View Full Version : Lead Arm Extension
I am trying to figure out what Yeager is saying and trying to figure out if he is right . The part about lead arm extension . He is saying lead arm extension at seperation back towards the catcher or loaded posistion and keep extension thru contact . This doesn't go along with Slaught or the PCR guys does it. Sorry this may be a repeated question but this sounds wrong .
Go Cardinals
12-17-2007, 05:46 PM
...........
Go Cardinal , What are these pictures suppost to prove . This is what kills me about this site . All these smart baseball people on here and you throw up a couple clips to prove your point . Where is EL or chris oLeary when you need them .They can put clips on here to prove you wrong . We can find many clips on this for and against. What's the right answere and why!
Go Cardinals
12-17-2007, 06:10 PM
Go Cardinal , What are these pictures suppost to prove . This is what kills me about this site . All these smart baseball people on here and you throw up a couple clips to prove your point . Where is EL or chris oLeary when you need them .They can put clips on here to prove you wrong . We can find many clips on this for and against. What's the right answere and why!
I wasn't trying to tell you what is right or not. I wasn't prooving a point, but just answering a question. I was just trying to show you what lead arm extension is... How can Chris and Erik proove me wrong if I am just showing you what lead arm extension is... like you asked.
Love you to!
Go Cardinal ,I apologize for the misunderstanding . I just watched these Yeager cds and I disagree with this lead arm extension . I keep hearing on this site how great these cds are and I was kind of disapointed. I guess I expected to much . I think the slaught instructional cd is alot better. I would love to here some thoughts on this lead arm extension .
I am trying to figure out what Yeager is saying and trying to figure out if he is right . The part about lead arm extension . He is saying lead arm extension at seperation back towards the catcher or loaded posistion and keep extension thru contact . This doesn't go along with Slaught or the PCR guys does it. Sorry this may be a repeated question but this sounds wrong .
JayC,
He is saying lead arm extension at seperation back towards the catcher or loaded posistion and keep extension thru contact .
I agree with this. I think understanding the amount of extension needs to be cleared up. This can make or break the swing. The amount of extension
can get to extreme during seperation or in the loaded position can bar the front arm creating some drag and drive into the knob . This creates a problem when turning the knob and barrel. IMO this creates a loss of bat speed and restricts natural swing motion. I believe I see the good swing work into full extension out in front not before.
EL,
Go Cardinals
12-17-2007, 07:23 PM
JayC,
He is saying lead arm extension at seperation back towards the catcher or loaded posistion and keep extension thru contact .
I agree with this. I think understanding the amount of extension needs to be cleared up. This can make or break the swing. The amount of extension
can get to extreme during seperation or in the loaded position can bar the front arm creating some drag and drive into the knob . This creates a problem when turning the knob and barrel. IMO this creates a loss of bat speed and restricts natural swing motion. I believe I see the good swing work into full extension out in front not before.
EL,
Thank you. I was never giving an opinion. I was just saying it how Yeager said it in the dvd's.
EL, I totally agree with what you are saying here. I kept hearing on this site how great the Yeager cds were and I really wasn't that impressed . What do you think about the back leg load and push into a front leg block and push that Yeager talks about .
Go Cardinals
12-17-2007, 07:32 PM
EL, I totally agree with what you are saying here. I kept hearing on this site how great the Yeager cds were and I really wasn't that impressed . What do you think about the back leg load and push into a front leg block and push that Yeager talks about .
I know you asked erik to answer this one, but I am going to give my opinion, because I have been thinking about this issue alot ever since I watched his dvd.
I think what he talks about is important, but not practicle. I don't think that it is possible to push as much as he wants in a high level swing.
What do you think?
Lady_Knights
12-17-2007, 07:43 PM
I do not believe in lead arm extention through contact, normally, but I do feel that there may be some extension on outside pitches, or when a batter gets fooled. Don't teach it, or talk about it, it happens or it doesn't. JMHO
FiveFrameSwing
12-17-2007, 08:28 PM
I am trying to figure out what Yeager is saying and trying to figure out if he is right . The part about lead arm extension . He is saying lead arm extension at seperation back towards the catcher or loaded posistion and keep extension thru contact . This doesn't go along with Slaught or the PCR guys does it. Sorry this may be a repeated question but this sounds wrong .
Take a second look at Slaught's review of the "Positive Move". In his examples the MLB players extend their lead arm back towards the catcher during this phase of the swing (i.e., the positive move).
Slaught doesn't specifically speak to "lead arm extension" either way. He doesn't say to do it, nor does he say not to do it. Therefore I can't agree that Slaught is in disagreement on this topic. The examples that he uses surely show that it is taking place. He just doesn't talk about it.
FiveFrameSwing
12-17-2007, 08:32 PM
Go Cardinal ,I apologize for the misunderstanding . I just watched these Yeager cds and I disagree with this lead arm extension . I keep hearing on this site how great these cds are and I was kind of disapointed. I guess I expected to much . I think the slaught instructional cd is alot better. I would love to here some thoughts on this lead arm extension .
Now that is funny.
You say that Slaught's DVD material is better, except you wish to learn about "lead arm extension" and Slaught totally overlooked that topic. Compare that to Yeager who not only highlights it, but states that the amount of lead arm extension obtained is one of the determining metrics for hitting with power.
How can you say Slaught is better when he doesn't even cover the material?
Go Cardinals
12-17-2007, 08:38 PM
Go Cardinal ,I apologize for the misunderstanding . I just watched these Yeager cds and I disagree with this lead arm extension . I keep hearing on this site how great these cds are and I was kind of disapointed. I guess I expected to much . I think the slaught instructional cd is alot better. I would love to here some thoughts on this lead arm extension .
Wow, I never saw this post... Apology accepted and I can agree w/ you on something... I was a little dissapointed by his dvd. He never really talked about hands or anything!
FiveFrameSwing
12-17-2007, 08:40 PM
EL, I totally agree with what you are saying here. I kept hearing on this site how great the Yeager cds were and I really wasn't that impressed . What do you think about the back leg load and push into a front leg block and push that Yeager talks about .
I'm curious what you didn't like about Chris Yeager's material. So far your only complaint seems to be on lead-arm extension, yet he's one of the few that have highlighted this information. Compare that to other instructors that either totally miss the idea or who even get it backwards and advocate a 90-degree bend ... or worse yet, there are some that advocate maintaining the angle during the positive move. Then there are instructors that advocate maintaining the 90-degree angle virtually into contact.
