A Linear batting lesson - I think

[Drill]

Instructor just came out of double A ball and is assistant coach at local college.

He was saying to take hands to the ball (i stuttered) which keeps your bat in the hitting zone longer than should I dare say rotational swing. I asked him about keeping the angle but he was more concerned with keeping angle with rear elbow and than extending to the ball which kind of looked like an arm bar to me. I ask when is an arm bar an arm bar, he said that it when you extend both elbow out and hit the outside of the ball.

I was about ready to say thanks, but saw my son exploding into the ball hitting nice line drives and finishing balanced.

To me this lesson had overtone of linear hitting and he even said that rotational swing will cause you to open up your front shoulder and not stay in the hitting zone as long. I was flummoxed, what did i just witness?



drill


Is this call a hybrid swing

[scorekeeper]

I was flummoxed, what did i just witness?


You just witnessed proof that there is more than one way to skin a cat, or in this case hit a baseball! ;)

[SeanMadden9]

been there...done that.....hit the line drives....looked good off tee.....i was pushing to stay on line the same way....in bp i could hit line drives anywhere but when it came to a game, i could not hit.....that is because it is a long slow swing that will not consistantly hit anything above 85....trust me...i have been through that garbage....the line drives seem so great at 1st....

[Go Cardinals]

been there...done that.....hit the line drives....looked good off tee.....i was pushing to stay on line the same way....in bp i could hit line drives anywhere but when it came to a game, i could not hit.....that is because it is a long slow swing that will not consistantly hit anything above 85....trust me...i have been through that garbage....the line drives seem so great at 1st....

Amen to that, I've been through it too. Practice its off or over the center feild wall, game its 0-3 with 3 k's.

*I was referring to arm barring*

[jima]

If it works in practice, there's a good chance it will work in a game. Try it and see...the previous posters have no idea what he is actually doing because they haven't seen it. Maybe it is arm barring, maybe its not. I've seen plenty of so-called pure rotational hitters fail in H.S. also. For most, its an individual art.

[Chris O'Leary]

Is this call a hybrid swing

No, it's linear advice.

First, there is no way to swing hard and keep the bat in the plane of the pitch longer. They are mutually exclusive. The ultimate example of keeping the bat in the plane of the ball is the bunt. But it's not a very powerful swing.

Second, there's nothing wrong with opening up the front shoulder. You have to in order to swing with your entire body and not just your arms. Watch how Pete Rose's front shoulder opens up in this clip.

http://photos.imageevent.com/siggy/hitting/pro/Rose.gif

Notice the circular hand path.

http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Hitting/Images/CircularHandPath_PeteRose_001.JPG

Last I checked, Pete Rose was a decent hitter.

Third, it could be that he wasn't actually doing what his instructor thought he was doing. Did you see the swing with high speed video? Sometimes people say they are doing one thing but actually do something else.

[CoachW]

Pete Rose was a decent hitter :)

[jima]

Chris, I see what your saying in the vid you posted. That is as pure a rotational swing as I can imagine. It looks like everything moves at the same time and speed. But in the vid, I don't see the separation. Where is the "X" factor? Rose was about 5'9' inches and around 190lbs, HRs? I believe that most good swings are hybrids mentally and sometimes physically.

[Chris O'Leary]

Chris, I see what your saying in the vid you posted. That is as pure a rotational swing as I can imagine. It looks like everything moves at the same time and speed. But in the vid, I don't see the separation. Where is the "X" factor? Rose was about 5'9' inches and around 190lbs, HRs? I believe that most good swings are hybrids mentally and sometimes physically.

You don't see the separation because it isn't there.

As others have said, Pete Rose was a prototypical line drive hitter. This is due in large part to the era in which he played. He played in the era of big parks and slick, Astroturf surfaces, so he likely played the percentages and adopted a strategy that was adapted to to the times.

Look at his HRs (160) compared to his 2Bs and 3Bs (746+135).

