Is Rollins' season one of the greatest ever? [Archive]

skyking162

11-20-2007, 01:27 PM

Ignoring the fact that he wasn't at all deserving of the MVP, wasn't at all deserving of the Gold Glove, doesn't deserve any credit for "leading" anybody, and didn't even lead the NL in extra-base hits while racking up all those 20s, then sure, Rollins had an all-time great season. Hell, why not a Nobel Peace Prize?

There's going to be a lot of Rollins bashing coming up, because he was nowhere near the best player in the NL. However, most people doing the bashing do think he was a very good player. We just won't mention that fact often because he's so overrated.

ipitch

11-20-2007, 01:28 PM

Led a PHILLIES team to the playoffs (may be a talented team, but historically its hard to get the Phillies to the playoffs)

I don't know if he really LED a Phillies team to the playoffs, since ARod and his 2003 MVP and Gold Glove season couldn't even lead his team (the Rangers) out of last place. I think players get too much credit when their team makes the playoffs. It's the TEAM that makes the playoffs.

KCGHOST

11-20-2007, 01:34 PM

To me the writers boned this award. Rollins wasn't in the Top Five in the league in either win shares or VoRP. Looks like the second straight dubious award to a Philly.

He should send Thank You notes to those noted baseball sages John Kruk and Eric Young.

digglahhh

11-20-2007, 02:00 PM

Cosmetically, it was very nice. Lots of pretty accolades.

Going by the stated criteria is was a historically great season.

Of course, that is like going my records sold to determine that 50 Cent's first album was one of the greatest works of music ever.

A bunch of idiots who rarely make intelligent decisions chose to support something, some but I like to set the bar a bit higher.

Neilios

11-20-2007, 06:27 PM

NYMets523

11-20-2007, 06:35 PM

Absolutely not. He didn't deserve a single one of those awards.

nerfan

11-20-2007, 07:14 PM

I heard Rollins is due for an Oscar nomination soon. Beating out Denzel Washington in American Gangster with a home video of him farting on a lighter makes about as much sense as beating out Tulowitzki (GG) and Holliday (MVP).

I heard Rollins was also the first man on the moon, also, he was inducted into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame... by Tim McCarver. :rofl:

Chi

11-20-2007, 08:20 PM

I heard Rollins was also the first man on the moon, also, he was inducted into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame... by Tim McCarver. :rofl:

He also invented a fat-free brownie with an even more bitchin' flavor than the real thing.

SamtheBravesFan

11-20-2007, 08:50 PM

He also invented a fat-free brownie with an even more bitchin' flavor than the real thing.

:dance Hooray!

Rags2Riches

11-21-2007, 10:33 AM

wow alot of JRoll bashing going on in here no doubt......I think he had a great season (he probably won't be able to duplicate it again though) but to say the greatest season ever is placing to much on just what he did.....nowhere near the greatest season imho, for that feat to have been even thought of the Phillies would have had to win the WS to begin with, then he would have had to win WS MVP (which no doubt with all the LOVE he got from the press he would have :think:)......and then he would have had to hand deliever President Bush a Phillies jersey, which no doubt would have garned him the greatest season ever..........:rofl:

dgarza

11-21-2007, 10:44 AM

Anybody notice that Rollins also got a vote for the AL CY Award?

stejay

11-21-2007, 12:30 PM

Anybody notice that Rollins also got a vote for the AL CY Award?

What? :eek::rofl::rofl:

Neilios

11-21-2007, 02:45 PM

Anybody notice that Rollins also got a vote for the AL CY Award?

Not to mention his name will be etched on the Stanley Cup should the Flyers win it this year.

doane

11-21-2007, 06:18 PM

Rollins' season is only remotely impressive because of his counting stats. He set an all-time record for plate appearances and at bats. It was a career year, but doesn't approach greatest ever.

Granderson put up all the 20s with 100 less plate appearances and not being able to hit lefties at all.

mojorisin71

11-21-2007, 06:24 PM

Are we trying to make Rollins out to be baseball's version of Chuck Norris?

cardsfanatic

11-21-2007, 09:01 PM

In a word? No. People just make up crap to be impressed by it these days, I believe. "OMG, player x is the first dude to slide into home plate four time in a season and do a 360 toe tap on the dish WHILE also hitting 20 doubles and 10 triples!!!!!!."