Sounds to me like you didn't understand the material.
I'd give the DVDs another viewing or two. Hopefully it will sink in.
EL, I totally agree with what you are saying here. I kept hearing on this site how great the Yeager cds were and I really wasn't that impressed . What do you think about the back leg load and push into a front leg block and push that Yeager talks about .
What do you think about the back leg load and push into a front leg block and push that Yeager talks about .
I think this is an accurate approach. The hitter needs leverage and a certain amount of push or carry off the backside. I have had success with both approaches. I think from what I get from Chris's CD he believes the push should be strong to the front leg. The amount of leverage and force against the ground effects the ground up swing.
EL,
Lady_Knights
12-17-2007, 09:41 PM
What do you think about the back leg load and push into a front leg block and push that Yeager talks about .
I think this is an accurate approach. The hitter needs leverage and a certain amount of push or carry off the backside. I have had success with both approaches. I think from what I get from Chris's CD he believes the push should be strong to the front leg. The amount of leverage and force against the ground effects the ground up swing.
EL,
I'm sorry but I just don't buy this logic. I just don't see a push off the back side into the front side, in any of Pujols swings, which appears to be the measuring stick, to compare swings. There is weight transfer, but not caused by a hard push from the back side. Feel free to change my mind, but that is how I see it.
BoardMember
12-17-2007, 09:57 PM
I'm sorry but I just don't buy this logic. I just don't see a push off the back side into the front side, in any of Pujols swings, which appears to be the measuring stick, to compare swings. There is weight transfer, but not caused by a hard push from the back side. Feel free to change my mind, but that is how I see it.
Not trying to change your mind, but I'd think twice before deciding how much rear leg drive it takes to move this monster.
His thighs are a HUGE.
http://i19.tinypic.com/73d3gnb.gifhttp://i2.tinypic.com/87bzcar.gif
Lady_Knights
12-17-2007, 10:02 PM
Not trying to change your mind, but I'd think twice before deciding how much rear leg drive it takes to move this monster.
His thighs are a HUGE.
http://i19.tinypic.com/73d3gnb.gifhttp://i2.tinypic.com/87bzcar.gif
Still not convinced!! At heel plant his back heel is coming off the ground, he is not pushing at this point.
In Erik's post he states that the hitter is pushing into a blocked front side. By the time Pujols is blocked, his back foot is off the ground. How do you push with your foot off the ground?
Still not convinced!! At heel plant his back heel is coming off the ground, he is not pushing at this point.
In Erik's post he states that the hitter is pushing into a blocked front side. By the time Pujols is blocked, his back foot is off the ground. How do you push with your foot off the ground?
The push was from the back to front. This is how the back heel works up and back knee works forward. The clip on the right clearly shows this.
EL,
FiveFrameSwing
12-17-2007, 10:12 PM
At heel plant his back heel is coming off the ground, he is not pushing at this point.
Are you serious?
Take a look at the lead leg. Do you not see the lead leg pushing back? What do you think is causing the lead leg to extend? Do you see that this lead leg push back is causing the hips and lead arm to accelerate?
Do you understand that it is this push back by the lead leg that gives him this acceleration? Do you feel that he'd have this strong lead leg push back if he didn't have a back leg push?
Lady_Knights
12-17-2007, 10:16 PM
Are you serious?
Take a look at the lead leg. Do you not see the lead leg pushing back? What do you think is causing the lead leg to extend? Do you see that this lead leg push back is causing the hips and lead arm to accelerate?
Do you understand that it is this push back by the lead leg that gives him this acceleration? Do you feel that he'd have this strong lead leg push back if he didn't have a back leg push?
Five Frame, you misread something..
I did not state that the front foot was not pushing back, I said the back foot was not pushing forward...
Lady_Knights
12-17-2007, 10:18 PM
Here's how I see it, in "Are you smarter than a 5th grader" terms....
I see a slight weight shift, or load to the back side. As he lifts his front foot, the angle of his legs in his stance, which looks like and inverted V, cause the body to fall forward, he quickly drops his front foot back to toe touch, and a soft knee. Landing on the toe, with a soft knee, will allow the hips to move slightly forward. As the front foot goes to heel plant, the heel of the back foot will start to lift, at the same time, the back elbow will start moving into the slot, as the bottom hand is moving forward. When the back elbow reaches the slot position, the upper body will then start moving in a rotational pattern. THis is how I see it.
Here's how I see it, in "Are you smarter than a 5th grader" terms....
I see a slight weight shift, or load to the back side. As he lifts his front foot, the angle of his legs in his stance, which looks like and inverted V, cause the body to fall forward, he quickly drops his front foot back to toe touch, and a soft knee. Landing on the toe, with a soft knee, will allow the hips to move slightly forward. As the front foot goes to heel plant, the heel of the back foot will start to lift, at the same time, the back elbow will start moving into the slot, as the bottom hand is moving forward. When the back elbow reaches the slot position, the upper body will then start moving in a rotational pattern. THis is how I see it.
As he lifts his front foot, the angle of his legs in his stance, which looks like and inverted V, cause the body to fall forward, he quickly drops his front foot back to toe touch, and a soft knee.
If the back leg is flexed is there a push? If the back leg is straighened does the body fall?
EL,
FiveFrameSwing
12-17-2007, 10:24 PM
Five Frame, you misread something..
I did not state that the front foot was not pushing back, I said the back foot was not pushing forward...
How do you figure his midsection is moving forward by about a foot if he isn't pushing forward?
I think some people forget that while the speed of the forward push is slow, that it is still powerful.
The stronger the push forward, the stronger the push back, and the faster the acceleration. You can over look this, but you'll be throwing away your biggest source of power in the swing.
FiveFrameSwing
12-17-2007, 10:27 PM
If the back leg is flexed is there a push? If the back leg is straighened does the body fall?
Is it just me, or are people being silly tonight?
Try this experiment with a student. Ask them to stride forward. As they lift their front foot up, give their rear shoulder a push forward in a straight line towards the pitcher. Notice how they land. They will almost automatically land with knee flexion and balance.
If you have a student not landing with flexion in their front knee then you want to take care of that immediately, because without that their push back will be poor, their rotation will be weak and their bat speed will be suboptimal.
Lady_Knights
12-17-2007, 10:28 PM
As he lifts his front foot, the angle of his legs in his stance, which looks like and inverted V, cause the body to fall forward, he quickly drops his front foot back to toe touch, and a soft knee.
