Lau: lead-arm extension & bottom-hand dominate.

[FiveFrameSwing]

I have been reading Charlie Lau Jr’s book “Lau’s Laws on Hitting” and found it interesting that he places an emphasis on lead-arm extension and not allowing the top-hand to be dominate.


Charlie writes:
“Through countless hours of working with swings of all types, my biggest breakthroughs have come when teaching my students the value of getting lead-arm extension in the swing. What gets the message through ultimately is the evidence: How much further the ball carries when lead-arm extension is performed properly.”

“The scientific reasoning behind using lead-arm extension is that the length of a lever determines the amount of leverage you can achieve. In a baseball swing, your front arm is the longer lever, and therefore it will provide more leverage and power. And this is why I preach that you shouldn’t roll your wrists over prematurely because it keeps you from a flat swing that allows for extension.”

Charlie goes on to refer to lead-arm extension as “the most important aspect of hitting”. He refers to top-hand dominance as “the most poisonous teachings of old school philosophers.”

The reason he is an advocate of releasing the top hand just after contact is to prevent premature rolling of the bottom-hand wrist and to facilitate lead-arm extension.

Another point of emphasis with Charlie is that the top hand shouldn’t dominate during the swing.

Charlie writes:
“What you need to remember about the hands is this: The lead-hand creates bat speed while the back-hand can slow down bat speed if it begins to dominate during the swing.”

“You might be wondering if the top hand has any purpose at all during the swing. It does. The top hand’s primary function is to provide support for the bat through the swing, and that is an important function. You can steer a car with one hand on the wheel, but you’re still better off using two for better control of the steering wheel. The top hand in a baseball swing simply provides better control of the bat. But it should never take control of the swing. If it does, bat velocity will be inhibited.”


So my question is, do others here teach lead-arm extension and not allowing the top-hand to dominate in the swing?

[wogdoggy]

I have been reading Charlie Lau Jr’s book “Lau’s Laws on Hitting” and found it interesting that he places an emphasis on lead-arm extension and not allowing the top-hand to be dominate.


Charlie writes:
“Through countless hours of working with swings of all types, my biggest breakthroughs have come when teaching my students the value of getting lead-arm extension in the swing. What gets the message through ultimately is the evidence: How much further the ball carries when lead-arm extension is performed properly.”

“The scientific reasoning behind using lead-arm extension is that the length of a lever determines the amount of leverage you can achieve. In a baseball swing, your front arm is the longer lever, and therefore it will provide more leverage and power. And this is why I preach that you shouldn’t roll your wrists over prematurely because it keeps you from a flat swing that allows for extension.”

Charlie goes on to refer to lead-arm extension as “the most important aspect of hitting”. He refers to top-hand dominance as “the most poisonous teachings of old school philosophers.”

The reason he is an advocate of releasing the top hand just after contact is to prevent premature rolling of the bottom-hand wrist and to facilitate lead-arm extension.

Another point of emphasis with Charlie is that the top hand shouldn’t dominate during the swing.

Charlie writes:
“What you need to remember about the hands is this: The lead-hand creates bat speed while the back-hand can slow down bat speed if it begins to dominate during the swing.”

“You might be wondering if the top hand has any purpose at all during the swing. It does. The top hand’s primary function is to provide support for the bat through the swing, and that is an important function. You can steer a car with one hand on the wheel, but you’re still better off using two for better control of the steering wheel. The top hand in a baseball swing simply provides better control of the bat. But it should never take control of the swing. If it does, bat velocity will be inhibited.”


So my question is, do others here teach lead-arm extension and not allowing the top-hand to dominate in the swing?

no hand dominates,,both work together,,ever hit a ball real far and not even feel it come off the bat? both hands arms make that happen,,not one more than any other.

[jbooth]

Charlie writes:
“What you need to remember about the hands is this: The lead-hand creates bat speed while the back-hand can slow down bat speed if it begins to dominate during the swing.”