Big f'n whoop.

Neilios

11-22-2007, 10:10 AM

Are we trying to make Rollins out to be baseball's version of Chuck Norris?

When the boogy man goes to sleep at night, he checks his closet for Jimmy Rollins. :rofl:

Ytown Tribe fan

11-22-2007, 10:42 AM

David Wright didn't get a single first-place vote. That tells you all you need to know about the voters this year, and nothing about Rollins.

Solrac

11-22-2007, 02:05 PM

Rollins Must Be Dissapointed For Not Winning The NL CY,AL MOY,AL 2B GG,NL C SS And The Nobel Peace Prize

plask_stirlac

11-22-2007, 02:49 PM

Yes, it was a historically great season. Rollins is getting a lot of hate, but he plays every inning and improves his play every year.

It was the best NL shortstop season since Larkin's prime, with the possible exception of Aurilia '01.

It was not historically fantastic/epic like A-Rod's year at 3B this year or 2007 or Putz this year or Santana in 2004, etc.

ChrisLDuncan

11-23-2007, 12:57 AM

Of course, that is like going my records sold to determine that 50 Cent's first album was one of the greatest works of music ever.

Lawl :rofl:

nerfan

11-24-2007, 11:29 AM

David Wright didn't get a single first-place vote. That tells you all you need to know about the voters this year, and nothing about Rollins.

What? That the supposed New York bias (after seeing Wright and Jeter going down questionable) is actually nonexistent? I guess ESPN would rather have it that way though.

ElHalo

11-24-2007, 11:34 AM

What? That the supposed New York bias (after seeing Wright and Jeter going down questionable) is actually nonexistent? I guess ESPN would rather have it that way though.

Me too on that. If there's such a New York bias, how do Jeter and Wright -- each the clearly deserving MVP -- go down two years in a row?

sturg1dj

11-24-2007, 11:48 AM

ElHalo

11-24-2007, 11:59 AM

um...because they didn't deserve it?

wow that was an easy answer.

if you don't believe there is no east coast bias, then you must live on the east coast...then I can't fault you.

heres the deal though....how do I know there is an east coast bias? Because I get more coverage of your teams then my teams. And not just when your teams are doing better....when the Tigers made it to the world series there was more on the Yankees than the Tigers

Having grown up in Detroit, I can tell you that the reason you get more Yankees and Red Sox coverage here is that people in the Northeast are OBSESSED with baseball in a way that people in other parts of the country just aren't. Like I said, I grew up in Detroit... and I can tell you that the average mid-July Yankees/Sox series gets people more pumped up than Michigan gets over an Ohio State game (which I grant you is the greatest rivalry in college sports). Some sports aren't that big here... nobody really cares about football nearly as much as they do in the midwest or south, and I've never met a single New Yorker who could name you three NASCAR drivers... but baseball is an absolute religion in the northeast. When the Sox and Yanks play in the playoffs (not that that's happened for a few years...) both cities basically grind to a halt for a week. If you think that there's just a general east coast sports bias, ask yourself how much you hear about the Jets or Giants as opposed to, say, the Colts or Packers.

That much being said, Wright and Jeter were pretty clearly the best choices in 2007 and 2006, respectively. And it's not just that they were the clear winners, but that both Rollins and Morneau were nowhere NEAR deserving of the award. Not that Win Shares are the be-all and end-all, of course, but...

2007 NL:
1. Wright, 34
2. Pujols, 32
3. Cabrera, 30
4. Holliday, 30
5. Ramirez, 29
6. Utley, 28
7. Rollins, 28
8. Fielder, 28

2006 AL:
1. Jeter, 33
2. Mauer, 31
3. Ortiz, 29
4. Ramirez, 29
5. Morneau, 27
6. Ibanez, 27

I could sit down and go on at length about why exactly Jeter and Wright deserved to win it, or why exactly Rollins and Morneau shouldn't have even been in the top 3, but that's a story for a different thread.