If the back leg is flexed is there a push? If the back leg is straighened does the body fall?
EL,
Stand up out of your chair and spread your feet as far as Pujols does. Then pick up your front foot, and tell me what happens?
I'll tell you...you put your foot back down to catch yourself, or you fall on your face. As you put your front foot down your back heel will raise, and you never once began to push with that back foot. Prove me wrong on that!!
Lady_Knights
12-17-2007, 10:29 PM
Is it just me, or are people being silly tonight?
Try this experiment with a student. Ask them to stride forward. As they lift their front foot up give their rear shoulder a push forward in a straight line towards the pitcher. Notice how they land. They will almost automatically land with knee flexion and balance.
Exactly the same as if you didn't push them.
BoardMember
12-17-2007, 10:29 PM
Still not convinced!! At heel plant his back heel is coming off the ground, he is not pushing at this point.
In Erik's post he states that the hitter is pushing into a blocked front side. By the time Pujols is blocked, his back foot is off the ground. How do you push with your foot off the ground?
Knight, sorry I didn't understand this was your point.
Just for rocks I've frozen Pujols at "block". The point at which he blocks his momentum from further forward movement and turns it into pure rotation.
It appears the ball of the back foot is still in contact with the ground. So who's to decide IF he has stopped pushing at this moment in time?
http://i7.tinypic.com/8bzq72e.gif
Just a thought to ponder........:highfive:
FiveFrameSwing
12-17-2007, 10:35 PM
Still not convinced!! At heel plant his back heel is coming off the ground, he is not pushing at this point.
In Erik's post he states that the hitter is pushing into a blocked front side. By the time Pujols is blocked, his back foot is off the ground. How do you push with your foot off the ground?
I'm beginning to see the confusion.
The push from the backside is already complete once the back heel is off the ground. Yeager explains this in his DVD.
In a sense, what you are saying is that there is no more pushing with the back leg once the back leg is finished pushing ... which I suppose makes sense.
Lady_Knights
12-17-2007, 10:39 PM
My real point is, we all see and look at things differently, and come to our own conclusions, and alot of the times are misunderstanding one another. I don't feel that any of you are wrong, in what you believe, I just don't see it your way.:highfive:
Stand up out of your chair and spread your feet as far as Pujols does. Then pick up your front foot, and tell me what happens?
I'll tell you...you put your foot back down to catch yourself, or you fall on your face. As you put your front foot down your back heel will raise, and you never once began to push with that back foot. Prove me wrong on that!!
Lady Knights,
Stand up out of your chair and spread your feet as far as Pujols does. Then pick up your front foot, and tell me what happens?
Albert doesn't just pick the front foot up. I see a slight load to the back side then slight push forward.
EL,
Lady_Knights
12-17-2007, 10:40 PM
Lady Knights,
Stand up out of your chair and spread your feet as far as Pujols does. Then pick up your front foot, and tell me what happens?
Albert doesn't just pick the front foot up. I see a slight load to the back side then slight push forward.
EL,
SEE ABOVE POST....
BoardMember
12-17-2007, 10:42 PM
Stand up out of your chair and spread your feet as far as Pujols does. Then pick up your front foot, and tell me what happens?
I can tell you what doesn't happen when doing your experiment. This much forward movement of the entire body from 1" fall on "level ground". It's pretty obvious that this is a push:
http://i12.tinypic.com/72hl2dy.gif
Knight, I can see what your saying. I just think it's a push.
Lady_Knights
12-17-2007, 10:45 PM
I can tell you what doesn't happen when doing your experiment. This much forward movement of the entire body from 1" fall on "level ground". It's pretty obvious that this is a push:
http://i12.tinypic.com/72hl2dy.gif
What you see Mr. Houdini, are "smoke and mirrors", and not a push at all. You are observing the hip slide created from landing on a soft front knee. Again, you all see what you want to see, but don' be fooled.
BoardMember
12-17-2007, 10:49 PM
Then we'll agree to disagree. BTW, as fellow softball coaches we will remain respectfull of each other's views OK? :highfive:
What you see Mr. Houdini, are "smoke and mirrors", and not a push at all. You are observing the hip slide created from landing on a soft front knee. Again, you all see what you want to see, but don' be fooled.
Lady_Knights
12-17-2007, 10:50 PM
I can tell you what doesn't happen when doing your experiment. This much forward movement of the entire body from 1" fall on "level ground". It's pretty obvious that this is a push:
http://i12.tinypic.com/72hl2dy.gif
Knight, I can see what your saying. I just think it's a push.
Fair Enough!!
Lady_Knights
12-17-2007, 10:53 PM
Whats all this have to do with lead arm extension anyways? :noidea
Shayne
FiveFrameSwing
12-17-2007, 10:54 PM
I can tell you what doesn't happen when doing your experiment. This much forward movement of the entire body from 1" fall on "level ground". It's pretty obvious that this is a push:
http://i12.tinypic.com/72hl2dy.gif
Knight, I can see what your saying. I just think it's a push.
I appreciate you drawing the red line.
It's clear from this that he's moving his midsection (belly button) about a foot or more forward. That surely isn't happening on its own.
Whats all this have to do with lead arm extension anyways? :noidea
Shayne
I forgot coach. :yawn::yawn::yawn:
EL
BoardMember
12-17-2007, 10:57 PM
Fair Enough!!
I guess one could construe it as a "reach" instead of a "push"......
http://i1.tinypic.com/72a39r7.gif
When teaching separation I must admit I do use "reach and load" more then I say "push and load".
FiveFrameSwing
12-17-2007, 10:57 PM
What you see Mr. Houdini, are "smoke and mirrors", and not a push at all. You are observing the hip slide created from landing on a soft front knee. Again, you all see what you want to see, but don' be fooled.
Hip slide you say???
Look at where his belly button starts and where it is at the point of heel plant.
He clearly has pushed himself forward by about a full foot.
Lady_Knights
12-17-2007, 10:58 PM
How many of you have ever thrown fastpitch? If you have, you would have a better understanding of how swing mechanics work. The basic fundamentals of throwing underhand, directly relate to the mechanics of the swing.
How many of you have ever thrown fastpitch? If you have, you would have a better understanding of how swing mechanics work. The basic fundamentals of throwing underhand, directly relate to the mechanics of the swing.
Coach,
please explain this theory.
