one more pitch??? [Archive]

leftypitcher934

10-22-2007, 07:18 PM

I am a 15 year old lefty throw a 4 seam curve (kinda like a slurve) and a circle change I have been practicing a cutter but i cannot get a grip that always makes it move. Should i stick to learning a cutter nd if so anyone have a grip that works for me preferably without snapping wrist but if i have to i will. Or if you think i should learn another pitch what should it be??

kylebee

10-22-2007, 11:31 PM

Fastball. Breaking ball. Changeup.

That's all you need.

MCBaseball13

10-23-2007, 12:53 PM

as i righty, i like to mix in some sinkers that run down and in on right handed batters.

you just have to throw it so that it feels like you're finishing with a thumbs down motion.

Chris O'Leary

10-23-2007, 01:56 PM

Xavier&Trin...

10-23-2007, 02:17 PM

Should i stick to learning a cutter nd if so anyone have a grip that works for me preferably without snapping wrist but if i have to i will.

A cutter wont do what you want/need it to do unless there is a certain amount of velocity in place. Continue to work hard on your change, and endlessly experiment with the grip until you find something that is comfortable to you. Stay away from the screwball until you no longer have the ability to get someone out otherwise. Pronation after release is natural, applying forced pronation before release is foolish and dangerous, this should only be used as a last resort.

leftypitcher934

10-23-2007, 03:11 PM

Chris O'Leary

10-23-2007, 03:48 PM

i wanted a moving fastball like a cutter or a sinker or 2 seamer so i could throw a pitch with good velocity and some movement except the 2 seam usually does not move for me and does anyone have any good grips that they have used and that have worked for the cutter 2 seam or sinker?? And if you put more pressure with a certain finger id like to know about that to

Generally, you have to pronate through the release point. However, sometimes finger pressure is enough.

Since you're a lefty, the result will be a pitch that moves out (and maybe down) on righties and in on the hands of lefties like a cutter or slider thrown by a RHP (but without the damage to your elbow).

Chris O'Leary

10-23-2007, 03:50 PM

Stay away from the screwball until you no longer have the ability to get someone out otherwise. Pronation after release is natural, applying forced pronation before release is foolish and dangerous, this should only be used as a last resort.

Nonsense.

You obviously don't understand the logic and physiology of pronation.

A screwball is a great pitch for a LHP because it moves down and away from a RH batter as would a slider thrown by a RH pitcher.

A screwball is even more valuable for a LHP than a RHP.

Xavier&Trin...

10-23-2007, 04:03 PM

Chris O'Leary

10-23-2007, 04:20 PM

Pronation = after release

Early Pronation = screwball = injury + teaching youths = idiotic

Forcing pronation before it is natural is insane, albeit not as insane as MM's delivery theory, but close.

First, please explain why pronation and the screwball are bad. And when doing so, please provide some scientifically-based evidence and not some tired old warning about Carl Hubbell.

Second, if the screwball is so bad, then why is Mike Marshall's arm just fine?

The myth of the evil screwball is one that's been scaring people for 50 years, yet it's just that.

A myth.

Xavier&Trin...

10-23-2007, 04:26 PM

Please dont teach pitchers screwballs.

Your arguements for its saftey are silly.

Pronation----YES-----AFTER RELEASE----video proves this-----SCREWBALL = early unnatural pronation. Encouraging this is god awful advice. Do more reasearch.

Gotta love how MM's arm is OK so the screwball is all good!

tigers_bball713

10-23-2007, 04:29 PM

4fb, 2fb, Chg, Crv.

Chris O'Leary

10-23-2007, 04:30 PM

leftypitcher934

10-23-2007, 06:13 PM

ne one have a sinker?

MCBaseball13

10-23-2007, 06:53 PM

ne one have a sinker?

works great, hitters swing over the top of it all the time.

Postblank

10-23-2007, 07:24 PM

Please dont teach pitchers screwballs.

Your arguements for its saftey are silly.I throw screwballs everyday and my arm is fine. So is everyone here at the Marshall facility. Your baseless assertions are in fact what is silly.

Pronation----YES-----AFTER RELEASE----video proves this-----SCREWBALL = early unnatural pronation. Encouraging this is god awful advice.I'd love to see this video that proves the ill effects of early pronation.

