How can you be a fan?

[MaraMoose]

How can anyone be a fan of this team when a .300 AVG, 30+ HR season or a 15 Win season leads to an automatic dissmissal from the team such like in 1997 or 2004. I used to live in West Palm Beach and I became a huge liker of the Marlins because I worked at Roger Dean Stadium as an Adminstrative Assistant along with running some promotions in the office and I was there the year Dontrelle Willis, "Miggi", and the Hammer (Josh Willingham) played in Jupiter and I remember thinking high hopes for this team and now every time they field a good team, by Marlins principal, they are gone the next year. I guess if I was still living in Palm Beach County, the only time I would be at Dolphins Stadium would be once every six years when the Yankees come to Miami Gardens. I apologize to the few Marlins fans out there but if the Yankees ever pulled this unecessary firesale every five to six years, Steinbrenner would have to request Secret Service protection.

[Edo]

I feel bad for Marlin's fans, too.

It's almost as if the Marlins were some kind of AAAA team. A place where promising players can go to get experience against real Major League teams up before being drafted, I mean traded, to the Majors.

Ed

[Silver Blaze]

Without access to the books, we can't tell if they are making a profit and what kind of profit, but you would think that they are. This is where baseball needs to step in, but baseball won't step in and interfere. They really should have vetoed the trade as not being in the best interest of the game, but that was not going to happen either.

At the moment it seems like a vicious cycle with the Marlins. They need more fans to get a new stadium, but will only get those fans WITH a new stadium...and by keeping their top talent round for a while longer than this.

[Eddiey]

Without access to the books, we can't tell if they are making a profit and what kind of profit, but you would think that they are. This is where baseball needs to step in, but baseball won't step in and interfere. They really should have vetoed the trade as not being in the best interest of the game, but that was not going to happen either.

At the moment it seems like a vicious cycle with the Marlins. They need more fans to get a new stadium, but will only get those fans WITH a new stadium...and by keeping their top talent round for a while longer than this.

Miami is not a good sports town. When the Miami Hurricanes were a college
football power they played before meager crowds at the Orange Bowl. In 2003
when the Marlins won the World Series they drew 1.3 million fans. The league
average was 2.3 million. In 2004 the average bumped up to 1.7 mil with the
league average increasing to 2.5 mil. In 2005 they drew 1.8 mil and its
been downhill since then. The Miami Heat of the NBA however has drawn
good crowds since the arrival of Shaq in 2004. Now that his production
has dramatically decreased and the team is bad I suspect that support
will erode. These facts make me wonder if the Marlins fan support will
improve much over the long haul even if they get a new ballpark. The
first few years curiosity about the new ballpark should increase attendance
dramatically. But, what happens after that? I wonder.

[Silver Blaze]

Miami is not a good sports town.

This has to be taken into consideration for any other market talked about for relocation, and some existing ones. Maybe at the end of the day there are too many teams, and not enough suitable markets. That seems to be the way in hockey, which arguably expanded way too much. Does Portland really want a baseball team? They might come out in good numbers at the start, but what about when the novelty wears off, or if the team loses consistently?

According to wikipedia, Portland has more population than Miami, but I believe Miami has a larger population density outside the city limits. Jacksonville has more population than either. So does it make sense to move a team to Jacksonville? That name has never come up in talks, that I am aware of.

I know many factors go into deciding where to put a team, but that doesn't mean you can accurately predict how well the franchise will fare, or whether the stadium will be mostly filled with Yankees or Red Sox fans when those teams come to town.

[Yankeebiscuitfan]

This has to be taken into consideration for any other market talked about for relocation, and some existing ones. Maybe at the end of the day there are too many teams, and not enough suitable markets. That seems to be the way in hockey, which arguably expanded way too much. Does Portland really want a baseball team? They might come out in good numbers at the start, but what about when the novelty wears off, or if the team loses consistently?

According to wikipedia, Portland has more population than Miami, but I believe Miami has a larger population density outside the city limits. Jacksonville has more population than either. So does it make sense to move a team to Jacksonville? That name has never come up in talks, that I am aware of.

I know many factors go into deciding where to put a team, but that doesn't mean you can accurately predict how well the franchise will fare, or whether the stadium will be mostly filled with Yankees or Red Sox fans when those teams come to town.

The seating capacity of the Baseballgrounds of Jacksonville can be easily extended to MLB conditions. The capacity right now is around 10,000, which is very much for a AA team.

[Silver Blaze]

The seating capacity of the Baseballgrounds of Jacksonville can be easily extended to MLB conditions. The capacity right now is around 10,000, which is very much for a AA team.

But is there enough interest in Jacksonville to move a team there? Like I said, I never heard the name come up in any serious relocation talks.

