Tom Glavine

[milladrive]

Before burning Glavine at the stake -- as we almost did last year to Beltran -- let's remember that the guy gave us five full years as one of the more reliable and consistent Tom-Terrific Met pitchers. Not to mention, the "Disabled List" pitch was never in his repertoire. A real workhorse of quite possibly the most professional demeanor I've ever seen.

Say what we will, but when he put on that Mets uniform, he was a Met, not a Brave (anyone with info about how he pitched against his former team, feel free to share). I, for one, was glad to have him. This was most likely going to be his final year in NY regardless of yesterday's performance, but I think we should see the bigger picture and not crucify him for a single pressure failure. People fail, even future Hall of Famers, and sadly, sometimes those failures come at the worst possible moments.

Again, I point out, the season is 162 games long, and it takes an entire organization to win or lose. */me looks at thread about who should be fired and laughs at the all of the above option*

I think any person loyal to the blue and orange should be grateful for all Tom Glavine gave us during his tenure. I applaud him.

Thank you, Tom.

[NYMets523]

My feelings are the polar opposite.

[metfan13]

My feelings are the polar opposite.

And shockingly enough I agree with you.

[milladrive]

Everyone's certainly entitled to their opinions...

...but neither one of those statements says a single thing.

[NYMets523]

I could go into more depth. However, I have too much to do and not enough time. Perhaps later tonight I will be able to.

[metfan13]

Everyone's certainly entitled to their opinions...

...but neither one of those statements says a single thing.


I think we are saying we have the polar opposite opinion to you.

As for failing. Failure is one thing. Even if Maine had had Glavine's performance to end the seaosn Saturday I could have accepted it as growing pains for a still young pitcher.

But I'm pretty certain that Glavine's performance may be the worst ever for a Hall of Fame pitcher in a game of this importance. Especially a HoFer who until the last couple of games didn't seem as though he'd lost it. It really was pitiful.

[NYMets523]

I hate Glavine.

First and most obvious of all, he's a Brave. I don't care what he's wearing. I always see him in a Braves uniform.

He only came here because Atlanta was done with him and we offered the most money. He never loved the Mets or NY or wanted to be here. He just went where the money was.

He joined Leiter and Franco in getting Bobby Valentine fired.

He came up big in 2 of 3 games in the post season in 2006. In 2006 off-season, he wanted to go back to Atlanta. Instead of going there for a cheap offer he went back to where the money was.

In his last 4 starts this season, he was horrific. He had something like a 14 or 10 ERA in those 4 games and the Mets lost all of them.

Before his final start, the Mets had all the momentum in the world. They got the juices flowing in a blow out, an absolute gem by Maine (one of the best pitching performances in franchise history), the Phillies lost to tie with us, and we had that big brawl.

I remember Dalkowski posting something to the effect that who ever had a big lead/defecit early would determine who won in the Mets and Phillies games. If the Phillie started the game and saw the Mets ahead 7-0, they're under pressure. Instead of got out there and saw us down 7 runs. All they needed to do was count the outs.

All Glavine had to do was keep us in the game before the Phillies started. He ends up turning out the worst performance of his entire career. He got one out on a fielder's choice. He never retired anyone after that. He's a veteran, he should have given us a quality game and he did the worst possible thing. He gave the Phillies all the confidence in the world and sucked the entire life force out of Shea Stadium. A lot of this collapse lies on his shoulders. Pedro came through strong despite the L. Perez had a quality game when they needed one. Maine had a brilliant start to keep the season alive. I can't put too much on Humber and Pelfrey because they're inexperienced.

What he said after the game just showed how much he cares. He said he was disappointed but not devastated. He said he wouldn't have done anything differently. I'm sorry, but you killed the season and gave them no chance of winning. You have to be devastated. I don't see how he could have the balls to say he wouldn't have done anything differently. He gave up 7 runs, 5 hits, 2 walks, made a throwing error, and hit the pitcher!

Absolute disgrace. I would love for him to retire and have his career end on that sour note. But I would also love for him to crawl back to the Braves and see the Mets destroy him like he did their hopes for a post-season this year.

[GIANT]

Glavine has been a fine pitcher throughout his career. He has been a professional both on and off the field. Unfortunately, the operative words "has been" ring true when you look at his tenure with the Mets. He is no more than a six inning pitcher, when he has his control, the umpire gives him the corners and quest track is inoperable. He is just one of a roster full of "quick fixes" the Mets have employed sacrificing amateur draft picks and trading what little talent they had in minor leagues for veteran players many of whom are either past their prime or spend time on the disabled list.

A fresh approach is needed. The Diamonbacks, Angels, Tigers and Rockies have all recently improved their contender status by utilizing the amateur draft. It's time for the Mets to follow the same blue print. It's not copyrighted.

[NYMets523]

You're "The Mets are just making quick fixes. They should be the D-Backs, Angels, Tigers, and Rockies and use the draft" posts are getting really old.