Do more reasearch.Mike Marshall's been doing research on how pitching affects the arm for 40 years now. How much more research would satisfy you?

Gotta love how MM's arm is OK so the screwball is all good!And everyone he's taught to throw the screwball is fine too. Must be a massive coincidence, since it's well documented that everyone here is a genetic freak.

Chris O'Leary

10-23-2007, 08:06 PM

ne one have a sinker?

Throw it with the 2 seams, with the fingers on the right side of the seams, and pronate (pour out the can of soda) as you pull on the seams through the release point. The ball will sink and, since you're a LHP, move slightly outside.

It's nasty.

kylebee

10-23-2007, 08:20 PM

Throw it with the 2 seams, with the fingers on the right side of the seams, and pronate (pour out the can of soda) as you pull on the seams through the release point. The ball will sink and, since you're a LHP, move slightly outside.

It's nasty.

These are good cues (pouring out the can of soda is an interesting one). If they don't work for you or you aren't "getting it," try thinking about the Carlos Gomez cue for the sinker - get inside the baseball and pull DOWN.

Xavier&Trin...

10-23-2007, 09:01 PM

Please explain why the screwball is dangerous.

I thought you did a pretty good job when you described Carl Hubble.

Xavier&Trin...

10-23-2007, 09:15 PM

throw screwballs everyday and my arm is fine. So is everyone here at the Marshall facility. Your baseless assertions are in fact what is silly.

Do me a favor and ask MM what caused Carl Hubbles arm to be disfigured.

I'd love to see this video that proves the ill effects of early pronation.

Didnt say I had video to prove "ill effects". But I do have video that shows pronation AFTER release.

Mike Marshall's been doing research on how pitching affects the arm for 40 years now.

40 years, and the best he can come up with is a head jerking no lower body no velo delivery! I believe parts of his delivery work for injury prevention, but only because it removes the risk of throwing hard.

And everyone he's taught to throw the screwball is fine too. Must be a massive coincidence, since it's well documented that everyone here is a genetic freak.

Try throwing a screwball hard, instead of those 58 mph lolli-pops I saw Sparks throwing in there. With the velos that I saw on the Sparks video MM could ice down a pitchers arm, and then have him immediatly start throwing splitty's and no one would get hurt. Throw one (screwball) 78 or 80 mph and see how your arm feels, then throw a 100 of them at that speed and tell me how your arm feels.

Postblank

10-23-2007, 09:19 PM

These are good cues (pouring out the can of soda is an interesting one). If they don't work for you or you aren't "getting it," try thinking about the Carlos Gomez cue for the sinker - get inside the baseball and pull DOWN.

Don't pull. If you pronate your release, you should push behind the ball. Really, you should do that anyway, but whatever. Asking a traditional pitching to add something non-traditional is like asking a baseball dad to unbond his eyes from the radar gun.

Chris O'Leary

10-23-2007, 09:24 PM

I thought you did a pretty good job when you described Carl Hubble.

If the screwball is what did Carl Hubbell in, then why didn't Mike Marshall experience the same fate? You're not controlling all the variables. There could be any number of explanations for what (supposedly) happened to his arm.

Also, Hubbell's arm looks fine in this photo...

http://static.howstuffworks.com/gif/carl-hubbell-hof.jpg

Hubbell also threw into his 40s.

Try again.

kylebee

10-23-2007, 09:30 PM

Don't pull. If you pronate your release, you should push behind the ball. Really, you should do that anyway, but whatever. Asking a traditional pitching to add something non-traditional is like asking a baseball dad to unbond his eyes from the radar gun.

We're talking about the same thing. I prefer the term "pull down" because of the negative connotation that "push" gets.

Postblank

10-23-2007, 09:33 PM

Do me a favor and ask MM what caused Carl Hubbles arm to be disfigured.Sure thing.

Didnt say I had video to prove "ill effects". But I do have video that shows pronation AFTER release.Misread that. I'd like to see your proof of early pronation being bad though.

