The Angels Made The Worst Move In Baseball History (sign Torii Hunter for $90m/5 yrs)

[ChrisLDuncan]

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/al/angels/2007-11-22-hunter_N.htm

Torii Hunter for 90 Mill Five years :rofl:, that has to be one of the worst contracts I've seen in a while. I guess firing Bill Stoneman really helped things. :rolleyes:

[OleMissCub]

http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20071122&content_id=2306608&vkey=hotstove2007&fext=.jsp

In a stunning move, the Los Angeles Angels of Anaheim have signed free-agent center fielder Torii Hunter to a five-year deal worth at least $80 million, according to The Associated Press. Terms of the contract were not released, and the agreement is pending a physical.

Hunter is intensely overrated and now very overpaid.

[placount]

good riddance

[placount]

this deal is laughable really. i cant believe people give the twins a hard time for not wanting to pay him

[OleMissCub]

Hell, Alfonso Soriano is only making 13m/yr and this guy is now making 16...jeez.

[Mattingly]

Is it his offense, his defense or his baserunning skills that have gone south recently?

[ChrisLDuncan]

Is it his offense, his defense or his baserunning skills that have gone south recently?

He has a putrid career OBP of .324, and a career OPS+ of 104 (career EqA of .252), he has always been overrated defensively, and his baserunning is average...but you don't pay 18 mill a season for any of those qualities.

[Zagi-CRO]

Hunter obviously was surprised the Angels were even interested in him. On Nov. 22, the Angels agreed to a $50 million, five-year deal with Gary Matthews Jr. to play center.

"They shocked me. I didn't think they needed a center fielder," Hunter said in a conference call.

He added with a laugh, "They shocked the world."
------------------------------------------------------------
RF Guerrero
CF Matthews
CF Hunter
LF G.Anderson

It's amazing stuff!!

[OleMissCub]

I don't know....Cubs trading Lou Brock for Ernie Broglio is pretty bad..

[Zagi-CRO]

Hunter's trade in LAA isn't the worst move.
The Angels have a lot of money and Torii is good CF.

[philkid3]

Hunter's trade in LAA isn't the worst move.
The Angels have a lot of money and Torii is good CF.

The Angels may have money, but they still have a limit. Paying that much for a below-average hitter and slightly above-average fielder is not a good move. It's pretty insane, in fact.

I'm glad the Rangers can't make the stupid signing I thought they would, now. Thank you, Angels!

[Zagi-CRO]

A-Rod didn't go into detail but in a video interview with MLB.com posted over the weekend did refer to negotiations that are leading toward a $275 million, 10-year contract with the Yankees.


And what about this trade?
Does A-Rod deserves this money?
Is it the worst move...?? $27,5 M per year?

[Mattingly]

A-Rod didn't go into detail but in a video interview with MLB.com posted over the weekend did refer to negotiations that are leading toward a $275 million, 10-year contract with the Yankees.

And what about this trade?
Does A-Rod deserves this money?
Is it the worst move...?? $27,5 M per year?
Alex Rodriguez has legit MVP numbers, which he obviously won. For a CFer, especially one making top dollar like this, his offense, defense and baserunning skills should all be high.

I think that once a player doesn't have the full package, their price tag should suffer. Looking back at Jason Giambi when he'd signed with the Yanks for 2002-08, he only had offense, but very little defense or baserunning skills (unless you count two lead feet).

[slugger33]

This really doesn't make much sense to me. They gave Hunter a huge contract, while they already have a decent centerfielder. Do they plan on trading Matthews?

[Zagi-CRO]

Acquiring Hunter could lead to trading Matthews -- perhaps to the Baltimore Orioles for shortstop Miguel Tejada.

I think it's a nice plan for the Angels.

[Rags2Riches]

This really doesn't make much sense to me. They gave Hunter a huge contract, while they already have a decent centerfielder. Do they plan on trading Matthews?

yeah the article stated that it could possibility open up a trade with the O's for Miggy.....man I hope not (been there done that with Matthews already) and the last thing the O's need is another guy who is linked to steriods, like Gibbons, Miggy, Raffy etc..........:eek:

[Mattingly]

yeah the article stated that it could possibility open up a trade with the O's for Miggy.....man I hope not (been there done that with Matthews already) and the last thing the O's need is another guy who is linked to steriods, like Gibbons, Miggy, Raffy etc..........:eek:
I'm not so sure that Jose Canseco's word is fully credible to me. Is that why you believe that Tejada's linked to steroids?

I think that Canseco, seeing he couldn't claim innocence, took advantage of the public's heavy thirst for steroids information, so he gave them what they'd wanted, and he's a former slugger who'd used.

With Tejada, I think it was more a matter of his not being as good defensively as he was in the past, and him not running out a few ground balls.

Guillermo Mota, a mid reliever who was routinely booed by Mets fans for blowing games, had failed a steroids test, got a 50-game suspension. Yet the Mets still traded him for Johnny Estrada (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=70575).

Despite the ineffectiveness and the PED thing hanging around his head, someone still wanted him. I'm amazed (and the Mets are Amazin')! :D

[rockin500]

This really doesn't make much sense to me. They gave Hunter a huge contract, while they already have a decent centerfielder. Do they plan on trading Matthews?
no, they plan on splitting Vlad and Garrett Anderson between the outfield and DH while Sarge Jr. plays everyday in one spot. at least according to the article, at any rate.

[Erik Bedard]

Wow. First Matthews, then Pierre, then Ichiro, now Hunter, next Andruw Jones. Overrated CFers getting overpaid.

[skyking162]

Wow. First Matthews, then Pierre, then Ichiro, now Hunter, next Andruw Jones. Overrated CFers getting overpaid.

Ichiro doesn't belong in that group. He was one of the five most productive players in the AL this season.

As for Hunter, he wasn't given much more money than the going rate for free agents these days (not that that justifies the signing). Barry Zito's contract was the stupidest one of the past few years.

[Mariano_Rivera]

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/al/angels/2007-11-22-hunter_N.htm

Torii Hunter for 90 Mill Five years :rofl:, that has to be one of the worst contracts I've seen in a while. I guess firing Bill Stoneman really helped things. :rolleyes:

The worst move in recent memory was signing Barry Zito to an 8 year 126 million dollar deal but that is to muich. It fill a big hole but he`ll be getting almost 20 million a year

[DoubleX]

This is a pretty ridiculous deal. Hunter is 32 and has a career 104 OPS+. He's a nice player, but for 18 mil per until he's 37, I think that's pretty steep.

