract value?

otherwise it pretty much means diddly

how much MONEY did he earn as a PRO?
what team did he play for..? any at bats?

again whats the point?

:rofl:

Uh, remind me again what yours were?

[wogdoggy]

Swingbuilder,



This is all we're getting at. There isn't a "longer" swing in the big leagues. Please show us one MLB player with a long swing, as measured by greater than 5 frames. (Hint: you won't find one.) In other words, the guys who are fast from "go" are also faster from front foot plant, and the latter is a lot easier to determine in video than "go". That's why it's a superior definition.

-JJA

hitting it consistently sweet is more important..if they all have 5 frame swings what makes the great players great? 4 .9 frames? NO,,, and you know the answer...well maybe you do

[Go Cardinals]

it IS the topic. diverting again.

I just thought of something... read what 4 for 4 accused you of not knowing (or having in your system) then read your signature... "the hands and the hips drive the swing..."

So apparently now, the englishbey hitting system is hitting illustrated... if they beleive what dmac said like he posted above!

[FiveFrameSwing]

See Dmac's explanation on frame counting.


I'd like to read Dmac's explanation on frame counting.

Please post a link to it.

[wogdoggy]

Uh, remind me again what yours were?

your pathetic man :rofl:. sounds like we both have the same batting averages during our "pro" careers...

[4for4]

your pathetic man :rofl:. sounds like we both have the same batting averages during our "pro" careers...

How do you know mine wasn't higher than yours? OTOH, I don't really know if yours was higher than mine. :rolleyes:

[swingbuilder]

Swingbuilder,



This is all we're getting at. There isn't a "longer" swing in the big leagues. Please show us one MLB player with a long swing, as measured by greater than 5 frames. (Hint: you won't find one.) In other words, the guys who are fast from "go" are also faster from front foot plant, and the latter is a lot easier to determine in video than "go". That's why it's a superior definition.

-JJA


thats right, 5 frames doesnt make a hitter. Never will. But how a hitter "GOes" will.

[GFK]

Let me ask you this again...

according to most people here, don't the pros not know much about their own swings?

GC, I am going to cut you some slack here because you are young. (I was young at one point:noidea)

Go do some research on Explicit vs Implicit learning and you may find the answer to why the pros do not seam to be able to describe their own swing mechanics.

[JJA]

Wogdoggy,

Of course, having a swing with 4.5 frames of delay or less and a swing speed of greater than ~75 mph does not guarantee success. You're absolutely right, it's not a sufficient condition for success, but it is a necessary one as there are no MLB batters with greater than 5 frames nor a swing speed much lower than ~75 mph.

That's why DMac's job was so tough. So many other factors enter into being a great hitter: vision, smarts, a brain with great pattern recognition ability, toughness, confidence, work ethic, etc. It's ridiculously difficult for a scout to figure out if a guy has those traits which is a major reason why MLB's track record is so poor in drafting guys. But make no mistake about it, no matter how smart, how tough, how cocky, 20/10 vision, with the world's greatest work ethic, if you've got the whole package but a swing with 5+ frames of delay, you're done in the big leagues. Period.

-JJA

[wogdoggy]

Wogdoggy,

Of course, having a swing with 4.5 frames of delay or less and a swing speed of greater than ~75 mph does not guarantee success. You're absolutely right, it's not a sufficient condition for success, but it is a necessary one as there are no MLB batters with greater than 5 frames nor a swing speed much lower than ~75 mph.

That's why DMac's job was so tough. So many other factors enter into being a great hitter: vision, smarts, a brain with great pattern recognition ability, toughness, confidence, work ethic, etc. It's ridiculously difficult for a scout to figure out if a guy has those traits which is a major reason why MLB's track record is so poor in drafting guys. But make no mistake about it, no matter how smart, how tough, how cocky, 20/10 vision, with the world's greatest work ethic, if you've got the whole package but a swing with 5+ frames of delay, you're done in the big leagues. Period.

-JJA

AGREED............................

[swingbuilder]

there are no MLB batters with greater than 5 frames

You'll have to prove this one. I dont believe it. To randomly say this would be a reach at best.

I'll bet you there are some 5.5 and some 6 frames in the big leagues right now as well as in the past even from solid foot plant or barrel movement.

5 frames or less dont make a big leaguer.

