Split Upper Decks...

[hsnterprize]

Have you noticed some of the newest places either being built or currently standing have some kind of a split upper deck? From what I understand, that sort-of allows fans in the upper concourses of stadia to see games in the concourse much like those in the lower bowled sections. Here's what I mean...

http://www.ballparksofbaseball.com/nl/citizensbankmain.jpg

Citizens Bank Park, Philadelphia...

http://washington.nationals.mlb.com/was/images/ballpark/ph_aerial_1024x663.jpg

New Washington Nationals Stadium...

http://www.twinsballpark2010.com/_resources/model_preview5.jpg

New Minnesota Twins Stadium...

http://www.stadiumpage.com/future/yankee7.jpg

New Yankee Stadium...

http://www.ballparksofbaseball.com/nl/busch902.JPG

Busch Stadium III...

So is this the start of another "trend" in baseball stadium design? What say you?

[Lafferty Daniel]

http://www.twinsballpark2010.com/_resources/ballpark_longitudinal_big.jpg

The lowest level of the split upper decks give owners another reason to increase ticket prices. It essentially becomes the 'club level' of the upper deck.

[hsnterprize]

That's a good assessment. I never thought of it that way. In that case, here's a current ballpark many folks fawn over that should have a split upper deck...

http://baseballguru.com/joemock/PNC60.jpg

PNC Park in Pittsburgh

It's a beautiful place...no doubt about it. I've said over and over again that if the Pirates were a decent team, this place would be considered one of the best ballparks in baseball. And why not...it's a 2-tiered stadium that offers a picture-postcard view of downtown Pittsburgh. It's almost considered the east coast version of AT&T Park because of it being near the Allegheny River. Having said that...have you noticed how "big" the upper deck at PNC is? Reason is the first few rows are the stadium's "club level". Those seats push the regular upper deck further away from the field. But, because of how the place is designed and located, not too many people point that out. The "eye candy" of the downtown and river views make that detail not-too-important to a lot of people.

[machpost]

For Pirate fans, I guess it's nice to have something to look at when the team on the field isn't worth paying attention to :D

[Astros]

Splitting the upper decks like what we've seen in the latest ballparks looks like a modification of what was done early in the decade. Instead of walking through a tunnel from the concourse to a staircase that takes you to the upper stands, the staircase is moved to the concourse and the open area allows a view of the field much like a lower concourse would. At Minute Maid Park you can walk all the way around the main concourse, with the exception of the batter's eye area, and see the field. However the upper concourse features concessions and restrooms that sit under the stands facing outward and away from the field, thus creating the tunnels you have to walk out of to get to the seats. By having these staircases in front of the upper seating (or View Deck as it is called at MMP), you block the view of some of the best front row seats in these areas with a plexi-partition and the people who walk up these steps to get to their seats. With a glance at what they are doing in Washington, St. Louis, etc. this problem seems to be eliminated. You still have an upper terrace and upper stands area that compose the entire deck. You now just have an opening instead of the brick wall MMP has to see the field. And yes, this also probably allows the feeling that your seats in the lower portion of the upper deck are superior and feel justified in paying a little more to sit there.

[nymdan]

Citi Field, too.
http://img521.imageshack.us/img521/6784/citifieldconstruction92qs8.jpg

Here's what the view looks like from the concourse at Citizens Bank Park:
http://www.baseballpilgrimages.com/national/citizensbankpark2.jpg

[Elvis]

http://www.baseballpilgrimages.com/national/citizensbankpark2.jpg

I like how they say the split upper decks allow views of the "field" from the concourses, when you can only see the field if you're right up against the last row.

[nymdan]

I like how they say the split upper decks allow views of the "field" from the concourses, when you can only see the field if you're right up against the last row.

Even if you can't see anything, it provides for a more open feel... and what do you give up for it? An upper deck that would be 10-15 feet lower if it had no gap? I don't see much of a downside to this design.