- http://www.baseball-reference.com/r/rosepe01.shtml

[jima]

Chris, let me put it this way. Rose clearly has his whole body swinging the bat, as you recommend....but with forearms like Popeye, he had relatively few HRs...if you were to analyze his swing, why would guess would be the cause of his his lack of HR power? jima

[jima]

Chris, OK, so if you want to hit line drives, rotate all at once without separation? I think there is something else going on here...I don't know what it is, but it's curious. I'm not sure I buy the astro turf theory when it comes to Rose...I mean do you think there was a concious effort on his part to slow his swing down and hit texas leaguers?. Or do you think he was getting all of the rotational power he could? I believe that if he felt that he could hit the same amount of HRs as Stargell, he would have. Based on the vid, I don't think his mechanics allowed him to. Whatever, I just think its interesting.

[Chris O'Leary]

I'm not sure I buy the astro turf theory when it comes to Rose

I grew up watching my Cards play in an Astroturf canyon. Whitey Herzog built his teams are the fields of the day. I don't see why guys wouldn't build their swings around the fields of the day.


...I mean do you think there was a concious effort on his part to slow his swing down and hit texas leaguers?

Maybe. If it worked, then great.

One thing that sticks with me about Jose Oquendo is how he lived off of blooping the ball over the head of the SS. It wasn't sexy, but it worked.

I wouldn't be surprised if Rose consciously decided to do what it took to just get on base (e.g. he picked up on some of the same OBP principles as the Moneyball guys). Notice how his HR numbers peaked in the first half of his career.

For the same reason, some pitchers (e.g. Greg Maddux and Sandy Koufax) traded off MPH for control.

[jbooth]

Chris, let me put it this way. Rose clearly has his whole body swinging the bat, as you recommend....but with forearms like Popeye, he had relatively few HRs...if you were to analyze his swing, why would guess would be the cause of his his lack of HR power? jima

Because he didn't try to hit HR's. He has said that he swung at 90% of his possible power, AND he doesn't lead with the hips. It is next to impossible to consistently hit the ball deep without the hips being the primary force, or engine that powers body rotation.

Ted Williams even went farther in the description. Even leading with the hips isn't good enough unless you cock them back first and then fire them. Firing them first is better than hip/shoulder rotation in unison, but still not as good as quickly loading and unloading them, and having them lead the shoulders.

[jima]

JB...I thought that almost all good hitters swing at 90%. But really, that isn't the point. I thought that Chris was using Rose's swing as a poster child for rotational mechanics.

[Chris O'Leary]

JB...I thought that almost all good hitters swing at 90%. But really, that isn't the point. I thought that Chris was using Rose's swing as a poster child for rotational mechanics.

Rose is certainly a poster child for connection and the circular hand path, which I think are key distinguishing factors of a rotational swing.

[FiveFrameSwing]

Based on the vid, I don't think his mechanics allowed him to.

I'm glad someone finally said it.

Everytime I see that video of Rose I think to myself, that won't work for homeruns. No upper body torque, and without that you're throwing away one of the biggest power sources.

Almost the direct opposite of what Lau/Peavy teach with their central focus on lead-arm extension.

[Drill]

What I was puzzled about was the front arm was almost in full extension. And he was teaching more keeping rear elbow level with shoulder(start position) and drive the bat to the strike zone keep the rear elbow in a L position close to your body and than extending after he hit the ball. below is the best way I can explain the exstention of front arm and rear elbow


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v709/Drill_U/baseballbonds.jpg


He also got my son to drive the rear knee forward better and he seemed to hit the ball more solid.(of course)



Ok years ago I use to tell "him hands to the ball" but as you all know this will produce a arm bar. Even with my bad swing cue back than he was one of the better hitters in the league. I am woundering now if he kept his rear elbow close to his body back than. If so I think I know why he is taking to this style of hitting so fast.

But with this technique hands to the ball and keeping the rear elbow in a L position there is no way he can arm bar and seems to hit it more constantly

But I am taking a walk on the dark side (grin) , I am going to continue because It looks to me he understand hands to the ball with rear elbow in a L position. He is also getting a better lower body drive.


