Best Lesson I've Ever Received! Pcr Fixes All [Archive]

SeanMadden9

10-18-2007, 02:26 PM

well you guys all know him as chesspirate...you guys even led me on to him after I asked about local instructors. He has showed me so many things and my swing has honestly gotten 100 times better. I have barely even tapped into this PCR stuff but can already see huge changes and improvements in my swing. I just hit an outside curveball about 380 to the centerfield wall in out last intersquad game. This is junior college ball also. THis PCR stuff is the ticket. I have heard it all...this is it though. I even brought my brother who is my teamate, and another friend who is also my teamate to him last night. The friend was 15 votes shy of junior college all american last year, batting over .400 throughout the entire season until he fell to high .390's at the end of the year. They both loved it and said it was extremely legit. I used to preach the front hip pulling back and back hip driving forward around that front leg. But it is the core! when you think core, rotation happens naturally, athletically and powerfully. You stay connected which was my biggest problem. It simplifies everything! Just wanted to let you guys know this from a hitters prospective who is playing college ball and has been taught by a lot of people...you guys know him as chesspirate.....Great hitting coach.....and the PCR stuff has been working very well so far and i will continue working it until im where i need to be for the season..thanks!

SeanMadden9

10-18-2007, 02:28 PM

also the reason i have found that my pull back, and drive forward thing doesnt work is because the front hip pulls up and out which always stiffens that front leg on all pitch locations and swings....i can go on for a while why this shouldnt happen with the front hip but we will leave it at this: watch the pros and see if that front leg stiffens on every single swing.....

FiveFrameSwing

10-18-2007, 03:08 PM

My rudimentary understanding is that the “leg stiffens” as the leg pushes backwards against the ground, accelerating the hip action in the process.

Perhaps you could explain why it would be improper to have the leg stiffen as one extends into contact.

chesspirate

10-18-2007, 05:29 PM

Five, there has been enough stuff posted on numerous hitting boards regarding how the "pcr" crowd understands rotation to occur. There are multiple threads here on BF, and plenty of threads elsewhere. If you really want to know, go to www.englishbeyhitting.com and sign up for free to access the public side of the forum. That will get you the info you need.

FiveFrameSwing

10-18-2007, 06:49 PM

jbooth

10-18-2007, 07:52 PM

The content on Englishbey's "public side" is lite on information.

If you have another source that would be appreciated.

You should know from many posts here, that the PCR crowd doesn't believe the legs are used at all, to turn the torso. It's done with magical force that explodes from somewhere in your middle. Their exact words are; "You carry the middle, and turn from the middle, the middle moves the legs."

They've even essentially stated that when you walk you don't really use your legs that much. :crazy Yet, I was the topic of a "nonsense" thread when I suggested and proved that it IS manipulation of the leg bones that moves the torso.

FiveFrameSwing

10-18-2007, 08:52 PM

You should know from many posts here, that the PCR crowd doesn't believe the legs are used at all, to turn the torso. It's done with magical force that explodes from somewhere in your middle. Their exact words are; "You carry the middle, and turn from the middle, the middle moves the legs."

They've even essentially stated that when you walk you don't really use your legs that much. :crazy Yet, I was the topic of a "nonsense" thread when I suggested and proved that it IS manipulation of the leg bones that moves the torso.

Now that's funny.

I suppose they got confused. I know when my kids torque their upper body they tell me that their mid-section tightens. I tell them "good". It never occurred to me to tell them that the use of their legs was complete nonsense.

The PCR crowd must love Yeager's work in which he promotes the two main sources of power generation come from the torque position (seperation) and proper lower body momentum mechanics.

If the PCR crowd uses Pete Rose's swing as their poster child, then them away from my kids.

The one thing I do like about the PCR crowd is their detail on keeping the angle of their lead arm until the approach into contact. That seems to help tremendously in terms of hitting through the ball with lots of force.

chesspirate

10-19-2007, 08:06 AM

JBooth is a misrepresenter of fact and thats the truth.

I don't know if it's ignorance or if you've got an axe to grind or you just want to seperate yourself and be your own special hitting guru differentiated from all the rest, but you've consistently gone out of your way to state misrepresentations about the pcr stuff.

Jim will take an example, and then extrapolate from that (not sure how) a conclusion that was not intended. Again, if he's doing this purposefully or not is debateable (i guess). And it isn't just the arguments, it's the way the argument is presented that is childish at it's base.

I'm sorry if Jim is completely ignorant of how athletic movement occurs. Next he'll site Peavy as the be-all end-all, but Peavy's work has been substantially refuted as a relevant test. The forces being measured are not the cause, they are the result.

Also, to say that the legs do 'nothing' is croc, the legs play an important role in the swing, just not in the way you think they do. Again we're talking about where movement originates, and how the body does what it does during a baseball swing. And by no means did you "suggested and proved that it IS manipulation of the leg bones that moves the torso." And just because you say it so definitavely doesn't make it truth. Also when you say "they say" you should include more than one, oversimplified quote, but that would be to fair i guess.

This argument goes nowhere. And it will continue to go nowhere with you. I have my stand, wich i believe to be the correct one, and you have yours, wich you believe to be the correct one. As long as you don't blatantly attack ideas you don't understand we'll be fine. And especially this thread in particular, you know what i'm talking about, i'm sure you understand THAT.

I think the first posts speak for themselves. Sean is very willing to work hard, he did everything his college coaches asked and didn't succeed, he actually regressed. He wen't out looking for better information and so far he's pleased.

I'm very sorry to drag Sean into this continual online hitting war and to have Jim B be envious of his self proclaimed success. We're not just talking drill work and smoke and mirrors, he's hitting better in the cage with me, better in practice at school and better in games. And since his school watches video of game swings, others have taken notice and chimed in that they (players and coaches) think his swing has improved.

tadlock11

10-19-2007, 08:26 AM

Congratulations Sean - keep up the hard work.

tom.guerry

10-19-2007, 08:29 AM

chess is typical of the adhominem/personal attack approach of the nyman/Englishbey PCR advocates.

Rather than engage with information, they hide behind the secrecy of their "proprietary" information.

The real reason is becuse their info is bogus as Jim says. Not that we are all perfect here, but their info is not seceret and will not stand the light of day in an open nonintimidating forum.

They would set you staright, but they can't because the good info is secret. They'll save the youth of america from bogus info as long as you pay for it and discuss it privately.

As I have pointed out for years now, the PCR "functional blueprint" is EXTREMELY similar to what is understood as the 1 plane golf pattern whereas the mlb swing is understood as a further specialization of the 2 plane golf pattern.

The way the kinetic chain is sequenced/feels is very different in these two patterns.

The 2plane type pattern is the only consistently successful one in mlb because of how it creates spatially early quick acceleration and later plane adjustment for an optimal contact zone.

The leg turning and weight shift is much more bottom up than middle out with the shoulders staying back in mlb and 2Plane golf. In 2 plane golf, any active shoulder turning throws the club over the top and forces a slicing plane more out front. Same effect is true for mlb hitting.

This is entirely different from bending over and turning the torso and shoulders actively and maintaining the box to turn the bat in the shoulder plane and trying to then adjust by bend at waist.

This PCR apporach prevents keeping the hands back and forces commiting to the swing plane early which can work well off a tee or at lower level ball with hot bats, but it is not what has historically succeeded in mlb.

PCR is a radical new rotational swing pattern which you may or may not want to try.

It is NOT similar to the typical mlb pattern and practicing it is not going to expedite progress to the mlb pattern if that is the destination.

JackB1

10-19-2007, 08:41 AM

This stuff reminds me of arguing politics. Most folks believe what they want and nothing can change their minds. It seems like you guys just want to justify your own beliefs to be THE ONE and that will never happen. I think it's great that there are different schools of thought out there about the baseball swing and it's up to the student to gather information and take what works and throw out what doesn't. But all this "in-fighting" about who's concepts are better is just a waste of everyone's time and non-profuctive.
The actual pro hitter's themselves would laugh their asses off reading your arguments about what bones move what and so on..... They all basically do it the same way and I'm sure they all didn't have the same teachers, so that proves that you just take what works for you and use it.

Bottom line is that no ONE method works for everyone and we will all have different opinions. Just state your opinion and let the reader decide what's best. Personal attacks attempting to debunk someone else's school of thought is just not the way to go, IMO.

JackB1

10-19-2007, 08:44 AM

PCR is a radical new rotational swing pattern which you may or may not want to try.

Could someone briefly explain this "PCR" system and what it's basics are all about? I am not familiar with it. What does PCR stand for? Is it just Englishbey's system? What separates it from the others?

jbooth

10-19-2007, 09:17 AM

JBooth is a misrepresenter of fact and thats the truth.

What did I misrepresent. Is it not a FACT that PCR says "move the middle"?

Do they not say that the middle moves the legs?

I'm sorry if Jim is completely ignorant of how athletic movement occurs.

Now, that is funny. I'm hardly "completely ignorant" of how the body moves.

Next he'll site Peavy as the be-all end-all

Nope, because I'm like JackB1, in that I don't think anyone (including myself) has THE be-all and end-all method. And, in fact I think there are more than one way to successfully hit the ball. In fact, the impression most people get is that PCR followers believe everybody else is ignorant if they follow any other method.

Also, to say that the legs do 'nothing' is croc, the legs play an important role in the swing, just not in the way you think they do. Again we're talking about where movement originates, and how the body does what it does during a baseball swing. And by no means did you "suggested and proved that it IS manipulation of the leg bones that moves the torso." And just because you say it so definitavely doesn't make it truth. Also when you say "they say" you should include more than one, oversimplified quote, but that would be to fair i guess.

If you don't think I proved it, then I guess "you just don't understand."

I think the first posts speak for themselves. Sean is very willing to work hard, he did everything his college coaches asked and didn't succeed, he actually regressed. He wen't out looking for better information and so far he's pleased.

I'm happy for him, and I've never said that PCR wasn't better than the teachings of MOST instructors. It is one of the top methods that can be used, but it isn't the ONLY method that can be successful, and not everything taught by it is 100% correct.

I'm very sorry to drag Sean into this continual online hitting war and to have Jim B be envious of his self proclaimed success. We're not just talking drill work and smoke and mirrors, he's hitting better in the cage with me, better in practice at school and better in games. And since his school watches video of game swings, others have taken notice and chimed in that they (players and coaches) think his swing has improved.

I have no doubt he is doing better and that's great. I just get tired of you telling me I'm ignorant and don't understand. I have a lot of successful students also, and I don't follow PCR to the letter. Get off YOUR high horse. I'm open to taking good parts from other methods. It's the PCR crowd that is obsessively narrow minded and seems to reject anything that is different from their model.

So, let me get this straight.

It's OK for PCR people to say I don't understand, and I'm ignorant of the facts, and say I'm talking nonsense, but when I present my beliefs and support them with what I believe are facts, it's not OK. And, they don't have to bother with disproving me with facts, a blanket stantement of "you don't understand" is sufficient. Talk about arrogance!

You and some other PCR believers are like a broken record. Everytime, I or someone challenges your beliefs, the standard response is always, "You don't understand."

wogdoggy

10-19-2007, 09:25 AM

John,,you just dont understand....lol..the ultimate comebacker

two schools of thought really,,everything is connected when you swing..OR seperation rubber band and X factor..there is a difference in BASIC theory..

JackB1

10-19-2007, 09:43 AM

FiveFrameSwing

10-19-2007, 10:27 AM

Peavy's work has been substantially refuted as a relevant test.

What portions of Peavy's work has been "substantially refuted"?

Would appreciate specifics if you have any.

chesspirate

10-19-2007, 10:59 AM

to JackB1, there is a thread titled "what the hell is PCR" on the public side of Steve's forum, great place to start.

Jim, you act as if this argument is new and fresh, but it's been ongoing for sometime, i/we should not have to argue as if it is a new argument. Information has been presented to you, you've seen it and you disagree. Then when someone gives a mention to the success of pcr you come out and attack first. Then when i respond you demand facts wich you've already been given.

fiveframe, pm me.

Jevan

10-19-2007, 01:19 PM

to agree with Chess

FiveFrameSwing

10-19-2007, 01:23 PM

to agree with Chess

Based on what?

Personally I'd like to see these so called "facts" and decide for myself.

Is there a link that you can point to?

Jake Patterson

10-19-2007, 01:38 PM

Could someone briefly explain this "PCR" system and what it's basics are all about? I am not familiar with it. What does PCR stand for? Is it just Englishbey's system? What separates it from the others?

Posture - Connection - Rotation

tom.guerry

10-19-2007, 04:27 PM

if only Jim would read Dixon and understand it. Then everything would be fine.

Chess-

Why don't you explain Dixon to Jim, or maybe that's proprietary too ?

StraightGrain11

10-19-2007, 05:07 PM

Chesspirate, why do you keep sending us to Steve's site for information you already have? If Steve is so willing to share it, why aren't you?

JBooth is a misrepresenter of fact and thats the truth.

Jim will take an example, and then extrapolate from that (not sure how) a conclusion that was not intended. Again, if he's doing this purposefully or not is debateable (i guess). And it isn't just the arguments, it's the way the argument is presented that is childish at it's base.
How?

I'm sorry if Jim is completely ignorant of how athletic movement occurs. Next he'll site Peavy as the be-all end-all, but Peavy's work has been substantially refuted as a relevant test. The forces being measured are not the cause, they are the result.
Please explain; I'm not familiar with Peavey or his work.

Also, to say that the legs do 'nothing' is croc, the legs play an important role in the swing, just not in the way you think they do. Again we're talking about where movement originates, and how the body does what it does during a baseball swing.
What role (from your point of view) do th elegs play? And where does the movement originate (again, from your point of view)?

Sorry if you feel "attacked," but I'm genuinely curious as to what you're talking about. If it's worked that well for sean, then....

tom.guerry

10-19-2007, 05:34 PM

That's another great ploy.

I can't tell you becasue it's proprietary.

Goto eh.com

read Dixon. and now it's -

I already told you.

and there have been/will be others.

Look at video, but then you see what you want to.

Golf doesn't count, unless I talk about it.

You're angry.

Your ego is hurt.

Steve wasn't nice to you.

Save america's youth.

etc.

Remy

10-19-2007, 06:51 PM

Why don't PCR people ever want to discuss technique?????

Is it because their theory is so easy to discredit with video of MLB hitters? I know Ive seen that happen many times.

FiveFrameSwing

10-19-2007, 07:03 PM

Why don't PCR people ever want to discuss technique?????

It's probably a combination of trying to make a buck and needing to control the environment in which they attempt to give out information.

Jake Patterson

10-19-2007, 07:33 PM

Why don't PCR people ever want to discuss technique?????

Is it because their theory is so easy to discredit with video of MLB hitters? I know Ive seen that happen many times.

An example would be....????

FiveFrameSwing

10-19-2007, 08:20 PM

An example would be....????

I viewed the Englishbey's Swing Training Basics DVD with a friend tonight.

I'm scratching my head and wondering why this guy is getting so much press on here.

All of the swings that were demonstrated have the shoulder and hips connected. Not once did I see the hips leading the shoulders. Absolutely no upper body torque, which according to Yeager is one of the top two sources of power in the swing.

The mechanics of the swing being taught basically boil down to
1: sitting or tilting (Posture)
2: treat the hands, arms, shoulders and hips as connected (Connection)
3: rotate into the ball (Rotation)

The two main sources of power in the swing weren't discussed. Instead a quick comment is made that the prime source of the power comes from rotation. The whole Kinetic Link principle is missed.

According to Yeager, the hips must be moving infront of the upper body before stopping so that momentum transfer can occur.

If the large segments are not pushed in front and all of the segments rotate at the same time then little momentum transfer has occurred. The hitter must avoid simultaneous rotation of body parts. Englishbey appears to totally miss this point.

The idea that body parts reach a maximum velocity and then decelerate in order to pass their momentum to the following segment appears to be a difficult concept for Englishbey to grasp.

I did like the "maintain the box concept". I think Jim Booth says it better, and correct me if I'm wrong, but the idea is to maintain the angle in the lead-arm as long as possible (until one turns the corner). Now if you take this concept and add Lau's/Peavy's concept of lead-arm extention, then you can really hit the ball hard with a "connected" swing. I did find it interesting that in Englishbey's demonstrations that he used early top-hand release.

Overall, the swing that he demonstrated didn't match up well with the MLB swing. My biggest issue with it would be the lack of upper body torque.

jbooth

10-19-2007, 08:25 PM

Why don't PCR people ever want to discuss technique?????

They do. On Steve's site where they all agree on what is right, and they paid to find the "truth." You don't think they're going to give away info that they paid for do you? They just tell you that you don't understand, and need to spend money as they did to find the truth, and earn the right to then tell others that they just don't understand.

You can get part of the "truth" on the public site, but to get the full "truth" and total understanding, you need to buy the videos.

FiveFrameSwing

10-19-2007, 08:51 PM

They do. On Steve's site where they all agree on what is right, and they paid to find the "truth." You don't think they're going to give away info that they paid for do you? They just tell you that you don't understand, and need to spend money as they did to find the truth, and earn the right to then tell others that they just don't understand.

You can get part of the "truth" on the public site, but to get the full "truth" and total understanding, you need to buy the videos.

Reminds me of a movie in which Jack Nicholson shouts at Tom Cruise: "YOU WANT THE TRUTH? YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH!"

Perhaps we all need to read Dixon.

Remy

10-19-2007, 09:02 PM

So until I buy the videos I wont understand PCR? Do I have that part right?

RayR

10-19-2007, 09:02 PM

The whole Kinetic Link principle is missed.

You're kidding, right?

And Jim, your sour grapes routine is getting old. What's the matter? The skeleton DVD's aren't selling?

Remy

10-19-2007, 09:08 PM

Ray if PCR doesnt believe in upper body torque like Swing says then how would he be kidding? Right?

JJA

10-19-2007, 09:08 PM

I never understand Internet guys. All of the instructors we're talking about make their living from baseball: Epstein, Lau, Yeager, Englishbey, Nyman, Hudgens, etc. They can't make a living by giving away their material for free. Lau told me once that the reason he doesn't post on the internet is that he can make $300/hr giving lessons, or he can spend time giving away the same information for free on the internet. Tough choice, eh?

To expect Epstein to post his torque drill on the internet so that no one has to buy his DVD is no way to make a living. Similarly, for Englishbey or anybody else. It's just simple business.

The tough spot for all of those guys is that they have to give the consumer enough information to convince them to buy their stuff, but not too much. Baseball instruction has lots of people in it, so it's really hard to attract buyers. So few people take baseball lessons (compared to golf, say, for which both adults and kids take lessons) that it's really hard to break in. So to expect guys to just give away their intellectual property in such a limited market is just unreasonable.