It's also good for handicapped seating, in that you can put wheelchair sections right behind the last row of the bottom upper deck.

[Sean O]

Even if you can't see anything, it provides for a more open feel... and what do you give up for it? An upper deck that would be 10-15 feet lower if it had no gap? I don't see much of a downside to this design.

It's also good for handicapped seating, in that you can put wheelchair sections right behind the last row of the bottom upper deck.

It's not just a 15' difference, which is bad enough, it also adds another few degrees to the rake of the upper deck.

The worst effect of the split-level upper deck is on the new Yankee Stadium, which is defined by its weight. Instead, they get a flimsy, porous structure that accomplishes nothing. The fact that the upper deck is already dramatically farther away is bad enough.

[stlfan]

At Busch III the first row of the second tier is pretty much on top of the last row of the 1st tier. This design actually puts the fan closer than the conventional construction where the row would be pushed back because of the room needed for the walkway.

[pudgie_child]

The new trend of having an upper deck concourse open to the field is one of the worst developments in recent stadium design. It forces the upper half of the deck to be higher and requires a steeper rake for the upper deck. Furthermore, as mentioned in a previous post, you generally can't see the playing field when you're waiting in line at an upper deck concession stand, so what's the great benefit to the design? So the cost of having an open concourse is to push the seats in the upper deck higher and further from the field. Personally, I'd rather have a seat that is closer to the field than a concourse that gives me a view, not of the field, mind you, but of the other seats. I'm glad that this design wasn't employed at my local "retro ballpark," Petco Park.

[Sean O]

The new trend of having an upper deck concourse open to the field is one of the worst developments in recent stadium design. It forces the upper half of the deck to be higher and requires a steeper rake for the upper deck. Furthermore, as mentioned in a previous post, you generally can't see the playing field when you're waiting in line at an upper deck concession stand, so what's the great benefit to the design? So the cost of having an open concourse is to push the seats in the upper deck higher and further from the field. Personally, I'd rather have a seat that is closer to the field than a concourse that gives me a view, not of the field, mind you, but of the other seats. I'm glad that this design wasn't employed at my local "retro ballpark," Petco Park.

Another psychological aspect that is largely being ignored is known as "embrace and release." When you walk through the dank corridors of Yankee Stadium or Wrigley, those narrow openings frame your arrival to the park. When you step out into the classics, it's like you're being shot out of a cannon, when you can finally see the green grass and the blue sky and the sheer openness of the park. When everything is completely open, you just sort of stumble out into the same place you've been all along, and the moment loses its lustre.

I believe there should be a certain separation between the interior and exterior space of a ballpark. Openness is nice, and I do agree that there should be a place to walk clean around the park above the lower deck. But for the upper deck, it should be a baseball-only zone first and foremost, and this means you have to step out of the immediate park in order to get something or hit the restrooms. Thus, the return to the ballpark is that much more exciting.

HoK, like 'em or hate 'em, cares nothing for psychology or the tried-and-true construction methods of hundreds of years of architectural history. This, of course, is the biggest irony: they use the superficial treatments of the past (red brick and green steel) without understanding why those old parks affect us as they do. It's an incredible combination, which unfortunately leads to disposable crapitecture.

[Lafferty Daniel]

Guys, please correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't a split deck like this actually push the top level closer to the field?

http://www.twinsballpark2010.com/_resources/ballpark_longitudinal_big.jpg

[Sean O]

http://img89.imageshack.us/img89/4803/mincompsb0.jpg

The blue dot is where the seat would be without the split level. All told, you lose a few lateral feet, about about 10 vertical feet. It's closer without the split-level.

[Lafferty Daniel]

http://img89.imageshack.us/img89/4803/mincompsb0.jpg

The blue dot is where the seat would be without the split level. All told, you lose a few lateral feet, about about 10 vertical feet. It's closer without the split-level.