EL,
Lady_Knights
12-17-2007, 11:02 PM
Hip slide you say???
Look at where his belly button starts and where it is at the point of heel plant.
He clearly has pushed himself forward by about a full foot.
Five Frame I don't expect to change your mind, as you will not change mine. But video tape yourself, doing the drill as I stated, and you will clearly see what I state is true. Your axis, or midline, or belly button, will shift forward, and you will never even have to push.
FiveFrameSwing
12-17-2007, 11:02 PM
How many of you have ever thrown fastpitch? If you have, you would have a better understanding of how swing mechanics work. The basic fundamentals of throwing underhand, directly relate to the mechanics of the swing.
Been there and done that.
Let's hear your explanation.
p.s.
Bill Hillhouse is on record as stating that the windmill pitch equates to taking the overhand throw and turning it upside down. If you know Bill then you know that he pitches fastpitch on a national level. I met him a few months ago and he still maintains that position on teaching windmill pitching.
BoardMember
12-17-2007, 11:03 PM
Oh don't get me started with windmill. You won't convince me that I "fall" off the mound. Neither do any of my D1 pitchers.......
Leg drive is paramount in fastpitch........
How many of you have ever thrown fastpitch? If you have, you would have a better understanding of how swing mechanics work. The basic fundamentals of throwing underhand, directly relate to the mechanics of the swing.
BoardMember
12-17-2007, 11:07 PM
Here, have some fun:
http://i15.tinypic.com/63rqqub.gif
FiveFrameSwing
12-17-2007, 11:07 PM
Five Frame I don't expect to change your mind, as you will not change mine. But video tape yourself, doing the drill as I stated, and you will clearly see what I state is true. Your axis, or midline, or belly button, will shift forward, and you will never even have to push.
Coach, let's respectfully disagree.
In closing I'll re-state a quote from Chris Yeager.
"Pushing against the ground is a human’s greatest source of force generation."
FiveFrameSwing
12-17-2007, 11:10 PM
Oh don't get me started with windmill. You won't convince me that I "fall" off the mound. Neither do any of my D1 pitchers.......
Leg drive is paramount in fastpitch........
According to Bill Hillhouse one's legs are the greatest source of power for a fastpitch pitcher. Bill will often state that a pitcher can't push off the rubber hard enough.
Yeager was right when he said "pushing against the ground is a human’s greatest source of force generation.
Knights: Still not convinced!! At heel plant his back heel is coming off the ground, he is not pushing at this point.
I hope you don't have Yeager's DVDs because if so, you missed a glaring point that is maybe the strongest- eye opening point he drives home--- and that is:
Yeager:
"the back leg push must be COMPLETED BEFORE the front leg blocks."
Cardinals--as to the push he recommends being too strong, you must not have seen how he teaches the push on the drill DVD...
Yeager on extension: He drives home the point that the extension should be "relaxed" and NOT locked out--and that adjustments can be made on lead arm extension, "especially if the hitter is late on an inside pitch.
The "early lead arm extension" he talks about occurs during the back leg push when the extension occurs as a COMBINATION of the body being shifted away from the hands and the hands reaching back....
On the Barfield analysis sheet, he even lists degrees of flexion the hitter should obtain:
Back leg Load 130 deg
Back leg Push 140 deg
Front leg block 150 deg
front leg push 158 deg
reference: 180 deg would be fully extended and 90 deg would be maintaining the "L" in the front arm....
JayC--I suggest you open your mind--turn away from the "box" and squishing the bug--and spend some time with the DVDs--some people don't like some of Yeager's terminology, but as far as describing and explaining the MLB swing, no video has ever come close to Yeager's....
JayCThis doesn't go along with the PCR guys.
And not anything Yeager says goes along with PCR..If continuity with PCR is what you were looking for, you will be MOST DISAPPOINTED...
FiveFrameSwing
12-17-2007, 11:26 PM
Here, have some fun:
http://i15.tinypic.com/63rqqub.gif
Let me try to have some fun with this.
As Jenny moves from a 12 O’clock position to release she goes throw a whipping motion that we call de-sequencing. The elbow will lead the wrist, hand and ball from the ‘k’ position to just prior to release. She then goes through what Gillis refers to as a “brush assisted whip”. This is when her elbow brushes against her hip triggering the whipping action … or de-sequencing process. At this point the forearm will pass the elbow, the wrist will pass the forearm, and the ball will pass the wrist. This whipping action will accelerate the ball.
Now let’s look at Puljols. It’s possible that there is some similar action taking place.
By starting with lead arm extension (yup … you had to see that coming) … anyway, keeping the arm extended keeps the torso behind the hips. Once the torso begins to unwind you keep the extension, and that keeps the shoulders back. And once the shoulders begin to unwind the arm stays extended to keep the arm behind the shoulder. And once the arms finally come around you want to maintain the cock in the wrist to keep the hands and bat behind the arm.
Lady_Knights
12-17-2007, 11:32 PM
http://i12.tinypic.com/72hl2dy.gif
If Pujols is the measuring stick we have to use to determine what an upper level swing looks like, then Mr. Yeager is wrong. In this video, Pujols stride, is barely 2-3 inches, if that. If he were pushing off his back foot in a manner described by Mr. Yeager, his stride would be much further. I can get in that stance and just pick up my front foot and stride farther than Pujols, without pushing.
I'm not saying some hitters don't do it (push), but the measuring stick, of most on this forum doesn't push like Mr. Yeager wants you to, and hes the best out there right now. NO PUSH!!
If Pujols is the measuring stick we have to use to determine what an upper level swing looks like, then Mr. Yeager is wrong. In this video, Pujols stride, is barely 2-3 inches, if that. If he were pushing off his back foot in a manner described by Mr. Yeager, his stride would be much further. I can get in that stance and pick up my front foot and stride farther than Pujols.
I'm not saying some hitters don't do it (push), but the measuring stick, of most on this forum doesn't push like Mr. Yeager wants you to, and hes the best out there right now. NO PUSH!!
Lady Knights,
I'm not saying some hitters don't do it (push), but the measuring stick, of most on this forum doesn't push like Mr. Yeager wants you to, and hes the best out there right now. NO PUSH!![/QUOTE]
I wouldn't say he is the best out there. I would say he is one of the best.
EL,
FiveFrameSwing
12-17-2007, 11:41 PM
JayC--I suggest you open your mind--turn away from the "box" and squishing the bug--and spend some time with the DVDs--some people don't like some of Yeager's terminology, but as far as describing and explaining the MLB swing, no video has ever come close to Yeager's....
