Fr on HS V, and V makeup.

[scorekeeper]

Perhaps Jake and some others who are or have been HSHVC’s would care to say how many Frosh they’ve put on their V rosters. Of course anyone may answer, but to tell the truth, only a HVC can really say, plus explain his thinking.

The VHC at the school I score for has been coaching for 16 years, and very successfully. He says he’s only had 2 Fr on his regular season roster from the beginning of the season to the end.

For me, I can only guess, but that guess would be, in schools where there’s a Fr team and no MS players are allowed on it, a JV team where only Fr’s and So’s may play on the JV team, and the V rostered 20 players, I’d say the makeup of the V would be 30-60% Seniors, 30-60% Juniors, 10-25% Sophomores, and 5-20% Freshmen.

Anyone care to chime in?

[Jim W.]

I'm not a HSC but know it really has a lot to do with the size of the school. A large 5A school will rarely have a Freshman UNLESS exceptional skill at something they have little depth on. Following our HS for a number of years, I too am only aware of a couple of Freshman that have made the V team, a pitcher and a SS with an amazing glove (they DH'ed for him). We are however in a pretty heavy baseball area not unlike other areas but on the upper end of average.

A smaller school with fewer to draw from will often see an increased number of Fresh they can use to fill the gaps.

I think most schools are run like a minor league system where they develop until ready for the higher level.

[scorekeeper]

I'm not a HSC but know it really has a lot to do with the size of the school. A large 5A school will rarely have a Freshman UNLESS exceptional skill at something they have little depth on. Following our HS for a number of years, I too am only aware of a couple of Freshman that have made the V team, a pitcher and a SS with an amazing glove (they DH'ed for him). We are however in a pretty heavy baseball area not unlike other areas but on the upper end of average.

A smaller school with fewer to draw from will often see an increased number of Fresh they can use to fill the gaps.

I think most schools are run like a minor league system where they develop until ready for the higher level.

Just curious. What state are you in. Here in Ca, the larger the school, the smaller the “division”. I.e.. DI schools are the largest.

In general, I tend to agree that the larger the “talent pool”, the less chance for the younger players to make the V.

The question arose on another board where it seems as though most people who had a child that were Fr, were planning on their kid making the V.

[Baseball gLove]

We had 2 freshman gate-to-gate starters with only one senior on varsity. One was SS the other was center field. 4 freshman were called up for CIF playoffs. We were conference champions, but fell a very close game short of the CIF final.

[TG Coach]

The question arose on another board where it seems as though most people who had a child that were Fr, were planning on their kid making the V. Excuse me! I'm one of those posters. I said my son is getting a varsity tryout, but doubt he'll make it. When I stated size and strength a big concern, another poster agreed regarding his kid. I've seen his son pitch. He's good. In both cases, these kids play on top ranked travel teams in their states and competed in a Super Regional to go to the USSSA Elite 24. Some of the kids from these two teams will make varsity as a freshman.

Speaking for our travel team I expect the 6'3", 175 first baseman, and the 6'1" pitcher throwing 83 in the fall (should be faster in the spring) with a hard biting breaking ball, to make varsity at their schools as freshmen. Another kid from our travel team is at my son's high school. He has the extra twenty pounds and the strength. I'm just not sure as a late bloomer he has the baseball savvy yet. He has the physical tools and the baseball skills. I expect him to start a soph also. There are other quality players on our travel team I don't know their high school situations well enough to comment. I know our 14U travel team would beat a lot of JV teams last spring. We did beat a bunch of 15U JL and 16U Connie Mack teams.

A third poster explained his son will be at a high school with several heralded freshmen from a former LLWS team. I've seen his son pitch. He's just as good. But it's a Catholic school that recruits. These three players are what I call tweeners. They're probably not quite ready for varsity unless they grow more by spring and get stronger. But they will make JV over the freshman team and dominate.

Which dad/poster said his son will make varsity as a freshman other than the poster trying to help out the friend with the V/JV thing? That player is in a very small program in upstate New York. The kid of the mother in the conversation, made varsity last year as a freshman.

[TG Coach]

A nearby private that recruits and sometimes makes the USA Today Top 25, had two freshmen starters last year. One is rated a 9.5 by Perfect Game. The other is rated a nine.

[Jake Patterson]

Perhaps Jake and some others who are or have been HSHVC’s would care to say how many Frosh they’ve put on their V rosters. Of course anyone may answer, but to tell the truth, only a HVC can really say, plus explain his thinking.

The VHC at the school I score for has been coaching for 16 years, and very successfully. He says he’s only had 2 Fr on his regular season roster from the beginning of the season to the end.

For me, I can only guess, but that guess would be, in schools where there’s a Fr team and no MS players are allowed on it, a JV team where only Fr’s and So’s may play on the JV team, and the V rostered 20 players, I’d say the makeup of the V would be 30-60% Seniors, 30-60% Juniors, 10-25% Sophomores, and 5-20% Freshmen.

Anyone care to chime in?

It really depends on the type of school at which you coach and its size. Having been involved in both a small private school and a larger public I would say that the smaller the school the higher the likelyhood you would have a freshman on the team. I had several --- BUT ... My feelings are this. Talent and skill are not the only determining factor when deciding whether or not to play a freshman on varsity. The coach also has to consider the player's biological and emotional maturity. How many times have we heard the stories of coaches who rush good ball players. I have always felt that keeping freshman on the JV team allows them to grow in the game at their pace. My youngest played as a starter (I was not the coach) his freshman year. I am uncertain if this helped or hurt.

[scorekeeper]

Perhaps Jake and some others who are or have been HSHVC’s would care to say how many Frosh they’ve put on their V rosters. Of course anyone may answer, but to tell the truth, only a HVC can really say, plus explain his thinking.

GOOD GRIEF! I didn’t indict anyone or call anyone a liar! All I did was ask a question, and all of a sudden some folks act as though I’d called them flat out liars! What about the above question is so difficult to understand?

Although anyone’s welcome to comment, I didn’t ask how many Fr were on any single team, who’s kids were or weren’t gonna make the V as Frosh, or why anyone else’s kid would or wouldn’t make it!

