View Full Version : Beckett and Holliday
emaher29
11-20-2007, 06:31 PM
Im a diehard yankee fan at heart but must admit I think Josh Beckett was cheated out of the AL Cy Young. Here are the stats on Sabathia and Beckett
Sabathia- 19-7, 3.21 era, with 209 Ks
Beckett-20-7, 3.27 era, with 194 Ks
These stats may seem similar, but I think 20 games is an important feat to accomplish, and Beckett has been the first to do it in either league for the past 2 years.
Now lets get into Holliday and Rollins.
Holliday's average was 44 points higher, he hit six more home runs, had 43 more RBIs, but had 30 less stolen bases. What do you think?
DodgerBlue8188
11-20-2007, 06:38 PM
I disagree about the wins. Wins simply means your team scored enough runs. Coming from a team like the Redsox that is not hard to see. I know the Indians have a good offense too but just saying. Sabathia pitched like 20 or 40 more innings and still had a lower ERA. So in another 30 innings that Beckett would have pitched could have meant a higher era or a lower era, we'll never know.
emaher29
11-20-2007, 07:10 PM
i see your point, that is very true. like when randy johnson won 17 games for the yanks in 06 and had an era of 5.00
DodgerBlue8188
11-20-2007, 07:16 PM
i see your point, that is very true. like when randy johnson won 17 games for the yanks in 06 and had an era of 5.00
Right or when Nolan Ryan was 8 games and lost 16 and had an Era of 2 something back in the 80's. I just don't care about wins in terms of greatness. It does not separate the good pitchers from the great pitchers. Of course a guy who wins 20 games is probably a good pitcher. But you really can't assume if he is any better than a guy on a losing team who only wins 10.
Right or when Nolan Ryan was 8 games and lost 16 and had an Era of 2 something back in the 80's. I just don't care about wins in terms of greatness. It does not separate the good pitchers from the great pitchers. Of course a guy who wins 20 games is probably a good pitcher. But you really can't assume if he is any better than a guy on a losing team who only wins 10.
Like Gil Meche. He was amazing this year, but the Royals just couldn't score any runs for him. 10-13 record.
Charger567
11-20-2007, 08:19 PM
Wins usually don't mean much, but I think in this case it does. Beckett won 20 games, without much more run support than Sabathia. The sox as a team only scored like 50 more runs than the Indians all season. Besides, Beckett was injured, and would have won even more.
Charger567
11-20-2007, 08:20 PM
Also, can someone explain to me why it says Beckett's ERA+ is higher than Sabathia if Sabathia had a lower ERA?
Old Sweater
11-20-2007, 10:51 PM
Wins usually don't mean much, but I think in this case it does. Beckett won 20 games, without much more run support than Sabathia. The sox as a team only scored like 50 more runs than the Indians all season. Besides, Beckett was injured, and would have won even more.
Beckett had 6.42 run support compared to Sabathia's 5.10 a game.
The Sox only scored 50 more runs in the season, but they ALWAYS rallied behind Beckett, much more so than Matsuzaka and Wakefield and Schilling.
And much more than the Indians rallied behind Sabathia, really.
STLCards2
11-21-2007, 07:14 AM
Also, can someone explain to me why it says Beckett's ERA+ is higher than Sabathia if Sabathia had a lower ERA?
1.ERA+ includes park adjustments.
2. 50 runs in a season is almost .3 runs per game more - which is statisticaly significant.
3. Not only Beckett recieve 1.3 runs more per game in support (which is substantial), he threw 40 fewer innings, which is equivilent to 5-6 games. That means C.C. pitched 5-6 games worth more at a similar level to Beckett, while recieving 1.3 fewer runs, but only finished with 1 fewer win.
4.As far as excusing Beckett's IP total (which didn't even crack the top 10) because of his injury- staying on the field and being healthy are the single most important things a pitcher can do. If Beckett was injured, this should count against him, not in favor of him.
5.Also, wins are not as important as many think, but there is still a .7 or so correlation between wins and ERA. I would say about 99% of the time, a guy with around 20 wins will have had a far superior season in reallity than a guy with 10 wins-regardless of the quality of team they played for. A high win total is acctuly a better indication of pitching ability than many give it credit for. Of course there are still many other measures which better represent pitching ability.
6. What evidence is ther that Sabathia didn't "rally" around his Indians teamates? What does this mean in practical terms exaclty?
