Derek Jeter Overrated?

[3arod13]

I know you Jeter lovers will blast me for this, but be realistic.

As voted by his peers, Jeter was voted the most overrated player in baseball.

Now think of it this way. If Jeter started out with and was still playing for Kansas City, Cleveland, Detroit, etc., and performed with those teams as he did with the Yankees, he would be considered at average+ shortstop. However, starting out with and being a Yankee, put him in a larger light.

Now again, before you post your blasts, be realistic.

Oh, and yes, I'm a Yankee fan...not a Red Sox fan.

Standing by for my punishment from you Jeter lovers.

[philipthegreat]

I know you Jeter lovers will blast me for this, but be realistic.

As voted by his peers, Jeter was voted the most overrated player in baseball.

Now think of it this way. If Jeter started out with and was still playing for Kansas City, Cleveland, Detroit, etc., and performed with those teams as he did with the Yankees, he would be considered at average+ shortstop. However, starting out with and being a Yankee, put him in a larger light.

Now again, before you post your blasts, be realistic.

Oh, and yes, I'm a Yankee fan...not a Red Sox fan.

Standing by for my punishment from you Jeter lovers.

basiclly you're imlying that he was like Phil Rizzuto. :shrug:

Yes Jeter is overated perhaps the most overated player right now but some of that has to do with the fact he is a good possibly great player and the fact that he brought four world series titles to new york

[DoubleX]

I agree that playing in the spotlight in New York, winning 4 titles, and being an otherwise very smooth guy, has led to Jeter being overrated, but to call him an "average" shortstop is grossly underrating him. Consider this, Jeter has more hits at this point in his career than Pete Rose had at the same point - that's not too shabby at all. Jeter is well on his way to some very rare career numbers in both hits and runs scored. His 123 career OPS+, even in this inflated era, is still very good historically for a SS, and he's one of just 8 shortstops since 1901 to have an OPS+ of over 160 in a season (1999). Jeter also has won 3 adjusted batting titles, meaning that if not for stadium effects that really favored other players in those years, Jeter would have won 3 batting titles. He also had a very strong argument for being the AL MVP in both 1999 and 2006 as he led the AL in Win Shares both of those years (no small feat for a shortstop, historically). He also has great instincts on the bases and seems to have a flair for the spectacular.

Overrated, certainly, but you've gone way too far in the other direction by calling him average.

[3arod13]

I agree that playing in the spotlight in New York, winning 4 titles, and being an otherwise very smooth guy, has led to Jeter being overrated, but to call him an "average" shortstop is grossly underrating him. Consider this, Jeter has more hits at this point in his career than Pete Rose had at the same point - that's not too shabby at all. Jeter is well on his way to some very rare career numbers in both hits and runs scored. His 123 career OPS+, even in this inflated era, is still very good historically for a SS, and he's one of just 8 shortstops since 1901 to have an OPS+ of over 160 in a season (1999). Jeter also has won 3 adjusted batting titles, meaning that if not for stadium effects that really favored other players in those years, Jeter would have won 3 batting titles. He also had a very strong argument for being the AL MVP in both 1999 and 2006 as he led the AL in Win Shares both of those years (no small feat for a shortstop, historically). He also has great instincts on the bases and seems to have a flair for the spectacular.

Overrated, certainly, but you've gone way too far in the other direction by calling him average.

Ok, well said. I agree. He is much better than an Average+ shortstop. Don't get me wrong, I like Jeter too. However, we had a discussion at work the other day about this and it got pretty heated. I do like Jeter and would want him on my team, whether a Yankee or not.

I thought the replies would have been much worse. Great comments and I agree with you both. Tony

[3arod13]

Acutally, the thread should have been titled:

Derek Jeter is overrated?

? vice !

[DoubleX]

Acutally, the thread should have been titled:

Derek Jeter is overrated?

? vice !

I'll retitle the thread.

There's no question in my mind that Jeter is overrated and that if he came up with someone like the Royals, he would not be as highly regarded as he is (but then again, if he came up with the Royals, he likely would have long departed for a lucrative free agent deal, perhaps with the Yankees even; there's also the possibility that another team would have changed his position years ago, not tolerating his defense as the Yankees have).

But that doesn't mean that Jeter isn't a great player, he's just not the demigod that lots of Yankee fans and the media make him out to be. He's a bonafide Hall of Famer in my book and I'd probably already rank him in my top 10 all time shortstops (though he'd be around 9 or 10).


I thought the replies would have been much worse. Great comments and I agree with you both.

Well, the day is young. This is the kind of topic where there can be some heated replies. But then again, it's also the kind of conversation we've had like a million times on BBF, so people might just be tired of it.