-JJA

Remy

10-19-2007, 09:16 PM

I mean how can rotation power the swing with no upper body torque???

If you turn everything together thats not very powerful I dont think.

jbooth

10-19-2007, 09:19 PM

You're kidding, right?

And Jim, your sour grapes routine is getting old. What's the matter? The skeleton DVD's aren't selling?

What sour grapes? I could care less what Steve says or does, and I don't care what you think either. I post what I believe, and people can take it or leave it. I have lots of people who PM me and tell me they agree with much of what I post. Everybody has supporters and detractors. I don't have delusions that everybody is going to agree with me, but I do get a bit upset when people say I have no clue, and that I teach nonsense. I also have little respect for people who can't make a counter argument better than, "you don't understand."

And, if you couldn't understand what I was pointing out with the skeleton, then you "just don't understand."

Remy

10-19-2007, 09:23 PM

Booth Ive read many of your posts and you present a pretty good case that PCR has some basic flaws from what Ive read.

Remy

10-19-2007, 09:32 PM

Jake MLB hitters dont connect the hands to the shoulder. The hands always are out in front. If you connect like PCR says you will drag the bat.

jbooth

10-19-2007, 09:35 PM

Booth Ive read many of your posts and you present a pretty good case that PCR has some basic flaws from what Ive read.

I want to be clear here. I have never said that PCR was totally wrong, or nonsense, or a method that would ruin your chances of success. There is a lot fundamentally correct about it. But, I don't think it is the wondrous, fantastic thing that some people believe it is, but that is my OPINION, and everybody is entitled to their opinion.

What irks me most is not the model itself, but the arrogant, condescending attitude that many of the PCR believers have. Any disagreement with their beliefs and you're called ignorant, and just don't understand what is right.

jbooth

10-19-2007, 09:42 PM

Jake MLB hitters dont connect the hands to the shoulder. The hands always are out in front. If you connect like PCR says you will drag the bat.

Well, I hate to disagree after you showed me some support, but the hands DO stay back near the armpit for quite awhile. Yeager teaches that also. That isn't a failure of PCR. The flaw is that PCR believes the arms and hands do very little other than keep the bat connected to the rotation.

IMO, the hands and arms are active, but you do have to keep the hands back. Almost every pro I've ever spoken to, says that.

Remy

10-19-2007, 09:49 PM

Booth are you saying the shoulders are not bypassed in the swing? The reason I ask is because I see the hands leaving the shoulders pretty quick once they head for the swing plane and the swinging action begins. And you either believe the shoulders provide power or you dont. No in-between there. Right?

chesspirate

10-20-2007, 12:55 AM

okay, y'know what? here's the deal, the real deal, the honest truth.

I love baseball, i love hitting, i've loved it since my dad bought me an oversized red baseball bat when i was small enough not to remember it. At times in my life i had been a good hitter, and at others-mainly as i got older and moved up- i was less than average.

I started hanging around the internet looking for info, started finding the sites with the forums and open debate instead of just the places selling stuff. Started reading, a lot, fell in love with it, purchased all the hitting books i could find in the stores, williams, lau, shmidt, baker, SDSB, LSGH, and plenty of others, took it all in, took it all in again, tried this, tried that and on and on for a long period of time. Nothing really made noticeable and consistent improvements in my games untill i got to pcr.

Basically, found setpro, kinda liked the layout and appreciated the detail the swing was broken down with. Lots of you reading this were there, taking part in the forums. At first, i really didn't get a lot of the ideas being presented, very counter to the 'standard' type hitting teaching going on all around. The very detailed descriptions of rotation and swing plane and the idea of connection and the importance of so so many other things the rest of the hitting community at the time was totally ignoring or ignorant of or sorta getting but not getting.

basically, i started improving the more i hung around setpro, then as Steve E started to get more detailed in his own right i started to improve even more, becoming more consistent. And then as most of you know there was a split and things sorta were in flux for me personally till Steve opened his site.

i've worked with Steve personally on two seperate occasions, and on both occasions i've come away absolutely flored at the content of the information, it's applicability to my situation and the situation of those with me and also the enthusiasm, and above all the time, plain and simple nobody really will go at it as long and hard as Steve, he'll talk till he falls asleep then wake and start it right up again.

i've seen players on my team improve due to 'pcr' and i've seen others on my team ignore it or not care and pretty much stay at the same level they've always been. i can also tell from a defensive standpoint watching the opposing hitters what they are likely to be able to do and not due based on thier swings, this has helped my pitching in its own way. And finally, with the few people i've actually worked with i've seen nothing but consistent and quick improvement in their swings.

so that's it, pcr really works for me on so many levels and i've personally seen it work for others consistently while not seeing anything else do the same.

Ursa Major

10-20-2007, 01:22 AM

If you want a pretty complete idea of what Steve Englishbey is teaching (or at least was up until about a year ago), just go through all his PMs on this site, and you'll find a ton of ideas he's giving away for free. Of course, that's a pretty scattershot way of looking into his thought processes, but I hope it dispels any notion that (or just about anyone else connected with PCR) is reluctant to keep all their knowledge secret from others.

Remy, you refer to "PCR" as though it were a living person, or a monolithic school of hitting beliefs. I don't think Jim disputes the core principles of PCR, but rather what he views to be some of the beliefs of its "leading" proponents as to refinements.

But, all these principles have to go through several layers of filters before they can be implemented in a swing, to the extent they should. An advanced player like Sean or his teammate may only need one or two components or cues to adjust what already is a good swing, and the whole debate about use of the legs may be unnecessary to him because he's found that piece of the puzzle naturally or through some other source. On the other hand, the legs business may not be critical in teaching a ten year old how to swing, as you may be working first on developing postur and connection.

Anyway, congratulations to Sean on having a good experience in working with chesspirate. It's good to get that kind of feedback, because all the good theories in the world don't mean squat if the proponent hasn't been able to implement them with any students. (And some of you know who I mean by that comment.... [and I don't mean Jim; he's worked with my son and is a very good hands-on instructor]) So, of course, congrats to Chesspirate as well.

StraightGrain11

10-20-2007, 01:25 AM

Well, I hate to disagree after you showed me some support, but the hands DO stay back near the armpit for quite awhile. Yeager teaches that also. That isn't a failure of PCR. The flaw is that PCR believes the arms and hands do very little other than keep the bat connected to the rotation.

IMO, the hands and arms are active, but you do have to keep the hands back. Almost every pro I've ever spoken to, says that.

Not in support of one or the other here, but how would the hands NOT stay back near the arm pit? Unless you release your hands to the ball, THEN roatate your shoulders...how can they do anything else? The idea (I believe Remy is using) is this, if the hands don't start moving (with the shoulders) and "stay out front," then you are "waiting" for the front shoulder to "bring them thru" - in which case they will "get left behind."

The misconception in the idea of "keeping the hands back" is that they [actually] "stay back," which isn't what happens (exactly)...it's that the body does not begin its rotation "on time" - it occurs "late." I've said it before, and I will say it again, Bonds gave the best example I have ever seen of the "keep the hands back" adage when he hit his 750th HR, look it up in the Multimedia archives (June 29) on the MLB website. Watch his rear hip, there is a delay between their iniation in rotation and footplant. Jim, it would be awesome if you would use your "film stuff" and break this down. :)

StraightGrain11

10-20-2007, 01:49 AM

If you want a pretty complete idea of what Steve Englishbey is teaching (or at least was up until about a year ago), just go through all his PMs on this site, and you'll find a ton of ideas he's giving away for free. Of course, that's a pretty scattershot way of looking into his thought processes, but I hope it dispels any notion that (or just about anyone else connected with PCR) is reluctant to keep all their knowledge secret from others.

Remy, you refer to "PCR" as though it were a living person, or a monolithic school of hitting beliefs. I don't think Jim disputes the core principles of PCR, but rather what he views to be some of the beliefs of its "leading" proponents as to refinements.

Sorry if it seemed like I was asking for secrets, I'm just asking chesspirate to back up wat he says with EXAMPLES, rather than saying Jim's a :silent: (whatever) and leaving it at that. I've been on Englishbey's site. unfortunately, my computer doesn't have the "correct" hardware to view many of the photos/videos up for discussion and, therefore, the information is very hard to follow (as most of it is "implied" to what you should be seeing).

Chess, I'm glad it's worked for you, and sean. :) But your success story tells me nothing; if it DIDN'T work for you, I would wonder why you would be so adament in it's teachings - so it's success for you is already implied in your belief in the system. Right?

I'm simply asking you to not attack Jim's arguments with
JBooth is a misrepresenter of fact and thats the truth. Jim will take an example, and then extrapolate from that (not sure how) a conclusion that was not intended. Again, if he's doing this purposefully or not is debateable (i guess). And it isn't just the arguments, it's the way the argument is presented that is childish at it's base
but rather with some valid points of your own. Fair?

If Jim is indeed "completely ignorant of how athletic movement occurs" (as you put it), atleast he has put something forth for us to base this on, what is your basis, what have you put forth? I'm not asking for any "secrets," I'm asking for a basis EXAMPLE.

Steve, if you're reading this, I'm not "attacking" him, I'm asking a valid question, am I not? And I have written to you and asked you questions, to which I have yet to receive a reply.:shrug:

Encinitas

10-20-2007, 03:44 AM

Sean I hope you do well. Why Booth gets jumped on I don't know except to say Chess gets a little ticked once in a while and blows off steam. The poster at EH who started a "nonsense" thread might be a little unstable, as Jim freely contributes much to this site, agree or disagree, it's not nonsense.

And so at the end of the day it doesn't matter who your guru of hitting is, just make sure you get the damn barrel up in the air, and that when the barrel is coming down and around the back shoulder, the hips have already started to clear. No magic pill. You must video your swing to ensure you are getting separation, so hopefully you are getting the advanced class and not learning to "turn as a unit".

Make sure you look like one of these guys and no dead hands.
http://www.hittingillustrated.com/library/Manny4.gifhttp://www.hittingillustrated.com/library/Chipper5.gifhttp://www.hittingillustrated.com/library/Cabrerra.gif

StraightGrain11

10-20-2007, 04:00 AM

4for4

10-20-2007, 04:53 AM

Jim freely contributes much to this site, agree or disagree, it's not nonsense.

No, Jim's isn't nonsense.
just make sure you get the damn barrel up in the air

Yeah. Don't leave it on the ground Sean.

No magic pill...hopefully you are getting the advanced class and not learning to "turn as a unit".

So it won't happen in 10 swings? Sean, stay away from lateral tilt and rotating forearms. That's beer league.

570 doubles, 65 triples, 346 home runs.

http://66.206.15.241/hmimgs/L_Gonzalez03.gif

What can you say? Simplicity.

Sean -- congrats on your efforts. You're with a guy that knows what he's doing and most importantly understands cause and effect. Keep at it and stay away from feel good posts and magic fixes. Forget about separation. Think kinetic chain and understand the coordination and timing of your loading and how it impacts unloading. Chess gets this.

Jimbo -- I think we're playing phone tag and I'm it. I'll try you tomorrow so we can meet and sort through some of these misinterpretations and mischaracterizations.

RayR

10-20-2007, 05:02 AM

What sour grapes? I could care less what Steve says or does, and I don't care what you think either. I post what I believe, and people can take it or leave it. I have lots of people who PM me and tell me they agree with much of what I post. Everybody has supporters and detractors. I don't have delusions that everybody is going to agree with me, but I do get a bit upset when people say I have no clue, and that I teach nonsense. I also have little respect for people who can't make a counter argument better than, "you don't understand."

And, if you couldn't understand what I was pointing out with the skeleton, then you "just don't understand."

If you don't care so much, why bother to post the nonsense about the "truth"?

And as a hypothetical: If you bought someone's material on how to lose weight or quit smoking or how to flip houses and it worked for you and you participated in a forum with others that bought the same material sharing ideas and so forth, you would go around and give that material away for free?

And FWIW, you can get a hitter to change a couple of things and see awesome improvement. Hell, just getting a hitter to get the barrel into the zone quicker will make a huge difference at whatever level they are at especially with the bat technology these days.

But, I wouldn't try to pass it off as what ML hitters do and everyone else is wrong.

wogdoggy

10-20-2007, 05:55 AM

I mean how can rotation power the swing with no upper body torque???

If you turn everything together thats not very powerful I dont think.

theres one main difference in hitting theories,:applaud:

Jim W.

10-20-2007, 06:51 AM

Sean....congrats!!! If you find it works for you....keep working on it regardless of what it's called and who discounts it.

I've been frequenting this site and many others for some time. Read books, bought video material, paid for hitting lessons from many different people. I do that to help teach my son a better way to hit. I'm a student of the game.

Until my son and I met Steve E. a few weeks ago, he never told me how good his swing "feels" and how it seems natural. He hit well but not as good as he felt he should or could. Now he had a long way to go ( a constant mission) but he likes what he heard and was taught from Steve E., is trying to improve and it IS working.

He is 15 YO, never been on these forums, never cares what different swings are called or what who teaches what and what is right or wrong. He does watch clips in slo-mo and tries to emulate. What Steve taught/teaching him makes sense, feels right, has increased efficiencies and recently the results have been noticed by others. I'm pleased at the amount of times he has come home from practice or come in from hitting and told me how well he is hitting (confidence) and how good it feels. With out prompting he tells me it is easier to make adjustments. Like Sean, he's never been so pumped about his swing but has always been a hard worker.

Don't know if there is one right way for all, but I think we found what works for my son as Sean found what works for him.

Best of luck to all who may be searching for a better way for you. If you have not found it, keep looking.

tom.guerry

10-20-2007, 09:31 AM

There go the posse, piling on and claiming PCR is in the video.

Trouble is, this is NOT what LUGO is doing.

LUGO is not using some simplified Nyman based swing where yo just tilt and turn the bat in the shoulder plane/turn like heck/maintain the box/adjust bend at waist/hook hand path as needed.

Lugo and the vast majority of successful mlb hitters are using the body in an entirey different way.

They are adjusting and matching plane in an entirely different way.

They are preparig to swing way earlier with an entirely different sequence.

Nyman has NO idea what he is talking about when it comes to hitting.

He has tried to engineer a simple swing rather than analyze what the best mlb hitters actiually have in common about the way they swing.

Steve recognizes as does JJA, that this is a radically different swing that is more "purely rotational".

This is not an mlb swing and it isn't getting you closer to one.

Jim W.

10-20-2007, 09:49 AM

They are adjusting and matching plane in an entirely different way.

This is not an mlb swing and it isn't getting you closer to one.

So let me get this right, a hitter that was matching plane in a different way but has made slight changes to which he feels is more efficient and has improved power and confidence is a wrong way to hit?

:disbelief:

FiveFrameSwing

10-20-2007, 10:05 AM

Sean, stay away from lateral tilt and rotating forearms. That's beer league.

http://66.206.15.241/hmimgs/L_Gonzalez03.gif

I viewed the video of Gonzalez on a frame-by-frame basis.

For your information, he does laterally tilt immediately after heel-plant. This allow him initially move his hips ahead of his shoulders. Unlike in what Englishbey displayed, Gonzalez does demonstrate upper body torque.

Steve's statement that the upper body turns as a unit is in direct disagreement with Yeager's findings.

Steve is a big fella. He can probably produce well hitting off of a tee without upper body torque. However, recommending that students turn as a unit is probably not the best of advice for those that aren't as physically sound, or even those that are physically sound.

FiveFrameSwing

10-20-2007, 10:08 AM

Forget about separation.

Yeager documents as fact the importance of separation.

Epstein has that right.

fpdad

10-20-2007, 11:22 AM

When the hips move forward, they load the torso, and pull the back shoulder down; it's blended very quickly into rotation so it can be hard to see.
And the shoulders and arms are loading against this, and there are lots of ways to do this, as long as you don't screw up getting to the launch position.
This hip leading creates separation from the upper body. And as the hips start to rotate, the upper body, and of course the bat naturally lags behind, also separation.

Now do you want to teach to separate a lot and tilt the shoulders independently, or does it just happen?

For example, a hitter who turns the front leg open a lot and pulls the arms way back is creating separation, but this takes more time. Usually they're more upright too.

You might gain some speed from greater separation, maybe, but you also lose quickness, if you not tying tightly the lower body to upper body.
I look at a good compromise between speed and quickness, is the hips move forward to load the body (and this is a quick move), which doesn't move much back, creates a tight separation, and then once everything is hooked up, you try to turn everything at once. The upper body lags behind due to inertia, and then catchs up.

So "separation" happens, but how do you want to teach it?

Going no stride, and learning to just turn from a basic loaded setup, without a lot of separation, can be looked as a starting step in trying to teach a hitter how to use their body better.
It's hard to learn to use your body, esp. the hips, when you've got your legs and arms going all over the place!
Hopefully as they get better, then you can add in a stride, and more dynamic shoulder loading, and get what you see in high level hitters.
Start simple, add more as they can.

Encinitas

10-20-2007, 11:29 AM

So it won't happen in 10 swings? Sean, stay away from lateral tilt and rotating forearms. That's beer league.

http://66.206.15.241/hmimgs/L_Gonzalez03.gif

What can you say? Simplicity.

Sean -- congrats on your efforts. You're with a guy that knows what he's doing and most importantly understands cause and effect. Keep at it and stay away from feel good posts and magic fixes. Forget about separation. Think kinetic chain and understand the coordination and timing of your loading and how it impacts unloading. Chess gets this.

C'mon how can you say there is no separation or it isn't worth teaching.

The high barrel is but one way to ensure that your chances of separation are better and clearly many great hitters do it. Mechanical advantage is to have a higher barrel when the foot gets down, but not an absolute if you can still get the hips going.

In your clip however, Luis Gonzalez' first shoulder move is....

Does it go right, or does it rise up first? Are the hips not clearly started with the hands back? I see a frame or two of lateral tilt before the shoulders are forced along for the ride by the hips.

In the front view I see the hips well open before the barrel gets into the zone.

http://www.hittingillustrated.com/library/Gonzo1.gif

Clear the hips with the hand back. Simplicity.

FiveFrameSwing

10-20-2007, 12:40 PM

Now do you want to teach to separate a lot and tilt the shoulders independently, or does it just happen?

I would say yes. According to Yeager, upper body torque is a major source of power in the MLB swing.

I would say the opposite, or the teaching to move as a unit (ala SteveE), is the wrong way to go.

Epstien's Numbers Drill 1-2-3 is designed to teach this. The #2 is the torque position. Someone performing his numbers drill will hit using upper body torque, and hence satisfy Yeager's criteria for using one of the major sources of power in the elite MLB swing.

FiveFrameSwing

10-20-2007, 12:44 PM

You might gain some speed from greater separation, maybe, but you also lose quickness, if you not tying tightly the lower body to upper body.

