bonds and marion jones

[brett]

I have read some about Marion Jones and now it looks like Bonds is in more trouble than I had though.

Jones plead guilty, and gave up all of her medals and winnings since 2000 and yet she has only admitted to having use "the clear", or at least "the clear" was an important part of the case.

The clear has been thought to be a designer steroid (which didn't work very well at all) and which was not illegal until 2002. It looks like the Feds don't care, they still want to prosecut those who lied during the investigation of the "technically legal designer steroids".

Bonds case is totally about lying, and not about his use. If he heard the term "the clear" from Anderson, or anyone from Balco prior to the GJ investigation, he will probably have to plead guilty to purgery.

Unfortunately, we will probably never be able to confirm (or refute) that Bonds broke any law or rule as far as taking any substance.

Of course, Jones could have been lying. She might have been taking loads of stuff.

I will point out that the suggested "signs" of Bonds use (size increases) are not evident in Jones.

[Mattingly]

Marion Jones came out and publicly said that she'd taken steroids to enhance her performance. For that, she's been stripped of her medals, and I'm hearing that her teammates in relay races will also be stripped of their medals.

Barry Bonds has made no such admission. Until he does (which I think will be very highly unlikely) or Greg Anderson testifies against him as having stated that some kind of PEDs were given to Bonds, I don't see this being similar.

I also think that with as many people involved in the baseball games we play, it would be almost impossible to nullify any of Bonds' games w/o doing the same to every pitcher who pitched against him, any runner on base who Bonds drove in, or anyone who drove him in when he'd scored. All errors he'd gotten on base with would have to be removed for the fielders.

I think it's two very different cases, though I did think of Bonds when I'd heard about Marion Jones today.

[wilkerson_rulz-06]

Read "Game of Shadows" and this will be all more clear, very good read if I may say so myself. :)

[SamtheBravesFan]

I've thought that it isn't fair to Jones's teammates to have their medals taken away, because even though they benifited from her cheating, they themselves did not cheat.

Bonds is similar there too. If you're going to penalize him, you're going to have to penalize everyone else who benifited from him, which is next to impossible.

[Lars Thorwald]

Bonds doesn't deserve to take all the heat for the steroid era. He's one of three greatest players ever along with Babe Ruth and Ted Williams. Nobody has called for Gaylord Perry's numbers to be stripped and he admitted to cheating. The Babe never faced black players or pitchers and many consider him the best player ever. Records are just recorded events. They need to be put in context.

[Elvis]

Bonds doesn't deserve to take all the heat for the steroid era. He's one of three greatest players ever along with Babe Ruth and Ted Williams. Nobody has called for Gaylord Perry's numbers to be stripped and he admitted to cheating.

I take it then that you disagree with the Olympics stripping the medals and records from athletes who took steroids. If not, why?

Oh, and by the way, I saw you kill your wife--you won't get away with it Mr. Thorwald.

[EdTarbusz]

Oh, and by the way, I saw you kill your wife--you won't get away with it Mr. Thorwald.

If it wasn't for this damn broken leg...

[brett]

Marion Jones came out and publicly said that she'd taken steroids to enhance her performance. For that, she's been stripped of her medals, and I'm hearing that her teammates in relay races will also be stripped of their medals.

Barry Bonds has made no such admission. Until he does (which I think will be very highly unlikely) or Greg Anderson testifies against him as having stated that some kind of PEDs were given to Bonds, I don't see this being similar.

I also think that with as many people involved in the baseball games we play, it would be almost impossible to nullify any of Bonds' games w/o doing the same to every pitcher who pitched against him, any runner on base who Bonds drove in, or anyone who drove him in when he'd scored. All errors he'd gotten on base with would have to be removed for the fielders.

I think it's two very different cases, though I did think of Bonds when I'd heard about Marion Jones today.


I have two main points. One is that I now have reason to believe that "the clear" was not simply THG. That is important because it makes Bonds a cheater in my view. He is responsible for what he took. There was a prevailing view in some sports medecine circles that the clear was THG which is both not very effective AND was not illegal at the time.

