Pitching Delivery for review [Archive]

Chris O'Leary

10-08-2007, 12:46 PM

Gee Chris don't hold back now! I mean, hey, I asked for the feedback, but please, the WORST you have ever seen...Chris, you don't get to many 9 year old baseball games do you? I am no novice at this my friend, I see kids, in just about every game I see, who have worse arm action, inverted L or not! I normally read the responses with me, I guess I can't this time, although he is going to ask.

Sorry, but I call 'em like I see 'em and you asked if you are going in the right direction.

I've never seen a young kid make an Inverted L like that. Just because you may have doesn't mean that it's a good thing to do.

IMO, you are receiving very bad advice (I can only assume from Paul Nyman) if your son is being taught to do what he is doing.

If you look for yourself, you will see that your son's arm action is nothing like that of...

- Roger Clemens (http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Pitching/RethinkingPitching/Essays/ProperPitchingMechanics_RogerClemens.html)
- Greg Maddux (http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Pitching/RethinkingPitching/Essays/ProperPitchingMechanics_GregMaddux.html)

I would recommend against signing or drafting someone with the arm action of your son.

tominct

10-08-2007, 01:13 PM

Sorry, but I call 'em like I see 'em and you asked if you are going in the right direction.

I don't know, I was hoping you (or anyone) would look at the previous clips as well as the top one, and perhaps you did.

If you look for yourself, you will see that your son's arm action is nothing like that of...

- Roger Clemens (http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Pitching/RethinkingPitching/Essays/ProperPitchingMechanics_RogerClemens.html)
- Greg Maddux (http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Pitching/RethinkingPitching/Essays/ProperPitchingMechanics_GregMaddux.html)

.[/QUOTE]

And why would he? He has been pitching for less than a year. He has to get more physical, that is for sure. On top of the Inverted L, I guess.

I would recommend against signing or drafting someone with the arm action of your son.

Huh? "signing or drafting" HE'S 9!!!! He is the least athletic of any of his friends, although he has some coordination, but no explosion, maybe its the slow-twich muscle fibers, who knows. I am in no way worrying about his being drafted, I just want him to be competitive with kids his age, and at this point he is very middle of the road, maybe top 45 % is a very small community. I have no illusions.

Tom

Xavier&Trin...

10-08-2007, 02:04 PM

Stop throwing around letters like they are arm actions. How many starts has this L missed in his career?
http://www.cuteanduseless.com/images/bz.jpg

Encinitas

10-08-2007, 02:24 PM

Holy Schnikes!!!

Tom it would appear that you can just get your kid a skateboard and save him the trouble of wasting away on the diamond.

Reminds of one of my son's Pop Warner coaches. They put a bunch of first year 12's on one team and they kind of look first year players. At a parent meeting this little dweeb linebacker coach who is smaller than my wife says "the reality is only one or two of these kids will make it to Varsity Football". He should be glad I wasn't there that night, because I'd have ripped into him. One of the other dads (some big guys with under grown kids right now) apparently said something and for that I am glad, because I might not have handled it so well. As a baseball/basketball coach I try to find some words to keep a kid coming back for me, while slipping in something they can work on if they want to practice.

I just have extreme intolerance for anyone who discourages a kid. Chris you might want to tone it down a bit. This kid is 9 years old.

TG Coach

10-08-2007, 02:53 PM

At a parent meeting this little dweeb linebacker coach who is smaller than my wife says "the reality is only one or two of these kids will make it to Varsity Football".

There's nothing wrong with what the coach said as long as he isn't saying it in front of the kids. He's right. The point is youth sports are more likely to develop fans of the game than high school varsity players, and parents should keep the games in perspective.

Chris O'Leary

10-08-2007, 03:04 PM

I just have extreme intolerance for anyone who discourages a kid. Chris you might want to tone it down a bit. This kid is 9 years old.

And I have extreme intolerance for people who teach kids to do things...

1. That great pitchers like Greg Maddux, Roger Clemens, Tom Glavine, and Randy Johnson do not do.

2. That you see in the arm action of pitchers like Chris Carpenter who have had serious and repeated injury problems.

Chris O'Leary

10-08-2007, 03:05 PM

Encinitas

10-08-2007, 03:40 PM

There's nothing wrong with what the coach said as long as he isn't saying it in front of the kids. He's right. The point is youth sports are more likely to develop fans of the game than high school varsity players, and parents should keep the games in perspective.

I should add it was in front of the kids which is why it was wrong, perhaps I wasn't clear.

tominct

10-08-2007, 03:44 PM

Was your son taught or encouraged to make the Inverted L?

Well, I would really sound like an idiot if I said I did now, wouldn't I? And I suppose that is true. HOWEVER Chris, I have read lots of what you have written, and I have spent years here reading and asking questions, and I have learned alot.

AS a matter of fact I took a series of Clemens stills from one of your bits there and saved still images of my son's deliver at each spot(or as close as my video quality would allow). I placed them side by side in a word document and talked to him about the differences, and there were many! I supopse that's why I posted the links to the other clips too, don't worry, I am very aware that he has significant adjustments to make. THAT IS WHY I AM HERE!

Would it be better for me not to be here?

He doesn't pitch that often, so I get to post clips only rarely.

But you know something, you will hate his invereted L, someone else will hate his delivery because it looks like Nyman, or someone else will hate it because it ISN'T Mike Marshall, someone else will rip this or that, and that's fine, but there's no reason why we have to be biting in our criticism.

Encinitas

10-08-2007, 03:47 PM

And I have extreme intolerance for people who teach kids to do things...

1. That great pitchers like Greg Maddux, Roger Clemens, Tom Glavine, and Randy Johnson do not do.

2. That you see in the arm action of pitchers like Chris Carpenter who have had serious and repeated injury problems.

Look I hate seeing kids with a middle out, no stride, no separation swing, but that doesn't mean I'd rip the kid laboring through it. :hyper: :hyper:

I think the kid looks fine, and he's barely old enough to pitch let alone have someone tell him his "inverted L" will doom him. He'll need to get a little longer stride.

scorekeeper

10-08-2007, 04:26 PM

I have my own ideas about what is happening here, but I would like to hear from others. (hips not opening ahead of the shoulders, etc) BTW he's 9, a bit behind the curve physically, but just can't get enough of pitching, why, I have no idea!

I’m not sure why anyone is peeved at Chris. Tom said he wanted to hear from others, and he heard from Chris.

I HATE his arm action. It may be the worst I've ever seen in a kid his age.

He has a major inverted L which will eventually destroy his shoulder and elbow.

Death To The Inverted L (http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Pitching/RethinkingPitching/Essays/index.html)

This can lead to timing and other problems.

Was he taught to break his hands like this?

I would not have been so absolute about what will happen in the future because of his motion, but saying it could lead to timing an other problems is certainly a valid statement, especially after referencing the essay he wrote.

I didn’t see anything in what Chris wrote as mean or insensitive because he was answering an adult, not a child. All he did was respond to a question.

Why Tom would ask what he did, I’m not too sure, but the 1st time I looked at the thread, it sure looked as though a dad was looking to get some pats on the back for his son’s skills. But whenever I see someone say they have no illusions about their child and only want them to be competitive with kids his age, the 1st thing that goes through my mind is that dad wants to see his boy more than be competitive, which is what middle of the road means.

Personally, if we can believe what’s been said, I can’t see how any action he uses now is gonna affect him much because he doesn’t pitch that often.

Why wouldn’t you let him read what Chris wrote? Do you only want him to hear things about himself that make him feel like he’s perfect? Why not let him read Chris’s response, then go through the essay with him to show him why what was said, was said.

Sometimes the truth hurts, but if you’re not willing to hear what everyone sees as the truth, you ought to be very careful about the questions you ask.

All that being said, I don’t especially care to see anyone compared to the very best professional pitchers, especially little kids. So, thinking along those lines, compared to all 9YO’s I’ve ever seen, the boy looks pretty good, and obviously has lots of time to refine his action.

robertsr

10-08-2007, 09:41 PM

"you are receiving very bad advice (I can only assume from Paul Nyman)"

Mr. O'leary, I would think a pitching expert such as yourself would be able to offer his advice without trying to cut Nyman in the process.

I just received something the other day from Paul Reddick who seems to know a thing or two about pitching. Paul said he considers Ron Wolforth to be one of the best pitching coaches in the world. Wolforth is doing quite well for himself, and who does he attribute his pitching transformation to??? Nyman.

Jerry Weinstein has worked WITH more professionals and coached more future professionals than you will in 3 lifetimes, and he speaks highly of Nyman.