I'm not sure I agree that you would necessarily lose quickness. I measure quickness as from the time that the hands say "go" up to ‘contact’. If the separation is greater, and the hands have yet to "go", then quickness isn't necessarily sacrificed, and could even be enhanced due to the greater amount of torque.

fpdad

10-20-2007, 01:04 PM

RayR

10-20-2007, 01:11 PM

Teaching a kid a lot of separation will prepare them for slow pitch.

Teach a kid how to rotate from an athletic posture and good separation will happen naturally.

FiveFrameSwing

10-20-2007, 01:17 PM

"If the separation is greater, and the hands have yet to "go", then quickness isn't necessarily sacrificed, and could even be enhanced due to the greater amount of torque."

Five Frame: I'll guess your swing is better than the kids, and you can utilize the greater separation; for them too much separation doesn't help them to be faster or quicker or put the barrel on the ball, it just makes them sloppier and slower and too armsy.
If you connect the lower body to the upper body better, then yeah, you'll get both.
My swing has gone down a frame, and increased 10mph, from working on using the hips better to load the body,
I had to start simply too, rather than by trying to create more separation initially.
This is my approach to learning/teaching.

Someone on here recently posted a good description of the degree of separation one should have. I believe it was Jim Booth. The description basically talked about taking the slack out of the links.

Since separation is part of the MLB swing, and since it is considered a major power source in the swing, I think it's questionable to teach a swing without separation. That's my viewpoint at this point in time, but I could be convinced otherwise with supporting data. At this point the bulk of the data seems to suggest that teaching separation in the swing is what is best for the student.

If you are stuck on how to teach separation, then there is decent documented material from sources suchas Epstein, Slaught, etc..

JJA

10-20-2007, 01:18 PM

Guys,

It all depends on what you want to emphasize early in the teaching method. For example, Lau concentrates on upper body motion first, then he goes to the lower body, and then he tries to synch the upper and lower body properly, including teaching some separation. There's lots of ways to get to the finish line. If someone wants to teach separation first because they think that's the best thing to start with, more power to them. What counts is the finished product. If your finished product looks good, then what steps you used to get there isn't particularly relevant.

The same goes for bat tipping. My buddy DMac of course loved it and there is no denying that the best players use it. But is that what you should teach at the first lesson? Not in my opinion. Lau teaches it only to his advanced students, usually college age. But if someone here can teach it to peewees and it works, again more power to you.

Tom's aspersions can once again be tossed aside with ease. He criticizes swings with 80 mph+ swing speeds and back quickness of less than 4.5 frames as being non-major league because he hates Nyman and Steve. I'll give everyone a hint. If you can develop a swing with those types of performance parameters, adding a little bat tipping and maybe a bit more separation is easy. And in the case of Lau, that's exactly what he does, but it is done at the end and not the beginning.

-JJA

fpdad

10-20-2007, 01:20 PM

"Epstien's Numbers Drill 1-2-3 is designed to teach this. The #2 is the torque position. Someone performing his numbers drill will hit using upper body torque."

I've used the Epstein drills for my daughters and teams I've coached.
I still think the torque occurs primarily from using the hips, and loading the body, and the shoulders react to/resist this. Rather than using the upper body and legs to cause this.
Epstein's "torque" drill uses the legs way opened aginst the upper body counterrotated back to create the separation.
I think this is a slower less quick method, and very common.
If you don't get the hips forward, combined with the weight staying back, which my students got with his drop n' tilt, then you will manipulate the shoulders proactively, creating an excessive tilt back, and not as well connected to the body.
Combine that with the lean back of having your weight on the backside, and you're going to have problems and you'll have to compensate by pushing the body or arms forward.
I see a shoulders lateral tilt in mlb hitters, but I think how you get there is important.

fpdad

10-20-2007, 01:27 PM

"If you can develop a swing with those types of performance parameters, adding a little bat tipping and maybe a bit more separation is easy."
This has been my experience too.
Now that I can use my hips and body better, I can utilize a more vertical bat, ie the bat further away from my launch postition, and I can stride way out.
It's funny, but I don't even think about stride or nostride much; it depends on my stance width and how much I coil my hips and reverse. My hips time the pitch.

FiveFrameSwing

10-20-2007, 01:40 PM

According to Yeager the Kinetic Link has two goals.

1. To maximize the timing and efficiency of the pushes from the legs

2. To maximize body segment separation which is done by moving a relaxed upper body behind the lower body.

If the objective is to hit with power, then ignoring either of these in your teachings is somewhat questionable.

<< If you don't get the hips forward, which is common with the weight staying back >>

Yeager gives specific advice here.

The best MLB hitters maintain a neutral spine during the stride portion of their swing.

Tilting the spine backwards in an attempt to leave weight on the back foot after completing the stride will actually push the momentum negative or backwards direction once the front foot is down. This results in a great loss of momentum transfer and reduces energy in the swing.

Stride: The hitter should always maintain a neutral spine (neck to belt buckle) until the entire front foot is planted.

fpdad

10-20-2007, 01:41 PM

"taking the slack out of the links"

I like this thought.
Do you take it out all at once, as a unit, when first learning?
From motor learning-degrees of freedom, when you first try to learn a new movement, usually you lock everything up/muscle.
And then as you get better, you get to this dynamically, and become more fluid.
Why great athletes look so smooth.
But I think you have to start simply.

jbooth

10-20-2007, 01:42 PM

Guys,

It all depends on what you want to emphasize early in the teaching method. For example, Lau concentrates on upper body motion first, then he goes to the lower body, and then he tries to synch the upper and lower body properly, including teaching some separation. There's lots of ways to get to the finish line. If someone wants to teach separation first because they think that's the best thing to start with, more power to them. What counts is the finished product. If your finished product looks good, then what steps you used to get there isn't particularly relevant.

The same goes for bat tipping. My buddy DMac of course loved it and there is no denying that the best players use it. But, is that what you should teach at the first lesson? Not in my opinion. Lau teaches it only to his advanced students, usually college age. But if someone here can teach it to peewees and it works, again more power to you.

-JJA

:applaud: I agree 100%

You have to start with fundamental moves, and then add in the advanced stuff. And, as you said, there are more than one way to teach. You can teach ground up, or top down, or something else. Personally, I teach ground up, and have had a lot of success. I've tried top down, and many other methods. What I do now, works well with most students. Ground up with 3 basic drills to start, and then tweak as necessary, and add in advanced stuff after the fundamentals are locked in.

FiveFrameSwing

10-20-2007, 01:50 PM

This post, from TwinEngine, was interesting.

:applaud: I agree 100%

You have to start with fundamental moves, and then add in the advanced stuff. And, as you said, there are more than one way to teach. You can teach ground up, or top down, or something else. Personally, I teach ground up, and have had a lot of success. I've tried top down, and many other methods. What I do now, works well with most students. Ground up with 3 basic drills to start, and then tweak as necessary, and add in advanced stuff after the fundamentals are locked in.

TwinEngine
Team Veteran Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 148

Quote:
Originally Posted by tadlock11
With your seconde engine theory bypassing the shoulders, are you saying that you DO believe that the swing is generated in the pelvic region (middle), then by-passes the shoulders and the forearms pick up the slack and continue?

Kind of. There are two engines. I'm usually accused of having only one, the hands/forearms. Yes, there are two. One is even bigger than the other. I'm not sure how much.

Engine #1 starts and works up to speed.

Engine #2 starts and works up to speed.

Which starts first is an interesting discussion. If you eliminate loading from the discussion I think everyone would agree that the hips move/rotate forward before the hands forearms move/rotate foreward. But if you put loading into the equation you can easily claim the hands/forearms start at least at the same time as the hips.

The two engines are both working against the shoulders to get up to speed. The shoulders provide a somewhat stationery platform (from a rotation standpoint) for them to work from. They provide resistance for them to work against. They keep from rotating by laterally tilting. Once lateral tilt is achieved they have connected to the body and will rotate with the hips but THEY ARE NOT ROTATING INDEPENDENTLY. THEY ARE SIMPLY MOVING WITH THE HIPS ROTATION. There is no transfer of energy in a kinetic chain sense from the hips to the shoulders....and then from the shoulders through the arms and to the hands...handle...barrel.

While that may be how the body generates max power, it is too slow developing, and too molasses-like compared to the speed and quickness necessary to hit top pitching. The Second Engine offers that in such a way as to allow a running start of both the engines with the energy of both combined into a sudden cusp.

When both engines are working against the shoulders in opposite directions....barrel is going backward...hips are rotating open, a build up of pressure/energy occurs in the shoulder area as they resist. During this resistance, as the barrel turns the corner from it's rearward arc, and as the shoulders laterally tilt, you can feel the forearms receive the hips energy. The bypass. Eventually they can not resist any longer. There is a stretch which can't be held and a burst occurs. Energy transfers immediately to what is already working.......the forearms....and the barrel is energized.

It is a cusp. There is no cusp without resistance.

In an earlier post I asked a poster to get in his stance and violently rotate his shoulders (as if to hit a ball). Then get in your stance and violently laterally tilt the shoulders and report back which is the quicker, cleaner, crisper, more explosive move. It's not even close. The lateral tilt move is highly leveraged compared to the sloppy shoulder rotation.

IMO there are two things that are undeniable. The vast majority of Mlb hitter's bats blur rearward in frame one. And, mlb hitter's bodys are not "inside" their barrel's swing plane. Their swing plane is diagonal and in front of them. Video is real clear on both issues.

The final thing that is clear to me is PCR has no answer for either.

FiveFrameSwing

10-20-2007, 01:51 PM

:
Ground up with 3 basic drills to start, and then tweak as necessary, and add in advanced stuff after the fundamentals are locked in.

You had to anticipate this question.

What are the three basic drills that you teach?

fpdad

10-20-2007, 01:58 PM

Yeager gives specific advice here.

The best MLB hitters maintain a neutral spine during the stride portion of their swing.

Tilting the spine backwards in an attempt to leave weight on the back foot after completing the stride will actually push the momentum negative or backwards direction once the front foot is down. This results in a great loss of momentum transfer and reduces energy in the swing.

Stride: The hitter should always maintain a neutral spine (neck to belt buckle) until the entire front foot is planted."

I agree strongly with this.
A good indication/marker of the upper body mass, is the head- it should be 50:50 or even slightly forward, at toe touch.
Also the less the head/spine moves back(esp.!) and forth,
the better. "Staying square".
The less the torso is moving all over the place, the more the hips can load it.

A lot of shifting the weight back is using the legs and upper body to load; and then you got to get forward again.
This weight back is like an anchor, dragging you down, and you have to apply alot of force to get forward. And you lose a lot of momentum.

I think mlb hitters, setup, with the head forward(ex.-Soriano, Ortiz, Bonds), and the hips can work easier underneath; as they move forward, they create a forward "pressure".
Other than some hip coil back, everything moves forward.
You gotta get there somehow.

jbooth

10-20-2007, 01:59 PM

Someone on here recently posted a good description of the degree of separation one should have. I believe it was Jim Booth. The description basically talked about taking the slack out of the links.

I didn't mention degrees, but here is what I stated in another thread that is a basic summary of what I think the fundamental moves are;

Basically my theory is; the hips start the swing, the shoulders get pulled by them, and then the shoulders try to "catch up" to the hips.

The shoulders move the knob initially, and then the arm/hands try to get the knob to "catch up" to the front shoulder. No energy is put into the bathead early.

It's like a race with a staggered start. The hands go last, but they are trying to reach the finish line at the same time as the hips, which started first. And, the bathead goes absolute last, but finishes (ball contact) just a little bit after the hips cross the finish line.

It's like a train starting to move when slack is in all the couplings. The engine (hips) move, and pull the slack out of the coupling to the next car (shoulders), then that car pulls on the next car (hands).

However, the arms are like a second engine on the train, and can provide some power to try to catch up with the hips. But, they must not fire until the hips get the shoulders going and the coupling from hips to hands has had all the slack removed.

jbooth

10-20-2007, 02:08 PM

RayR

10-20-2007, 02:09 PM

:applaud: I agree 100%

You have to start with fundamental moves, and then add in the advanced stuff. And, as you said, there are more than one way to teach. You can teach ground up, or top down, or something else. Personally, I teach ground up, and have had a lot of success. I've tried top down, and many other methods. What I do now, works well with most students. Ground up with 3 basic drills to start, and then tweak as necessary, and add in advanced stuff after the fundamentals are locked in.

Exactly!

And the most basic goal should be to get a 7-8 frame swing down to 5 or less for them to stay competitive as they advance in age and see better pitching.

Then, as you say, the advanced stuff can be worked in.

FiveFrameSwing

10-20-2007, 02:14 PM

I didn't mention degrees, but here is what I stated in another thread that is a basic summary of what I think the fundamental moves are;

Basically my theory is; the hips start the swing, the shoulders get pulled by them, and then the shoulders try to "catch up" to the hips.

The shoulders move the knob initially, and then the arm/hands try to get the knob to "catch up" to the front shoulder. No energy is put into the bathead early.

It's like a race with a staggered start. The hands go last, but they are trying to reach the finish line at the same time as the hips, which started first. And, the bathead goes absolute last, but finishes (ball contact) just a little bit after the hips cross the finish line.

It's like a train starting to move when slack is in all the couplings. The engine (hips) move, and pull the slack out of the coupling to the next car (shoulders), then that car pulls on the next car (hands).

However, the arms are like a second engine on the train, and can provide some power to try to catch up with the hips. But, they must not fire until the hips get the shoulders going and the coupling from hips to hands has had all the slack removed.

Thank you Jim. That is exactly the post I was thinking of. Simply excellent!

Your description is in agreement with Yeager's description (below).

What is the Kinetic Link?

The hips must be moving infront of the upper body before stopping so that momentum transfer can occur.

If the large segments are not pushed in front and all of the segments rotate at the same time then little momentum transfer has occurred. The hitter must avoid simultaneous rotation of body parts.

The idea that body parts reach a maximum velocity and then decelerate in order to pass their momentum to the following segment is a difficult concept for many people to believe.

Stretch or Elastic Reflex

Humans develop elastic energy by stretching or twisting their bodies.

The elastic energy is released when the bodies recoil or regain their original shape. (alignment of the hips with the shoulders)

The more the hitter is stretched the greater the release of elastic energy.

JJA

10-20-2007, 02:17 PM

Guys,

We obviously have some armchair instructors out there. You're giving the rank and file little league hitter a lot more credit than you should. When I get my 12 or 13 boys/girls each fall/spring, the vast majority can't hit a garden variety fastball. Many kids in little league or softball don't get a hit the whole season because they can't hit a fastball. My experience has been that it is because their swings aren't quick enough. They run the whole gamut of errors, but basically you're talking a 6-7 frame swing. This year I had a girl who actually had a 13 frame swing. I know, it sounds impossible, but that's what she clocked in at.

Sure, few of these kids are going to make it at the higher levels, but getting them a hit at this level is so uplifting for their self-esteem. For those who coach, to see the thrill on a players face when they get their first hit is worth all of the abuse of these forums. That's what it should be about. So when I see many of the instructors concentrating on swing quickness, I know exactly where they're coming from. If all of the players I had suffered from the "problem" of rotating the hips and shoulders together, I would be thrilled. Most kids don't rotate their hips, period, let alone both together in some semblance of connection.

Jim, liked most of your posts until you mentioned something about a "second engine". :blush: You might try rewording that one!

-JJA

RayR

10-20-2007, 02:22 PM

Thank you Jim. That is exactly the post I was thinking of. Simply excellent!

Your description is in agreement with Yeager's description (below).

What is the Kinetic Link?

The hips must be moving infront of the upper body before stopping so that momentum transfer can occur.

If the large segments are not pushed in front and all of the segments rotate at the same time then little momentum transfer has occurred. The hitter must avoid simultaneous rotation of body parts.

The idea that body parts reach a maximum velocity and then decelerate in order to pass their momentum to the following segment is a difficult concept for many people to believe.

Stretch or Elastic Reflex

Humans develop elastic energy by stretching or twisting their bodies.

The elastic energy is released when the bodies recoil or regain their original shape. (alignment of the hips with the shoulders)

The more the hitter is stretched the greater the release of elastic energy.

My question to this is how posture plays into it? Does Yeager talk about posture? Does it matter to him?

Is there any thought to the idea that momentum transfer will be more powerful (quicker/stronger) if the segmented body parts are linked as closely as possible?

The more the hitter is stretched the greater the release of elastic energy

I agree with this if you aspire to play slow pitch or want to make the PGA tour.

FiveFrameSwing

10-20-2007, 02:25 PM

If all of the players I had suffered from the "problem" of rotating the hips and shoulders together, I would be thrilled.

It still comes down to swing quickness, or stated differently, giving yourself more time to see the pitch before making your committment.

If you rotate the hips first, then that portion of the swing can be worked in prior to committing to the swing (since the hands have yet to go).

It's sort of like when Jim says "the hands are the last to go". By getting into a torque position you have in effect started a portion of your swing, yet have not yet committed to execute the swing. This in effect gives you more time to see the pitch before deciding on whether or not to go ahead and complete your swing.

If you are trying to give your students more time to see a pitch, then teaching them separation and upper body torque helps them do this. Teaching them to swing in a manner that the hips and shoulders are connected without body torque actually gives them less time to see the pitch. Why would you purposely teach something that gives the hitter less time to see the pitch?

fpdad

10-20-2007, 02:25 PM

"Rudy Jaramillo of the Texas Rangers teaches his hitters to think of "reaching" out with the front foot, rather than "stepping forward" onto it. This keeps your head back and prevents lunging. Reach out the front foot then rotate as it gets weighted. He teaches to reach out, then rotate. And, be sure to drive the back knee down."

My buddy, Jim/joof, has met Rudy and some of the minor league hitting instructors and among other things, has shown them his "balance board", that basically shows the weight distribution, and where you want to be at toetouch.
I'll have to ask Jim, where they wanted you to be at, but they got pretty excited abouyt the board.
I believe Rudy wants his hitters to get to toetouch early.

I think you "reach out"with the hips and not the front leg.
This "weights" the front leg, without "shifting" the weight early.

FiveFrameSwing

10-20-2007, 02:32 PM

The more the hitter is stretched the greater the release of elastic energy

I agree with this if you aspire to play slow pitch or want to make the PGA tour.

Can't agree, but perhaps if you provide supporting data I might agree.

Understand that the torquing process takes place prior to the hitter committing his hands. There is plenty of time to achieve sufficient upper body torque/separation before the hands need to fire. I believe what Yeager is saying is that the greater amount of torque will end up resulting in a quicker firing of the hands if you decide to fire the hands.