Second, Bonds can be found guilty of pergury if Anderson witnesses simply that he and Bonds talked about illegal steroids or similar substances. Bonds was specifically asked 3 times if Anderson ever mentioned steroids to him, and Bonds said no.

[plask_stirlac]

Bonds doesn't deserve to take all the heat for the steroid era. He's one of three greatest players ever along with Babe Ruth and Ted Williams. Nobody has called for Gaylord Perry's numbers to be stripped and he admitted to cheating. The Babe never faced black players or pitchers and many consider him the best player ever. Records are just recorded events. They need to be put in context.

Thank you! Bonds doesn't need any asterisks, people already put them there. If I tell you Tom Glavine is better than Randy Johnson because of 300 wins or not we know that's bogus. Aaron has more home runs than Ruth but he wasn't as good at hitting them, just out of more opportunities. Reggie Jackson was not a better home run hitter than Ted Williams.

Context is the key, if two players have 521 HR are they just as good as each other? We'll look at other stats, etc.

The ship has sailed on Bonds getting unbiased recognition 99% of the time, even 50 years from now. Congratulations. Pretty much everyone will associate Ty Cobb with racism now, though that was the norm and he gets more than he deserves. Ruth is the overweight lout, though he wasn't really big for much of his career, showed speed, and it was the Roaring 20s so yes he did party.

[Einstein'sCurve]

There was a prevailing view in some sports medecine circles that the clear was THG which is both not very effective AND was not illegal at the time.

Yet THG seemed to be the drug of choice used by the creme de la athletes named.

Maybe not as heavy duty as other selections, but seemly deadly enough to set records, win medals and undetectable for that purpose until busted.

I've gotten to the point where it really matters very little what most major political, business and sports figures say. They are usually full of themselves and already sold their souls to the devil for fame and money, and money primarily is the root of evil. Huge sums of money at stake, and if Fred, Sam, and Mike are going to do steroids to secure million$ more than you, do you just dry up and blow away or fight fire with fire?

Fudge the books, fudge the rhetoric, damn the torpedos and drug tests, it's all the same game, win at any cost. It's what America has become notorious for these days and it's spreading globally.

[brett]

Being close to the sports science crowd, I have asked about THG. Those who I talk with are of the opinion that Balco told athletes that they were taking THG which was technically legal, and not banned in baseball until recently so it was touted as a legal and undetectible alternative to steroids. I always wondered why it would have to be undetectable if it was legal.

anyway, the line is that THG gave athletes the "feel" that it was working, that it gave a psychological/emotional response similar to testosterone, but that itself it was a "trash" suppliment in that any hard core steroid user would not use it because it was so ineffective. It still has not been demonstrated to have any significant anabolic action. Basically then, it was an androgen, and so it "felt" like an androgen, but it was not an anabolic.

Basically my sources felt that Balco used THG to dupe athletes into thinking that their supplimentation was effective, but that they also may have included testosterone and epitestosterone (to mask it from testing) but that the THG gave such a strong feeling that it was working that they included it as well.

There was even an off handed opinion that Balco put THG in mineral suppliments (zinc) which was supposed to naturally boost test, just to make athletes feel it was having an effect.

It doesn't all make sense. Hopefully we will learn something in these proceedings.

[Mattingly]

I have two main points. One is that I now have reason to believe that "the clear" was not simply THG. That is important because it makes Bonds a cheater in my view. He is responsible for what he took. There was a prevailing view in some sports medecine circles that the clear was THG which is both not very effective AND was not illegal at the time.

Second, Bonds can be found guilty of pergury if Anderson witnesses simply that he and Bonds talked about illegal steroids or similar substances. Bonds was specifically asked 3 times if Anderson ever mentioned steroids to him, and Bonds said no.
In that case, if "the clear" was something other than TGH, then what exactly was it? I haven't followed the drug lingo
much, since I'd have to know more about that. What exactly was included in "the clear" that Bonds took that makes you feel he'd cheated?

Where did that prevailing view in medical sports come about that "the clear" is neither very effective, and is not illegal? Do you have any links from any well-known and respected medical sources?