KCGHOST
11-21-2007, 07:21 AM
Im a diehard yankee fan at heart but must admit I think Josh Beckett was cheated out of the AL Cy Young.
Cheated?? Maybe some voters voted differently from how you would have done, but they didn't cheat. You can see from the posts above just about all of us disagree with you.
brett
11-21-2007, 07:48 AM
Im a diehard yankee fan at heart but must admit I think Josh Beckett was cheated out of the AL Cy Young. Here are the stats on Sabathia and Beckett
Sabathia- 19-7, 3.21 era, with 209 Ks
Beckett-20-7, 3.27 era, with 194 Ks
These stats may seem similar, but I think 20 games is an important feat to accomplish, and Beckett has been the first to do it in either league for the past 2 years.
Now lets get into Holliday and Rollins.
Holliday's average was 44 points higher, he hit six more home runs, had 43 more RBIs, but had 30 less stolen bases. What do you think?
Beckett was lucky to finish #2. He probably was statistically the 4th best starter in the AL this year. Sabathia had virtually the same ERA+ and 40 more innings. That's 20% more innings.
Carmona and Lackey each had better ERA+ AND more innings than Beckett.
As for Rollins, the voters have no clue what makes a player the real MVP, but Rollins was not one of the 50 worst choices in history. He is probably just within the margin of error of current stats to determine the MVP.
Rags2Riches
11-21-2007, 08:05 AM
I don't have an issue w/Rollins winning the MVP since he did have a awesome season......(played every game, hr's, sb's, db's...and his GG) but I certainly do think that Holliday was looked down upon because of the Coor's Field theory.....his avg, hr's, rbi's were awesome as well......either way between the 2 you couldn't go wrong as the winner imo
emaher29
11-22-2007, 09:08 AM
Cheated?? Maybe some voters voted differently from how you would have done, but they didn't cheat. You can see from the posts above just about all of us disagree with you.
By cheated i mean that he should have won. the voters voted how they wanted. i cant change that and i dont care. maybe you can find better things to do with your life than searching forums for grammatical errors and making fun of people.
Solrac
11-22-2007, 12:58 PM
I Dont Think Beckett Got Cheated...Sabathia Was The Better Pitcher...The Cy Young Isnt For The One With The Most Wins...Its for The Best Pitcher In The League And IMO It Was C.C.
cosmo34
11-24-2007, 09:48 AM
CC was the Cy Young winner during the regular season, but it's too bad the ALCS performances didn't count for the voting. I think we all saw who is the better pitcher then.
BosoxOrioles69
11-24-2007, 11:05 AM
Im a diehard yankee fan at heart but must admit I think Josh Beckett was cheated out of the AL Cy Young. Here are the stats on Sabathia and Beckett
Sabathia- 19-7, 3.21 era, with 209 Ks
Beckett-20-7, 3.27 era, with 194 Ks
These stats may seem similar, but I think 20 games is an important feat to accomplish, and Beckett has been the first to do it in either league for the past 2 years.
Now lets get into Holliday and Rollins.
Holliday's average was 44 points higher, he hit six more home runs, had 43 more RBIs, but had 30 less stolen bases. What do you think?
I agree about the Holliday one, but although I'm a Redsox fan, I must say Beckett wasn't robbed at all. 19 wins and 20 wins barely has any difference. Sabathia has lower ERA and way 15 more strikeouts.
FatAngel
11-25-2007, 09:28 AM
Right or when Nolan Ryan was 8 games and lost 16 and had an Era of 2 something back in the 80's. I just don't care about wins in terms of greatness. It does not separate the good pitchers from the great pitchers. Of course a guy who wins 20 games is probably a good pitcher. But you really can't assume if he is any better than a guy on a losing team who only wins 10.
Yup.
However, vice versa, in my opinion, losses tell something. You have to be a pretty good pitcher to rack up 20 losses in season.
If you were not, youŽd never get the opportunity to get this far.
BoofBonser26
11-25-2007, 10:07 AM
6. What evidence is ther that Sabathia didn't "rally" around his Indians teamates? What does this mean in practical terms exaclty?
I know this was a rhetorical question, but speaking as a diehard Indians fan, I can tell you that Sabathia was the team leader and instrumental in all that "clubhouse chemistry" stuff. Doesn't mean anything about the Cy, but he still did it.
plask_stirlac
11-25-2007, 10:30 AM
Beckett was the best in the league before an inexplicable shelling vs. the normally hapless Twins offense, the same one Sabathia feasted on about 14 times but we can't fault him for getting it done. Logically Beckett might have had 8 shutout innings, but oh well.