Would be interested in understanding why you think it is wrong for MLB players to exhibit upper body torque (which they do).

jbooth

10-20-2007, 02:32 PM

You had to anticipate this question.

What are the three basic drills that you teach?

:disbelief: What!? You want me to give up my teaching secrets?:D

You have to pay for that.:laugh

Seriously;

I start with a drill that teaches the student how to rotate correctly. ie keep the torso and head centered, turn the hips and get the legs into the bent back leg/straight front leg position. Essentially, teaching how to rotate from stance position to contact postion, focusing on the lower body movement, (legs/hips) keeping the torso centered.

Step 2, is to learn how to get the bat from launch to contact position correctly. Proper use of the shoulders, arms and hands during rotation.

Step 3, is the infamous modified fence drill, that enforces proper bat lag.

My acronym is HHH, which means swing in the sequence of;

Hips, Handle, Head (batHead)

I also focus on What, Why, and How. Meaning, that you need to understand exactly What needs to be done. Why it is important, and then work on your own individual style and technique for How YOU can accomplish the What.

I let the student figure out his own feel and cues for HOW to execute the proper fundamentals. As long as he/she is accomplishing the proper fundamental "what", I don't care what cue they use for themselves or how they feel they are doing it.

jbooth

10-20-2007, 02:46 PM

Guys,

For those who coach, to see the thrill on a players face when they get their first hit is worth all of the abuse of these forums.

:clapping You better believe it, and seeing their face when they hit their first HR over the fence is even better. About 90% of the kids I have taught over the last 3 years, hit at least one HR by the end of their 12 year-old season. I've seen some of them and they are trotting on air around the bases. It's great. Or, when they come to a lesson and tell you about it.

That's what it should be about.

Yep.

Most kids don't rotate their hips, period, let alone both together in some semblance of connection.

Yep, again.

Jim, liked most of your posts until you mentioned something about a "second engine". :blush: You might try rewording that one!

-JJA

Yeah, I thought about it. I do NOT mean it the way Richard does, but since the analogy was related to a train, I didn't have much choice.:sorry:

FiveFrameSwing

10-20-2007, 02:48 PM

Thank you Jim.

Your initial drills seem somewhat similar to the goals of Epstein's drills.

When I read your third drill and saw the words "fence drill" and "enforces" in the same sentence I smiled ... because Epstein's name for his third drill is the Enforcer Drill, which is basically the Fence Drill.

For comparison, the purposes of Epstein's three primary drills are.

Torque Drill:
· First drill used
· Oversimplifies correct swing
· Only one thing for student to do – swing!
· Teaches the body that hips must be open and the top-half closed at launch position
· Teaches the three core movements of the rotational swing
o Hips lead hands
o Match swing plane to pitch plane
o Stay inside ball

The Numbers Drill breaks the swing down into "load", "hips" (torque position, hips before shoulders), "swing".

The Enforcer Drill is basically the Fence Drill. The purpose is to help teach the hands staying "inside the ball".

I do appreciate that Epstein covers upper body torque in his three primary drills. My biggest problem with his teachings is with the weight distribution to the back thigh and the teaching of backwards upper body lean.

Thank you for sharing.

jbooth

10-20-2007, 03:00 PM

If you rotate the hips first, then that portion of the swing can be worked in prior to committing to the swing (since the hands have yet to go).

It's sort of like when Jim says "the hands are the last to go". By getting into a torque position you have in effect started a portion of your swing, yet have not yet committed to execute the swing. This in effect gives you more time to see the pitch before deciding on whether or not to go ahead and complete your swing.

That's correct. MLB hitters start the lower half as they are reading the pitch. They keep the upper half/hands back until they decide to go. With the torso pre-stretched, when they decide to go the upper half gets around VERY quickly.

If you start the body in one piece after you decide to go, you won't be as quick or powerful, AND you will have trouble adjusting to change of speed. If you're looking fastball and it's a change-up you're dead, you've started everything and will be way ahead. And if you wait too long on a fastball, to get the body going, you'll never get the bat around in time. You see MLB hitters when they "check swing" or take a pitch late, they're hips are done but, they hold up the bat.

If you are trying to give your students more time to see a pitch, then teaching them separation and upper body torque helps them do this. Teaching them to swing in a manner that the hips and shoulders are connected without body torque actually gives them less time to see the pitch. Why would you purposely teach something that gives the hitter less time to see the pitch?

That's correct. Basically what I stated above.

StraightGrain11

10-20-2007, 03:02 PM

RayR

10-20-2007, 03:09 PM

Can't agree, but perhaps if you provide supporting data I might agree.

Understand that the torquing process takes place prior to the hitter committing his hands. There is plenty of time to achieve sufficient upper body torque/separation before the hands need to fire. I believe what Yeager is saying is that the greater amount of torque will end up resulting in a quicker firing of the hands if you decide to fire the hands.

Would be interested in understanding why you think it is wrong for MLB players to exhibit upper body torque (which they do).

I do not have data, except for swings I see of some of my HS players. Too vertical, hips and shoulders too separated and mainly an arm swing and too slow to contact. Why? IMO, because they so not understand posture and connection. Sure, once in a while the timing syncs up and they crush one, but I would rather have more solid contact then the occasional HR.

Our best hitter last year used a very pronounced crouch/posture. We just worked on keeping the bat from getting too flat and turning into the ball. Simple.

This winter the plan is to add some more loading into the swing without sacrificing frames. Otherwise, what is the point.

And my point is that if you start by teaching too much separation, most young hitters will not gain quickness they will lose it because too much separation usually results in poor posture. And posture (I am not breaking and new ground here) loads the torso from the hips to shoulders and links everything up quickly.

As a test, stand straight up and rotate your hips while keeping your shoulders from moving. Easy, right? Now, get into a deadlift type position and rotate the same way. Feels different, doesn't it?

So, then the question becomes why would you want to teach a swing that needs to start earlier than you have to.

Does more separation and stretch create more power? I agree with that it does. But, in FP and baseball you are dealing with time constraint. And getting the barrel on the ball as quick as possible will help more kids then it will hurt.

JJA

10-20-2007, 03:18 PM

Fiveframe,

It still comes down to swing quickness, or stated differently, giving yourself more time to see the pitch before making your committment.

Again, you must be working with a much higher caliber player than most of us, or at least me. Swing quickness is NOT the same as giving yourself more time before making your committment. It's how long it takes getting your bat to the ball AFTER making your committment. The average little leaguer gets fastball after fastball after fastball. He/she knows what is coming. He/she is physically unable to get the bat to the ball fast enough because of poor swing mechanics. That's #1 what I work on with the majority of players I see, and is what a lot of people are referring to when they talk about improving the swing quickness of the player they are working on. Separation does NOT help with this problem.

Of course, once a player is able to get to the ball quickly enough after committing, in other words they can hit a garden variety fastball, then one of the next natural progressions is to learn to hit an offspeed pitch. In this case I could see how separation MIGHT help in this case, but there are lots of other equally effective ways of teaching how to hit an offspeed pitch. Like I said earlier, I view separation as something to be touched upon later, that it isn't a skill that needs to be addressed early in a players career. There are plenty of other things that have much higher priority than that. But if it works well with you and your students, great.

-JJA

StraightGrain11

10-20-2007, 03:19 PM

If you are trying to give your students more time to see a pitch, then teaching them separation and upper body torque helps them do this. Teaching them to swing in a manner that the hips and shoulders are connected without body torque actually gives them less time to see the pitch. Why would you purposely teach something that gives the hitter less time to see the pitch?

Depends on how you mean by "commected." You can have the hips and shoulders moved "connected" with separation. :eek:
Think of it this way....
Take two marshmallows. Put two tooth picks, in each, sticking out on opposite sides (like outstretched arms) for reference. Now stack them on top of each other with all four tooth picks on the same plane. Spin the stick in your fingers; all 4 move together - connected. NOW, offset one of the marshmallows so the toothpicks are no longer on the same plane - separation. :) Spin the stick again. Again, all 4 move together - connected. Being "connected" can occur with separation...it just depends on how you look at it, I guess...

tom.guerry

10-20-2007, 03:29 PM

JJA -

We just got through agreeing you want the young one to swing just like the pro and now you are saying that you teach first one thing, then another.

PCR is an entirely different way of using the body. you don't start with the core and then add separation.

Notice Epstein has success starting with separation (torque drill) and connection (bat on deltoid) and creating cusp by upper/lower body synch (drop and tilt) then you optimize that existing pattern with better upper body action when you know what the basic pattern feels like and go hands free/take bat off deltoid.

Epstein knows what the mlb destination feels like. The drills are done with this particular destination in mind. You don't learn an entirely different pattern/way of adjusting, then add on stuff to get an mlb pattern which is what you are suggesting.

ACTUAL MEASUREMENTS of separation in the mlb pattern have been done. you do not have to speculate here.

The idea is NOT lots of separation, the idea is well timed and directed and quick stretch and fire. This quick stretch/fire/cusp is not possible when you bend way over (force early/gradual separation from turning shoulders and hips in very different planes) then try to turn from the middle or turn everything together or turn the torso and shoulders actively. This all smooths out the cusp, making it less quick and prevents keeping the hands and shoulders back/resisting which is necessary for starting the acceleration deeper behind the batter as well as for getting a sharp quick "cusp".

This turn everything together/swing club in shoulder plane type sequence is fine in golf/off tee. Not in mlb. Maybe OK in lower level ball where hot bats are allowed.

MLB hitters do NOT turn the torso/shoulders actively. They control how the torso and shoulders turn by how they coordinate the movement of the hips and hands.

Active torso turn/shoulder turn is the cause of drag/loss of quickness lack of deep contact and lack of accurate adjustment (forces you to adjust/commit too early).

Zig measures typical mlb shoulder/hip separation as 15 degrees (xfactor) with the neg/posive move, then an additional 12 degrees (xfactor stretch) with the drop and tilt (due to shoulders resisting as hips fire).

The Epstein estimate is that total 30 degrees equates with 30 homers/season.

Zig's motionanalysis data summary for mlb hitters:

".....Let's assume you haven't seen it. For starters, the hitter takes a stance in any position (this position is random and stylistic and should not be considered the stance because it varies so much from each player). This position is comfortable and allows them them to prepare for the first phase of the swing (negative move) often referred to as loading, or wind up or whatever terminology you want to use. In this loading phase, which many of you call a backwards weight shift, the best athletes have a slight change in the position of the hips and shoulders, closing to a position of approximately 25 degrees of the hips and 40 degrees of the shoulders {X-Factor is now approximately 15} (This is accurate to 1mm)

"The forward swing is then initiated at the ground with the application of force to the back foot. As force is applied to the back foot, it creates a linear shift of weight, at the same time, their is a release of rotational energy around (rotating) from the front foot up to the hip of the front leg (the heal of which has dropped during the linear/rotational shift, to provide a solid front side to hit against). At this point there is an X-factor stretch of approximately 12 degrees (x-factor stretch is an increase in the degree of separation between the hips and shoulders). Epstein, is slightly wrong on X-factor, too much can be a bad thing. Especially if you do not have the abdominal recovery strength to go with the flexibilty it takes to create a large x-factor. But x-factor is an important part of the swing."

http://www.batspeed.com/messageboard/output/10685.html

Encinitas

10-20-2007, 03:34 PM

Exactly!

And the most basic goal should be to get a 7-8 frame swing down to 5 or less for them to stay competitive as they advance in age and see better pitching.

Then, as you say, the advanced stuff can be worked in.

Realistically the old maxim of 5 frame swing is out the door. Bonds separation and ability to get the bat head flat takes this swing down to about 3 frames.

http://www.hittingillustrated.com/library/Bonds5c.gif

As you can see with Posada, there is a lower body running start, hands stay back, after the hips have gotten going. He sees fastball, he can go, when he sees offspeed he can hold longer because 2 of the 5 frames are done.

http://www.hittingillustrated.com/library/Posadasidebyside.gif

tom.guerry

10-20-2007, 03:36 PM

JimW said -

"So let me get this right, a hitter that was matching plane in a different way but has made slight changes to which he feels is more efficient and has improved power and confidence is a wrong way to hit?"

Jim W, it al depends on your destination.

Unforutnately, what works well off the tee or at a level when you have time to recognize location well is not what works in mlb where the perfect swing is mainly about the adjustment you can make and how that fits with your mental approach.

If mlb is your destination/the type of swing you are emulating, then you should be swinging in the mlb late stretch and fire/early batspeed/adjust with upper body pattern, not PCR bend at waist.

Two entirely different ways of rotating/using the body.

mlb/stretch and fire/early batspeed/late adjustment

PCR/brute strength rotation/late batspeed/early adjustment

jbooth

10-20-2007, 03:52 PM

Take two marshmallows. Put two tooth picks, in each, sticking out on opposite sides (like outstretched arms) for reference. Now stack them on top of each other with all four tooth picks on the same plane. Spin the stick in your fingers; all 4 move together - connected. NOW, offset one of the marshmallows so the toothpicks are no longer on the same plane - separation. :) Spin the stick again. Again, all 4 move together - connected. Being "connected" can occur with separation...it just depends on how you look at it, I guess...

Yes, that is separated, connected rotation of the two halves, but the purpose of separation is to create a stretch of the side muscles so that they pull the top marshmallow back in line with the bottom one.

You could separate as you stated and start to rotate, but then the top should "catch up" with the bottom during rotation.

This IS close to how MLB hitters achieve both separation and quickness. They have the front shoulder already angled in a little before they stride, so they are set like your marshmallow. Then when they start to turn the bottom half, it doesn't take much of a movement to get fully stretched because their top and bottom were already separated at the time they started rotation. That's what "keep the front shoulder in" cue is for. So, you can get a stretch. If you turn the shoulder out early, you eliminate the separation and prevent any stretch, and you have a slow swing and possibly pull out too.

StraightGrain11

10-20-2007, 03:54 PM

Realistically the old maxim of 5 frame swing is out the door. Bonds separation and ability to get the bat head flat takes this swing down to about 3 frames.

http://www.hittingillustrated.com/library/Bonds5c.gif

Can you explain the "# Frame Swing" to me? :confused:
Wouldn't it depend on the speed of the camera? Or is there a preset time to which frame lengths/intervals are based on?

JJA

10-20-2007, 04:01 PM

Many people use a different definition of swing quickness. I use the one espoused by DMac, who scouted baseball for a living. It's basically the number of frames it takes after the front foot comes down. Not quite exactly right, as Doug also took into account when the bat started forward. But if you count from when the front foot comes down to contact, it's basically 4-4.5 video frames for MLB'ers. Other definitions like Teacherman come up with other numbers like that used earlier.

jbooth

10-20-2007, 04:10 PM

Like I said earlier, I view separation as something to be touched upon later, that it isn't a skill that needs to be addressed early in a players career. There are plenty of other things that have much higher priority than that. But if it works well with you and your students, great.

-JJA

Matter of opinion and teaching method, or philosophy. I teach it as one of the first elements of the swing, in the learning of the leg and hip movements, which I teach first. I teach it that way to kids 8 years old, and once they get the bottom going right, the rest comes pretty easy and their swings are quick and powerful because I started them out with powering the swing from the bottom.

I actually think it is very difficult to get them to learn to turn the hips, if they learn the upper body and arm stuff first. But, if it works for you, that's great. It didn't work for me.

I pound it into their heads, that they need to leave the hands and bathead alone, and turn the body. Hips, Handle, Head. Works for all ages.

The problem that most 10 and unders have; is doing the reverse. They practically swing in the sequence, Head, Handle, Hips. THAT makes a long slow swing!

StraightGrain11

10-20-2007, 04:41 PM

RayR

10-20-2007, 05:02 PM

30 frame/sec for a 5 frame swing

60 frame/sec for a 10 frame swing

StraightGrain11

10-20-2007, 05:03 PM

30 sec/frame for a 5 frame swing

60 sec/frame for a 10 frame swing

Thanks :)
Just makin sure I keep my info straight.

FiveFrameSwing

10-20-2007, 05:16 PM

And my point is that if you start by teaching too much separation, most young hitters will not gain quickness they will lose it because too much separation usually results in poor posture.

Please see Jim's post above. He correctly draws the opposite conclusion.

So, then the question becomes why would you want to teach a swing that needs to start earlier than you have to.

Again, see Jim's post above for a good description on why. He also points out that this is how MLB hitters swing. Hence it's verified.

Does more separation and stretch create more power? I agree with that it does. But, in FP and baseball you are dealing with time constraint. And getting the barrel on the ball as quick as possible will help more kids then it will hurt.

We agree that more separation and stretch creates more power. It also allows you to begin committing your hands until later in the swing, and hence gives you more time. You get a faster, more powerful swing with more time to review the pitch prior to firing the hands.

See Jim's post above. It explains this very well.

FiveFrameSwing

10-20-2007, 05:23 PM

Again, you must be working with a much higher caliber player than most of us, or at least me.

It has nothing to do with working with higher level players.

It has everything to do with giving the hitter more time to see the pitch while simultaneously giving them more power and a faster swing.

Review Epstein's drills. He only has three basic drills.

In his very first drill he gets the student into an upper body torque position and has then learn to familiarize themselves from swinging from a torqued position.

In Epstein's second drill he teaches the student how to get their body into a torqued position and swing that.

Upper body torque allows you to commit your hands late, gives you more time to see the pitch, and initiates hand movement from a position that forcefully accelerates the hands. The swing is faster and the hands commit later.

What I like about Epstein is that he understands the importance of upper body torque and he begins teaching students with the requirement that they hit from a torqued position.

It has nothing to do with age, as all hitters see a benefit from swinging faster and committing the hands later.

RayR

10-20-2007, 05:33 PM

Please see Jim's post above. He correctly draws the opposite conclusion.

Again, see Jim's post above for a good description on why. He also points out that this is how MLB hitters swing. Hence it's verified.

We agree that more separation and stretch creates more power. It also allows you to begin committing your hands until later in the swing, and hence gives you more time. You get a faster, more powerful swing with more time to review the pitch prior to firing the hands.

See Jim's post above. It explains this very well.

Maybe one of you guys can post a clip of one of your students who swings like this. If I see with my own eyes and the frame count is as you say I can get on board with this.

FiveFrameSwing

10-20-2007, 06:04 PM

That's what "keep the front shoulder in" cue is for. So, you can get a stretch. If you turn the shoulder out early, you eliminate the separation and prevent any stretch, and you have a slow swing and possibly pull out too.

On a very similar note, I've been experimenting with getting the bat more vertical when reaching toe-touch. What I find is that it tipping the bat in this manner results in the front shoulder lowering when tipping the bat, and further enhances torque. Still experimenting with this, but so far I'm liking the additional torque and the ability to better cover all areas of the plate.