I was hoping to get comments from real HSHVC’s who had to make the decisions, and hear why they were made because the other board I mentioned has very few actual HSHVC’s.

Of course a Fr who’s substantially better than anyone on the V should make the team! If that didn’t happen, the coach would be pretty sorry.

But for so many Fr to make the V as starters, it seems to me that the quality of the existing team is nowhere as good as people make it out to be. FI, I have no doubt that BBL’s team had 2 “gate to gate Fr starters”, but doesn’t that seem a bit weird to happen in an area where there are supposedly so many high quality ball players of every age?

Also, I think it would be interesting to hear from the coach of that team, not conjecture by someone who doesn’t know for sure, why he’d bring up 4 Fr for the playoffs. My 1st thought would be that that school has a really sorry bunch of Sophs, and had a really sorry bunch of Srs, and I’d have to really wonder why.

[Jake Patterson]

Perhaps Jake and some others who are or have been HSHVC’s would care to say how many Frosh they’ve put on their V rosters.

Using our public school to answer this - maybe one per year.

[TG Coach]

Also, I think it would be interesting to hear from the coach of that team, not conjecture by someone who doesn’t know for sure, why he’d bring up 4 Fr for the playoffs. My 1st thought would be that that school has a really sorry bunch of Sophs, and had a really sorry bunch of Srs, and I’d have to really wonder why.

It provides manueverability. Now there are more pinch runners and more position players allowing the use of pinch runners. A typical high school team has twelve players that get in the action. Often the rest are devoted hangers on who are not better than JV players. The coach wanted the younger players to get playing time all season on JV and calls them up when the JV season is over.

[Baseball gLove]

Scorekeeper you really are a sensitive one. I answered the 1st part of your question without emotion, just reporting what I knew about the high school baseball team that my son is a member of. SGYPIAW

[Baseball gLove]

GOOD GRIEF! I didn’t indict anyone or call anyone a liar! All I did was ask a question, and all of a sudden some folks act as though I’d called them flat out liars! What about the above question is so difficult to understand?

Although anyone’s welcome to comment, I didn’t ask how many Fr were on any single team, who’s kids were or weren’t gonna make the V as Frosh, or why anyone else’s kid would or wouldn’t make it!

I was hoping to get comments from real HSHVC’s who had to make the decisions, and hear why they were made because the other board I mentioned has very few actual HSHVC’s.

Of course a Fr who’s substantially better than anyone on the V should make the team! If that didn’t happen, the coach would be pretty sorry.

But for so many Fr to make the V as starters, it seems to me that the quality of the existing team is nowhere as good as people make it out to be. FI, I have no doubt that BBL’s team had 2 “gate to gate Fr starters”, but doesn’t that seem a bit weird to happen in an area where there are supposedly so many high quality ball players of every age?

Also, I think it would be interesting to hear from the coach of that team, not conjecture by someone who doesn’t know for sure, why he’d bring up 4 Fr for the playoffs. My 1st thought would be that that school has a really sorry bunch of Sophs, and had a really sorry bunch of Srs, and I’d have to really wonder why.

My son attends a small school, about 500 students total. I am not posting conjecture, you're just a sad man. Two freshman played varsity in 2007 from the 1st scrimmage game to the last game, a CIF semifinal playoff game (which we lost by one run) during the season that matters, not Fall Ball. The 4 freshman that were called up for playoffs included a catcher, 2 pitchers and a utility player with a heavy bat. A lot of high schools do this. Did the 4 get to play? No. But they were called up. You are just a sad man. We had 100% of our baseball players from the class of 2007 get drafted in the 2007 MLB draft. However that 100% is 1.

If your son had any talent, and you knew that the nearby school was stacked with talent, and you knew that you could take him to a different school, so that perhaps he could start as a varsity player sooner would you not enroll him at the other school? That is precisely what happens here. The City Section in Los Angeles allows open enrollment. That is how Chatsworth High School keeps getting top ranking in the nation. My son attends a private college prep school because I want him ready for college. That school is in the CIF Southern Section which overlays the separate CIF City Section. I could have him at a public school and play for a premier baseball coach with 6 CIF City Section Big School Titles, but I am more interested in him being ready for college. The San Fernando Valley Area of the City Section has maintained a 35 year dominance of the big school City Section Baseball Championship title over the rest of Metropolitan Los Angeles. Another thing, friends also tend to migrate to the same schools even to the private ones. That could explain the depth of a particular class. In our case we are talent rich in the class of 2008 and the class of 2010.

[Jake Patterson]

Also, I think it would be interesting to hear from the coach of that team, not conjecture by someone who doesn’t know for sure, why he’d bring up 4 Fr for the playoffs. My 1st thought would be that that school has a really sorry bunch of Sophs, and had a really sorry bunch of Srs, and I’d have to really wonder why.

Bringing 4 players up at the playoffs is not a bad strategy. It gives them exposure at the next level and it may give the coach tools on the bench he might not otherwise have.
Jake

[TonyK]

One thing that hasn't been mentioned yet is the age of the freshman player. Some frosh are 15, and older than a few sophmores on the JV team. Moving them up to varsity is the same as moving up a sophmore of the same age.

Our HS coach faces this decision next spring. An 8th grader was the starting SS on the JV team plus pitcher #2. His hitting is excellent and he is a one-sport player who practices year-round. Our Varsity will have around 15 good Sr's and Jr's on it. I feel that based on what I saw that this freshman should be moved up to the Varsity. He will contribute and get some playing time. OTOH, our JV's will be weak so I understand it if they keep this freshman down so he will be pitcher #1 as well as a SS.

Some parents grumbled when this 8th grader moved up to the JV's and weren't happy when he got the playing time that their 9th graders didn't get.

[scorekeeper]

It really depends on the type of school at which you coach and its size. Having been involved in both a small private school and a larger public I would say that the smaller the school the higher the likelyhood you would have a freshman on the team.

That sure seems to be the general consensus. My feelings are that its because since the pool size is likely smaller, the chances of having enough “strong” upperclassmen that its not necessary to “rush” Frs to the V, is less. IOW, its much more a case of a player in a small pool seeming much more advanced than he really is.

