Barry Bonds Indicted on Perjury and Obstruction of Justice Charges

[ESPNFan]

Well this was a long time comming. I wonder if Greg Anderson finally got tired of rotting in jail and turned on Bonds.

In even more discouraging news, this will be all over ESPN for weeks :disbelief:

[Mattingly]

For perjury and obstruction of justice.

http://www.rotoworld.com/content/HeadLines.aspx?sport=MLB&hl=226342

[DODGER DEB]

Just coming across the ticker on NBC....BARRY BONDS has been INDICTED for PERJURY and OBSTRUCTION of JUSTICE!

Details to follow.

c.

[Mattingly]

http://www.ktvu.com/news/14606146/detail.html

SAN FRANCISCO -- Major League Baseball's all-time home run king Barry Bonds was indicted Thursday on perjury and obstruction justice charges, according to KTVU reporter Rita Williams.

The five-count indictment -- four counts of perjury and one of obstruciton of justice -- capped one of the longest federal grand jury investigations in Northern California history -- a proceeding that introduced the sports world to the acronym BALCO (Bay Area Laboratory Co-Operative) and led to the downfall of American track and field world and Olympic champions Marion Jones, Kelli White and Tim Montgomery.

Remember when he used to look like this?



Now he looks like:



Anyone here besides myself notice a *SLIGHT* difference?

[fenrir]

Good. I hope noone signs him and he just retires.

[Mattingly]

Good. I hope noone signs him and he just retires.
As has been said by a few people I know, this comes 1 year too late. Such is life.

[KCGHOST]

It just seems like way too much time and money was invested in this case to get this result.

[TonyStarks]

About time!

[SamtheBravesFan]

It just seems like way too much time and money was invested in this case to get this result.

Think about how much more is going to be invested in it when it goes to trial.

[NightHawks2007]

What does the government hope to accomplish with this? They should just get their noses out of baseball before it ruins the game even more. All the steroid investigation and now this indictment is allowing the steroid cloud to linger and grow. Baseball will escape it, but with the government continuing to press investigation of something that baseball is trying to get rid of, it will continue to take longer.

[Mike27]

What does the government hope to accomplish with this? They should just get their noses out of baseball before it ruins the game even more. All the steroid investigation and now this indictment is allowing the steroid cloud to linger and grow. Baseball will escape it, but with the government continuing to press investigation of something that baseball is trying to get rid of, it will continue to take longer.


The government is doing the right thing. They are showing players they are serious. I think it's great Bond's is going to be indicted, and I hope he's found guilty.

[Knick9]

Go figure... :yawn:

[Zito75]

Too little, too late.

I seriously doubt he'll get much more than a fine and probation- IF he's found guilty. (although finding a partial jury might be difficult)

[Williamsburg2599]

I heard on ESPN that the official press release from the Feds mentioned positive steroid tests among the evidence...:reporter:

[Mattingly]

Now I'm hearing that his ex-trainer, Greg Anderson has been ordered freed from jail. Does anyone suppose that Anderson finally threw Barry under the bus and sang like a freed jailbird?

[Neilios]

And it took all of 4 years.

And He'll spend as many days in jail as Kobe and Vick. And O.J.

%*&#ing legal system.

[MyDogSparty]

Wow, now that this day is finally here, I feel different than I thought I would. It's really a sad day for baseball. There's no telling how many players were doing the same thing. How sad.

[PeteReiser]

Well this was a long time comming. I wonder if Greg Anderson finally got tired of rotting in jail and turned on Bonds.

In even more discouraging news, this will be all over ESPN for weeks :disbelief:

God avenges the Babe! :cap:

[philipthegreat]

http://sports.aol.com/mlb/story/_a/bonds-indicted-on-federal-charges/20071115172009990001?ncid=NWS00010000000001

Clearly if Anderson his "friend" is out something fishy happened. This is actually kind of depressing.

Bonds clearly isn't the only one who lied about steroids, why isn't Palmeiro being indicted for perjury.

P.S. are there any lawyers on this website?

[chrispw1]

I was talking with a buddy of mine a few months ago and he said he felt it was possible that the feds were intentionally waiting to indite him until after he broke the record as a way to stick it to baseball for dragging their feet so long on testing and not giving them an easy way out, you think that may be possible?

[Neilios]

Bonds clearly isn't the only one who lied about steroids, why isn't Palmeiro being indicted for perjury.

Because Palmeiro isn't the all time homeruns king.

[fenrir]

bonds fans are funny. always trying to take the heat off of poor old bonds. palmerio is a cheat too and belongs in jail, as does all the other roiders, but how does that excuse bonds?

face it bonds is a fraud. he was one of the best players ever before 2000 but he got greedy and cheated his way into the record books. his career is done.

[Ytown Tribe fan]

As long as it bumps OJ off the tv, I'm okay with it.

Bonus: Barry won't have to worry about missing the HoF ceremony due to an asterisk.

[Neilios]

I still say get back to me when an actual sentence is carried out. Oh wait, he's a star athlete. Nevermind.

[Knick9]

And it took all of 4 years.

And He'll spend as many days in jail as Kobe and Vick. And O.J.

%*&#ing legal system.

Though I wouldn't swear, I agree exactly with that.

[brewcrew82]

Anyone here besides myself notice a *SLIGHT* difference?

Yes, in the first picture he was 19. Whilst I'm not a fan of Bonds comparing him at 19 and him in his early 40's is a little unfair. I'm stronger now than I was at 19 and I've never done a banned substance, just worked out harder.
Comparing him during his time within he Majors would be a little fairer than showing him in one as a college aged kid playing for the Goldpanners.

[Erik Bedard]

I honestly couldn't care much less if he goes to jail. What he did, in the grand scheme of things, ranks far, far below O.J. (the original thing, not this weird one), far below what Kobe was accused of, and yes, even below what Vick did, overblown though it was. That said, I'm glad his baseball career is likely over.

