The Low and Outside pitch

[Drill]

What makes this pitch so hard for younger players to hit?

what areas would you work on to improve hitting this pitch?


drill

[wogdoggy]

What makes this pitch so hard for younger players to hit?

what areas would you work on to improve hitting this pitch?


drill



http://swingbuster.stores.yahoo.net/infinitee.html


try this tee..its set up just for that specific pitch..

[TG Coach]

What makes this pitch so hard for younger players to hit?

what areas would you work on to improve hitting this pitch?


drill

It's hard to hit because kids are taught to turn on pitches. The low and away pitch has to be hit up the middle or they other way. Even taught how to hit rotationally, if swung at properly the low and away can be hit a long way to the opposite field. It doesn't require hands to the ball (linear) to go the other way.

[wogdoggy]

let the ball get deeper ,get more coil, less upper body rotation.

[Jim W.]

What makes this pitch so hard for younger players to hit?

what areas would you work on to improve hitting this pitch?


drill

It's hard because younger players don't practice hitting this pitch as hard as pitchers practice throwing it. Most practice hitting off a T at waist height and batting practice hitting balls down the middle. As players (and coaches) progress into upper levels of play, they soon learn the need to get into a practice routine to better hit this pitch.


I've never used the infinitee but it looks benefitial. We have someone set-up a screen about 15' in front of the batter and toss the low and away pitches. Batter practices going opposite field and/or fouling off the pitches that are boarderline strikes so then learn their limits when you have two strikes.

[jima]

It's hard to hit because kids are taught to turn on pitches. The low and away pitch has to be hit up the middle or they other way. Even taught how to hit rotationally, if swung at properly the low and away can be hit a long way to the opposite field. It doesn't require hands to the ball (linear) to go the other way.

I think waiting will help, but I believe that there has to be some extension to hit the low outside pitch consistently and effectively. The low outside pitch, is the tipping point for many who have been taught in a pure rotational, circular hand path methodology.

[bafh]

The problem youngsters have hitting the low and away pitch is the same problem adult softball players have in general. Bad mechanics and idiotic desire to hit home runs (just speaking from experience). Most kids don't have to hand and forearm strength to hit with a lot a power if they truly keep their hands inside the ball. They tend to be fully extended before the bat head crossed the BACK of the plate and swing only with their torso and upper arms. Barring your front arm that early makes it impossible to stay back on the ball and let it come into the strike zone. If you barred your front arm and actually made contact with that pitch, you would merely foul it off. Hence, they tend to lean in on outside pitches and still try to pull them.

I speak from experience. After 15 years of slow pitch softball, I have begun to play semi-competitive baseball again and it took me almost a month, 5 days a week of work with a tee and a pitching machine to break myself of trying to get out in front of every pitch. If you are truly a powerhitter in softball, there is no pitch that is a strike that shouldn't try to be pulled. That makes for bad baseball form. You have to teach kids number one to keep their hands close to their body and two, hit the ball where it is pitched. One of the things that helped me was taking a tee and setting it about a foot behind my back foot. Impossible to pull a ball that far back.

[TG Coach]

I think waiting will help, but I believe that there has to be some extension to hit the low outside pitch consistently and effectively. The low outside pitch, is the tipping point for many who have been taught in a pure rotational, circular hand path methodology.

You are absolutely correct about the waiting. Now the meat part of the bat is on the ball instead of hitting the ball off the end of the bat or missing.

[beisbolcrazy22]

Hey, even the pros have difficulty hitting this pitch. Have of them are just able to foul off the pitch.

[scorekeeper]

What makes this pitch so hard for younger players to hit?

what areas would you work on to improve hitting this pitch?

I just gotta ask so I’m sure that we’re on the same page. When you say low and away, do you mean a pitch out of the strike zone or in?

Whether it would be a called strike or not, its not just youngsters that find that pitch difficult to hit. I don’t know that its difficult to hit as much as it difficult to hit solidly.

As far as what areas to work on, I’d say that varies with the hitter. It might be more of a problem for someone who has a dominant left eye as opposed to a dominant right. It might be easier for a hitter who has very short swing as opposed to one with a long one. It might be easier for a kid with a great batting eye as opposed to one who doesn’t.

