Orange Bowl to Fish Bowl--my Miami Ballpark proposal

[PeteU]

First, let me preface this on the fact I'm no Elvis. I'm just a guy with Windows Picture who was able to do some doodling on a computer and make up his first computer ballpark draw-up. So I apologize in advance for the somewhat rudimentary nature of my drawing.

With that being said, I've been brainstorming for a while about the Marlins ever tenous ballpark situation. And you might know that last month, the Miami Hurricanes football team, the last remaining tenant of the Miami Orange Bowl football stadium, announced they were moving in 2008 to Dolphin Stadium. This leaves the 70 year old stadium without a tenant next year, and its future in question.

Much has been made about the Marlins being able to use the Orange Bowl site. Actually, the Orange Bowl site had been proposed as a potential ballpark site even before the Hurricanes announced their move--the Marlins would have built their ballpark directly adjacent to the Orange Bowl. But now the talk is about the Orange Bowl itself being replaced with the ballpark.

Now, let me first note that the Orange Bowl site is not necessarily the ideal site for a new ballpark. It lacks either the luster of a site directly downtown (near the American Airlines Arena) or the convieneince of a site directly next to Dolphin Stadium, which is right by the Florida Turnpike and easily accessible for fans in Broward and Palm Beach counties. The neighborhood surrounding the Orange Bowl isn't exciting, parking is somewhat limited, and the roads around the stadium would probably need some improvement.

That being said, if the Orange Bowl is the only available option, the best should be made of the site. So I utilized a seating diagram of the Orange Bowl and transformed it into a baseball-only stadium. And I decided one of the best ideas is to incorporate part of the Orange Bowl grandstand into the new ballpark itself, instead of just leveling the place and starting from scratch. The purpose of this would be two-fold: First, it would preserve a famous and historic sports venue which holds a lot of sentimentality in Miamians hearts. Second, it would cut down on construction costs in that not all of the ballpark would need to be built from the ground.

So what I did was take the lower deck of the South sideline seats, as well as the West endzone, and transformed it into the first and third baselines. The entire current upper deck and north sideline seats would all be demolished. I then added a new second club level deck with luxury boxes, and a third upper deck which stretches down the first and third base lines. I added some field box seats and dugouts, and a new section of lower deck seats in the left field corner and stretching from the left field foul pole to deep left center field.

The portion of the grandstand preserved from the Orange Bowl would still need some significant renovations under this plan. It would require new seats (all Marlins teal, by the way), some needing to be angled a little bit to be more baseball than football oriented. New concession areas behind the stands would be needed, as well as new plumbing and probably a few more bathrooms. The player's clubhouses would also likely need to be rehabbed.

I decided to keep the original field dimensions from Dolphin Stadium. I like how it plays as a pitcher's park and it doesn't feel like an easy bandbox. The famed Bermuda Triangle in deep left center would be retained. I also decided to keep the 25 foot high Teal Tower in left field, which would again serve as the out of town scoreboard.

Additionally, I decided to keep what I call the "Alex Gonzalez Corner" at the left field foul pole. (I call it the "Alex Gonzalez Corner" after former Marlins shortstop Alex Gonzalez, who hit a home run in the 12th inning of Game 4 of the 2003 World Series. The homerun was not a high arching shot, but rather a sharp line drive that hugged the third base line and eeked over the fence at the left field corner). The Gonzalez Corner features an eight foot high wall starting from the left field line and going out approximately 30-35 feet until it hits the Teal Tower and goes up to 25 feet. This allows for a couple of sneak home runs to be hit, much like Gonzalez's 2003 shot.

I put the bullpens behind the right field wall. I deliberated with putting them along the foul lines like at Dolphin Stadium, but I personally like the idea of having bullpens in the outfield. The orange area surrounding the bullpens is the picnic area, which would have picnic tables and planted palm trees for scenery. The blue circle is a hot-tub area. I know, sort of gimmicky, but the Dolphin Stadium picnic area features a hot tub area, so I might as well keep up with the tradition.