If that kind of money is out there for Hunter, it really makes me think that had Boras had time to fully explore and manipulate the market as only he can, A-Rod could have landed a contract paying around 30 mil per.

I guess the Angels thing now will be to overpay aging CFers.

[Rags2Riches]

I'm not so sure that Jose Canseco's word is fully credible to me. Is that why you believe that Tejada's linked to steroids?

when Raffy failed his drug test he stated that Miggy gave him the substance that was in question...hence his failing the drug test....also it seems as if some of those rumors of Jose' could have been true cause seemly right after Raffy's failed test it seems as if Miggy' power #' have slighty declined some.....

[digglahhh]

Ichiro doesn't belong in that group. He was one of the five most productive players in the AL this season.

Ichiro was 4th in MLB in Win Shares last year.

Just because he's overrated doesn't mean he's not still great!

In fact, Ichiro is worth $20M even in an off year. Is there another player in the league who singlehandedly opens up a market of over a hundred million people?

[Zagi-CRO]

We had that thread, about the worst signing.
Jason Schmidt has ONE win for $48 million over 3 y. That means $16 for ONE win. This is a terrible deal.
But Barry Zito is something special!! 11-13 with an ERA 4.53

[digglahhh]

And what about this trade?
Does A-Rod deserves this money?
Is it the worst move...?? $27,5 M per year?

Put it this way, A-Rod is certainly worth 9.5M more than Tori Hunter!

Relatively speaking, A-Rod isn't anywhere near as overpaid as Hunter.

I could name, literally, over a hundred players more overpaid than A-Rod.

[Zagi-CRO]

Put it this way, A-Rod is certainly worth 9.5M more than Tori Hunter!

Relatively speaking, A-Rod isn't anywhere near as overpaid as Hunter.

I could name, literally, over a hundred players more overpaid than A-Rod.

A-Rod and T.Hunter are the different players, I agree.
I think A-Rod deserved that money.

[leecemark]

--I don't know that this is the worst deal ever, Hunter is a good player who is being seriously overpaid, but the bang for the buck on this deal should be better than some other disasterous deals. I don't understand why the Angels thought this was the best use of their bankroll though. I'd have gone 30 for A-Rod before 18 for Hunter without a second thought. Not only is Rodriguez a MUCH better player he would have addressed a bigger need for the Angels .
-- Of course, the 5/30 that remain would have remained on A-Rod's deal once Hunter is off the payrolll would give alot of teams pause. Rodriguez is worth it now, but that is a big chunk of payroll to have committed to someone in their late 30s/early 40s. Especially since he probably won't be able to handle 3B by that point.

[nerfan]

Remember the 5Y/55M deal that the Royals gave to Gil Meche?

He went only 9-13, but was an All-Star and had a 128 ERA+, not too far behind the likes of Santana, Kazmir, Haren, and Kelvim Escobar. He also led the league in games started.

I was one of the only semi-supporters of that deal. It sort of made sense. Meche was just entering his prime at 28. They would let go of him after he had peaked (although if Dusty Baker was around, he would have signed Meche to an 8-year deal to get his strongest season at age 35).

Torii Hunter is NOT a good deal. He will have his first season at age 32. He will have his last season at age 36. Most players skills are eroded (especially fielding) by that age. Even worse, Hunter has a .324 OBP.

Where Gil Meche may sometimes work (for every Meche, there is another one that doesn't pan out (Darren Dreifort comes to mind), a Torii Hunter type signing will usually not.

[psbaseballfan27]

Reports from espn say that the angels and FA Torii Hunter have agreed in principal to a five year deal.

[Mattingly]

when Raffy failed his drug test he stated that Miggy gave him the substance that was in question...hence his failing the drug test....also it seems as if some of those rumors of Jose' could have been true cause seemly right after Raffy's failed test it seems as if Miggy' power #' have slighty declined some.....
I think I got those two mixed up. Yes, it was Raffy who'd fingered Tejada, and many felt that Palmeiro had broken an unspoken rule that you don't rat out your teammates like that, which is what Canseco did quite willingly.

Which power numbers for Miggy are you referring to that declined? RBI? HR? OPS?

http://www.baseball-reference.com/t/tejadmi01.shtml

In 2003, which was his final Oakland season, his HR, BA, RBI & SLG numbers each took about a 30 point dip.

In 2004 with Baltimore, his RBI numbers went from 150 to 98. He had 281 RBI in 2002 & 2004 (2 year period), but had 279 RBI from 2005-07 (3 year period).

I'm not sure if that indicates his skills eroding with age, or that he'd been on the juice at one point, but then stopped taking this when the PED testing got more strict.

[Mattingly]

Reports from espn say that the angels and FA Torii Hunter have agreed in principal to a five year deal.
Merging here.

[plask_stirlac]

This is a massive deal. They paid MORE than his 2007 would deserve, and that was a career year with no DL time. He missed time in 2004, 2005, 2006... and he's getting older.

He is very talented and relies on his physical gifts. He should, he should. Plenty of power, steals bases, runs for extra bases, runs hard on defense and gets those "unreachable" ones. But if he loses any edge, he's toast. And that's when he's healthy. He looked worse on D in 2006 after the nagging injuries.

Hunter isn't worth $15M in reality, but this is funny money and there's some premium just for getting him. The Rangers get pounded, they probably couldn't challenge the Angels in 2008 but this cements it. He has as much power as anyone on the A's. He might be dead weight in 2011 or 2012, though.

Think about it, 2012. He'll be getting $18M until the NEXT presidential election season.

[Rags2Riches]

I think I got those two mixed up. Yes, it was Raffy who'd fingered Tejada, and many felt that Palmeiro had broken an unspoken rule that you don't rat out your teammates like that, which is what Canseco did quite willingly.

Which power numbers for Miggy are you referring to that declined? RBI? HR? OPS?

http://www.baseball-reference.com/t/tejadmi01.shtml

In 2003, which was his final Oakland season, his HR, BA, RBI & SLG numbers each took about a 30 point dip.

In 2004 with Baltimore, his RBI numbers went from 150 to 98. He had 281 RBI in 2002 & 2004 (2 year period), but had 279 RBI from 2005-07 (3 year period).

I'm not sure if that indicates his skills eroding with age, or that he'd been on the juice at one point, but then stopped taking this when the PED testing got more strict.