Mr. Stock has also given Nyman quite a bit of credit for the development of young Robert. I'm quite certain my pitchers, and my son would be pretty happy with even a little of Robert Stock's success.

True knowledgeable people don't need to rip others to try and pad their own resume.

Go Cardinals

10-08-2007, 10:50 PM

Stop throwing around letters like they are arm actions. How many starts has this L missed in his career?
http://www.cuteanduseless.com/images/bz.jpg

That's not an inverted L, he is using his elbows, or getting the elbows above the shoulder. Also, there are some exceptions to the rules, how else did Mark McGwuire's swing get by in the pros?

jima

10-09-2007, 06:50 AM

Jake Patterson

10-09-2007, 07:07 AM

Guys,
Was there a full moon last night??? I deleted several posts.

Tom asked for help. Give him your thoughts on the clip and leave the attacks on your key board. Based on what I know of Tom he is smart enough to figure what will work and what won't.

Xavier&Trin...

10-09-2007, 07:13 AM

That's not an inverted L, he is using his elbows, or getting the elbows above the shoulder. Also, there are some exceptions to the rules, how else did Mark McGwuire's swing get by in the pros?

Not according to the inventor of the "L". He lists Zito as an L'er. Sorry.

Jake Patterson

10-09-2007, 07:22 AM

I've always questioned why anyone would post a vid of their kid for all to take pot shots at. Tom, if there are posters here that you trust, send them a clip via PM. By the way, the way your son takes the ball out of his glove is generally not taught...most of the time it is a strength issue. Chris, there is no vast conspiracy out there teaching kids the inverted L. I agree there are few, if any, youth teachers that know how to teach. If you believe that there is a conspiracy, I suggest that you develop a video for youth coaches which instruct youth coaches on the basics to throwing a baseball, say ages 6 - 10. I'm sure LL and a lot of youth leagues could use it to coach their volunteer coaches.

Jim Good post -

To all: I believe that we all need to be careful with teaching youngsters how to throw and pitch. There is no good established training methods out there that I have found that teaches youth coaches how to teach pitching to young players like Tom's without hurting their arms. Using Major League methods just does not work. All one has to do is look at how many ML pitchers are on the injured reserve list (130?).

Again, there are those who are working on this, but are not ready to share. Chris I believe works hard at understanding the art of pitching and works at using science to support his views.

The key is kids are kids and not skilled adults. Comparing them to the best MLB'ers makes no sense at all to me. The problem we have as coaches is we do not have good 9, 10, 12, year old models to compare them against who do not use injurious methods. MOST successful children using MLB methods do not get past MS ball using methods traditionalists feel are adequate.

Pitching like anything we learn is accomplish in incremental steps. Tom, take what you feel you can use and disregard the rest. Living in CT I would be happy to meet with you and show you what limited amount I know.

justthefacts

10-09-2007, 08:30 AM

Tom,

The latest clip shows very good throwing progress as compared to the earlier clips.

With respect to the inverted "W" or tipped over "L" which some are now calling it, it's amazing that people can pass judgment on something they know virtually nothing about.

For instance I have yet to see anyone provide anything that resembles scientific evidence that what they "think" is the inverted W creates problems.

For example attempting to use specific players such as Mark Prior or Anthony Reyes as bad (increases at the ball) pitching mechanics examples because their arm action approximates the inverted W does not take into account that both of these players were instructed by House whose pitching mechanics mantra include such things as towel drill (which promotes disconnection of the throwing process) and the developing throwing arm extension toward home plate (perceive velocity). Attempting to gain extension toward home plate at release is the same as disconnection in hitting i.e. loss of connection to the rotation of the body which possibly creates undue stress on the shoulder. Kerry Woods also exhibits this property.

There are two types of injuries that a most common with throwing injuries to the shoulder and injuries the elbow.

Injuries to the shoulder are associated with what happens at the point of maximum horizontal abduction of the shoulder when it transitions to external rotation (subluxation of the humeral head) and what happens just prior and with release of the ball and thereafter issues (decelebration of the arm).

If one does a search biomechanics literature, elbow issues are associated with valgus stress more than any other factor.

Since all reasonably good arm actions result in getting to what might be termed the high cock position (inverted W, flat W, goal post, slinger, etc.), shoulder problems associated with release of the ball and thereafter should not be an issue with the inverted W.

With respect to subluxation of the shoulders issues, we are talking about the point in the delivery where the arm initiates external rotation combined with horizontal abduction of the humerous. Excessive horizontal abduction of the humorous is also hyperflection of the shoulder. Hype reflection of the shoulder is not the same as retraction of the scapula (abduction of the scapula) while maintaining 0 degrees of humeral horizontal abduction. The scapula can retract/abduct as much as 30° which gives the appearance of hyperflection. Abducting the scapula is what prevents hyperflection of the shoulder and therefore mitigates subluxation of the humorous potentially caused by external rotation of the humorous in an extremely horizontally abducted position of the shoulder.

With respect to elbow problems there is at least some evidence that the inverted W creates a less stressful situation on the elbow.

Valgus stress is largely created by external rotation of the shoulder. External rotation of the shoulder is largely a passive process resulting from rotational acceleration of the upper body. It is the initial rotational acceleration of the upper body where valgus stress it is maximized due to the inertia of the forearm lagging behind. This is because the inertia of the forearm resists the rotational acceleration of the upper body, i.e. wants to lag behind creating stress on the UCL (valgus tensile stress) while at the same time creating various stress (compressive forces) in the radial-capitellar joint (bone on bone compression).

Potential reduction of valgus stress via the inverted W is possible due to the fact that getting the hand up to the throwing position from the inverted W position is a proactive activity of the muscles meaning that the forearm has momentum in the external rotation direction prior to the rotation of the upper body "forcing" external rotation.

The point being that establishing a high cock position in a static manner and then rapidly rotate and shoulders has the potential for creating maximal damage due to the inertia lag of the forearm. Whereas if the forearm has momentum already in the direction that is congruent with external rotation caused by rotation of the shoulders then potentially there is less destructive forces in the elbow because it decreases the apparent moment of inertia of the forearm in the direction of the rotational plane created by the shoulders and therefore less valgus stress is created.

Again one has to have a basic understanding of physics (kinematics and kinetics) to appreciate this.

And for those who want to delve into the real science, Werner et al has developed a relationship for valgus stress which is:

Valgus Stress = -.5221 + .035 (Shoulder Abduction Angle) + .004 (Peak Shoulder Horizontal Adduction Angular Velocity) - .048 (Elbow Angle at the Instant of Peak Valgus Torque) - .962 (Maximum Shoulder External Rotation Torque).

Which again illustrates that by far the greatest contributor to valgus stress is Maximum Shoulder External Rotation Torque which is common to all forms of arm action.

The bottom line is I see it (and no two people can see the same thing) is that your son is making good progress considering the before and after clips.

Also you may be interested in the following which depicts the throwing development progression process.

http://www.pitching-mechanics.org/PMOFTP/et1.jpg
http://www.pitching-mechanics.org/PMOFTP/et2.jpg
http://www.pitching-mechanics.org/PMOFTP/et3.jpg

Also be aware that research shows that to become an expert at any endeavor typically requires anywhere from 7-10 years of what is called deliberate practice. A form of deliberate practice would be backwards chaining for throwing.

What most every biomechanical study which attempts to correlate stresses of pitching with injury glosses over or completely ignores is the fact that the harder one throws the baseball, the greater the stress on the arm and body. For players wishing to maximize their baseball throwing capabilities, the search is for the most efficient mechanics as opposed to the search for safe mechanics.

Chris O'Leary

10-09-2007, 09:22 AM

I don't know, I was hoping you (or anyone) would look at the previous clips as well as the top one, and perhaps you did.

Huh? "signing or drafting" HE'S 9!!!! He is the least athletic of any of his friends, although he has some coordination, but no explosion, maybe its the slow-twich muscle fibers, who knows. I am in no way worrying about his being drafted, I just want him to be competitive with kids his age, and at this point he is very middle of the road, maybe top 45 % is a very small community. I have no illusions.

Tom,

Let me apologize for perhaps being too harsh. It wasn't my intention. It's just that what I see touched a very raw nerve.

1. If you are indeed being encouraged to teach your son to make the Inverted W or Inverted L, then I think you are getting bad advice. You do not see the Inverted W or Inverted L in the arm action of great pitchers with long careers. However, you do see it in the arm action of pitchers like Mark Prior and Chris Carpenter who have had continual injury problems.

2. I do not think you are stupid for doing what you are doing. I would just ask you to be skeptical about the advice you are receiving. As Mark H says, compare it to what the best pitchers in the world do. When I look at the arm action of proven greats like Greg Maddux, Roger Clemens, Tom Glavine, Tom Seaver, and Randy Johnson, I do not see the Inverted W or the Inverted L.