That makes sense, so are there really any benefits to the split deck? Seems like it just gives owners a reason to increase prices on the lower section of the upper deck.

[hsnterprize]

The new trend of having an upper deck concourse open to the field is one of the worst developments in recent stadium design. It forces the upper half of the deck to be higher and requires a steeper rake for the upper deck. Furthermore, as mentioned in a previous post, you generally can't see the playing field when you're waiting in line at an upper deck concession stand, so what's the great benefit to the design? So the cost of having an open concourse is to push the seats in the upper deck higher and further from the field. Personally, I'd rather have a seat that is closer to the field than a concourse that gives me a view, not of the field, mind you, but of the other seats. I'm glad that this design wasn't employed at my local "retro ballpark," Petco Park.I'm changing the subject for this post, but just for the record, I don't consider Petco Park a "retro" kind of park. I think the way the place is designed is just fine for San Diego...with it's tan and dark blue color scheme and lots of open areas. I'm glad your place didn't follow the "red brick, dark green seat" motif so many other parks have.

Personally, I think that trend is done. Maybe these new places in Washington, Minnesota, and Oakland will set a new bar...that is if Cincinnati and San Diego haven't done so already.

[skobabe8]

I dont think I like the split UDs. I like uninterrupted masses of people in stadiums as opposed to alot of different sections and breaks.

[marlins739]

I like how the split upper deck looks in most places, but I don't think they should have done it at Yankee Stadium. It makes it look like there are 4 decks instead of the 3 they should have. Even in the new parks that don't have a split upper deck, they all seem to still have the look because of the way they make the entrances to the upper deck in the middle of a section, with stairs up on each side to the aisles. You can see that in the PNC Park picture above, and a close-up at Minute Maid Park

[StanTheMan]

That makes sense, so are there really any benefits to the split deck? Seems like it just gives owners a reason to increase prices on the lower section of the upper deck.

The fellow in the wheelchair in the crosssection thinks the split upper deck is fantastic.

[Sean O]

The fellow in the wheelchair in the crosssection thinks the split upper deck is fantastic.

US Cellular has plenty of wheelchair space, so it's definitely not just a split-thing only. If anything, I figure being shunted underneath the decks, not even with the rest of the fans, would be a negative.

I don't see the benefits.

[spiderico]

I dont think I like the split UDs. I like uninterrupted masses of people in stadiums as opposed to alot of different sections and breaks.

Thats what makes Yankee Stadium great. Nothing like being in the upper deck during a huge moment. You feel engulfed by the noise and crowd. It will be greatly missed. No matter how the new one turns out, it will never be the same.

[StanTheMan]

US Cellular has plenty of wheelchair space, so it's definitely not just a split-thing only. If anything, I figure being shunted underneath the decks, not even with the rest of the fans, would be a negative.

I don't see the benefits.

Have you ever sat in a wheelchair section? I have. Sections like those in the cross section provide not only a great view, but are generally unobstructed (as opposed to a wheelchair "space" behind the last row of most sections) especially when fans stand and cheer.

I've been to US Cellular, and althoug I didn't pay attention to their wheelchair options, seats like these are good for those who need them.

They provide a good view, WITHOUT having to pay box seat or lower bowl prices.

[St. Louis 093]

I personally like the split upper deck design. I have been to Busch III and I loved it. It felt more open. I think the only downside is that the stairs come up on the side of the hall to enter the stands from the main concourse. In busch stadium III, the first few seats on the edge of each section on the top deck are obstructed by people walking up the stairs. I like how they did it at Minute Maid. The upper deck is split somewhat, without having seats obstructed on the edge of each section. And there is lots of wheelchair space.

[mrakbaseball]

I like how they say the split upper decks allow views of the "field" from the concourses, when you can only see the field if you're right up against the last row.

Truth. future patrons of NYS, Citi, Twins ballpark, buyer beware.

[J.R.]