I do believe that his age has alot to do with his decline, (and personally speaking imo there are only a few players in MLB who can keep up the pace power wise yr in and yr out over their careers) but given the last 2 seasons and coupled with injuries that have slighty plagued MIggy (and they say steriods help you heal faster :dance) 1 would have to wonder are those rumors true.....

I don't base this on any evidence what so ever, just being 50mins from down town Bmore and following the O's in the paper, the news, and the MASN network, and call in talk shows, alot of people around these parts wonder then same thing.

[Charger567]

The Angels may have money, but they still have a limit. Paying that much for a below-average hitter and slightly above-average fielder is not a good move. It's pretty insane, in fact.

I'm glad the Rangers can't make the stupid signing I thought they would, now. Thank you, Angels!

BELOW-AVERAGE? TORII HUNTER?

I am going to go ahead and assume that whole post was a joke.

Also, why is it such a big deal when the Angels do it and not when the Yanks, or even sometimes the Sox do it?

The Yanks paid 16 million a year for Johnson a few years back at age 40.
They are paying Giambi 20M a year.
They are paying Johnny Damon 13M a year.

We are paying JD Drew 15M a year.
We are paying Julio Lugo 9M a year.
We are paying Jason Varitek 10M a year.

[Neilios]

When the Angels are able to use their surplus at different positions (P, OF) to acquire Tejada and/or Miguel Cabrera, then tell me this was a stupid move.

Yeah didn't think you'd be able to...

[Erik Bedard]

BELOW-AVERAGE? TORII HUNTER?

I am going to go ahead and assume that whole post was a joke.

Also, why is it such a big deal when the Angels do it and not when the Yanks, or even sometimes the Sox do it?

The Yanks paid 16 million a year for Johnson a few years back at age 40. Dumb.
They are paying Giambi 20M a year. Dumb.
They are paying Johnny Damon 13M a year. Dumb.

We are paying JD Drew 15M a year. Dumb, and this was a big deal, IIRC
We are paying Julio Lugo 9M a year. Wasn't dumb at the date of the signing.
We are paying Jason Varitek 10M a year. Not really dumb, perhaps slightly overpaying, but not a big deal.

Comments in bold.

Also, Neilios makes a great point. If the O's or Marlins are dumb enough to take Matthews Jr. in a deal involving Tejada or Cabrera, then signing Hunter will look like a genius move. But it could just as easily blow up in their face.

[emaher29]

http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20071122&content_id=2306608&vkey=hotstove2007&fext=.jsp



Hunter is intensely overrated and now very overpaid.

Hunter is a decent hitter and an amazing defensive guy everybody out there in center field, but 90million is ridiculous

[Knick9]

I'm not really surprised that the Angels would overpay for a guy like Hunter. I guess they've already soured on Matthews, Jr.? :shrug:

It's not real shocking to see the Angels in the middle of all this these days.

[Ytown Tribe fan]

This was hardly the worst move in baseball history. In fact, it is more like the typical Angels move of the '70s than anything else.

I guess Reggie Jackson wouldn't come out of retirement no matter how much they offered him.

[Elvis]

Jeez, the Angels are paying Hunter just a few million less per year than A-Rod. Stupid contract--makes me feel a little better about Juan Pierre's deal now.

[philkid3]

BELOW-AVERAGE? TORII HUNTER?

I am going to go ahead and assume that whole post was a joke.
Okay, slightly above league average offensively. Just slightly. And it's not like he plays middle infield.

No, it was not a joke. His career EqA is .362. Almost exactly average.


Also, why is it such a big deal when the Angels do it and not when the Yanks, or even sometimes the Sox do it?
I don't think the Yankees have ever made a deal that bad without hindsight, and even then, they don't have a payroll limit, where as the Angels do.

Also, the Yankees tend to overpay for the best player available. The Twins didn't even do that.


The Yanks paid 16 million a year for Johnson a few years back at age 40.
They are paying Giambi 20M a year.
They are paying Johnny Damon 13M a year.
Yup, but all those players deserved those contracts at one point more than Hunter ever has.


We are paying JD Drew 15M a year.
We are paying Julio Lugo 9M a year.
We are paying Jason Varitek 10M a year.
Same.

[ElHalo]

Fun fact about Torii Hunter: He's never had even a partial season in his entire career when his OBP was more than 4/1000's of a point over league average (.337 to .333 in 2005)!

Another fun fact: Since 2002, Hunter is -28 in FRAA, and has been in the bottom half of defensive CF's four of the six years since!

But it's not like the Angels already had a CF'er with an eight digit contract signed for the next four years already...

[Elvis]

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/al/angels/2007-11-22-hunter_N.htm

Torii Hunter for 90 Mill Five years :rofl:, that has to be one of the worst contracts I've seen in a while. I guess firing Bill Stoneman really helped things. :rolleyes:

Hey Chris, does this trump Juan Pierre's contract? :) Somehow $9M for JP seems almost reasonable now. :shhh:

[cardsfanatic]

Considering Lee's highway robbery last year this Hunter deal doesn't look that bad to me.

[Mattingly]

Hell, Alfonso Soriano is only making 13m/yr and this guy is now making 16...jeez.
I'm not sure where you got $13m from, but in 2007, Soriano gets $10m (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?playerId=3993).

For the contract, he got $136m/8 yrs, which is $17m/yr.
Jeez, the Angels are paying Hunter just a few million less per year than A-Rod. Stupid contract--makes me feel a little better about Juan Pierre's deal now.
After Zito got $144m/8 yrs last winter, I figure that someone was surely to overpay for a household name.

[Mattingly]

I do believe that his age has alot to do with his decline, (and personally speaking imo there are only a few players in MLB who can keep up the pace power wise yr in and yr out over their careers) but given the last 2 seasons and coupled with injuries that have slighty plagued MIggy (and they say steriods help you heal faster :dance) 1 would have to wonder are those rumors true.....

I don't base this on any evidence what so ever, just being 50mins from down town Bmore and following the O's in the paper, the news, and the MASN network, and call in talk shows, alot of people around these parts wonder then same thing.
What exactly were his injuries? His back? Tightness of the hamstrings?

I thought that it was the guys who'd kept on producing at an advanced age, especially one where others declined, that were the most suspicious. That's why Bonds and Clemens have come under doubt. I remember that Canseco said that Clemens looked suspiciously good and seemed like he was a likely user in that TV interview on 60 Minutes.

Hey, at least you follow the team quite closely. Can't beat the local papers and call-in sports talk shows. The direct approach to the fans and hearing from them is always one that's greatly honored! :D

Which papers do you read? Baltimore Sun?