[GIANT]

You're "The Mets are just making quick fixes. They should be the D-Backs, Angels, Tigers, and Rockies and use the draft" posts are getting really old.

Your entitled to your opinion. Unfortunately, you seemingly have a problem when someone disagrees with you.

[milladrive]

I hate Glavine.

First and most obvious of all, he's a Brave. I don't care what he's wearing. I always see him in a Braves uniform.

He only came here because Atlanta was done with him and we offered the most money. He never loved the Mets or NY or wanted to be here. He just went where the money was.

He joined Leiter and Franco in getting Bobby Valentine fired.

He came up big in 2 of 3 games in the post season in 2006. In 2006 off-season, he wanted to go back to Atlanta. Instead of going there for a cheap offer he went back to where the money was.

In his last 4 starts this season, he was horrific. He had something like a 14 or 10 ERA in those 4 games and the Mets lost all of them.

Before his final start, the Mets had all the momentum in the world. They got the juices flowing in a blow out, an absolute gem by Maine (one of the best pitching performances in franchise history), the Phillies lost to tie with us, and we had that big brawl.

I remember Dalkowski posting something to the effect that who ever had a big lead/defecit early would determine who won in the Mets and Phillies games. If the Phillie started the game and saw the Mets ahead 7-0, they're under pressure. Instead of got out there and saw us down 7 runs. All they needed to do was count the outs.

All Glavine had to do was keep us in the game before the Phillies started. He ends up turning out the worst performance of his entire career. He got one out on a fielder's choice. He never retired anyone after that. He's a veteran, he should have given us a quality game and he did the worst possible thing. He gave the Phillies all the confidence in the world and sucked the entire life force out of Shea Stadium. A lot of this collapse lies on his shoulders. Pedro came through strong despite the L. Perez had a quality game when they needed one. Maine had a brilliant start to keep the season alive. I can't put too much on Humber and Pelfrey because they're inexperienced.

What he said after the game just showed how much he cares. He said he was disappointed but not devastated. He said he wouldn't have done anything differently. I'm sorry, but you killed the season and gave them no chance of winning. You have to be devastated. I don't see how he could have the balls to say he wouldn't have done anything differently. He gave up 7 runs, 5 hits, 2 walks, made a throwing error, and hit the pitcher!

Absolute disgrace. I would love for him to retire and have his career end on that sour note. But I would also love for him to crawl back to the Braves and see the Mets destroy him like he did their hopes for a post-season this year.

Yeah, follow the money. What a novel concept in this capitalist US of A. I'd never heard that one before.

The rest of your post merely points out how immediately disappointed you are by the historic collapse capped off by yesterday's loss. Did you "hate" Glavine before his final four starts? Be honest now. That's a lotta hate to possess every fifth day for a whole five seasons. Sounds personal, and reminds me of a lotta the stuff posted about Beltran last October.

Anyone know how Glavine pitched against the Braves in five seasons?

My post was about the big picture. Five years. More innings than any other Met pitcher in those five years. Professional demeanor. Never hurt. Rarely fell apart after an opposing rally or big hit. Sum up Glavine's tenure with the Mets, and it was indeed a success. Can't debate fact.

I'll say nothing more about it here, other than natually, I'll be rooting for the Mets to knock him outta the box if he comes back next year with another team. But that's because I'm a Mets fan and wish for them to beat all opposing pitchers.


Your entitled to your opinion. Unfortunately, you seemingly have a problem when someone disagrees with you.

I tend to agree.

But we're all Met fans here, and we're all a little upset this week.

[NYMets523]

Your entitled to your opinion. Unfortunately, you seemingly have a problem when someone disagrees with you.

I have no problem with your opinion. It just seems like that is all you are contributing.


The rest of your post merely points out how immediately disappointed you are by the historic collapse capped off by yesterday's loss. Did you "hate" Glavine before his final four starts? Be honest now. That's a lotta hate to possess every fifth day for a whole five seasons. Sounds personal, and reminds me of a lotta the stuff posted about Beltran last October.
I never liked him. Never. I always liked Chipper Jones and John Smoltz more than Glavine.


Anyone know how Glavine pitched against the Braves in five seasons?[quote]
4-11 with a 5.15 ERA

[quote]My post was about the big picture. Five years. More innings than any other Met pitcher in those five years. Professional demeanor. Never hurt. Rarely fell apart after an opposing rally or big hit. Sum up Glavine's tenure with the Mets, and it was indeed a success. Can't debate fact.
Who was he competing against in those years for those honors? Steve Trachsel? Jae Seo? Kris Benson? Al Leiter?

[NYMets523]

EDIT: Double Post

[JohnCropp]

Glavine is a Brave.

His family still lives near Atlanta and the radio broadcasters still talk about them as if he is a Brave on vacation.

He worked hard as a Met because he is a professional. He would have worked just as hard for anybody else.

I think he slowed up a bit after he got his 300th and that as much as anything cost the Mets the pennant. I'm not saying he's to blame, but he's as responisble as Willie, Omar, the bullpen, Reyes, Delgado, etc.