[KCGHOST]

There's no doubt that Jeter is overrated by his acolytes and faithful supporters, but this doesn't change the fact he is a superb player.

[TonyStarks]

I think I posted something about this maybe about a year ago.

Where I found the player that perfectly compared to Derek Jeter...and that player was Barry Larkin.

Their numbers almost pretty much the same, but Barry had lost some time due to a few injuries. 2180 Games for Larkin, to Jeter's 1835.


Jeter / Larkin
Avg: .317 / .295
OBP: .388 / .371
OPS: 123 / 116

HR: 195 / 198
RBI: 933 / 960
2B : 386 / 441
3B : 54 / 76
R : 1379 / 1329
BB: 761 / 939
K : 1291 / 817
SB: 264 / 379

DJ's got 12 years under his belt and some more to go, while Barry logged I believe 17-18 years. I think all at SS, I don't recall him moving to another position either. Correct me if I'm wrong.

FYI: I just did some more checking and Jeter also had very similar numbers to another fellow Yankee. Tony Lazzeri.

[philipthegreat]

Ok, well said. I agree. He is much better than an Average+ shortstop. Don't get me wrong, I like Jeter too. However, we had a discussion at work the other day about this and it got pretty heated. I do like Jeter and would want him on my team, whether a Yankee or not.

I thought the replies would have been much worse. Great comments and I agree with you both. Tony

where you talking about me too?

[DoubleX]

I think I posted something about this maybe about a year ago.

Where I found the player that perfectly compared to Derek Jeter...and that player was Barry Larkin.

Their numbers almost pretty much the same, but Barry had lost some time due to a few injuries. 2180 Games for Larkin, to Jeter's 1835.

I think I might one day have Jeter ranked higher, but it will be because of longevity and consistency. Based pure skill at SS, I think I have to go with Larkin. Keeping in mind that Jeter has yet to have a decline, as hitters they are very similar and I'd probably say that Jeter is a slight notch better. But Larkin was a much better defensive player, a legitimately very good defensive SS, and for as good as Jeter is on the bases, Larkin was even better. What really hurts Larkin is all the time he missed in his career. If he could have stayed healthy, I think Jeter would really have his work cut out for him in trying to catch Larkin and I'd have a hard time putting Larkin out of the top 5 all time at SS (right now I have him around 6th or 7th).

Alan Trammell is another good comparison. Jeter has the edge as a hitter and baserunner, but Trammell, like Larkin has a good edge defensively.
In my current SS rankings, I have Larkin decidedly ahead of Jeter, and it's very close between Jeter and Trammell, and I'm probably leaning towards Jeter today. I'm pretty sure that at some point I will have Jeter ahead for certain.

EDIT: According to baseball-reference.com, Jeter's 10 most comparable batters are:

1) Ray Durham
2) Arky Vaughan
3) Bill Madlock
4) Bill Dickey
5) Barry Larkin
6) Tony Lazzeri
7) Mickey Cochrane
8) Bobby Doerr
9) Alan Trammell
10) Alvin Dark

You have a few middle to lower run Hall of Famers in there, and a couple more who should be in (Larkin and Trammell), but it's not an overly impressive list, especially considering that Ray Durham leads it. Though, I would caution putting much stock in this as none of these players are rated that similar.

Also, here's the list of 10 most similar batters through age 32:

1) Roberto Alomar
2) Ryne Sandberg
3) Frankie Frisch
4) Arky Vaughan
5) Alan Trammell
6) Joe Torre
7) Bobby Doerr
8) Ivan Rodriguez
9) Pete Rose
10) Charlie Gehringer

1-10, this is a more impressive list, IMO, but again, no one is particularly rated that similar.

The lesson of these lists though, IMO, is that Jeter is a very good player who is certainly on a Hall of Fame track regardless of what you think about him. But it also shows that he's probably not among the truly elite, top tier Hall of Famers, at least in terms of ability and production, but that based just on production and ability, he's more like a solid middle-area Hall of Famer, and there's nothing wrong with that.

[Yankeefan90]

I think Jeter is some what overrated. Granted if he came up with the Royals, Tigers, or some of those other bad teams of the late 90's, then no he would not be a great SS. If he came up with the Red Sox then I think Jeter would be considered a good SS. I really think when Jeter retires, the current Red Sox will say the samething about Jeter that the old Red Sox said about Phil Rizzuto. Just my opinion really.

[dl4060]

Overrated? Yes. First ballot? No doubt.

[RubeBaker]

As a defensive player, yes very much so. As a hitter, no way. They guy has a realistic shot at 4,000 hits, joining only Pete Rose and Ty Cobb.

[pablo1]

i wouldnt say he is overrated