I have to say I agree. No video has ever come as close as Yeager's to describing the MLB swing.
JayC
And not anything Yeager says goes along with PCR..If continuity with PCR is what you were looking for, you will be MOST DISAPPOINTED...
I don't think Yeager meant to attack any particular teaching methodolgy so much as he wished to shed some light on what appeared to be a dark area.
Regarding your point on the "inside pitch" and "lead arm extension", what Chris stated in his DVD was the following.
"The only time you should see any flexion in the elbow just before contact is if the hitter is late on an inside pitch and he has to pull his lead arm in to adjust to it. Had he been on time for the pitch he would never pulled his lead arm in."
Knighs this has been discussed and resolved on these boards years ago.
Seach for yeager and push on this forum and see how many posts you get..You can start with this one..BTW are you saying that SB P don't push???
From:http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?p=1042090&highlight=yeager+push#post1042090
Dr. Yeager, Dr. Adair and the source of Rotation
For those of you with Dr.Yeager’s DVDs and Dr. Adair’s book, you can see that they see the driving force behind rotation the same way.
From The Physics of Baseball by Dr. Robert K. Adair, Professor of Physics, Yale University:
Pages 64-67
When the ball approaches the plate, the batter generally shifts his weight backward an inch or two. This motion is halted-and reversed by a LARGE PUSH from the REAR FOOT as the batter moves his body toward the pitcher, usually in the course of a short step.
During this “stepping into the pitch” the strong 180-pound batter PUSHES off his rear foot with a force of 300 pounds or more and over a period of about 0.2 seconds reaches a velocity of about 6mph.
When his front foot is securely planted, the batter begins to rotate his body around that foot, which is held rigidly and used as a pivot. …thus the FORWARD MOMENTUM is turned to rotation by the REACTION of the stiff front leg. Also, significant rotational energy is generated by the muscles of the torso acting through torque from the FEET.
The WEIGHT SHIFT during this time is equivalent to a motion of a body toward the pitcher with a velocity of about 6mph corresponding to a kinetic energy of perhaps 0.6 horsepower-seconds for a 180-pound batter. This energy is stored (transferred) in the motion (rotation) of the body
Lady_Knights
12-17-2007, 11:42 PM
Lady Knights,
I'm not saying some hitters don't do it (push), but the measuring stick, of most on this forum doesn't push like Mr. Yeager wants you to, and hes the best out there right now. NO PUSH!!
I wouldn't say he is the best out there. I would say he is one of the best.
EL,[/QUOTE]
Then who is? I bet there are more Pujols clips referenced on this site than any other major league hitter.
FiveFrameSwing
12-17-2007, 11:43 PM
Knights:
I hope you don't have Yeager's DVDs because if so, you missed a glaring point that is maybe the strongest- eye opening point he drives home--- and that is:
Yeager:
"the back leg push must be COMPLETED BEFORE the front leg blocks."
You are correct.
Chris Yeager makes sure to emphasize that this is important.
(Important)
Finish the push forward BEFORE the lead leg blocks!
Established major leaguers end their push to the front side by allowing the back half of the back foot to come off the ground before the front foot is completely down. This ensures a strong straight line push, and a complete momentum transfer.
5 great post!
Let me try to have some fun with this.
As Jenny moves from a 12 O’clock position to release she goes throw a whipping motion that we call de-sequencing. The elbow will lead the wrist, hand and ball from the ‘k’ position to just prior to release. She then goes through what Gillis refers to as a “brush assisted whip”. This is when her elbow brushes against her hip triggering the whipping action … or de-sequencing process. At this point the forearm will pass the elbow, the wrist will pass the forearm, and the ball will pass the wrist. This whipping action will accelerate the ball.
Now let’s look at Puljols. It’s possible that there is some similar action taking place.
By starting with lead arm extension (yup … you had to see that coming) … anyway, keeping the arm extended keeps the torso behind the hips. Once the torso begins to unwind you keep the extension, and that keeps the shoulders back. And once the shoulders begin to unwind the arm stays extended to keep the arm behind the shoulder. And once the arms finally come around you want to maintain the cock in the wrist to keep the hands and bat behind the arm.
Reply With Quote
I don't think Yeager meant to attack any particular teaching methodolgy so much as he wished to shed some light on what appeared to be a dark area.
5--- I agree--I don't think he had any agenda other than scientifically describing and explaining the MLB swing...I am just saying if you want anything like pcr, you won't see it....
FiveFrameSwing
12-17-2007, 11:49 PM
If Pujols is the measuring stick we have to use to determine what an upper level swing looks like, then Mr. Yeager is wrong. In this video, Pujols stride, is barely 2-3 inches, if that. If he were pushing off his back foot in a manner described by Mr. Yeager, his stride would be much further. I can get in that stance and just pick up my front foot and stride farther than Pujols, without pushing.
I'm not saying some hitters don't do it (push), but the measuring stick, of most on this forum doesn't push like Mr. Yeager wants you to, and hes the best out there right now. NO PUSH!!
You seem to mistakenly believe that the "shift" must equate to the "stride" distance of the front foot.
I'm still waiting for that pitching description you promised us. Will it be coming soon?
Lady_Knights
12-17-2007, 11:53 PM
You seem to mistakenly believe that the "shift" must equate to "stride" of the front foot.
I'm still waiting for that pitching description you promised us. Will it be coming soon?
Yes, In the Finch video, as her stride foot lands, to a soft front knee, her hips continue to move forward without any push from the back side. The proof is in the video.
Lady_Knights
12-17-2007, 11:54 PM
You seem to mistakenly believe that the "shift" must equate to "stride" of the front foot.
You seem to mistakenly believe that the "shift" must equate to "a push" of the back foot.
Lady_Knights
12-17-2007, 11:57 PM
You say Cola, I say Soda, its all the same but different.
KNIGHTS:
There is no point in responding to you if you are not even going to read the posts..Please go back and read what has been written...
Again--in SB Pitching and hitting:
Chris Yeager makes sure to emphasize that this is important.
(Important)
Finish the push forward BEFORE the lead leg blocks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:hp
Lady_Knights
12-17-2007, 11:59 PM
KNIGHTS:
There is no point in responding to you if you are not even going to read the posts..Please go back and read what has been written...
Again--in SB Pitching and hitting:
Chris Yeager makes sure to emphasize that this is important.