3. I am not alone in feeling that the Inverted L, the Inverted W, and Hyperabduction are bad. Below is a message that I received from an orthopedic surgeon in support of my ideas...

Chris I am an orthopedic surgeon, and would like to offer you a theory on why the inverted W is bad to the long term health of the shoulder. In the position of hyper abduction, elevation and extension of the distal humerus above the shoulder (inverted W) the inferior glenohumeral ligament is placed on stretch. The humeral head must lever against it to advance the arm forward. This ligament is the primary anterior stabilizer of the glenohumeral joint with the arm elevated (i.e. pitching). In other words, this position places this ligament under tension, then it is levered against in order to throw. This eventually will either loosen the shoulder, or tear the anterior labrum. It should be recognized this ligament is under stress during the "normal" delivery. If you traumatically dislocate your shoulder, this ligament is a key part of the pathology. Shoulder instability in turn leads to impingement, and other problems. Conversely, when the elbow is below the shoulder, this ligament would not be as stressed. Also, the specific use and timing of the muscles about the shoulder is critical. They have done muscle activity studies during throwing, and there are distinct differences between amateurs and professionals. There is also evidence for muscle use differences in the healthy shoulders, and the ones that aren't.

4. I do not believe that you should follow all of the advice of Dr. Marshall. Instead, I would suggest that you use Greg Maddux as your model.

5. In terms of the whole drafting comment, my point is that it's hard to change a pitcher's arm action down the road. As a result, I think it's important that pitchers follow good examples when they are young. In my mind that includes Greg Maddux and Roger Clemens.

I hope that clears some things up.

Chris O'Leary

10-09-2007, 09:24 AM

Stop throwing around letters like they are arm actions. How many starts has this L missed in his career?
http://www.cuteanduseless.com/images/bz.jpg

Sorry, but Barry Zito hasn't had a long career in the scheme of things. When I talk about long careers, I'm talking about 20+ years.

Also, over the past few years Zito has been having velocity problems (he tried to change his mechanics during Spring Training to get a few MPH back), which are often a sign of impending shoulder problems.

justthefacts

10-09-2007, 09:32 AM

Chris I am an orthopedic surgeon, and would like to offer you a theory on why the inverted W is bad to the long term health of the shoulder. In the position of hyper abduction, elevation and extension of the distal humerus above the shoulder (inverted W) the inferior glenohumeral ligament is placed on stretch. The humeral head must lever against it to advance the arm forward. This ligament is the primary anterior stabilizer of the glenohumeral joint with the arm elevated (i.e. pitching). In other words, this position places this ligament under tension, then it is levered against in order to throw. This eventually will either loosen the shoulder, or tear the anterior labrum. It should be recognized this ligament is under stress during the "normal" delivery. If you traumatically dislocate your shoulder, this ligament is a key part of the pathology. Shoulder instability in turn leads to impingement, and other problems. Conversely, when the elbow is below the shoulder, this ligament would not be as stressed. Also, the specific use and timing of the muscles about the shoulder is critical. They have done muscle activity studies during throwing, and there are distinct differences between amateurs and professionals. There is also evidence for muscle use differences in the healthy shoulders, and the ones that aren't.

Unfortunately (for those who equate doctors with all-knowing experts about pitching or should I say throwing) it appears his surgeon has a very narrow view of how the body throws the baseball. From his description he assumes that the shoulders remain level that they are is no contribution due to scapula actions i.e. that what he describes is simply the relationship of the humerus with respect to a stationary scapula.

It is quite simple to demonstrate that one can maintain 0° of horizontal shoulder abduction and 90° of shoulder abduction and then through the process of scapular retraction an elevation create what this doctor would perceive as extreme cases of shoulder abduction and horizontal abduction.

For the layperson it is important understand that the connective tissues and muscles described by this orthopedic surgeon originate/terminate in the scapula-humeral domain. That the surgeon is not taking consideration that the scapula can move this entire domain without placing any stress on the tissues cited.

This is the essence of scapula loading and unloading i.e. creating maximum range of motion, maximum applied force to the kinetic chain/sequence and still maintaining healthy alignment of humeral to scapular relationships i.e. not placing any the stress that this orthopedic surgeon thinks is happening.

Again simply the difference between someone who understands the throwing process of high-level players as opposed to someone who is speculating about anatomy.

Sorry, but Barry Zito hasn't had a long career in the scheme of things. When I talk about long careers, I'm talking about 20+ years.

Don't you just love people who create their own definitions of what is good and bad.

I'm sure that any dad would take a definite Barry Zito career i.e. if his sun is throwing the way Barry Zito does as opposed to attempting to change him to the way that Greg Maddux throws.

Was just reading an article on how to judge good decision-makers. Most people fall into the trap of judging good decision-makers based on the results of the judgments they make i.e. after the fact. The experts who study this stuff say that good decision-makers are those who have the ability to make good decisions without knowing the actual consequences of those decisions. They call this decision making process "coherence".

For anyone who wishes to become "perceived" as a pitching expert all one needs to do is combine pitching mechanics and injury prevention in the same sentence and you are well on your way. Especially if you stipulate that one can only judge the results of your predictions 20 years into the future....

Chris O'Leary

10-09-2007, 09:37 AM

Chris, there is no vast conspiracy out there teaching kids the inverted L. I agree there are few, if any, youth teachers that know how to teach. If you believe that there is a conspiracy, I suggest that you develop a video for youth coaches which instruct youth coaches on the basics to throwing a baseball, say ages 6 - 10. I'm sure LL and a lot of youth leagues could use it to coach their volunteer coaches.

There is a drill out there, that I have been told that Paul Nyman promotes (I believe Ron Wolforth may use the same drill), that I believe encourages pitchers to make the Inverted L.

Pitchers are taught to come to a "T" position (e.g. elbows out and at the level of their shoulders) with the ball at their chest. They then break their hands out of this "T" position by keeping the elbows high and swinging the ball down, out, and then up into the high cocked position.

The problem is that you do not see this arm action in great players like Greg Maddux and Roger Clemens. Instead, in the case of Clemens you see what could be labelled as "Circle Up". In the case of Maddux and Randy Johnson, they come to a "W" position (see below).

I think people should be taught arm actions that have withstood the test of time, not arm actions that might work in the short term but may have long-term negative consequences.

http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Pitching/Images/Miscellaneous/GregMaddux_W_097.jpg

http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Pitching/Images/Miscellaneous/GregMaddux_W_098.jpg

http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Pitching/Images/Miscellaneous/GregMaddux_W_099.jpg

http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Pitching/Images/Miscellaneous/GregMaddux_W_100.jpg

http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Pitching/Images/Miscellaneous/GregMaddux_W_101.jpg

http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Pitching/Images/Miscellaneous/GregMaddux_W_102.jpg

http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Pitching/Images/Miscellaneous/GregMaddux_W_103.jpg

Chris O'Leary

10-09-2007, 09:39 AM

Mr. O'leary, I would think a pitching expert such as yourself would be able to offer his advice without trying to cut Nyman in the process.

I'm not trying to cut Paul.

I'm trying to get people to question the ideas that I believe he is putting forth.

justthefacts

10-09-2007, 10:01 AM

Throwing the baseball is the sum total of the entire body action.

Again very studies have shown that 50% of throwing comes from ground to shoulder. And 50% comes from shoulder to fingertips.

Young Maddux is doing a lot of other things correctly with his torso that many players don't do that allows him to "make up" for something that may be less than optimal arm action.

Therefore unless you understand the delivery in its entirety it is impossible to stipulate one arm action over another simply based upon a pitches overall delivery (results of the delivery).

There are extremes such as Jamie Moyer versus Josh Beckett. Both are successful as measured by their performance at the major-league level. Moyer throwing 82-83 and Beckett consistently frying 94-96. To say that everyone should look like Moyer or to say that everyone should look like Beckett is foolish.

To say that Moyer has optimal mechanics or that Beckett has optimal mechanics is just as foolish without taking into consideration much more than just measuring the results of their pitching efforts (wins, losses, longevity). There are just too many other factors involved to make definitive judgment on such a narrow issues as the goodness or badness of the inverted W. And this doesn't take into account the total lack of anything resembling scientific method in making the determination by the critics of the inverted W. Hell, the biggest critic of the inverted W doesn't even understand what it is (how it works).