I am scared, not really but I think you know what I mean, apprehensive is probably a better word


drill

[Go Cardinals]

I grew up watching my Cards play in an Astroturf canyon. Whitey Herzog built his teams are the fields of the day. I don't see why guys wouldn't build their swings around the fields of the day.




Maybe. If it worked, then great.

One thing that sticks with me about Jose Oquendo is how he lived off of blooping the ball over the head of the SS. It wasn't sexy, but it worked.

I wouldn't be surprised if Rose consciously decided to do what it took to just get on base (e.g. he picked up on some of the same OBP principles as the Moneyball guys). Notice how his HR numbers peaked in the first half of his career.

For the same reason, some pitchers (e.g. Greg Maddux and Sandy Koufax) traded off MPH for control.

This is how I think of Rose's lack of power. Imagine Ichiro... he could hit aton of homers if he tried... does he try? No, because he says its not what they pay him to do....

[StraightGrain11]

What I was puzzled about was the front arm was almost in full extension. And he was teaching more keeping rear elbow level with shoulder(start position) and drive the bat to the strike zone keep the rear elbow in a L position close to your body and than extending after he hit the ball. below is the best way I can explain the exstention of front arm and rear elbow


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v709/Drill_U/baseballbonds.jpg


He also got my son to drive the rear knee forward better and he seemed to hit the ball more solid.(of course)



Ok years ago I use to tell "him hands to the ball" but as you all know this will produce a arm bar. Even with my bad swing cue back than he was one of the better hitters in the league. I am woundering now if he kept his rear elbow close to his body back than. If so I think I know why he is taking to this style of hitting so fast.

But with this technique hands to the ball and keeping the rear elbow in a L position there is no way he can arm bar and seems to hit it more constantly

But I am taking a walk on the dark side (grin) , I am going to continue because It looks to me he understand hands to the ball with rear elbow in a L position. He is also getting a better lower body drive.


I am scared, not really but I think you know what I mean, apprehensive is probably a better word


drill

How does the "hands to the ball" cue create arm barring?

[FiveFrameSwing]

This is how I think of Rose's lack of power. Imagine Ichiro... he could hit aton of homers if he tried... does he try? No, because he says its not what they pay him to do....

What style of swing would you say that Ichiro is the poster child for?

[Chris O'Leary]

What style of swing would you say that Ichiro is the poster child for?

It depends.

Sometimes he swings in a very linear manner and other times he swings in a very rotational manner.

[Drill]

What style of swing would you say that Ichiro is the poster child for?


link goes to dicussion about Ichiro swing

http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=66036


Double pendulum swing crowd post 2 talks about Ischiro swing

vedio of Ichiro swing in post 5




drill

[Drill]

How does the "hands to the ball" cue create arm barring?

when both hands go out and around hitting the outside of the ball and not keeping the rear elbow in close to your body.


drill

[Chris O'Leary]

Double pendulum swing crowd

vedio of Ichiro swing in post 5

http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=66036


drill

I think this is an example of Ichiro's more linear, slappy swing.

http://a590.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/80/l_f2e9ed0cd4dcb8bf625729cad544bfa5.gif

Notice the Power V at the point of contact, the movement forward of his hips after his front foot plants, and his weight over his front leg at the point of contact.

[wogdoggy]

I think this is an example of Ichiro's more linear, slappy swing.

http://a590.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/80/l_f2e9ed0cd4dcb8bf625729cad544bfa5.gif

Notice the Power V at the point of contact, the movement forward of his hips after his front foot plants, and his weight over his front leg at the point of contact.

the power V..???? what happened to the connected box?