I had several --- BUT ... My feelings are this. Talent and skill are not the only determining factor when deciding whether or not to play a freshman on varsity. The coach also has to consider the player's biological and emotional maturity. How many times have we heard the stories of coaches who rush good ball players. I have always felt that keeping freshman on the JV team allows them to grow in the game at their pace. My youngest played as a starter (I was not the coach) his freshman year. I am uncertain if this helped or hurt.

That’s the kind of answer I was hoping to hear. That’s the thinking and reasoning that goes into the decision and should show people that there’s much more to it to some coaches than whether or not a Fr is 6’5”/220 and can throw a strawberry through the side of a battleship.

And it isn’t necessarily that they couldn’t “help” the V. It may not seem like it sometimes, but I believe there are a lot of coaches out there who actually have the best interests of the players in mind, and won’t use a player up just for the sake of a win or two for the varsity.

Bringing 4 players up at the playoffs is not a bad strategy. It gives them exposure at the next level and it may give the coach tools on the bench he might not otherwise have.
Jake

No doubt about it! But again, the 1st thought that comes to my mind is one of queues. One would logically assume that there were also some Sophs not already on the V who were just as good or better than 6 of the Fr. But, the question became moot when we got the information that the school was a very small school indeed, if its taken as true that its more likely that Fr play at small schools, and I think it is.

So much depends on each individual situation, that very often blanket statements really can’t be applied. FI, at our school, this coming season the coach will be forced to cut at least 10 Jrs and Srs who are easily better than anyone on the JV or Fr teams. In a situation like that, the chances of a Fr or Soph making the V is next to nothing.

But once the cuts are made and the rosters are set, when the coach determines he wants to give himself more options, such as Easter Tournaments or playoffs, it makes sense that the 1st to get the call would be the players on the lower teams that he’s been told have earned it.

[scorekeeper]

One thing that hasn't been mentioned yet is the age of the freshman player. Some frosh are 15, and older than a few sophmores on the JV team. Moving them up to varsity is the same as moving up a sophmore of the same age.

Our HS coach faces this decision next spring. An 8th grader was the starting SS on the JV team plus pitcher #2. His hitting is excellent and he is a one-sport player who practices year-round. Our Varsity will have around 15 good Sr's and Jr's on it. I feel that based on what I saw that this freshman should be moved up to the Varsity. He will contribute and get some playing time. OTOH, our JV's will be weak so I understand it if they keep this freshman down so he will be pitcher #1 as well as a SS.

Some parents grumbled when this 8th grader moved up to the JV's and weren't happy when he got the playing time that their 9th graders didn't get.

Great point, and one that has a lot to do with what Jake was saying about the “maturity” of the players. When my son played his 1st fall ball game as a Fr on the Fr team, he was 13. That late August birthday's a killer. ;)

Because of that and his size at the time, 5’6/120, I had absolutely no problem with him making the Fr team as the 7th P. I also had no problem at all with 6 weeks later, him being the only Fr promoted to the JV the entire season. The same thing happened the next year, and for the same reason. It wasn’t because he couldn’t compete at the next level at all. It was that he just wasn’t mentally or physically mature enough to do it as well as he would with a little more “age”.

Another great point to consider is why I made my initial criteria so limiting. I can’t even conceive of a situation where an 8th grader would be so good he could make the JV team as the starting SS or a starting P, let alone both, but it obviously does happen.

As to whether or not he should be moved to the V, that’s purely a decision for the coach. I don’t think there’s any way to know for sure that getting 15 PA’s, throwing 10 innings, and playing the field for 30 innings as a V player is “better” than getting 100PAs, pitching 40 innings, and playing every play in the field for the JV.

A lot would depend on the practices. In our program, the teams all use the same template the HVC uses, so they all do the same things. The JV very often practices with the V too, so its not like the difference is day and night. But I also realize not all programs are like that.

I prolly would have grumbled too, if he took PT away from my kid, but that’s a big reason why I don’t like non-HS students playing HS athletics. I think it’d be great if the rules for HS athletics were the same all across the country. ;)

[TG Coach]

No doubt about it! But again, the 1st thought that comes to my mind is one of queues. One would logically assume that there were also some Sophs not already on the V who were just as good or better than 6 of the Fr. But, the question became moot when we got the information that the school was a very small school indeed, if its taken as true that its more likely that Fr play at small schools, and I think it is.

I'll unmoot your moot point. The small school in the conversation draws and recruits some of the best talent in the area. So while the total enrollment of the school may be small, the baseball talent pool is as large as a much bigger high school.

[TG Coach]

... that’s a big reason why I don’t like non-HS students playing HS athletics. I think it’d be great if the rules for HS athletics were the same all across the country. ;)

In our state it's not allowed. An athlete has to be a freshman to play high school sports. The three kids from last spring's 8th grade team gettig varsity tryouts next spring, could have started on the high school JV team. They're already too good for the freshman team. But even if it were legal I wouldn't see any justifiable reason for it.

[Baseball gLove]

So much depends on each individual situation, that very often blanket statements really can’t be applied.

If you don't want blanket statements than ask more specific questions. Your 1st post looked like you were taking a poll. You didn't like some of the answers to your poll question and made judgments on those answers. FYI, the small school my son attends, beat a couple of top rated big school teams.

[Jake Patterson]

FYI, the small school my son attends, beat a couple of top rated big school teams.
We were beat several years back by Block Island, Rhode Island -They had 12 players - They also only had 12 high school boys...

[Baseball gLove]

We were beat several years back by Block Island, Rhode Island -They had 12 players - They also only had 12 high school boys...

Gotta love it.

[scorekeeper]

I'll unmoot your moot point. The small school in the conversation draws and recruits some of the best talent in the area. So while the total enrollment of the school may be small, the baseball talent pool is as large as a much bigger high school.

I didn’t know that among all the other things your expert in, one was the makeup of every school in SoCal and how they recruited talent, which to the best of my knowledge is illegal in Ca.

[scorekeeper]

If you don't want blanket statements than ask more specific questions. Your 1st post looked like you were taking a poll. You didn't like some of the answers to your poll question and made judgments on those answers. FYI, the small school my son attends, beat a couple of top rated big school teams.