JJA

10-20-2007, 06:16 PM

Straightgrain,

Sorry. A standard camcorder is 30 frames/sec, or 33 milliseconds/frame. In other words, a 4-4.5 frame standard for an MLB player equates to about 132-149 milliseconds from start of swing to contact. That again corresponds to DMac's definition given earlier.

Fiveframe,

I'll repeat that swing quickness as nothing to do with separation. Having more time to see the pitch is a desirable property, but having additional time doesn't mean that a swing is quick or not quick. Apples and oranges.

-JJA

FiveFrameSwing

10-20-2007, 06:18 PM

Maybe one of you guys can post a clip of one of your students who swings like this. If I see with my own eyes and the frame count is as you say I can get on board with this.

These obviously aren't my students, but you can quickly verify that the majority of MLB hitters create upper body torque.

http://imageevent.com/siggy/hitting/

My students perform a drill very similar to Epstein's Numbers drill. I don't permit them to advance further until they can demonstrate to me that they can move from a 1: Ready position; to 2: an upper body torque position; and then swing from there. After demonstrating that they can get to their body into a proper upper body torque position, I then have them hit from the ready position and verify that their swing passes through an upper body torque position (which is equivalent to Epstein's 1-3 drill). I have my students perform this at every instruction, and verify to me that they hit with the creation of upper body torque.

You might not like Epstein's backwards upper body lean or the weight emphasis on the thigh of the back leg, but I'm convinced that his emphasis on upper body torque is correct.

It is also my opinion that MLB players are forced to hit in such a highly efficient manner because of the intense competition. It makes sense to me that we learn what they are doing and teach that.

StraightGrain11

10-20-2007, 06:31 PM

It is also my opinion that MLB players are forced to hit in such a highly efficient manner because of the intense competition. It makes sense to me that we learn what they are doing and teach that.

I'll agree with that. :)

But you must also remember, when you start talking about "what professional players do," you are referring to people not just with exceptional ability, but the BEST ability (in the world). Are they more efficient because they have to be or because their abilities allow them to be? (To keep this safe - it's both :nod:)

4for4

10-20-2007, 07:05 PM

C'mon how can you say there is no separation or it isn't worth teaching.

C'mon, where did I say that. Try to read and comprehend a little better what others write instead of cherry picking information.

The high barrel is but one way to ensure that your chances of separation are better and clearly many great hitters do it. Mechanical advantage is to have a higher barrel when the foot gets down, but not an absolute if you can still get the hips going.

Verbiage. There's no subtance here. And you can't just say clearly cause your guy does and wish it to be so. Tell us how the chances are better. If it gives you a headache, take an advil and try again.

In your clip however, Luis Gonzalez' first shoulder move is....

Does it go right, or does it rise up first? Are the hips not clearly started with the hands back? I see a frame or two of lateral tilt before the shoulders are forced along for the ride by the hips.

Ok I've done this before, but I'll do it again for you this one time:

http://66.206.15.241/hmimgs/TheShoulderTurn.gif

In the front view I see the hips well open before the barrel gets into the zone.

http://www.hittingillustrated.com/library/Gonzo1.gif

Clear the hips with the hand back. Simplicity.

Like I said forget separation and think kinetic chain babe. It's about loading and unloading.

4for4

10-20-2007, 07:27 PM

More cherry picking. Here's how Dmac described it in the past:

I basically do it the same way as Steve, except I tie in the footplant and first bathead movement together. Most of the time the bathead will start moving when the foot is planted solidly, but not always. If the hitter picks up the change or something other than a fastball he will usually have a slight delay (about 1 frame) before the bat starts to move. In that case, I will go on the first bathead movement. For the most part, I go on first bathead movement, but the good hitters have it going at the same time the foot is firmly planted, so you will get the same count either way if the hitter is sitting fastball and gets a fastball.

When scouting, I will run the clip back and forth about 10 times, so that I am sure in my mind of the frame count. The real good amatuer HS and College hitters are 4-5 frames when they get the fastball.

Full thread can be seen here (http://englishbeyhitting.com/forums/index.php?topic=182.msg4910#msg4910).

For him, as he explained it, if a player was more than 5 frames, he wasn't interested. He apparently used this standard in recommending multi-million dollar mlb contracts. Not some "yep, yep, nope, who knows, whoopdy doo, me an you" standard from left field.

Realistically the old maxim of 5 frame swing is out the door. Bonds separation and ability to get the bat head flat takes this swing down to about 3 frames.

http://www.hittingillustrated.com/library/Bonds5c.gif

As you can see with Posada, there is a lower body running start, hands stay back, after the hips have gotten going. He sees fastball, he can go, when he sees offspeed he can hold longer because 2 of the 5 frames are done.

http://www.hittingillustrated.com/library/Posadasidebyside.gif

hiddengem

10-20-2007, 08:33 PM

I believe Rudy wants his hitters to get to toetouch early.

What he ultimately wants and what I heard him talk alot about in Spring Training, was to be "ready" on time. The whole reaching out with the front toe and having it down early, I didn't buy and didn't like.

What I did like was making sure my separation was done on time and under control. You run into trouble at my level when you are rushing to get the process done. You start jumping at balls, you end up late on the fastball and early on the breaking ball. Timing is everything and it changes from pitcher to pitcher. You should have your timing down on deck so you are ready for the first pitch and not suprised with anything.

The hitters that are most successful at the upper levels of pro ball are the ones that are able to slow things down and not feel rushed and out of control at the plate.

I was able to get away with all sorts of crap at the amature level, doesn't cut it in the pro scene.

FiveFrameSwing

10-20-2007, 09:01 PM

http://66.206.15.241/hmimgs/TheShoulderTurn.gif

Don't know why you wrote "There is no lateral shoulder tilt" on the video caption. The lateral tilt is clearly there for all to see.

The red line you drew is not level with the shoulders. Note the sleeves on his shirt have a 'blue' section, and if you connected up the same blue/white portion on each sleeve on both shoulders then you'd get a more honest representation. It is this lateral tilt that helped him to turn his hips ahead of his shoulders. Try it out for yourself. I think you'll find that even a small amount of lateral tilt will help you get your hips rotating ahead of your shoulders.

fpdad

10-20-2007, 09:37 PM

"What I did like was making sure my separation was done on time and under control. You run into trouble at my level when you are rushing to get the process done."

My kids run into thew same trouble at the level they're at too!
Rushing and then being early or late.

What has been helping them is to get some early separation, by shifting their hips forward early, either in their setup or before they coil/load.
They have a hard time getting the hips forward if they start later.
This gets them over their front leg, weights it so they don't straighten it too early, and off the back side- they like to shift back and get stuck there.'
And the head isn't moving back and forth either!
Then it's easier to coil/uncoil the hips, and this helps their timing.
Nice thing is that they're quicker, faster and hit the ball more solid this way.

Stealth

10-20-2007, 09:58 PM

4for4 - Do you REALLY see no tilt in that clip? Simply amazing..........

4for4

10-20-2007, 10:02 PM

No Chris, you're confusing the fact that the front arm is up and the back arm is down and slightly back. There is no lateral tilt. The shoulder is coming down and around toward contact. The video clearly shows this. In the prior frames of the clip, the shoulders start horizontal until toe touch when they begin to rotate around. You need only watch the front shoulder rotate up at the same time the rear is rotating down and around. You can see this when the front shoulder rotates above and around the red line and the rear rotates down below and around the red line. It's pretty simple. There's another part of this that's confusing you, but I don't want to overload you right now.

I've already been down the lateral tilt road. It's flawed. It doesn't work and it doesn't do what you think it does. You've confused Slaught, now your confusing Epstein type stuff with what is high level. I appreciate you giving it a shot, but it looks like your understanding is still pretty far off, but keep looking at the video, it's all there if you want to see it.

Don't know why you wrote "There is no lateral shoulder tilt" on the video caption. The lateral tilt is clearly there for all to see.

The red line you drew is not level with the shoulders. Note the sleeves on his shirt have a 'blue' section, and if you connected up the same blue/white portion on each sleeve on both shoulders then you'd get a more honest representation. It is this lateral tilt that helped him to turn his hips ahead of his shoulders. Try it out for yourself. I think you'll find that even a small amount of lateral tilt will help you get your hips rotating ahead of your shoulders.

4for4

10-20-2007, 10:05 PM

Is that it??

4for4 - Do you REALLY see no tilt in that clip? Simply amazing..........

Stealth

10-20-2007, 10:19 PM

Is that it??

Yes - if you really see no tilt in that clip there is no reason to enter into a debate.

4for4

10-20-2007, 10:25 PM

Unbelievable. I just saw this and am stunned Chris. You come on here with a new id as this FiveFrameSwing acting as thought you have no idea who Englishbey is, that you've just watched this DVD for the first time, parsing all the way when all along you've known who he is and owned all his DVDs, participated on his website and even commented about the videos in his library. Statements from you such as:

Thanks Steve!

"video no.9" was exactly what I was looking for and addresses my concern.

I greatly appreciate the timely response and you taking the time to put out that video.

And

Excellent demonstration.

I work with a few girls that stride by lifting their legs up first, as opposed to initiating the stride with the rear hip as demonstrated. Often they will appear to be almost "reaching" with their rear leg and end up unbalanced when they reach toe-touch. Following Steve's instruction greatly promotes balance at toe-touch.

Nice!

This is what internet trolls do. Who are you shilling for? You come on here to purposely try to confuse this community with who you are and what you are all about. This after the past year touting Slaught on eteamz as Megs and showing how you were coaching a student with some of your crazy interpretations. It's one thing to come here and talk honestly in what you believe and to agree or disagree. But coming on here with a hidden identity and an agenda is beyond the pale. None of your posts can be trusted.

I viewed the Englishbey's Swing Training Basics DVD with a friend tonight.

I'm scratching my head and wondering why this guy is getting so much press on here.

All of the swings that were demonstrated have the shoulder and hips connected. Not once did I see the hips leading the shoulders. Absolutely no upper body torque, which according to Yeager is one of the top two sources of power in the swing.

The mechanics of the swing being taught basically boil down to
1: sitting or tilting (Posture)
2: treat the hands, arms, shoulders and hips as connected (Connection)
3: rotate into the ball (Rotation)

The two main sources of power in the swing weren't discussed. Instead a quick comment is made that the prime source of the power comes from rotation. The whole Kinetic Link principle is missed.

According to Yeager, the hips must be moving infront of the upper body before stopping so that momentum transfer can occur.

If the large segments are not pushed in front and all of the segments rotate at the same time then little momentum transfer has occurred. The hitter must avoid simultaneous rotation of body parts. Englishbey appears to totally miss this point.

The idea that body parts reach a maximum velocity and then decelerate in order to pass their momentum to the following segment appears to be a difficult concept for Englishbey to grasp.

I did like the "maintain the box concept". I think Jim Booth says it better, and correct me if I'm wrong, but the idea is to maintain the angle in the lead-arm as long as possible (until one turns the corner). Now if you take this concept and add Lau's/Peavy's concept of lead-arm extention, then you can really hit the ball hard with a "connected" swing. I did find it interesting that in Englishbey's demonstrations that he used early top-hand release.

Overall, the swing that he demonstrated didn't match up well with the MLB swing. My biggest issue with it would be the lack of upper body torque.

4for4

10-20-2007, 10:25 PM

Ok.......,,,

Yes - if you really see no tilt in that clip there is no reason to enter into a debate.

4for4

10-20-2007, 10:38 PM

The two main sources of power in the swing weren't discussed. Instead a quick comment is made that the prime source of the power comes from rotation. The whole Kinetic Link principle is missed.

According to Yeager, the hips must be moving infront of the upper body before stopping so that momentum transfer can occur.

If the large segments are not pushed in front and all of the segments rotate at the same time then little momentum transfer has occurred. The hitter must avoid simultaneous rotation of body parts. Englishbey appears to totally miss this point.

The idea that body parts reach a maximum velocity and then decelerate in order to pass their momentum to the following segment appears to be a difficult concept for Englishbey to grasp.

I did like the "maintain the box concept". I think Jim Booth says it better, and correct me if I'm wrong, but the idea is to maintain the angle in the lead-arm as long as possible (until one turns the corner). Now if you take this concept and add Lau's/Peavy's concept of lead-arm extention, then you can really hit the ball hard with a "connected" swing. I did find it interesting that in Englishbey's demonstrations that he used early top-hand release.

Overall, the swing that he demonstrated didn't match up well with the MLB swing. My biggest issue with it would be the lack of upper body torque.

Absolutely incredible and points to exactly the shilling I referred to above. If you were an honest broker of this information instead of being a shill with an agenda, a simple review of Steve's public comments on this board tell a whole different story. That's apparently the story you don't really want told Chris/Megs or who ever you are these days.

John , the problem that I have consistently seen in terms of "operationalizing" scapula loading is that it tends to be overdone ,ie creating too much retraction ,too much magnitude of movement , such that it creates ,in effect ,the same problems that counter-rotation creates.

Problems in other words that tend to create swing plane misalignment----which then negatively effects barrel accuracy and swing quickness.

Scapula loading/unloading -----understood correctly ---can be seen as functioning in a number of ways :

1] To create stability;
2] To help create directional force ,ie helping to get the barrel very quickly into the momentum path of the shoulders;
3] As something that "energizes " the swing by a rapid eccentic to concentric action of the scapular complex:
4]As a way to facilitate greater "separation" or subtle segmental differentials between the hips and shoulders [And I do emphasize here the SUBTLE nature of this separation of segments in terms of firing patterns.And that the separation involved in elite loading /unloading patterns is essentially one continuous "twisting and untwisting "or loading /unloading that starts with the "moving out/defying gravity " [better known as the stride ] that elite hitters create with the very effective control of the pelvic region ---that very few non-elite hitters create.In other words , "good separation" as created by elite hitters is always a function of very good pelvic control of the movement [loading] ---in conjuction with good scapula action .

It has been my experience with many hitters ,that in thinking of the scapula action as being synonymous with the "bench press analogy" ,they have a tendency to move the back shoulder in ways that create swing plane /posture problems.

I have ---for the most part ,with most hitters ,increasingly attempted to focus on 1 and 2 above [stability and direction] in terms of scapula action.As opposed to trying to emphasize magnitude of loading or movement---or as opposed to trying to emphasize magnitude of the "stretch-shortening "[eccentric to concentric action] process.

Almost always in terms of what I try to teach /convey ,I first try to focus on eliminating some of the common inefficiencies that I see regularly in most hitters.

Creating stability/control and finding ways to better direct the momentum path of the barrel are first and foremost in the context of scapula action.

This is not to say that subtle forms of loading the shoulders cannot be "built into " 1 and 2 above. Subtle forms of loading do indeed need to be built into scapula action. And I do teach and demonstrate some of these subtle ways to create this .

I am not saying here that you are inherently wrong in your "bench press analogy ".

But I am saying that my practical experience with most people's interpretation of "scapula loading " is that it tends to be overdone if you will.

And taken out of the context of the entire load -unload process interms of the efficient movement of the ENTIRE body.

In other words your analogy is NOT problematic for those really understand how to load and unload the body in a highly efficient manner.[My experience either with players are coaches is that there are very few in this catagory.]

Hope this explains a little where Dave was coming from with regards to his "bow string " analogy.

steve

Chris, you have purposely set out to misrepresent Englishbey.. It's dishonest and it's a disgrace.

Stealth

10-20-2007, 10:42 PM

Ok.......,,,

My point being it makes no sense arguing with the same people over and over when they clearly see things differently. If you don't think there is lateral tilt in the MLB swing then there is no need to continue. This thread is useless......

About the only thing good here was this quote by Hiddengem;

What I did like was making sure my separation was done on time and under control. You run into trouble at my level when you are rushing to get the process done

4for4

10-20-2007, 10:47 PM

My point being it makes no sense arguing with the same people over and over when they clearly see things differently. If you don't think there is lateral tilt in the MLB swing then there is no need to continue.

Ok.

This thread is useless......

Well, with what this fiveframe guy is doing, I'm tending to agree with you.

About the only thing good here was this quote by Hiddengem;

Agreed. But Booth, JJA, Fpdad and Ray made good points as well.

Stealth

10-20-2007, 10:49 PM

4for4 - when and where was the following written by Steve?

Originally Posted by Steve Englishbey
John , the problem that I have consistently seen in terms of "operationalizing" scapula loading is that it tends to be overdone ,ie creating too much retraction ,too much magnitude of movement , such that it creates ,in effect ,the same problems that counter-rotation creates.

Problems in other words that tend to create swing plane misalignment----which then negatively effects barrel accuracy and swing quickness.

Scapula loading/unloading -----understood correctly ---can be seen as functioning in a number of ways :

1] To create stability;
2] To help create directional force ,ie helping to get the barrel very quickly into the momentum path of the shoulders;
3] As something that "energizes " the swing by a rapid eccentic to concentric action of the scapular complex:
4]As a way to facilitate greater "separation" or subtle segmental differentials between the hips and shoulders [And I do emphasize here the SUBTLE nature of this separation of segments in terms of firing patterns.And that the separation involved in elite loading /unloading patterns is essentially one continuous "twisting and untwisting "or loading /unloading that starts with the "moving out/defying gravity " [better known as the stride ] that elite hitters create with the very effective control of the pelvic region ---that very few non-elite hitters create.In other words , "good separation" as created by elite hitters is always a function of very good pelvic control of the movement [loading] ---in conjuction with good scapula action .

It has been my experience with many hitters ,that in thinking of the scapula action as being synonymous with the "bench press analogy" ,they have a tendency to move the back shoulder in ways that create swing plane /posture problems.

I have ---for the most part ,with most hitters ,increasingly attempted to focus on 1 and 2 above [stability and direction] in terms of scapula action.As opposed to trying to emphasize magnitude of loading or movement---or as opposed to trying to emphasize magnitude of the "stretch-shortening "[eccentric to concentric action] process.

Almost always in terms of what I try to teach /convey ,I first try to focus on eliminating some of the common inefficiencies that I see regularly in most hitters.

Creating stability/control and finding ways to better direct the momentum path of the barrel are first and foremost in the context of scapula action.

This is not to say that subtle forms of loading the shoulders cannot be "built into " 1 and 2 above. Subtle forms of loading do indeed need to be built into scapula action. And I do teach and demonstrate some of these subtle ways to create this .

I am not saying here that you are inherently wrong in your "bench press analogy ".

But I am saying that my practical experience with most people's interpretation of "scapula loading " is that it tends to be overdone if you will.

And taken out of the context of the entire load -unload process interms of the efficient movement of the ENTIRE body.

In other words your analogy is NOT problematic for those really understand how to load and unload the body in a highly efficient manner.[My experience either with players are coaches is that there are very few in this catagory.]