[JJA]

Swingbuilder,

I've got more than 1600 clips in my video library, and although I haven't counted frames in all 1600, I can honestly say that I have never seen a big league swing remotely close to 6 frames. Honestly. Many little leaguers get there in 6 frames. 6 frames is a really, really slow swing. But among the great players, no way, no how. Manny, A-Rod, Bonds, all of the greats are at 4-4.5 frames. That I know.

-JJA

[swingbuilder]

Swingbuilder,

I've got more than 1600 clips in my video library, and although I haven't counted frames in all 1600, I can honestly say that I have never seen a big league swing remotely close to 6 frames. Honestly. Many little leaguers get there in 6 frames. 6 frames is a really, really slow swing. But among the great players, no way, no how. Manny, A-Rod, Bonds, all of the greats are at 4-4.5 frames. That I know.

-JJA

at what speed (fps) I never have but ever count that big strong guy with the Angels?

[Go Cardinals]

So heres the question, how many frames is my swing.

[JJA]

Swingbuilder,

A standard camcorder records at 30 frames per second, which equates to 0.033 seconds (33 milliseconds) per video frame. Thus a typical big league swing takes between 132 milliseconds (4 frames) and 165 milliseconds (5 frames) from front foot down to ball contact. If a higher frame rate camera was used (60 frames per second, or even higher) than obviously this frame rule would have to be modified. But for a standard camcorder that everyone owns, this is the rule of thumb that DMac used. It really is the time that is of interest, but because everyone uses a 30 frame per second camcorder, time and frame count are essentially identical.

Are you referring to Tim Salmon? Vlad? Glaus? The Angels have had some big guys some I'm not sure who you're referring to.

-JJA

[GFK]

So heres the question, how many frames is my swing.

From front heel drop, 6 frames.
From barrel motion, 5 frames.

[Encinitas]

Swingbuilder,

I've got more than 1600 clips in my video library, and although I haven't counted frames in all 1600, I can honestly say that I have never seen a big league swing remotely close to 6 frames. Honestly. Many little leaguers get there in 6 frames. 6 frames is a really, really slow swing. But among the great players, no way, no how. Manny, A-Rod, Bonds, all of the greats are at 4-4.5 frames. That I know.

-JJA

Youkilis in my opinion looks 5.5 here:
http://coachdm.hittingillustrated.com/clips/youkilis_050807_side.gif

On on this swing he looks 6.5.
http://coachdm.hittingillustrated.com/clips/youkilis_042906_front.gif

[swingbuilder]

Thanks encinitas, that's one of my points.

JJA, lets take all the ones you mentioned with the Angels.

There's more varibales to consider than just frame's. And there is more to consider than just.....


vision, smarts, a brain with great pattern recognition ability, toughness, confidence, work ethic, etc.

But make no mistake about it, no matter how smart, how tough, how cocky, 20/10 vision, with the world's greatest work ethic, if you've got the whole package but a swing with 5+ frames of delay, you're done in the big leagues.

not true based on the way you stated this.

[JJA]

Guys,

Please re-read what 4for4 posted from DMac. I'll repeat here for completeness:

I basically do it the same way as Steve, except I tie in the footplant and first bathead movement together. Most of the time the bathead will start moving when the foot is planted solidly, but not always. If the hitter picks up the change or something other than a fastball he will usually have a slight delay (about 1 frame) before the bat starts to move. In that case, I will go on the first bathead movement. For the most part, I go on first bathead movement, but the good hitters have it going at the same time the foot is firmly planted, so you will get the same count either way if the hitter is sitting fastball and gets a fastball.

When scouting, I will run the clip back and forth about 10 times, so that I am sure in my mind of the frame count. The real good amatuer HS and College hitters are 4-5 frames when they get the fastball.

The 4-5 frames are for a fastball, not a pitch when the batter is fooled or a breaking ball as you showed in the clips. You're certainly right, it's a higher frame count when they're fooled or when it's a breaking ball. You can't hit a Joel Zumaya fastball with 6 frames of delay, but you can hit his breaking ball with that much delay.

-JJA

[JJA]

Don't forget, 1 frame of delay on a 95 mph fastball equates to 4.6 feet. Obviously a swing that is more than 4 1/2 feet quicker is much better able to hit the hard stuff than the less quick swing.

[Encinitas]

Guys,

Please re-read what 4for4 posted from DMac. I'll repeat here for completeness:



The 4-5 frames are for a fastball, not a pitch when the batter is fooled or a breaking ball as you showed in the clips. You're certainly right, it's a higher frame count when they're fooled or when it's a breaking ball. You can't hit a Joel Zumaya fastball with 6 frames of delay, but you can hit his breaking ball with that much delay.