[jbooth]

What makes this pitch so hard for younger players to hit?

what areas would you work on to improve hitting this pitch?


drill

Hard for younger players?:dismay: Heck, it's hard for the world's best to hit.

Ted Williams hit .344 lifetime and over .360 a few times and he said he would only hit .230 to .250 if all pitches that he had to swing at, were low and away.

So, what do you think .260 lifetime hitters would do with all low and away pitches? .180?

[randy]

It's timing for one-it is hard to wait and let the ball get deep enough to hit it oppo.. The other thing is-it is furthest away from the eyes. That explains why so many hitters want to chase the ball up. I also agree that hitters want to try to get outside it and pull it-ain't gonna happen.

[sanguillen]

Because they have poor, sloppy, long swings.

They have poor bat speed, weak arms and hands. They don't know how to rotate the forearms to blur the barrel in frame one.

To hit the outside pitch with authority, you have to blur the barrel in frame one.

It is possible to start real early and hit inside pitches fairly well with a long, slow and sloppy swing. It's just momentum and poor hitters sometimes lean into middle/inside pitches with good results.

Poor hitters rarely drive outside pitches because you can't simply start turning early and hope to run into it. The early hip rotation pulls you off the ball. The only thing a quick hip can hit is inside.

People think you do all sorts of things, and then hit. You drop this, slot that, push here, etc. Wait until it gets deeper, etc. That's wrong. The best hitters move the barrel immediately after decision with a violent and sudden reversal of the forearms that rotates the barrel many hundreds of degrees in milliseconds. That's the swing. That's it. There is nothing else.

If you can't do it, it will be especially evident on outside pitches. They will not be hit with authority, but just kind of spooned and sliced over there.

Also, whoever said you can't pull outside pitches is wrong. At least half of the pulled home runs in MLB are outside pitches. More important than automatic dogma such as "don't pull this, don't pull that" is accelerating the barrel at the correct time. It's feel. You sit and wait, or float and wait until the time is right, then the swing is the same. When is what matters, more so than where. If the hitter is on time and sudden, any pitch can be hit to any field.

I am about sick and tired of seeing weak-armed hitters spending all their time on a batting tee pecking balls to the opposite field with the barrel at contact lagging way behind the hands. They are worried about precise place-hitting when they don't have the horsepower to hurt a wet paper bag.

Ridiculous

Sang

[Jake Patterson]

Here's what Ted did per spot..

30465

[Drill]

So it would seem with some of the answers is that low and away makes for a long loopie swing, unless you practice waiting on the pitch. Waiting on this pitch will keep you compact and not reaching for it and being able to turn on it with authority.


Thanks,


oh I had a chance to sit and analyze swing clips at an advanced hitters clinic and I saw hand position as one of the biggest faults, which lead to long loopy swings, border line arm bars. Low and out side is the Nemesis

My son does not pitch that much 13 (he has plenty of time to do this in the future) but when they do put him in he knows to toss low and outside to the big hitters. Weak hits to the right side or pop ups, never fails. Got him some wins with that pitch and he has nothing special except location.


thanks again,
drill

[sanguillen]

So it would seem with some of the answers is that low and away makes for a long loopie swing,

I must disagree.

The reason outside pitches are not hit well is because the hitters use long, slow swings in their attempts to hit them.

Outside pitches do not cause poor swings. The poor swings are poor, period.

Poor swings are poor on every pitch. It's just that poor swings are often more evident on outside pitches than they are on inside/middle. But they are just not as evident sometimes. But very often, they certainly are.

[jbooth]

Here's what Ted did per spot..

30465

That's different from the chart in my edition of Ted's book;

http://firstpickclub.com/images/tedchart0001.jpg

[Drill]

I must disagree.

The reason outside pitches are not hit well is because the hitters use long, slow swings in their attempts to hit them.

Outside pitches do not cause poor swings. The poor swings are poor, period.