What do you mean by Anderson witnesses? Greg Anderson himself or someone who was in the same room as himself?

So Bonds said "no" to steroids? So did Jason Giambi. There's more to PEDs than just straight-up steroids. There are other drugs available that can be more easily masked that may not be steroids.

It's as if someone is asked if they'd robbed someone at gunpoint. If that person says "No", then how do you know that the person didn't do so with a knife unless if you ask?

To me, "steroids" isn't the only thing available. At his salary, if he'd wanted to cheat, he'd very likely use something that an average bodybuilder making less than 1% of his salary would use.

[Old Sweater]

I've thought that it isn't fair to Jones's teammates to have their medals taken away, because even though they benifited from her cheating, they themselves did not cheat.

Bonds is similar there too. If you're going to penalize him, you're going to have to penalize everyone else who benifited from him, which is next to impossible.


That could be a hit and a miss with her teammates Sam. Good chance that they just didn't get caught or threaten with perjury.

[cosmo34]

Read "Game of Shadows" and this will be all more clear, very good read if I may say so myself. :)

That book has absolutely no credibility whatsoever. I will never, ever believe anything those two geniuses have to say. They could tell me the sky is blue, and I'd still have to look up before I believe them.

It's not becuase I have my head in the sand and don't think that Bonds didn't ever take anything. But when you are writing a supposed "tell-all" book that is gonna tear the cover off the baseball world, and you can't even get your steroid profiles correct, you are an idiot. In the book, they were giving a brief description of what Winni and Deca do, their ester life, etc... They gave the definition of Winni for Deca, and Deca for Winni.

You have to be some kind of moron to write a book on steroids, but you can't correctly describe the steroids you're talking about.

[Ubiquitous]

Second, Bonds can be found guilty of pergury if Anderson witnesses simply that he and Bonds talked about illegal steroids or similar substances. Bonds was specifically asked 3 times if Anderson ever mentioned steroids to him, and Bonds said no.

Except you then have to prove that when they talked about "the clear" or "the cream" that Bonds knew it was a steroid. If Greg says "Hey Barry I've got this stuff called the clear and it is great it does this this and this" but he never says it is a steroid then Bonds isn't lying.

[ESPNFan]

I have two main points. One is that I now have reason to believe that "the clear" was not simply THG. That is important because it makes Bonds a cheater in my view. He is responsible for what he took. There was a prevailing view in some sports medecine circles that the clear was THG which is both not very effective AND was not illegal at the time.

Second, Bonds can be found guilty of pergury if Anderson witnesses simply that he and Bonds talked about illegal steroids or similar substances. Bonds was specifically asked 3 times if Anderson ever mentioned steroids to him, and Bonds said no.

Well Bonds seems to have been taking a number of things and THG or the "Clear" was probably one of them. BTW THG was legal only because the government wasnt aware of it. Basically it was a combination of two known substances Trenbolone a known anabolic, and Gestrinone,(a hormone which was/is used for infertility.) Both were not legal to use in this manner and the FDA declared as much when THG/The clear was finally uncovered.

The thing that made the clear unique was the way that the two pre-existing substances were combined caused it to evade the drug tests of the time.

As for THG 's effectiveness, sure its not geared to people who want to pack on mass. But its perfect for people like Jones and other olympic level athletes where the testing was much more prevelent and the penalties harsh. At this level THG was just the thing to gain an edge and turn someone like Jones into a International superstar.

[MyDogSparty]

Except you then have to prove that when they talked about "the clear" or "the cream" that Bonds knew it was a steroid. If Greg says "Hey Barry I've got this stuff called the clear and it is great it does this this and this" but he never says it is a steroid then Bonds isn't lying.

That's right, he wouldn't be lying but he'd still be responsible for taking steroids.

[SamtheBravesFan]

That could be a hit and a miss with her teammates Sam. Good chance that they just didn't get caught or threaten with perjury.

I guess, but only they know.

[cosmo34]

Something to think about. All they ever asked Barry was if he took steroids.
HGH is not a steroid, it's a protein. If he was taking HGH and not other steroids, he wasn't lying.