I will be the first to say that anyone who attempt to throw to their maximum potential velocity will also be putting maximum potential stress on their body. This is simple physics and physiology. All any parent or player cares about is simply a matter of finding those throwing mechanics that will allow the player to achieve the desired goal. That goal is making it to the major-league than you damn well had better consider that throwing 90 mph is almost a mandatory goal. And therefore you had better find a way to throw 90 mph and hopefully in the process you're finding a way of throwing 90 mph that allows you to do other things such as win baseball games.

But for those who haven't figured out yet baseball life works on the principle of velocity is king. Simply because the higher the level of competition the less numbers of throwers are needed and therefore it is a buyers market i.e. there are more bodies to choose from than there are spaces for those bodies.

Again it's one thing to be an armchair theorist regarding optimal pitching mechanics in something else again to develop real flesh and blood pitchers who are capable of advancing to the highest levels and/or achieving their baseball goals.

GFK

10-09-2007, 10:21 AM

... If you are indeed being encouraged to teach your son to make the Inverted W or Inverted L, then I think you are getting bad advice. You do not see the Inverted W or Inverted L in the arm action of great pitchers with long careers. However, you do see it in the arm action of pitchers like Mark Prior and Chris Carpenter who have had continual injury problems. ...

cum hoc ergo propter hoc (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Correlation_does_not_imply_causation#General_patte rn)

Not looking to pick a fight with you Chris. In my opinion, there are to many variables unaccounted to allow drawing a cause-effect relationship line between "The Inverted W or Inverted L" and arm injuries.

jima

10-09-2007, 11:00 AM

Just the facts - you sound like you have a good knowledge of pitching fundamentals....your focus, though, appears to be centered on debating Chris as opposed to helping Tom...What basic drills would you recommend? How often would you have him throw? How often from the mound? Would the emphasis be on control or velocity? Tom probably has a few more:blush:
For the purpose of "truth in posting" I have in fact sent Chris and Jake a vid of my 14yo pitching in competition. Chris also warned me that he (my son) had an inverted w. As I think that I have previously stated in other threads, his pitching coach agrees that it is more difficult to time the motion to the plate and that his extra motion can cause the arm to be "stuck" and might cause stress to the arm. Therefore, instead of radically changing his natural pitching action, he works quite a bit on timing. One thing Chris didn't notice, but has been of bigger consequence, is that his lead shoulder "spins" out too quickly leaving his arm to do all the work. It sounds like you don't like the infamous "towel drill" due to disconnection but it has been one drill, among many others, that has helped him "feel" how to keep the lead shoulder on target longer. I appreciated Chris' input and I hope he keeps working at it, but I don't feel he has all the answers anymore than House, Nyman or Wolforth (but I do like the backchaining method to working through mechanics). My son, like TG's and BLove's, is a freshman in H.S. As they are, I'm trying to help him make the best choices re: baseball should he continue play and have success. Its a crapshoot...find people you trust and keep trying to learn. If he gets injured, I'll be the first to let BF know so we all may learn something. Sorry about being all over the place on this response...caffeine. jima

Chris O'Leary

10-09-2007, 11:26 AM

cum hoc ergo propter hoc (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Correlation_does_not_imply_causation#General_patte rn)

Not looking to pick a fight with you Chris. In my opinion, there are to many variables unaccounted to allow drawing a cause-effect relationship line between "The Inverted W or Inverted L" and arm injuries.

But why take the chance with the Inverted W or Inverted L when we know the "Circle-Up" model works (e.g. Roger Clemens) and the "W" model works (e.g. Greg Maddux and Randy Johnson)?

That's the reason why I haven't adopted Marshall's model of arm action. I don't think it's been proven.

Chris O'Leary

10-09-2007, 11:29 AM

justthefacts

10-09-2007, 11:30 AM

... appears to be centered on debating Chris as opposed to helping Tom...What basic drills would you recommend? How often would you have him throw? How often from the mound? Would the emphasis be on control or velocity?

Tom already has most of this information.

As I think that I have previously stated in other threads, his pitching coach agrees that it is more difficult to time the motion to the plate and that his extra motion can cause the arm to be "stuck" and might cause stress to the arm.

If used drawing from a true inverted W, his arm cannot get stuck and there will be no timing issue. The dynamics of the inverted W will not let this happen. But this assumes that he is truly throwing with an inverted W. And unless you forced the inverted W on him, his inverted W arm action is how his body figured out to throw the baseball. In other words he figured out on his own what was necessary to do with the sound in on a to throw the baseball.

The problem with just about everyone here is that you think you know what good mechanics looks like. Most of you don't. And for the few that do have some idea as to what constitutes good mechanics, very few if any understand how to implement good mechanics.

The front side flying open is a movement problem. Opening up the front side is simply a way early in the throwing development process at the player learn how to effectively solve the goal of throwing as he understood it. Again there are an infinite number of ways to use the body to throw the baseball and spinning the front shoulder or pulling off the front shoulder or opening the front shoulder are simpler ways of using the body to throw the baseball i.e. they require less coordinated movements of the entire body ("spinning" of the upper torso is an easy way to swing and throw). Hence they are movement patterns that a learned early in the throwing process. They are also movement patterns that will also stay with the player as long as the players satisfied with the results and is not pushed either by the competition and/or by an outside agent to make changes.

Also what most don't understand is that the creation of skilled movement does not progress in a cookbook fashion. Creation of skilled movement is a chaotic process with peaks and valleys. Also in order to get from point a to be sometimes one has to go through D,E and F. Again the nature of a dynamic nonlinear process which is called the movement produced by the human body.

If your son has (had) a true inverted W throwing action, you should have feel blessed because a true inverted W throwing action is the closest embodiment of arm action that is necessary to produce the most effective whipping throw type action.

justthefacts

10-09-2007, 11:39 AM

But why take the chance with the Inverted W or Inverted L when we know the "Circle-Up" model works (e.g. Roger Clemens) and the "W" model works (e.g. Greg Maddux and Randy Johnson)?

That's the reason why I haven't adopted Marshall's model of arm action. I don't think it's been proven.

Hence we are to believe that no one who has "circled up" or use the "W model" has never sustained arm injury.

I will now engage in the same type of proof/logic as O'Leary and say that if you took the entire population of major-league players who ever pitched the baseball and were able to correlate arm action to injury you would find there is virtually no difference in injury incidents between any of the arm actions.

And if I remember correctly the average major-league pitching career is less than six years. Point being that this encompasses all types of arm action, and from my experience the circle up and flat W are the most prevailent.

And then how do we explain the John Smoltz's is of the world who is the model of the classic inverted W. also understanding that John Smoltz throws a hell of a lot harder than Greg Maddux. And that Clemens has also spent time on the injury list when he was with Boston.

As I said before in today's society all one has to do is combine pitching mechanics with the words injury prevention and you automatically have a soapbox to preach from. Combine this with the overall decline in athletic capabilities of today's youth generation and you have a prescription for overprotective parents making excuses (for themselves) for underachieving children.

TG Coach

10-09-2007, 11:41 AM

For the record...

Just The Facts = Paul Nyman

I know who Paul Nyman is. I only know Chris O'Leary to be a kiddie ball coach. If I were you, I don't think I'd use exposing him as a selling point.

deaconspoint

10-09-2007, 12:08 PM

I know who Paul Nyman is. I only know Chris O'Leary to be a kiddie ball coach. If I were you, I don't think I'd use exposing him as a selling point.

Who is Paul Nyman, and what makes his opinions carry any more weight than the next guy?

TG Coach

10-09-2007, 12:22 PM

Who is Paul Nyman, and what makes his opinions carry any more weight than the next guy?

Look up SetPro http://www.setpro.com Nyman is endorsed by a lot of pro players. Nyman has been known to help pitchers increase velocity. Whether a person agrees with Nyman or not, he's one of the successful gurus.

Jake Patterson

10-09-2007, 12:25 PM

Who is Paul Nyman, and what makes his opinions carry any more weight than the next guy?

Go to Setpro and read...

Jake Patterson

10-09-2007, 12:26 PM

TG Coach

10-09-2007, 12:34 PM

Xavier&Trin...

10-09-2007, 12:39 PM

Sorry, but Barry Zito hasn't had a long career in the scheme of things. When I talk about long careers, I'm talking about 20+ years.

Also, over the past few years Zito has been having velocity problems (he tried to change his mechanics during Spring Training to get a few MPH back), which are often a sign of impending shoulder problems.

Sorry Chris, next time when showing an example of why your "L" means nothing Ill use L'ers like Don Sutton, and Fergie Jenkins to make my point.

scorekeeper

10-09-2007, 12:48 PM

As I said before in today's society all one has to do is combine pitching mechanics with the words injury prevention and you automatically have a soapbox to preach from. Combine this with the overall decline in athletic capabilities of today's youth generation and you have a prescription for overprotective parents making excuses (for themselves) for underachieving children.