Poor swings are poor on every pitch. It's just that poor swings are often more evident on outside pitches than they are on inside/middle. But they are just not as evident sometimes. But very often, they certainly are.


well a lot of time i have seen arms go out on younger people to chase the pitch.

[StraightGrain11]

That pitch is hardest to hit because it is the one farthest from your eyes. Whether you "see the ball hit the bat" or not, when that ball gets to the last point (distance) you can track it "successfully," it is farther away from the eyes than any other pitch [at that same point], this makes calculating its final location in the "hitting zone" more difficult than any other.

So how does this argument translate to Williams' .300 spot "high & tight" (closest to the eyes) vs. his .400 spot in the middle of the strike zone? Because even though we are able to calculate the final location of a ball "high & tight" with greater accuracy, we have less time to do so, as the bat must travel farther to reach this pitch than any other (middle/outter-half) - assuming a mechanically correct swing.

[wogdoggy]

I agree with sang.I've been working with my younger boy on outside pitches..threw him outside from an l screen about 15 foot away so i could hit the outside consistently.started with a vertical bat and a tip..he tipped and almost committed on every pitch..It was always a go go swing THEN if the ball was way outside he would have to ABRUBTLY tyry and check his swing..My cues to him were Get a nice coil....hip coil and hit the ball on the fat part..When he hit the ball to right his belly button never made it to the pitcher YET his bat speed was still great because he coiled longer and had the running start.On inside pitches his belly button Would make it to the pitcher..that day at his game he hit two long line outs to right..one triple to the right field fence and a rocket line single over 2nd basemans head..he seemed to want that outside pitch that day..he put the meat of the barrel on it.and had a fantastic day at the plate..the only thing Dad said "from behind the backstop",,,,was get your running start..:think:

[Infinite]

thats the one pitch that gets me almost everytime and I'm not a kid... As mentioned before I am conditioned to get around and swing at a pitch. That method just doesnt work for low and outside. Waiting for it to get deeper into the zone and for me to turn my body only to first allows me to do something with it. If a pitcher has good movement on his pitches it makes it challenging to recognize it right away. If a pitcher has no movement then its easier to recognize it out of the pitchers hands and to handle it.

[Chris O'Leary]

Low and away (on the edge of the strike zone) is the hardest pitch for anyone to hit well because you have to disconnect to go get it. That slows down the swing and robs you of power, which increases the likelihood the ball will be caught. Even tons of tilt can't always help that much.

All you can hope to do is push the ball the other way.

That's why I teach my pitchers to pitch low and away (which is an idea I got from Leo Mazzone, although at the time I didn't know why it worked).

[Infinite]

The dominant eye thing is also a good point and its important when I played basketball never equated it to baseball...

:cheers:

[wogdoggy]

Low and away (on the edge of the strike zone) is the hardest pitch for anyone to hit well because you have to disconnect to go get it. That slows down the swing and robs you of power, which increases the likelihood the ball will be caught. Even tons of tilt can't always help that much.

All you can hope to do is push the ball the other way.

That's why I teach my pitchers to pitch low and away (which is an idea I got from Leo Mazzone, although at the time I didn't know why it worked).

Low and away (on the edge of the strike zone) is the hardest pitch for anyone to hit well because you have to disconnect to go get it. That slows down the swing and robs you of power, which increases the likelihood the ball will be caught. Even tons of tilt can't always help that much.

disconnect? tilt? youre thinking of the wrong things..same swing more wait more coil..thinking connect and tilt on outside isnt going to help you..

[Jake Patterson]

That's different from the chart in my edition of Ted's book;

http://firstpickclub.com/images/tedchart0001.jpg

Here's where it came from.
30500

They are definately different. I will check my source and advise. I am wondering if mine was his last season. I will advise. Thanks Jim.

[UGDodgersSS#13]

After getting back into baseball after 25 years (with a few years of slow pitch church softball in between) I was anxious to develop my baseball swing again.

I realized that i had to do alot of practicing myself off a tee.

But all the tees that i had seen did not go down low enough to simulate the location of the low strike (for me its about 20"s).

So i decided to make my own tees...one 20", one 30"(belt) and one at 37" (letters).