The gray area behind the center field fence serves two purposes. First, it is the batter's eye for vision of the pitches. Secondly, it would be a batter's eye restaraunt, much like what is found at Tropicana Field, U.S. Cellular Field, Wrigley Field, and the New Yankee Stadium. You gotta keep the big-wigs happy, I guess.

I kept the plans very linear at as much 90 degree angle intersections as possible. I did this for the retractable roof. Personally, I'm not a big fan of the retractable roof, but it's been said to be a necessity for a new Marlins ballpark, so if it has to be there, it has to be there. I don't know if the roof would "collect" behind either the third base line or the first base line grandstands. The only thing I wanted to make sure of was that the area behind the right field fence can be made open when the roof is open--I did this because that area (the current East endzone of the Orange Bowl) features a great view of the skyscrapers of Downtown Miami.

My only criticisms of my own proposal are that there seems to be a lot of foul space along the first base line. I considered putting the bullpens there, but in the end I put them behind the right field fence. But a lot of foul space would be consistent with making it a pitcher's park, so it's not that bad an idea. Another problem I came across is that due to the curvature of the old football grandstand, the seats along the first base line are inevitably further away from the action than those along the third base line. I considered ommitting the South sideline seats entirely from the plan, but I wanted to save as much of the old stadium as possible.

Anyways, that's my plan. Feel free to offer any criticism or critque you see fit. This is all a work in progress, and I'll be happy to incorporate input anyone might want to offer and revise my plan. Who knows, I might just submit this to Marlins ownership....Anyways, enjoy!

[PeteU]

Let me add the attachment:

[PeteU]

Just for comparision, the original Orange Bowl set-up:

http://collegebowlgames.org/images/orangebowlstadium.jpg

[JohnCropp]

Hey, PeteU

The design is really creative and makes alot of sense, but I'm pretty sure that Miami is not going to hesitate in bulldozing the old stadium as soon as possible.

Like alot of the older stadiums, it was negelcted for a long time before it was recognized as being historical. Consequently, it is not in good shape and a retro-fit would be more trouble than it's worth.

In early 1999, I saw the Glasgow Rangers (Scotland) play Atletico Minero (Brazil) at the Orange Bowl (a bit of a dark pun of a venue for the Rangers support) and I very much felt like I was sneaking into an abandoned stadium when we went inside. If there was a Scooby-Doo episode set in an haunted football stadium, the Orange Bowl would be a great location.

The concept of building something out of something else is what made all of those old parks wonderful (building to fit a block) and some of the new parks instantly classic (Petco and Camden Yards warehouses). It would certainly be great for a modern stadium to incorporate sections of an old stadium. I'd love to see a 3D mock up or Elvis model of your design!

[sflnyc]

As someone who has spent years watching games in the OB, when can the construction start? Very good job done there. I presume by your design that you were able to keep the famous "Miami Orange Bowl" sign and the murals, both of which are the exterior of the West End Zone.

Consider this is coming from someone who hates the Orange Bowl with a passion and is counting the days until the Canes play at Dolphin Stadium in 2008.

[PeteU]

Hey, PeteU

The design is really creative and makes alot of sense, but I'm pretty sure that Miami is not going to hesitate in bulldozing the old stadium as soon as possible.

Like alot of the older stadiums, it was negelcted for a long time before it was recognized as being historical. Consequently, it is not in good shape and a retro-fit would be more trouble than it's worth.

In early 1999, I saw the Glasgow Rangers (Scotland) play Atletico Minero (Brazil) at the Orange Bowl (a bit of a dark pun of a venue for the Rangers support) and I very much felt like I was sneaking into an abandoned stadium when we went inside. If there was a Scooby-Doo episode set in an haunted football stadium, the Orange Bowl would be a great location.

