A-Rod v Maggs

[tigers527]

I am not going to say that Magglio Ordonez deserved to win the MVP over Alex Rodriguez. I am going to suggest that the voting should of been a little closer. The 2 guys that wrote in Magglio over Rodriguez were not that nutty. It is a choice of filthy consistancy vs chicks dig the long ball.

AVG .363, 28 HR, 139 RBI vs AVG .314, 54 HR, 156 RBI. We all know which line goes to which player. On even the face of it, is it that big of a disparity? Sure the +26 HR is big, but so is the +.049 AVG.

If you look through the splits, Magglio batted .429 w/RISP, while Rodriguez batted .333 w/RISP. Magglio had one month where he batted under .300 (July .278). While Rodriguez had 2 months under .300 (May .235 & July .206). The lowest RBI total in any month was 19 RBI in June for Magglio and 11 RBI in May for Rodriguez. Magglio only batted under .300 vs 2 teams the whole season (NYY .294 and BOS .240). Rodriguez batted under .300 vs 6 teams (TOR .292, CWS .286, BOS .254, PIT .250, DET .241, MIN .136). Verse all other teams Magglio batted at least .324 or higher, while Rodriguez batted .304 or higher.

The question of "value"? Remove Alex Rodriguez from the Yankees, would they get the wild card? I would contend that the Yankees would still be in the mix for the wild card. Remove Magglio from the Tigers and .500 would be the benchmark for the mortor city kitties.

Like I said at the begining of this thread, I do not have a problem with Alex Rodriguez winning. I just think those 2 BBWAA peeps that wrote in Magglio weren't that far out there.

[Westlake]

I am not going to say that Magglio Ordonez deserved to win the MVP over Alex Rodriguez. I am going to suggest that the voting should of been a little closer. The 2 guys that wrote in Magglio over Rodriguez were not that nutty. It is a choice of filthy consistancy vs chicks dig the long ball.

AVG .363, 28 HR, 139 RBI vs AVG .314, 54 HR, 156 RBI. We all know which line goes to which player. On even the face of it, is it that big of a disparity? Sure the +26 HR is big, but so is the +.049 AVG.

If you look through the splits, Magglio batted .429 w/RISP, while Rodriguez batted .333 w/RISP. Magglio had one month where he batted under .300 (July .278). While Rodriguez had 2 months under .300 (May .235 & July .206). The lowest RBI total in any month was 19 RBI in June for Magglio and 11 RBI in May for Rodriguez. Magglio only batted under .300 vs 2 teams the whole season (NYY .294 and BOS .240). Rodriguez batted under .300 vs 6 teams (TOR .292, CWS .286, BOS .254, PIT .250, DET .241, MIN .136). Verse all other teams Magglio batted at least .324 or higher, while Rodriguez batted .304 or higher.

The question of "value"? Remove Alex Rodriguez from the Yankees, would they get the wild card? I would contend that the Yankees would still be in the mix for the wild card. Remove Magglio from the Tigers and .500 would be the benchmark for the mortor city kitties.

Like I said at the begining of this thread, I do not have a problem with Alex Rodriguez winning. I just think those 2 BBWAA peeps that wrote in Magglio weren't that far out there.

First thing is first, Batting average does not equal value. It's nice and pretty, and I like it a lot, but even I know it doesn't mean much in terms of value.

When you quote their averages with RISP, again it doesn't mean much. When you look at their OPS' with RISP, which is much more indicative of production, A-Rod had a 1.138, and Magglio had a 1.137, so A-Rod was actually slightly ahead there.

I really don't understand why this batting average against certain teams matters. Even just using batting average is weird there, but what does it matter against certain teams?

You pretty much centered your whole argument around the one stat that Magglio bested A-Rod in, which was batting average. Why not slugging, or OBP? Or anything else for that matter? Why use arbitrary periods of time to determine who was better (30 day periods, as if it matters how good a player is in that time when compared to the rest of the year), when we have the whole year to look at?