"Barry, did you ever take steroids?"

"No." (In his head, I took some *cough* protein *cough*)

[Mattingly]

Anybody know the name of the judge? From what I've heard, the same judge in the case of Marion Jones (though I'm unsure which trial she actually was stood up against) is the same as in the case for Barry Bonds.

[Mattingly]

Something to think about. All they ever asked Barry was if he took steroids.
HGH is not a steroid, it's a protein. If he was taking HGH and not other steroids, he wasn't lying.

"Barry, did you ever take steroids?"

"No." (In his head, I took some *cough* protein *cough*)
Sounds like one of those "Did you steal from them?" questions, followed by a "no" answer, but in actuality, the person robbed the other.

Theft and robbery must be two different things. Pickpocketing is another.

I remember Jason Giambi answering some questions earlier by saying that he did not take "steroids". If not, then it must've been something.

Could the questions have been too specific as to what the person was accused of having taken? Where can one obtain a link to the exact questions asked, as well as their answers?

[SHOELESSJOE3]

Bonds doesn't deserve to take all the heat for the steroid era. He's one of three greatest players ever along with Babe Ruth and Ted Williams. Nobody has called for Gaylord Perry's numbers to be stripped and he admitted to cheating. The Babe never faced black players or pitchers and many consider him the best player ever. Records are just recorded events. They need to be put in context.


How is not playing against black players the same as rule breaking. Do we just ignore everything that took place in the game before 1947.A shame, blacks not given their chance but we can't change history.

[SHOELESSJOE3]

I have read some about Marion Jones and now it looks like Bonds is in more trouble than I had though.

Jones plead guilty, and gave up all of her medals and winnings since 2000 and yet she has only admitted to having use "the clear", or at least "the clear" was an important part of the case.

The clear has been thought to be a designer steroid (which didn't work very well at all) and which was not illegal until 2002. It looks like the Feds don't care, they still want to prosecut those who lied during the investigation of the "technically legal designer steroids".

Bonds case is totally about lying, and not about his use. If he heard the term "the clear" from Anderson, or anyone from Balco prior to the GJ investigation, he will probably have to plead guilty to purgery.

Unfortunately, we will probably never be able to confirm (or refute) that Bonds broke any law or rule as far as taking any substance.

Of course, Jones could have been lying. She might have been taking loads of stuff.

I will point out that the suggested "signs" of Bonds use (size increases) are not evident in Jones.


I did see some pics of woman runner about a year ago while using and after she stopped use. I don't recall her name but she admitted to using steroids and then stopped using them. They showed her in her running gear from behind, while using and after she had stopped use. The difference was very obvious. The shoulders and even the arms from behind were more bulky looking. Pics after she stopped use much slimmer overall.

In fact the pics of her from a rear view while using, you could not be sure if it was a male or female. If you looked hard enough you could tell but at first glance not so evident.

[west coast orange and black]

cosmo34: All they ever asked Barry was if he took steroids .... If [Bonds] was taking HGH and not other steroids, he wasn't lying.

not exactly.
the questioner earlier requested that "steroids" would be taken to include, for questioning purposes only, hgh and other substances.
all agreed.
which brings me to...

[west coast orange and black]

brett: Bonds can be found guilty of pergury if Anderson witnesses simply that he and Bonds talked about illegal steroids or similar substances. Bonds was specifically asked 3 times if Anderson ever mentioned steroids to him, and Bonds said no.

bonds had already testified to "as far as he knew".
the court knew that his answers to your cited questions was under the same premise.
there is nothing there for the prosecution with those answers from bonds.

[ESPNFan]

I did see some pics of woman runner about a year ago while using and after she stopped use. I don't recall her name but she admitted to using steroids and then stopped using them. They showed her in her running gear from behind, while using and after she had stopped use. The difference was very obvious. The shoulders and even the arms from behind were more bulky looking. Pics after she stopped use much slimmer overall.

In fact the pics of her from a rear view while using, you could not be sure if it was a male or female. If you looked hard enough you could tell but at first glance not so evident.