The concept of building something out of something else is what made all of those old parks wonderful (building to fit a block) and some of the new parks instantly classic (Petco and Camden Yards warehouses). It would certainly be great for a modern stadium to incorporate sections of an old stadium. I'd love to see a 3D mock up or Elvis model of your design!

True, a retrofit of the Orange Bowl would probably require some extensive work. From what I've heard, it's become pretty delabidated.

However, even if it costs as much to renovate that portion of the Orange Bowl as it would to build totally new, I'd love to see the former option. Something about saving a part of the past and incorporating into the future is pretty cool to me.

[PeteU]

I presume by your design that you were able to keep the famous "Miami Orange Bowl" sign and the murals, both of which are the exterior of the West End Zone.



In my fantasy proposal, anything iconic which could be saved would be saved, including the signs and the murals.

Of course, in reality, Marlins ownership would probably want to put a corporate sponsor on it. It's too bad both Tropicana and Minute Maid have already bought sponsorship rights to other stadiums, because Orange Bowl would be quite fitting there. Then again, American Airlines has arenas in both Dallas and Miami, so anything's possible.

[Mex4Prez]

This isn't a knock on your drawing because that's a good way to convert a football staduim into a baseball one. But the standards that have been set for new mlb staduims is that they aren't converted football fields. On design alone I'm not sure how a converted Orange Bowl would be better then the park they are in now(whatever it's called now a days stadium). Maybe the location is better? I'm not familiar with the area.

I'm also not sure if it's structurally a good idea to put a roof on a building that is already almost 75 years old.

I know you said reposition the seats, but is that an easy job to do? You'd have to almost rebuild the whole right field line. Here are some of the seats that have really bad sightlines....
http://img81.imageshack.us/img81/8458/marlinsparkuc5.jpg

[PeteU]

This isn't a knock on your drawing because that's a good way to convert a football staduim into a baseball one. But the standards that have been set for new mlb staduims is that they aren't converted football fields. On design alone I'm not sure how a converted Orange Bowl would be better then the park they are in now(whatever it's called now a days stadium). Maybe the location is better? I'm not familiar with the area.

I'm also not sure if it's structurally a good idea to put a roof on a building that is already almost 75 years old.

I know you said reposition the seats, but is that an easy job to do? You'd have to almost rebuild the whole right field line. Here are some of the seats that have really bad sightlines....
http://img81.imageshack.us/img81/8458/marlinsparkuc5.jpg

As for the advantages of an Orange Bowl ballpark over Dolphin Stadium, Dolphin Stadium actually has the advantage of location. Dolphin Stadium is located right off the Florida Turnpike, which makes it easy to get to for fans in Broward and Palm Beach Counties. It's also surrounded by acres and acres of parking lots. Actually, an ideal location for the new Marlins ballpark would be in a large vacant lot located right next to Dolphin Stadium. But Wayne Huzeniga (still cursing the Marlins even long after selling them) owns the deed to the lot, and has steadfastly refused to sell it. I think he wants to put up some sort of Wanye Huziniga Fantasy Land or something like that which would be some sort of entertainment complex for Super Bowl guests.

The Orange Bowl lot is a lot smaller and is surrounded by residential neighborhoods. Parking is a lot more limited. During major football games, the lot will fill up and people will have to park on private lots. (There may be enough on-site spaces for a 40,000 baseball stadium, however--I don't know what the on-site max is for Orange Bowl parking.) And while the Orange Bowl is near downtown Miami, it isn't in downtown Miami. (It is sort of like Turner Field or Dodger Stadium in those regards). Although downtown Miami isn't the entertainment/nightlife hub of the city--that would be South Beach, across Biscayne Bay.

So why the Orange Bowl, then? Simply because it is available and it is large enough to fit a ballpark, with some parking issues and sounding up some surrounding infastructure not withstanding. It is a little less convienient for Broward and Palm Beach fans, but a little more convienient for Miami fans. Huzienga won't sell the adjacent lot next to Dolphin Stadium, and buying up land in downtown Miami may be costly, so the Marlins may have to take what they can get (that being the Orange Bowl) and make the best of it.