You remove A-Rod from the Yankees, and they probably don't make the playoffs. You take Magglio away from the Tigers, and they're doing the exact same thing they were doing in October, golfing.

I think the two people that voted for Magglio obviously either have something against A-Rod, are Detroit homers, or have absolutely no intelligence when it comes to player evaluation. I really have no idea who voted for him, though, so I dont know.

[stejay]

A rod vs maggs....one winner and that is................... well, you have probably already guessed. A ROD!!!!!:dance

[placount]

I think the two people that voted for Magglio obviously either have something against A-Rod, are Detroit homers, or have absolutely no intelligence when it comes to player evaluation. I really have no idea who voted for him, though, so I dont know.

yea they were both the local votes went to mags

[stejay]

They must have been blind, even if they are local

[sturg1dj]

that is why we will never see another .400 hitter, its because nobody gives a high average any credit anymore. Chicks do dig the longball, and more credit is given to a .280 hitter with 40 HR's and 150 K's then to a .350 hitter with 15 HR's and 50 K's. Both are impressive. Both produce.

Both are important for teams to win.

[stejay]

Are you saying Maggs deserved MVP????????

[KCGHOST]

Maggs had an MVP caliber season, but Arod was even better.

[skyking162]

I am not going to say that Magglio Ordonez deserved to win the MVP over Alex Rodriguez. I am going to suggest that the voting should of been a little closer. The 2 guys that wrote in Magglio over Rodriguez were not that nutty. It is a choice of filthy consistancy vs chicks dig the long ball.

AVG .363, 28 HR, 139 RBI vs AVG .314, 54 HR, 156 RBI. We all know which line goes to which player. On even the face of it, is it that big of a disparity? Sure the +26 HR is big, but so is the +.049 AVG.

If you look through the splits, Magglio batted .429 w/RISP, while Rodriguez batted .333 w/RISP. Magglio had one month where he batted under .300 (July .278). While Rodriguez had 2 months under .300 (May .235 & July .206). The lowest RBI total in any month was 19 RBI in June for Magglio and 11 RBI in May for Rodriguez. Magglio only batted under .300 vs 2 teams the whole season (NYY .294 and BOS .240). Rodriguez batted under .300 vs 6 teams (TOR .292, CWS .286, BOS .254, PIT .250, DET .241, MIN .136). Verse all other teams Magglio batted at least .324 or higher, while Rodriguez batted .304 or higher.

The question of "value"? Remove Alex Rodriguez from the Yankees, would they get the wild card? I would contend that the Yankees would still be in the mix for the wild card. Remove Magglio from the Tigers and .500 would be the benchmark for the mortor city kitties.

Like I said at the begining of this thread, I do not have a problem with Alex Rodriguez winning. I just think those 2 BBWAA peeps that wrote in Magglio weren't that far out there.

I think we all agree that every little thing a player does adds to his value, but that all those little things aren't worth the same amount. Here's a novel idea, give credit to players for what they due in proportion to how important it is. Now, it takes a little effort beyond typing up a quick subjective opinion, but I think it's worth it. If you don't know how to do that, make the effort to ask questions and find out.

[Captain Cold Nose]

To be fair, Ordonez had an incredible season. To bash his receiving two first place votes as blind homerism or anti-Arod conspiracy is far, far from fair. Perhaps the backlash against him is anti-Detroit/anything that's not Boston or New York is not worth discussing bias.

No one's honestly suggesting Ordonez deserved the MVP, stejay, but I don't think you should throw out the words blind or local, considering they can apply to you as a Yankee fan in regards to your reaction to the thread.

[tigers527]

I really don't understand why this batting average against certain teams matters. Even just using batting average is weird there, but what does it matter against certain teams?

I was just pointing out Magglios consistancy over the whole year....and here's some more.