His OUTing (as opposed to inning) yesterday was a disappointing end to his Mets career and I hope that Omar and the Mets see it as that as well.

Thanks for everything, Tom.

See ya in Atlanta.

[Mr. Met]

Truthfully, I was hoping his Met career would've been better than it was. He did serve a role in the rebuilding process but now that role is over. He's a classy guy and I wish him the best.

[GIANT]

I have no problem with your opinion. It just seems like that is all you are contributing.



Everyone should feel free to contribute that's the whole point of this forum. I have already told you I disagree with you on this issue. Your entitled to your opinion and I'm entitled to mine.

[milladrive]

4-11 with a 5.15 ERA

Reeeally. Hmm. Didn't realize it was that poor. Learn sump'm new every day.


Who was he competing against in those years for those honors? Steve Trachsel? Jae Seo? Kris Benson? Al Leiter?

I know what'cha mean, but "competing" is probably not the word to use when one is discussing personal accomplishments. In other words, Trachsel played no part in Glavine's never going DL. Seo had nothing to do with Tom's professionalism. Etc.

[GIANT]

[QUOTE=NYMets523;1016781]I hate Glavine.

He joined Leiter and Franco in getting Bobby Valentine fired.

Valentine was fired in 2002. Glavine was not a Met until 2003. Art Howe was the manager.

[NYMets523]

In the off-season.

[scott1965]

Glavine is a Brave.

His family still lives near Atlanta and the radio broadcasters still talk about them as if he is a Brave on vacation.

He worked hard as a Met because he is a professional. He would have worked just as hard for anybody else.

I think he slowed up a bit after he got his 300th and that as much as anything cost the Mets the pennant. I'm not saying he's to blame, but he's as responisble as Willie, Omar, the bullpen, Reyes, Delgado, etc.

His OUTing (as opposed to inning) yesterday was a disappointing end to his Mets career and I hope that Omar and the Mets see it as that as well.

Thanks for everything, Tom.

See ya in Atlanta.


Glavine was bashed by the sportswriters today for being too casual about the loss. He acted like it was "just something that happens". And I have to agree. He should have been angry and disappointed for the way he pitched, but he more or less had the attitude, "Oh well...that's just the way it is."

He's better off in Atlanta with an attitude like that.

[NYMets523]

He was disappointed and he said he wasn't devastated and it wasn't something to be devastated about. The truth is it was.

[Rocket Fan Man]

I have no problem with your opinion. It just seems like that is all you are contributing.


I never liked him. Never. I always liked Chipper Jones and John Smoltz more than Glavine.

[quote]Anyone know how Glavine pitched against the Braves in five seasons?[quote]
4-11 with a 5.15 ERA


Who was he competing against in those years for those honors? Steve Trachsel? Jae Seo? Kris Benson? Al Leiter?





I have no problem with your opinion. It just seems like that is all you are contributing.


I never liked him. Never. I always liked Chipper Jones and John Smoltz more than Glavine.

[quote]Anyone know how Glavine pitched against the Braves in five seasons?[quote]
4-11 with a 5.15 ERA


Who was he competing against in those years for those honors? Steve Trachsel? Jae Seo? Kris Benson? Al Leiter?


************************************************** ***************
************************************************** ***************


Mussina is younger than Glavine so it's not a fair comparison. Glavine's 1st half numbers are bad mostly because he got bombed by the Tigers and Yankees in 2 games.

The thing with Mussina is he was never a great pitcher like Glavine, Clemens, Maddux, etc. He would have to go to the NL to do it, but what team would want a 40 year old just so he could accomplish a personal goal? He's a career AL pitcher so there is no NL team that he would want him to come back and get it with them.

NYMets523....... I think you need a hug from your mom or something.
You said Glavine was a "great pitcher like Clemens and Maddux"
The quote above is what you wrote from the thread "The next 300 game
winner" you are post #86
If your team lost and got a bad break except it and move on sh*t happens you gotta take the good with the bad. It's called "Man Up" not complain like a little girl...... Go find your moma!:crazy

[NYMets523]

Keyword there is WAS. And just because I think he was a great pitcher doesn't mean I have to like him. Clemens was a great pitcher and I hate him.

[NYMets523]

Article by Mike Vaccaro from the Post on the Mets' apathy. Here's the excerpt on Glavine:

Sometimes, they were dismissed as "typical Mets fans," the kind who always keep an ear to the ground, waiting for the other sneaker to drop. Only this time, it turns out, those fans were really on to something. There really was a huge abscess where this team's soul should have been, a rotting and rotted core.Tom Glavine summed that up perfectly Sunday, after his thanks-for-stopping-by nine-batter, one-out cameo. Asked if he was "devastated," Glavine opted for the less-damning adjective "disappointed," then thought it necessary to lecture on all the things in life that could truly be defined as "devastating."