[TonyStarks]

Could the problem with Miami and it's baseball fans be that alot of the people in South Miami are transplanted North East (New York/New Jersey) folks who are Yankees/Mets fans. And they are not easily going to turn into Marlins fans.

[Edo]

Could the problem with Miami and it's baseball fans be that alot of the people in South Miami are transplanted North East (New York/New Jersey) folks who are Yankees/Mets fans. And they are not easily going to turn into Marlins fans.



I haven't watched many Mariner games, but I do remember hearing the commentators say things like, " There are a lot of Yankee fans in the stadium today." during the game.

Ed

[645]

If you where a Marlins fan how can you not be a fan.

They understand they are a small market team and they understand how to win within the market they have to play in. They understand they are not going to be aford Cabrera or Willis once they go Free Againt and they understand it is the right to make that trade. if you just look at what they got out of it.

Andrew Miller, He is one of the most dominant pitchers in the minors and is ready for the Majors. He is a future 15 Win pitcher and sence he will be making the Marlins this year. It's not out of the question that he could be close this year.

Cameron Maybin, He is One of the elite prospects in the game with limitless potential to be one of the game's true Superstars for years to come and he could be just as good if not better the Cabrera in a year or two and they got 4 more very good players and the bonus is they will have them all for the next 4 to 5 Years and that are not going to have to pay them anywhere close to what Cabrera and Willis would get.

So the bottom line is the Marlins do what all small market teams should try to be. By loading up on Star prospects and right before they have to pay the players they trade them for Major League ready Star prospects to ride a few more years and to keep the leval of play as high as a Small market team possably can do. and the Marlins do that better then anyone else and they have win more world series championship for it then you would think was possable. So frankly the City of Miami is lucky to have this team.

[Silver Blaze]

So the bottom line is the Marlins do what all small market teams should try to be. By loading up on Star prospects and right before they have to pay the players they trade them for Major League ready Star prospects to ride a few more years and to keep the leval of play as high as a Small market team possably can do. and the Marlins do that better then anyone else and they have win more world series championship for it then you would think was possable. So frankly the City of Miami is lucky to have this team.


I think you are glossing over several harsh realities. It's true that the smaller budget teams must rely more on drafting prospects, and so this kind of deal does make sense for them in some respects. However, Cabrera is still a ways off being a Free Agent, and they could arguably have given him a deal either to that period, or into the first year or so, to maximize their chances of winning. Would Cabrera accept such a deal; either way, he was under their control for two more seasons.

Now, if your point is being based on the Marlins not doing well in attendence, that certainly is a factor that can't be dismissed, but we know they get revenue sharing money, etc. It is hard to believe that they could not afford a payroll of at least $40mil, and that is extremely conservative. Whatever problems they have, don't allow them to be off the hook for being a MLB with a payroll under $20mil. That is a disgrace, and the fans deserve better incentives to come to games than the team being funded on the cheap and the best player being sent out of town sooner than need be. Got to question the commitment to winning big time.

[SamtheBravesFan]

I'm not one to complain about this idea, but the way the Marlins run their business makes sense: they stay talented despite paying as little as possible and sometimes it makes for a good run.

But I do believe that it is alienating the fan base to not keep at least one star player around. They're essentially a AAAA club for other teams; they're always ready to trade to the highest bidder. And they'll just do it again and again and again.

[Knick9]

I'm not one to complain about this idea, but the way the Marlins run their business makes sense: they stay talented despite paying as little as possible and sometimes it makes for a good run.

But I do believe that it is alienating the fan base to not keep at least one star player around. They're essentially a AAAA club for other teams; they're always ready to trade to the highest bidder. And they'll just do it again and again and again.

Which, to me, is exactly why this is not the way to run a franchise...

[645]

I think you are glossing over several harsh realities. It's true that the smaller budget teams must rely more on drafting prospects, and so this kind of deal does make sense for them in some respects. However, Cabrera is still a ways off being a Free Agent, and they could arguably have given him a deal either to that period, or into the first year or so, to maximize their chances of winning. Would Cabrera accept such a deal; either way, he was under their control for two more seasons.

Now, if your point is being based on the Marlins not doing well in attendence, that certainly is a factor that can't be dismissed, but we know they get revenue sharing money, etc. It is hard to believe that they could not afford a payroll of at least $40mil, and that is extremely conservative. Whatever problems they have, don't allow them to be off the hook for being a MLB with a payroll under $20mil. That is a disgrace, and the fans deserve better incentives to come to games than the team being funded on the cheap and the best player being sent out of town sooner than need be. Got to question the commitment to winning big time.