The lead "arm" creates batspeed because it connects the handle to the rotating front shoulder. This isn't much different from Yeager saying to keep the lead arm extended, or the PCR people saying stay "connected." The acceleration of the bat is felt in the lead arm/hand, because it is the connection through which, the bat is being pulled by the torso rotation. The arm is also used to pull the bat, but it is a pull after shoulder rotation starts and continues during rotation. I don't know what his exact meaning of "extension" is. I would like to know what that means.

“You might be wondering if the top hand has any purpose at all during the swing. It does. The top hand’s primary function is to provide support for the bat through the swing, and that is an important function. You can steer a car with one hand on the wheel, but you’re still better off using two for better control of the steering wheel. The top hand in a baseball swing simply provides better control of the bat. But it should never take control of the swing. If it does, bat velocity will be inhibited.”

I agree with this, except that the back arm is more involved than he thinks, but it doesn't feel like it, because the pulling force from the lead arm and torso rotation, is felt more. You definitely should not push the bat with the back arm, though.

So my question is, do others here teach lead-arm extension and not allowing the top-hand to dominate in the swing?

It depends on what action it actually is, that he describes as "extension", but I do believe that the front arm is very involved, but NOT as the first move like Gwynn teaches. The hips go, which then start the shoulders moving, which then move the bat while you keep the hands back (initially). Once the front shoulder starts out, and the hands move due to the shoulder movement, then you pull the knob with the lead arm/hand.

Basically my theory is; the hips start the swing, the shoulders get pulled by them, and then they try to "catch up" to the hips.

The shoulders move the knob initially, and then the arm/hands try to get the knob to "catch up" to the front shoulder.

It's like a race with a staggered start. The hands go last, but they are trying to reach the finish line at the same time as the hips, which started first. And, the bathead goes absolute last, but finishes (ball contact) just a little bit after the hips cross the finish line.

It's like a train starting to move when slack is in all the couplings. The engine (hips) move, and pull the slack out of the coupling to the next car (shoulders), then that car pulls on the next car (hands).

However, the arms are like a second engine on the train, and can provide some power to try to catch up with the hips. But, they must not fire until the hips get the shoulders going and the coupling from hips to hands has had all the slack removed.

If, by "lead arm extension", Lau means that you pull on the bat with the lead arm, I would agree, PROVIDED that, that pull doesn't happen until the hips get connected to the hands.

I also believe that you pull with the lead arm, with a bent elbow, and you pull to the "pull" side. You do NOT extend the elbow with the pull and pull the knob toward the pitcher. Straightening of the elbow before contact is only used to adjust to the pitch.

[FiveFrameSwing]

Jim, that was an excellent and very helpful post.

Thank you!

[tom.guerry]

JIm Booth said:


"The shoulders move the knob initially, and then the arm/hands try to get the knob to "catch up" to the front shoulder."

I would say the hands/forearms/arms move the knob to uncock the bat, then the hips start turning open as handle torque is applied which starts the body coiling as the shoulders and hands stay back.

With the "GO" move, the shoulders tilt to support increasing handle torque and the hips keep turning in response within the weight shift and leg positioning limits set by lower body/legs/hips synching with upper body during coiling.


Torso finishes stretching and fires between the two ends as a result of the GO. When the coil reverses, the shoulders are turned forward and momentum transfers quickly/efficiently to turn the bat quickly starting well behind the batter.

If the shoulders are turned actively, they will interrupt coil so that acceleration is less quick and more in front of batter.

[FiveFrameSwing]

With the "GO" move, the shoulders tilt to support increasing handle torque and the hips keep turning in response within the weight shift and leg positioning limits set by lower body/legs/hips synching with upper body during coiling.

.

Tom, is the "shoulders tilt" that you are referring to the same as the "lateral tilt" (when the rear shoulder tilts slightly back to the catcher immediately at/after heel-plant)?

My understanding of Epstein's teachings is that the "lateral tilt" has two primary benefits.