[rockin500]

Now I'm hearing that his ex-trainer, Greg Anderson has been ordered freed from jail. Does anyone suppose that Anderson finally threw Barry under the bus and sang like a freed jailbird?
i dont find it funny at all. bonds was indicted. there was no reason to keep him locked up. Would it stun me if he flipped? not really, i suppose. But i find it less likely than the logical reason.

[brett]

I am glad that this may lead to a better understanding of the truth. I know respected sports scientists who's best guess is that he only took THG (not illegal at the time) to that he took injectible steroids as far back as 1994.

Personally, my best guess is that he took oral THG which was not illegal (but which Balco may be guilty of basically "duping" the government with.) AND topical testosterone cream which he was under a "don't ask, don't tell and by the way you won't test positive" covenant.

Second best is that the clear also had testosterone.

He might be found guilty if the right questions were asked but it will be a tough case.

[redlegsfan21]

I think it will be very hard to convict Bonds considering the case in question was in 2003. It would be much easier to covict Palmeiro since there was about 7 months difference between cases.

[Chi]

The government is doing the right thing. They are showing players they are serious. I think it's great Bond's is going to be indicted, and I hope he's found guilty.

Hope he's found guilty?

I'm going to play devil's advocate here. What if he's not? If he failed a drug test (as they're now saying) why the hell weren't we told about it a long time ago? If they have actual evidence, why did it take them all these years of investigation to come up with anything?

You hope he's found guilty, before you've seen the purported evidence? That really bugs me.

I'm not going to say he's innocent (although I've yet to see any evidence against him that isn't purely circumstantial), but a lot of people seem to want to blame Barry Bonds for the entire steroids problem that afflicted/afflicts baseball. The ENTIRE problem. I've seen a few witch-hunts in my life and I doubt this qualifies (as a few of his fans would protest), but it HAS been a constant investigation for years searching for SOME way, ANY way, to make him the scapegoat for steroids in general.

Did he use steroids? I don't know. There's certainly a good chance of it. But we've had an investigation more or less running on the view that "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence". His attitude towards the media? Well, if I had reporters breathing down my neck and accusing me of cheating and assaulting me at every turn, I really don't think I would be nice to them either.

[placount]

he will serve about as much time as paris hilton did

[rockin500]

he will serve about as much time as paris hilton did
actually, shes a bad example in celebrity justice as she actually served more time than the common person (served more than 87% of people who had the same crime she did in her court system). you should use someone like nicole richie (a couple of hours) michelle rodriguez (one hour) or lindsay lohan (87 minutes)

actually, if he does get convicted, i wouldnt be surprised if it wasnt something like martha stewart (who did several months in medium security women's prison).

[Richmond Hill Phoenix]

Excerpt from the NY Times:
The 10-page indictment of Mr. Bonds said the investigation had turned up evidence “including positive tests for the presence of anabolic steroids and other performance-enhancing substances for Bonds and other professional athletes.”

Baseball did not begin testing for performance-enhancing drugs until the 2003 season. Balco routinely tested its clients’ blood to monitor drug levels.

The indictment said, “During the criminal investigation, evidence was obtained including positive tests for the presence of anabolic steroids and other performance-enhancing substances for Bonds and other professional athletes.”http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/16/sports/baseball/16bonds.html?ref=baseball

Take it for what it's worth...

[Chi]

Having already ranted once, I'll make a comment on what I think.

I hope the truth comes out, whatever it is. If he really is the victim of circumstance, I hope that's what comes out of this. If he did steroids, I hope he's convicted for perjury.

[MudvilleMike]

I don't want Barry Bonds spending one minute in jail. I've been fairly critical of Bonds in the past, but this is just overkill. Bonds belongs in the HOF, was vastly superior to Aaron, but deserves an * next to the HR record. Actually baseball fans deserve an * next to their names for making such a big deal over silly records.

[Dodgerfan1]

My stance about Bonds has been made plenty of times, although I generally stay away from spouting off too much. There's no need to continually harp on it. I've made my point. The fact is that I'm glad he has been busted. Not so much for steroids, which renders his home run record moot, IMO, but because he was indicted for perjury and obstruction of justice. Yes, the actions of Bryant, Vick and OJ were worse than taking steroids, but let's not get sidetracked from the REAL charges, which aren't steroid abuse, in this particular indictment. Perjury and obstruction of justice are, whether anyone believes it or not, very serious charges. No, it's not murder or even animal cruelty. But lying to a grand jury under oath should be viewed as serious, IMO, and if he did, I hope they throw the book at his lying a**. If it turns out he didn't lie, let him go, but I think if anyone actually believes he didn't, well..... the Brooklyn Bridge is still available for purchase.

[placount]

My stance about Bonds has been made plenty of times, although I generally stay away from spouting off too much. There's no need to continually harp on it. I've made my point. The fact is that I'm glad he has been busted. Not so much for steroids, which renders his home run record moot, IMO, but because he was indicted for perjury and obstruction of justice. Yes, the actions of Bryant, Vick and OJ were worse than taking steroids, but let's not get sidetracked from the REAL charges, which aren't steroid abuse, in this particular indictment. Perjury and obstruction of justice are, whether anyone believes it or not, very serious charges. No, it's not murder or even animal cruelty. But lying to a grand jury under oath should be viewed as serious, IMO, and if he did, I hope they throw the book at his lying a**. If it turns out he didn't lie, let him go, but I think if anyone actually believes he didn't, well..... the Brooklyn Bridge is still available for purchase.

work with me here, what do you think would be a fair offer?

[Ytown Tribe fan]

The outcome of this whole deal (indictment, trial, verdict, sentence) only answers half the question when it comes to baseball: did he lie about taking a banned substance?

I am fairly sure we will find out the truth about that, anyway.