Yeah, Sure I can see how you would see that as a valid point. First 2 years is better then 1 year and the Tigers would look at it the same way and the Tigers getting to have an extra year at fair payroll price lets the Marlins to get a better deal for him then there would be this time next year and sence the Marlins probly feel they are more then 1 year year from winning the world series it only makes sence to take advantage of that.

For the question of the payroll under $20mil. It is so easy to knock a team for that saying they are cheap and not commitmented to winning. It's so easy for fans to overlook that is the smartest thing a Small Market team can do. You see Every dollar that they can aford to spend that they don't spend when they are building up the team is a Dollar they can spend over and above what they can aford to spend once they have a team that can have a chance at winning the world series.

So that is the game the Small market teams play. They spend the money when they have a chance of winning and they cut payroll when they don't to have it later on to spend.

[Silver Blaze]

For the question of the payroll under $20mil. It is so easy to knock a team for that saying they are cheap and not commitmented to winning. It's so easy for fans to overlook that is the smartest thing a Small Market team can do. You see Every dollar that they can aford to spend that they don't spend when they are building up the team is a Dollar they can spend over and above what they can aford to spend once they have a team that can have a chance at winning the world series.

So that is the game the Small market teams play. They spend the money when they have a chance of winning and they cut payroll when they don't to have it later on to spend.


Most commentators that I have seen have said that you realistically need at least $50mil - and call it $60mil - to compete in today's game. The average wage is $3mil, so to afford a roster full of just average players would be $75mil.

Of course, you can get younger guys who are just starting out and not due large money, but you can only draft so many that you hit the jackpot with in their first 3 years. The Marlins are going virtually with an entire roster of such guys now. Sorry, that is not major league, and it's not particularly smart. It is minor league baseball at major league prices. Look at Minnesota, whose owner was a renowned spendthrift, and they were still spending $50mil and paid to keep Hunter around for as long as they could.

I do think Florida's case is mitigated VERY slightly by lousy attendence, but that is chicken and egg. We can't know if a new stadium will be the difference maker - it's a huge gamble - but we do know the way the ownership has historically operated has tended to drive fans away, and clearly will continue to do so.

[645]

Of course, you can get younger guys who are just starting out and not due large money, but you can only draft so many that you hit the jackpot with in their first 3 years. The Marlins are going virtually with an entire roster of such guys now. Sorry, that is not major league, and it's not particularly smart. It is minor league baseball at major league prices. Look at Minnesota, whose owner was a renowned spendthrift, and they were still spending $50mil and paid to keep Hunter around for as long as they could.


Yeah, True there are so many you can draft but you can Trade for a ton of them if you have something to give and are the Marlins fans goinjg to mind that trade when Andrew Miller and Cameron Maybin prove to be 2 of the favorites for the Rookie of the year.

You don't always need a $50 million payroll to win. All you need is a roster worth atless that. The Marlins as a team is only 14 Years old and in that time they have win the World Series twice. Hey your Mets can't even say that.

You should give the Marlins some credit. They do the right thing at the right time. They spend there money when it can have the most impack and they save it when it don't. Yeah, They could spend that extra $30 million next year to have that $50mill payroll but that might get them maybe 3rd Place in that davision if they are lucky. you think that would smart of them to buy 3rd place when they can wait tell they are in a place where they can buy something better then that.

[Silver Blaze]

Yeah, True there are so many you can draft but you can Trade for a ton of them if you have something to give and are the Marlins fans goinjg to mind that trade when Andrew Miller and Cameron Maybin prove to be 2 of the favorites for the Rookie of the year.

You don't always need a $50 million payroll to win. All you need is a roster worth atless that. The Marlins as a team is only 14 Years old and in that time they have win the World Series twice. Hey your Mets can't even say that.

You should give the Marlins some credit. They do the right thing at the right time. They spend there money when it can have the most impack and they save it when it don't. Yeah, They could spend that extra $30 million next year to have that $50mill payroll but that might get them maybe 3rd Place in that davision if they are lucky. you think that would smart of them to buy 3rd place when they can wait tell they are in a place where they can buy something better then that.

So what you are saying is it's OK for the Marlins to basically have a cyclical firesale and try to win one World Series every six years than try to make the playoffs every year? That they can continue to take Major League ticket and merchandise money from fans, but put a basic AAA team out in years they know they won't be able to compete? I respectfully - and strongly - disagree. I think I see what you are saying, but you are condoning them going woefully under what they can spend, just for the sake of "saving" money - and then you trust them to put it back into the team. Well, it's four-going-on-five years since the Marlins won a WS. Doesn't that mean, by your theory, that they are due to contend again? Yet they just traded away the two biggest pieces that they had.....Also, you are very trusting to think Loria will sanction raising the spending to include all the money they have saved in these "down" years. There is nothing to stop this money going in his pocket and staying there. MLB does have a rule that revenue sharing cash has to go to improve the team, but there's numerous ways to fudge that - just ask Pittsburgh.