40 years, and the best he can come up with is a head jerking no lower body no velo delivery! I believe parts of his delivery work for injury prevention, but only because it removes the risk of throwing hard.We've got guys that throw hard, I don't know how many times I need to reiterate this. Striding doesn't add anything to velocity and, if anything, takes some away. Sorry it doesn't look as nice on a baseball card.

Try throwing a screwball hardUhh, I do.
instead of those 58 mph lolli-pops I saw Sparks throwing in there. With the velos that I saw on the Sparks video MM could ice down a pitchers arm, and then have him immediatly start throwing splitty's and no one would get hurt. Throw one (screwball) 78 or 80 mph and see how your arm feels, then throw a 100 of them at that speed and tell me how your arm feels.Our screwballs are designed as -20 pitches, just like our curveballs. As such, someone would need to throw around 100mph to throw Marshall's 80mph screwball to design. We had a guy that throws 95, but he's a flake that would rather live a life of ease.

Xavier&Trin...

10-23-2007, 09:38 PM

If the screwball is what did Carl Hubbell in, then why didn't Mike Marshall experience the same fate? You're not controlling all the variables. There could be any number of explanations for what (supposedly) happened to his arm.

Also, Hubbell's arm looks fine in this photo...

http://static.howstuffworks.com/gif/carl-hubbell-hof.jpg

Hubbell also threw into his 40s.

Try again.

Ok, Ill try again.....hmmm, how about Carl Hubble having elbow surgery in 1938 because his arm was permenantly twisted inward. Still sound safe Chris? At least consider not teaching screwballs to youth pitchers. Just consider it.

Now you can "Try again."

Xavier&Trin...

10-23-2007, 09:43 PM

We've got guys that throw hard, I don't know how many times I need to reiterate this. Striding doesn't add anything to velocity and, if anything, takes some away. Sorry it doesn't look as nice on a baseball card.

Post a video of one guy throwing 90mph fast ball...just one.

Your wrong about the in-line stuff. Pitching goes around an arc...its more deceptive, much better velo, and easier to throw harder.

Location, movement, deception...

Postblank

10-23-2007, 09:59 PM

Post a video of one guy throwing 90mph fast ball...just one.

Your wrong about the in-line stuff. Pitching goes around an arc...its more deceptive, much better velo, and easier to throw harder.

Location, movement, deception...

I don't think he's ever stuck around long enough for the exit videos, he wasn't in the last group's batch. A fellow new arrival used to throw in the mid 80's traditionally, I think he'll be in the 90's by the end of the training. He's a genetic freak.

I'm afraid you're the one who is wrong. If you wanted to get a fridge from point A to point B, would you get behind it and push it or pull from in front of it in a semicircle? If you analyze it objectively, it doesn't make any sense. Applying force anywhere on a ball other then in a straight line in a waste of force, it's logic.

Chris O'Leary

10-23-2007, 10:15 PM

Ok, Ill try again.....hmmm, how about Carl Hubble having elbow surgery in 1938 because his arm was permenantly twisted inward. Still sound safe Chris? At least consider not teaching screwballs to youth pitchers. Just consider it.

Now you can "Try again."

Are you sure it's the screwball that caused his problems?

Please explain, in technical terms, why the screwball would cause this kind of injury.

XV84

10-23-2007, 10:40 PM

Do me a favor and ask MM what caused Carl Hubbles arm to be disfigured.

Maybe he had mechanical flaws? Gee could that be the answer? It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that out. Maybe he had forearm flyout? Late forearm turnover? What was his arm slot? How did he follow through? What was his conditioning? Where was his release point? Is he the only guy to ever have arm troubles? How many pitchers DID NOT throw a screwball and had arm troubles? Could it have been not pronating his curveball? If Mike Marshall saw this picture of Hubbell's curveball release, he will say it's because of this supinated curveball release.

http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa173/xvue84/hubbellcurve1.jpg

Bringing up Hubbell doesn't validate any point you have regarding the screwball.

Xavier&Trin...

10-24-2007, 06:18 AM

PBIf you wanted to get a fridge from point A to point B, would you get behind it and push it or pull from in front of it in a semicircle? If you analyze it objectively, it doesn't make any sense. Applying force anywhere on a ball other then in a straight line in a waste of force, it's logic.