And this may be me just pointing out the obvious but I'll do it anyway. Someone training for track a field events is going to train much differently than someone who is looking for explosive power while swinging a bat. So your obviously going to have two different body types as a result and that isn't even taking into account the gender differences.

[Ytown Tribe fan]

Marion Jones took a substance that made her run faster than her regular training regimen could, or at least accelerated the process.

Bonds has to see the ball and hit the ball squarely. Steroids doesn't help him do that. Steroid use MAY have helped him achieve more muscle mass perhaps faster than a legal nutritional/workout regimen could have. Maybe.

No one has ever shown that any baseball player benefited from taking a banned substance. Until they do, I really don't care what he may have taken.

[SHOELESSJOE3]

And this may be me just pointing out the obvious but I'll do it anyway. Someone training for track a field events is going to train much differently than someone who is looking for explosive power while swinging a bat. So your obviously going to have two different body types as a result and that isn't even taking into account the gender differences.


Agreed I was just pointing out the difference in physical build of that woman track star. Looking at her from behind while on steroids and after she had stopped you would never think it was the same person in both photos.

[SHOELESSJOE3]

Marion Jones took a substance that made her run faster than her regular training regimen could, or at least accelerated the process.

Bonds has to see the ball and hit the ball squarely. Steroids doesn't help him do that. Steroid use MAY have helped him achieve more muscle mass perhaps faster than a legal nutritional/workout regimen could have. Maybe.

No one has ever shown that any baseball player benefited from taking a banned substance. Until they do, I really don't care what he may have taken.

I would say that no one ever will prove that, probably in any sport, thats not the point. It doesn't matter who cares and who doesn't, not just in baseball but any sport where there is a ban. It's against the rules and it's not a stretch to believe that it might enhance performance and athletes using them will always have their accomplishments or numbers in doubt.

Not just Barry, in the years it was banned any ball player who used steroids was breaking a rule.BTW how do you know, how do we prove that steroids made Marion run faster.

No one makes a stink over cyclists, track athletes, boxers or Olympic athletes when they get caught. I don't see anyone coming to their defense saying maybe steroids did not benefit them. Bottom line any sport with a ban you get caught you pay and fans will doubt your performance.

[elmer]

Bonds TWO careers --- pre 1999 and post 1999
Home Runs, Bases on Balls , On base Pct. -- two different people
When others retire at 38-40 he still hits a home run every 12 at bats at age 43.

slg pct before - 1999. .556

slg pct - 1999 - present. .713

HR per at bat before 1999. 16.1

Hr per at bat 1999 - present. 9.2

Bonds +

http://www.fannation.com/truth_and_rumors/view/21951

"Study: Steroids boost HR totals
Posted: Friday September 21, 2007 06:12AM ET

Steroids can help batters hit 50 percent more home runs by boosting their muscle mass by just 10 percent, a U.S. physicist said yesterday. Calculations show that, by putting on 10 percent more muscle mass, a batter can swing about 5 percent faster, increasing the ball's speed by 4 percent as it leaves the bat. Depending on the ball's trajectory, this added speed could take it into home run territory 50 percent more often, said Roger Tobin of Tufts University in Boston."

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cg...DTL&type=chart

[ESPNFan]

Marion Jones took a substance that made her run faster than her regular training regimen could, or at least accelerated the process.

Bonds has to see the ball and hit the ball squarely. Steroids doesn't help him do that. Steroid use MAY have helped him achieve more muscle mass perhaps faster than a legal nutritional/workout regimen could have. Maybe.

No one has ever shown that any baseball player benefited from taking a banned substance. Until they do, I really don't care what he may have taken.

In Jose Canseco's book he basically says that Steroids saved him from being a failed Minor Leaguer.

Jason Giambi's career before steroids according to Caseco was devoid of major power. On the Sauce he was a MVP.

Ken Caminiti said they helped, said they made you hit the ball further, and said he would take them again. Look at his MVP season. He slugged 174 points higher than his career average on the juice and your still wondering if Anabolics help?