sturg1dj

11-24-2007, 12:08 PM

Having grown up in Detroit, I can tell you that the reason you get more Yankees and Red Sox coverage here is that people in the Northeast are OBSESSED with baseball in a way that people in other parts of the country just aren't. Like I said, I grew up in Detroit... and I can tell you that the average mid-July Yankees/Sox series gets people more pumped up than Michigan gets over an Ohio State game (which I grant you is the greatest rivalry in college sports). Some sports aren't that big here... nobody really cares about football nearly as much as they do in the midwest or south, and I've never met a single New Yorker who could name you three NASCAR drivers... but baseball is an absolute religion in the northeast. When the Sox and Yanks play in the playoffs (not that that's happened for a few years...) both cities basically grind to a halt for a week. If you think that there's just a general east coast sports bias, ask yourself how much you hear about the Jets or Giants as opposed to, say, the Colts or Packers.

That much being said, Wright and Jeter were pretty clearly the best choices in 2007 and 2006, respectively. And it's not just that they were the clear winners, but that both Rollins and Morneau were nowhere NEAR deserving of the award. Not that Win Shares are the be-all and end-all, of course, but...

2007 NL:
1. Wright, 34
2. Pujols, 32
3. Cabrera, 30
4. Holliday, 30
5. Ramirez, 29
6. Utley, 28
7. Rollins, 28
8. Fielder, 28

2006 AL:
1. Jeter, 33
2. Mauer, 31
3. Ortiz, 29
4. Ramirez, 29
5. Morneau, 27
6. Ibanez, 27

I could sit down and go on at length about why exactly Jeter and Wright deserved to win it, or why exactly Rollins and Morneau shouldn't have even been in the top 3, but that's a story for a different thread.

you must have grown up in detroit when the tigers were bad...which makes sense since I did too, and I would agree that baseball was not big when they were bad....so we have fairweather fans here....I admit it. The problem is, however, that when the Tigers got good the city and state went crazy for them.

the sports coverage shouldn't mirror the fans, but mirror what is going on in the league. But that is for another thread.

let me ask you something about win-shares. How many of Wright's win-shares came in the last couple of weeks?

ElHalo

11-24-2007, 12:22 PM

you must have grown up in detroit when the tigers were bad...which makes sense since I did too, and I would agree that baseball was not big when they were bad....so we have fairweather fans here....I admit it. The problem is, however, that when the Tigers got good the city and state went crazy for them.

Actually, the Tigers weren't bad when I was growing up. Trammell and Whitaker were local heros, Cecil Fielder hit 50 homers... it was a much better time for them than earlier in this decade. And still nobody really cared.

the sports coverage shouldn't mirror the fans, but mirror what is going on in the league. But that is for another thread.

I couldn't possibly disagree with this more. Rivalries are institutions of the fans, and it's basically axiomatic that news outlets, be they sports or otherwise, will cover that which the people most care about. Roger Federer is probably better at his sport than any single athlete since Don Bradman, but nobody really cares much about tennis any more (absolute shame in my opinion), so he gets very little coverage.

let me ask you something about win-shares. How many of Wright's win-shares came in the last couple of weeks?

Seeing as how he hit .352/.432/.602 in September, and his second best month after August, you can't really knock Wright for the Mets' collapse.

digglahhh

11-24-2007, 12:31 PM

let me ask you something about win-shares. How many of Wright's win-shares came in the last couple of weeks?

Oh, you mean when the Mets collapsed, and it had nothing to do with David Wright at all?

August: .394/.516/.657
September: .352/.432/.602

doane

11-24-2007, 12:54 PM

Oh, you mean when the Mets collapsed, and it had nothing to do with David Wright at all?

August: .394/.516/.657
September: .352/.432/.602

The role of one individual in a collapse or a comeback is nearly always drastically overstated.

Tom Glavine
August: 3.13 ERA
September: 6.10 ERA

El Duque
August: 36.2 innings, 4.17 ERA
September: 6.2 innings, 12.15 ERA

John Maine
July: 3.56 ERA
August: 6.32 ERA
September: 5.93

Jose Reyes
August: .272 .341 .392
September: .205 .279 .333

Team Pitching
April: 2.96 ERA
May: 3.73 ERA
June: 4.20 ERA
July: 4.50 ERA
August: 4.93 ERA
September: 5.14 ERA

I'll have to agree with you, David Wright's 138 point drop in OPS from 1.172 to 1.034 (which is the result of his BABIP drop from .423 to .344) was probably the main reason the Mets couldn't win.

sturg1dj

11-24-2007, 01:34 PM

maybe you shouldn't look at what David Wright did that made the Mets lose, but what did he do that made them win?

regardless of his numbers, they choked at the end.

so he hit .350 down the stretch, well if he would have hit .400 and they would have won and the Phillies not made the playoffs then Wright would have probably have won.

and guy who grew up in Detroit, the Tigers at that time were not good...they were ok, but never competed for a title. Those are the teams I grew up with too...my favorite player was Tony Phillips......and their best finish....3rd.