What we WON'T find out is this: did this substance affect his performance on the field in any way? Everything about THAT question is purely conjecture and opinion.

There are three things about "cheating" that have to be considered, if you consider "cheating" to be anything that breaks the rules of baseball (whether it broke the law or not):

1) did the cheating help the player perform better?

2) did the cheating help the team win ballgames?

3) did the cheating cause the team to LOSE ballgames?

Throwing the WS, or throwing any ballgame, which certainly happened before Landis came along, is cheating that is clearly going to have a negative impact on the perception of a player.

The other form of cheating, the so-called positive cheating, is in a completely different category, but one question MUST be answered before the act can be considered cheating, whether it is against the law or not: Did that act help the player's performance? If it can be proved that it did, such as adding a foreign substance to the pitched baseball to make it harder to hit, then it is in fact cheating. And even with that, remember that the spitball and emery ball is against the rules PRIMARILY because it poses a danger to the batter, not because it helps the pitcher. It MAY be harder to hit, but it IS harder to see, and such substances were banned after the death of Ray Chapman for that reason, NOT because it was "cheating" per se.

No one has ever shown that taking ANY banned substance, from greenies to HGH to 'roids to cocaine to anything else that comes down the pike over the last 150 years, has ever improved a player's performance on the field. No one has shown that the strength increase that results from taking a banned substance cannot be achieved through a legal nutritional regimen and weight training.

Until that happens, Bonds is a HoFer IMO. He may be in jail for perjury, but he is still a HoFer.

[Fuzzy Bear]

It just seems like way too much time and money was invested in this case to get this result.

I couldn't agree more.

Here's the actual indictment. (http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2007/1115072bonds1.html) Read it for yourself, and decide just how cheesy it is.

When I read "perjury" and "obstruction of justice", I thought that there might be something to the effect that Bonds lied about his ECONOMIC relationship to BALCO. That he somehow was a partner in BALCO, which would have made him a party to illegal drug dealing, etc. Or that he bought Greg Anderson's silence, and was being exposed. But, no, that's not the case. The whole indictment is stating the Bonds lied about being given steroids to use. Nothing more. The "obstruction of justice" charge is just restating the previous charge, stating that his lying to the grand jury obstructed the investigation; it's a blatant prosecutorial "double-dip". And his testimony did not cause the government to fail to prove its case against BALCO, either; the BALCO defendants have been successfully prosecuted.

Barry Bonds is an arrogant jerk, and he well may have lied to the grand jury. Reading the testimony in question, however, it will not be easy to prove this. I am not convinced Bonds will be convicted, and I do not believe he will go to jail or prison for this, either; at worst, a plea agreement will be reached where Bonds does no time. I am also not convinced that if this were not a major athlete, this case would have never been brought. The case is a headline-grabber, and the failure to indict over a year ago has brought pressure down on prosecutors to justify themselves; they HAD to come up with SOMETHING, and THIS is it.

If Bonds really was bankrolling BALCO, as, say, Michael Vick was with his dogfighting operation, he would have been profiting from illicit drug dealing, and the reckless endangerment of the health of people other than himself. But that's not the case; that's not what's been alleged. If Bonds paid hush money to Greg Anderson to buy his silence, that, too, would be something else; that would have been classic mobster behavior, but that, too, is not the case. He lied about using steroids, using the "I don't know" or "I can't recall" cards. Read the testimony for yourself, then tell me how you would prove this "beyond a reasonable doubt", a high standard, to be sure. I'm all for putting steroid dealers out of business, but the vitriol against Bonds has more to do with his persona than his actions, and the entire jihad against steriods has, IMO, gotten more than a little bit out of hand.

[Fuzzy Bear]

Bonds clearly isn't the only one who lied about steroids, why isn't Palmeiro being indicted for perjury?

Because Palmiero's positive tests came five months after his testimony before Congress. Whatever one thinks happened, an indictment for perjury requires some level of proof that a person knowingly lied.

Additionally, all lies under oath are not necessarily perjury. That's a legal issue I'll leave to lawyers, but the lie has to be about a central issue to a case, as I understand it.

[digglahhh]

I honestly couldn't care much less if he goes to jail. What he did, in the grand scheme of things, ranks far, far below O.J. (the original thing, not this weird one), far below what Kobe was accused of, and yes, even below what Vick did, overblown though it was. That said, I'm glad his baseball career is likely over.

The "what he did" in this case, isn't take steroids. What he (allegedly) did was lie under oath and willfully obstruct a federal investigation. That is a big deal, in the eyes of the law. It is the principle of it. The offense is no less serious if you are lying about how hit balls over fences than it would be if he was lying about not knowing the location of Bin Laden. The offense lies in the act of undermining the integrity of the criminal justice system, encouraging it to fail by supplying disinformation.

How I feel about criminal justice system as it plays out notwithstanding...

[digglahhh]

bonds fans are funny. always trying to take the heat off of poor old bonds. palmerio is a cheat too and belongs in jail, as does all the other roiders, but how does that excuse bonds?

face it bonds is a fraud. he was one of the best players ever before 2000 but he got greedy and cheated his way into the record books. his career is done.

Somebody questioning whether the law has been applied equally does not equate to "trying to take the heat off Bonds." I haven't read a single post claiming Raffy should be indicted INSTEAD of Bonds.

[ESPNFan]

Sorry but I have no problem with the government going after Bonds and hope that he is found guilty. He was offered immunity to testify honestly, its become pretty obvious he didn't do that. In a high profile case your aren't going to be able to lie on the stand in front of a federal grand jury when your given immunity and think that the government will just ignore that defiance. If Paris Hilton can do time so can Barry. Nobody is above the law.

[ESPNFan]

Somebody questioning whether the law has been applied equally does not equate to "trying to take the heat off Bonds." I haven't read a single post claiming Raffy should be indicted INSTEAD of Bonds.