Carmona was better than either but it was really close, so not significantly better.
it's too bad the ALCS performances didn't count for the voting. I think we all saw who is the better pitcher then.
A 7 game series should be used to decide who is the better player that season? That would be funny for a hitter, but for a pitcher its hilarious.
Beckett had a very good year, but so did CC. They were close on stats but CC pitched more innings and had less run support, so i would say that the cy young went to the right guy this year.
-Kyle-
11-26-2007, 12:15 PM
I loved the year Beckett had, but I think Sabathia was pretty much the better pitcher.
Captain Cold Nose
11-26-2007, 12:32 PM
By cheated i mean that he should have won. the voters voted how they wanted. i cant change that and i dont care. maybe you can find better things to do with your life than searching forums for grammatical errors and making fun of people.
Considering how greatly KCGHOST contributes to this site for as long as he has, he has a place here well beyond what you seem to believe.
As he said, though, the majority of posters in this thread disagree, Sabbathia was more deserving than Beckett. Nothing grammatical about that.
Westlake
11-26-2007, 12:40 PM
Beckett was lucky to finish #2. He probably was statistically the 4th best starter in the AL this year. Sabathia had virtually the same ERA+ and 40 more innings. That's 20% more innings.
Carmona and Lackey each had better ERA+ AND more innings than Beckett.
As for Rollins, the voters have no clue what makes a player the real MVP, but Rollins was not one of the 50 worst choices in history. He is probably just within the margin of error of current stats to determine the MVP.
Except that Beckett was hurt way more by his home park than pretty much any other pitcher in contention for the Cy Young.
Home: 110 IP, 4.17 ERA, even though he had 112 strike outs
Away: 90 IP, 2.18 ERA
Sabathia...
Home: 135 IP, 3.13 ERA
Away: 105 IP, 3.32 ERA
Carmona:
Home: 112 IP, 3.36 ERA
Away: 102 IP, 2.73 ERA
Lackey's is similar to Carmona's.
I've brought this up many times, but no one addresses it, while splits are the FIRST thing mentioned about Holliday (rightfully so).
So no, I don't believe he's "lucky" to have gotten 2nd. Sabathia is lucky that everyone seems to be ignoring this. It's really not that hard to look up.
dl4060
11-26-2007, 02:59 PM
I probably would have voted for Beckett, but it is very close, and being a Red Sox fan probably does influence me here. I don't think there was much of a difference between the top few candidates here, so I can't really be upset at any of them winning. Much like the 2006 AL MVP, there were several good candidates, any of whom could have won. In 2006, I think Ortiz, Jeter, Dye and Mauer all had good arguments. I think Morneau winning it was wrong, but I cannot say any individual player was robbed, because I don't think any of them were head and shoulders above the rest, the way Arod was this year.
STLCards2
11-26-2007, 05:11 PM
Except that Beckett was hurt way more by his home park than pretty much any other pitcher in contention for the Cy Young.
Home: 110 IP, 4.17 ERA, even though he had 112 strike outs
Away: 90 IP, 2.18 ERA
Sabathia...
Home: 135 IP, 3.13 ERA
Away: 105 IP, 3.32 ERA
Carmona:
Home: 112 IP, 3.36 ERA
Away: 102 IP, 2.73 ERA
Lackey's is similar to Carmona's.
I've brought this up many times, but no one addresses it, while splits are the FIRST thing mentioned about Holliday (rightfully so).
So no, I don't believe he's "lucky" to have gotten 2nd. Sabathia is lucky that everyone seems to be ignoring this. It's really not that hard to look up.
This is true, but this is already factored in ERA+, of which they were almost the same. The difference is certainly not enough to make up for throwing 40 innings, or 20% less than C.C. I would like to see how man starters have ever won the Cy Young without cracking the top 10 in IP. Sutcliff comes to mind. Anybody have any idea?
Westlake
11-26-2007, 11:15 PM
This is true, but this is already factored in ERA+, of which they were almost the same. The difference is certainly not enough to make up for throwing 40 innings, or 20% less than C.C. I would like to see how man starters have ever won the Cy Young without cracking the top 10 in IP. Sutcliff comes to mind. Anybody have any idea?
No, this is not already factored in ERA+. If it was, Sabathia and Beckett wouldnt be so close in it. Their ERAs are nearly the same, and so are their ERA+, which should not be the case.