I guess guys have been chopping down trees with an arc incorrectly all these years. Go try and cut down a tree with an axe by pushing the blade straight forward into the tree...Push the blade from "point A to point B with out making an arc. Better yet, next time you take BP straddle home plate, hold the bat at each end, tell the pitcher to throw a ball at your chest, and see how far you can push the ball with the in-line method..Its logic.

If MM is correct about the lower body not producing any velo, then why dont any of his pitchers throw hard? Why only use half of your body?

The Max-line fastball is the most hittable, straightest, least deceptive fastball on the planet. How is this better if it inhibits your ability to compete at the highest level your capable of playing. DECEPTION. You guys wont fool anybody.

Xavier&Trin...

10-24-2007, 06:22 AM

XVBringing up Hubbell doesn't validate any point you have regarding the screwball.

OK. Thanks for the input! I will try to use another example of the all-time greatest screwball pitcher with a backwards arm that needed to be surgically repaired. :shhh:

Xavier&Trin...

10-24-2007, 06:31 AM

Are you sure it's the screwball that caused his problems?

Please explain, in technical terms, why the screwball would cause this kind of injury.

All Im asking you to do is re-think it. Just think about it the next time you show a youth pitcher this pitch. I dont believe that you feel there is nothing significant to be learned from Hubble...I dont. I know you study and research pitching, but dont were blinders in regards to pronation. I am all for pronation, but I am dead against forcing it before it is natural. I dont want you take my word for it, just reconsider, and dont assume MM has all the answers. Teaching pitchers a -20 mph pitch is safe no matter what the pitch, but its also not hard enough to get better players out.

XV84

10-24-2007, 11:47 PM

XV

OK. Thanks for the input! I will try to use another example of the all-time greatest screwball pitcher with a backwards arm that needed to be surgically repaired. :shhh:

You didn't anwer my other questions.

Xavier&Trin...

10-25-2007, 06:29 AM

XV's previously unanswered baited questionsMaybe he had mechanical flaws?
Other than throwing screwball's. perhaps.

Gee could that be the answer?
IMO his arm needing to be surgically repaired from permanent pronation has something to do with the screwball. Good question though.

Maybe he had forearm flyout?
I didnt know this was a problem, or what it is. Who are some pitchers that suffered what Hubble did who were "forearm fly-outers".

Late forearm turnover?
Maybe.

What was his arm slot?
3/4.

What was his conditioning?
Great, hes a HOF pitcher!

Where was his release point?
Out in front of him. Good question.

Is he the only guy to ever have arm troubles?
Yes, this is an unheard of phenomenon! He is the only pitcher that had his arm permanently pronated, and admitted it from over using screwball's. If you dont think this has any significance than you are as ignorant as these precious questions you wanted answered.

How many pitchers DID NOT throw a screwball and had arm troubles?

All of them. Of those how many had thier arm disfigured like Hubbles.

Could it have been not pronating his curveball?

No. I doubt his arm got permanently pronated by supinating a pitch he didnt throw very often.

If Mike Marshall saw this picture of Hubbell's curveball release, he will say it's because of this supinated curveball release.

So what. I wouldnt let MM work with my kid. I have video of MM pitching during his prime...thats the delivery he should be teaching.

Again, -20 mph breaking balls are a joke.

Postblank

10-25-2007, 06:38 AM

Again, -20 mph breaking balls are a joke.

Yes, let's throw everything at fastball velocity. That sure sounds like "deceptive pitching" to me. :crazy

MoKan

10-25-2007, 06:54 AM

As Kylebee said FB, CB & change. Learn to command the FB on both sides of the plate and up and down, taking a little off and adding to.

Postblank

10-25-2007, 08:49 AM

Cool, Any other words you want to put in my mouth? What did MM say about Hubble?
Not really. Care to explain what velocity changes are deceptive if 0 to -20
isn't? That's basically curve ball velocity, give or take 5 mph (which is negligable).

Doc thinks if Hubble's arm condition is factual, it would have to do with the physiological adjustments made during his playing time coming undone upon retirement. He hasn't seen any video of any real use to evaluate the mechanics, but he gives Hubble credit for bringing pronation into baseball pitching.

Xavier&Trin...