The Palmeiro case is pretty simple. He said he never took steroids, and then tested positive AFTER he made that claim. Unless some new evidence comes up that Raffy was using before his date infront of congress he's safe.

[Knick9]

I don't want Barry Bonds spending one minute in jail. I've been fairly critical of Bonds in the past, but this is just overkill. Bonds belongs in the HOF, was vastly superior to Aaron, but deserves an * next to the HR record. Actually baseball fans deserve an * next to their names for making such a big deal over silly records.

With all due respect, I think you'd be in the minority of having that opinion.

[digglahhh]

The Palmeiro case is pretty simple. He said he never took steroids, and then tested positive AFTER he made that claim. Unless some new evidence comes up that Raffy was using before his date infront of congress he's safe.

Yes. The poster in question did misinterpret the conditions under which as false statement can be considered perjury, I'm aware of that. That was not what I was objecting to, the poster was questioning if the law was being applied equally. Under the misinterpretation of the law that the poster had, it was a valid question and not an attempt to divert attention from Bonds.

BTW, the fact that Raffy didn't test positive until after his statement doesn't make him bulletproof against the possibility of a perjury charge. If one could supply credible evidence that Raffy was knowingly taking steroids prior to his statement he too could be convicted of lying under oath. A postive test after the statements does meet that burden, but that is not to say that nothing else could.

By the same token, the positive test is not the smoking gun in the Bonds case in and of itself either. Bonds never issued an outright denial of steroid use in his grand jury testimony. He only claimed to not take them knowingly. The test from Balco is only evidence of perjury if it is established that Bonds continued to take the substance after testing positive and being aware that he tested positive. The positive test itself only establishes the taking substances part, not the "knowingly" part. Were he, theoretically, to take substances, test positive and then stop, he could still make the claim that he didn't knowingly take steroids (absent third party evidence to the contrary).

[KCGHOST]

There is a real possibility that MLB could well be the only sport in the world in which two of its principal record holders (hits leader and HR leader) won't be in their HoF.

[dl4060]

http://www.ktvu.com/news/14606146/detail.html


Remember when he used to look like this?



Now he looks like:



Anyone here besides myself notice a *SLIGHT* difference?


Those pictures do not convince me that he has taken steroids. People can change quite a bit over 15-20 years if they put their mind to it, work hard, and have good genetics.

That being said, I have never had very much doubt that he HAS taken roids. But pictures do not do it for me. If he changed that much in three years, that would be different.

[dl4060]

http://sports.aol.com/mlb/story/_a/bonds-indicted-on-federal-charges/20071115172009990001?ncid=NWS00010000000001

Clearly if Anderson his "friend" is out something fishy happened. This is actually kind of depressing.

Bonds clearly isn't the only one who lied about steroids, why isn't Palmeiro being indicted for perjury.

P.S. are there any lawyers on this website?

They did go after Palmeiro, they just did not have evidence to get him. His positive test came AFTER he denied using steroids. The positive test does not provide evidence that he lied to the grand jury. The feds did try to bring a case against him, it just did not work.



As to Anderson, if they have other evidence to bring perjury charges against Bonds, then they no longer need Anderson, so he should be released anyway. I am not sure whether he testified or not, but just being released does not mean he gave Barry up. I would say that even if he did, staying in jail for that long before cracking is the mark of a good friend. Barry owes Greg thanks regardless.

EDIT: I believe Anderson's lawyer has issued a statement saying Greg said nothing, I am not positive, but I think he has.

[efin98]

Wasn't Anderson being held in contempt of court because of his refusal to give up any information on Bonds?

With Bonds being indicted there really wasn't a need to have him in jail, wouldn't a judge have lifted the contempt order after the indictment was reached since his testimony was no longer needed in order to reach one?

[brett]

Wasn't Anderson being held in contempt of court because of his refusal to give up any information on Bonds?

With Bonds being indicted there really wasn't a need to have him in jail, wouldn't a judge have lifted the contempt order after the indictment was reached since his testimony was no longer needed in order to reach one?


Contempt of court only lasts as long as a jury convenes.

[Skin & Bones]

I am glad that this may lead to a better understanding of the truth. I know respected sports scientists who's best guess is that he only took THG (not illegal at the time) to that he took injectible steroids as far back as 1994.

Personally, my best guess is that he took oral THG which was not illegal (but which Balco may be guilty of basically "duping" the government with.) AND topical testosterone cream which he was under a "don't ask, don't tell and by the way you won't test positive" covenant.

Second best is that the clear also had testosterone.

He might be found guilty if the right questions were asked but it will be a tough case.

Brett - I never heard of anything about Bonds using in 94. The allegations are that he started using steroids sometime in 1999 because he was jealous of Mcgwire and Sosa in 98. Supposedly he tested positive in 2000.

[sds416]

[QUOTE=Chi;1049603]Hope he's found guilty?

I'm going to play devil's advocate here. What if he's not? If he failed a drug test (as they're now saying) why the hell weren't we told about it a long time ago? If they have actual evidence, why did it take them all these years of investigation to come up with anything?

because no lawyer worth a damn is going to leak every bit of evidence they have on a case. They wanted Anderson to flip and releasing the fact that they had a positive drug test only would weaken any leverage they have against Anderson.

You hope he's found guilty, before you've seen the purported evidence? That really bugs me.

sometimes you don't root for people or you hope people will fail, especially those who have displayed a certain arrogance, self righteousness and ignorance.


I'm not going to say he's innocent (although I've yet to see any evidence against him that isn't purely circumstantial), but a lot of people seem to want to blame Barry Bonds for the entire steroids problem that afflicted/afflicts baseball. The ENTIRE problem. I've seen a few witch-hunts in my life and I doubt this qualifies (as a few of his fans would protest), but it HAS been a constant investigation for years searching for SOME way, ANY way, to make him the scapegoat for steroids in general.