[ESPNFan]

I would say that no one ever will prove that, probably in any sport, thats not the point. It doesn't matter who cares and who doesn't, not just in baseball but any sport where there is a ban. It's against the rules and it's not a stretch to believe that it might enhance performance and athletes using them will always have their accomplishments or numbers in doubt.

Not just Barry, in the years it was banned any ball player who used steroids was breaking a rule.BTW how do you know, how do we prove that steroids made Marion run faster.

No one makes a stink over cyclists, track athletes, boxers or Olympic athletes when they get caught. I don't see anyone coming to their defense saying maybe steroids did not benefit them. Bottom line any sport with a ban you get caught you pay and fans will doubt your performance.

You know what the most iron clad proof that it works really is? That Athletes are willing to risk their health and reputations to take it. They aren't being told by science or the intellectual community that they work, infact every establishment entity is telling you how bad they are and not to take them. Yet they still seek out those who can give them the ultimate athletic edge over and over and over.

[Ubiquitous]

That isn't iron clad proof at all.

If that was iron clad proof then we would still be selling snake oil and trying to draw out the evil vapors from our body.

[ESPNFan]

That isn't iron clad proof at all.

If that was iron clad proof then we would still be selling snake oil and trying to draw out the evil vapors from our body.

And what are the penalties for using snake oil for an athlete? How bout the ramifications for drawing out evil vapors on ones reputation?

[Ubiquitous]

And what does that have to do with your "iron clad proof"?

You said the iron clad proof that it works is that athletes use it. Well, that isn't iron clad proof at all, not even close.

[ESPNFan]

And what does that have to do with your "iron clad proof"?

You said the iron clad proof that it works is that athletes use it. Well, that isn't iron clad proof at all, not even close.

Actually thats not what I said. Your taking "atheltes use it" out of context.

The whole quote was "That Athletes are willing to risk their health and reputations to take it." Not only do they take it but they do it while endangering their bodies and their good names.

[Ubiquitous]

And again that isn't iron clad proof that it works. You quibbling over wordage when either way what you said is wrong.

[ESPNFan]

And again that isn't iron clad proof that it works. You quibbling over wordage when either way what you said is wrong.

How is it quibbling over wordage? Name something that an athlete takes to improve their performance that could injure, or down the road, kill them and could ruin their name if their found out that is ineffective.

[Ubiquitous]

And please tell me how that is iron clad proof that something works?

It isn't, it is called anecdotal evidence.

[ESPNFan]

And please tell me how that is iron clad proof that something works?

It isn't, it is called anecdotal evidence.

Oh wait your right. For almost half a century Athletes from sports all over the world have taken them, and continue to take them despite more drug testing. They even seek out clandestine labs to avoid testing further risking their health with black market drugs that could be completely toxic. They risk stiffer penalties than ever before. And the overwhelming negative public perception if you get caught can be career ending beyond any suspensions. Plus every established sports body and Government entity (East German's obviously excluded) puts out millions of dollars in public service annoucements and youth education to condition athletes not to do steroids.

And they still take it.

But thats just anecdotal...:rolleyes:

[ESPNFan]

And again that isn't iron clad proof that it works. You quibbling over wordage when either way what you said is wrong.

And speaking of quibbling your the one making all the fuss about "iron clad" :p

[Ubiquitous]

Oh wait your right. For almost half a century Athletes from sports all over the world have taken them, and continue to take them despite more drug testing. They even seek out clandestine labs to avoid testing further risking their health with black market drugs that could be completely toxic. They risk stiffer penalties than ever before. And the overwhelming negative public perception if you get caught can be career ending beyond any suspensions. Plus every established sports body and Government entity (East German's obviously excluded) puts out millions of dollars in public service annoucements and youth education to condition athletes not to do steroids.

And they still take it.

But thats just anecdotal...:rolleyes:




you are using circular logic. It works because they take it, they take it because it works. Use is not proof and it isn't even close to being "iron clad" proof that it works.

[Ubiquitous]

And speaking of quibbling your the one making all the fuss about "iron clad" :p

No i am arguing that simply taking something is not proof above and beyond anecdotal evidence that something works. You saying it is "iron clad" does not mean that you are saying it is anecdotal evidence, thus I am disagreeing with that notion.