And all that did was confirm that Glavine, like too many Mets, doesn't get it. You weren't devastated? Maybe that explains why the Braves won only one title in 14 years of National League dominance. Even if you aren't devastated - which is incredible - you'd better say you are. You'd better throw the fans a scrap.

[BoofBonser26]

Wow.

Listen to milladrive. He has the perspective you need.

I know the collapse was awful. But one more win, AT ANY POINT DURING THE SEASON, would result in y'all jumping up and down and calling this a great Mets team.

It took the entire team to build up a lead, and the entire team to loose.

This reminds me of the crucifixion of Jose Mesa by Indians fans after '97. Yes, he choked in the worst possible moment, literally. But he helped the Tribe reach the postseason in '95, '96, and '97, and I'll remember and thank him for that, too.

Every player gives you good and bad. Remember that.

[Matty]

Glavine's tenure with the Mets (61-56) wasn't much better than Steve Traschel's (66-59). He pitched nothing at all like he did when he was with the Braves. His best seasons with the Mets (2005-6?) compares with his worst season with the Braves (1999: 14-11, 235 IP) after his first few years.

There were a few 300G winners who took a few elections to get into the HOF and I hope the voters remember Glavine's chokes when it comes time to vote on him for the HOF.

[metfan13]

Glavine's tenure with the Mets (61-56) wasn't much better than Steve Traschel's (66-59). He pitched nothing at all like he did when he was with the Braves. His best seasons with the Mets (2005-6?) compares with his worst season with the Braves (1999: 14-11, 235 IP) after his first few years.

There were a few 300G winners who took a few elections to get into the HOF and I hope the voters remember Glavine's chokes when it comes time to vote on him for the HOF.

Actually Trachsel's record is better. And he played on worse teams.

[NYMets523]

I guess we should have re-signed Trachsel over Glavine this year. Maybe we would have made the playoffs :crazy

[BoofBonser26]

I guess we should have re-signed Trachsel over Glavine this year. Maybe we would have made the playoffs :crazy

You people are absurd. You need a long off-season to gain some perspective.

[NYMets523]

I was kidding. Hence that crazy smiley. I hated Trachsel's guts as well.

BTW, in this city, things are different. You could be great but if you choke when it matters the most, you're hated. Especially if you choke in a way that would make a bum like Jeff Weaver shake his head. And your choke completed the biggest collapse in baseball history. We may need some perspective on his Mets career. However, his last 4 starts are a very large scar on his Mets career. We'll never forget them. Never.

[BoofBonser26]

I was kidding. Hence that crazy smiley. I hated Trachsel's guts as well.

BTW, in this city, things are different. You could be great but if you choke when it matters the most, you're about as loved as diarrhea. Especially if you did it in a way that would make a bum like Jeff Weaver shake his head.

Then NYC needs some perspective.

[cbenson5]

Glavine's tenure with the Mets (61-56) wasn't much better than Steve Traschel's (66-59). He pitched nothing at all like he did when he was with the Braves. His best seasons with the Mets (2005-6?) compares with his worst season with the Braves (1999: 14-11, 235 IP) after his first few years.

There were a few 300G winners who took a few elections to get into the HOF and I hope the voters remember Glavine's chokes when it comes time to vote on him for the HOF.

Hopefully they remember the way he choked in game 6 of the 95 World Series.

He was 37 years old when he signed with the Mets. Did you expect him to pitch as well as he did in his prime with the Braves?
He averaged over 200 innings a year with an ERA below league average from age 37 to 41. That's just terrible.

[AznInvasion]

Please send Glaving home to ATL. He'll pitch a great deal better because ATL always seems to crush him. Glavine would also be more comfortable here. I dunno if we have the finances for him but I'd love to see him return.

[metfan13]

Then NYC needs some perspective.

I have perspective.

From my perspective NOTHING, not one inning, not one pitch Glavine made while with the Braves is relevent.

As a METS PITCHER, the ONLY thing I care about, he was a mediocre pitcher, with a record worse than Steve Trachsel who totally choked when it mattered most.

Those are facts. Anything referencing his Hall of Fame level pitching with Atlanta is window dressing in this discussion.

[NYMets523]

Hopefully they remember the way he choked in game 6 of the 95 World Series.

We never saw any kind of gutsy performance in a big spot. Never. We saw utter collapse in a big spot though.

[BoofBonser26]

Hopefully they remember the way he choked in game 6 of the 95 World Series.

He was 37 years old when he signed with the Mets. Did you expect him to pitch as well as he did in his prime with the Braves?
He averaged over 200 innings a year with an ERA below league average from age 37 to 41. That's just terrible.


I have perspective.

From my perspective NOTHING, not one inning, not one pitch Glavine made while with the Braves is relevent.

As a METS PITCHER, the ONLY thing I care about, he was a mediocre pitcher, with a record worse than Steve Trachsel who totally choked when it mattered most.

Those are facts. Anything referencing his Hall of Fame level pitching with Atlanta is window dressing in this discussion.
See the quote above yours.