This is not a roids witch hunt. The charges have nothing to do with steroids. He had immunity from prosecution on drug charges when he testified. The only charge that could result from his testimony was Perjury and Obstruction, which could only occur if he chose to lie about his activity regarding steroids. He chose to lie, therefore they have chosen to charge him with perjury and obstruction.

Did he use steroids? I don't know. There's certainly a good chance of it. But we've had an investigation more or less running on the view that "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence". His attitude towards the media? Well, if I had reporters breathing down my neck and accusing me of cheating and assaulting me at every turn, I really don't think I would be nice to them either.

He needed to take a page from the Jason Giambi book. Testify, tell the truth, apologize, move on with your life. Instead he chose to be an arrogant, self righteous jackass. A little bit of humbleness goes a long way.

There is no reason to feel sorry for Barry. He did this to himself.

[BoweryBoys]

Great Points! sds416. It is ultimately Bonds own arrogance that has got him into this situation. It is all clearly only his own fault and he has only himself to blame. All he had to do was be 100 percent truthful while under oath but he couldn't because the man will never admit he is not want he so badly wants everyone else to believe and accept, that he is the greatest natural baseball talent of all-time. Sorry Barry, I don't think very many people really believe that any more.

[Mattingly]

Yes, in the first picture he was 19. Whilst I'm not a fan of Bonds comparing him at 19 and him in his early 40's is a little unfair. I'm stronger now than I was at 19 and I've never done a banned substance, just worked out harder.
Comparing him during his time within he Majors would be a little fairer than showing him in one as a college aged kid playing for the Goldpanners.
OK, I'll admit that the picture was a little young of his. I had to stare at the face a few times to insure that it was him. The middle of the face said it was the same person so I ran with it.

Let's look at a few others:



What I'm seeing from his Pirates years was that he was a lot less bulky on the thighs, arms, chest and his head is definitely smaller. To me, when your head looks larger relative to your body and you've added about 40 lbs or so, then to me, your head size has increased.

If his head size had stayed the same, or at least looked about the same proportionately, I could say fine, but when your head looks larger and your body is much bigger, I have to wonder about things.

I've known people who were much larger at age 40 and in better shape than when they were 21 or so. Then again, people who were in prime shape at 21 may have also gone downhill when they approached 40, so it's a 2-way street to me.

Between the jump in performance, the head size and the change in his physique, it's like he's gone from Bill Bixby to the Incredible Hulk. There's just something about Barry Bonds' 2001-present career that I don't really believe is for real and clean, as he'd claimed.

[SHOELESSJOE3]

OK, I'll admit that the picture was a little young of his. I had to stare at the face a few times to insure that it was him. The middle of the face said it was the same person so I ran with it.

Let's look at a few others:



What I'm seeing from his Pirates years was that he was a lot less bulky on the thighs, arms, chest and his head is definitely smaller. To me, when your head looks larger relative to your body and you've added about 40 lbs or so, then to me, your head size has increased.

If his head size had stayed the same, or at least looked about the same proportionately, I could say fine, but when your head looks larger and your body is much bigger, I have to wonder about things.

I've known people who were much larger at age 40 and in better shape than when they were 21 or so. Then again, people who were in prime shape at 21 may have also gone downhill when they approached 40, so it's a 2-way street to me.

Between the jump in performance, the head size and the change in his physique, it's like he's gone from Bill Bixby to the Incredible Hulk. There's just something about Barry Bonds' 2001-present career that I don't really believe is for real and clean, as he'd claimed.

I don't even consider the pictures because doubters will say there were others that over the years packed on weight.

There were others who gained in size but none, no one after the age of 35 put up a four year peak that rivals any four year peak put up by Babe Ruth and Ted Williams when they were in their prime years younger than Barry.

How could a hitter's slugging average for 4 (.809) seasons after the age of 35 be 242 points higher than his previous career (.567) slugging. How did he almost cut in half his AB/HR ratio for those four seasons compared to his earlier career.

Skeptics will say I'm comparing to small a sample the years 2001-2004 to 1986-2000. Four years is a significant time period a big enough sample.

Any wonder why eybrows were raised late in Barry's career, I'm not surprised.

[Brian McKenna]

Any wonder why eybrows were raised late in Barry's career, I'm not surprised.

A similar argument could be made concerning Clemens as well.

[Mattingly]

A similar argument could be made concerning Clemens as well.
You mean when he'd gone from the Yanks and the AL East to the non-DH Houston Astros?

If you feel that such a comparison can be made, would you please care to make it?

[brett]

Brett - I never heard of anything about Bonds using in 94. The allegations are that he started using steroids sometime in 1999 because he was jealous of Mcgwire and Sosa in 98. Supposedly he tested positive in 2000.

I don't think he did, but I have heard some retrospectives opinions that he may have.

Actually I think that around '94 there was a surge of steroid use in the majors.

[SHOELESSJOE3]

A similar argument could be made concerning Clemens as well.

I don't see Clemens going onto another planet like Barry did late in his career.
It was like Barry was in another league. I don't deny Clemens and some others are suspect. Who can say what names will come out of that steroid investigation.

[MyDogSparty]

Who can say what names will come out of that steroid investigation.

Wouldn't it be amazing if Bonds WASN'T named in Mitchell's report.

[dl4060]

I don't see Clemens going onto another planet like Barry did late in his career.
It was like Barry was in another league. I don't deny Clemens and some others are suspect. Who can say what names will come out of that steroid investigation.

I agree on all counts. While it would not shock me if something came out about Clemens, he did not have seasons which were way out of whack with the rest of his career after turning 35, which Bonds did.

[Skin & Bones]

I agree on all counts. While it would not shock me if something came out about Clemens, he did not have seasons which were way out of whack with the rest of his career after turning 35, which Bonds did.

Well, no player did. So if Bonds late career success is the standard set for juicers, then he is the only juicer. Clemens still was one of the two best older pitchers in MLB history ( The other being Randy Johnson ).