Magglio
Multi-hit games: 61
No Hit games: 33
2 or more No Hit games in a row: 5
2+ No Hit games in a row: 0 (that's a SEGA number)
number of no hit games by month APR:6, MAY:6, JUN:2, JUL:7, AUG:7, SEP:5 (most 7, least 2)

Rodriguez
Multi-hit games: 44
No Hit games: 52
2 or more No Hit games in a row:8
2+ No Hit games in a row:2 (one 0 for 5 games, and one 0 for 6 games)
number of no hit games by month APR:3, MAY:11, JUN:8, JUL:14, AUG:8 SEP:8 (most 14, least 3)

[tigers527]

Put on your imagination caps.....

Put Magglio in pinstripes and put an olde english D on A-Rod. Does A-Rod still win the MVP? Probably. Is the voting a lot closer? Yes. Is anyone FREAKING out about the "homerism" of the BBWAA from NY who voted Maggs? Nope.

Just thought I would mention that....as long as we are talking about bais. :D

[The Splendid Splinter]

Put on your imagination caps.....

Put Magglio in pinstripes and put an olde english D on A-Rod.

Granderson would've had about 160 runs instead of 122. :dance

[rdonahue]

Granderson would've had about 160 runs instead of 122. :dance

That might have won him the Gold Gloves and Silver Sluggers he deserved!

[philkid3]

If you think A-Rod should have won, why should the vote have been closer? Shouldn't the guy who deserves it concievably get every first place vote? Do you believe in intentionally voting for someone else to avoid letting the winner come off unanimously?

No, it should not have been closer. It should have been unanimous, as great a season as Ordonez had.

[Neilios]

Opinions state that it should have been unanimous. Fact: it wasn't.

[nerfan]

That might have won him the Gold Gloves and Silver Sluggers he deserved!

If only, if only...

A-Rod plain and simple dominated the AL. Magglio had a great season, but it was not close to the caliber of play that Alex Rodriguez brought to the table for the New York Yankeees. Take A-Rod's 70 batting runs away from the Yankees and they have almost less than no playoff chances.

[DoubleX]

I can't believe no one has mentioned their positions yet. No question that both players had terrific years, but A-Rod had the better year and did it while playing a fairly good 3B, while Ordonez plays an averagish RF. That's a huge difference. There's a far, far greater premium for the kind of production A-Rod had at 3B than there was for Ordonez in the corner OF, and that's what value is, IMO. Ordonez season was certainly great, but not nearly at the premium as what A-Rod did at 3B.

[tigers527]

I can't believe no one has mentioned their positions yet. No question that both players had terrific years, but A-Rod had the better year and did it while playing a fairly good 3B, while Ordonez plays an averagish RF. That's a huge difference. There's a far, far greater premium for the kind of production A-Rod had at 3B than there was for Ordonez in the corner OF, and that's what value is, IMO. Ordonez season was certainly great, but not nearly at the premium as what A-Rod did at 3B.

I think both players played below average defense in their respective positions. The league average range factor numbers seem to back that statement up.

A-Rod rf9:2.42 lgfr9:2.63 (18th in comparison to qualified MLB 3B men)
Maggs rf9:1.95 lgrf9:2.08 (15th in comparison to qualified MLB RFers)

Fielding % Maggs .996 (tied 1st for MLB RF) A-Rod .965 (8th for MLB 3B)

Asside from Maggs FP, there is nothing to write home about in either case? Then again it is probably tougher to play a nothing to write home about 3B then it is to play a nothing to write home about RF.

It should be noted in range factor compairsons, that Maggs played next to the second best range factor CFer in MLB. While A-Rod played next to the 23rd best range factor SS in MLB.

I suppose these middle of the road defenders are probably both happy they get their respective turns at the dish. Cause neither guy is a defensive gem.

[DoubleX]

I think both players played below average defense in their respective positions. The league average range factor numbers seem to back that statement up.