[insanefishpossay]

Torii Hunter is a very good player, but he's not worth a penny more than $12 million he made last season.

He's always put up respectable season stats, but he is incredibly streaky and un-clutch. Last season was the best of his career, and it also happened to come in the last year of his contract. Coincidence? How many times have we seen above-average-at-best players put up monster numbers in their contract year, only to return to mediocrity?

I was slightly disappointed when I read the headline about Hunter signing with the Angels, but upon learning he somehow got $90 million for 5 years I couldn't help but laugh. Torii may have one or two above-average seasons left in him, but five? No chance.

[Mattingly]

Hey Chris, does this trump Juan Pierre's contract? :) Somehow $9M for JP seems almost reasonable now. :shhh:
All depends. How much did people expect Juan Pierre to sign for when he did? He seemed like a decent leadoff hitter who played CF, but $9m seems a bit much. I guess that the 2003 WS gave him more attention in the spotlight.

Torii Hunter, I'd have expected to sign for about $12-13m at most. I doubt that I'd have gone beyond 4 years, and especially since Mike Lowell just signed for 3 years. But 5 years? I'm not sure about that.

Just shows that it's a MADD MADD MADD MADD WORLD!

[plask_stirlac]

When the Angels are able to use their surplus at different positions (P, OF) to acquire Tejada and/or Miguel Cabrera, then tell me this was a stupid move.

Yeah didn't think you'd be able to...

Well lots of teams could get Tejada and/or Cabrera and/or Santana and/or Halladay but let's not count rumors as reality.

The Red Sox could get Cabrera for Bucholz and Lowell paying 1/2 his salary but there's a 0% chance of that.

[Mattingly]

When the Angels are able to use their surplus at different positions (P, OF) to acquire Tejada and/or Miguel Cabrera, then tell me this was a stupid move.

Yeah didn't think you'd be able to...
In that case, which player who's currently on their roster do you think that Anaheim can now trade after the Torii Hunter signing?

[ChrisLDuncan]

The worst move in recent memory was signing Barry Zito to an 8 year 126 million dollar deal but that is to muich. It fill a big hole but he`ll be getting almost 20 million a year

I'd rather pay that to a left handed pitcher who has never missed a start and also who was above average in the AL, then a CF who's declining.

[ChrisLDuncan]

Hey Chris, does this trump Juan Pierre's contract? :) Somehow $9M for JP seems almost reasonable now. :shhh:

Almost? It makes it seem awesome now. You can actually trade him and let the kids play now :highfive:

[Mariano_Rivera]

We had that thread, about the worst signing.
Jason Schmidt has ONE win for $48 million over 3 y. That means $16 for ONE win. This is a terrible deal.
But Barry Zito is something special!! 11-13 with an ERA 4.53

Schmidt still has potential though. Carl Pavano is looking pretty bad right now....

[tigers527]

I wonder....I have seen Mike Scioscia more then once employ 5 infielders. Moving Chone Figgins right behind 2nd base when a "Punch & Judy" type hitter is at the plate. Perhaps, he will employ this tactic more often when he can feature a RCFer like Mathews and a LCFer like Hunter?

I wonder if you did have 2 OFers for a full game with a ground ball type pitcher. Would you win, lose or break even when it came to the extra hits you give up in the OF vs the extra outs you make in the IF?

I am sure someone smarter then me has looked at all those little dribblers up the middle that get through. Then compared them to the doubles down the line and little Texas league bloop singles. And came to the conclusion that 4 IFers and 3 OFers is the way to go.

Who knows where this deal will lead? But it would be cool to see a game with frequent use of the 5 IFers. For the novelity of it if nothing else.

[Mariano_Rivera]

I'd rather pay that to a left handed pitcher who has never missed a start and also who was above average in the AL, then a CF who's declining.

Their is also the 30 million dollar difference and the bigger risk involving pitchers and injuries. Both are mediocore players who got star money

[digglahhh]

Terrible signings...

Darren Dreifort and Chan Ho Park say hi!

[ChrisLDuncan]

Their is also the 30 million dollar difference and the bigger risk involving pitchers and injuries. Both are mediocore players who got star money

I'd rather have Barry Zito than Torii Hunter, they make the exact same per year. Zito was still dumb though.

[Mattingly]

Schmidt still has potential though. Carl Pavano is looking pretty bad right now....
So what the heck happened to Jason Schmidt (http://www.baseball-reference.com/s/schmija01.shtml)? He averaged 200 innings from 2002-06 with the SF Giants, then he goes over to the other former NYC NL team, LAD and does all of 25.7 innings. Twenty-five and two-thirds innings?

Despite not showing up at all for 2006, Pavano (http://www.baseball-reference.com/p/pavanca01.shtml) at least gave us a semi-decent 100 innings in 2005. However, he 2007, he only gave us 11.3 innings. While that's pretty bad, he "only" cost us about 2/3 of what Schmidt cost us.

[Elvis]

So what the heck happened to Jason Schmidt (http://www.baseball-reference.com/s/schmija01.shtml)? He averaged 200 innings from 2002-06 with the SF Giants, then he goes over to the other former NYC NL team, LAD and does all of 25.7 innings. Twenty-five and two-thirds innings?


Kind of hard to throw 200 innings with a torn labrum.

[dl4060]

Alex Rodriguez has legit MVP numbers, which he obviously won. For a CFer, especially one making top dollar like this, his offense, defense and baserunning skills should all be high.

I think that once a player doesn't have the full package, their price tag should suffer. Looking back at Jason Giambi when he'd signed with the Yanks for 2002-08, he only had offense, but very little defense or baserunning skills (unless you count two lead feet).

I think the Giambi contract is much more justifiable. He only had offense, but he was a great offensive player, and offense is by far the most important facet of a player's game. Giambi was an extremely valuable player in 02,03,05,and 06.

[dl4060]

Ichiro was 4th in MLB in Win Shares last year.

Just because he's overrated doesn't mean he's not still great!

In fact, Ichiro is worth $20M even in an off year. Is there another player in the league who singlehandedly opens up a market of over a hundred million people?

Ichiro is indeed more valuable economically than he is on the field. He has probably been the most overrated player in baseball since he came into the league.

[BosoxOrioles69]

Ichiro Suzuki... "overrated"?
guaranteed +200hits, .350AVG .390OBP, .431SLG, cannon arm with solid fielding and great speed.. overrated? He gets games going, the best leadoff in the game in the majors.

He should be getting 20M per year and that would still not be enough.