But mind you, moving to a Orange Bowl ballpark would be a major improvement over Dolphin Stadium. First and foremost, the Marlins' lease runs only to 2010, and Wayne wants to evict them beyond that point. The lease itself stinks to high heavens--Wayne (as the owner of the stadium) takes in essentially all of the money from luxury boxes, parking and I believe a good chunk of concessions. And while I'll contend Dolphin Stadium isn't a horrible place to watch a ballgame (surprisingly!), it is still a football stadium. The upper deck is ringed with the names of Dolphins greats, and the chairs all have the Dolphins logo on them. Simply put, the Marlins need a place of their own where they don't feel like they are second class citizens.

As for putting a roof on my proposal--the original Orange Bowl grandstand portion would actually be encapsulated by the new structure for baseball. The upper decks (which would be totally rebuilt for baseball) and everything surrounding the field would be new construction, and that would be holding up the roof, not the original granstand. And of course that would be built to mondern specs to support a retractable roof structure. Think of the surrounding park of the ballpark as the sarchophogas, with the old grandstand as the mummy inside.

Finally, as to the sightlines--you raise a good point, especially with the seats in the old South grandstand. However, what I was envisioning was that the grandstand be stripped bare of all of its original seats and seating fixtures--only the concrete foundation would remain. This would allow for new seats to be installed and appropriately angled for baseball. This isn't something that is necessarily revolutionary. When Oriole Park at Camden Yards first opened in 1992, one of the few complaints about the place was that the seats down the third base line past the infield faced into the outfield instead of the diamond. By 1994, the seats had been reinstalled at an angle, making for a more ideal vantage point. I could imagine the angling here being a little more dramatic, but I think it could be done.

[PeteU]

On a somewhat related note....

http://www.miamiherald.com/news/miami_dade/story/272955.html

Marlins may get $50 million for stadium
The Florida Marlins moved a step closer to getting money to build a new stadium.

BY CHARLES RABIN
crabin@MiamiHerald.com
The Florida Marlins moved a step closer to getting the missing chunk of money they claim has held the team back from building a new stadium for most of the past decade.

A citizen's advisory panel charged with overseeing the distribution of billions of dollars in bond money agreed Monday to let the Marlins use $50 million, pegged for renovating the decaying Orange Bowl, to build a new ballpark.

Tuesday, the Miami-Dade County Commission will take up a resolution by Chairman Bruno Barreiro instructing the county manager and the mayor to use all available money to negotiate with the ball club....[MORE]

[Jaybird]

Great idea, Pete U.

I also have an idea for a renovation for the Orange Bowl for baseball. Mine, however, would have made the Orange Bowl look similar to the old Baltimore Memorial Stadium.

I would have kept both the North and South sideline seats but torn down the West End Seats and put in a new seating area with luxury boxes, new press area, and club seating and other special seating. The area would be curved and would make the ball park oval-shaped. This way, the park could also be used for football or soccer should the need arise. (Ex. Florida Atlantic University, (whose current stadium, Lockhart Stadium in Fort Lauderdale, will be torn down) could be a tenant in the new stadium.

I would also remove the lower sideline seats in some parts of the sideline so the field could have respectable dimensions. The fences in left and right field would incorporate auxillary scoreboards. They could be the current LED ones like Turner Field in Atlanta has, but I would prefer either hand-operated ones like the one in Fenway Park in Boston or the ones in PNC Park in Pittsburgh where it shows where the on-base runners are. One fence would have the American League scores and messages (ex. upcoming games) and the other would have the National League scores and batting orders. Both would have the line score and the batter's count.