[JackB1]

Drill.....if it works for your kid, then I wouldn't get too hung up on anything else. It's like voting for a Republican or Democrat soley based on their party and not their individual qualifications. Certain verbal cues like "hands to the ball" will lead to different results in different kids. Maybe it just caused him to take a more direct route to the ball and not loop his swing? As long as he's getting the desired results, who cares if it "sounds" linear or rotational or whatever. If he keeps the rear elbow slotted correctly, "hands to the ball" will get him started correctly and then his body rotation should lead his hands on a correct circular hand path. The lead arm "extention" you think you see may actually be occurring right after contact. Only way to be sure would be to video tape it. You CAN hit the ball with a straight lead arm, it's just optimal to have a slight flex in it and extend after contact. But I have seen many MLB opposite field HR's where the lead arm looks to be extended AT contact.

[Chris O'Leary]

the power V..???? what happened to the connected box?

There's no box in a linear swing. Instead, the goal is the Power V at the point of contact.

Now, I'm not saying that makes sense for 99.99% of people, but that's what Ichiro does. However, I'm hard-pressed to think of any other ML hitters who swing this way. Maybe Vlad Guerrero when he's fooled (which is often).

I would also NEVER teach anyone to swing like this.

[wogdoggy]

There's no box in a linear swing. Instead, the goal is the Power V at the point of contact.

Now, I'm not saying that makes sense for 99.99% of people, but that's what Ichiro does. However, I'm hard-pressed to think of any other ML hitters who swing this way. Maybe Vlad Guerrero when he's fooled (which is often).

so if your in the power v at contact your linear if your in the box at contact your rotational? what is mqgwire?

[Drill]

Drill.....if it works for your kid, then I wouldn't get too hung up on anything else. It's like voting for a Republican or Democrat soley based on their party and not their individual qualifications. Certain verbal cues like "hands to the ball" will lead to different results in different kids. Maybe it just caused him to take a more direct route to the ball and not loop his swing? As long as he's getting the desired results, who cares if it "sounds" linear or rotational or whatever. If he keeps the rear elbow slotted correctly, "hands to the ball" will get him started correctly and then his body rotation should lead his hands on a correct circular hand path. The lead arm "extention" you think you see may actually be occurring right after contact. Only way to be sure would be to video tape it. You CAN hit the ball with a straight lead arm, it's just optimal to have a slight flex in it and extend after contact. But I have seen many MLB opposite field HR's where the lead arm looks to be extended AT contact.



Well said

thanks,

drill

[Chris O'Leary]

so if your in the power v at contact your linear if your in the box at contact your rotational? what is mqgwire?

It depends.

You have to look at general trends and patterns, not individual swings.

In general, most power hitters will tend to stay connected, especially when they hit the ball well.

However, when they get fooled by a pitch their swings will break down and will often look quite linear. For example, here is Pujols getting fooled and popping the ball up...

http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Hitting/Images/Hitters/AlbertPujols/AlbertPujols_2006_FlyOut_001.jpg

Also, what a good pitcher does is pitch in such a way that a hitter has to disconnect to hit the ball (e.g. via offspeed pitches and pitching low and away). A good pitcher can turn a rotational hitter into a linear hitter.

[wogdoggy]

It depends.

You have to look at general trends and patterns, not individual swings.

In general, most power hitters will tend to stay connected, especially when they hit the ball well.

However, when they get fooled by a pitch their swings will break down and will often look quite linear. For example, here is Pujols getting fooled and popping the ball up...

http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Hitting/Images/Hitters/AlbertPujols/AlbertPujols_2006_FlyOut_001.jpg

Also, what a good pitcher does is pitch in such a way that a hitter has to disconnect to hit the ball (e.g. via offspeed pitches and pitching low and away). A good pitcher can turn a rotational hitter into a linear hitter.


what else can you do but look at individual hitters? so anybody using their arms at the end of their swing is going linear?

how bout your impact point when hitting a golf ball isnt that a V versus a box? does that make all golfers linear?

[Drill]

It depends.

You have to look at general trends and patterns, not individual swings.

In general, most power hitters will tend to stay connected, especially when they hit the ball well.