[dl4060]

Ichiro Suzuki... "overrated"?
guaranteed +200hits, .350AVG .390OBP, .431SLG, cannon arm with solid fielding and great speed.. overrated? He gets games going, the best leadoff in the game in the majors.

He should be getting 20M per year and that would still not be enough.


His career OPS+ is only 119, which is below the level of a superstar corner outfielder. His move to center has made him more valuable, but he is not nearly as great as the hype that accompanies him.

There are about 1,000 threads discussing Ichiro. The vast majority of posters see him as extremely overrated. I'm not going to go into great lengths here to discuss it. If you want to see my opinion(and the opinion of others) on this subject there are plenty of threads which discuss Ichiro.

[Mattingly]

I think the Giambi contract is much more justifiable. He only had offense, but he was a great offensive player, and offense is by far the most important facet of a player's game. Giambi was an extremely valuable player in 02,03,05,and 06.
That's a whole 'nother bag of worms you've opened up. We had Tino at the time, and Giambi was an offensive upgrade to Tino. In fact, Tino refused to sign with another team until the Giambi deal was finalized. That's how faithful he was to the Yankee organization. Even those who'd wanted Giambi or were on the fence had to love a guy like that.

The problem is that Giambi's bat is great, but his foot speed is lousy and his defense is poor. To me, you have someone like that, he doesn't get $17m. *YES*, he was an elite hitter and a proven one at that. Oakland offered $16m/yr x 6 yrs, but not a no-trade. The Yanks countered with $17.1m x 7 yrs and a no-trade, so that's why he is a Yankee until 2008.

In light of the steroids nonsense and his lack of overall offense right now, I'd have preferred the Yanks let either the A's or the Cards (who'd wanted him to replace McGwire, but reluctantly took Tino) have him. We could've had David Ortiz. If you're going with a guy who can hit but can't run, then that's your guy. Keep Tino and Nick Johnson.

[Mattingly]

Kind of hard to throw 200 innings with a torn labrum.
So that's what happened to him. Sorry about that. I knew he had to have some kind of injury. I just haven't followed him much, since Zito was getting more press.
Ichiro Suzuki... "overrated"?
guaranteed +200hits, .350AVG .390OBP, .431SLG, cannon arm with solid fielding and great speed.. overrated? He gets games going, the best leadoff in the game in the majors.

He should be getting 20M per year and that would still not be enough.
Are you reciting his 2007 stats or his career stats? He's hit .350 3 times, but 4 times he hasn't. His career BA is .333, but he got .351 in 2007. His career OBP is .379, which is pretty low for an "elite" player. He steals a lot, but if you're telling me that he's the best leadoff hitter out there, then that's debatable. Shouldn't his OBP be in the low .400s instead?

If he'd walked a few more times, his OBP could easily be .425.

I don't know about $20m. He's very good, but when you say beyond this, like $20m isn't enough, then I think you've shown him to be overrated. Money like that doesn't grow on trees.

[ChrisLDuncan]

Kind of hard to throw 200 innings with a torn labrum.

That and his velocity was down durring the second half of last season. The book still isn't written on this deal yet.

[Mattingly]

Ichiro was 4th in MLB in Win Shares last year.

Just because he's overrated doesn't mean he's not still great!

In fact, Ichiro is worth $20M even in an off year. Is there another player in the league who singlehandedly opens up a market of over a hundred million people?
I'd agree he would very likely get $20m. His defense, baserunning skills (including knowing when to run, not just speed) and hitting make him a much-desired player. Only since he's stayed with Seattle has his salary been kept relatively low.

I think that Seattle could get quite a few players for him if they'd wanted to trade him. His agent could always point to the Torii Hunter contract as to his value.

I think that he's more productive in RF than CF, since he was in the top 2 or 3 out there. I still think he's overrated, but if he could walk some more, I would think less of this. I guess that's not his game.

[Erik Bedard]

Ichiro is indeed more valuable economically than he is on the field. He has probably been the most overrated player in baseball since he came into the league.

Agreed. While he may be worth his contract, he's still probably among the most overrated players in the game.

Ichiro Suzuki... "overrated"?
guaranteed +200hits, .350AVG .390OBP, .431SLG, cannon arm with solid fielding and great speed.. overrated? He gets games going, the best leadoff in the game in the majors.

He should be getting 20M per year and that would still not be enough.

Those numbers are hardly guaranteed. He had perhaps his second best year in 2007, and he'll be 34 next year. The common fan thinks that he's among the ten best players in the game, and he's obviously not, so how do you say that he's not overrated?

A while back, I took Ichiro's stats and counted an infield hit as about 80% of a hit, and Ichiro's OPS+ went down to, IIRC, 109 -- solid, but not superstar level.

There are about 1,000 threads discussing Ichiro. The vast majority of posters see him as extremely overrated. I'm not going to go into great lengths here to discuss it. If you want to see my opinion(and the opinion of others) on this subject there are plenty of threads which discuss Ichiro.

Ditto. If you want to create a new thread, go ahead. It'll probably start a pretty fierce argument between the Mariners fanboys who think he can do no wrong, and people like me who think he's little better than the average offensive player, and is among the three most overrated players today. But let's not do that here.

[plask_stirlac]

Ichiro Suzuki... "overrated"?
guaranteed +200hits, .350AVG .390OBP, .431SLG, cannon arm with solid fielding and great speed.. overrated? He gets games going, the best leadoff in the game in the majors.

He should be getting 20M per year and that would still not be enough.

Only one of those number stats is "guaranteed".

[plask_stirlac]

I'd rather pay that to a left handed pitcher who has never missed a start and also who was above average in the AL, then a CF who's declining.

Zito is showing more decline off of his worst season, showing more decline.. Hunter had one of his two best seasons and has been consistent, he just missed a lot of time from 04-06.

The problem is having Hunter on the books in 2011 and 2012 but the Angels are biting the bullet. We're basically projecting decline and he might not (see: Trevor Hoffman, Allen Iverson)

[Old Sweater]

Wow. First Matthews, then Pierre, then Ichiro, now Hunter, next Andruw Jones. Overrated CFers getting overpaid.

Juan Perre doesn't belong on that overrated list either. The Dodgers got what they paid for.