1: Lateral-tilt is the first move in putting the barrel of the bat roughly on plane with the ball. Epstein believes that the lead elbow is used to fine-tune putting the bat barrel on plane with the ball after this.

2: During the process of lateral-tilt shoulder rotation is frozen. This allows the hips to initiate rotation without the shoulders initiating rotation. It is this "lateral-tilt" that allows the hitter to reach the Torque position, which is what many believe to be one of the greatest sources of power generation in the swing.

[jbooth]

If the shoulders are turned actively, they will interrupt coil so that acceleration is less quick and more in front of batter.

Yeah, if you turn them before the hips and hands get connected. Or, IOW, before the stretch/coil is completed. The hips turn the shoulders when the stretch/coil is completed, then the obliques contract instinctively, to try and get the shoulders back in line with the hips.

If you have kept the hands back (lead arm extended) and have not started to move the handle toward the ball with the arms, the shoulders will move the handle, and THEN you can use your arms and hands to fire the bat into the ball. You can use the hands/arms to get the barrel moving (running start) in a flattening motion, while the hips get connected to the shoulder, but the hands don't go toward the ball until the shoulders rotate.

[tom.guerry]

five -


yes the "tilt" is same concept as "lateral tilt" that resists opening as the hips opening which allows handle torque to control the timing and direction of unloading.

it is primarily untilting of shoulders that have been tilted front shoulder down earlier and kept that way.

the untilting needs to be synched with weight shift/drop of front heel.

[Hard Liner]

I respectfully enter the conversation as somewhat of a noob on the subject. I've learned a lot about hitting in the last month or two but I've also learned a lot about how inadequate language is for conveying information.

So it sounds to me like Lau would think opposite side hitting - right handed throw, left handed bat - would be best to get the strong arm in front while rotational theory would lean towards same side hitting to get the stronger core side in front. Make any sense?

[AcidLake]

So it sounds to me like Lau would think opposite side hitting - right handed throw, left handed bat - would be best to get the strong arm in front while rotational theory would lean towards same side hitting to get the stronger core side in front. Make any sense?

Well, it's like this. When you pull that prank when you whip that wet towel to someone, what do you do, pull, or push? You pull because it will give better velocity with a painful sting. So it makes sense to me than the top-hand push.

Charlie goes on to refer to lead-arm extension as “the most important aspect of hitting”. He refers to top-hand dominance as “the most poisonous teachings of old school philosophers.”

The reason he is an advocate of releasing the top hand just after contact is to prevent premature rolling of the bottom-hand wrist and to facilitate lead-arm extension.

Although I use Lau's hitting theory, I found that statement quite exaggerated. Yes, it is very good thing to get extended, but it's not really the most important aspect of hitting unless you were taught a two-handed pull hitting before. It really helped some hitters though (Reggie Jackson in 1980 for example, he hit half of 40 Hr's to the opposite field)

[FiveFrameSwing]

So it sounds to me like Lau would think opposite side hitting - right handed throw, left handed bat - would be best to get the strong arm in front while rotational theory would lean towards same side hitting to get the stronger core side in front. Make any sense?

In Ted William's book he stated that right-handed individuals would be best off batting right-handed.

One could come away from reading Lau's book that right-handed batters could perhaps be trained to be more productive from the left-side.

I don't agree with your comment about "rotational theory", in that both Ted and Charlie were discussing rotational mechanics. In my opinion Ted seemed to suggest a top-hand dominance while Charlie appeared to suggest a bottom-hand dominance.

[tom.guerry]

fiveframe said -

"Ted seemed to suggest a top-hand dominance while Charlie appeared to suggest a bottom-hand dominance."


Mankin says torque handle to enhance (quicker/earlier acceleration) momentum transfer via CHP.

[FiveFrameSwing]

fiveframe said -

"Ted seemed to suggest a top-hand dominance while Charlie appeared to suggest a bottom-hand dominance."


