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NotAboutEgo
11-29-2007, 11:13 AM
Baseball and Softball: Should Girls and Women Have to Choose? A Women’s Sports Foundation® Position Statement
Tue 31-Jul-2007

I: ARE SOFTBALL AND BASEBALL THE SAME SPORT?
POSITION: No. baseball and softball are different sports and are recognized by the world authority on sports as such.

Contrary to common belief, softball is not the female equivalent of baseball. Baseball and softball are governed by separate national sport governing bodies in the United States and internationally. In other words, the United States Olympic Committee and the world authority on sports, the International Olympic Committee, recognize baseball and softball as different sports. In addition, the rules, skills, competition fields and playing equipment are different for softball and baseball. A baseball field is significantly larger than a softball field, with 90-foot base paths compared to 60-foot paths in softball and outfield fences 100-200 feet longer than softball fields. Baseball has a grass infield with a raised pitcher’s mound 60 feet from the batter, while softball uses a flat dirt infield with a pitcher’s plate 40-46 feet from the batter. The pitcher in baseball is required to throw overhand, while the softball pitcher is required to throw underhand, two very different skills. A baseball is considerably smaller and denser than a softball. A baseball game is nine innings, while a softball game is seven innings.

In addition, courts which have adjudicated this issue have repeatedly held that softball and baseball are different sports.1

II: DOES TITLE IX, THE FEDERAL LAW PROHIBITING SEX DISCRIMINATION IN EDUCATIONAL PROGRAMS AND ACTIVITIES OFFERED BY INSTITUTIONS RECEIVING FEDERAL FUNDS, REQUIRE THAT WOMEN BE PERMITTED TO PLAY BASEBALL?

POSITION: Yes. In non-contact sports, Title IX requires that members of the underrepresented gender be permitted to play on teams provided for the overrepresented gender or that separate teams in that sport be created for underrepresented gender.

In other words, if a school has a men’s baseball team and women are underrepresented in the overall athletic program, women must be permitted to try out for the men’s baseball team or the school must create a separate baseball team for women. A school does not have to allow a woman to try out under Title IX for the men’s baseball team if the percentage of female athletes in the overall athletic program is proportional to percentage of females in the general student body (meaning if women comprise 49% of the student body, they also comprise 49% of the athletes.) because in that case, women would not be underrepresented. Also, the exclusion of females from participation in baseball when it is solely offered to males has been held to violate the Equal Protection Clause of the 14th Amendment of the United States Constitution.2

III: CAN WOMEN COMPETE WITH AND AGAINST MEN IN BASEBALL?

POSITION: Yes, there are many women who have the skills and physical abilities to compete on men’s teams in baseball.

Baseball is not an “absolute strength” sport. Baseball is a game involving skills that are a combination of timing, coordination, strength, knowledge of the game, strategies, control and savvy, to say nothing of the importance of competitiveness and desire. Even though strength may be a factor in pitching and hitting, timing and coordination can produce comparable throwing and bat speed. Bat speed and bat control are more important than absolute strength. There are plenty of examples in baseball of the smaller but skilled player who overcomes disadvantages of foot speed, size or strength to be an exceptional player.

Even when strength is a consideration, the relative strength and size of men and women is not a prohibitive factor. Physiological differences within the sexes are greater than the differences between the sexes. Thus, especially in sport leagues below the most elite level of sports participation, some individual girls will be able to compete with and against boys, despite the physiological advantages of most boys.

IV. SHOULD GIRLS AND WOMEN BE ENCOURAGED TO PLAY IN “NON-TRADITIONAL” SPORTS FOR WOMEN?

POSITION: Women are no longer limited by societal perceptions of “appropriate” activities for females. Women should be permitted and encouraged to participate in any sport.

Stereotypical views of “appropriate” sports for women have limited participation opportunities for girls and women throughout history. Women were not permitted to run distances greater than 400 meters in the Olympic Games until the 1950s and were not permitted to run the Olympic marathon until 1984 because of stereotypical perceptions of women’s abilities to run distances. Expectations of “feminine” behavior precluded many women from lifting weights, playing football or competing as wrestlers. Yet, there are more than 6,000 women competing in high school football and wrestling today, and 1,300-plus women play high school baseball. Pole vaulting and weight lifting have become popular women’s sports, women’s ice hockey has been an Olympic sport since 1998, and there are now women’s professional football leagues and a women’s national baseball team.

V: IF WOMEN PARTICIPATE IN BASEBALL, SHOULD MEN BE PERMITTED TO PARTICIPATE IN SOFTBALL?

POSITION: Men should be allowed to play on a softball teams when there is no team for men offered, men are underrepresented with regard to total athletic opportunities and the strength and skill levels of the men are comparable.