Year Ag Tm Lg G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS BB SO BA OBP SLG *OPS+ TB SH SF IBB HBP GDP


162 Game Avg 662 97 200 24 10 2 45 54 18 40 40 .301 .348 .374 84 248 13 2 1 8 8


2007 29 LAD NL 162 668 96 196 24 8 0 41 64 15 33 37 .293 .331 .353 75 236 20 2 0 6 10

[ChrisLDuncan]

Zito is showing more decline off of his worst season, showing more decline.. Hunter had one of his two best seasons and has been consistent, he just missed a lot of time from 04-06.

The problem is having Hunter on the books in 2011 and 2012 but the Angels are biting the bullet. We're basically projecting decline and he might not (see: Trevor Hoffman, Allen Iverson)

He has a career .324 OBP. A career high of .337 even if he stays average he still isn't that good. The other team in LA should one up the Angels in acquiring over the hill crappy CFs and trade away Clayton Kershaw for Johnny Damon

[Erik Bedard]

Juan Perre doesn't belong on that overrated list either. The Dodgers got what they paid for.

Really? He had his worst year since 2002, and got paid an egregious amount for it. He has only been an above average hitter for one season in his career, yet because he's fast and gets a lot of singles, the casual fan thinks he's great.

[digglahhh]

Mattingly, Ichiro does get about $20M a year, he signed a 5 yr, $90M extension last year. Basically, the same deal that Hunter got.

[dl4060]

That's a whole 'nother bag of worms you've opened up. We had Tino at the time, and Giambi was an offensive upgrade to Tino. In fact, Tino refused to sign with another team until the Giambi deal was finalized. That's how faithful he was to the Yankee organization. Even those who'd wanted Giambi or were on the fence had to love a guy like that.

The problem is that Giambi's bat is great, but his foot speed is lousy and his defense is poor. To me, you have someone like that, he doesn't get $17m. *YES*, he was an elite hitter and a proven one at that. Oakland offered $16m/yr x 6 yrs, but not a no-trade. The Yanks countered with $17.1m x 7 yrs and a no-trade, so that's why he is a Yankee until 2008.

In light of the steroids nonsense and his lack of overall offense right now, I'd have preferred the Yanks let either the A's or the Cards (who'd wanted him to replace McGwire, but reluctantly took Tino) have him. We could've had David Ortiz. If you're going with a guy who can hit but can't run, then that's your guy. Keep Tino and Nick Johnson.

I don't have a problem with offense-only guys getting huge contracts, as long as the offense is worth it. Bonds did not have much too offer besides offense to the Giants. I think 18m /year was a huge bargain for what they got from 01-04, not bringing up the elephant in the room. I'm not saying Giambi is in that class, but he was an absolutely monstrous offensive player. He had been the best player in the AL over the last two years when the Yankees signed him. If he had gone on producing at an 00-02 level I don't think anyone could have criticized the signing, regardless of what he did with his glove. Obviously that did not happen, so in hindsight it was not a good move. I think it is astronomically better than the Torri Hunter signing. Giambi may only have been good with the bat, but he was still incredibly valuable when the Yankees signed him.

[dl4060]

A while back, I took Ichiro's stats and counted an infield hit as about 80% of a hit, and Ichiro's OPS+ went down to, IIRC, 109 -- solid, but not superstar level.

.

Thanks for doing that. I've always been curious about how much his infield hits added to his game.

[Mattingly]

Mattingly, Ichiro does get about $20M a year, he signed a 5 yr, $90M extension last year. Basically, the same deal that Hunter got.
The only reason I can see that happening is because Hunter switched teams, so no hometown discount.

I remember Ichiro Suzuki saying he wasn't looking to break anyone's bank, but he'd wanted to be paid his worth. Seemed more courtesy than the "don't disrespect me" that Pedro did with the Red Sox.

At least I can easily say that Ichiro Suzuki is well worth that price. Overrated or not to some, he's obviously got a high value.

Interesting thing about him from what I remember was once when he was on 2B at Yankee Stadium. They brought in a new pitcher to go after someone. He sat on 2B just staring at the reliever as he'd thrown a few off the hill. It was like he was stalking his prey, to see how he'd go after that guy next. Everyone else stands on 2B and chats with the fielders. Him, he stared and examined. Weird.

Now when the heck are you gonna jump headfirst into the Johan Santana thread and let us know what the Mets will offer the Twins to get him?

[Mattingly]

A while back, I took Ichiro's stats and counted an infield hit as about 80% of a hit, and Ichiro's OPS+ went down to, IIRC, 109 -- solid, but not superstar level.
All depends. If there's a guy on 2B, an infield hit won't score him. If the 3Bman or SS throws to 1B, he'll advance. I understand that many of his infield hits went to 3B.

I've seen him hit a tailor-made RBI hit that was lobbed over the 2Bman's head, so he's obviously got very good aim. If he has trouble getting a hit otherwise, I'm fine. I just think that if his team needs a run, then adding some power to the hit isn't such a bad thing.

I also think that for him to be elite, his OBP should be in the .400-.425 range, not the .390 range. If he did this and increased the number of walks, he could be in the .450 range for OBP.

[Mattingly]

I don't have a problem with offense-only guys getting huge contracts, as long as the offense is worth it. Bonds did not have much too offer besides offense to the Giants. I think 18m /year was a huge bargain for what they got from 01-04, not bringing up the elephant in the room. I'm not saying Giambi is in that class, but he was an absolutely monstrous offensive player. He had been the best player in the AL over the last two years when the Yankees signed him. If he had gone on producing at an 00-02 level I don't think anyone could have criticized the signing, regardless of what he did with his glove. Obviously that did not happen, so in hindsight it was not a good move. I think it is astronomically better than the Torri Hunter signing. Giambi may only have been good with the bat, but he was still incredibly valuable when the Yankees signed him.
Around the time Giambi was signed, nobody even knew who David Ortiz was. If they'd said "Papi" as the DH, you'd have thought of Edgar Martinez instead.

I'll give you that the Giambi signing couldn't have been complained about too much, but on another board, we had a whole subboard just on who plays 1B. It's like how A-Rod took on a life of its own, the "Giambi or Tino" thing was just as bad. It became hilarious, in that this was all everyone was talking about. Threads and threads about this for a subforum on 1B.

Right now, I think that if you've got a big-bodied guy with poor defense and so-so speed, then you can give him a 5-year deal with an option for a 6th. When the A's give him 6 years, the Yanks had to match this. I think that if he'd been given an option for a 7th year, then he could've just gotten the buyout right now. That would've been the easiest decision right now.

David Ortiz is also big-bodied (even bigger than Giambi), but would he get a 7-year deal? I doubt this very much, even if he were 3-4 years younger.