Look at my 1st post again and tell me how Perhaps Jake and some others who are or have been HSHVC’s would care to say how many Frosh they’ve put on their V rosters looks like a poll. What would it be polling?

How can you or anone else can’t see that:For me, I can only guess, but that guess would be, in schools where there’s a Fr team and no MS players are allowed on it, a JV team where only Fr’s and So’s may play on the JV team, and the V rostered 20 players, I’d say the makeup of the V would be 30-60% Seniors, 30-60% Juniors, 10-25% Sophomores, and 5-20% Freshmen is pretty darn limiting.

What makes you think I didn’t the answer you gave? The only thing I didn’t like about it was that you aren’t the HVC, and therefore couldn’t really say why what happened, happened.

Its pretty obvious that you have something personal against me, but don’t you think its time to give it a rest?

[scorekeeper]

We were beat several years back by Block Island, Rhode Island -They had 12 players - They also only had 12 high school boys...

There are polls for the different parts of the state out here, and if one looks closely, its easy to see that some very highly ranked teams aren’t always the big schools.

Not to take anything away from any school, but I believe a lot of a school’s success comes from their schedule and the way they handle it.

FI, our league plays back to back to back games against league opponents, and all 3 games are played in the same week. In order to play that kind of schedule and be really successful, a team needs more than just a couple grade “A” P’s. But, playing 2 league games and a non-league game every week can be a real god send to a team with not as much pitching depth.

One of our “sister” leagues is totally different! We had 5 D1(Largest) schools in our league, and so did they. While we played the back to back to back series, they played 2 games against 1 league school then 1 against another in the same week. Since every league has its “weak” teams, it was much more likely that in that league you could throw #1 and #2 against a strong team, then “coast” on that 3rd game.

That’s the same kind of schedule my boy’s team played. I didn’t like it then and I don’t like it now because there was way too much juggling of the pitchers. With the schedule we play now, the coach can set a rotation like they do in the ML, and the P’s pretty much get the chance to prepare themselves much better.

Another “sister league had 6 D1 schools in it, but they scheduled not only non-league games interspersed with the league games during the season, they scheduled teams from divisions as many as 3 divisions lower because that’s the only games they could get.

Sister leagues in the south part of our section all schedule differently too. Its possible for a team who only plays league opponents twice a season plays teams who play league opponents four times a season in the playoffs. To me that’s not comparing apples and oranges.

Heck, I’d also love to see a playoff system that would allow the division winners to play each other to determine a “true” champion. There is a DII and a DIII school here that simply just whup everyone’s butt, but at the end of the year, all anyone can do is thump their chest and say “Our team is the best”.

[TonyK]

" I can’t even conceive of a situation where an 8th grader would be so good he could make the JV team as the starting SS or a starting P, let alone both, but it obviously does happen."

This young fellow has the rep of being the best player at his grade level and his age group since he was 10. At times he has struggled, but last year he grew as a hitter and a pitcher. His fielding was only so-so at SS. I would have named him our JV MVP had I been the coach.

If he moves up to the Varsity as a freshman he should hold his own as he is a solid line drive hitter. Being 5' 9", 130 lbs or so (and taller than his dad) may limit his future potential as a pitcher. I expect him to be the starting SS in his sophmore year.



"In our state it's not allowed. An athlete has to be a freshman to play high school sports."


We have had 8th graders play the Varsity sports of hockey, soccer, wrestling, tennis, and track. They need to pass a NY physical test and be approved by the Athletic Dept. It causes an uproar and I hear things like, "Who do they think they are!" from parents of other kids on the teams.

[scorekeeper]

This young fellow has the rep of being the best player at his grade level and his age group since he was 10. At times he has struggled, but last year he grew as a hitter and a pitcher. His fielding was only so-so at SS. I would have named him our JV MVP had I been the coach.

If he moves up to the Varsity as a freshman he should hold his own as he is a solid line drive hitter. Being 5' 9", 130 lbs or so (and taller than his dad) may limit his future potential as a pitcher. I expect him to be the starting SS in his sophmore year.

Not having seen him myself, and being completely without any experience with a situation like that, all I can do is guess. He may very well make the team and be lights out, but a “so-so” HSV SS isn’t something I’d think any HC would be very comfortable with.

More likely, I can see him being made a pitcher only or a position player only, unless there really is a death of solid players on the team. But like I said, anything I’d do would only be agues because I haven’t got a clue about the entire makeup of the team.

We have had 8th graders play the Varsity sports of hockey, soccer, wrestling, tennis, and track. They need to pass a NY physical test and be approved by the Athletic Dept. It causes an uproar and I hear things like, "Who do they think they are!" from parents of other kids on the teams.

It just a personal preference, but it sure seems to me that HS sports should be reserved for HS students. But then again, I suppose that since HS teams are generally kept in divisions where the situations of the schools are all fairly equal, no one really has an advantage so there’s really no harm, but as usual, I see boogie men hidin’ in the shadows.

I know of one kid for sure who’s dad had a plan. He put the kid in a tiny private school where some nice donations enabled the boy to be put on the V as a Fr.. As soon as the boy played his 1st league game as a V player, suddenly dad bought a house very close to a larger school in a different district. Of course the boy was allowed to play and had to be on the V because of the state regs.

[Baseball gLove]

I didn’t know that among all the other things your expert in, one was the makeup of every school in SoCal and how they recruited talent, which to the best of my knowledge is illegal in Ca.

TG is from So Cal.

I have yet to see a high school coach go to jail for recruiting. If you think it doesn't happen in your area as well, you are naive.

[Jake Patterson]

TG is from So Cal.

I have yet to see a high school coach go to jail for recruiting. If you think it doesn't happen in your area as well, you are naive.
Here in CT the private schools do it openly as most are regulated by NEPSSA. The public schools do not. They are governed by CIAC and the penalties for the coach, team and school are severe.
Here's a section of the rules:

Section C. Violation of By-laws, Regulations, Rules of standards of Courtesy, Fair Play and
Sportsmanship, Code of Ethics or Handbook Provisions
1. The Board of Control shall have the power to assess and to enforce such penalties, including fines, against member schools, principals, athletic directors, coaches and/or members of the coaching staff, as it deems suitable for violations of its By-laws, Regulations, Rules, Standards of Courtesy, Fair Play and Sportsmanship, Code of Ethics, or any other standard of conduct or any other provision of this handbook. Any such penalties will be administered in accordance with established due process procedures. A charge for any of the above violations may be brought against a member school, principal, athletic director, coach and/or member of the coaching staff by another member school or by the executive director of CAS-CIAC. Charges made by a member school must be submitted in writing to the executive director by the principal of the school making the charge. Charges made by the executive director must also be in writing.