[Skin & Bones]

You mean when he'd gone from the Yanks and the AL East to the non-DH Houston Astros?

If you feel that such a comparison can be made, would you please care to make it?

Clemens success as an older pitcher started with Toronto. That said, I don't know if he juiced, nor do I care.

[dl4060]

Well, no player did. So if Bonds late career success is the standard set for juicers, then he is the only juicer. Clemens still was one of the two best older pitchers in MLB history ( The other being Randy Johnson ).

I did not say Bonds was the standard, and that in order to be a juicer one had to have that type of out of whack success. What was made pretty clear in my post was that having that type of completely out of character success at that age makes it pretty difficult to believe someone was not juicing. Nowhere did I imply that in order to be a juicer one had to have that type of success. I never said that not having that type of success indicated that one was steroid free, or that steroid use would inevitably lead to that level of success. I also clearly stated that I would not be shocked if Clemens was juicing.

[SHOELESSJOE3]

I did not say Bonds was the standard, and that in order to be a juicer one had to have that type of out of whack success. What was made pretty clear in my post was that having that type of completely out of character success at that age makes it pretty difficult to believe someone was not juicing. Nowhere did I imply that in order to be a juicer one had to have that type of success. I never said that not having that type of success indicated that one was steroid free, or that steroid use would inevitably lead to that level of success. I also clearly stated that I would not be shocked if Clemens was juicing.

True on both counts. Steroids can really give a boost to some users, others not.
Barry had all kinds of talent right from the start. A legit Barry is probably better than some steroid users.

Comparison, Gaylord Perry. Mention his name and spit ball comes in to the mix. Probably because he like Bonds put up some great numbers in his career. There had to be some so so pitchers also suspect and throwing the occasional wet one, but who cares about them.It's true Barry is disliked by many and that plays into the whole deal with Barry. But it's also true the he has that target on his back because he exploded and started rewriting the record book at a late stage in his career.

Not to condone Perry's tactics but I wonder how many wet ones he threw, even one makes him a rule breaker. He often said that just the thought of him wetting one up had the hitter thinking, to his advantage. To those who may not have seen him pitch, on every pitch brushing his hair and even his eyebrows where many accused him of having a substance hidden and then applying it to the ball.

How many wet one did he really throw. I believe he got caught one time and at that time he was in the game for 20 years, correct me if wrong. TV cameras with instant replay and slo-mo, opposing hitters, the opposing bench, the first and third base coaches and the umps all eyes on this guy and they manage to catch him one time in 20 years. He had to be one heck of a cheater.

[FatAngel]

No one has ever shown that taking ANY banned substance, from greenies to HGH to 'roids to cocaine to anything else that comes down the pike over the last 150 years, has ever improved a player's performance on the field. No one has shown that the strength increase that results from taking a banned substance cannot be achieved through a legal nutritional regimen and weight training.


Bonds did not hit a single home run that went further than 450 feet prior to 1999. He has about 20 since.

On a certain level it is pretty easy to tell if somebody gained his strength with or without banned substances, because the width of the wrist and knee joints correlates with the genetic strength limit.
Bonds´ muscles are way too big for his joints.

[Brian McKenna]

No one has ever shown that taking ANY banned substance, from greenies to HGH to 'roids to cocaine to anything else that comes down the pike over the last 150 years, has ever improved a player's performance on the field. No one has shown that the strength increase that results from taking a banned substance cannot be achieved through a legal nutritional regimen and weight training.


It doesn't take a genius to look at body builders, pro wrestlers and the like and see that indeed banned substances have made a huge effect. Olympic competition has been seriously alter since the first steroid usage in - I believe - 1956.

[MudvilleMike]

Bonds did not hit a single home run that went further than 450 feet prior to 1999. He has about 20 since.


There's no doubt that he's enhanced/cheated. But let's also not forget that he won 3 MVP awards before 1999. The guy has so much skill and talent, it's beyond belief.

[Mattingly]

There's no doubt that he's enhanced/cheated. But let's also not forget that he won 3 MVP awards before 1999. The guy has so much skill and talent, it's beyond belief.
All the more reason why I can't help but wonder why he did this to himself, which may end up throwing his career down the toilet and leaving him with more very serious doubters than anything else.

Unlike others once they've retired, I don't see him as making lots of money as a "meet & greet" type of person, making very profitable speeches or the cards & trades shows. Maybe I'm speaking where I shouldn't, but wouldn't a player have to at least be popular in order to do those things?

From today's NY Daily News:

Editorials: Junk Bonds (http://www.nydailynews.com/opinions/2007/11/17/2007-11-17_editorials_junk_bonds.html)

Earlier this month, Barry Bonds threatened to boycott his Baseball Hall of Fame induction ceremony if the Cooperstown museum dared display his record-breaking 756th home run ball with an asterisk, as many fans had suggested.

"There's no such thing as an asterisk in baseball," Bonds pronounced with typical arrogance.

Now, thankfully, he may never be inducted. Which would be good for the sport he has sullied with lies and steroids. Make that "allegedly" sullied. Thus far, Bonds has only been indicted on perjury and obstruction of justice charges for, the feds allege, lying to a grand jury that investigated steroids trafficking by BALCO, an outfit in San Francisco.

Bonds' lawyer says Bonds is innocent. Legal proceedings will determine whether prosecutors meet the burden of proving beyond a reasonable doubt that Bonds lied when he denied using steroids, at least knowingly. If the government makes its case, Bonds will wind up playing catch in a prison exercise yard.

In the court of public opinion, Bonds already stands fairly convicted. No reasonable person can doubt that he artificially enhanced his performance. The man's head is the size of Delaware. Are we supposed to believe his gargantuan proportions were due to a post-post-post-post-pubescent growth spurt? Or more fiber in his diet?