I went to games then, and I go to games now....totally different atmosphere.

I hadn't been to a sell-out until last season.

digglahhh

11-24-2007, 01:50 PM

maybe you shouldn't look at what David Wright did that made the Mets lose, but what did he do that made them win?

regardless of his numbers, they choked at the end.

so he hit .350 down the stretch, well if he would have hit .400 and they would have won and the Phillies not made the playoffs then Wright would have probably have won.

For the last two months of the season, Wright performed at approximately the level of Babe Ruth's career OPS. I don't know what the :shrug: you wanted him to do!

Yeah, if only he would have hit .400 down the stretch... like Rollins?

August: 296/.371/.487
September: .298/.333/.542

sturg1dj

11-24-2007, 02:08 PM

For the last two months of the season, Wright performed at approximately the level of Babe Ruth's career OPS. I don't know what the :shrug: you wanted him to do!

win games...

digglahhh

11-24-2007, 02:28 PM

win games...

You're right. He didn't pitch very well, I guess.

So, are all the Phillies better MVP candidates than Wright, since they won games down the stretch.

I wonder we could use Wright to pry Abraham Nunez loose.

Are you at all aware of how irrational your argument is?

Players are given a limited number of chances to help their teams win - in those opportunities, over the last two months of the season, Wright performed at the level of the greatest player of all time.

If only, he would have just hit a grand slam every time he came up (even when the bases were empty) and pitched every inning in September without giving up a single run, then maybe he could have been the MVP.

sturg1dj

11-24-2007, 02:35 PM

You're right. He didn't pitch very well, I guess.

So, are all the Phillies better MVP candidates than Wright, since they won games down the stretch.

I wonder we could use Wright to pry Abraham Nunez loose.

Are you at all aware of how irrational your argument is?

Players are given a limited number of chances to help their teams win - in those opportunities, over the last two months of the season, Wright performed at the level of the greatest player of all time.

If only, he would have just hit a grand slam every time he came up (even when the bases were empty) and pitched every inning in September without giving up a single run, then maybe he could have been the MVP.

yeah, God...I know how irrational my argument is...it is so irrational that the MVP voters agreed with me, and historically the MVP has been decided this way. People always complain that the MVP should be the best player in the league not the best player on the best team......but oh well, thats how it is

of course there are times this isn't the case. Ryan Howard for instance

for the case of Jeter not winning I would just point to Chicks Dig the Long ball. The idea that a homerun hitter does more than all other players is stupid but many, including many on this site, think its true.

digglahhh

11-24-2007, 03:01 PM

yeah, God...I know how irrational my argument is...it is so irrational that the MVP voters agreed with me, and historically the MVP has been decided this way. People always complain that the MVP should be the best player in the league not the best player on the best team......but oh well, thats how it is

Not the argument that Rollins deserved the MVP - which is a flawed argument to say the least, in its own right.

The argument that I refer to as ridiculous is that the Mets collapse should hurt Wright, when he was, in fact, nothing short of spectacular over that stretch.

David Wright did more than any player could ever be expected to do to help his team win games in the last two months of the season. The rest of the team, particularly the pitching staff (and Reyes) didn't do nearly enough.

sturg1dj

11-24-2007, 04:21 PM

the argument is why Wright did not deserve the mvp...and I say its because his team did not make the playoffs

....the collapse determined the teams perceived success. If they would have made the playoffs and the phillies did not then he would have won. Even if he performed just the same.

how you feel about the argument doesn't matter one bit, most voters look at team success....same for the heisman trophy.