2. The executive director shall transmit a copy of the charge or protest to the principal of the school or other such person against which or against whom the charge or protest has been made. The executive director shall also provide a copy of the charge or protest to the CIAC Board of Control’s chairperson.

3. The executive director, upon notification from the chairperson, shall give due notice of the time and place of the hearing to all schools and/or persons concerned.

4. There shall be a hearing before the CIAC Board of Control at which the charging party shall have an opportunity to present the facts of its charge or protest and the party charged or against which a protest has been made shall have an opportunity to present its response to the charge or protest.

5. A member school or other person against which or against whom a charge or protest has been made who is dissatisfied with a decision of the Board of Control, with the exception of eligibility cases, may within fourteen (14) days after distribution of the written decision, appeal in writing to the Board of Directors of CAS whose decision shall be final and binding on the parties.

3.0 CIAC BY-LAWS Page 4
6. All member schools of the Conference shall be notified in writing of any case of suspension of a member school.

Section D. Termination of Membership - Suspension
A school may be suspended from the Conference by a two-thirds vote in favor of suspension by the VOTING MEMBERSHIP of the Board of Control upon satisfactory evidence of failure to abide by the [By-laws], regulations and Eligibility Rules of the Conference. The period of suspension shall be determined by the Board of Control, but the length of suspension shall be no more than one year.

[Baseball gLove]

In response to this:

Perhaps Jake and some others who are or have been HSHVC’s would care to say how many Frosh they’ve put on their V rosters. Of course anyone may answer, but to tell the truth, only a HVC can really say, plus explain his thinking.

Anyone care to chime in?

I posted this:

We had 2 freshman gate-to-gate starters with only one senior on varsity. One was SS the other was center field. 4 freshman were called up for CIF playoffs. We were conference champions, but fell a very close game short of the CIF final.

The moderators know that my post is factual.

Here is where you call me out in particular, in essence questioning my veracity and/or my knowledge of the game.

....But for so many Fr to make the V as starters, it seems to me that the quality of the existing team is nowhere as good as people make it out to be. FI, I have no doubt that BBL’s team had 2 “gate to gate Fr starters”, but doesn’t that seem a bit weird to happen in an area where there are supposedly so many high quality ball players of every age?

Also, I think it would be interesting to hear from the coach of that team, not conjecture by someone who doesn’t know for sure, why he’d bring up 4 Fr for the playoffs. My 1st thought would be that that school has a really sorry bunch of Sophs, and had a really sorry bunch of Srs, and I’d have to really wonder why.


Do you want to know why a varsity coach would consider placing a freshman on varsity? It is common sense really. When the freshman throws over 85 mph with control and doesn't get rattled. When the freshman consistently hits line drives and some home-runs to boot with few strikeouts. When the freshman plays with more heart then some of the varsity players. The varsity coach must also consider grades. Will his slacking senior be eligible? A good varsity coach doesn't look at the label when he decides to play a junior over a senior, a sophomore over a junior, or a freshman over all. He looks at which player can produce the best result for the team.

[Baseball gLove]

Here in CT the private schools do it openly as most are regulated by NEPSSA. The public schools do not. They are governed by CIAC and the penalties for the coach, team and school are severe.
Here's a section of the rules:

Section C. Violation of By-laws, Regulations, Rules of standards of Courtesy, Fair Play and
Sportsmanship, Code of Ethics or Handbook Provisions
1. The Board of Control shall have the power to assess and to enforce such penalties, including fines, against member schools, principals, athletic directors, coaches and/or members of the coaching staff, as it deems suitable for violations of its By-laws, Regulations, Rules, Standards of Courtesy, Fair Play and Sportsmanship, Code of Ethics, or any other standard of conduct or any other provision of this handbook. Any such penalties will be administered in accordance with established due process procedures. A charge for any of the above violations may be brought against a member school, principal, athletic director, coach and/or member of the coaching staff by another member school or by the executive director of CAS-CIAC. Charges made by a member school must be submitted in writing to the executive director by the principal of the school making the charge. Charges made by the executive director must also be in writing.

2. The executive director shall transmit a copy of the charge or protest to the principal of the school or other such person against which or against whom the charge or protest has been made. The executive director shall also provide a copy of the charge or protest to the CIAC Board of Control’s chairperson.

3. The executive director, upon notification from the chairperson, shall give due notice of the time and place of the hearing to all schools and/or persons concerned.

4. There shall be a hearing before the CIAC Board of Control at which the charging party shall have an opportunity to present the facts of its charge or protest and the party charged or against which a protest has been made shall have an opportunity to present its response to the charge or protest.

5. A member school or other person against which or against whom a charge or protest has been made who is dissatisfied with a decision of the Board of Control, with the exception of eligibility cases, may within fourteen (14) days after distribution of the written decision, appeal in writing to the Board of Directors of CAS whose decision shall be final and binding on the parties.

3.0 CIAC BY-LAWS Page 4
6. All member schools of the Conference shall be notified in writing of any case of suspension of a member school.

Section D. Termination of Membership - Suspension
A school may be suspended from the Conference by a two-thirds vote in favor of suspension by the VOTING MEMBERSHIP of the Board of Control upon satisfactory evidence of failure to abide by the [By-laws], regulations and Eligibility Rules of the Conference. The period of suspension shall be determined by the Board of Control, but the length of suspension shall be no more than one year.

I don't see any jail time penalties in there. First I'd like to know how you are going to prove it? Here is an example: The high school coach's son plays in your senior league and helps coach one of the teams. During the summer the coach is running his son's club team. Wow, some of those kids should be going to the PS school down the street, but no they are attending one of the top baseball schools in the country. There was nothing written, no offers of money. Prove he was or wasn't recruiting. By the way, this is a public school. Now lets talk about private schools. No residency requirements. Some of those kids are getting their tuition paid for them, I think they were called academic scholarships.