(Important)
Finish the push forward BEFORE the lead leg blocks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:hp
I read it, I understand it, I just don't agree with it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!
What part don't you understand!!!
FiveFrameSwing
12-18-2007, 12:00 AM
Yes, In the Finch video, as her stride foot lands, to a soft front knee, her hips continue to move forward without any push from the back side. The proof is in the video.
So do you believe that a hitter should have their hips glide forward after they have initiated front side blocking?
Do you seriously believe these are common characteristics of the two activities?
The proof is in the LAB:
Dr. Yeager, Dr. Adair and the source of Rotation
For those of you with Dr.Yeager’s DVDs and Dr. Adair’s book, you can see that they see the driving force behind rotation the same way.
From The Physics of Baseball by Dr. Robert K. Adair, Professor of Physics, Yale University:
Pages 64-67
When the ball approaches the plate, the batter generally shifts his weight backward an inch or two. This motion is halted-and reversed by a LARGE PUSH from the REAR FOOT as the batter moves his body toward the pitcher, usually in the course of a short step.
During this “stepping into the pitch” the strong 180-pound batter PUSHES off his rear foot with a force of 300 pounds or more and over a period of about 0.2 seconds reaches a velocity of about 6mph.
When his front foot is securely planted, the batter begins to rotate his body around that foot, which is held rigidly and used as a pivot. …thus the FORWARD MOMENTUM is turned to rotation by the REACTION of the stiff front leg. Also, significant rotational energy is generated by the muscles of the torso acting through torque from the FEET.
The WEIGHT SHIFT during this time is equivalent to a motion of a body toward the pitcher with a velocity of about 6mph corresponding to a kinetic energy of perhaps 0.6 horsepower-seconds for a 180-pound batter. This energy is stored (transferred) in the motion (rotation) of the body
Lady_Knights
12-18-2007, 12:04 AM
So do you believe that a hitter should have their hips glide forward after they have initiated front side blocking?
Do you seriously believe these are common characteristics of the two activities?
No, at Toe Touch the hips will continue to move forward, until heel plant, lead leg extension, or blocking, lands rigid, or when your front leg stiffens up, or....whatever, then rotational mechanics take over.
FiveFrameSwing
12-18-2007, 12:04 AM
You seem to mistakenly believe that the "shift" must equate to "a push" of the back foot.
Of course the "shift" takes place by a "push".
How else do you figure 300 pounds of pressure can be measured at the back foot of a 180 pound batter?
<<
Dr. Yeager, Dr. Adair and the source of Rotation
For those of you with Dr.Yeager’s DVDs and Dr. Adair’s book, you can see that they see the driving force behind rotation the same way.
From The Physics of Baseball by Dr. Robert K. Adair, Professor of Physics, Yale University:
Pages 64-67
When the ball approaches the plate, the batter generally shifts his weight backward an inch or two. This motion is halted-and reversed by a LARGE PUSH from the REAR FOOT as the batter moves his body toward the pitcher, usually in the course of a short step.
During this “stepping into the pitch” the strong 180-pound batter PUSHES off his rear foot with a force of 300 pounds or more and over a period of about 0.2 seconds reaches a velocity of about 6mph.
When his front foot is securely planted, the batter begins to rotate his body around that foot, which is held rigidly and used as a pivot. …thus the FORWARD MOMENTUM is turned to rotation by the REACTION of the stiff front leg. Also, significant rotational energy is generated by the muscles of the torso acting through torque from the FEET.
The WEIGHT SHIFT during this time is equivalent to a motion of a body toward the pitcher with a velocity of about 6mph corresponding to a kinetic energy of perhaps 0.6 horsepower-seconds for a 180-pound batter. This energy is stored (transferred) in the motion (rotation) of the body
>>
FiveFrameSwing
12-18-2007, 12:10 AM
I read it, I understand it, I just don't agree with it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!
What part don't you understand!!!
How can you not agree that the back foot push ends once the front foot initiates blocking. In fact, the push ends just prior to front side blocking. Otherwise there would a loss of energy in the swing do to inefficient momentum transfer.
The strong block of the lead leg is what results in tremendous momentum transfer. Unlike in the pitcher example with gliding hips, this isn't what you want to see in an elite swing. Hence I'm still waiting to hear how they two are similar.
JK-CA
12-18-2007, 12:11 AM
5--- I agree--I don't think he had any agenda other than scientifically describing and explaining the MLB swing...I am just saying if you want anything like pcr, you won't see it....
I don't know Paul Nyman or Steve Englishbey. Spoken briefly to them on the phone regarding there products. But I will say when you make a comment like the one above, it is completely irresponsible, because a parent lurking is attempting to get information for their kids. And when they read something such as this, they might actually believe it and ignore a source of good data to help improve their kid.
The whole anti nyman/englishbey/pcr sentiment and comments like what you just wrote are agenda driven. You write this stuff with absolutely no consequences. Whatever new hitting system has something contradictory (or even different or supplementary) certain people pounce as an opportunity to show how smart they think they are. It was the "second engine" for a while, then it was "tip and rip", now its "ground reaction forces". Your looking for something to validate your ideas and somehting to especially validate your dislike and jealousy for nyman/setpro/englishbey/pcr/pcrw.
As far as not seeing it in swings, you see what you want to see. I was a pro player who used setpro methods. I use them now along with the Englishbey practical application as an instructor, and have worked with professional players all the way down to tee ball kids, as well as college softball players. The results speak for themselves.Take them time to understand the method and it will yield great results. Just dont listen to someone with an agenda.
Knighs this has been discussed and resolved on these boards years ago.
Seach for yeager and push on this forum and see how many posts you get..You can start with this one..BTW are you saying that SB P don't push???
From:http://www.baseball-fever.com/showth...sh#post1042090
The issue is hardly "resolved". Some on this board believe this, and others do not. The "evidence" brought forth in support of these arguments is not very convincing to say the least.
-JJA
Lady_Knights
12-18-2007, 12:13 AM
Of course the "shift" takes place by a "push".
How else do you figure 300 pounds of pressure can be measured at the back foot of a 180 pound batter?
<<
Dr. Yeager, Dr. Adair and the source of Rotation
For those of you with Dr.Yeager’s DVDs and Dr. Adair’s book, you can see that they see the driving force behind rotation the same way.