-JJA

Does anyone have the exact date on this quote? Remember the Dmac conversion to "get the bat up in the air" was in late summer of 2006.

The reason I ask is that in the several months that Dmac was actively involved at hittingillustrated I don't remember talking about frame counts that much. Mainly because if you have a tipped bathead, AND you are facing off speed... going by bathead movement is kind of hard unless they have gotten back on plane. At least in Youkilis clip it makes the swing seen longer if we go by bathead movement.

[Chris O'Leary]

Youkilis in my opinion looks 5.5 here:
http://coachdm.hittingillustrated.com/clips/youkilis_050807_side.gif

I count 5.


On on this swing he looks 6.5.
http://coachdm.hittingillustrated.com/clips/youkilis_042906_front.gif

It looks like the pitch was in the 80s (and maybe an 80 MPH change-up).

Also, the frame rate on each clip is 33FPS, which will distort things slightly.

[4for4]

Does anyone have the exact date on this quote? Remember the Dmac conversion to "get the bat up in the air" was in late summer of 2006.

November 27, 2006.

He also posted that he took the bat head movement into consideration and used Bonds and Foxx as examples.

[4for4]

I count 5.

As do I. And he's getting it more out front, or so it seems to me.

[Chris O'Leary]

And he's getting it more out front, or so it seems to me.

Agreed.

The pitch also looks like a sinker or change-up, based on what the C's glove does.

[Encinitas]

Agreed.

The pitch also looks like a sinker or change-up, based on what the C's glove does.

Well I just went through Dmac's posting history at hittingillustrated. In the six months that he was posting (Dec. 06-May 07) I saw one post that made reference to frame counts.

Now, we should all keep in mind that from last fall through the winter, he was teaching his son to add in bat tipping. That is he wasn't teaching some LL kid, but a guy who just finished his first year of pro-ball.

I think it's safe to say when Dmac had his AHA MomentTM, that bat tipping or barrel loading became the number one priority with his kid, and likely this is why he didn't spend any time telling us to worry about frame counts.

Here is the one post he had:
As far as frame counting goes, I think many people do it differently. I go "most of the time" from the first movement of the bathead after the front foot comes down solid until contact. I get Kevin in just a hair over 5 frames which is very good. In the Vlad clip, Vlad is just about 5 frames, and he is great.

I used to get my son in 4 frames flat many times......the problem was his swing sucked. He was quick, but had no load and just cut accross the ball. In his recent BP clips, he is just a little under 5 frames, but is smoking the ball.

So first look at solid foot plant, then look at first movement of the bathead, I misunderstood that to be look at first movement of the bathead.

In any case, what I think is interesting is what he had to say about the days when he was worrying about frame counts. At 4 frames the swing sucked. What good is mere contact for a 6'5" guy if he has no load.

Also if we consider the context the only reason Dmac talked frame count is because Sandman specifically asked for it. And still he seemed to say "this is not what's most important for your kid". 6 months of relative silence on the frame counts, but no silence at all regarding tip and rip.

[4for4]

Well I just went through Dmac's posting history at hittingillustrated. In the six months that he was posting (Dec. 06-May 07) I saw one post that made reference to frame counts.

Now, we should all keep in mind that from last fall through the winter, he was teaching his son to add in bat tipping. That is he wasn't teaching some LL kid, but a guy who just finished his first year of pro-ball.

I think it's safe to say when Dmac had his AHA MomentTM, that bat tipping or barrel loading became the number one priority with his kid, and likely this is why he didn't spend any time telling us to worry about frame counts.

Here is the one post he had:


So first look at solid foot plant, then look at first movement of the bathead, I misunderstood that to be look at first movement of the bathead.

In any case, what I think is interesting is what he had to say about the days when he was worrying about frame counts. At 4 frames the swing sucked. What good is mere contact for a 6'5" guy if he has no load.

Also if we consider the context the only reason Dmac talked frame count is because Sandman specifically asked for it. And still he seemed to say "this is not what's most important for your kid". 6 months of relative silence on the frame counts, but no silence at all regarding tip and rip.

Yep, and he posted his son's swings on Englishbey Hitting. Interestingly enough, one of the things that Steve told him that he thought would help his son was to get the bat up more and to get his hands out away from his body more because they seemed to be trapped.