And why shouldn’t people be interested in finding out anything they could about what dogmatic practices were accepted in years past that have some proof pointing to why they may not be the greatest thing since sliced bread?

Overall decline in athletic capabilities … ?????????????? What hat did you pull that out of?

I find it pretty bizarre that anyone would say that, while there are so many preaching that today’s athletes are bigger, stronger, and more knowledgeable than in any generation before.

If that is your opinion, please state that its so, or else please list any reference to any study or generally accepted authority that concurs with what you said.

wrstdude

10-09-2007, 01:01 PM

What do you base this observation on??

+1

There are an awful lot of records breaking in all sports for such a decline.

justthefacts

10-09-2007, 01:11 PM

The Decline of Physical Activity: Why Are So Many Kids Out of Shape?
By Ted Villaire

Making Physical Activity a Family Affair
In recent years, leading government health organizations have issued multiple reports outlining how a lack of exercise combined with poor eating habits are having devastating effects on the nation's children. One of the most alarming developments, according to organizations such as the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) and the U.S. Secretary of Health and Human Services, is the doubling of childhood obesity in the past 30 years—a trend they expect only to get worse as more schools eliminate gym classes and recess.

Researchers maintain that it's not just the schools that are dropping the ball when it comes to adequately promoting physical activity among young people: Parents also play a significant role in the problem. By not strictly limiting TV watching, computer and video game use, and consumption of fast food, and not requiring their children to walk more, play outdoors, and participate in organized physical activities, more kids are putting on more pounds, and in many cases, setting themselves up for the risky medical problems.......

The new PE - 'Life' sports are emphasized instead

Tom Weir, Arlington
USATODAY.com

Abstract:
"It's just going to be a matter of time before people realize we have to do something to get our kids to be more active," [Bane] McCracken says. "The kids who come into our classes are getting less and less fit. With more and more kids I find that just a fast walk is about all they can do, and they're going to break our health-caresystem."

And with respect to major-league baseball, as of April 2006, almost 30% of major-league players came from outside the United States. Which is an indication of at least two things. Baseball is declining as a sport of choice by kids. And those that do participate for the most part do not have the physical tools or skills to advance to the highest levels. I don't have the hard numbers but I believe that something like 80% do not play baseball after 12 or 13 years of age.

27.4 percent of Major League Baseball players born outside the U.S.
Players born outside the 50 United States represented 27.4 percent of those surveyed on the 2006 Opening Day rosters of the 30 Major League Baseball Clubs, it was announced today.

Overall, 223 of the 813 players (747 active, 25-man roster players and 66 players on disabled lists) on April 2 rosters were born outside the 50 United States, representing 15 different countries and territories. The 2006 figure of 27.4 percent is the third highest total on record, with last year's record high of 29.2 percent (242 out of 829 players) leading the way.

All you have to do is attend a little league tryout in your local town to "see" what is happening.

MLB reported yesterday that the minor league rosters are still more international -- 3,098 out of 6,701 players, or 46 percent, are from abroad -- though this figure seems to include Puerto Rico as well as actual foreign territories.

For all of the ballyhoo of travel ball and select teams, the quantity of US-born quality players is on the decline. At least as measured by the competitive standard of who makes it to the major leagues and who does not.

Chris O'Leary

10-09-2007, 01:24 PM

Hence we are to believe that no one who has "circled up" or use the "W model" has never sustained arm injury.

I will now engage in the same type of proof/logic as O'Leary and say that if you took the entire population of major-league players who ever pitched the baseball and were able to correlate arm action to injury you would find there is virtually no difference in injury incidents between any of the arm actions.

And if I remember correctly the average major-league pitching career is less than six years. Point being that this encompasses all types of arm action, and from my experience the circle up and flat W are the most prevailent.

And then how do we explain the John Smoltz's is of the world who is the model of the classic inverted W. also understanding that John Smoltz throws a hell of a lot harder than Greg Maddux. And that Clemens has also spent time on the injury list when he was with Boston.

As I said before in today's society all one has to do is combine pitching mechanics with the words injury prevention and you automatically have a soapbox to preach from. Combine this with the overall decline in athletic capabilities of today's youth generation and you have a prescription for overprotective parents making excuses (for themselves) for underachieving children.

First, regarding John Smoltz...

1. He doesn't make the Inverted W to the degree that Mark Prior did.
2. His timing is much better.
3. He has serious shoulder and elbow problems. That's why he spent time in the bullpen.

The same thing is true of Pedro Martinez.

Second, Clemens was more Inverted W early on in his career at Boston but starting in Toronto moved to more of a Horizontal W model.

Third, if you look at pitchers with extremely long careers, you will not find a single Inverted W. Instead, what you will find are lots of guys who Circle-Up, lots of horizontal Ws, and lots of Ws.

The closest exceptions are Don Drysdale who made the Inverted W but whose career was cut short due to shoulder problems after 15 years and Bob Feller, who had a 4-year hole in the middle of his career due to WWII.

Why would you push something that you don't see in the vast majority (e.g. 95+ percent) of HOF pitchers?

Chris O'Leary

10-09-2007, 01:26 PM

And with respect to major-league baseball, as of April 2006, almost 30% of major-league players came from outside the United States. Which is an indication of at least two things. Baseball is declining as a sport of choice by kids. And those that do participate for the most part do not have the physical tools or skills to advance to the highest levels. I don't have the hard numbers but I believe that something like 80% do not play baseball after 12 or 13 years of age.

All you have to do is attend a little league tryout in your local town to "see" what is happening.

For all of the ballyhoo of travel ball and select teams, the quantity of US-born quality players is on the decline. At least as measured by the competitive standard of who makes it to the major leagues and who does not.

I interpret this differently.

My read is that the best young players are either getting burned out, or seeing their arms destroyed, by...

1. The rise of travel teams.
2. General overuse of the best young pitchers.
2. Over-coaching of young pitchers.

tominct

10-09-2007, 01:32 PM

Tom,

[QUOTE]Let me apologize for perhaps being too harsh. It wasn't my intention. It's just that what I see touched a very raw nerve.

no problem

1. If you are indeed being encouraged to teach your son to make the Inverted W or Inverted L, then I think you are getting bad advice. You do not see the Inverted W or Inverted L in the arm action of great pitchers with long careers. However, you do see it in the arm action of pitchers like Mark Prior and Chris Carpenter who have had continual injury problems.

I do not teach it. What you see is, however, the result of what I have taught.

4. I do not believe that you should follow all of the advice of Dr. Marshall. Instead, I would suggest that you use Greg Maddux as your model.

Fine, but why not someone like Ryan, or Smoltz, or Clemens, or Beckett?

5. In terms of the whole drafting comment, my point is that it's hard to change a pitcher's arm action down the road. As a result, I think it's important that pitchers follow good examples when they are young. In my mind that includes Greg Maddux and Roger Clemens.

Agreed

Chris O'Leary

10-09-2007, 01:39 PM

Fine, but why not someone like Ryan, or Smoltz, or Clemens, or Beckett?

I think Ryan or Clemens would both be good choices because they have both held up over the long run. They both had problem earlier on in their careers but moved to a more mainstream model and were problem-free for most of their careers.

Smoltz had major arm problems in the middle of his career, so I don't think he'd be a good choice.

IMO Beckett hasn't been around long enough for us to be able to say that what he does is safe.

Other young guys who are clones of Maddux, Ryan, and Clemens are...

- Dan Haren
- Tim Lincecum

Jake Patterson

10-09-2007, 01:53 PM

Baseball is declining as a sport of choice by kids. And those that do participate for the most part do not have the physical tools or skills to advance to the highest levels.
Or.... international participation is increasing. The LLI supports this with the number of new charters issued over the recent years.

justthefacts

10-09-2007, 02:10 PM

Or.... international participation is increasing.

Not really. Baseball Japan has lost some of its popularity. The biggest source of foreign-born players i.e. Dominican Republic hasn't changed in terms of environment/participation. What has changed is the increased scouting in foreign countries. Primarily because of the success of foreign players as compared to domestic players. The one nice thing about high-level sports is they are performance driven, at least more so than other activities. In other words the player that can perform gets to play. Which says that either the foreign players have gotten a whole lot better or domestic players have gotten worse (fewer high-quality players) and or combination of both.

The LLI supports this with the number of new charters issued over the recent years.

We are talking about the entire playing population of the United States. We are also talking about the quality of play.