Then the steroids language that was removed from the contract, at the insistance of his agent. It meant that the Yanks couldn't release him because he'd used steroids. Sometimes I just wish that another team would've picked him up instead of us.

[plask_stirlac]

He has a career .324 OBP. A career high of .337 even if he stays average he still isn't that good. The other team in LA should one up the Angels in acquiring over the hill crappy CFs and trade away Clayton Kershaw for Johnny Damon

Maintaining an average level of performance (or doing better) is not declining.

Disappointing?

[Westlake]

The Angels may have money, but they still have a limit. Paying that much for a below-average hitter and slightly above-average fielder is not a good move. It's pretty insane, in fact.

I'm glad the Rangers can't make the stupid signing I thought they would, now. Thank you, Angels!

You and many other here keep on calling him average, and citing his career OPS+ as proof. Why does what he did 6 years ago matter when giving him a contract TODAY. He put up a 122 OPS+ this past year, and a 113 OPS+ the year before, neither of which are average, or even slightly above average. You think the Angels are paying him for his career numbers, even though his last 2 years have been two of his best? Riight...

He may not have deserved a gold glove this past year, but he's still plenty good defensively, if you actually watch him play. He's also good on the basepaths too.

Is he going to be worth 18 mil a year in the last couple years of his contract? Probably not. But is ANYONE that is signing long-term deals going to be worth what they are getting at the end of their contracts? Probably not. It's just the way it goes now.

Every time a new guy signs a contract there is this big uproar "Meche for 55 million, OMG thats the worst deal ever!" or "Cordero for 44 million, the Reds are so stupid, worst deal ever!". That's just the way the market is nowadays, and it's probably going to keep on getting more and more lucrative. I really don't see what the big deal is and why everyone keeps acting so surprised.

A proven commodity at a premium position is worth a lot of money to teams.

[digglahhh]

Good post, Westlake.

Tori Hunter is a good player - an upgrade over what most teams have in CF.

Even by free agent contract standards, he's not worth 5/90 though, I think you agree with that.

The thing I don't get is when people parade around 100-ish OPS+es to say that a player isn't anything special, when the player also plays a premium defensive position at a high level.

League average offense from a GG caliber CF combines to be a very good player.

I hear this about Reyes too - he's an above average SS who leads the league in stolen bases every year. A player like Reyes is an MVP candidate if he produces at about 130ish in the OPS+ department, so being slightly over a hundred is pretty damn good!

[The_Leff_Fielder]

Mistake? Not at all. Great move by the Angels.

http://www.offinlefffield.com/?p=10

[insanefishpossay]

Mistake? Not at all. Great move by the Angels.

http://www.offinlefffield.com/?p=10

...Do you care to elaborate, or is this just a form of advertising for your website?

[The_Leff_Fielder]

...Do you care to elaborate, or is this just a form of advertising for your website?I don't think a little shameless promotion is so awful. :dance

In seriousness, though, I posted the link because I felt I explained it better and in more detail there than I could here without a massive copy-paste. My claim is that the Angels had everything going for them in 2007 last year, except power. They had the pitching, the speed, the defense. They played a National League style of ball and kept opponents on their toes. Now they've added the one thing they lacked. If they could win a division title while being 27th in the majors in home runs, think what they can do with a little added power.

[SamtheBravesFan]

Hunter's slugging isn't significantly bigger on the road, and my guess is that it's harder to hit home runs indoors. I suppose he could keep up what he's doing in Anaheim.

I just wouldn't pay that much for it.

[Mattingly]

I don't think a little shameless promotion is so awful. :dance

In seriousness, though, I posted the link because I felt I explained it better and in more detail there than I could here without a massive copy-paste. My claim is that the Angels had everything going for them in 2007 last year, except power. They had the pitching, the speed, the defense. They played a National League style of ball and kept opponents on their toes. Now they've added the one thing they lacked. If they could win a division title while being 27th in the majors in home runs, think what they can do with a little added power.
I'll likely discuss this with you privately once I get the full information on the BBF Forum Policy. In either case, just discuss the topic at hand and we'll be fine.

Please reply via PM if you'd like to further this discussion.

[dl4060]

Good post, Westlake.

Tori Hunter is a good player - an upgrade over what most teams have in CF.

Even by free agent contract standards, he's not worth 5/90 though, I think you agree with that.

The thing I don't get is when people parade around 100-ish OPS+es to say that a player isn't anything special, when the player also plays a premium defensive position at a high level.

League average offense from a GG caliber CF combines to be a very good player.

I hear this about Reyes too - he's an above average SS who leads the league in stolen bases every year. A player like Reyes is an MVP candidate if he produces at about 130ish in the OPS+ department, so being slightly over a hundred is pretty damn good!

I think a centerfielder with GG defense and 110 ops+ is a good player, maybe very good. I look at centerfield as being in the middle of the spectrum defensively, about even with 3B, ahead of the other outfield spots and first. It is a step below second, and a couple of steps below short. A corner outfielder should be at least 110, a centerfielder at least 100 in my mind. I don't think a CF with a 100 ops+ and GG defense is all that special. A good player, yes, just not someone I would describe as special. Such a player is a long way from a superstar. I was very glad Ellsbury played as well as he did in the WS, as part of me was terrified the Red Sox would go after Hunter. I think David Ortiz has been a far more valuable player than Torri Hunter over the last few years, I feel the same way about Giambi when he is on the field. I would be indifferent to Torri Hunter at 4/50, I still think that would be overpaying. 5/90 really is a joke, unless he gets better.



I would rather have Coco Crisp at 3/year than Torri Hunter at 18/year. To me there is not 15 million of difference between the two.

[philkid3]

I have not at all tried to say Hunter isn't very good. And he had a clearly above average year offensively in '07, yes. But I dont' expect that to be his norm, it's not that highly above average, he's not playing THAT premium a position, and his defense is not great and likely to decline.

A good player worth having? Yes, absolutely. The problem is not signing Torii Hunter, it's the money they paid him. Particularly when there is no shortage in the market this off season.

[The_Leff_Fielder]

Hunter's slugging isn't significantly bigger on the road, and my guess is that it's harder to hit home runs indoors. I suppose he could keep up what he's doing in Anaheim.

I just wouldn't pay that much for it.I see what you're saying, and you have a valid point. But the Angels have money to spare. They're one of the highest paid teams in the game. Furthermore, the more a team needs something, the more they're willing to spend on it. Simple economics. Carlos Silva and Kyle Lohse are going to earn up to $10 million next year, and they're back of the rotation guys, but fans will applaud their teams for signing them. Why? Pitching is in short supply and high demand. The Angels urgently needed a slugger. So did they overpay? Depends on what standard you're looking at.