I dont think I like the split UDs. I like uninterrupted masses of people in stadiums as opposed to alot of different sections and breaks.

I agree. The SUD invites clutter to the design.

[Cubs1945]

The upper decks in new parks are far enough away. Miller Park allows diasabled seating in the upper deck and it's not a split level upper deck. No upper deck should seat more than 13,000. A good park has 20,000 field level seats, 5,000 bleacher seats, 7,000 club seats, 1,000 suite seats and 12,000 or 13,000 upper deck seats for around 45,000 fans.

[mrakbaseball]

The new trend of having an upper deck concourse open to the field is one of the worst developments in recent stadium design. It forces the upper half of the deck to be higher and requires a steeper rake for the upper deck. Furthermore, as mentioned in a previous post, you generally can't see the playing field when you're waiting in line at an upper deck concession stand, so what's the great benefit to the design? So the cost of having an open concourse is to push the seats in the upper deck higher and further from the field. Personally, I'd rather have a seat that is closer to the field than a concourse that gives me a view, not of the field, mind you, but of the other seats. I'm glad that this design wasn't employed at my local "retro ballpark," Petco Park.

Agreed, the view from a concession stand line shouldn't be given equal priority with the view from an actual seat. Be careful what you wish for Yankees, Mets, Twins fans.

[jerseyyankeefan]

I think the split upper deck basically just creates another ticket price point, rather than have one upper deck with the same ticket prices.

[History Of Baseball Fan]

call me old fashioned, but I don't like the split upper deck at all. It just doesn't look right to split it into 2 small decks just so you can have a view from the concourse.

[LetsGoMets687]

I think the split upper deck basically just creates another ticket price point, rather than have one upper deck with the same ticket prices.

That most certainly is a side benefit. The Yankees seats above the split (NYS) -- $25. Below the split $125.

I prefer the term "crack" upper deck instead of split. The money's in the crack.

[Power Wally]

What do you see when you look through the slit while waiting in line for your hot dog?

The advertising around the scoreboard?

[Yankees12]

What do you see when you look through the slit while waiting in line for your hot dog?

The advertising around the scoreboard?

That's about it.

I hate split upper decks, There's no point to them. They only serve to take away areas where seats can be located, and I think they're ugly.

Some of them, luckily, can be filled in with seats someday. I think CBP falls in this category, and NYS definitely does. But, in stadiums where the bottom of the upper half of the UD overlaps the top of the lower half of the UD, it can't be filled in, except by a wall.

[JMC Bomber]

What do you see when you look through the slit while waiting in line for your hot dog?


You'll see this...

http://www.baseballpilgrimages.com/national/citizensbankpark2.jpg

...except from about 20 feet further back. :shhh:

[marlins739]

I thought it was kind of nice in Philadelphia. The only place I really don't like the idea of a split upper deck is at NYS, where one of the major features of the original was having three decks, with the huge imposing upper deck. Cutting it in half doesn't carry over the same visual effect at all. If they wanted to split the price, they could put a walkway in the middle without splitting it up at NYS

[mrakbaseball]

Imagine how more majestic the frieze would look if there wasn't a split upper deck. The upper deck just looks too small when split.

[btown12]

You'll see this...

http://www.baseballpilgrimages.com/national/citizensbankpark2.jpg

...except from about 20 feet further back. :shhh:

Yeah, the view from the concourse is non-existent...but the split upper deck provides a ton of great standing room areas, and in the case of Philly, a great view of the city...even if it's a distant one. I personally prefer the split upper deck because it doesn't feel closed off and stuffy when there's a big crowd, and you usually get a nice breeze up there on hot days.

[WestSideBomber]

I like the split upper deck in theory. But if the 2 decks are too small, it looks silly. This may be one of the things that GABP does really well. It was one of the first modern stadiums to do the split upper deck, and it turned out really well.

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/195/499110724_f4316dbfa3.jpg?v=0