If you had said "absolute proof", clear evidence, a fact, undisputably true, the truth, or anything that can be construed as an absolute certainty then I would have disagreed with you.

[ESPNFan]

you are using circular logic. It works because they take it, they take it because it works. Use is not proof and it isn't even close to being "iron clad" proof that it works.

That not what I am saying or have ever said. What I said, AGAIN, is that despite the numerous negatives associated with and that can result from steroid use athletes still seek to use it.

[ESPNFan]

No i am arguing that simply taking something is not proof above and beyond anecdotal evidence that something works. You saying it is "iron clad" does not mean that you are saying it is anecdotal evidence, thus I am disagreeing with that notion.

If you had said "absolute proof", clear evidence, a fact, undisputably true, the truth, or anything that can be construed as an absolute certainty then I would have disagreed with you.

Exactly, so your numerous posts here have more to due with me using the words "iron clad" than you being able to refute the fact that athletes still using steroids despite all the negatives associated with them is a clear indication of their potency.


That would be, in your words "quibbling over wordage".

[Ubiquitous]

Exactly, so your numerous posts here have more to due with me using the words "iron clad" than you being able to refute the fact that athletes still using steroids despite all the negatives associated with them is a clear indication of their potency.


That would be, in your words "quibbling over wordage".


No again it is me saying that you are using circular logic. It works because they take it, they take it because it works. That is your logic and you claim that as proof. I initially disputed by trying to point out to you that human beings have taken things and have thought they did something to them for centuries yet on closer exmanination they did nothing.

Now for a steroid example take a look at THG. According to Brett it does almost nothing for you yet people who take it think it does do something for them. Why? Because that is one of the effects of the drug, it feels like it is doing something to you, it feels similar to other steroids. So according to your logic that is meaningless. THG works and the proof that it works is all those players using it.

[Ytown Tribe fan]

Willie Wilson swore by cocaine. He swore it made him faster. When he got busted and spent some time in jail, the Royals rewarded him with a big contract. He lost his speed after that and went to the Cubs to try to hit home runs like the big money guys. His career was soon over.

A hundred years ago, some ballplayers would avoid movie theatres in the belief that it weakened their batting eyes. Hard to argue with Rogers Hornsby about that.

Joe Jackson used to cover one eye and stare at a candle flame to improve his batting eye. He was one of the greatest batter ever.

Around the same time, most ballplayers shunned weight training in the belief that it made them musclebound and reduced their ability to swing the bat well. Hard to argue with Babe Ruth.


Steroids and HGH are the new greenies. Athletes break the rules and the law in the belief that it helps them perform better and recover from injuries faster.

[Einstein'sCurve]

No one makes a stink over cyclists, track athletes, boxers or Olympic athletes when they get caught.

Actually there is a huge stink in all of those sports over PEDs save pro boxing which seems to have less of a problem, but more willing to excuse the few found athletes.

Pro cycling in particular has been dealing with massive scandals in spite of having what may be the most rigorous testing of any sport. Entire teams have been fractured and mother's milk, the sponsors, are starting to withdraw.

Most physicians prescribe steroids routinely to their patients to assist in various recovery or maintainance programs. Some of these docs think steroids should be legal for athletes to level the playing field. Then you have all the trainers and coaches looking for any improvements in athletes.

Barry becomes such a unique case because of his established credentials before the steroid controversy, the massive nature of his improvement after the steroid associatiation, and claims of racism within baseball and American society.

These controversies are but tempests in a teapot compared to what is coming down the pike as science and the global population explosion march forward at unprecedented speed.

These little squabbles over sport will be the good old days.

BTW, Shoeless, are you the Shoeless and BabyRuth from the old aol boards?

[Ytown Tribe fan]

Here's the study I am waiting for:

All homers are measured. Go back to 1999 and knock 10% off the distance of every homer that Barry hit. How many would still have cleared the fences?

Would that give you a close estimate of the true number of homers he actually hit?