But, once again you are off track. This discussion really has nothing to do with tip and rip. It's about creating an objective, reliable analytical method for evaluating a swing. That's the standard that Dmac used and that's the standard he applied in part to projecting a player. A player that may get a multi-million dollar contract.

[wogdoggy]

A couple of questions.... who here played pro ball? Woggy did you? 4 for 4 did you?

Also, what did dmac think about you?


back in the 70's everybody played ball especially if you had an arm and threw as hard as I did..i pitched, i was fast had a great curve i was six foot four 230,still today at 50 years old i can throw a baseball 310 to 320 feet on a fly ,,problem was when i wasnt pitching the game boored the heck out of me..I opted for basketball was real good but didnt like running 'mandatory' cross country ...got a liscense, got some girls and went that way..The kid I started over and beat up daily got a full scholarship to de paul.he sat the bench but got the ride..you didnt really have to be as good as kids do now a days to play ball in college athletes are unbelievable compared to my generation ..after high school i became a runner at the cme in chicago and became a broker and have been self employed since the day i left high school..if i had to do it all again i would do it the same way..remember sonny 99. 9 ...999.. percent of us will become pros at something other than sports..so 4 fo 4 playing college or "SEMI" pro ball or steve getting drafted in 1970 doesnt mean diddly..heres a fine example..the guy next to me was an X broker "signed" by Goldman Sachs the most elite brokerage group in our industry and quite frankly he couldnt make a winning trade with tommorow's newspaper..all that stuff means nothing..maybe the garbage man next door can teach my kid to hit better than 4 by 4 ..who knows?:rofl:

What did d mac think of me?
he liked my kid and took the time to say get his hands in the swing hold the bat vertical and tip..just like every BIG hitter does..dont understand the point of what d mac thinks of me?

[FiveFrameSwing]

quite frankly he couldnt make a winning trade with tommorow's newspaper..


Thanks for the chuckle :)

[wogdoggy]

Yep, and he posted his son's swings on Englishbey Hitting. Interestingly enough, one of the things that Steve told him that he thought would help his son was to get the bat up more and to get his hands out away from his body more because they seemed to be trapped.

But, once again you are off track. This discussion really has nothing to do with tip and rip. It's about creating an objective, reliable analytical method for evaluating a swing. That's the standard that Dmac used and that's the standard he applied in part to projecting a player. A player that may get a multi-million dollar contract.

he might of explained it eiter at HS web or shawns site..maybe a search migh find something on his method

[4for4]

remember sonny 99. 9 ...999.. percent of us will become pros at something other than sports..so 4 fo 4 playing college or "SEMI" pro ball or steve getting drafted in 1970 doesnt mean diddly..

Well it means a little more than diddly but I get your point. And my point is why make the signing crack in the first place while the rest of us are in the midst of a good discussion. Maybe you have a little more to offer than a quip here and there.

[4for4]

he might of explained it eiter at HS web or shawns site..maybe a search migh find something on his method

Sorry, I'm not tracking. Who might have explained what?

[swingbuilder]

JJA, good stuff.

[Encinitas]

Yep, and he posted his son's swings on Englishbey Hitting. Interestingly enough, one of the things that Steve told him that he thought would help his son was to get the bat up more and to get his hands out away from his body more because they seemed to be trapped.

But, once again you are off track. This discussion really has nothing to do with tip and rip. It's about creating an objective, reliable analytical method for evaluating a swing. That's the standard that Dmac used and that's the standard he applied in part to projecting a player. A player that may get a multi-million dollar contract.

Most of here are not projecting million-dollar players at least not yet. We are responsible for teaching them a good load and to smash a baseball.

In SoCal a five-frame swing means squat if you can't get off the bench and play. My son is under 5 frames on a tee, but game swings are usually over 6, and Dmac never once mentioned frames. He was more pleased with the load and said it will get better with strength and quickness.

All I am saying is if you guys want to cherry pick the frame count and ignore how he thought we should teach fine, but that is in fact what you are doing.

[swingbuilder]

JJ

"swing process" includes the creation of separation by way of the running start which occurs long before "go"....during the wait time.

Something 4/4 well, EH doesn't understand since they insist, contrary to video of the best, that everything "goes" from a closed position. They do this so as to have more distance over which to apply force. But they sacrifice the ability to "stretch and fire"....and therefore they will NEVER learn to stop bat drag....which is inherent to that teaching method.