From The Physics of Baseball by Dr. Robert K. Adair, Professor of Physics, Yale University:
Pages 64-67
When the ball approaches the plate, the batter generally shifts his weight backward an inch or two. This motion is halted-and reversed by a LARGE PUSH from the REAR FOOT as the batter moves his body toward the pitcher, usually in the course of a short step.
During this “stepping into the pitch” the strong 180-pound batter PUSHES off his rear foot with a force of 300 pounds or more and over a period of about 0.2 seconds reaches a velocity of about 6mph.
When his front foot is securely planted, the batter begins to rotate his body around that foot, which is held rigidly and used as a pivot. …thus the FORWARD MOMENTUM is turned to rotation by the REACTION of the stiff front leg. Also, significant rotational energy is generated by the muscles of the torso acting through torque from the FEET.
The WEIGHT SHIFT during this time is equivalent to a motion of a body toward the pitcher with a velocity of about 6mph corresponding to a kinetic energy of perhaps 0.6 horsepower-seconds for a 180-pound batter. This energy is stored (transferred) in the motion (rotation) of the body
>>
What amazes me, is how some of you are quick to reference what someone has wrote down in a book or you have seen on a DVD, and are actually unable to think for yourselves. I own no hitting books, or videos, and I'm still able to carry on a hitting conversation with several people, that the only thing they know about hitting is what someone else has told them. Take away your references, and you would be lost.
When you hear that the world is flat, you heard it from me first.:dance
Breeves85
12-18-2007, 12:17 AM
Boardmember,
I have some questions about the push. I haven't see the dvds so this is why I ask.
I believe there is a push because in order to shift weight in the swing, explode off the line or jump to get that rebound, you have to push against the ground. Is the push(for the swing) more subtle and activated by unconscious thought rather than deliberately pushing as hard as you can against the ground? Is the block with a soft knee or has the leg been straightened with a little flex in the knee? I know I feel a push from the back when I bend my leg and put my weight on the ball of my foot and shift forward. Is this what the push feels like?
Thanks
FiveFrameSwing
12-18-2007, 12:19 AM
The whole anti nyman/englishbey/pcr sentiment and comments like what you just wrote are agenda driven.
What are you talking about?
Just today our message board moderator concluded a post with "PCR!".
If anything, folks around here are walking on egg shells trying not to upset the PCR crowd while at the same time wanting to understand the details of a real MLB swing.
JK-CA:
Whatever new hitting system has something contradictory (or even different or supplementary) certain people pounce as an opportunity to show how smart they think they are. It was the "second engine" for a while, then it was "tip and rip", now its "ground reaction forces".
Dr. Yeager is hardly "new"..
Ground reaction forces have been measured for many many years and Dr.Yeager"s Videos were out there way before set pro or Steve E produced anything.. I have a VHS from Dr.Yeager in 1999...
What go you so offened....I said nothing against pcr--only that Yeager's DVDs contain NOTHING that resembles pcr...Thats all....Why does that bother you.??.Its like saying if you want vanilla don't order chocolate....Please explain what offended you...
as a matter of fact JayC first said:"This (yeager) doesn't go along with the PCR guys." I responed [/QUOTE]If continuity with PCR is what you were looking for, you will be MOST DISAPPOINTED...[/QUOTE] in other words "no duh"..
If you like pcr go ahead--I'm just putting a warning out there--if you want pcr--you don't want Yeager..
Lady_Knights
12-18-2007, 12:24 AM
Whos in the PCR crowd? They sound like bad news, I'll try to stay away from them. Thanks for the heads up.
The one nice thing about discussions like this, is you get to see who's in which Bullpen. Mine looks like the Reds....not to much help.
FiveFrameSwing
12-18-2007, 12:27 AM
What amazes me, is how some of you are quick to reference what someone has wrote down in a book or you have seen on a DVD, and are actually unable to think for yourselves. I own no hitting books, or videos, and I'm still able to carry on a hitting conversation with several people, that the only thing they know about hitting is what someone else has told them. Take away your references, and you would be lost.
When you hear that the world is flat, you heard it from me first.:dance
I see no reason to reinvent the wheel.
This sport has thrived for over a hundred years. There are commonalities that have existed in the best that have played this sport.
If scientists like Chris Yeager have an excellent description for how MLB hitters perform then I see no reason not to learn from him. He has done the research and backed it up with verifiable evidence. I greatly appreciate individuals like Chris Yeager and make no excuses as to my determination to learn from them. In fact, it would be silly for me not to learn from him. I would instead suggest that as a coach that you are doing your players a disservice by not taking advantage of such information.
Whos in the PCR crowd? They sound like bad news, I'll try to stay away from them. Thanks for the heads up.
Making decisions on what you hear not what you have experienced isn't that wise. You seem like a person that makes your own decision.
EL,
Lady_Knights
12-18-2007, 12:30 AM
I see no reason to reinvent the wheel.
This sport has thrived for over a hundred years. There are commonalities that have existed in the best that have played this sport.
If scientists like Chris Yeager have an excellent description for how MLB hitters perform then I see no reason not to learn from him. He has done the research and backed it up with verifiable evidence. I greatly appreciate individuals like Chris Yeager and make no excuses as to my determination to learn from them. In fact, it would be silly for me not to learn from him. I would instead suggest that as a coach that you are doing your players a disservice by not taking advantage of such information.
I learn from them all, but I don't reference them to prove a point.
FiveFrameSwing
12-18-2007, 12:32 AM
Whos in the PCR crowd? They sound like bad news, I'll try to stay away from them. Thanks for the heads up.
Now you're coming across as a trouble maker.
Almost funny, except you were too obvious.
From the sound of some of your comments you've been staying away from Yeager, and my guess is that he's glad you aren't making the comments you are making after viewing his material.
FiveFrameSwing
12-18-2007, 12:34 AM
I learn from them all, but I don't reference them to prove a point.
You do realize that a few posts earlier that you wrote "I own no hitting books, or videos".
I understand that you "learn from them all", but it might help if you owned their material and studied it.
FiveFrameSwing
12-18-2007, 12:42 AM
Lady_Knights
I’m going to follow BoardMembers lead and say that as a fellow coach I will respect your decision to have a different opinion.
I sincerely wish your kids the best of success.
BoardMember
12-18-2007, 12:50 AM
Boardmember,
I have some questions about the push. I haven't see the dvds so this is why I ask.
I believe there is a push because in order to shift weight in the swing, explode off the line or jump to get that rebound, you have to push against the ground.
I agree with this........