The charges deepen the shame of Major League Baseball's steroid era, that time when the lords of the game and the union representing players looked the other way as balls flew unnaturally out of the parks. How exciting! And how destructive.

Steroids have now been banned. And drug testing has been tightened. And MLB has hired a team of lawyers to investigate the whole sorry affair. All of which would not have been necessary had baseball shown zero tolerance toward cheating.

Anyone who loves America's pastime should be relieved the feds have come down hard on Bonds. This is not bad for the sport. It may well represent a cleansing. Much as the 1919 Black Sox scandal cleansed it of unsavory links to professional gamblers.

As for Bonds, he is an unpleasant, cartoonish character who appears not to have had the sense to come clean under oath, as several other players did. He is a free agent now, and his career is likely over. It must be over. As for the future, the rule must be: Get indicted into the hall of shame and you will not get inducted into the Hall of Fame.

[Brian McKenna]

Unlike others once they've retired, I don't see him as making lots of money as a "meet & greet" type of person, making very profitable speeches or the cards & trades shows. Maybe I'm speaking where I shouldn't, but wouldn't a player have to at least be popular in order to do those things?


Yes and no.
-he could make a mint in CA
-he could pull the old DiMaggio cash cow with his autograph
-he could mellow in time and become generally more agreeable

But then again he doesn't need cash - though it's always good to bring in some for extra incidentals like:

-paying his trainer Anderson for keeping quiet
-travel and secret paramour expenses

[Mattingly]

Yes and no.
-he could make a mint in CA
-he could pull the old DiMaggio cash cow with his autograph
-he could mellow in time and become generally more agreeable

But then again he doesn't need cash - though it's always good to bring in some for extra incidentals like:

-paying his trainer Anderson for keeping quiet
-travel and secret paramour expenses
In that case, who in California would want his autograph? If he's so popular there, then why wasn't he signed with Los Angeles, San Diego, Oakland or Anaheim? At least the AL teams, since his fielding has dropped, forcing him to become a DH.

Do you feel that many people in California (not just San Fran) like him and find him very popular?

Joe DiMaggio, unlike Barry Bonds, had a huge amount of popularity, despite being standoffish. You could never under any circumstances discuss Marilyn Monroe, but he wasn't known as arrogant and he certainly wasn't strongly considered a cheater by attaining records by false methods.

I'd need to see some evidence of Barry mellowing. He'd have to change his name to Willie Mays before that could happen. His head size would have to shrink, he'd have to admit to something. He keeps denying every single thing. Heck, even Jason Giambi admitted he'd used, although not directly. Barry Bonds just acts like nothing happened and wonders aloud why people doubt his achievements. Does he really feel that he's pulled a fast one upon us and that people don't have a right to be very suspicious?

Everybody needs cash. The more you make, the more you spend. If you make $300/week, you may live in a furnished room, at home with parents or with a roommate. If you make $3,000/week, you can have a much larger place.

Bonds has made about $65-70m over the past 4 seasons. Unless he's just sent those checks to the bank and haven't touched it (which I find highly doubtful), his lifestyle will force him to spend money.

He's got lots of legal fees, none of which is funded by anyone else, to my knowledge. As soon as he'd been accused, between a PR person and a lawyer, as well as any money he *MAY* have spent to keep Greg Anderson from testifying against him, he's definitely got expenses.

I don't see those expenses, as well as anything he spends upon friends & family, going away. Without a big cash cow, which he could easily have had right now by being a consultant or on-air personality for ESPN or something, he'd have made lots of money with his mighty maple bat hung up.

If a major sports media company hires him, such as ESPN, Fox Sports, SI, Sporting News, etc, I'll retract this. However, without any large degree of popularity, I don't see this happening. To me, there are 50 states in the USA and you have to be in more than just the most populous one (CA has about 20 million people).

Kudos to him if he can turn his persona around, but unless he's willing to liberally grant his time to charity, kids, regular folks who just want to say, "Hey, Barry, how are ya?" I don't see that happening.

[sandlot]

Let's remember that we're talking about Barry Bonds and alleged use of PEDs in baseball. Serious as the issue is to sport lovers, we are not talking here about O.J. Simpson and a murder case. I mean, G. Gordon Liddy can appear on Fear Factor and be treated like a hero, but Barry couldn't become a sports analyst? Tyson can do prison time and become a World Champion? Anybody remember the villification of Mohammed Ali, who was stripped of his title for saying that "no Viet Cong never did nothin' to me"? He came back.

Ali has even become a hugely beloved person. But how many absolute cretins in our history have also come around to seeing the light and then been welcomed back into polite society? Older BBFers might remember, for example, Jeb Magruder. Getting directly back to baseball, there are people today -- even in these forums -- who are calling for the restitution of Shoeless Joe Jackson's good name and his induction into the HOF. Ditto for Pete Rose.

A nation that will watch Ozzie Osbourne's dysfunctional family is more than well equipped to accept Barry Bonds into its living rooms.

[Einstein'sCurve]

OK, I'll admit that the picture was a little young of his. I had to stare at the face a few times to insure that it was him. The middle of the face said it was the same person so I ran with it.


His rookie card listed him around 185 or so. He's up to 235-240 now which the pics seem to verify, an increase of 30% body mass of muscle.

A few years back I was interested in weight gains and natural body building as it applied to modern baseball. I'm fully mature, past prime, but of low body fat and great shape, not skinny nor musclebound.

Plus I don't lift weights except briefly for 6 months just before I turned 15, the BC years. I had studied the subject a bit and just went at it old school style in the middle of winter so I wouldn't get all sweaty as it takes some time to do all those sets and I had minor chores to tend to. Alternated 2 routines, 3 days each, 6 days a week, and rested fully on Sundays. Reps near max, 6-10, generally 4-5 sets, all on my old Healthways free weights barbell. Worked every part of the body, and in 4 months time I had gained 10%. No steroids, no trainer, no fat, just muscle and strength. Normal diet with an extra portion of meat. I could also feel the testosterone pumping around me overtime, so much so that my normal walk gait became somewhat of a swaggering flex in spite of me trying not too. Great experience, but now I only lift 2-3x a month, nothing serious, just enough to keep some muscle toned. Still, I got invaluble training experience for context.