Hope this explains a little where Dave was coming from with regards to his "bow string " analogy.

steve

4for4

10-20-2007, 11:10 PM

Stealth -- click the link in my quoted text (little arrow). It was March 06.

4for4 - when and where was the following written by Steve?

Stealth

10-20-2007, 11:17 PM

Now I see that little aarow - thanks.

fpdad

10-20-2007, 11:35 PM

Tim/4for4:
I think this quote from further down in that thread is interesting; good reading.

kijosh
Registered User Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 6

scapula

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"From a real-world perspective is virtually impossible to "practice" effective separation. Because high-level players exhibit no more than 1 to 1/2 frames (30 frames per second or less than.05 seconds) of separation between hips opening (initiating rotation) and shoulders following (rotating).

Swinging is a ballistic activity. It occurs rapidly and without a lot of thought. Attempting to "think" separation is in my opinion a prescription for disaster.

Other than initiating rotation using the pelvic I'm not sure what one can do to optimize separation other than attempts to increase swing quickness and bat speed through a trial and error process.

Also if there is an attempt to create separation there is a significant possibility that one loses the effect of "stretch reflex". Stretch reflex is a very important physiological property of the muscles that creates stiffness in the connection between body segments, in this case between hips and upper torso.

Attempting to create too much separation has a significant possibility of interfering with this stretch reflex process and in doing so actually decreases the amount of momentum transfer between lower and upper body."

FiveFrameSwing

10-21-2007, 12:02 AM

I've already been down the lateral tilt road. It's flawed. It doesn't work and it doesn't do what you think it does. You've confused Slaught, now your confusing Epstein type stuff with what is high level. I appreciate you giving it a shot, but it looks like your understanding is still pretty far off, but keep looking at the video, it's all there if you want to see it.

I agree that the video is truthful. Why you drew the red line the way you did is odd. If it is meant to line up the shoulders then you missed the mark.

I'm glad you've been down the "lateral tilt road". Please share your vast knowledge on the topic.

Seriously, if it is indeed flawed to laterally tilt, then I'd appreciate knowing.

Spare me the "read Dixon" and other hog wash. Give an explanation for why lateral tilt is flawed. I'm open to a good explanation that I can independently verify.

FiveFrameSwing

10-21-2007, 12:16 AM

"From a real-world perspective is virtually impossible to "practice" effective separation. Because high-level players exhibit no more than 1 to 1/2 frames (30 frames per second or less than.05 seconds) of separation between hips opening (initiating rotation) and shoulders following (rotating).
"

According to Yeager separation is a key element to power in the MLB swing.

While it is possible that Yeager is wrong, he is able to point to a large number of hitters that achieve separation.

Other than you, the majority of instructors producing strong hitters teach "hips before shoulders/hands".

The argument of a short period of time is interesting, but it doesn't prove a thing. A human is certainly capable of practicing and reproducing a sequence even if a portion of the sequence is short in duration.

Swinging is a ballistic activity. It occurs rapidly and without a lot of thought. Attempting to "think" separation is in my opinion a prescription for disaster.

This is why it is important to practice. Teaching separation isn't all that difficult. Epstein does it successfully as do many others. Despite the short duration for this portion of the sequence it is very possible to teach someone to obtain separation, and be able to repeat it without having to focus on it.

fpdad

10-21-2007, 12:22 AM

Did you read what was in that quote and what I wrote in my other posts?

Pro

10-21-2007, 12:22 AM

From Zig:

"The forward swing is then initiated at the ground with the application of force to the back foot. As force is applied to the back foot, it creates a linear shift of weight, at the same time, their is a release of rotational energy around (rotating) from the front foot up to the hip of the front leg (the heal of which has dropped during the linear/rotational shift, to provide a solid front side to hit against). At this point there is an X-factor stretch of approximately 12 degrees (x-factor stretch is an increase in the degree of separation between the hips and shoulders). Epstein, is slightly wrong on X-factor, too much can be a bad thing. Especially if you do not have the abdominal recovery strength to go with the flexibilty it takes to create a large x-factor. But x-factor is an important part of the swing."

ZIG Sounds a lot like Yeager (force is applied to the back foot, it creates a linear shift of weight) & (from the front foot up to the hip of the front leg (the heal of which has dropped during the linear/rotational shift, to provide a solid front side to hit against)..ground up....

and nothing like pcr--------science confirming common sense....

pcr is NOT mlb....

FiveFrameSwing

10-21-2007, 12:26 AM

FiveFrameSwing

10-21-2007, 12:32 AM

Did you read what was in that quote and what I wrote in my other posts?

Sorry fpdad. I know those quotes weren't from you. I believe the post came out that way because I responded to some material in your post, which included the content of another poster.

My bad!

4for4

10-21-2007, 12:48 AM

I agree that the video is truthful. Why you drew the red line the way you did is odd. If it is meant to line up the shoulders then you missed the mark.

I'm glad you've been down the "lateral tilt road". Please share your vast knowledge on the topic.

Seriously, if it is indeed flawed to laterally tilt, then I'd appreciate knowing.

I already have. It's in the video that you can't see. Use the search button.

Spare me the "read Dixon" and other hog wash. Give an explanation for why lateral tilt is flawed. I'm open to a good explanation that I can independently verify.

I don't say read Dixon and if I did, I certainly wouldn't tell you. You've shown no ability to understand what's being discussed in this thread or any thread. The only thing that I would tell you to read is your horoscope because I don't see you being here to honestly learn anything. You have an agenda.

4for4

10-21-2007, 12:50 AM

4for4

10-21-2007, 12:54 AM

FiveFrameSwing

10-21-2007, 12:56 AM

You have an agenda.

You are absolutely correct. I do have an agenda. I'm a student of the game and I wish to increase my knowledge.

You and I see something different in that video.

I've shown the video to others, and they don't see the shoulders lined up with the red line either. That's their independent conclusion. But perhaps they too have been reading too much information on Yeager and Epstein.

Let me share a pet peeve of mine.

Occasionally I’ll come across a coach barking at a player because he believes that they are dropping their back shoulder. The reality of course is that they are instinctively going through the process of lateral tilt. In an attempt to please the coach the kid will struggle to avoid the lateral tilt. The result is that the kid can no longer achieve separation. With the loss of upper body torque he losses power. What was a decent swing becomes a not-so-good swing, all because of the basic ignorance of “lateral tilt” and “upper body torque” on the behalf of the coach. Equally as sad, the coach truly wishes to help, but becomes discouraged when the kid is no longer hitting the ball as hard.

So do the world a favor. If you have data suggesting that achieving upper body torque is bad, then share that information. Sure, there will always be some that won't listen to facts, but the chances are good that if your information can be independently verified that you'll end up helping many people out. Jim does that. Why can't you?

FiveFrameSwing

10-21-2007, 01:01 AM

A perfect example of your agenda. Quit trying foist this nonsense on this community.

You consider Yeager's description of the MLB swing to be nonsense???

You may be correct. Please tell me which portions of his work are nonsense.

I'm guessing you don't like his conclusion that achieving separation is a key source of power in the MLB swing. However, I frequently see the hips leading the shoulders.

Take a look at the attached videos. I see the hips leading the shoulders. Do you?

SeanMadden9

10-21-2007, 03:11 AM

said this perfectly......I did not make my comments to rip or discredit anybody on here...especially jbooth!

I like how pasionate jbooth is and i bet he is a good instructor! I will say I watched jbooths demonstration video on how the lower body works and it was actually exactly what my old coach had taught me. For me it doesnt work because i pull my front hip too far "up and out" which causes some obvious flaws in my swing. But for some this may work. This pcr thing works for me....at last keeping that posture through the swing and using more core because it keeps me through contat rather than lifting "up and out"....i hope that made some sense....anyways...all i wanted to tell you guys was that for me personally it really has helped nd hopefully i can keep working it until my swing is where i need it to be!

SeanMadden9

10-21-2007, 03:52 AM

RayR

10-21-2007, 04:19 AM

These obviously aren't my students, but you can quickly verify that the majority of MLB hitters create upper body torque.

http://imageevent.com/siggy/hitting/

My students perform a drill very similar to Epstein's Numbers drill. I don't permit them to advance further until they can demonstrate to me that they can move from a 1: Ready position; to 2: an upper body torque position; and then swing from there. After demonstrating that they can get to their body into a proper upper body torque position, I then have them hit from the ready position and verify that their swing passes through an upper body torque position (which is equivalent to Epstein's 1-3 drill). I have my students perform this at every instruction, and verify to me that they hit with the creation of upper body torque.

You might not like Epstein's backwards upper body lean or the weight emphasis on the thigh of the back leg, but I'm convinced that his emphasis on upper body torque is correct.

It is also my opinion that MLB players are forced to hit in such a highly efficient manner because of the intense competition. It makes sense to me that we learn what they are doing and teach that.

Thanks for the link, but I have a ton of ML clips. I was hoping you could post a clip of one of your students. I am mostly interested to see how quickly youth/HS hitters get to contact via this separation training.

It doesn't matter what level of play the student is at. A quick swing is a quick swing.

StraightGrain11

10-21-2007, 04:19 AM

Take a look at the attached videos. I see the hips leading the shoulders. Do you?

I openly (no preconceived ideas) asked Steve a similar question to this on his website, I will now put my perspective of it on here.

You see the "hips leading the shoulders" - separation. I see it (separation), too. :)

BUT, think about this now. Do the shoulders begin to rotate before, at, or [well] after heel plant (footplant)? Do you consider hip rotation to begin before the heel is planted or after? Following Yeager's arguments - from what you have stated (that is what I'm going by here) - it (rotation) must occur AFTER footplant, as the hips need a "bracing point" [to "rotate around"].
So does hip rotation occur before or with shoulder rotation (basically, the initial question)? Are you mistaking [what your eyes see as] "leading hips" (early rotation) for the hips simply "moving" into footplant - as no actual rotation of them could have occured yet? A better way to put that (last statement) might be: is the initial hip movement more a result of the hips rotating, or the leg (femur) turning over in the hip socket [as the heel plants] (this might be observed best in the Derek Lee and Pujols clips)? :think: Just throwing some ideas out there....

RayR

10-21-2007, 06:11 AM

I personally believe that Yeager's description of the MLB swing is one of the most accurate there is. He believes that there are two primary sources of power in the MLB swing, one of which is "separation", which is why I'm interested in learning why one particular hitting camp feels that separation isn't important and shouldn't be taught. Facts supporting that stance are certainly welcome.

This is for others reading through this thread:

Separation is important, but does not need to be taught. Get in a good posture and learn to turn the hips first. The shoulders will be right behind tightly linked, but separated. It's more about sequence then separation.

It not as complicated as some would lead you to believe.

POSTURE, POSTURE, POSTURE!

Then work on getting the barrel to the ball in the quickest manner possible. That means not leaving the hands/arms behind as the shoulders turn. CONNECTION!

So for those posts that say PCR teaches spin swings or no separation I say the understanding of posture is tremendously underappreciated.

jbooth

10-21-2007, 09:05 AM

Get in a good posture and learn to turn the hips first. The shoulders will be right behind tightly linked, but separated. It's more about sequence then separation.

What do you think we all mean? "Separation" by my definition IS "sequence" as you described it above. It's the separation of the movement, in time, of the hips and shoulders. What do you THINK I meant?

I agree, and have said it MANY times. You turn the hips first, which stretches the side muscle, which then connects the shoulders and the hips, and they turn simultaneously, until the shoulders catch up and get realigned. THAT is separation. What I, and I think most here disagree with; is the notion that the side muscles contract early and the hips and shoulders are aligned and turn simultaneously, with no separation in the sequence of movement.

You're right, that it isn't that complicated. You turn the hips, the hands follow with the shoulders that move in a separate sequence, but connected to the hips, and the bathead is directed at the ball, last.

Then work on getting the barrel to the ball in the quickest manner possible. That means not leaving the hands/arms behind as the shoulders turn. CONNECTION!

That's right. Or IOW, fire the hands after the shoulders start to turn.

jbooth

10-21-2007, 09:25 AM

another thing is this....you guys use wy too many words and for someone trying to learn hitting....it is ridiculous to try and understand..i just read 5 pages in about half hour and literaly did not gain any knowledge.....what are the pros and cons of PCR....what are the flaws you guys see when you say yo dont like it...imean i think what i got was that you guys say pcr is the shoulders, and hand rotating with the hips....rather than getting seperation....? is that what you guys said the problem is? if so...cant you just let the hips go first, then let the uperbody rotation come through?

Sean,

It's a matter of understanding what you need to do and then figure out how to do it, in a manner that works for you.

You must turn the hips. Now, some people think of pushing off the back foot, some think of driving the back knee down, some think of driving the top of the back hip around, some think of turning around the front hip, some think of turning on the front foot, some think of turning the belly-button at the pitcher, PCR says turn the middle.

They're all just phrases to key in on what needs to happen. You have to turn the torso while the head and spine stay centered. If the PCR cue and the help you got from Chesspirate finally got you to do it well, then that's fantastic.

I have absolutely no disagreement with PCR theory, in that you must rotate the torso while centered. All the "words" you see us use and the debate is over how to teach it, and mostly over how the body accomplishes the move.

You're right, we argue the details too much.

And, to use some Yogi Berra theory;

you said using the old cue made you turn the hip up and out. Well, Yogi would have simply told you, "Stop turning them up and out.":laugh

Seriously, all the cues are just a mental thought process to help you do the move in the best manner. I use lots of cues with my students, including those used by PCR, and others. I know what the correct movement looks like and what it is for, and why it must be done a certain way, so I describe it many ways and with many cues, until the student finally gets it. Then I ask the student what he felt when he did it right, and have him create his own cue, or thought to get him to repeat it.

What, Why, and How. The "how" is the hardest part, and that's where all the different cues come from. Different coaches can be in total agreement on the what and why, yet have different cues and/or drills for teaching you how to do it. Your old coach probably agrees with PCR on what needs to be done, but his method of teaching you how, wasn't getting it across to you.

Where problems arise is when two coaches have different theories on the what and why. Then you have a real mess on your hands.

BTW, "What, Why, and How" is a phrase I invented and mentioned to Englishbey in a phone conversation once, and now he uses it a lot. I'm not sure he uses it with the same meaning that I apply to it though.

My theory is HHH, or Hips, Handle, Head. That is WHAT you need do. WHY? Because it is what all pros do, and is the most effective method. There is a lot of detail to learn HOW to do it. Drills, cues, etc., are all about teaching you HOW.

FiveFrameSwing

10-21-2007, 09:31 AM

because it keeps me through contat rather than lifting "up and out"....

The lifting "up and out" was an issue with one kid I worked with. The problem was quickly remedied when I introduced Lau's/Peavy's concept of lead-arm extension.

FiveFrameSwing

10-21-2007, 09:36 AM

I am mostly interested to see how quickly youth/HS hitters get to contact via this separation training.

Those that have worked with me for a month or more meet my objective of 5 frames - that would be 5 frames from the intial forward hand motion (I include that frame as frame #1) to the frame in which contact occurs.

FiveFrameSwing

10-21-2007, 09:47 AM

I openly (no preconceived ideas) asked Steve a similar question to this on his website, I will now put my perspective of it on here.

You see the "hips leading the shoulders" - separation. I see it (separation), too. :)

BUT, think about this now. Do the shoulders begin to rotate before, at, or [well] after heel plant (footplant)? Do you consider hip rotation to begin before the heel is planted or after? Following Yeager's arguments - from what you have stated (that is what I'm going by here) - it (rotation) must occur AFTER footplant, as the hips need a "bracing point" [to "rotate around"].
So does hip rotation occur before or with shoulder rotation (basically, the initial question)? Are you mistaking [what your eyes see as] "leading hips" (early rotation) for the hips simply "moving" into footplant - as no actual rotation of them could have occured yet? A better way to put that (last statement) might be: is the initial hip movement more a result of the hips rotating, or the leg (femur) turning over in the hip socket [as the heel plants] (this might be observed best in the Derek Lee and Pujols clips)? :think: Just throwing some ideas out there....

To be clear, this is a topic I've been trying to better understand. I have data on both sides of the issue. Video analysis suggests that there are some players that begin rotation prior to heel-plant. Don Slaught is on record as saying that hip rotation begins somewhere between toe-touch and heel-plant (inclusive, meaning hip rotation can begin as early as toe-touch or as late as heel-plant). I have collected video that verifies this claim.

Yeager breaks down the front leg into two primary functions.

The first primary function of the lead leg is to stop the body’s forward momentum with a flexed front knee. (Front Leg Block)

With the front knee flexed and the foot firmly planted the body’s center of pressure is located almost solely on the front foot, while the body’s weight, or center of gravity, is located behind the front foot. This strong block stabilizes the head and transfers this linear momentum into rotational momentum in the hips. In addition this strong block increases the stretch reflex by positioning the hips in front of the upper body, enhancing the rubber band effect.

After blocking with a flexed knee the second and final primary function of the lead leg is to push against the ground. The lead leg now holds the body’s center of pressure and must continue to apply force against the ground by pushing backwards. This continues to stabilize the body, it accelerates the hips and adds additional force into the swing.

FiveFrameSwing

10-21-2007, 10:01 AM

What I, and I think most here disagree with; is the notion that the side muscles contract early and the hips and shoulders are aligned and turn simultaneously, with no separation in the sequence of movement.

Very well stated. That in a nutshell is the issue as I see it.

I've seen SE demonstrate connected hip/shoulder rotation without separation. I'm not able to verify that elite MLB hitters swing this way.

I personally don't have time to reinvent the wheel. My approach is to "verify" what other knowledgeable instructors are teaching and use that information where applicable.

In this particular case we have a national-level instructor (Epstein) that begins by teaching his students to hit from an upper body torque position. The video analysis I’ve done confirms that elite MLB hitters hit from such a position. The other instructor demonstrates swings without upper body torque. I’m not able to verify that MLB hitters hit in this manner. Given that I can verify one approach, and not the other, I believe the correct thing for me to do is teach that which can be verified. At the same time, I feel that it is important to remain a student of the game and be open to data that could point me in a different direction. So if data is available that suggests that upper body torque is the wrong way to go, then I’m open to hearing it.

RayR

10-21-2007, 10:46 AM

What do you think we all mean? "Separation" by my definition IS "sequence" as you described it above. It's the separation of the movement, in time, of the hips and shoulders. What do you THINK I meant?

I agree, and have said it MANY times. You turn the hips first, which stretches the side muscle, which then connects the shoulders and the hips, and they turn simultaneously, until the shoulders catch up and get realigned. THAT is separation. What I, and I think most here disagree with; is the notion that the side muscles contract early and the hips and shoulders are aligned and turn simultaneously, with no separation in the sequence of movement.