However, when they get fooled by a pitch their swings will break down and will often look quite linear. For example, here is Pujols getting fooled and popping the ball up...

http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Hitting/Images/Hitters/AlbertPujols/AlbertPujols_2006_FlyOut_001.jpg

Also, what a good pitcher does is pitch in such a way that a hitter has to disconnect to hit the ball (e.g. via offspeed pitches and pitching low and away). A good pitcher can turn a rotational hitter into a linear hitter.


Is he being fooled or trying to protect low and out side of strike zone. This is part of the swings I question when looking at still pictures of the best. We don't know what the count is and from only one angle how can we really tell where the ball is. To really truly analyze swings


Just a thought


drill

[wogdoggy]

i'd rather see my hitters with the v extension versus the alligator arms ..

[Drill]

i'd rather see my hitters with the v extension versus the alligator arms ..

I think i understand what you are talking about(arms at point of contact?), If this is what you are talking about wants you have to have both, one for inside pitches and the other for outside pitches?


drill

[wogdoggy]

I think when you are the "V" you are using your whole body to hit the ball..ARMS INCLUDED,,when you arent hitting at the ultimate contact point or V you are not using your whole body to hit the ball harder..

i just dont agree with chris that the V hitters are linear..

[Chris O'Leary]

what else can you do but look at individual hitters? so anybody using their arms at the end of their swing is going linear?

The point is that not every one of a hitter's swings will be representative of most of his swings. Every once in a while he will get fooled.


how bout your impact point when hitting a golf ball isnt that a V versus a box? does that make all golfers linear?

A golf ball isn't moving. That's an important difference.

That's why, while some are, all the principles of golf aren't applicable to baseball.

[Chris O'Leary]

Is he being fooled or trying to protect low and out side of strike zone.

Valid point, but it doesn't matter.

Regardless of whether he was fooled or just protecting the plate, this is not an optimal swing.

[Chris O'Leary]

i'd rather see my hitters with the v extension versus the alligator arms ..

Every good hitter will have V extension. But they won't show V extension at the point of contact.

I don't know what alligator arms are.

[Chris O'Leary]

i just dont agree with chris that the V hitters are linear..

It depends where and when you see the V.

Linear hitters = V AT point of contact.
Rotational hitters = V AFTER the point of contact.

[StraightGrain11]

I think this is an example of Ichiro's more linear, slappy swing.

http://a590.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/80/l_f2e9ed0cd4dcb8bf625729cad544bfa5.gif

Notice the Power V at the point of contact, the movement forward of his hips after his front foot plants, and his weight over his front leg at the point of contact.

That looks more "hybrid" to me...alot of linear movement up to footplant, then almost purely rotational....

Also, can you pause that swing at contact? Looks like his weight is ON his front leg - but not OVER it - his body (weight) appears to be centered between his feet, just like it should be.

[StraightGrain11]

Is he being fooled or trying to protect low and out side of strike zone. This is part of the swings I question when looking at still pictures of the best. We don't know what the count is and from only one angle how can we really tell where the ball is. To really truly analyze swings


Just a thought


drill

He's been fooled - notice how his upperbody has moved infont of his rear leg (compared to the other swing - also on an outside pitch), more importantly, notice how far out in front of his body the point of contact is going to be; that balls not even IN the strike zone.

And Drill, I am still curious as to how the "hands to the ball" cue creates arm-barring?

[Drill]

And Drill, I am still curious as to how the "hands to the ball" cue creates arm-barring?

When you throw both hands at the ball you loss the angle with rear elbow(young childern take it to literally and end up arm barring with this swing cue). I saw this allot with younger players, you get pull hitters down the line and weak hitters to right field. There is no way a child that arm bars can hit a low and out side pitch. If they do it a very weak hit to right side or weak pop ups.

My son pitches very little and one year after only about 5 inning of pitching during the year, (he was a pretty good pitcher, but there was a lot of coaches ball going on before all-stars, hence did not pitch that much) but they did put him in to pitch in a District Regional game. He always heard me talk about low and outside pitches because arm barring is a big swing fault in about 60-70% of kids at this age. He ended up winning a couple of games because of the low and out side pitch and throwing sucker high pitches.

drill