Now i am able to place the 20" tee at the front of the plate on the outside black.

This allows me to learn exactly where the low/outside part (and all 4 corners) of my strikezone is.

I have since ordered the Tanner tee. The small version of this tee goes down to 20".

Obviously the next phase is practicing with pitches thrown to that spot. Its just hard finding a training partner that can consistently throw the low/outside strike.

[TG Coach]

Jake ...

Your golf balls look like someone made a homemade box and disagreed with Ted Williams. My book looks like the other example posted.

[Jim W.]

Jake,
I've seen your picture before illustrating the discussed chart. Was it a picture taken at Cooperstown by chance? I don't know, but your point could be correct in that it could have been at a specific point in his career. Regardless, both charts indicate the difficulty in hitting the lower corner pitch. Certainly why pitchers practice throwing it there so much.

[wogdoggy]

i guess we ALL can agree its a tough pitch...now how do you hit it?

[UGDodgersSS#13]

1. practice hitting off a tee of the right height, on the front corner and black of the plate.
This establishes adequate plate coverage and develops proper hand/eye coordination.

2. progress to pitches thrown to that area...live toss/medium/fast pitch, machine.

3. commit to hitting that pitch to the opposite field or gap only.

4. If you agree with Tony Gwynn...always LOOK for that pitch BUT react to an inside strike.
But here is the challenge...In this case, the reaction to an inside fastball must be very, very quick (like a reflex) because to hit the outside pitch you are waiting a little longer to let the ball get in deeper (at the front corner of the plate). But if you get an inside fastball that will be a 3rd strike, you must swing sooner to ideally hit it about 10" in front of the plate.
If you are late hitting an inside fastball, you end up with very expensive firewood!

5. Practice, practice, practice!

[scorekeeper]

That pitch is hardest to hit because it is the one farthest from your eyes. Whether you "see the ball hit the bat" or not, when that ball gets to the last point (distance) you can track it "successfully," it is farther away from the eyes than any other pitch [at that same point], this makes calculating its final location in the "hitting zone" more difficult than any other.

That sounds logical, but I have to wonder if its really true. As far as I understand it, its much easier for the brain to calculate a moving target’s position the more angle it has. IOW, its much easier to judge a ball off to one side or the other than one right at you. I’m told that’s because the velocity component is easier to see, and thus figure into the mental calculation the brain has to make.

[scorekeeper]

They are definately different. I will check my source and advise. I am wondering if mine was his last season. I will advise. Thanks Jim.

I just can’t help wondering how accurate those charts are. In today’s world a chart like that can be made extremely accurate if one chose to employ all the technology available, but back in Ted’s day, it was really little more than what goes on at the amateur levels today, with spots really nothing more than guesses about where the ball was. It was pretty good in general, but I can’t believe it was as precise as people like to believe.

Not long ago, I saw a similar chart made by using computers to locate the pitches. Pitches that weren’t hit were charted as to where they ENTERED the strike zone, and pitches that were hit, were charted as to their location when hit, not where they were in relation to the zone.

When they compared that computer generated chart with the chart made for the pitchers, it was very different indeed.

[jbooth]

I just can’t help wondering how accurate those charts are. In today’s world a chart like that can be made extremely accurate if one chose to employ all the technology available, but back in Ted’s day, it was really little more than what goes on at the amateur levels today, with spots really nothing more than guesses about where the ball was. It was pretty good in general, but I can’t believe it was as precise as people like to believe.

Not long ago, I saw a similar chart made by using computers to locate the pitches. Pitches that weren’t hit were charted as to where they ENTERED the strike zone, and pitches that were hit, were charted as to their location when hit, not where they were in relation to the zone.

When they compared that computer generated chart with the chart made for the pitchers, it was very different indeed.

I believe it was an educated guess by Ted, but also, it isn't a chart of what he could hit, it was a chart of what he thought his batting average would be.

Some pitches can be hit, but they can't be hit as hard, or on as good a trajectory as others.