10-25-2007, 08:59 AM

Care to explain what velocity changes are deceptive if 0 to -20
isn't?

Not really. Your taking everything out of context and I dont think your open to suggestion. Good luck at the compound.

Postblank

10-25-2007, 09:20 AM

Not really. Your taking everything out of context and I dont think your open to suggestion. Good luck at the compound.

All Im asking you to do is re-think it. Just think about it the next time you show a youth pitcher this pitch. I dont believe that you feel there is nothing significant to be learned from Hubble...I dont. I know you study and research pitching, but dont were blinders in regards to pronation. I am all for pronation, but I am dead against forcing it before it is natural. I dont want you take my word for it, just reconsider, and dont assume MM has all the answers. Teaching pitchers a -20 mph pitch is safe no matter what the pitch, but its also not hard enough to get better players out.That seems to be reasonable context. Don't cop out on me now, you were doing so well!

Xavier&Trin...

10-25-2007, 09:27 AM

There is a HUGE difference between 0 TO -20mph, and -20mph... Thats the context I was referring to.

Postblank

10-25-2007, 07:42 PM

There is a HUGE difference between 0 TO -20mph, and -20mph... Thats the context I was referring to. Yeah, explain exactly what you perceive the difference between the two as so I can understand what you're talking about. I'll explain our general system to clarify on my end.

0: Torque fastball, maxline fastball
~-5 to 0: Torque two seam fastball, maxline two seam fastball
-10: Torque slider
-20: Maxline curveball, torque curveball, maxline screwball

It's a general guide, I'd most of the seasoned guys here throw their curveballs -15 like traditional pitchers tend to do.

Can you post a video of your delivery and your velo's under MM's care.Thus far I only have a VHS of my entrance video throwing traditionally and doing drills at the two month point. I entered throwing 56-61 mph fastballs. Upon the end of the 280 day program (mid May), I'll be video taped doing the full motion and it'll be on Marshall's website. I'll now make extra sure that it's seen here.

Jake Patterson

10-25-2007, 08:01 PM

Hubble played 16 years in the pros and pitched in 535 games, had 3590.1 innings pitched. At 10 pitches per inning that would be nearly 36,000 professional pitches. Add that to all the practices, pre pro career, etc... thats a lot of throws in any arm.

StraightGrain11

10-25-2007, 10:55 PM

Drill

10-26-2007, 05:33 AM

Fastball. Breaking ball. Changeup.

That's all you need.

Don't forget location

drill

leftypitcher934

10-26-2007, 02:38 PM

Xavier&Trin...

10-26-2007, 03:28 PM

ok but no one answered my question should i:

1) stick with just the 4 seam slurve and change
2) add 2 seam for the 4 seam slurve and change
3) add cutter to the 4 seam slurve n change
4) add the sinker tot he 4 seam slurve and change

Its hard to give accurate advise on what pitches will best work for you without seeing your arm action, and arm slot. Any chance of posting a video?

leftypitcher934

10-26-2007, 04:06 PM

l try to post one soon, but my motion is like jon lester and i have a 3/4 arm slot

JCStone07

10-26-2007, 04:27 PM

I'd stay away from the cutter, I've never been fond of it personally. I'm in agreeance with all you need is a fastball, change, and a hook and you'll do just fine.

TG Coach

10-26-2007, 05:24 PM

I entered throwing 56-61 mph fastballs. Upon the end of the 280 day program (mid May), I'll be video taped doing the full motion and it'll be on Marshall's website. I'll now make extra sure that it's seen here.

An adult throwing 56-61! Wow! How can that be?

Jake Patterson

10-26-2007, 05:25 PM

An adult throwing 56-61! Wow! How can that be?

Come to one of my practices...

Postblank

10-26-2007, 07:34 PM

An adult throwing 56-61! Wow! How can that be?

Inactivity and a SLAP lesion.

ok but no one answered my question should i:

1) stick with just the 4 seam slurve and change
2) add 2 seam for the 4 seam slurve and change
3) add cutter to the 4 seam slurve n change
4) add the sinker tot he 4 seam slurve and change

By principle, I'd say go for the another GAS breaking pitch, so either add a cutter if you really want or stand pat. How does your change break?