Is the push(for the swing) more subtle and activated by unconscious thought rather than deliberately pushing as hard as you can against the ground?
In terms of subtleness, yes, is more subtle then sprinting from the blocks or jumping for a rebound IMO. The push is a sideways movement which is geared toward creating momentum into rotation. Consider it the body's running start into rotation.
Is the block with a soft knee or has the leg been straightened with a little flex in the knee?
Blocking begins with heal plant of the front foot. The knee is flexed to absorb the momentum of the forward movement. As the forward momentum is blocked, the lead knee begins to straighten (extend) to stablize the body and assist in completing rotation.
I know I feel a push from the back when I bend my leg and put my weight on the ball of my foot and shift forward. Is this what the push feels like?
Thanks
Yes! :highfive:
Lady_Knights
12-18-2007, 12:54 AM
Lady_Knights
I’m going to follow BoardMembers lead and say that as a fellow coach I will respect your decision to have a different opinion.
I sincerely wish your kids the best of success.
Fiveframe,
I can look at the swings of some of the best hitter's in baseball and softball, and all I need to do is take what I see to my students, and try to replicate it. I don't need to know why something is, what it is, as long as it can be reproduced. All those books and videos don't mean anything, if the finished product looks like ****.
I have found out there are people on here that are trying to learn, and people on here for only one reason, there own personal agendas, and pushing the beliefs of someone else. I and others will keep learning, and teaching, the rest of you keep following...
You all have wore me down tonight, but its been fun....Goodnight!!:yawn:
FiveFrameSwing
12-18-2007, 01:02 AM
I and others will keep learning, and teaching, the rest of you keep following...
Just out of curiosity, what is it that you believe that you taught here tonight?
Go Cardinals
12-18-2007, 01:46 AM
A question to everyone in this debate... could this be a case of semantics?
Also, lady nights what I think they are trying to say about the whole "buying material" thing is that you can't diss a system untill you fully understand it. Even if you watch the dvd you need to understand it more. For example, take advantage of the community or something. If the guy has a forum, be active there. But really you can't say anything about yeager and especially englishbey (and other pcr guys) untill you own and understand their material. For example, I could not dis PCR, because I have never read or watched any of Steve's material. I have herd biased opinions (both ways) about his material, but that doesn't allow me to critique it.
I know I am not the one to be talking, but I've made this same mistake before. Trust me, if you would of watched Yeager's dvd then disagreed with it... then they would give you more credibility.
This is just coming from too many times where I've made this mistake, but bigger.
Lady Knights, Shayne
Can you please desribe who you have worked with on the swing? Is there a hitting instructor that you like? If so who?
EL,
Jake Patterson
12-18-2007, 09:14 AM
Whos in the PCR crowd? They sound like bad news, I'll try to stay away from them. Thanks for the heads up.
FACT versus Faith get a scientist to argue with a religious zealot... Won't work.
Form your own opinions by studying the work. If you have not seen Paul or Steve's work or Yeager's, Mankin, and others for that matter it would be foolish to say this is best or that is best. Forming these camps based on belief and not what actually happens at the level in which you coach is foolish.
Lady_Knights
12-18-2007, 10:27 AM
Whos in the PCR crowd? They sound like bad news, I'll try to stay away from them. Thanks for the heads up.
The one nice thing about discussions like this, is you get to see who's in which Bullpen. Mine looks like the Reds....not to much help.
This was a joke, not a stab at the PCR crowd, and I apologize if I offended anyone.
To answer a few other questions...
I can't say that I follow any "1" hitting philosophy, and will not allow myself to be trapped. If I feel I received some valuable info from someone, I will give them their props.
Never said I disagree with Yeagers teachings, I just stated that I don't feel there is a push with the back foot, during the stride, to the degree in which he claims.
Why spend money on Epstein, Yeager, Englishbey, sorry to anyone else I forgot to "name drop", when so many of you are so eager to recite the the info for free.
LClifton
12-18-2007, 10:35 AM
Never said I disagree with Yeagers teachings, I just stated that I don't feel there is a push with the back foot, during the stride, to the degree in which he claims.
How much of a push does he claim, in your opinion.?
Encinitas
12-18-2007, 10:50 AM
The whole anti nyman/englishbey/pcr sentiment and comments like what you just wrote are agenda driven. You write this stuff with absolutely no consequences. Whatever new hitting system has something contradictory (or even different or supplementary) certain people pounce as an opportunity to show how smart they think they are. It was the "second engine" for a while, then it was "tip and rip", now its "ground reaction forces". Your looking for something to validate your ideas and somehting to especially validate your dislike and jealousy for nyman/setpro/englishbey/pcr/pcrw.
I know you wanted to get some things off your chest, but lumping a Yeager guy as one of the hittingillustrated guys? Mbs has always been a consistent Yeager backer on this site. The most vocal Yeager folks on this board are from all I can tell, not necessarily Tip and Rip or Second Engine guys, so no need to lump everyone together. While it's true that you can reconcile Tip and Rip with Yeager there are almost no discussions over there about Yeager while on this site Yeager pops up almost daily. If these folks were hanging out at HI you'd think we'd see more Yeager discussion over there.
So please feel free to diss Yeager, or MBS or 5-Frame-Swing based on Yeager's methods and don't assume it's "agenda driven". More likely they just want to steer people to good information.
Lady_Knights
12-18-2007, 10:53 AM
How much of a push does he claim, in your opinion.?
To answer your question....To Much, but my opinion doesn't really matter, here is what he states....
When the ball approaches the plate, the batter generally shifts his weight backward an inch or two. This motion is halted-and reversed by a LARGE PUSH from the REAR FOOT as the batter moves his body toward the pitcher, usually in the course of a short step.
During this “stepping into the pitch” the strong 180-pound batter PUSHES off his rear foot with a force of 300 pounds or more and over a period of about 0.2 seconds reaches a velocity of about 6mph.
When his front foot is securely planted, the batter begins to rotate his body around that foot, which is held rigidly and used as a pivot. …thus the FORWARD MOMENTUM is turned to rotation by the REACTION of the stiff front leg. Also, significant rotational energy is generated by the muscles of the torso acting through torque from the FEET.
The WEIGHT SHIFT during this time is equivalent to a motion of a body toward the pitcher with a velocity of about 6mph corresponding to a kinetic energy of perhaps 0.6 horsepower-seconds for a 180-pound batter. This energy is stored (transferred) in the motion (rotation) of the body