I'm not arguing that it is possible to develop very high levels of capability for a given team/group of players. But this does not necessarily mean the entire playing population has those same capabilities. The numbers just don't make sense in terms of the US maintaining its baseball dominance. If we had more players playing and more players playing a higher level then they should not be the huge increase at the minor league level of foreign-born players. Numbers just don't add up.

My read is that the best young players are either getting burned out, or seeing their arms destroyed, by...

1. The rise of travel teams.
2. General overuse of the best young pitchers.
2. Over-coaching of young pitchers.

"The rise in travel teams" would imply a greater pool of high-level players.

"General overuse of the best young pitchers". Don't think so simply because the overuse of young pitchers is a far more prevalent in foreign countries than it is in the United States. What you would term as overuse others would view as required physical preparation to maximize one's for a potential. Which also means weeding out the pack. And by extension of your injury/overuse hypothesis would mean that they would should be less foreign players available and not more.

"Over-coaching of young pitchers". We have met the enemy and he is you. As in no coaching is better than bad coaching/information.

The burnout argument is pure tear jerk BS.

Evidence from perceptual/cognitive sports examined to date implies that in domains where experts and non-experts are distinguished by domain-specific, information-processing abilities, these skill differences are better accounted for by intense training rather than innate abilities. The logic behind this position is that while certain gross, general traits have been linked to genetic endowment (e.g., intelligence; Bouchard, 1997), the refinement of these traits into domain specific abilities (e.g., pattern recognition, strategic thinking) only occurs after years of intense training. Furthermore, there is no empirical support for the idea that there is a gene that predisposes an athlete to superior information processing that is only manifested in a single domain (e.g., a gene for soccer processing).

According to the “10-year rule,” a 10-year commitment to high levels of training is the minimum requirement to reach the expert level. This “rule” has been supported in music (Ericsson et al., 1993; Hayes, 1981; Sosniak, 1985), mathematics (Gustin, 1985), swimming (Kalinowski, 1985), distance running (Wallingford, 1975), and tennis (Monsaas, 1985). The theory of deliberate practice (Ericsson et al., 1993) extends Simon and Chase's work by suggesting that it was not simply training of any type, but engagement in ‘deliberate practice’ that was necessary for the attainment of expertise. According to Ericsson et al. (1993), deliberate practice activities are forms of training that are not intrinsically motivating, require high levels of effort and attention, and do not lead to immediate social or financial rewards. Under deliberate practice conditions, experts develop specific skills that are required by their domain under conditions of high effort and concentration. The authors suggest that by continually modifying training activities so that optimal amounts of effort and concentration are required, future experts maximize physiological and cognitive adaptations.

Simply stated those who TRUELY want to excel, do (best survive). Whereas the wannabes don't.

scorekeeper

10-09-2007, 02:16 PM

Combine this with the overall decline in athletic capabilities of today's youth generation and you have a prescription for overprotective parents making excuses (for themselves) for underachieving children.

What you quoted is a statement of fact about obesity in children, not an indictment of an overall decline in athletic capabilities of today's youth generation! Those are two very different things.

And with respect to major-league baseball, as of April 2006, almost 30% of major-league players came from outside the United States. Which is an indication of at least two things. Baseball is declining as a sport of choice by kids. And those that do participate for the most part do not have the physical tools or skills to advance to the highest levels. I don't have the hard numbers but I believe that something like 80% do not play baseball after 12 or 13 years of age.

How can it be declining as a sport of choice by kids if it gets all the players for the upper echelons it needs? Perhaps its popularity is declining in this country, but obviously not in every country.

Assuming you mean players from this country for the most part do not have the physical tools or skills to advance to the highest levels, I think you’re way off base. You’re forgetting that only a very small percentage of all players advance to the highest levels, plus you’re assuming that the only criteria for advancement is skill level.

So, rather than 100% of all upper level players being WASPish Americans, now the pool has extended to persons of all races, colors, creeds, ethnicity, and from just about any county of origin. All that means is, the best players from other countries are just as good as the best players from this country.

And what choice of professional sports do 12-13YO’s in countries like the DR, Vz, and the like have, other than Kommie Kickball and baseball? Those kids don’t have basketball, football, tennis, golf, NASCAR, bowling, etc. to take a shot at professionally, not to mention the opportunity to get a higher education. Its like going to a restaurant. If the menu only has 3-4 items on it, that’s what everyone will chose. But give them a menu with 50 items on it, and those 3-4 items will have fewer people ordering them.

Also, many of those players from other countries are willing to work for a much lower salary than players in this country. Don’t you think that a ML team will choose 4 foreign players they can sign for less than what it costs them for 1 American born player, especially of their skills are roughly the same?

All you have to do is attend a little league tryout in your local town to "see" what is happening.

Is that Little League as in Little League, Inc., or it is the generic LL where its anyplace little kids try out for organized ball. And what do you think will be seen if someone does attend a LL tryout?

I suspect that depending on the age, the players won’t play much better than little kids. And?

For all of the ballyhoo of travel ball and select teams, the quantity of US-born quality players is on the decline. At least as measured by the competitive standard of who makes it to the major leagues and who does not.

I beg to differ. IMHO the quality of US-born players is at least as good as ever and probably better, but so is the quality of players all over the world. Try to keep in mind that a ML team only cares about making money, not giving Americans jobs! Its no different than the auto, steel, or electronics industries.

Jake Patterson

10-09-2007, 02:33 PM

Simply stated those who TRUELY want to excel do (best survive) where as the wannabes don't.

On this we agree.

justthefacts

10-09-2007, 02:33 PM

Researchers maintain that it's not just the schools that are dropping the ball when it comes to adequately promoting physical activity among young people: Parents also play a significant role in the problem. By not strictly limiting TV watching, computer and video game use, and consumption of fast food, and not requiring their children to walk more, play outdoors, and participate in organized physical activities, more kids are putting on more pounds, and in many cases, setting themselves up for the risky medical problems.......

It seems to me that anyone who has even the slightest understanding of what it takes to develop physical capabilities would understand that activities such as TV watching, computer and video game use, and consumption of fast food, and not requiring their children to walk more, play outdoors, and that the state organized physical activities COULD POSSIBLY LEAD TO DECREASED PHYSICAL CAPABILITIES. And failure to recognize these potential detractors from physical abilities might possibly explain why there is a decrease in baseball capabilities i.e. those who are in charge of selecting and coaching teams just don't have a clue.

[I]And what choice of professional sports do 12-13YO’s in countries like the DR, Vz, and the like have, other than Kommie Kickball and baseball? Those kids don’t have basketball, football, tennis, golf, NASCAR, bowling, etc. to take a shot at professionally, not to mention the opportunity to get a higher education. Its like going to a restaurant. If the menu only has 3-4 items on it, that’s what everyone will chose. But give them a menu with 50 items on it, and those 3-4 items will have fewer people ordering them.

Also, many of those players from other countries are willing to work for a much lower salary than players in this country. Don’t you think that a ML team will choose 4 foreign players they can sign for less than what it costs them for 1 American born player, especially of their skills are roughly the same?
I]

Thank you for making my point for me. The point being that the more emphasis that you place on developing baseball skills the greater the probability of advancing to the highest levels. Which is the same as saying that in foreign countries the kids focus much more on developing baseball skills than they do in the United States as a percentage of the available baseball population.

And that countries that have a baseball culture such as Dominican Republic, Japan, where there is greater interest in baseball have a greater probability of producing foreign-born players. As opposed to those countries such as England and Europe where activity such as soccer are the activity of choice by young people.

Which simply stated its means that the more skillful players you produce no matter where/what country, the greater the probability those players will be selected in the major-league draft.

I beg to differ. IMHO the quality of US-born players is at least as good as ever and probably better, but so is the quality of players all over the world. Try to keep in mind that a ML team only cares about making money, not giving Americans jobs! Its no different than the auto, steel, or electronics industries.

Makes no sense to me. Major-league teams make money by filling the stadium, getting TV rights, etc.. Filling stadiums and getting TV rights are based upon team/player performance. Best players typically create the best teams which then generates more revenue. No different than auto, steel, or electronics industries i.e. the more skilled the employee the greater the potential for return on investment.

scorekeeper

10-09-2007, 02:40 PM

Not really. Baseball Japan has lost some of its popularity. The biggest source of foreign-born players i.e. Dominican Republic hasn't changed in terms of environment/participation. What has changed is the increased scouting in foreign countries. Primarily because of the success of foreign players as compared to domestic players. The one nice thing about high-level sports is they are performance driven, at least more so than other activities. In other words the player that can perform gets to play. Which says that either the foreign players have gotten a whole lot better or domestic players have gotten worse (fewer high-quality players) and or combination of both.