I am not saying they are turning simultaneously. I will repeat that separation is a no teach assuming that the hitter is in a good posture and the shoulders do not turn first. It doesn't sound like everyone posting in this thread understand the significance of this.

That's right. Or IOW, fire the hands after the shoulders start to turn.

I don't agree you fire the hands after the shoulders turn. That to me sounds like you advocate a loss of connection right away. I used that type of swing during my slow pitch days. Worked well in that environment.

Any notion that the hands fire is not I want to happen. I want my hitters to think of locking in the front arm and turning the upper body as a unit for the first few frames. I want them to only think about getting the barrel to whip around to contact. Firing the hands after the shoulders start turning slows the barrel down in terms of frame quickness. Too much out and around or pushing into contact.

You'd have to agree that asking a player to fire the hands after the shoulders start turning is not the road to the quickest swing. That is what I am after.

jbooth

10-21-2007, 11:04 AM

I am not saying they are turning simultaneously. I will repeat that separation is a no teach assuming that the hitter is in a good posture and the shoulders do not turn first.

It's been my experience that it is very much a teach. Students seem to naturally start to turn the hips and shoulders at the same time, or are very lazy with the hips. You have to vigorously teach to start the hips first and get them going well ahead of the shoulders.

I don't agree you fire the hands after the shoulders turn. That to me [sounds like you advocate a loss of connection right away. I used that type of swing during my slow pitch days. Worked well in that environment.

I don't think you understand what I meant by fire the hands.

Any notion that the hands fire is not I want to happen. I want my hitters to think of locking in the front arm and turning the upper body as a unit for the first few frames.

That's what I've said many times.

Firing the hands after the shoulders start turning slows the barrel down in terms of frame quickness.

No it doesn't.

Too much out and around or pushing into contact.

What made you correlate "fire the hands" with "out and around, or pushing?" I don't advocate pushing, or going out and around.

You'd have to agree that asking a player to fire the hands after the shoulders start turning is not the road to the quickest swing.

No, I don't agree.

tom.guerry

10-21-2007, 11:18 AM

notice that the main contribution of the PCR posse is ad hominem attacks and distraction rather than engagaing in the hitting related topics.

It would help if they got their story straight.

And looked at video in the context of actually taking some hacks.

JJA:

I'll repeat that swing quickness as nothing to do with separation

kjosh ref:

Also if there is an attempt to create separation there is a significant possibility that one loses the effect of "stretch reflex". Stretch reflex is a very important physiological property of the muscles that creates stiffness in the connection between body segments, in this case between hips and upper torso.

ray r

Separation is important, but does not need to be taught. Get in a good posture and learn to turn the hips first. The shoulders will be right behind tightly linked, but separated. It's more about sequence then separation.

-----------

In the mlb swing, you do not need a lot of separation. you need to control the creation of a well timed and directed "cusp".

PCR forces drag becasue it is not capable of adequate cusp creation.

You have to create stretch by rubberbandwinding, then cusp by drop and tilt.

These require shoulder functions like lateral tilt that are not included in the PCR blueprint.

This requires well synched weight shift, shift to front foot as shoulders tilt/resist.

This requires rotation controlled by synch of two ends of the body with upper body in control.

Turning the shoulders interrupts cusp formation amd makes you unable to resist/keep hands back.

This means loss of quick acceleration, inability to start acceleration deep. These factors lessen read time and force early committment.

The PCR blueprint does not explain how early batspeed is created to enable longer read time and later/better adjustment.

It won't work in mlb.

PCR is a totally different pattern that mandates drag which is compensated by accelerating a spinning type rotation.

Great for tee work. Not for mlb.

FiveFrameSwing

10-21-2007, 11:39 AM

Any notion that the hands fire is not I want to happen.

Consider this if you will.

Should the student think of trying to hit the ball 'hard' or to think in terms of hitting the ball with a 'fast' bat.

What is the difference you might ask?

Consider that you are attempting to hit an object that will only be in contact with the bat for 1/2000th of a second. That time period is too short for a message to be sent from the point of bat/ball contact, up your arm, down your leg, to the foot which is in contact with the ground, and return back for the purpose of muscling the ball. The ball will be long gone by the time the message returns to give sufficient feedback and muscle through the ball.

The objective shouldn't be to muscle the ball when swinging, but to instead hit the ball with a 'fast' bat.

Think fast hands. Or as Peavy says, think 'fast' and 'flat' hands. Keep in mind that there is an optimal sequence though.

The hands absolutely need to 'fire'. The objective is to hit with fast hands, and not muscle through the ball.

Just a thought. Give it test run and form your own opinion.

FiveFrameSwing

10-21-2007, 11:47 AM

you need to control the creation of a well timed and directed "cusp".

Could you please point me to a link that would describe the concept of "cusp"? I suspect I understand what you mean, but I'd like clarification.

RayR

10-21-2007, 12:03 PM

It's been my experience that it is very much a teach. Students seem to naturally start to turn the hips and shoulders at the same time, or are very lazy with the hips. You have to vigorously teach to start the hips first and get them going well ahead of the shoulders.

I don't think you understand what I meant by fire the hands.

That's what I've said many times.

No it doesn't.

What made you correlate "fire the hands" with "out and around, or pushing?" I don't advocate pushing, or going out and around.

No, I don't agree.

Jim, I didn't want this to turn into the push/block/push vs move the middle debate, BUT... Learn to move from the middle in a good posture and good separation will be created.

And what else could I assume from fire the hands after the shoulders start rotating?

And if the hands are not moving at the same time as the shoulders, how is there not a loss of connection.

RayR

10-21-2007, 12:06 PM

tom.guerry

10-21-2007, 12:11 PM

5 frame -

the cusp idea assumes that you want to somehow take advantage of momentum transfer to fire the bat because as a physical principle, momentum transfer and the related change in motion of segments is near instantaneous rather than purely dependent on much slower muscular force development. You want to whip the bat (which requires well directed "leverage" becasue momentum is related to velocity which is a vector), not muscle it.

The main power source for firng the bat head is the reversal of torso coil/separation.

What you need to do to make acceleration as fast as possible is finish coiling/loading the torso muscles with a last quick stretch. This stretch uses soft tissue elastic properties and enhanced stretch receptor reflexes to reverse/uncoil/unload the bathead quickly/efficiently by momentum transfer/whipping, supported by slower muscular force production as opposed to relying only on muscling the bat.

Torso separation between shoulders and hips in golf is called/measured as "x-factor".

The golf related company that Zig used to work for showed that a more direct measure that separated highly skilled golfers from the less skilled was the ability to create a last quick bit of coil as opposed to the absolute degree of separation. They called this "x-factor stretch" which maxed out well into the down swing (the fact that expert golfers are actually increasing torso stretch/load well into the downswing is what "maintains the hinge" in golf, the same thing you want to do in hitting, but you need to understand that what is maintaining the hinge is NOT stiff wrists/holding the angle at the wrists, but using the whole body, lower synched to upper, to create the late stretch and fire of the torso).

http://www.advancedmotionmeasurement.com/html/XFactorStretch1.htm

intro

http://www.advancedmotionmeasurement.com/html/XFactorStretch3.htm

see graph

http://www.advancedmotionmeasurement.com/html/XFactorStretch6.htm

slightly more detailed explanation

http://www.advancedmotionmeasurement.com/html/XFactorStretch7.htm

conclusion.

This was research done in the nineties and published in 2000.

Zig has studied mlb and summarized the data on degree of separation and stretch and when shoulders "catch up" related to in vs out location and expected speed gains of each segment of whip (summation of velocity/kinetic linbk/chain) in batspeed posts in late 2002 and early 2003.

Nyman recognizes the same phenomenon which he called "cusp", a quick reversal of load to unload harnessing elastic tissue properties for quickness, but he does not understand how the body functions (especially the shoulderss/scaps) to do this.

see his recent summary response about shoulder unloading sequence:

http://www.setprotrainingforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=10

JJA

10-21-2007, 12:12 PM

You gotta love all of these armchair instructors proclaiming that PCR can't produce an MLB like swing. What exactly is an MLB swing and what isn't that people can make such definitive statements?

From a practical point of view, an MLB swing is one that will get looked at by an MLB scout and not get thrown out immediately. If you can pass that test, your swing is MLB like. As far as I know, we've had only one MLB scout around and that was DMac. He was very clear. You had to swing fast (80 mph+) and swing quickly (less than 149 milliseconds as he defined it). As you recall in one of his most prescient moments, he showed Drew Stubbs' swing (who was selected #7 in the MLB draft a couple of years ago by Cincinnati) and said point blank he would never draft him because he had a 5+ frame swing (> 165 milliseconds). By this definition, Drew Stubbs did not have an MLB like swing, and for those of you who have followed his career, he has struggled hitting in the minors despite his obvious athleticism, cannon arm, and being able to run like a deer.

So if Steve/Nyman can produce swings with those measurable parameters, they will get looked at by MLB scouts. That's the bottom line, not if Tom or Pro or anybody else objects because they got taught by Steve or Nyman. Now of course DMac like all of us had his personal preferences so if he saw dead hands as he liked to call them he was very wary despite other measurables. So those two parameters aren't sufficent to get the nod from an MLB scout, but they certainly are necessary or you got tossed out right off the bat. The fact that Steve does have guys in that range as does Stock tells you that the methods themselves aren't inherently flawed, that they can produce swings that will get past the first, most critical barrier as determined by MLB scouts. If indeed the PCR methods consistently produced swings with 5+ frames of quickness, then the critics would be right because 5+ frames isn't MLB like. However, with proof to the contrary the assertions about PCR being non-MLB like is a transparent attempt to discredit Steve and Nyman because of personal grudges.

As for this tired old refrain about separation and swing quickness, it's not that hard. If you want to have the longest time to look at the pitch, it isn't from separation. You want to make your swing as quick as you can so you have more time to decide what pitch is coming. The best thing anyone can do is to reduce their frame count. Go from 4.5 to 4 frames and you've picked up 16 milliseconds, a huge difference in the MLB world. Sure, getting a little separation to increase swing speed certainly helps a little, but for the vast majority of kids there are much better and easier ways of reducing frame time.

-JJA

tom.guerry

10-21-2007, 12:23 PM

JJA -

you've got the Posse talking points down, but they are losing their magic effect.

What's worse, an "armchair instructor", or one who's out there teaching lots of kids PCR but not understanding that the mlb hitter's they are emulating do not hit that way ?

Another popular Posse position was that the poor people sucked in by Epstein were putting a "ceiling on their kids development" and this was OK if you just wanted them to play in high school.

You may want to rethink that and get clearer about exactly what your destination is in teaching.

As your old guru Nyman said. If you don't know your destination, any road will get you there.

RayR

10-21-2007, 12:23 PM

Consider this if you will.

Should the student think of trying to hit the ball 'hard' or to think in terms of hitting the ball with a 'fast' bat.

What is the difference you might ask?

Consider that you are attempting to hit an object that will only be in contact with the bat for 1/2000th of a second. That time period is too short for a message to be sent from the point of bat/ball contact, up your arm, down your leg, to the foot which is in contact with the ground, and return back for the purpose of muscling the ball. The ball will be long gone by the time the message returns to give sufficient feedback and muscle through the ball.

The objective shouldn't be to muscle the ball when swinging, but to instead hit the ball with a 'fast' bat.

Think fast hands. Or as Peavy says, think 'fast' and 'flat' hands. Keep in mind that there is an optimal sequence though.

The hands absolutely need to 'fire'. The objective is to hit with fast hands, and not muscle through the ball.

Just a thought. Give it test run and form your own opinion.

When did I say hit the ball hard? Who said to muscle the ball?

Did you try rotating from the deadlift position, yet?

FiveFrameSwing

10-21-2007, 12:30 PM

Separation is important, but does not need to be taught. Get in a good posture and learn to turn the hips first. The shoulders will be right behind tightly linked, but separated. It's more about sequence then separation.

Here's the rub. Separation is indeed important and is one of the primary sources of power in the elite MLB swing. Often I'll be given a student that doesn't achieve separation.

So what do you do when you have a student that doesn't exhibit separation?

I appreciate you stating that you "get in a good posture and learn to turn the hips first". That's a good objective. But if the student isn't doing this, then something needs to be taught.

One problem I see is with students that have too narrow a stance. These students find it incredibly difficult to rotate their hips ahead of their shoulders. If you see that this is one of the contributing issues to their lack of achieving separation, then you teach them how to correct it.

Another issue is that they've been taught not allow their back shoulder to have any drop in it. This eliminates their ability to laterally tilt, and along with that they loose their ability to rotate their hips ahead of their shoulders. Once again, you recognize the error and you teach the correction.

Then there are those students that have the notion of bending over and simply turning as a unit without achieving separation. Yes, believe it or not, but this is sometimes taught.

Since we agree that separation is important, it seems wise to teach a method to achieve separation to students that don't have separation in their swing.

JJA

10-21-2007, 12:49 PM

Tom,

As usual, you don't have a shred of evidence to contradict a single item I've articulated, just personal attacks. Let's try this. Will you admit that Steve/Nyman have produced swings with 80+ mph swing speeds and less than 4.5 frames of delay? A simple yes or no would satisfy me quite nicely.

-JJA

FiveFrameSwing

10-21-2007, 01:01 PM

From a practical point of view, an MLB swing is one that will get looked at by an MLB scout and not get thrown out immediately.

According to Yeager, when he reviews candidates for their potential to make it in MLB, his primary focus is on what he considers to be the two common characteristics of all great hitters.

1. All push efficiently against the ground
2. They all get good separation of body segments

He has a very nice checklist of items that he goes over, but the above are his two main focal points in terms of judging their potential.

RayR

10-21-2007, 01:10 PM

Deleted post

Jake Patterson

10-21-2007, 01:27 PM

Another popular Posse position was that the poor people sucked in by Epstein were putting a "ceiling on their kids development" and this was OK if you just wanted them to play in high school.
Why do we always discuss youth training like it's a static event or an all or nothing process (ceiling). Development is just that development. I say use something that is fundmentally sound and build from there. Youth coaches are responsible for teaching fundementals and getting their players ready for the next level.

FiveFrameSwing

10-21-2007, 01:50 PM

Why do we always discuss youth training like it's a static event or an all or nothing process (ceiling). Development is just that development. I say use something that is fundmentally sound and build from there. Youth coaches are responsible for teaching fundementals and getting their players ready for the next level.

Well said!

SeanMadden9

10-21-2007, 01:59 PM

What's worse, an "armchair instructor", or one who's out there teaching lots of kids PCR but not understanding that the mlb hitter's they are emulating do not hit that way ?

tom if these are all just hitting CUES, how do you know what cues the pros use? how many pros have you spoken with about hitting? again, i'm not here to attack anyone, just curious...

JJA

10-21-2007, 02:29 PM

Fiveframe ,

Yeager is hardly an objective onlooker. He sells baseball instructional material. Of course what he sells is what he advocates or else he wouldn't be a very good salesman. DMac was objective. He was a pro scout who put bread on the table based on his ability to bring in talent that would produce in the organization. He wouldn't have lasted as long as he did without being extremely good at what he did. That's why I put so much credence in his views, and actually it's pretty obvious that a quick, powerful swing is desired by everyone. DMac helped me understand how to quantify that quick, powerful swing.

But it's clear based on your misrepresentation that you have an Epstein/Yeager agenda and that's fine. I hope it works for your students, I really do. Show us a few before/after clips of how you've melded all this disparate stuff together successfully (as measured by an 80+ mph swing speed and less than 4.5 frames of delay) and we'll all applaud you for it.

Good luck - JJA

FiveFrameSwing

10-21-2007, 04:25 PM

Yeager is hardly an objective onlooker. He sells baseball instructional material.

Seems to me that Yeager has a vested interest in being technically correct with respect to his description of the MLB swing. He has documented his material, has a PhD in Human Performance, and serves as the Hitting Mechanics Analsyst for the San Diego Padres. What I like about his work is that much of it is easy to verify.

That said, I'd be interested in hearing what you believe Yeager is wrong on.

But it's clear based on your misrepresentation that you have an Epstein/Yeager agenda and that's fine.
Good luck - JJA

I have a lot of respect for the work of Yeager, Epstein, Slaught, Lau Jr., Peavy, Englishbey, and others. However, before using any portion of their work I require that I first obtain confirmation that the particular mechanic is a part of the MLB swing. I do not find MLB hitters rotating with their hips & shoulders as a unit without first obtaining separation. Therefore I've chosen to ignore that portion of Englishbey's teachings. That isn't to say that he doesn't have other valid points. Nor does it imply that I disrespect his work. I just chose not to use that portion of his work and instead supplement it with what I believe better describes what I see in the MLB swing.

There is no "agenda" other than in teaching what best represents the MLB swing.

Stealth

10-21-2007, 05:57 PM

Sure, getting a little separation to increase swing speed certainly helps a little, but for the vast majority of kids there are much better and easier ways of reducing frame time.

It helps only a little? Are you really looking at the same MLB clips as everyone else. Separation is huge and everyone knows it. The non PCR crowd has tried to explain how separation is achieved. Wether you agree with it or not it has been explained. How does PCR teach separation? That is the issue right?

If all I am worried about is swing quickness with NO separation how the heck am I supposed to hit anything that is not right down the middle or inside? If you do not have separation with forward momentum is it possible to drive the ball the opposite way? Keep on spinning..........

JJA

10-21-2007, 07:44 PM

OK,

We've been over and over and over this subject, but we'll try once again. The concept of separation is well-known from the golf literature dating back to the early '90's. The so-called X-factor of the noted golf instructor Jim McLean refers to the amount of angle between the shoulders and the hips. The X-factor stretch is a related concept that relates the change in that angle during the start of the swing.

McLean pointed out that there was a strong correlation between the amount of X-factor angle and the distance a player averaged on their drive. Guys who turned their shoulders a lot relative to their hips (i.e., they have more X-factor) tended to have longer drives than guys who didn't. Subsequent analysis found that correlation not as strong as McLean originally supposed, which has led to other analyses such as X-factor stretch, and other similar concepts.

So no question, it's a big deal in golf. Also, there is no question it's a big deal in pitching as well. Someone posted a recent photo of Linecum with a huge X-factor which is part of the reason a small man can throw so hard. No question about it.

The application to hitting isn't as straightforward. What's the difference? Time. You can take as long as you want in golf and in pitching to stretch the muscles to a maximum. You can have a long golf swing or a long pitching motion and there is no penalty in the game for that (save perhaps accuracy in golf). In hitting there is no such luxury. For example, the famous overhead video of Rose shows that he has little X-factor, thus a singles hitter so goes the argument. OK, let's do an Epstein and counterrotate his shoulders backwards 30 degrees or so relative to his hips. Keep the hips fixed. This increases the X-factor, and should lead to more power. And of course it does lead to more power.