[Jake Patterson]

I don't see any jail time penalties in there. First I'd like to know how you are going to prove it? Here is an example: The high school coach's son plays in your senior league and helps coach one of the teams. During the summer the coach is running his son's club team. Wow, some of those kids should be going to the PS school down the street, but no they are attending one of the top baseball schools in the country. There was nothing written, no offers of money. Prove he was or wasn't recruiting. By the way, this is a public school. Now lets talk about private schools. No residency requirements. Some of those kids are getting their tuition paid for them, I think they were called academic scholarships.

Here it's based on residency. I've been in the system for a while and do not know of a public school situation where it is not based on residency. And that is easy to regulate.

[Jake Patterson]

I don't see any jail time penalties in there.
PS: I did not imply there was any jail time.

[Jake Patterson]

Now lets talk about private schools. No residency requirements. Some of those kids are getting their tuition paid for them, I think they were called academic scholarships.
I coached at a private prep school - we agree on the above.

[Baseball gLove]

Here it's based on residency. I've been in the system for a while and do not know of a public school situation where it is not based on residency. And that is easy to regulate.

As it used to be here. But somehow, someway certain players made it to certain schools. It was so prevalent that officials threw their hands up and so now allow open enrollment in the CIF City Section, but if a player wants to transfer they are ineligible for a year. There is a new exception rule for freshman transfers.

[Baseball gLove]

PS: I did not imply there was any jail time. I know you didn't. I posted my reply for emphasis of that fact.

[Jake Patterson]

You are correct it seems a little more complicated than here. Here's some of the rules. I have a cousin who coaches in So.Cal. I'll see if I can learn more.

CIF Bylaw 202.B. prohibits providing false information in regard to any aspect of eligibility. CIF Bylaw 510 (Undue Influence – Recruiting) prohibits any person or persons to secure, retain or influence what high school a student attends. In both cases, there are severe penalties for both the student-athlete and the school. The student-athlete penalty could include ineligibility for up to 24 months. Please report unethical behavior immediately to your school principal to help protect your student-athlete eligibility. Unethical behavior, recruiting and cheating hurts everyone. Anytime a student moves from one school to another school (School “A” to School “B”), the student is considered a “transfer” student.

Before the First Day of 10th Grade
A family may make a decision to transfer their student prior to the first day of the student’s 3rd consecutive semester (typically the first semester of the sophomore year) of attendance since the initial enrollment in 9th grade and still retain residential athletic eligibility when the specific conditions are met. Please see CIF Bylaw 207.A.(3). for the conditions that must be met for the student to retain residential athletic eligibility. The student and his/her family will need to complete all necessary forms to help the new school determine that no recruiting took place and that the student meets all other CIF academic and eligibility standards in order to participate at the new school. These forms must be completed and approved
prior to the student participating in a game or contest.
Anytime Following the First Day of 10th Grade When a family makes the decision to transfer the student after the first day of his/her 10th grade year, there may be limitations on the student’s athletic eligibility, depending on the classification of the student.
Classifications of Transfer Students
1. A valid change of residence student.
2. A transfer without a valid change of residence.
3. An involuntary transfer student (when a school/district forces the student to change schools).
Regardless of the type of transfer, there will be paperwork, (forms and documentation) that the student and his/her
parents/legal guardians will have to complete for the new school (School “B”) in order to request athletic eligibility. The new school (School “B”) will communicate with the transfer student’s privious school (School “A”) and work with the parents to complete the necessary forms to ensure not only residential eligibility but also academic eligibility. On the following page is an abbreviated explanation that describes the athletic eligibility process for students who transfer under these circumstances. It is hoped that families will be better prepared to make “school choice” decisions with an understanding of the impact of those decisions on their student’s residential athletic eligibility.

Here's the site: http://www.cifstate.org/governance/transfer_eligibility/pdf/parent%20handbook%20I%20061807.pdf

[scorekeeper]

TG is from So Cal.

I have yet to see a high school coach go to jail for recruiting. If you think it doesn't happen in your area as well, you are naive.

And I’m from Ohio. But to tell the truth, I don’t keep up with every single HS school in the area I’m from.

To begin with, it isn’t an offense that calls for jail time, so for you to imply it does is foolish. 2ndly, it is an offense which can, has, and will bring down the wrath of a state association if a public school coach gets caught doing it.

Lastly, I know it happens but its still cheating and I don’t like it anymore than I like to see kids on juice, using alcohol, using drugs, smoking, or being given special consideration for academic work. Its cheating, but more than that, any adult who just turns their back and either ignores or accepts it is despicable.

[scorekeeper]

The moderators know that my post is factual.

I never said you didn’t say that.

Here is where you call me out in particular, in essence questioning my veracity and/or my knowledge of the game.

Please explain how I “called you out” or questioned “your veracity and/or knowledge of the game”?

Why didn’t you quote everything I said rather than take something out of context?

GOOD GRIEF! I didn’t indict anyone or call anyone a liar! All I did was ask a question, and all of a sudden some folks act as though I’d called them flat out liars! What about the above question is so difficult to understand?

Although anyone’s welcome to comment, I didn’t ask how many Fr were on any single team, who’s kids were or weren’t gonna make the V as Frosh, or why anyone else’s kid would or wouldn’t make it!

I was hoping to get comments from real HSHVC’s who had to make the decisions, and hear why they were made because the other board I mentioned has very few actual HSHVC’s.

Of course a Fr who’s substantially better than anyone on the V should make the team! If that didn’t happen, the coach would be pretty sorry.

But for so many Fr to make the V as starters, it seems to me that the quality of the existing team is nowhere as good as people make it out to be. FI, I have no doubt that BBL’s team had 2 “gate to gate Fr starters”, but doesn’t that seem a bit weird to happen in an area where there are supposedly so many high quality ball players of every age?

Also, I think it would be interesting to hear from the coach of that team, not conjecture by someone who doesn’t know for sure, why he’d bring up 4 Fr for the playoffs. My 1st thought would be that that school has a really sorry bunch of Sophs, and had a really sorry bunch of Srs, and I’d have to really wonder why.