A-Rod rf9:2.42 lgfr9:2.63 (18th in comparison to qualified MLB 3B men)
Maggs rf9:1.95 lgrf9:2.08 (15th in comparison to qualified MLB RFers)

Fielding % Maggs .996 (tied 1st for MLB RF) A-Rod .965 (8th for MLB 3B)

Asside from Maggs FP, there is nothing to write home about in either case? Then again it is probably tougher to play a nothing to write home about 3B then it is to play a nothing to write home about RF.

It should be noted in range factor compairsons, that Maggs played next to the second best range factor CFer in MLB. While A-Rod played next to the 23rd best range factor SS in MLB.

I suppose these middle of the road defenders are probably both happy they get their respective turns at the dish. Cause neither guy is a defensive gem.

Not sure where you're going with this, except that if they are both middle of the road, as you said, there's much more value in being an average defensive 3Bman doing what A-Rod did than an average defensive cornre OFer doing what Ordonez did (or just irrespective of offense, there is more value in an average 3Bman compared to an average corner OFer). Also not sure why CF and SS are coming up, given that neither player played any games at either position this year. I also don't think range factor is a particularly helpful defensive statistic, particularly for OFers.

Anyway, like I said, the kind of offense A-Rod gave while playing 3B is at a much greater premium than what Ordonez did in RF. Ordonez had a great season, but it didn't really approach historic as A-Rod's did. Consider these tidbits:

- A-Rod's 177 OPS+ ranks as the 5th highest in a season for a 3Bman (8th if you also count Mel Ott's 1938, Dick Allen's 1966, and Harmon Killebrew's 1969, where all three played less than 120 games at 3B (Allen and Killebrew under 95) and significant time at other positions), and none of the players ahead of him stole more than 15 bases in their seasons, while A-Rod stole 24 at an 85% clip, and that probably translates to another couple points of OPS+, which would move A-Rod up to 3rd or 4th. In comparison, Ordonez's 167 is tied for 61st best all time in RF and 137th all time if include all corner OF seasons.

- A-Rod's 39 win shares are tied for 9th all time for a 3Bman. In comparison, Ordonez's 36 win shares are tied for 46th all time for a RFer and 100th all time among all corner OF seasons.

- A-Rod was the first 3Bman ever to hit 50+ homeruns, no small feat considering he was also the first right-handed Yankee to hit that mark as well.

- A-Rod was the first 3Bman ever to have more than 150 RBI in a season

- A-Rod became just the 5th different player to have 50+ homeruns and 150+ RBI in a season (and the 7th such season), and only once did any of the others even get to double-digits in stolen bases (Ruth in '21).

- A-Rod was the first player since 1961 to lead the Majors in homeruns, RBI, and runs, and he's like one of only five players to have done that in the last 75 years

- A-Rod led the league in homeruns, RBI, runs, slugging, OPS, OPS+, Win Shares, total bases, runs created, adjusted batting runs, batting wins, times on base, and power/speed

Don't get me wrong, Ordonez had an excellent season, and in many years might have a very good case for MVP, but A-Rod really put up some special numbers this year especially considering his position, while Ordonez had the kind of year that we typically see from a corner OFer or two each year.

[hellborn]

Granderson would've had about 160 runs instead of 122. :dance

Both of these guys were beasts with men on!
ARod hit .329, slugged .719, and hit 36 of his 54 homers (2/3) with men on. He drove in 102 baserunners other than himself. That percentage of homers with men on is astounding. ARod had 391PAs with men on and 313 ABs (lots of walks).
Maggs hit .391, slugged .625, and hit 15 of his 28 HRs with men on. He drove in 111 runners other than himself. He also had 351 PAs with men on and 299ABs.
Most of ARod's RBI advantage is from driving himself in more often, and both men did a pretty amazing job of sweeping the bases. I don't have an actual baserunner count for them, but it looks to me like Maggs was a little bit better at getting his teammates across the plate.
I don't think that Curtis would have done any better with ARod behind him.

[Rags2Riches]

that is why we will never see another .400 hitter, its because nobody gives a high average any credit anymore. Chicks do dig the longball, and more credit is given to a .280 hitter with 40 HR's and 150 K's then to a .350 hitter with 15 HR's and 50 K's. Both are impressive. Both produce.