However, it is now a LONGER swing, precisely 30 degrees longer than his normal swing. It will take him longer to get the bat to the ball because he has more distance to travel. He has now sacrificed some bat quickness to achieve bat speed. He's got that separation everyone apparently is so in love with, but he has sacrificed quickness to do so. When thought of in those terms, the trade becomes a little tougher. It's not so obvious that a longer, more powerful swing is better than a shorter, quicker one. Again, certainly in golf and pitching, the benefits to shorter and quicker are a lot less than those involved in hitting. And certainly in slow pitch softball, a huge X-factor is highly desirable and probably practiced by some of those behomeths that hit a regulation softball out of sight (I don't have any tape of those guys. I'm just guessing here.) But when facing a 95 mph+ fastball, a shorter, slightly less powerful swing might not be a bad thing to have.

The only rationale place to add separation is having the hips lead the hands, by getting the X-factor stretch added rather than the pure X-factor. This should in principle allow one to get some additional stretch without making the swing longer. But there is no way that this additional stretch compares remotely with that in pitching or golf. No one can argue that ANYONE has their hips leading the hands like Linecum does with this pitching. The differences in angles aren't remotely close.

So does hips leading the hands help power? Sure, I think so, it has to. Is it as dramatic as golf or pitching? No way. The angle isn't nearly as big enough to be as dominant as it is in those other activities. That's why I view it as something advanced, something to be added at the end when you have proven you can hit the good fastball. Pete Rose would have been a great candidate to add a little hips leading the hands to get a bit more pop. But would that have turned Rose into Frank Robinson? No way.

Again, if people are having success out there with teaching separation, more power to you. If you think it is a magic bullet, feel free to use it. But lots of us have thought about it carefully, haven't dismissed it cavalierly, but aren't convinced that it is something we have to teach at the beginning.

-JJA

Stealth

10-21-2007, 08:52 PM

JJA - that was a long post with no answer to the question. Typical PCR - How the heck do the power guys hit the long ball? If you think they dont have separation you are dead wrong.

The application to hitting isn't as straightforward

Baseball goes back what 100+ years - why isn't it straight forward? You cannot simply just rotate into the ball - tell us how PCR teaches separation. Please!

Tell me why it's slower?

Stealth

10-21-2007, 09:11 PM

But lots of us have thought about it carefully, haven't dismissed it cavalierly, but aren't convinced that it is something we have to teach at the beginning.

Have you ever had a golf lesson? The first thing they do with 6 year olds is compare them to Tiger Woods. Why would you not teach separation from the beginning? It makes no sense.

JJA

10-21-2007, 09:28 PM

Stealth,

Power = bat speed, pure and simple. Generate more bat speed and you'll get more power. But as I tried to point out, you don't want to sacrifice quickness for bat speed, in my opinion. The reason it isn't straightforward is that in golf or pitching I would tell you to get as much separation as possible. If you think that's the right thing to tell a hitter, to get as much separation as possible, well, more power to you. The vast majority of the kids I deal with need to be able to hit a garden variety fastball, and I achieve that by getting them more quickness. That's my emphasis. If you're having more success teaching a more powerful swing first, congratulations. There are lots of different ways to get to the finish line.

This isn't a PCR issue by the way. Whether one believes that separation is a big deal or not isn't a PCR issue. Like I said previously, Lau doesn't teach separation until later in a players's development after they have mastered other material he believes is more important. If you want to know how Lau teaches separation, go ahead and pay him $300 per hour and he'll let you know. (He's got his own set of drills that accomplish this.)

I just saw your last post. Yes, I'm actually a scratch golfer when I play. Yes, I do teach my kids to hit it as long as possible with as much separation as they can do. But golf ain't baseball. I've repeatedly tried to emphasize the difference but if the arguments that you've got a lot more time in golf than you do batting don't resonate with you, then I don't know what else to say. There are lots of different ways to get to the finish line. I just don't see separation as something that needs to be done early. In my opinion, it's not nearly as important in hitting as it is in golf or pitching.

-JJA

Stealth

10-21-2007, 09:49 PM

In my opinion, it's not nearly as important in hitting as it is in golf or pitching.

JJA - what are you going to do teach a kid how to get separation after years of pulling the ball and not being able to hit oppo? It makes no sense to not teach it from the beginning. You need to give kids more credit than you are - they can learn it if you teach it!

FiveFrameSwing

10-21-2007, 09:59 PM

However, it is now a LONGER swing, precisely 30 degrees longer than his normal swing. It will take him longer to get the bat to the ball because he has more distance to travel. He has now sacrificed some bat quickness to achieve bat speed. He's got that separation everyone apparently is so in love with, but he has sacrificed quickness to do so.

If this is your basis for not teaching separation then take a moment to consider that your logic may be flawed.

The hands will still initiate their path forward from roughly the same spot, but they will do so with more stretch helping bring them forward quicker. What you may be missing is that the creation of torque occurs earlier in the sequence, prior to the hands committing to swing the bat. Check out the videos for verification. The torquing procedure is prior to the committment of the hands and the hands initiate their forward path from roughly the same point.

swingbuilder

10-21-2007, 10:02 PM

JJA....that was me that posted Drew Stubbs swing clips. Stubbs was a high 1st round pick because he has "tools". A team decided to take a chance on his tools. He is a 75 runner on a 80 scale with a 60 arm and a 65 defender with 60 power with his weakest tool being his hittability which is maybe a 40-45. He is as athletic as anyone in the draft that year or any draft for that matter. If he figures out the bat and can be consistent he will be an All Star if not then he will be a 2nd divison starter for a team and still have a pretty good career. Pro baseball takes chances on high end tools especially if the tools are on such an athletic player with such a specimen of a body.

The secret is that the Reds think Stubbs has the "aptitude" to learn how to be a better hitter. They took a chance. Taking chances is what makes impact players in the big leagues. He was a 5+ frame to contact hitter in college, but can you name one, just one, one, thats right, one hitter from U of Texas that was an impact bat in the big leagues? Did he get any coaching in college? or did he just get a ton of BP without any comments? Sometimes the best coaching is no coaching. Let a youngman just play and have some success to help his team. Just give him reps. Just let him play. When you coach them they more times than not go backwards and then the team never gets to benefit from the pure athlete. Stubbs was trust into the starting lineup as soon as he stepped on campus. He will not have the same time table for the Reds. They will make adjustments and let him fail so that he may succeed higher up the ladder.

The bottom line is that the Hands and the Hips drive the swing. Not the shoulders and not hold the hinge to unhinge nor the scap load nor the CHP or the "between the hand torque" or even fly off the merry go round. If you get the hands in the right position and you use them correctly and you get the hips right and in the right position then all the other stuff will align and conform without any thought. Thats what hitting is. Its the use of very limited thought and even less thought as to how to swing the bat. Its the ability to have timing, pure timing. So any thought about tilt, perpendicular and turn like crap, is just that, crap. Get your hands in the right position to begin with and then use the hands the correct way. Get the hips in the right position and use them the correct way. Then work on the timing.

Big league hitters concentrate and think only two things. The hands and their timing. They work the hands in their minds. They work the hands in their drills. They work the hands in their BP. They learn to control the bat with the hands. They make the bat do what it does with the hands. They adjust by using the hands. Their timing is closly connected to the hands.

Be loose. Have a loose swing. Would you say Hunter Pence has PCR? What he has is a knack for centering the ball. MLB scouts will notice any hitter who can consistently center balls everyday they pick up a bat. They center balls on the Tee, in the cage, live on the field and during the game.

JJA

10-21-2007, 10:27 PM

Thanks FiveFrame for the advice. Believe it or not, some of us have thought through this very carefully and are very comfortable with what we teach and the results we get. As I have tried to emphasize, even a guy like Lau who has taught guys at the highest levels agrees that separation isn't something that needs to be taught at the beginning. Still, I'll pass your sentiments onto Charley that he needs to reconsider his teaching based on your observations.

Swingbuilder,

I'm afraid I'm with DMac on this one. To pay a guy who needs to cut a frame of delay out of his swing a multi-million dollar signing bonus is not a good business decision, my opinion. To pick someone 7th in the first round who will end up being a defensive replacement can hardly be what the Reds thought they were getting. Hopefully they have someone who can teach hitting. He needs it.

Nice clips by the way. It was really nice of you to post them before. If you have any updated Stubbs clips, I would really love to see what progress the Reds coaches are making, if any.

-JJA

swingbuilder

10-21-2007, 10:42 PM

I didnt say I wasn't with Dmac when it comes to Stubbs. What I explained was why the Reds agreed otherwise. Sometimes you have to just take a premium athlete and hope it clicks at some point. I have seen sure fire can't miss 1st rounders, Miss. I have also seen late round picks become all stars. There is more to the equation. Things like Makeup and Game Awareness and Skills. Players do succeed and play along time based on Makeup and game awareness with just avg skills.

You can say what if on a ton of 1st rounders who never made it for any number of reasons. 30 someones have to be picked in the 1st round. Heck Shawn Abner was the 1st pick. You don't know until you put them out there and see what they can do.

jbooth

10-21-2007, 11:10 PM

But as I tried to point out, you don't want to sacrifice quickness for bat speed, in my opinion.

-JJA

I don't know why you think starting the hips early and letting them pull the bat around, makes the swing slower.

It's simply timing. You start turning the hips while you are reading the pitch, and if the decision is "swing" you finish the turn and get a full stretch in the side muscles, which puts unbelievable acceleration into the bathead, not only getting it to the ball in time, but it knocks the heck out of it.

You say it is a trade off between power and quickness. It isn't. You get both. Turning without a separating stretch may be quicker for somebody who has a problem with timing, but it is a trade off that definitely sacrifices power for quickness.

I have put myself in the highest speed cage at my local cages, and I've tried just being quick. (Just turn) and I get to the ball on time, but I don't hit it very hard. When I concentrate on getting the hips well ahead, (and I manage to do it), it always is a surprise to me how quickly the bat gets around. Just before contact, I think "I'm going to be late" and then "whoosh" the bathead flies around from the good torque that was generated, and I surprise myself that I got around in time, and I get the bonus of hitting it HARD.

Quite often, when I get into a good rythm of accelerating the bat from good torque (hip/shoulder separation), I have to wait longer on the pitch because the bat gets around quicker than I'm used to, and I'm early. Then on the next pitch, I wait and if I mess up and don't get the hips going, I'm late because the bat doesn't accelerate as fast without the hips pulling the bat.

How is it that the majority of MLB hitters get the bat around on 98mph pitches, and do it with a lot of separation? How did Robinson and Williams get around in time and hit for high average and power, with lots of separation?

Encinitas

10-21-2007, 11:17 PM

I have been looking at a few of the mess around--hit in the backyard-- with golf whiffle clips I have and I see some 5-6 frame stuff, assuming we are talking footplant as the key indicator. Maybe I'm being generous and they are 6 frames.

The thing is I have never bothered to count them until now. Not once. Instead I see things that need to be fixed such as premature external rotation of the back arm. Not winding the rubberband. Getting the hands stacked, and holding that until they feel the front leg beginning to open and get the hands flat quickly.

Also Dmac was instrumental in privately aiding me when I started trying Tip and Rip. To this day I don't recall him one time, telling my the frames were off. Instead he was more excited to see the barrel up in the air. In once instance we did tee swings with a bat and stick, and with the bat he had a little bat drag, with the stick, we really didn't. Dmac's explanation was who cares it's a strength issue. Swing with stick, no drag, with bat a little drag. Nobody was counting frames.

swingbuilder

10-21-2007, 11:31 PM

I don't know why you think starting the hips early and letting them pull the bat around, makes the swing slower

sure it does. Good hitters don't pull the bat around.

How is it that the majority of MLB hitters get the bat around on 98mph pitches, and do it with a lot of separation

couple reasons, but one is they use their hands.:D

jbooth

10-21-2007, 11:49 PM

sure it does. Good hitters don't pull the bat around.

I was referring to "pull" in a general sense, and the word "them" refers to the hips. The hips pull the bat around.

couple reasons, but one is they use their hands.:D

I assume you mean that they use the hands moving along with the arms that are connected to the torso. And that they do something with their hands somewhere in their movement along the path on which they are moving due to hip rotation.

How exactly do they "use their hands?"

swingbuilder

10-22-2007, 12:13 AM

I knew what "them" was. The hips do not pull the bat around. The hips can only "DRAG" the bat around.

Jim, its the ability to use both ends of the spectrum. Spectrum meaning the important aspects of the parts to "swing" the bat and not "drag" the bat. Those ends would be the Hands and the Hips. The arms wouldn't be one of the ends of the spectrum.

also

Quite often, when I get into a good rythm of accelerating the bat from good torque (hip/shoulder separation), I have to wait longer on the pitch because the bat gets around quicker than I'm used to, and I'm early. Then on the next pitch, I wait and if I mess up and don't get the hips going, I'm late because the bat doesn't accelerate as fast without the hips pulling the bat.

Seperation alone does not produce bat speed. It will however produce very good bat drag.

It also would be impossible to hold the hips and turn them to achieve any chance at timing. Thats why you would be early and then be late.

Jim, I dont care to debate with you. You have your belief and your teaching ways. I merely see it different. To use the hips as the timing mechanism is as difficult as can be. I do though respect your passion.

jbooth

10-22-2007, 12:29 AM

I knew what "them" was. The hips do not pull the bat around. The hips can only "DRAG" the bat around.

Jim, its the ability to use both ends of the spectrum. Spectrum meaning the important aspects of the parts to "swing" the bat and not "drag" the bat. Those ends would be the Hands and the Hips. The arms wouldn't be one of the ends of the spectrum.

also

Seperation alone does not produce bat speed. It will however produce very good bat drag.

It also would be impossible to hold the hips and turn them to achieve any chance at timing. Thats why you would be early and then be late.

Jim, I dont care to debate with you. You have your belief and your teaching ways. I merely see it different. To use the hips as the timing mechanism is as difficult as can be. I do though respect your passion.

I don't care to debate with you either, since I can't make any sense out of what you're saying. I don't know what point to debate. You might as well have said that the ears generate power in the swing.

swingbuilder

10-22-2007, 07:11 AM

What I'm saying is that the swing in hitting a moving baseball that is pitched is Driven by the Hands and the Hips. To focus on anything other than those 2 ends of the spectrum would take away from being as quick and reduce bat speed while trying to hit a pitched baseball.

To merely say the hips lead the swing would be incorrect and to also say or refer to the hips being the mechanism for timing would be a most difficult thing to achieve. You even said so yourself when you mentioned you were both early and late.

The Hands and the forearms lead the swing. The hands and the ability to have them active happens way before the hips do anything. The ability to correctly position and POSTURE the Hands and to maintain that posture leads far more to the ability to have timing in the swing than do the hips. To allow the Hips to dictate the hands would lead to a pretty "inconsistent" swing for any number of reasons but mainly it would affect timing. That is of course you are facing a pitcher who throws every pitch the same velocity inning after inning after inning.

You along with most other science infected swing doctors discredit the hands and point blam at the hands where the blam should be on the arms and shoulders. There is far more value in the hands than just hang on to the bat and turn the hips and let it "pull" the bat around. The hands and the brain link quicker and have much more adjustability than locking in the arms and turning the hips and then turning the shoulders.

What I'm saying is to ditract the hands in the swing and or to displace how important they are is a coaching mistake.

JackB1

10-22-2007, 07:49 AM

Big league hitters concentrate and think only two things. The hands and their timing. They work the hands in their minds. They work the hands in their drills. They work the hands in their BP. They learn to control the bat with the hands. They make the bat do what it does with the hands. They adjust by using the hands. Their timing is closly connected to the hands.

That is because they have perfected everything else. Fine tuning is done with the hands. Try taking a kid who is learning and tell him to just think about his hands and see what results you get. I will go out on a limb and predict not good.

UGDodgersSS#13

10-22-2007, 07:57 AM

You along with most other science infected swing doctors discredit the hands and point blam at the hands where the blam should be on the arms and shoulders.

What I'm saying is to ditract the hands in the swing and or to displace how important they are is a coaching mistake.

swingbuilder,

EVERY component of the swing is important!-from feet to hands.

What starts the swing (and we are talking about the physical aspect only)?

1. Ted Williams said it is the cocking of the hips...rotating them slightly away from the pitcher to get the swing started. Followed by
2. the movement of the front foot (lift or up/down or step) and the handle torque (slight up and back of the hands or scap load or rotating the front shoulder away from the pitcher) as the front foot touches down. This creates the twist of the upper and lower parts of the body (torque).

The rest of the swing has been clearly and brilliantly been described by jbooth and others...hips open, torso rotates carrying the shoulders and hands (connection)

What the hands do next is based on your school of thought.....i.e. lead arm/hand pulls the handle to a high finish (Lau), wrist rolls AFTER contact (Williams)

No prominent teacher/coach that I have read about or seen on DVD advocated any wrist action (rolling or snapping) with the exception of Yeager.

After reading and re-reading the posts of jbooth I believe that he has explained his teachings clearly.
His methods and terminology are based on his efforts to convey this information in a form that the student can understand. Many have talked about the cues that they use.

I do not recall jbooth ever saying that the hands are unimportant.
Its just that he tries to simplify teaching by focusing on the cues that will make all this "theory" practical for the student.

Jim W.

10-22-2007, 09:50 AM

:debate: :debate: :debate: :debate: :debate:

Where were we.... oh yes .... Congratulations Sean!!!

UGDodgersSS#13

10-22-2007, 12:36 PM

That's right. Or IOW, fire the hands after the shoulders start to turn.

Jim,

Can you please elaborate on the firing of the hands?

Thanks

hiddengem

10-23-2007, 09:26 AM

I knew what "them" was. The hips do not pull the bat around. The hips can only "DRAG" the bat around.

Jim, its the ability to use both ends of the spectrum. Spectrum meaning the important aspects of the parts to "swing" the bat and not "drag" the bat. Those ends would be the Hands and the Hips. The arms wouldn't be one of the ends of the spectrum.

also

Seperation alone does not produce bat speed. It will however produce very good bat drag.

It also would be impossible to hold the hips and turn them to achieve any chance at timing. Thats why you would be early and then be late.

Jim, I dont care to debate with you. You have your belief and your teaching ways. I merely see it different. To use the hips as the timing mechanism is as difficult as can be. I do though respect your passion.

Having been sucessful at a very high level and having to deal with 98mph heaters and 85mph sliders, there just comes a point where you "have to do,what you have to do" to hit the ball. The hands are the quickest part of the swing and they come in very handy in many situations. Slow hands=slow bat.