The bullpens would be behind the center field fence, and the batter's eye in center field would consist of native Florida greenery and shrubbery, such as palm trees. They would be in front of a new jumbotron scoreboard.

If the city of Miami and the Marlins could afford it, maybe a retractable roof structure could be built over the stadium.

If you can draw up a plan of my proposal or tell me how to do it, let me know.

[Elvis]

Great job on the plan, Pete. I'm not sure it's viable with the age of the structure, but I like your concept. :bowdown:

[Calif_Eagle]

I have read somewhere, in the past; (I dont recall the precise source) that Miami Stadium, the old home of the Florida State League Orioles and probably the old IL Miami Marlins, had some design features that were classic in nature. That it had neon illuminated foul poles & some Art Deco features or styling common to the hotels on South Beach. I know that this Stadium was also in a less than Great neighborhood, and that it was in very dilapidated condition the last I ever heard anything about it. I have a few questions re: this field. Does it still stand? Does anyone know if what I recall reading was-is true? Does anyone have any pictures, or know where any are posted? My thinking was that this park was considered to be a gem in at least some respects & I wonder if it actually did have any design features that might be worth incorporating into a new Miami area ballpark.

[PeteU]

I have read somewhere, in the past; (I dont recall the precise source) that Miami Stadium, the old home of the Florida State League Orioles and probably the old IL Miami Marlins, had some design features that were classic in nature. That it had neon illuminated foul poles & some Art Deco features or styling common to the hotels on South Beach. I know that this Stadium was also in a less than Great neighborhood, and that it was in very dilapidated condition the last I ever heard anything about it. I have a few questions re: this field. Does it still stand? Does anyone know if what I recall reading was-is true? Does anyone have any pictures, or know where any are posted? My thinking was that this park was considered to be a gem in at least some respects & I wonder if it actually did have any design features that might be worth incorporating into a new Miami area ballpark.

Miami Stadium (a.k.a. Bobby Maduro Stadium) was demolished a few years ago. Apartment buildings now stand in its place. But it was quite a impressive structure--you could see it looming off of I-95 driving into Miami. I remember seeing it in its last years. It had this unique, curved "inverted U" shaped roof to it. And the Art Deco exterior. I didn't know about the neon foul poles. Digitial Ballpark's gallery on Miami Stadium:

http://www.digitalballparks.com/International/Miami.html

You're absolutely right, the Art Deco stylings need to be incorporated into the new Marlins Park. Red brick may work in some places, but in Miami you need something unique to the area.

[PeteU]

Great idea, Pete U.

I also have an idea for a renovation for the Orange Bowl for baseball. Mine, however, would have made the Orange Bowl look similar to the old Baltimore Memorial Stadium.

I would have kept both the North and South sideline seats but torn down the West End Seats and put in a new seating area with luxury boxes, new press area, and club seating and other special seating. The area would be curved and would make the ball park oval-shaped. This way, the park could also be used for football or soccer should the need arise. (Ex. Florida Atlantic University, (whose current stadium, Lockhart Stadium in Fort Lauderdale, will be torn down) could be a tenant in the new stadium.

I would also remove the lower sideline seats in some parts of the sideline so the field could have respectable dimensions. The fences in left and right field would incorporate auxillary scoreboards. They could be the current LED ones like Turner Field in Atlanta has, but I would prefer either hand-operated ones like the one in Fenway Park in Boston or the ones in PNC Park in Pittsburgh where it shows where the on-base runners are. One fence would have the American League scores and messages (ex. upcoming games) and the other would have the National League scores and batting orders. Both would have the line score and the batter's count.

The bullpens would be behind the center field fence, and the batter's eye in center field would consist of native Florida greenery and shrubbery, such as palm trees. They would be in front of a new jumbotron scoreboard.

If the city of Miami and the Marlins could afford it, maybe a retractable roof structure could be built over the stadium.

If you can draw up a plan of my proposal or tell me how to do it, let me know.