As Chris stated, the low and away pitch is difficult to hit hard, and hit hard on a line that might result in a safe hit. More often, it gets hit high in the air, and not very hard. Obviously, there are exceptions, but as Ted was showing in his chart, it's difficult to consistently hit that pitch hard, on a line, or hit it deep.

[Jake Patterson]

Jake ...

Your golf balls look like someone made a homemade box and disagreed with Ted Williams. My book looks like the other example posted.I think this came from the Hall of Fame. Again I'll check my source.
Jake

[scorekeeper]

I believe it was an educated guess by Ted, but also, it isn't a chart of what he could hit, it was a chart of what he thought his batting average would be.

My bad.

However, if there was a way to do it, it would still be pretty interesting to me to see how much his guess coincided with what actually was. My guess would be it would be fairly close, considering who we’re talking about. But I doubt many hitters would be able to very accurately make a guess about themselves, and it would of course be less accurate the less experience the hitter had.

Some pitches can be hit, but they can't be hit as hard, or on as good a trajectory as others.

That’s another thing that sounds logical on its face, but I don’t know about how much it would hold up if examined in great detail.

As Chris stated, the low and away pitch is difficult to hit hard, and hit hard on a line that might result in a safe hit. More often, it gets hit high in the air, and not very hard. Obviously, there are exceptions, but as Ted was showing in his chart, it's difficult to consistently hit that pitch hard, on a line, or hit it deep.

Whether or not a ball in play turns into a “safe hit” is pretty much the luck of the draw. I’ve watched guys like Bonds, Ortiz, Thome, and Hafner hit into the teeth of a “shift” and get a whole lot of rockets get tuned into at least 1 out, and often 2. But then again, I get a real hoot when I see Hafner take a low-away pitch and just dump it into left, or roll a GB through a vacated left side that a 9YO LL’r could easily make a play on.

However, I will agree that a given low-away pitch is harder to hit hard as consistently as that same pitch in that same situation as pitches in some other locations. I.e, a 94MPH cutter to a RHB from Mario on an 0-2 count, that just paints the black, just after he threw a 84 MPH CU inside for strike 2, is gonna be a lot harder to hit than the same pitch at the belt and in the middle of the player on a 3-1 count.

This goes to one of my long held beliefs that the pitch location is only on of many different variables that goes into the success of a pitch. IOW, If Zumaya could hit the LA black, perfectly every time with a 101 FB, it wouldn’t take too long before the batters adjusted and just roped him to death like they would a pitching machine. The pitch is effective because of the situation, and how he pitcher has been able to execute.

[TL_Dad]

I teach my boys to step on it and go the other way. I also teach getting your hands through the inside pitch. We work on this in the batting cages all year long.

[Chris O'Leary]

This goes to one of my long held beliefs that the pitch location is only on of many different variables that goes into the success of a pitch. IOW, If Zumaya could hit the LA black, perfectly every time with a 101 FB, it wouldn’t take too long before the batters adjusted and just roped him to death like they would a pitching machine. The pitch is effective because of the situation, and how he pitcher has been able to execute.

The low and away pitch is most effective if you also throw some balls up and in. Otherwise, the batter can just dive or step into the low and away pitch and stay connected (and thus hit the ball hard).

If you establish the pitch up and in, then the only safe way to hit a ball low and away is to disconnect.

[TG Coach]

I teach my boys to step on it and go the other way. I also teach getting your hands through the inside pitch. We work on this in the batting cages all year long.

Step on it? Please explain.

[TL_Dad]

Step on it? Please explain.

step into the pitch and drive the ball to the opposite field.

[FiveFrameSwing]

step into the pitch and drive the ball to the opposite field.

Perhaps this is a cue to help the hitter terminate hip rotation ealier than normal?

Given that heel-plant (i.e., "step on it") occurs before rotation of the hips, I'm not seeing how this cue would work.

What is the action that is trying to be induced?

[Drill]

Perhaps this is a cue to help the hitter terminate hip rotation ealier than normal?

Given that heel-plant (i.e., "step on it") occurs before rotation of the hips, I'm not seeing how this cue would work.