Mankin says torque handle to enhance (quicker/earlier acceleration) momentum transfer via CHP.

I'm not sure I understand the concept of handle torque.

My view on this is a bit simplistic.

I believe the top hand starts in a semi-BHUT (Bottom Hand Under Top hand) position, perhaps with the bat pointed back towards the pitcher somewhat. From here the top-hand/rear-arm begins two motions. One is the flattening of the top-hand into a palm-up position. Two is the realignment of the bottom-hand and top-hand, sort of like turning of a motorcycle throttle, to bring the two hands back into a relationship of palm-up/palm-down.

Is this description reasonably correct, and if not, could you please offer a better description?

Is the "handle torque" you speak of the same as the motorcycle throttle action I described above?

[FiveFrameSwing]

It depends on what action it actually is, that he describes as "extension", but I do believe that the front arm is very involved, but NOT as the first move like Gwynn teaches. The hips go, which then start the shoulders moving, which then move the bat while you keep the hands back (initially). Once the front shoulder starts out, and the hands move due to the shoulder movement, then you pull the knob with the lead arm/hand.



Lead-arm extension is at the core of Charlie Lau Jr's teachings.

By lead-arm extension, Charlie means that the lead-arm should extend through the ball an out to the field.

Charlie further recommends that the top-hand be removed shortly after contact to prevent premature top-hand wrist rollover, which he believes would be a concern.

My understanding is that Charlie feels that the bottom-hand should fully extend through and after contact. Charlie believes that if the top-hand is holding the bat barrel at the point of full bottom-hand extension, that the top-hand will have a strong tendency to roll-over.

Top-hand wrist roll-over can migrate to earlier in the swing. To remove the influence of top-hand wrist roll-over on the bat barrel, Charlie advocates the removal of the top-hand shortly after contact.

Charlie's work suggests that the bottom-hand should be more dominate than the top-hand. Do you agree with that?

What are your thoughts on removing the top-hand shortly after contact?

[Encinitas]

I'm not sure I understand the concept of handle torque.

My view on this is a bit simplistic.

I believe the top hand starts in a semi-BHUT (Bottom Hand Under Top hand) position, perhaps with the bat pointed back towards the pitcher somewhat. From here the top-hand/rear-arm begins two motions. One is the flattening of the top-hand into a palm-up position. Two is the realignment of the bottom-hand and top-hand, sort of like turning of a motorcycle throttle, to bring the two hands back into a relationship of palm-up/palm-down.

Is this description reasonably correct, and if not, could you please offer a better description?

Is the "handle torque" you speak of the same as the motorcycle throttle action I described above?

Basically I think you are on the right path here. The rear forearm if you are pointing the bat somewhat towards the pitcher with the hands out in front of, or just past your tittie is pronated. In order for that hand to get palm-up, that forearm will go from the pronated position to supinated.

Or think of it as the hands going from stacked to flat (palm-up, palm down at contact).

[old perfessor]

In my opinion Ted seemed to suggest a top-hand dominance while Charlie appeared to suggest a bottom-hand dominance.

Another distinct difference in Williams' hitting philosophy vs Lau's philosophy, is that Williams advocated a slight uppercut at impact with the ball while Lau advocated hitting down on the ball to create topspin.

[FiveFrameSwing]

Another distinct difference in Williams' hitting philosophy vs Lau's philosophy, is that Williams advocated a slight uppercut at impact with the ball while Lau advocated hitting down on the ball to create topspin.

I can't find where in the book that Charlie Lau Jr advocates hitting down on the ball. He repeatedly advocates obtaining back spin, not top spin.

Perhaps you meant Lau Sr?

[old perfessor]

I can't find where in the book that Charlie Lau Jr advocates hitting down on the ball. He repeatedly advocates obtaining back spin, not top spin.

Perhaps you meant Lau Sr?

My error...I meant backspin and yes it was Lau, Sr.

[JackB1]

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