I am just stating the facts

I know it sounded as though I thought that David Wright was the reason for the collapse, but I am not that stupid....but for me, maybe he could have done more

let me add, I spoke about the east coast bias...let me adjust that.....for baseball its a Yankees-Red Sox bias. The Mets are not in the same area, and they can thank the Yanks for that. To be honest, I had no idea what kind of season Wright was having until the collapse...and I did not know the type of season Rollins was having until he started approaching the 20-20-20-20 club.

for me, when I am complaining about the east coast bias, once again, its the Yankees-Red Sox bias.

this probably sounds like a big ramble......this is a quick break from me writing a lengthy paper

ElHalo

11-24-2007, 04:24 PM

for me, when I am complaining about the east coast bias, once again, its the Yankees-Red Sox bias.

Yet again, I'll reiterate that it's a matter of how deeply the fans care about that rivarly. The Army-Navy game is always a huge deal, regardless of the records of the parties.

sturg1dj

11-24-2007, 04:47 PM

Yet again, I'll reiterate that it's a matter of how deeply the fans care about that rivarly. The Army-Navy game is always a huge deal, regardless of the records of the parties.

I understand that....but let me try to be more clear

Yankees-Tampa Bay gets more coverage than Tiger games

ESPN leads with Yankees, no matter who they play

Westlake

11-24-2007, 05:13 PM

Me too on that. If there's such a New York bias, how do Jeter and Wright -- each the clearly deserving MVP -- go down two years in a row?

Um no. They were not both clearly deserving of the MVP. I wouldnt have voted for either of them. Mauer and Hanley for me. The supposed NY and BOS bias is so overblown, its hilarious. People need something to gripe about, I suppose.

Old Sweater

11-24-2007, 05:32 PM

Holliday still is my vote. No one IMO<-------done more to help his team win all season long or was more valuble to his team.

Solrac

11-24-2007, 06:34 PM

I Would Take Fielder,Hanley,Holliday And Definitley Wright Over Rollins For The MVP...
Rollins Is Completely Overrated...Stole 3 Awards

RubeBaker

11-25-2007, 09:29 AM

I know statistically it is not, since there are many seasons that are historically better

his OPS+ was not that great
he may not have deserved his gold glove
and his MVP is questionable

but knowing that he did win those two awards, lets take a look

MVP
GG at SS
20-20-20-20 Club
Led a PHILLIES team to the playoffs (may be a talented team, but historically its hard to get the Phillies to the playoffs)

Then what exactly is your criteria for having one of the best seasons ever? Sure, Granderson was in the 20-20-20-20 club too, but no one is saying he had one of the best seasons ever.

Besides he wasn't even the best at his position in his own league!

Rollins:
AVG .296
HR 30
OBP .344
OPS+ 118
VORP 66.1
SB 41

Hanley Ramirez:
AVG .332
HR 29
OBP .386
OPS+ 145
VORP 89.5
SB 51

A good year, yes. A great one, not on your life.

hartman74

11-25-2007, 09:44 AM

philkid3

11-25-2007, 03:46 PM

Um no. They were not both clearly deserving of the MVP. I wouldnt have voted for either of them. Mauer and Hanley for me. The supposed NY and BOS bias is so overblown, its hilarious. People need something to gripe about, I suppose.

I personally think it's underblown by people who don't live in the northeast.

I don't think it's a matter of having a stance that the northeast is somehow superior in all athletics, but just a general misunderstanding, or lack of any sort of caring, about sports outside of the northeast. NASCAR and college football are FAR more popular than the media would lead you to believe (and yes, I understand the media still makes them out to be popular). Northeast pundits tend to not have much of an idea what they're talking about when it comes to college football. An LA writer can tell you more about Rutgers than a Boston writer can tell you about USC.

Since moving to Washington, I see it a lot when it comes to things like the Seahawks. The Seahawks are usually either the most overrated or most underrated team in the league. The big media seems to have no idea what they're talking about with Seattle, if indeed they even recognize that they exist.

I don't think the east coast bias is some malicious attack against everything west of Pennsylvania, but it aboslutely 100% exists in a huge way.

The Yankees are not more popular than the Cowboys right now, and even when they are, their sport is less popular. You wouldn't know that from major media.

ElHalo

11-25-2007, 06:10 PM

I don't think the east coast bias is some malicious attack against everything west of Pennsylvania, but it aboslutely 100% exists in a huge way.