Both are important for teams to win.


I wouldn't say people don't take avg into account anymore.....if your hitting .350+ people notice that imho, even more so when you have the power #'s along with that avg

but as KCGHOST stated, Maggs had a MVP season no doubt, but ARod's was the better season...and that's the way it ends up some times.....

[philkid3]

I wouldn't say people don't take avg into account anymore.....

Fewer and fewer people do, though, as they realize more and more how limited its usefullness is. And that's not a bad thing.

[Westlake]

If you think A-Rod should have won, why should the vote have been closer? Shouldn't the guy who deserves it concievably get every first place vote? Do you believe in intentionally voting for someone else to avoid letting the winner come off unanimously?

No, it should not have been closer. It should have been unanimous, as great a season as Ordonez had.

Completely agree here. If one should obviously win it, why should the vote be any closer?

[tigers527]

Not sure where you're going with this, except that if they are both middle of the road, as you said, there's much more value in being an average defensive 3Bman doing what A-Rod did than an average defensive cornre OFer doing what Ordonez did (or just irrespective of offense, there is more value in an average 3Bman compared to an average corner OFer). Also not sure why CF and SS are coming up, given that neither player played any games at either position this year. I also don't think range factor is a particularly helpful defensive statistic, particularly for OFers.

I was comparing the two players range factors. A RFers range factor can be impacted by a above or below average range factor of the CFer next to them. Just as a 3B mens range factor can be impacted by the range factor of the SS next to them. That's all. Curtis Granderson took away from Magglio's range factor, by making plays an average CFer leaves to the RFer. If anything Derek Jeter's lesser range factor probably added chances to A-Rods, by A-Rod knowing that he has to get those balls to his left etc.

I was impressed with the numbers you threw out there in regards to A-Rod in relation to MLB 3B guys. For that matter I have never said I disagreed with the selection of A-Rod as MVP. I am merely offering to the debate of Maggs getting some consideration without ridicule that the 2 writers recieved who saw what Maggs consistantly did day in and day out.

Again to that consistancy....

.....Magglio set an all-time Tigers record for most multi hit games in a season with 61 (38% of all the games, A-Rod had 44 multi hit games, 27% of all the games). I am not sure where that puts Magglio in MLB history. But I do know there have been a couple pretty good Tigers in the history of MLB. So I would venture to say he's pretty far up there and likely one of the highest "power" guys on the list.

Magglio only had 33 games where he recorded no hits (20% of the games). And never had more then 2 games in a row without a hit. For comparison even Ichiro had a 0 for 3 game stretch in 2007. He drew at least one walk in 12 of those games. Leaving a mere 21 games where he did not reach base (13%). I am not sure what the MLB record is for fewest games without a hit, but again I would say Magglio's 33 has gotta be one of the lowest for a "power" guy?

A-Rod had 52 games (32%) with no hits and one 6 game stretch (4%) and another 5 game stretch (3%) without any hits. In 24 of those games A-Rod did draw at least one walk. Getting his did not reach base number down to 28 games (17%)

Magglio never batted lower then .278 in a single month (.278 once in July) and batted over .343 in the rest of the months. While A-Rod batted .235 and .206 in the months of May and July respectively. For a little historical prespective, Ichiro Suzuki's .373 AVG, 262 hit season. Ichiro batted .255 and .274 in April and June respectively.

Magglio had an historic season, just in different ways then A-Rod had.

Again, it is merely an argument of consistancy v sexy. And sexy wins that argument in most cases, except maybe investment banking?

After all that...I am still wondering you peeps thoughts on the simple premise...Change their respective uniforms and everything else stays the same. Is there still the shouts of "homerism", and "knuckleheadedness" and "anti-A-Rod bais" toward any of the writers that would of choose Maggs the NY Yankee with his numbers v A-Rod the Detroit Tiger with his numbers?

I think not. And that's just not fair.