What is the action that is trying to be induced?

lets take some action that i see some people teach pitchers. turn your toe toward your target. This action seems to get the hips moving and helps the pitcher follow through, why not try it when the batter strides(during timing step i dare say)


just a thought


drill

[FiveFrameSwing]

lets take some action that i see some people teach pitchers. turn your toe toward your target. This action seems to get the hips moving and helps the pitcher follow through, why not try it when the batter strides(during timing step i dare say)


just a thought


drill

I'm not understanding the sequence that you are recommending.

A hitter will stride to toe-touch prior to knowing the location of the pitch. The angle of the front-foot is already set.

What sequence are you suggesting?

[scorekeeper]

The low and away pitch is most effective if you also throw some balls up and in. Otherwise, the batter can just dive or step into the low and away pitch and stay connected (and thus hit the ball hard).

If you establish the pitch up and in, then the only safe way to hit a ball low and away is to disconnect.

I’ll certainly agree that establishing up and in is one way to keep a hitter from zeroing in on the low/away pitch, but I don’t think it’s the ONLY way. Depending on a P’s “style”, it may be that if a P truly has great command, he can simply vary the speed and the pitch type and get pretty much the same results.

To me, the thing is that once the commitment to the location is made and the swing started, if the pitch isn’t exactly what’s expected, the “disconnect” will have to take place whether its in the same spot expected or not.

[StraightGrain11]

lets take some action that i see some people teach pitchers. turn your toe toward your target. This action seems to get the hips moving and helps the pitcher follow through, why not try it when the batter strides(during timing step i dare say)


just a thought


drill

When a pitcher "closes off his front side" (keeps his front foot angled in), it is to keep his hips from opening prematurely so they don't "lock up" on him. By "stepping into the pitch," you change the point of contact relative to the body - now instead of hitting "away" from your body, you're now hitting "in-line" with it.......?

[Infinite]

i guess we ALL can agree its a tough pitch...now how do you hit it?

this is what i do. Waiting for it to get deeper into the zone. When you do a rotational swing dont go all the way around only open up your body to the first base side. Dont try to pull the ball. That allows me to drive the ball with power.

[wogdoggy]

this is what i do. Waiting for it to get deeper into the zone. When you do a rotational swing dont go all the way around only open up your body to the first base side. Dont try to pull the ball. That allows me to drive the ball with power.

exactly stay rotational build early batspeed with a tipped barrel running start,,and dont over rotate

[Jake Patterson]

Ok, here's Ted's spots... My original was cut off at the bottom by three places. It should now agree with what Ted has in his book.
Jake
30602

[tom.guerry]

5 frame said -

"Given that heel-plant (i.e., "step on it") occurs before rotation of the hips, I'm not seeing how this cue would work."

I universally see high level mlb hitters start rotating the hips open as the hands and shoulders stay back BEFORE "heel plant".

This "rubberbandwinding" or "counterrotation" or "rotation into toe touch" or "running start" or "hip clearing" or "hips lead hands" USUALLY happens before toe touch but can be delayed until front foot is down. I would say it must always have happened in a good power swing BEFORE the final "weight shift" to the front foot that synchs with shoulder "tilt" (drop heel/tilt shoulders).

[Infinite]

ok i need help on this pitch. i was at least fouling it off or putting it in play but now i am getting thrown low outside heat on a regular basis. i literally have to step across my body to even touch the damn pitch. Before it wasnt so bad I could manage putting it in play but now nothing.

i feel so helpless. here in japan they give a liberal outside the plate and being a foreigner has compounded the issue.
i get beat inside and outside. its like a text book they follow. i get heat inside then they play cutsey on the outside. eventually i either get caught looking or just cant foul them off anymore and miss all together. my average has dropped like a prostitutes underwear. i try to make them pay for the inside pitches but i usually foul them back or outside the 3rd baseline.

the league I'm in they throw an assortment of pitches from speeds from 115 to 130kph (70 to 84mph).

open to suggestions.

i was using an 83 cm (32.6 in) 2.7cm dia. to stay with a nice compact swing now i am using an 85 cm (33.4 in) 2.9bat