The Yankees are not more popular than the Cowboys right now, and even when they are, their sport is less popular. You wouldn't know that from major media.

For the most part I don't disagree with your post. People in the Northeast couldn't care less (compared with people in other parts of the country) about football or NASCAR, and so they tend to get underreported by national media based here.

There's two key points to bear in mind, though: Baseball gets overreported based on its national popularity precisely because it's so popular in the Northeast -- comparatively, much more popular than in other parts of the country. Second, the "BosWash" coastal corridor has approximately 44 million people in it, so, yeah, national reporting is going to be more centered there than in other places. The New York metro area has about 19 million people; by necessity national broadcasters are going to focus there more than most places.

And, depending on your definition of "popular," the Cowboys are not more popular than the Yankees. The Yankees had operating revenue in 2006 (latest year available) of $302 million, while the Cowboys were first in the NFL at $242 million (Forbes values the Cowboys at 1.5B, over the Yanks' 1.2B, based on the Cowboys' new stadium; the Yanks' new stadium, projected to boost revenue $50 mill a year, hasn't been built in to their valuation yet).

philkid3

11-25-2007, 06:41 PM

Part of that, of course, is part of the same reason baseball is likely to pass the NFL in total revenue soon: more ticketed events.

plask_stirlac

11-25-2007, 06:51 PM

Voters look at team first, then player. But if nobody stands out, like one the 2003 Yankees (since Soriano had a bad defensive rap) they might pick someone else for BA-HR-RBI.

Surprising years also help.

Athletic Domination

11-26-2007, 12:04 AM

Jimmy Rollins broke the all time record FOR MAKING OUTS and he won the MVP!

What a bizzaro-world decision.

He seriously shouldnt have even been in the top 10 MVP candidates. Maybe eek him in 8th or 9th or something, but cmon. That 4x20 thing is utterly pointless and shouldnt matter. David Wright was the most valuable player in the NL last year, as he had the most Win Shares.

ElHalo

11-26-2007, 02:56 AM

Jimmy Rollins broke the all time record FOR MAKING OUTS and he won the MVP!

This is the third time I've heard someone make this claim. It just isn't true.

Jimmy Rollins made 527 outs this season, which is tied for 18th all time. Not anywhere close to the all-time record for outs (Omar Moreno had 560 in 1980). He led the majors this year, but didn't come close to an all time record (and had fewer than Juan Pierre in 2006, who followed that up with a fat contract). Not sure why people keep claiming this.

digglahhh

11-26-2007, 09:18 AM

This is the third time I've heard someone make this claim. It just isn't true.

Jimmy Rollins made 527 outs this season, which is tied for 18th all time. Not anywhere close to the all-time record for outs (Omar Moreno had 560 in 1980). He led the majors this year, but didn't come close to an all time record (and had fewer than Juan Pierre in 2006, who followed that up with a fat contract). Not sure why people keep claiming this.

Yeah, Rollins made the most out of any player who wan an MVP. I think people are confusing that fact.

digglahhh

11-26-2007, 09:22 AM

I think the most impressive aspect of Jimmy Rollins 2007 season is the number of at bats. He had 716 plate appearances. He broke Willie Wilson's record of 705 appearances in 1980. The only other players to reach the 700 club were Juan Samuel in 1984 and Ichiro Suzuki in 2004.
I see Rollins keeping the plate appearances record for many years.

How is that impressive on J-Roll's behalf? His pedestrian OBP didn't do any sort of wonders for turning the line-up over or anything. He hit 1st for a very good offensive team, took very few walks, and played every day.

BTW, he had 176 ABs. I believe he had 778 PAs.

plask_stirlac

11-26-2007, 07:13 PM

David Wright was fantastic and we don't need an award to tell us that. I doubt he's starving for recognition and if he did have it with the collapse he'd be Dirk Nowitzki part deux, and not enjoying it much. Sure, the collapse shouldn't have happened but it did.

Are we sure Wright was more valuable than Webb? Look at the rosters. The Mets were pretty good at hitting and pitching otherwise. I would say Jason Bay was more valuable than Pujols in 2005, but I don't think he should get a trophy for it.

Arky Vaughan had several of the greatest seasons ever, especially 1935, and what to show for it! :D