[metfan13]

See the quote above yours.

I saw that. And read it. Still doesn't mean he wasn't an average pitcher who pitched horribly when most needed.

[NYMets523]

We don't care what he did as a Brave.

[BoofBonser26]

I saw that. And read it. Still doesn't mean he wasn't an average pitcher who pitched horribly when most needed.


We don't care what he did as a Brave.
I'll bow out here, since I don't have anything else to add, but I want to make sure y'all realize Glavine pitched in more than one game for you. He gave you better than league average production at the twilight of his career. Sure, he wasn't your ace, but he was good. He helped you build that large lead all summer. The team lost. Glavine's implosion only sealed the collapse of the entire team.

[metfan13]

And what I'm saying is that AS A MET Glavine was no better than the oft maligned Steve Trachsel.



G IP H K BB CG ShO ERA H/9 K/9 BB/9
164 1005 1057 516 323 4 3 3.97 9.46 4.62 2.89
160 956 967 580 354 5 4 4.09 9.10 5.46 3.33

[Rocket Fan Man]

I'll bow out here, since I don't have anything else to add, but I want to make sure y'all realize Glavine pitched in more than one game for you. He gave you better than league average production at the twilight of his career. Sure, he wasn't your ace, but he was good. He helped you build that large lead all summer. The team lost. Glavine's implosion only sealed the collapse of the entire team.

I think BoofBonser hit it right on the nail...
"He help you build that large lead all summer. The team lost"
I think the Met's lost like 14 of their last 15 games. And that last game the Met's could only muster up 5 hits and 1 run. What's the difference if you lose 8-1 or 2-1 Met's still would have lost. You cant expect a pitcher at that age to be consistent. Pitchers like Clemens and Maddox Wells Johnson all have had some awful game the last couple years, their old it's going to happen now and then. It's just to bad it came at the worst possible time.

[metfan13]

I think BoofBonser hit it right on the nail...
"He help you build that large lead all summer. The team lost"
I think the Met's lost like 14 of their last 15 games. And that last game the Met's could only muster up 5 hits and 1 run. What's the difference if you lose 8-1 or 2-1 Met's still would have lost. You cant expect a pitcher at that age to be consistent. Pitchers like Clemens and Maddox Wells Johnson all have had some awful game the last couple years, their old it's going to happen now and then. It's just to bad it came at the worst possible time.

It should be pretty obvious that trailing 7-0 in the middle of the first affects a teams differently than 0-0, 1-0, 3-0, even 4-0

[GIANT]

Ralph Branca, Billy Buckner, Tony Kubek have been labeled by some as the reason the Dodgers, Red Sox and Yankees lost either playoff games or World Series games. In each instance, they have been wrongly maligned. Tom Glavine is not solely responsible for the Mets collapse. The Mets played 16 games this year in which they had leads of 3 runs or more from the seventh inning on. They lost all sixteen. It was a complete team collapse.

[metfan13]

Ralph Branca, Billy Buckner, Tony Kubek have been labeled by some as the reason the Dodgers, Red Sox and Yankees lost either playoff games or World Series games. In each instance, they have been wrongly maligned. Tom Glavine is not solely responsible for the Mets collapse. The Mets played 16 games this year in which they had leads of 3 runs or more from the seventh inning on. They lost all sixteen. It was a complete team collapse.

He's the only one of those pitchers going to the Hall of Fame. He coughed it up big time. His signing was a big nothing for the Mets. I'll be happy he's out of here.

[GIANT]

He's the only one of those pitchers going to the Hall of Fame. He coughed it up big time. His signing was a big nothing for the Mets. I'll be happy he's out of here.

You missed the point. It's the New York Mets not the New York Glavines.

[NYMets523]

Ralph Branca, Billy Buckner, Tony Kubek have been labeled by some as the reason the Dodgers, Red Sox and Yankees lost either playoff games or World Series games. In each instance, they have been wrongly maligned. Tom Glavine is not solely responsible for the Mets collapse. The Mets played 16 games this year in which they had leads of 3 runs or more from the seventh inning on. They lost all sixteen. It was a complete team collapse.

All those collapses are team collapses.

[metfan13]

He's the only one of those pitchers going to the Hall of Fame. He coughed it up big time. His signing was a big nothing for the Mets. I'll be happy he's out of here.

You missed the point. It's the New York Mets not the New York Glavines.

Then I suppose I've heard the last of anyone ever mentioning Beltran striking out last season?

[Westlake]

Hopefully. All that trash that was spoken about Beltran was unnecessary as well. Teams win and lose, not players.

[milladrive]

Then I suppose I've heard the last of anyone ever mentioning Beltran striking out last season?

One can only hope so.

Next year it'll be someone else, I'm sure. :rolleyes:


BTW, in this city, things are different. You could be great but if you choke when it matters the most, you're hated. Especially if you choke in a way that would make a bum like Jeff Weaver shake his head. And your choke completed the biggest collapse in baseball history. We may need some perspective on his Mets career. However, his last 4 starts are a very large scar on his Mets career. We'll never forget them. Never.