As someone originally from Maryland who is an Orioles fan (as well as an adopted Marlins fan), Memorial Stadium is close to my heart, so any way to emulate it gets a thumbs up in my book.

I am not 100% sure, but I believe the old minor league Miami Marlins may have played a few games in the Orange Bowl where home plate was in the west End Zone, so it would not be the first time the stadium would have such a set-up.

I like your idea of palm trees and native shrubbery beyond the outfield. It works well in Dodger Stadium, and would work just as well at the Marlins Park.

Not sure about FAU--the problem is, the main campus is 45 minutes north in Boca Raton, so it would be quite a long haul for fans. I believe they are planning to build an on-campus stadium. But as a temporary, short term solution it has merit. Plus, I could possibly forsee a secondary college bowl game being held at the Marlins Park.

[PeteU]

Great job on the plan, Pete. I'm not sure it's viable with the age of the structure, but I like your concept. :bowdown:

Giving that it's coming from someone who is the undisputed grand master of creating conceptual ballpark designs (with wood and glue, no less), I certainly appreciate the compliment.

[Calif_Eagle]

Miami Stadium (a.k.a. Bobby Maduro Stadium) was demolished a few years ago. Apartment buildings now stand in its place. But it was quite a impressive structure--you could see it looming off of I-95 driving into Miami. I remember seeing it in its last years. It had this unique, curved "inverted U" shaped roof to it. And the Art Deco exterior. I didn't know about the neon foul poles. Digitial Ballpark's gallery on Miami Stadium:

http://www.digitalballparks.com/International/Miami.html

You're absolutely right, the Art Deco stylings need to be incorporated into the new Marlins Park. Red brick may work in some places, but in Miami you need something unique to the area.

Thanks for the link PeteU... I enjoyed seeing the pix.. I *know* I read that the ballpark had neon lighting on its foul poles back when neon was a national fad-rage sometime in the late 30's. Neon fades and flickers when its not properly maintained and at some point a ballclub or Stadium mgmnt might have decided it was more trouble than it was worth. I'd love to see a pic of the park when it sported neon foul poles and maybe more neon lighting besides. Its shame to see all our old ballyards demolished. I'd love to see the new Miami area baseball park incorporate design work and features from the Miami Stadium.

[marlins739]

Even though everybody likes open-air stadiums more and you can do a lot more design-wise with an open air stadium, I really think baseball in South Florida needs a retractable roof. Still, they could do the exterior in a more modern Miami art deco style. I hope they don't put a single red brick anywhere in the park. But they could make the park all red brick and green steel for all I care as long as the Marlins get a place to play in 2011.

[sflnyc]

I debated whether to put my personal photos of Miami Stadium here or in the Personal Photography thread. In the end, I decided to place them in the other thread so that it might reach a wider audience.

http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?p=1029627#post1029627

Somebody not interested in the Marlins stadium plight might not open the Orange Bowl thread and never see the gem that was Miami Stadium.

I'm sure you fellow South Florida posters understand.

[PeteU]

Latest news on the ballpark--roads will need some improvement. (Although I think even if the park were built downtown this would still be the case).

http://www.miamitodaynews.com/news/071018/story1.shtml

Study cites $12 million cost for Marlins stadium roadwork

By Risa Polansky
As funding for a Florida Marlins stadium falls into place, a draft traffic study identifies more than $12 million more needed to ease arterial traffic congestion should the stadium be built at the Orange Bowl site.
A Miami-Dade County bond advisory panel Monday approved using $50 million in bond money formerly earmarked for renovating the Orange Bowl to build a new ballpark for the Marlins. [MORE AT LINK]

[Lafferty Daniel]

When does the Marlins lease expire at Dolphin Stadium?

[PeteU]

When does the Marlins lease expire at Dolphin Stadium?

2010.

But I assume if a deal is brokered for a new stadium between now and 2010 they would probably sign a one or two year extension until the new ballpark is done.