Since the opportunities for men have not been historically limited and men are typically overrepresented in athletic departments, men do not have the same rights to compete on women’s teams as women do on men’s teams. While some courts in Equal Rights Amendment states have found that such a position violates the individual rights of men,3 other courts in Equal Rights Amendment states4 and federal courts supporting 14th Amendment protections have found that protecting the participation rights of women as a previously discriminated against "class" outweigh the rights of an "individual" man to play on a women’s team.5 When members of the overrepresented gender (usually males), are permitted to play on teams for the underrepresented gender (usually women), they further diminish opportunities for the underrepresented gender.

ACKNOWLEDGEMENTS
The Women’s Sports Foundation thanks John Kovach, Chairperson, United States Girls Baseball Association; Terri Lakowski, Women's Sports Foundation Public Policy Officer; Dr. Donna Lopiano, Women’s Sports Foundation Chief Executive Officer; and Dr. Marj Snyder, Women’s Sports Foundation Chief Programs and Planning Officer, for their assistance in creating this document.

____________________________

ENDNOTES

1 Israel v. West Virginia Secondary Schools Activities Commission, 388 S.E.2d 480 (W.Va. 1989) (holding that softball and baseball are different sports; therefore, preventing a girl from playing on the boys’ team violated the 14th Amendment Equal Protection Clause and the girl must be allowed to try out for the baseball team.)

2 Id.

3 Attorney General v. Massachusetts Interscholastic Athletic Association, Inc., 393 N. E. 2d 284 (Mass. 1979) (rejecting an interscholastic league policy forbidding males to participate in females’ sports teams, but permitting females to participate in males’ teams. The court found that if females were permitted to participate in male sports teams for which there was no corresponding female team, then males must also be permitted to participate in female teams for which there is no corresponding male team.) Comment per Farina, Elizabeth. (2005) Unpublished manuscript prepared for Professor Deborah Brake, University of Pittsburgh, dated August 11, 2005.

4 B.C. v. Board of Education, Cumberland Regional School District, 531 A. 2d 1059 (N.J. Super. 1987) (holding that preserving women’s athletic opportunities was an important governmental objective and that prohibiting males from participating in female’s teams, like field hockey, was substantially related to that objective.) Petrie v. Illinois High School Association, 394 N. E. 2d 855 (Ill. App. Ct. 1979) (upholding a policy restricting membership on the school’s only volleyball team to females.) Comment per Farina, Elizabeth. (2005) Unpublished manuscript prepared for Professor Deborah Brake, University of Pittsburgh, dated August 11, 2005.

5 Clark v. Arizona Interscholastic Association, 695 F. 2d 1126 (Ariz. 1982) (holding that excluding males from participating on the female volleyball team did not violate Equal Protection rights of the male students because it was a substantially related method of achieving the important objectives of promoting sport opportunities for females and redressing past discrimination.) Mularadelis v. Haldane Central School Board, 74 A.D. 2d 248 (N.Y. App. Div. 1980) (upholding the exclusion of male from female sports team) Comment per Farina, Elizabeth. (2005) Unpublished manuscript prepared for Professor Deborah Brake, University of Pittsburgh, dated August 11, 2005.

Kathy Kusner became the first woman granted a jockey license on October 22, 1968.

Copyright Women's Sports Foundation ©2007-2001
All Rights Reserved


http://www.womenssportsfoundation.org/cgi-bin/iowa/issues/disc/article.html?record=1212

shotten1947
12-01-2007, 06:49 AM
Interesting but confusing. Would you like to see woman playing on mens teams or separate teams for women, like in basketball?

captlid
12-01-2007, 05:35 PM
pitchers in baseball are not "required" to pitch overhand. :)

I also dont believe in things such as affirmative action or making legislation to redress past greivances. So if a guy wants to play a sport at a federally funded educational institution that is only available to women he should be able to do so.

NotAboutEgo
12-03-2007, 07:09 AM
Interesting but confusing. Would you like to see woman playing on mens teams or separate teams for women, like in basketball?

The goal is for everyone who wishes to participate in sports to have the opportunity to do so without discrimination being a factor. Whether this means separate teams for each gender or coed teams, everyone who wishes to participate in a sport should have that opportunity without having to fight for it.

The problem that still exists now is that historically, women (as far as gender goes) have been the ones who've been discriminated against since the beginning of time. We're the ones who've had to fight to be able to have the sports opportunities that we want to have and should have... the same ones that males exclusively have had. So, the problem is created when one group is denied the right to play.

Since males have not had this problem, the females are always the ones fighting. The issue is about women fighting for their rights to play... not the other way around.