As a lifelong New Yorker, I ask that, at least in this instance, I not be spoken for. Thank you. :cool:

[metfan13]

One can only hope so.

Next year it'll be someone else, I'm sure. :rolleyes:



As a lifelong New Yorker, I ask that, at least in this instance, I not be spoken for. Thank you. :cool:

I agree.

Although in answer to that other post, I think I've provided the perspective on his Mets career. Come on, did ANYone think it would be that close?

[Matty]

Hopefully they remember the way he choked in game 6 of the 95 World Series.

He was 37 years old when he signed with the Mets. Did you expect him to pitch as well as he did in his prime with the Braves?
He averaged over 200 innings a year with an ERA below league average from age 37 to 41. That's just terrible.

He was coming off an 18-11 2.96 ERA year with the Braves when the Mets signed him. His last 3 years with the Braves, he was 55-27 and avg. 228 IP. He wasn't the 6-inning pitcher he became with the Mets.

The Mets paid him based on his recent past performance. It was not unreasonable to expect something close to that. He was not close to that. They didn't need another Steve Traschel.

[GIANT]

Then I suppose I've heard the last of anyone ever mentioning Beltran striking out last season?

Again, one player is not responsible for a win or a loss. You win as a team and lose as a team. The Mets collapse this year was a collective team effort.

[NYMets523]

Yes, but there are always moments in failures you remember the most. Glavine's 1 out abomination will be the lasting image of the Mets' collapse because it capped it all off.

[cbenson5]

He was coming off an 18-11 2.96 ERA year with the Braves when the Mets signed him. His last 3 years with the Braves, he was 55-27 and avg. 228 IP. He wasn't the 6-inning pitcher he became with the Mets.

The Mets paid him based on his recent past performance. It was not unreasonable to expect something close to that. He was not close to that. They didn't need another Steve Traschel.

So you expected a 37 year old pitcher to have no dropoff. There was no question that he was going to decline. He averaged 201.04 innings in his five years with the Mets with a 109 ERA+. That is extremely good for a pitcher from age 37 to 41. I don't think any ballplayer could meet your expectations.

And to the Traschel was better than Glavine arguments:

Traschel (from age 30 to 35) averaged 158.9 innings per year with the Mets with a 103 ERA+. Solid performance but not the equal of the twilight of Glavine's career.

I think you guys just need to vent some anger before you can think clearly. I'll bow out of this argument and maybe go read comments on the AJC blaming Chipper Jones for the Braves not making the playoffs. It's always the top players fault for a teams shortcomings.

[metfan13]

Throw out anything you want, or any expectations you want to retroactively set, fact is Glavine was no better a pitcher for the Mets than Trachsel. Which is a disappointment.

Let's not forget the regular failures against Atlanta his first 3 years here. He really didn't do much for this franchise.

[Westlake]

Throw out anything you want, or any expectations you want to retroactively set, fact is Glavine was no better a pitcher for the Mets than Trachsel. Which is a disappointment.

Let's not forget the regular failures against Atlanta his first 3 years here. He really didn't do much for this franchise.

Not completely true...

Glavine's 5 seasons by ERA+: 119, 118, 113, 96, 94
Traschel's 5 seasons by ERA+: 116, 112, 107, 92, 87

Glavine was better in every single season. Not by a ton, but I really dont' know what you expected when you signed a pitcher nearing the end of his career. Gave you 3 pretty good years, and 2 mediocre ones. If you were looking for a bonafide ace, I think you looked to the wrong type of pitcher.

[metfan13]

Not completely true...

Glavine's 5 seasons by ERA+: 119, 118, 113, 96, 94
Traschel's 5 seasons by ERA+: 116, 112, 107, 92, 87

Glavine was better in every single season. Not by a ton, but I really dont' know what you expected when you signed a pitcher nearing the end of his career. Gave you 3 pretty good years, and 2 mediocre ones. If you were looking for a bonafide ace, I think you looked to the wrong type of pitcher.

There's more to it than ERA+. Stats posted earlier show Trachsel pretty much as effective as Glavine

[Ralph Zig Tyko]

... for a Mets fan to have an objective opinion about Glavine's overall value to the franchise... Sad for all, he'll be remembered more for Sunday's outing than anything else.
Move over, Ralph Branca Bitterman. [I know, Ralph, you think Leo stole the signs and you were robbed 56 years ago today. Well, cry me a friggin' river, meat.]

[Dalkowski110]

This reminds me a bit of the perception of Frank Lary by my mother and father, though baseball history in general will likely be far more kind to Glavine than Lary. Mom, a Tigers fan, remembers him during his prime when he was beating the Yankees 75% of the time he faced them, making Mantle and Berra look silly at the plate, etc. Dad, a Mets fan, remembers him as a washed up swingman barely hanging onto to a shadow of a career, though he knew he'd been very good in Detroit before he hurt his arm. Tom Glavine will be remembered as an incredible pitcher for the Atlanta Braves and a man worthy of being called the best pitcher in the National League some years...and likely just an aging, back-end-of-the-rotation starter with the Mets who was too erratic to be considered anything special.

