BBF MVP Poll 1903 NL

[TheoBallgame]

Vote for the player you think was the MVP in the NL for the 1903 season. Poll closes in four days.

If you vote "other", please post your selection in the thread.

And remember to go vote in the 1903 AL poll too.

[leecemark]

--This could be a boring decade for the NL. I see Honus winning his 3rd in a row with more to come.

[brett]

Well, boring or not, I'm committed to making the best choice I can.

an added bonus for Wagner was that '03 was the year he really developed into the best fielding SS in the game.

[The Kid]

An easy choice for me: Honus.

[JRB]

--This could be a boring decade for the NL. I see Honus winning his 3rd in a row with more to come.

Hold on, why all the steamrolling? It's actually a very debatable issue in this season.

It's between Wagner and Sheckard for best position player. and it becomes even a closer question when you also consider pitchers.

Chiristy Mathewson was 30-13. Mathewson's ERA+ was 148 with 37 complete games, and he set a new National League Strikeout record that lasted 58 years until broken by Sandy Koufax in 1961.

Iron Man Joe McGinity won 31 games and lost 20, and had an ERA+ of 138 plus 44 complete games to live up to his moniker.

Wagner's own teammate Sam Leever was 25-7 with a league leading ERA of 2.06, and league leading ERA+ of 157, with 30 complete games to his credit.

The league leader in OPS+ was Wagner's teammate Fred Clarke with an OPS+ of 164. Wagner was tied for 3rd in OPS+ at 160, however since he played more games than Clarke and played 111 games at the important shorstop position I would give him the edge.

Roger Bresnahan had an OPS+ of 161, however he played fewer games than Wagner and contrary to expectation he only played a few of those games at catcher with most of his games being played in the outfield.

Wagner's teammate centerfielder Ginger Beaumont had another wonderful year batting .341, while leading the league in games played (141) runs scored (137) and base hits (209), however Wagner has a solid edge over him in OPS+.

Brooklyn outfielder Jimmy Sheckard tied Wagner in OPS+ at 161 while playing in 10 more games than Wagner. Sheckard led the league in home runs and triples. Sheckard also led the league in stolen bases with 67 to 46 for Wagner.

Sheckard played 139 games in left field while Wagner played 111 games at shortstop and 12 in the outfield and 6 at first. Sheckard seems to have been spectacular in the field, leading the league in assists with 36 and his fielding range also led the league and was almost double the league average.

I would vote for Sheckard for postion player of the year narrowly over Wagner

I would vote for Leever for MVP over Mathewson and Sheckard with Wagner fourth.

c JRB

[brett]

Just for everyone's edification, here are the WARP I scores for those 4:

Sheckard: 13.0
Wagner: 14.2
Mathewson: 12.4
Leever 7.3

Lever had 284.3 innings and a 157 ERA+ which is excellent, but the innings are not what I want to see from an MVP pitcher in that era, unless we have an ERA+ of say 180 or so.

Mathewson pitched 366.3 but the 147 ERA+ again, while very good, well if we start giving MVPs to pitchers with 350 innings and 140 ERA+ scores, then we will have a lot of pitchers dominating.

Cy Young had a better case in the AL in '02 with 384 2/3 and a 166 ERA+ which actually gave him a higher WARP I score than Delahanty, but I felt that because of the greater reliance of pitchers on their defense in that era (25% of runs scored were unearned) that I want to see a pitcher with a WARP score about 20% higher than the best hitter, especially if the hitter can run well.

Wagner had his first excellent defensive season at SS, and I think a great fielding and running SS with a 160 OPS+ is about as good as it gets.

I personally don't want to overlook pitchers for the MVP though, and I will always check out the top guys looking primarily at ERA+ and IP. Strikeouts also mattered more then because of the likelyhood of balls in play going for errors (about 5%)

[philkid3]

I absolutely think pitchers can win the MVP, but I'm with Brett, only sometimes are they actually more valuable.

The '60s will be interesting.

[dgarza]

1. Honus Wagner
2. Jimmy Sheckard
3. Mike Donlin
4. Christy Mathewson
5. Ginger Beaumont
6. Joe McGinnity
7. Fred Clarke
8. Deacon Phillippe
9. Roger Bresnahan
10. Sam Mertes

[leecemark]

--I've got Honus 8 of the first 9 years of this project. Some are very close though. What do you think of Frank Chance's 1903 season? 154 OPS+ supplemented by a league leading 67 SB, plus very good defense at 1N in an era where that was much more important. I think he gives Sheckard a run for 2nd place.

[JRB]

--I've got Honus 8 of the first 9 years of this project. Some are very close though. What do you think of Frank Chance's 1903 season? 154 OPS+ supplemented by a league leading 67 SB, plus very good defense at 1N in an era where that was much more important. I think he gives Sheckard a run for 2nd place.

Thanks for pointing Chance's season out, as it seems excellent. Chance's OPS+ is only 6 points behind Sheckard and Wagner, and he tied Sheckard for the stolen base lead. However, Sheckard played in 14 more games and Wagner played in 5 more games. In the reference works I've looked at Sheckard's defense looks spectacular (a fielding range of 190 (with 100 the average based on putouts per inning) and a throwing score of 154 (with 100 being average based on assists per inning). I think Chance deserves to be in the discussion, though I would still choose Sheckard and Wagner over him.

I would say that all three seasons we've done so far seem fairly close with a couple or more position players bunched closely at the top each year, with the one constant being Wagner. I think they are close enough that reasonable minds could differ on at least a couple of the seasons.

c JRB

[Honus Wagner Rules]

--This could be a boring decade for the NL. I see Honus winning his 3rd in a row with more to come.

Can't we just give the NL MVP to Honus for the entire decade and move on with it? :p

[KCGHOST]

The Flying Dutchman!

[TheoBallgame]

Looks like Wagner is gonna be 3 for 3 and will be setting the standards that future multiple winners will be gunning for.

[TheoBallgame]

Wagner pulls off the three-peat!

I'll be posting the 1904 ballots later today.

[TheoBallgame]

Sorry for the delay on the 1904 ballots. I've been swamped at work and had to take a short break. I'll have the new polls up soon!