I made it very clear that it just seemed to me that ….

Now how is that calling you out?

Then I said I think it would be interesting …. I never said your comments were wrong or shouldn’t have been made, but made it clear that I would like to hear from that coach. Why? Unless you claim to know exactly why that coach made every decision he made, what you have to say IS nothing more than conjecture!

I further said that My 1st thought would be …, How is that calling you out, or challenging your knowledge or veracity?

Go back to the very 1st post where I made it very plain that only a HVC could really explain his thinking. I said that because its true! The rest of us can only guess.

Do you want to know why a varsity coach would consider placing a freshman on varsity? It is common sense really. When the freshman throws over 85 mph with control and doesn't get rattled. When the freshman consistently hits line drives and some home-runs to boot with few strikeouts. When the freshman plays with more heart then some of the varsity players. The varsity coach must also consider grades. Will his slacking senior be eligible? A good varsity coach doesn't look at the label when he decides to play a junior over a senior, a sophomore over a junior, or a freshman over all. He looks at which player can produce the best result for the team.

Unless you’re now a HVC, those are only the opinions of someone no different than myself, and is only guessing about what runs through the mind of HC’s. It may well be true, but would you care to make a guess how many Fr’s who play on the V, those things can be said about?

If those traits were “common”, there wouldn’t be any need to put any Fr on the team because there’d already be at least 3 players in every So, Jr, and Sr class, so where would that Fr play?

You try to make it sound as though those traits are common in Fr, and I’m saying they aren’t! Ask every HS coach in the country how many Fr they’ve ever seen in their lives like that and what do you think the answer’s gonna be, that they get 2-3 kids like that every year?

I’m saying there are a lot more Fr that get put on the V who aren’t 85+ with control and poise P’s, or constant line drive hitters who blast HR’s and don’t strike out very often. How many of those guys do you thing play HS ball in any grade?

[scorekeeper]

You are correct it seems a little more complicated than here. Here's some of the rules. I have a cousin who coaches in So.Cal. I'll see if I can learn more.

Be very careful about accepting anyone’s word about the CIF bylaws! Depending on where your cousin coaches, they may have different bylaws! Evidently the LA City Section is using the “vanilla” bylaws from the state, but other sections are allowed to, and do change the bylaws. http://www.cifstate.org/about/sections/index.html

One of the problems out in this nuthouse, is that the very constitution and rules vary all over the place, and that makes for some very big problems. The CA state rules on eligibility have been changing fairly regularly over the last few years, and although they are basically the same, things may very well be different when you look deeply, and catch some poor soul who moves from one section to another without making very sure that the section they’re moving into has the same rules as they one they left.

It’s a lot like the federal government and the state governments. There are federal laws, but there are a heap of state laws too! It’s a large pain in the butt! But a large a pain in the butt as it might be, believe me, the state assn and the sections, at least the one I’m in, take it super seriously, as well they should.

[metrotheme]

I used to be a head coach at a public HS in NYC. We didn't have a JV so we took freshmen on our team and we had some that were ready (at least on our level) to contribute. JV ball in the NYC PSAL is pretty weak and more schools do not have JV teams than those that do. In the Catholic League, you would be very hard pressed to find a freshman on the varsity.

I am not in favor of putting non high school aged kids on the high school teams. Socially I don't think it's a good idea (do you really want a 13 yr old 8th grader being influenced by a 18yr old senior?), nor do I think it is a good thing physically. You only get one time around at high school and that spot for the 8th grader is taking some other high school kids' spot (possibly a seniors'). That 8th grader will still have 4 more years of varsity ahead of him, he doesn't need to take time from someone else who is already in high school. He'll have his 4 years of shine, let those who are of age have theirs.

[Baseball gLove]

And I’m from Ohio. But to tell the truth, I don’t keep up with every single HS school in the area I’m from.

To begin with, it isn’t an offense that calls for jail time, so for you to imply it does is foolish. 2ndly, it is an offense which can, has, and will bring down the wrath of a state association if a public school coach gets caught doing it.

Lastly, I know it happens but its still cheating and I don’t like it anymore than I like to see kids on juice, using alcohol, using drugs, smoking, or being given special consideration for academic work. Its cheating, but more than that, any adult who just turns their back and either ignores or accepts it is despicable.

You used the word "illegal." Chose your words more carefully.

[Jake Patterson]

You used the word "illegal." Chose your words more carefully.

ADJECTIVE: 1. Prohibited by law. 2. Prohibited by official rules: an illegal pass in football. 3. Unacceptable to or not performable by a computer: an illegal operation.

[scorekeeper]

You used the word "illegal." Chose your words more carefully.

ADJECTIVE: 1. Prohibited by law. 2. Prohibited by official rules: an illegal pass in football. 3. Unacceptable to or not performable by a computer: an illegal operation.

????????????????

And what does the word illegal mean to you? What Jake posted seems to cover it pretty well for me.

Perhaps you view public HS recruiting as just a venial sin rather than a mortal sin, and maybe it is. What the heck, everyone does it, and no one gets hurt, right? Besides, isn’t the old saying, “If ya ain’t cheatin’ ya ain’t tryin’” the guiding words of athletics?

[Jake Patterson]

“If ya ain’t cheatin’ ya ain’t tryin’” the guiding words of athletics?
They are not mine.

[scorekeeper]

I used to be a head coach at a public HS in NYC. We didn't have a JV so we took freshmen on our team and we had some that were ready (at least on our level) to contribute. JV ball in the NYC PSAL is pretty weak and more schools do not have JV teams than those that do. In the Catholic League, you would be very hard pressed to find a freshman on the varsity.

Did you have a Fr program?

My guess is, JV ball is generally pretty weak when compared to the V, and Fr ball is even weaker. In any system where the BEST can and are promoted to the top echelon, the lower ones will be weaker. Although it doesn’t mean that when comparing only Fr teams to each other, or JV teams to other JV teams, there won’t be some great players and teams. There will also be some lower echelon players at some schools that could easily be promoted at others.