"GO" deals with the hands and ultimately thats what the real issue is.

JJA let me also ask you, After HI was created where did Dmac spend much of his internet time?

[wogdoggy]

Englishbey was signed. You?

4 X 4 the signing crap was your quote..why go there it means DIDLEY..you should be a politician...

[wogdoggy]

Well it means a little more than diddly but I get your point. And my point is why make the signing crack in the first place while the rest of us are in the midst of a good discussion. Maybe you have a little more to offer than a quip here and there.


are you OK?

[4for4]

Most of here are not projecting million-dollar players at least not yet. We are responsible for teaching them a good load and to smash a baseball.

Yes, but do you have some objective analytical approach to measuring improvement. That's why the standard is good to use and that's at the center of this discussion. Practice, tape, review, look for improvement, attempt to implement change and do it all again till you get to the destination.

In SoCal a five-frame swing means squat if you can't get off the bench and play. My son is under 5 frames on a tee, but game swings are usually over 6, and Dmac never once mentioned frames. He was more pleased with the load and said it will get better with strength and quickness.

Good, I'm a big believer in the loading process and I understand the strength issue and how it cascades. But, it's important to use an objective standard to measure improvement.

All I am saying is if you guys want to cherry pick the frame count and ignore how he thought we should teach fine, but that is in fact what you are doing.

Com'on Doug, read the entire post. I put up Dmac's thoughts on how this teaching should unfold and I happen to agree with them. I'm sure it wasn't all encompassing, but in general it covers the issue pretty well, IMO. You're the one that cherry picked just the tip and rip part. Dmac didn't strike me as a monolith.

[4for4]

.........................

[Go Cardinals]

So, does my swing need to be less frames?

[Go Cardinals]

From front heel drop, 6 frames.
From barrel motion, 5 frames.

If the tee is closer, do you think it will go down?

[JK-CA]

My father has scouted for years. It's for the most part a rule that they need to send in a video of anyone cross-checked. Same with most organizations. And they all use the method of counting that DMac used. Doing it from the imaginary "go" is inconclusive as it leaves too much room for error.

[Go Cardinals]

My father has scouted for years. It's for the most part a rule that they need to send in a video of anyone cross-checked. Same with most organizations. And they all use the method of counting that DMac used. Doing it from the imaginary "go" is inconclusive as it leaves too much room for error.

So does that meen that my frame count will go down if the tee is far away, or do I need to be faster?

[GFK]

If the tee is closer, do you think it will go down?

Another freebe for your GC. Lets see what your swing looks like against live arm or front toss. Grab some video from the front and side. Try to get some stuff slightly below the belt and on the middle third of the plate. Give me a hollar when you have the video. I will make an FTP location such that you can upload the video in its raw format. Then I will deinterlace it from 29.97fps interlaced to 59.94 fps progressive. From there, you should be able to get a pretty good idea of what you need to change from you own review of the video.

Did you go do some research on the characteristics of Explicit and Implicit Learning like I suggested earlier? You may find the info interesting with respect to "why high level hitters can usually not describe what they are doing."

[GFK]

My father has scouted for years. It's for the most part a rule that they need to send in a video of anyone cross-checked. Same with most organizations. And they all use the method of counting that DMac used. Doing it from the imaginary "go" is inconclusive as it leaves too much room for error.

I think the motive for creating the imaginary "go" is to lower the standard and make it ambiguous such that some can claim victory in meeting the standard. Same idea as lowering educational standards so educators / politicians can claim a higher pass rate in public schools.

[wogdoggy]

So does that meen that my frame count will go down if the tee is far away, or do I need to be faster?

relax kid and play ball...dont get caught up in this stuff..your a player not a video frame counter,,go and enjoy:highfive::twocents:

[swingbuilder]

Bottom line...the best hitters, the best, like Bonds and Williams started the swing before foot plant. The swing made the foot plant. Who cares about the frame count.

GFK now you know in the state of Tx. that lowering educational standards so educators / politicians can claim a higher pass rate in public schools.

is not happening. The standards actually went up just to be a "recognized" school.

[Erik]

[QUOTE=swingbuilder;1075532]Bottom line...the best hitters, the best, like Bonds and Williams started the swing before foot plant. The swing made the foot plant.


I have seen this in clips with Soriano. IMO this seems to be an effect of seeing the ball well, and good timeing of the load and unload.


EL,