[Kotch]

If we signed David Forst or DePodesta it would have been the best move in franchise history. Yet Moreno just hires the most convienant guy and he goes out and makes possibly the worst signing in Angels history.

[Westlake]

If we signed David Forst or DePodesta it would have been the best move in franchise history. Yet Moreno just hires the most convienant guy and he goes out and makes possibly the worst signing in Angels history.

It would PROBABLY be a good idea to actually wait and see what happens before anyone considers this the worst move in Angels OR baseball history. What happens if Torii has 5 good years? A lot of talk before he even plays one game.

I was pissed about the Sox signing Lugo (turns out, I might not be wrong on that one), but I didn't call for Theo's head because, hey, it might work out.

[Kotch]

It would PROBABLY be a good idea to actually wait and see what happens before anyone considers this the worst move in Angels OR baseball history. What happens if Torii has 5 good years? A lot of talk before he even plays one game.

I was pissed about the Sox signing Lugo (turns out, I might not be wrong on that one), but I didn't call for Theo's head because, hey, it might work out.

If Julio Lugo died I would still trade Torii Hunter for him.

[SamtheBravesFan]

If Julio Lugo died I would still trade Torii Hunter for him.

And this, folks, is a vote of "no confidence". ;)

[PJ-34]

Wow that is pretty...bad. Hunter is an awesome player but 90 mill for 5 years...yikes.

[Westlake]

If Julio Lugo died I would still trade Torii Hunter for him.

An the award for the most ridiculous statement of the year goes to.....

Please tell me how Lugo is better than Hunter on his best day.

Excuse me while I thank God that you are not my team's GM.

[Kotch]

An the award for the most ridiculous statement of the year goes to.....

Please tell me how Lugo is better than Hunter on his best day.

Excuse me while I thank God that you are not my team's GM.

He makes less money.

The Angels have Angels have Anderson, Rivera, Willits, Guerrero, Matthews and Figgins. I would pay a bat boy $8 M a year for three years instead of paying Hunter $18 M a year for five years. I would love for the Angels to swap Hunter for Lugo, but the Red Sox and their ungodly payroll would undoubtedly not agree to that regardless of nearly any situation their outfield or middle infield could be in.

[Francoeurstein]

The Angels may have money, but they still have a limit. Paying that much for a below-average hitter and slightly above-average fielder is not a good move. It's pretty insane, in fact.

I'm glad the Rangers can't make the stupid signing I thought they would, now. Thank you, Angels!

He's a good hitter just because he has a career .324 OBP doesn't mean he's below average, saying this he's not outstanding. And his fielding ability is phenomenal and you say it's above average. You are trying to say Torii Hunter is not who he really is. I do believe it was a dumb signing but he is not a bad baseball player.

[dl4060]

An the award for the most ridiculous statement of the year goes to.....

Please tell me how Lugo is better than Hunter on his best day.

Excuse me while I thank God that you are not my team's GM.

Somehow I think he was joking a bit. I would rather have Lugo because of his salary. I would probably not have a bat boy making 8 a year than TH making 18, but I would rather have a bb making 1 a year than TH making 18.

[Westlake]

Somehow I think he was joking a bit. I would rather have Lugo because of his salary. I would probably not have a bat boy making 8 a year than TH making 18, but I would rather have a bb making 1 a year than TH making 18.

I hope he was joking about the 8M bat boy!

The salary thing is understandable, but I would have paid 18 million for Torii Hunter's last 2 years over 8 million for Lugo's.

[Walt Zink]

awful deal. 18$ mil a year for a man who is living solely on a defensive reputation a la andruw jones. hunter is a better hitter average-wise with lesser power, but both have past awards glowing about their defensive prowess.

he's 32, which puts him at 37 by contract's end. i see him having a couple of 25/90/.285 seasons, but that isn't worth the money he's being paid. that signing along with the trade of cabrera makes me scratch my head. rumor has it they're also going after miguel cabrera, which means chone figgins will likely be playing the outfield. so vlad, figgins, and hunter in your outfield? vlad has maybe 2 decent fielding years left in him before he hits DH status, and thankfully he's put up such monster numbers to this point which deems him a HOFer in my mind (sans his disappointing postseason stats!)

[dl4060]

I hope he was joking about the 8M bat boy!

The salary thing is understandable, but I would have paid 18 million for Torii Hunter's last 2 years over 8 million for Lugo's.

I agree for 2007, for 06 it would be borderline. I think Hunter was better, all things considered, I just don't know if he was 10 mill better for 2006. I give Lugo far more defensive value because he plays shortstop, and he was an ok hitter in 2006. I don't think Hunter was 10 million better in 06, maybe 7.

I don't like the Lugo signing either. I think he is overpayed. If he loses the ability to play short he does nothing for the team. I think Lugo's 03-06 career would have been worth about 8/year for 4 years, if someone had signed him before 2003.

[TonyStarks]

Torii Hunter needs to get his Agent the best Christmas gift ever...

[philkid3]

Aahahahaha! (http://www.latimes.com/sports/baseball/mlb/angels/la-spw-angels29nov29,1,3225398.story?coll=la-headlines-sports-mlb-angels&ctrack=1&cset=true)

"I would have signed for less," said Hunter, who had five-year offers, ranging from $70 million to $75 million, from the White Sox, Rangers and Royals, and the day before the Angels offer dined with Texas Rangers owner Tom Hicks.

What if the Angels offered less than those other teams?

"I still would have taken it!" Hunter said.

[Westlake]

You seriously believe him, philkid? Accept less money? Extremely doubtful.

[philkid3]

You seriously believe him, philkid? Accept less money? Extremely doubtful.

I'm not sure what you're saying. If no team had offered him 90 million would he have signed for 75? Yes, I think so.

Obviously he took 90 because that's what the Angels offered.

[Westlake]

I'm not sure what you're saying. If no team had offered him 90 million would he have signed for 75? Yes, I think so.

Obviously he took 90 because that's what the Angels offered.

It said "if the Angels had offered less than those other teams".

[philkid3]

It said "if the Angels had offered less than those other teams".

So it does.

Still, there's a long way between less than those teams and 90 million. Even if he wouldnt' REALLY have taken less money (which you and I don't know), seems they didn't need to pay him 90 million.