I am not in favor of putting non high school aged kids on the high school teams. Socially I don't think it's a good idea (do you really want a 13 yr old 8th grader being influenced by a 18yr old senior?), nor do I think it is a good thing physically. You only get one time around at high school and that spot for the 8th grader is taking some other high school kids' spot (possibly a seniors'). That 8th grader will still have 4 more years of varsity ahead of him, he doesn't need to take time from someone else who is already in high school. He'll have his 4 years of shine, let those who are of age have theirs.

That seems to be heresy if one believes in the dogma that says the best players have to be promoted regardless of anything else. ;)

[TG Coach]

TG is from So Cal.

I have yet to see a high school coach go to jail for recruiting. If you think it doesn't happen in your area as well, you are naive.

I used to laugh during De La Salle's 100+ football winning streak while they were insistant they didn't recruit. Oaks Christain with 150 students had six D1 football players in one class recently. Anyone who doesn't believe privates recruit has their head in the sand. Even publics to some subtle recruiting. When a former NBA player with a sixteen year old son made it know he was buying a house in the area he probably got more calls from high school basketball coaches than realtors. When you get into city basketball there's a lot of "moved in with my uncle." There's one high school in our conference we joke "based on where that kid lived last year XYZ Boulevard must have moved a few blocks. Another high school is involved with a "save the inner city kid" program. They seem to save a lot more tailbacks, wide recievers, point guards, centers and sprinters than chess champions.

[TG Coach]

As it used to be here. But somehow, someway certain players made it to certain schools. It was so prevalent that officials threw their hands up and so now allow open enrollment in the CIF City Section, but if a player wants to transfer they are ineligible for a year. There is a new exception rule for freshman transfers.

At one point in time, Darryl Strawberry (Mets), Eric Davis (Reds) and Chris Brown (Giants) all moved (sarcasm) within the boundaries of Crenshaw High in the same year. It wasn't for baseball. Crenshaw is a traditional basketball power. All three were stud basketball players.

[scorekeeper]

They are not mine.

I certainly hope not! If they were, I’d feel really bad that I’d misjudged you as being the kind of person I’d want my child to be coached by.

[TL_Dad]

I know one family that rents an apartment in another school district and stays there 3 nights a week (so I am told) to fulfill residency obligations. I don't agree with it but they have had a hearing and they are allowed to play.

[TL_Dad]

Back to the subject of Freshman. My son is a frosh this year at a 5A school. Last year they had 4 Freshmen on the Varsity team. They only had 2 Seniors on that team. This school is know for basketball. I don't care where my son plays I just want him to play alot.

[Jake Patterson]

I know one family that rents an apartment in another school district and stays there 3 nights a week (so I am told) to fulfill residency obligations. I don't agree with it but they have had a hearing and they are allowed to play. If they meet the minimum residency requirements then they play. I find the whole thing pretty ridiculous. Too many parents take the whole HS athletic thing way to serious. I had a Freshman leave my team because the mother thought her son was not getting the play time and exposure our private school gave him. She pulled the kid and sent him to a public school that had a Cape Cod head coach as their BB coach. She felt he would be able to make her stud son shine... He didn;t make his starting squad until his senior year and never played beyong HS. What he lost was the education a good prep school could have given him.

[Jake Patterson]

Back to the subject of Freshman. My son is a frosh this year at a 5A school. Last year they had 4 Freshmen on the Varsity team. They only had 2 Seniors on that team. This school is know for basketball. I don't care where my son plays I just want him to play alot.How many kids in a 5A school??

[Jim W.]

How many kids in a 5A school??

I stand to be corrected but from what I could find through Google, in Texas for a school to be classified as 5A, it must have at least 1,925 students. At last check our local HS had 3,800+. That's quite a pool to draw from.

Usually between 70-100 freshman tryout each year. We carry a Sophmore, JV and Varsity team. It's rare for a freshman to move to Varsity.

[Jake Patterson]

I stand to be corrected but from what I could find through Google, in Texas for a school to be classified as 5A, it must have at least 1,925 students. At last check our local HS had 3,800+. That's quite a pool to draw from.

Usually between 70-100 freshman tryout each year. We carry a Sophmore, JV and Varsity team. It's rare for a freshman to move to Varsity.

We have less than 500 students... I think that makes the job easier.

[TL_Dad]

How many kids in a 5A school??

Our school has 2450 students. We have a Frosh, JV and Varsity teams.

[Jake Patterson]

Found this article:

Franklin team hit with stiff sanctions
Published 12:00 am PDT Wednesday, October 17, 2007
The stiffest sanctions ever imposed on a California high
school football team were met with defiance and threats of
a lawsuit from Stockton school officials.

http://www.sacbee.com/100/v-print/story/438182.html

[Baseball gLove]

Found this article:

Franklin team hit with stiff sanctions
Published 12:00 am PDT Wednesday, October 17, 2007
The stiffest sanctions ever imposed on a California high
school football team were met with defiance and threats of
a lawsuit from Stockton school officials.

http://www.sacbee.com/100/v-print/story/438182.html

They were recruiting players from American Samoa...

[Jake Patterson]

They were recruiting players from American Samoa...

They were recruiting players.

[Baseball gLove]

They were recruiting players.


The Stockton Unified School District is trying to prevent the governing body that oversees high school sports in the Sacramento region from suspending one of its member high school football programs for recruiting teenagers from American Samoa.


That's brazen recruiting. I wonder if they paid for the air fares. About $800 (plus tax & fees) each one way.

[Jake Patterson]

That's brazen recruiting. I wonder if they paid for the air fares. About $800 (plus tax & fees) each one way.


We recruited players from Puerto Rico... Not sure it really helped.

[Baseball gLove]

We recruited players from Puerto Rico... Not sure it really helped.

Nearby Simi Valley Pony often wondered about the true ages of the kids on the teams from Puerto Rico at the 13U and 14U Pony World Series Finals.

[EamusCatulli]

In my state, coaches put the stud freshman players on the varsity roster, with no intent of ever playing them, to discourage them from switching schools. Once on a varsity roster, you have to sit out a year before playing varsity for another school. At least some let them play JV most of the season and then put them on the varsity roster at the end of the season so they can sit on the bench for the tournament.