[MattD1972]

I was a huge Glavine fan from his days in Atlanta, and I was thrilled when he signed with the Mets. Heck, they even signed his brother to a minor leagu deal to keep him happy. But it was painful to watch his decline in the Howe years, as a result of age and the taxi crash. His getting to 300 wins fairly quickly this year (At the end of last year, there was some thought he would never make it) gave some hope that there was something left in the tank. September wrecked that thought. Especially afte the last 2 disastrous starts, and not even being really, really angry about sunday, there is no way in hell you can bring him back, at a raise. h
His reputation is now even worse than Trachsel's at the end of last year, if that's possible.

[moebarguy]

There's a rumor on ESPN (I can only see the title), that the Nationals are interested in Glavine...can anyone find out more about this?

[Dalkowski110]

I allowed my Insider subscription to expire, but Tim Dierkes went into some detail on that rumor in mlbtraderumors.com, I think. His analysis is fine, but he doesn't source anything. Might be idle speculation.

[pablo1]

is tom glavine definitley on his way out of new york? :noidea

[NYMets523]

Move over, Ralph Branca Bitterman. [I know, Ralph, you think Leo stole the signs and you were robbed 56 years ago today. Well, cry me a friggin' river, meat.]

Ralph Branca has actually embraced the event. He and Bobby Thompson have done signing together for years. One of my dad's friends (who writes for the Post) knows Ralph very well. My dad has met him on many occasions and has become very friendly with him.

[metfan13]

is tom glavine definitley on his way out of new york? :noidea


One can only hope.

[The Thomas J.]

I would just like to say thank you to Tom Glavine, thanks for killing us for the past 20 years, thanks for unravelling when we needed you the most! You will be remembered for melting down when the presure was on & not you're 300th win, BURN IN HELL!

Warmest regards,
The Thomas J.
:twocents:

[Joltin Joe Giradio]

He was coming off an 18-11 2.96 ERA year with the Braves when the Mets signed him. His last 3 years with the Braves, he was 55-27 and avg. 228 IP. He wasn't the 6-inning pitcher he became with the Mets.

The Mets paid him based on his recent past performance. It was not unreasonable to expect something close to that. He was not close to that. They didn't need another Steve Traschel.

Well, when Glavine was signed. I hated the deal because I knew he wasn't worth the money. I posted how much I hate the signing (Both the length and money. I also despised the Floyd signing too-I predicted Mets would be lucky if they got two seasons in which he didn't miss significant time out of four) on the Mets board and got blasted for being a hater. Meanwhile, many of those people were predicting 20 win seasons out of him. Probably the same people running him out of town now.

Btw, Glavine is yet another reason why the ATL org. is so much greater than the NYM one. They are smart enough to part with guys that they know aren't worth the money regardless of service time. They punted Glavine, they punted Maddux, and now they will punt Andruw. Meanwhile, the Mets are the ones SIGNING these guys that smart teams pass on.

It is a great break for the Mets that he decided to decline the option. The team saves 10M that it can use to sign an easily comparable pitcher.

With a pitcher friendly park like Shea, it's very easy to replace someone like Glavine. You throw some ham-and-egger like Jeff Suppan here, and he would give you a sub 4.00 ERA and 1.35 WHIP.

[LA Mets Fan]

As much as I appreciate what he has done for Mets I am glad to see him leave. I doubt he'll play for any club but Braves from now on. Everybody knows he wants to retire as Brave in the worst way. Lets hope he'll have meltdown in September for them as he did for the Mets.

[STLCards2]

2003: Glavine's overall numbers were horrible.

2004: Glavine was in top 10 in IP and had an ERA+ almost 120. If it were not for the taxi accident, his numbers would have been better. His poor record was more an effect of the Mets' horrible offense than Glavine. Makes All-Star team.

2005: Glavine again was a near top 10 IP guy with an ERA+ around 120. Interpretation: he was around the 12-13th most valuable pitcher in the NL both seasons.

2006: Only a blood clot kept him from being a top 10 IP pitcher as he goes 15-7 and posts a 113 ERA+. He also had a very good postseason. Makes All-Star team.

2007: Threw over 200 innings again while throwing 24 quality starts (something like 5th in the NL). Wins his 300th game. Glavine posted an ERA of around 128 during 31 of his starts. Problem: in the Yankees game, Tigers game, Dodgers game, and Marlins game, his ERA+ was 17. Glavine had one of the most extreme outlier-filled seasons in recent memory. During his 8 losses, his ERA was around 10. Other 24 games? Around 3.2. He was eons better than his ERA indicated. Numbers before 3-game collapse: 13-6, 109 ERA+.