[645]

That they can continue to take Major League ticket and merchandise money from fans, but put a basic AAA team out in years they know they won't be able to compete?

Really, There is not one AAA team in the minors that if you told them they had to play Major League teams that wouldn't have a problem trying win atless 60 games if not 50 games. To call them a AAA team is far fitched. There 71 win season last year is the first time they fail to win atless 76 games in the last 8 season by Major League standards that is more then what one would call compiveative.

if we where talking about the Kansas City Royals who had 69 wins, 62 wins, 56 wins and 58 wins in last 4 years and a 62 win and 65 wins season to sandwich a lucky 83 win season if you want to call that a AAA team I would agree with you for that maybe more then Fair but with the Marlins it isn't for they have yet to prove that it is by having a few truely alfull seasons.

And simply becouse they win 71 Games last year they clearly in a rebuilding mode and clearly they are more then 1 year away and that trade makes sence. Now if they win 78 or 79 games last year then that might of bean a diferent case and they would stayed with him for another year.

But mather what they got good players out of the Trade and they have alot of other real good young players and they have a good chance of repeting that 71 win season if not more and if on the off chance they don't then I'm sure they will not stay there long for there team is too good to not learn from it.

[Marliner435]

Does anyone go to Miami Heat games now either?

[NJMetfan4life]

Are the Marlins the new Royals? The ML farm system?

[TonyStarks]

Are the Marlins the new Royals? The ML farm system?

The Royals...yuck!


More like the new Expos. The Marlins have a track record of producing and developing young talent. So as bleak as it looks, look for them to get back in the mix within 2-3 years.

[Yankees2k6]

Miami is not a good sports town. When the Miami Hurricanes were a college
football power they played before meager crowds at the Orange Bowl. In 2003
when the Marlins won the World Series they drew 1.3 million fans. The league
average was 2.3 million. In 2004 the average bumped up to 1.7 mil with the
league average increasing to 2.5 mil. In 2005 they drew 1.8 mil and its
been downhill since then. The Miami Heat of the NBA however has drawn
good crowds since the arrival of Shaq in 2004. Now that his production
has dramatically decreased and the team is bad I suspect that support
will erode. These facts make me wonder if the Marlins fan support will
improve much over the long haul even if they get a new ballpark. The
first few years curiosity about the new ballpark should increase attendance
dramatically. But, what happens after that? I wonder.

And Shaq got traded to the Phoenix Suns, so I expect the crowd numbers to drop.

[Marliner435]

Ouch. Maybe you can continue your ray of sunshine and kick a dog on the way home from posting this!

[Silver Blaze]

Miami is not a good sports town. When the Miami Hurricanes were a college
football power they played before meager crowds at the Orange Bowl. In 2003
when the Marlins won the World Series they drew 1.3 million fans. The league
average was 2.3 million. In 2004 the average bumped up to 1.7 mil with the
league average increasing to 2.5 mil. In 2005 they drew 1.8 mil and its
been downhill since then. The Miami Heat of the NBA however has drawn
good crowds since the arrival of Shaq in 2004. Now that his production
has dramatically decreased and the team is bad I suspect that support
will erode. These facts make me wonder if the Marlins fan support will
improve much over the long haul even if they get a new ballpark. The
first few years curiosity about the new ballpark should increase attendance
dramatically. But, what happens after that? I wonder.

I suppose most people only have so much disposable income throughout the year, but I'm not seeing a direct correlation between basketball and baseball because they happen at different times of the year. Surely going to a few NBA games doesn't mean you haven't got an odd $20 here or there for a couple of baseball games in the summer. I would expect more of an either/or for basketball and football as both happen at the same time, although the way the football team has been going, I could understand if the crowds tailed off. It's still a widely accepted rule that football is a more popular game than basketball.

[timbucs2]

I'm not sure which is better... to win two World Series and then go to crap for every season in between and after or to consistently be in contention with the hope to win the series almost any year. I love the fact that the fish won it against the Yanks in '03 but ever since then there have only been minor flashes of promise while tons of dissapointment (as shown by us becoming the farm team for the rest of the league). Maybe next decade :(

[timbucs2]

Does anyone go to Miami Heat games now either?

heck, id go just to watch D-Wade. But i dont live in florida anymore. Bummer.

[Extra Innings]

With the stockpile of talent the Marlins have accumulated they look tough in the near future. If I was a fan of the team I would be dissapointed for trading off the "stars", but the fact remains two World Series championships in a span of just over 10 years. I think the Marlins would have held onto Cabrera another year or two if Detroit didn't offer the Maybin/Miller package.