There’s no chance it can be that foreign players are simply now only getting the opportunities to play, whereas before they had little or no chance at all? Remember, its only been 6o years where American players of color were allowed to play in the ML. For 20 of those years, the Afro-Americans had a difficult enough time, let alone foreign born players. All that’s happening now, is that the pool to draw talent from has steadily expanded.

I'm not arguing that it is possible to develop very high levels of capability for a given team/group of players. But this does not necessarily mean the entire playing population has those same capabilities. The numbers just don't make sense in terms of the US maintaining its baseball dominance. If we had more players playing and more players playing a higher level then they should not be the huge increase at the minor league level of foreign-born players. Numbers just don't add up.

It appears that something sticking in your throat is that the US is losing dominance in yet something else. That’s the way it works when you open up the opportunities to the entire world as opposed to only white America.

"The rise in travel teams" would imply a greater pool of high-level players.

Faulty logic! All it means is, more players are opting to play in venues other than 20-30 league games each year.

"General overuse of the best young pitchers". Don't think so simply because the overuse of young pitchers is a far more prevalent in foreign countries than it is in the United States. What you would term as overuse others would view as required physical preparation to maximize one's for a potential. Which also means weeding out the pack.

Unless you have some kind of empirical data that proves foreign born P’s are overused more than American P’s are, that’s nothing more than an unsubstantiated opinion. Don’t make judgments based on just a few pitchers.

"Over-coaching of young pitchers". We have met the enemy and he is you. As in no coaching is better than bad coaching/information.
The burnout argument is pure tear jerk BS.

I have no idea what you’re talking about here.

Simply stated those who TRUELY want to excel do (best survive) where as the wannabes don't.

Not necessarily true. Sometimes those who survive are simply those who are willing to to put up with the indignities, injuries, and demands others refuse to tolerate.

scorekeeper

10-09-2007, 03:00 PM

It seems to me that anyone who has even the slightest understanding of what it takes to develop physical capabilities would understand that activities such as TV watching, computer and video game use, and consumption of fast food, and not requiring their children to walk more, play outdoors, and that the state organized physical activities COULD POSSIBLY LEAD TO DECREASED PHYSICAL CAPABILITIES. And failure to recognize these potential detractors from physical abilities might possibly explain why there is a decrease in baseball capabilities i.e. those who are in charge of selecting and coaching teams just don't have a clue.

COULD POSSIBLY, might possibly, and possibly explainis not the same thing as absolutely will.

You have yet to offer any proof that there has been a decrease in baseball capabilities.

Thank you for making my point for me. The point being that the more emphasis that you place on developing baseball skills the greater the probability of advancing to the highest levels. Which is the same as saying that in foreign countries the kids focus much more on developing baseball skills than they do in the United States as a percentage of the available baseball population.

?????? The available “baseball population” is the population that plays baseball, not everyone who shows up on the census.

And that countries that have a baseball culture such as Dominican Republic, Japan, where there is greater interest in baseball have a greater probability of producing foreign-born players. As opposed to those countries such as England and Europe where activity such as soccer are the activity of choice by young people.

Which simply stated its means that the more skillful players you produce no matter where/what country, the greater the probability those players will be selected in the major-league draft.

Foreign player, as least as far as I know, aren't subject to the draft!

Makes no sense to me. Major-league teams make money by filling the stadium, getting TV rights, etc.. Filling stadiums and getting TV rights are based upon team/player performance. Best players typically create the best teams which then generates more revenue. No different than auto, steel, or electronics industries i.e. the more skilled the employee the greater the potential for return on investment.

Perhaps that’s true to some degree, but there are plenty of teams that make money because they “share” many of the profits. And there are some organizations that don’t see spending gozillions on players as being worth-while. Who would you sign, the player coming out of college who’s agent wants a $5Mil signing bonus and $2.5Mil a year, or the player from Vz who’s good, but not quite as good and you can get for a $10 Bonus and minimum pay?

When owners pay ridiculous amounts for big names, they have to fill the roster from someplace! Not every ML team is like the Yankees, and I think you’ll see them starting to back off on the bidding wars in the future, even though they made much more than the billion it cost them in player salaries over the last several years.

justthefacts

10-09-2007, 03:12 PM

Foreign player, as least as far as I know, aren't subject to the draft!

You're correct. My use of the word "draft" is incorrect in terms of the signing of all players. Substitute "finding and signing players" for the word "draft". Specific to this discussion I don't think most understand the point I'm trying to make. That point being that if one accepts the concept/premise of the "10 year rule" (what it takes to develop to an expert level of performance), and if one also accepts the premise that there is no inherent physical advantage of foreign players versus domestic players, then those players that are selected and signed are considered by Major league baseball as having the greatest chance of developing into major-league players. And right now almost 50% of minor-league baseball is composed of players not born in the United States.

And I will concede that some number of these form players may be signed simply because of economics and the need to fill rosters. But I also believe based on my own personal experiences, there are an equal number of domestic players who would gladly sign for the minimum given the opportunity to play professional baseball knowing that they had a very slim chance of playing more than one season. All one has to do is look at the independent leagues, i.e. number of players who still have a MLB dream.

I think we've argued this issue to the point of "ad nausea". My only interest is exploring what it takes to develop players to their highest levels. Something that very few people really understand and/or if they do are willing to commit to. Again simply my experiences with working with players.

Chris O'Leary

10-10-2007, 07:52 AM

That point being that if one accepts the concept/premise of the "10 year rule" (what it takes to develop to an expert level of performance), and if one also accepts the premise that there is no inherent physical advantage of foreign players versus domestic players, then those players that are selected and signed are considered by Major league baseball as having the greatest chance of developing into major-league players. And right now almost 50% of minor-league baseball is composed of players not born in the United States.

First, I question the validity of the 10 year rule. One of the best arms I saw in the 2007 draft, a kid named Maurice Bankston, was a converted outfielder. True, he needed work on his finesse pitches (e.g. his curve was a little slurvey). However, his mechanics were close to perfect.

Second, I think you're missing my point when it comes to my point about domestic players. I think the ratio of foreign players is rising due to overcoaching of American kids at young ages. IMO many of the best athletes are either seeing their arms destroyed due to overuse or are playing Lacrosse due to burn-out.

It's not that foreign-born kids have any inherent advantages. Rather, they aren't exposed to our increasingly bad forms of effectively semi-pro "youth" baseball.

deaconspoint

10-10-2007, 02:06 PM

Go to Setpro and read...

I know who is he is Jake. I've been there and I've read. You and TG missed the point. If justthefacts is in fact this Nyman fellow then the guys got some serious issues. I think I'll stick with getting advice from someone who can still use their name in a public forum.

TM

TG Coach

10-10-2007, 08:54 PM

I know who is he is Jake. I've been there and I've read. You and TG missed the point. If justthefacts is in fact this Nyman fellow then the guys got some serious issues. I think I'll stick with getting advice from someone who can still use their name in a public forum.

TM

You can take your advice from Chris. The pros will take it from Nyman. It works for everyone.

StraightGrain11

10-10-2007, 10:09 PM

I think Ryan or Clemens would both be good choices because they have both held up over the long run. They both had problem earlier on in their careers but moved to a more mainstream model and were problem-free for most of their careers.

Do you think this was due more to Ryan's mechanics or his work[out] habbits?

StraightGrain11

10-10-2007, 10:11 PM

Or.... international participation is increasing. The LLI supports this with the number of new charters issued over the recent years.

Could it also be due to the fact that baseball is a "high skill level" sport (as compared to sport like football)?

Go Cardinals

10-10-2007, 10:15 PM

Could it also be due to the fact that baseball is a "high skill level" sport (as compared to sport like football)?

Agreed.....

tominct

10-15-2007, 08:38 PM

Spencer

10-16-2007, 09:16 AM

I wouldn't mess with his arm action. It's going to do what it's going to do but the path the arm follows is a result of how his arm is built and what the rest of the body is doing through the motion.

If you focus on controlling the arm, you lose attention on the rest of the body which is also just as, if not more important.

He opens up very early with his shoulders, unlike Mark Prior (who was often touted as having "perfect mechanics").

http://cache.gettyimages.com/xc/71234350.jpg?v=1&c=NewsMaker&k=2&d=17A4AD9FDB9CF193875DCB1DD8387ABBBAB36B549A9288FE 4E9C89C783688B46

Here, Mark has started rotating his lower half (back leg, hips) while keeping his upper half closed. Most pitchers get between 40-60 degrees of hip/shoulder separation. Your son does not look like he gets any at all.

And Mark Prior has been injured for reasons other than mechanics.