I could care less if teams are separated by gender or if they are coed. As long as everyone who wants to participate gets the chance to play, then there'd be no discrimination focus.

Whether a team is coed or separated by gender should be determined by the goal and purpose of that team/league. For example, in pro sports, it may make more sense to have separate teams (depending on the sport)... but if a woman is good enough to play a pro sport on a guy's team when there is no women's team/league of that same sport, then she should be allowed to. That's what the article is saying. It's talking about females having the same opportunities as males, however that happens, and how females have been denied so many opportunities historically, just because they are females. So, that's why there is still an ongoing struggle.

NotAboutEgo
12-03-2007, 07:14 AM
In the coed roller hockey leageus I play in, even if there are no coed leagues, women are allowed to and do play in those leagues... like copper, bronze, silver, gold, etc. It's pretty much the same in other sports. Little league baseball, High scool, collegiate, Olympic, and pro sports are another issue separate from rec leagues... as far as the way society views them.

NotAboutEgo
12-03-2007, 07:27 AM
pitchers in baseball are not "required" to pitch overhand. :)

I also dont believe in things such as affirmative action or making legislation to redress past greivances. So if a guy wants to play a sport at a federally funded educational institution that is only available to women he should be able to do so.

Does it state in the rules that pitchers in baseball are not required to throw overhand? I have a hard time believing an umpire or the other team would be OK with a pitcher throwing completely underhand. That's what softball is for.

As far as past grievances go, if discrimination is still happening today, and it's still affecting whether a group of people is being denied the right to play a sport, then legislation does need to happen to get rid of the discrimination. Legislation about gender discrimination isn't happening today just because of the past. If no gender discrimination existed anymore, there'd be no reason for this kind of legislation. The problem would be solved. But, discrimination against females who want to play sports is still happening on a widespread basis, especially in baseball.

As far as a guy playing on a girls' team if there's no guy's team of that same sport, I think it becomes an issue of size and strength. If there's a big disparity between the guy's size and strength over the average girls' size and strength, I don't think it would make sense for the guy to play on the girls' team if size and strength play a major role. This issue has to do with safety... not with gender discrimination. If the size and strength aren't that much of a factor, however, then the guy should be allowed to play on the girls' team.

captlid
12-03-2007, 02:33 PM
The only thing that I read in the OBR is that a pitcher must face the batter when throwing. Nothing about actual arm action.

The OBR rules pertaining to the pitcher are right here.
http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/downloads/y2007/08_the_pitcher.pdf

Thats why guys like chad bradford are still around. It gives the batter another look.

The only thing i can possibly think of that an umpire would put a complete stop to is what happens in fastpitch. Where the pitcher leaps and then on the landing finally releases the ball.

Baseball pitching rules mostly focus on balks and how to prevent giving the pitcher undue advantage.

captlid
12-03-2007, 02:35 PM
then there would be no need for legislation. I guess I can dream right?! :happy:

NotAboutEgo
12-03-2007, 03:15 PM
then there would be no need for legislation. I guess I can dream right?! :happy:

I totally agree with you on this one... but, each person has to decide for herself/himself where they stand. And, unfortunately, not everyone is ready to face their insecurities about issues such as women and girls having equal opportunities to play any sport they wish to play, and that affects whether we need legislation or not. Hopefully, one day soon we will be at a point where no one, or not enough people, in our culture will be so closed-minded as to want to deny people the opportunities and rights to play a sport based solely on gender or for any other superficial reason. Things have changed a lot over time, but there's still a lot more changing that needs to happen.

Yes, we can dream!

NotAboutEgo
12-03-2007, 03:18 PM
The only thing that I read in the OBR is that a pitcher must face the batter when throwing. Nothing about actual arm action.

The OBR rules pertaining to the pitcher are right here.
http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/downloads/y2007/08_the_pitcher.pdf

Thats why guys like chad bradford are still around. It gives the batter another look.

The only thing i can possibly think of that an umpire would put a complete stop to is what happens in fastpitch. Where the pitcher leaps and then on the landing finally releases the ball.

Baseball pitching rules mostly focus on balks and how to prevent giving the pitcher undue advantage.

Interesting. If someone could pull off throwing completely underhand in a baseball game while maintaining the proper mechanics as not to balk, it would be interesting to see the reaction to it and what would happen.

captlid
12-03-2007, 03:33 PM
Chad Bradford
http://youtube.com/watch?v=lWIyAhDGrLs

Mike Myers
http://youtube.com/watch?v=v3qCnwUsqsg

I dont see why they would commit a balk. I know its not COMPLETELY underhand but its as close as you will see in the MLB. :D

These kind of pitchers are rare because they rarely throw over 82mph using this method. And because its hard to find coaches to teach this method properly. That and they tend to have back problems.