So, I'm speculating that as a younger man, lifting as part of regular training for much of the year under a trainer, eating properly, no supplements, I could surely add 20% body muscle mass in a couple of years. Don't know about the 30% as I would be so unnaturally muscled up as to be uncomfortable, but I guess it's doable, but I just don't see it as functional.

BTW, Barry graduated with a degree in Criminology, a bit of ironic foreshadowing.

[digglahhh]

His rookie card listed him around 185 or so. He's up to 235-240 now which the pics seem to verify, an increase of 30% body mass of muscle.

A few years back I was interested in weight gains and natural body building as it applied to modern baseball. I'm fully mature, past prime, but of low body fat and great shape, not skinny nor musclebound.

Plus I don't lift weights except briefly for 6 months just before I turned 15, the BC years. I had studied the subject a bit and just went at it old school style in the middle of winter so I wouldn't get all sweaty as it takes some time to do all those sets and I had minor chores to tend to. Alternated 2 routines, 3 days each, 6 days a week, and rested fully on Sundays. Reps near max, 6-10, generally 4-5 sets, all on my old Healthways free weights barbell. Worked every part of the body, and in 4 months time I had gained 10%. No steroids, no trainer, no fat, just muscle and strength. Normal diet with an extra portion of meat. I could also feel the testosterone pumping around me overtime, so much so that my normal walk gait became somewhat of a swaggering flex in spite of me trying not too. Great experience, but now I only lift 2-3x a month, nothing serious, just enough to keep some muscle toned. Still, I got invaluble training experience for context.

So, I'm speculating that as a younger man, lifting as part of regular training for much of the year under a trainer, eating properly, no supplements, I could surely add 20% body muscle mass in a couple of years. Don't know about the 30% as I would be so unnaturally muscled up as to be uncomfortable, but I guess it's doable, but I just don't see it as functional.

BTW, Barry graduated with a degree in Criminology, a bit of ironic foreshadowing.

I am not part of the tar and feather crowd, but...

You greatly increases your strength through training at a time in your life where you a)were not already in elite physical condition; and b)experiencing the natural growth and strengthening of the body that accompanies puberty.

Surely, you can't be comparing this to Bonds. Bonds was an elite athlete and grown man, several years into his career. After that he transformed his body. I'm not saying it COULDN'T have been natural, but your anecdote doesn't make the possibility any more plausible.

The more in shape you are, the most difficult it is to improve on that level. If we both took a test, and you got an 80, and I got a 40 - it would be a lot easier for me to improve my performance by 20% (unless of course it was a mental health, or sobriety test).

[Einstein'sCurve]

Bonds was an elite athlete and grown man, several years into his career. After that he transformed his body. I'm not saying it COULDN'T have been natural, but your anecdote doesn't make the possibility any more plausible.

The more in shape you are, the most difficult it is to improve on that level. If we both took a test, and you got an 80, and I got a 40 - it would be a lot easier for me to improve my performance by 20% (unless of course it was a mental health, or sobriety test).

** You make a valid point, except that you missed the part where I stated I'm in great shape.

Bonds is a baseball player, not a decathlete. I'd be willing to bet I am at least his equal in a comprehensive physical test if not better than his equal. I, however, lack his amazing eyesight that allows him to be the extraordinary batter that he is.

The test is valid within the parameters I outlined because neither he nor I were weightlifters. Maybe you haven't studied the subject as much as I, but many players since the 70s have picked up weight lifting and added on muscle and strength, in spite of being "prime elite athletes."

[dl4060]

I am not part of the tar and feather crowd, but...


Surely, you can't be comparing this to Bonds. Bonds was an elite athlete and grown man, several years into his career. After that he transformed his body. I'm not saying it COULDN'T have been natural, but your anecdote doesn't make the possibility any more plausible.

.

Bonds was an elite athlete, but he may not have been working at his maximum level of strength potential. He may have lifted more for muscular endurance, then at a certain point decided that he wanted to use lower reps and build bulk. People can vary their training, just because someone is an elite athlete does not mean they are at the maximum of their capacity in every facet of physical prowess. For instance, let us say that at that point Bonds had decided to train like a distance runner, he would have been able to make great strides in his mile or 5k times, even though he was already an elite athlete, by focusing his training differently. I do not find Bonds' development from 1986 to 2000 to be implausible. I think he was far from his muscle mass potential in 1986, and probably in 1995 as well.

Having said all that, I have almost no doubt that he took steroids.

Einstein's Curve, I don't know how great Barry's eyesight is, his advantages are probably more along the lines of hand eye coordination, hand speed, reflexes, balance, timing....Athletic abilities which are very hard to measure, but are the core of what makes one person a good player and another a great one. If one compared George Brett and Bo Jackson I have not doubt Jackson would rank higher in strength and speed, but that Brett would be better in many of those other qualities I just outlined.

[digglahhh]

** You make a valid point, except that you missed the part where I stated I'm in great shape.

Bonds is a baseball player, not a decathlete. I'd be willing to bet I am at least his equal in a comprehensive physical test if not better than his equal. I, however, lack his amazing eyesight that allows him to be the extraordinary batter that he is.

The test is valid within the parameters I outlined because neither he nor I were weightlifters. Maybe you haven't studied the subject as much as I, but many players since the 70s have picked up weight lifting and added on muscle and strength, in spite of being "prime elite athletes."

My apologies, I misread your initial post. I thought you were talking about weight and muscle gain you made at 15. Re-reading it, it seems clearly my error - though the sentence about having "minor chores" to do did almost throw me off again.