EDIT: Your son is very young though so most of this stuff he probably does not feel happening in his body. I would be cautious about throwing too much at a young age because it can warp his body since he is not close to finished growing. He may not have the capabilities for the flexibility and strength required for the pitching motion yet.

Chris O'Leary

10-16-2007, 09:30 AM

I put this through a color pass in premiere, as well as slowing it down. I think he's out front, we talked about the "Inverted L," and you tell me if he heard me or not, He is still with the stop-short release. We have RTFN and have worked the first stages of the process described therein, but he doesn't want to do it, he wants to pass and pitch! Maybe some hitting. Live. :shrug:

There's less Inverted L in this video, which is good. His timing mostly looks good.

This clip is more like Roger Clemens than the other ones, which were more Chris Carpenter.

I don't see much in the way of stopping short. He leaves his pitching side foot behind on the rubber, rather than bringing his PAS foot and knee forward through the release point as Greg Maddux is doing in this image...

http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Pitching/ImageSequences/GregMaddux_HS_3B_001/Video_Pitching_GregMaddux_3B_001_106.jpg

That may create the real or perceived stopping short.

Chris O'Leary

10-16-2007, 09:34 AM

I wouldn't mess with his arm action. It's going to do what it's going to do but the path the arm follows is a result of how his arm is built and what the rest of the body is doing through the motion.

If you focus on controlling the arm, you lose attention on the rest of the body which is also just as, if not more important.

He opens up very early with his shoulders, unlike Mark Prior (who was often touted as having "perfect mechanics").

http://cache.gettyimages.com/xc/71234350.jpg?v=1&c=NewsMaker&k=2&d=17A4AD9FDB9CF193875DCB1DD8387ABBBAB36B549A9288FE 4E9C89C783688B46

Here, Mark has started rotating his lower half (back leg, hips) while keeping his upper half closed. Most pitchers get between 40-60 degrees of hip/shoulder separation. Your son does not look like he gets any at all.

And Mark Prior has been injured for reasons other than mechanics.

Mark Prior may have the worst mechanics in all of recorded history. The guy who said Mark Prior had perfect mechanics is Tom House. He's the same person who designed Mark Prior's mechanics, so he's not exactly an objective observer.

Having said that, I agree that hip/shoulder separation is critical. It, rather than arm action, is what enables Tim Lincecum to throw so hard.

http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Pitching/Images/Examples/Example_HipsRotatingBeforeShoulders_TimLincecum_20 07_035.jpg

http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Pitching/Images/Examples/Example_HipsRotatingBeforeShoulders_TimLincecum_20 07_020.jpg

Notice the 90 differential Lincecum achieves. That's why such a small guy can still throw so hard.

StraightGrain11

10-16-2007, 10:01 AM

That is also a very mechanically advanced motion that NO 9 year-old should EVER be thinking about because their body simply isn't coordinated (mature) enough to do it - regardless of talent.

tominct

10-16-2007, 10:35 AM

Mark Prior may have the worst mechanics in all of recorded history. The guy who said Mark Prior had perfect mechanics is Tom House. He's the same person who designed Mark Prior's mechanics, so he's not exactly an objective observer.

Having said that, I agree that hip/shoulder separation is critical. It, rather than arm action, is what enables Tim Lincecum to throw so hard.

http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Pitching/Images/Examples/Example_HipsRotatingBeforeShoulders_TimLincecum_20 07_035.jpg

http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Pitching/Images/Examples/Example_HipsRotatingBeforeShoulders_TimLincecum_20 07_020.jpg

We have talked about this, the hip-shoulder separation, (the stretch,) but I really think he is going to have top mature somewhat, both physically and mentally before he is able to make significant progress on this front. We are talking about a kid who would still like to go outside and play Star Wars, or some game out in the woods just as soon as go out and work on his hip-shoulder separation. He swims three nights a week and has piano lessons one, I like to give him some off time too! I struggle with to what extent I should drag him out and make him work and how much i need to let himm make a lot of those decisions. I have erred on the side of caution most recently, letting him set the schedule. As a result he doesn't work at his game (defense or offense) as much as Daddy woudl like, and perhaps that has stunted his growth on the field a bit, perhaps the opposite is true, but he still has a big love for the game and is a happy little boy. And in any case, I think we are making progress.

Spencer

10-16-2007, 10:59 AM

Chris, I don't know why I didn't think of Tim Lincecum as he is a great example of hip/shoulder separation and one of my favorite players. What would you say is wrong with Mark Prior's mechanics (edit: I just saw in your sig that you have a blog... I'll read that)?

And to Tom, for the love of the game :D

Chris O'Leary

10-16-2007, 03:07 PM

We have talked about this, the hip-shoulder separation, (the stretch,) but I really think he is going to have top mature somewhat, both physically and mentally before he is able to make significant progress on this front. We are talking about a kid who would still like to go outside and play Star Wars, or some game out in the woods just as soon as go out and work on his hip-shoulder separation.

I agree completely.

I was just trying to reinforce someone else's point and the general idea that you need to throw with the entire body and not the arm.

My 12 YO son's hip/shoulder separation isn't what it could be, but I'm not worried about it right now since it's gradually getting better.

BCBomber

11-19-2007, 10:01 AM

I know this topic is a month old, but I'm assuming you're still following it. I've coached 9, 9, 10, and now 11U select ball the last few years and think he looks pretty good. He's got a good leg lift, awesome dynamic balance, good arm motion, and a great kick/finish. He also maintains his height well.

If you're looking for some off season work to get ready for spring, here's what I'd have him do.

1. The "L" doesn't worry me because the ball ends up in a good position. What I would like to see are "equal and opposite elbows". This means that the glove arm should mirror the throwing arm. Right now the glove arm breaks down. Have him work on allowing the glove arm to mirror the throwing arm after separation.

2. I'd have him work on a longer stride and release. The "towel drill" is awesome. Double a hand towel over and grip it with the 2 middle fingers of his throwing hand. You take a knee in front of him and hold your glove out to serve as a target. (If you're not around, he can use a doorknob, chair, couch, etc.) Have him start from a full stride position. (Full stride with front foot pointed at target, torso vertical and balanced over his center, arms equal and opposite with the glove held out in front palm up.) From this position he uses a throwing motion to "pop" the target with the towel and finish with his kick. After 10 reps he can do the same with a full delivery. This drill will reinforce stride, extension at release, and even a small wrist pop. You'll have to play with your distance from his front foot. Also make sure he is "moving his chest to his glove" and not "pulling his glove to his chest".

The only other thing is to make sure he has practice time where he is encouraged to throw HARD. Once he's comfortable throwing HARD in practice, he can start to throw HARD in 0-2 counts and eventually trust himself in any count.

Hope it helps. Let me know if I can help in any other way.

Bryce

Baseball gLove

11-19-2007, 12:43 PM

Chris, I don't see the kid hiking the elbow for an L. It looks more like a circular motion or an attempt at one. I could understand your concern if he was purposely jacking up the elbow.

Chris O'Leary

11-19-2007, 12:54 PM

Chris, I don't see the kid hiking the elbow for an L. It looks more like a circular motion or an attemp at one. I could understand your concern if he was purposely jacking up the elbow.

It's most obvious in this (older) side view...

http://youtube.com/watch?v=d9F7EG3ErLU

As we established later on in the thread, his more recent mechanics are better.

tominct

11-20-2007, 08:18 AM

1. The "L" doesn't worry me because the ball ends up in a good position. What I would like to see are "equal and opposite elbows". This means that the glove arm should mirror the throwing arm. Right now the glove arm breaks down. Have him work on allowing the glove arm to mirror the throwing arm after separation.

2. I'd have him work on a longer stride and release. The "towel drill" is awesome. Double a hand towel over and grip it with the 2 middle fingers of his throwing hand. You take a knee in front of him and hold your glove out to serve as a target. (If you're not around, he can use a doorknob, chair, couch, etc.) Have him start from a full stride position. (Full stride with front foot pointed at target, torso vertical and balanced over his center, arms equal and opposite with the glove held out in front palm up.) From this position he uses a throwing motion to "pop" the target with the towel and finish with his kick. After 10 reps he can do the same with a full delivery. This drill will reinforce stride, extension at release, and even a small wrist pop. You'll have to play with your distance from his front foot. Also make sure he is "moving his chest to his glove" and not "pulling his glove to his chest".

The only other thing is to make sure he has practice time where he is encouraged to throw HARD. Once he's comfortable throwing HARD in practice, he can start to throw HARD in 0-2 counts and eventually trust himself in any count.

Hope it helps. Let me know if I can help in any other way.

Bryce

Thanks. We have tlaked about the front side many times and he has improved in this area, but yes it omst certainly still needs work.