Conclusion:

1. Glavine was much more successfull as a Met than many are crediting him for.

2. Of course he isn't great anymore...he is 42 for goodness sake!

3. Many of the people in NY bashing him the most are individuals who were praising him a matter of two weeks ago.

4. People who only remeber a couple of bad outings at the end are missing the big picture.

5. The Mets completelty self-destructed from the top down- including fan favorites like Wagner and Reyes. Heck,if Beltran or Delgado played up to their potentials (cotracts) or if Pedro could ever stay even the littlest bit healthy, the Mets would have won the division by a long-shot. Glavine should not be the lone goat here.

[metfan13]

Could create a lot more allstars if we could just ignore 10 bad starts a year.

[metfan13]

If you drop Maine's losses he's 15-0 2.34 ERA!!! Amazing how that happens.

[NYMets523]

He also had a very good postseason.
Only 2 games. He got hit hard in his 3rd game after Trachsel's "gem". He never stepped up when the team needed it.


Numbers before 3-game collapse: 13-6, 109 ERA+.
Nothing special.



3. Many of the people in NY bashing him the most are individuals who were praising him a matter of two weeks ago.
No one praised hiim 2 weeks ago.


4. People who only remeber a couple of bad outings at the end are missing the big picture.
Most of his Mets career was pretty much worthless until 2006.


5. The Mets completelty self-destructed from the top down- including fan favorites like Wagner and Reyes. Heck,if Beltran or Delgado played up to their potentials (cotracts) or if Pedro could ever stay even the littlest bit healthy, the Mets would have won the division by a long-shot. Glavine should not be the lone goat here.
Wagner lost his appeal to the fans in August when he blew just about every save. Beltran was injured all season, Delgado is extinct. Pedro would have been back sooner but they let the doctors dictate his schedule. The Mets also would have won the division if Glavine had won one of his last 4 starts. He had a 9 ERA in those 4 combined. He's going to be the goat for this and he deserves it.

[BoofBonser26]

Most of his Mets career was pretty much worthless until 2006.


Did you even read Card's great post?

[NYMets523]

Did you even read Card's great post?

Everything before 2006 was whipped cream on crap.

[metfan13]

2003: Glavine's overall numbers were horrible.

2004: Glavine was in top 10 in IP and had an ERA+ almost 120. If it were not for the taxi accident, his numbers would have been better. His poor record was more an effect of the Mets' horrible offense than Glavine. Makes All-Star team.

2005: Glavine again was a near top 10 IP guy with an ERA+ around 120. Interpretation: he was around the 12-13th most valuable pitcher in the NL both seasons.

2006: Only a blood clot kept him from being a top 10 IP pitcher as he goes 15-7 and posts a 113 ERA+. He also had a very good postseason. Makes All-Star team.

2007: Threw over 200 innings again while throwing 24 quality starts (something like 5th in the NL). Wins his 300th game. Glavine posted an ERA of around 128 during 31 of his starts. Problem: in the Yankees game, Tigers game, Dodgers game, and Marlins game, his ERA+ was 17. Glavine had one of the most extreme outlier-filled seasons in recent memory. During his 8 losses, his ERA was around 10. Other 24 games? Around 3.2. He was eons better than his ERA indicated. Numbers before 3-game collapse: 13-6, 109 ERA+.

Conclusion:

1. Glavine was much more successfull as a Met than many are crediting him for.

2. Of course he isn't great anymore...he is 42 for goodness sake!

3. Many of the people in NY bashing him the most are individuals who were praising him a matter of two weeks ago.

4. People who only remeber a couple of bad outings at the end are missing the big picture.

5. The Mets completelty self-destructed from the top down- including fan favorites like Wagner and Reyes. Heck,if Beltran or Delgado played up to their potentials (cotracts) or if Pedro could ever stay even the littlest bit healthy, the Mets would have won the division by a long-shot. Glavine should not be the lone goat here.

Sorry, but 20th isn't nearly top 10

And in 2006 with the extra couple of starts he may have gotten up to 19th or 20th.

And in 2004 why assume that he would have pitched well if not for the taxi accident? Maybe he would have melted down at the end? Who knows?

[bassinger]

Hail to mr. Glavine for his greatness to the mets ballclub.

[metfan13]

Hail to mr. Glavine for his greatness to the mets ballclub.

Can't you go back and wallow in pity on your own team's forum?

[bassinger]

Can't you go back and wallow in pity on your own team's forum?

testy testy, who won the divison

[NYMets523]

testy testy, who won the divison

The same team that got swept by the Wild Card.

[bassinger]

The same team that got swept by the Wild Card.
who lost 14 of there last 20 games. oh and who was leading the divison by 7 game in september

[metfan13]

testy testy, who won the divison

Oddly enough the Mets now have a better W-L pct for 2007. Nice job representing the division there.

[bassinger]

Oddly enough the Mets now have a better W-L pct for 2007. Nice job representing the division there.


Well i just remember my team having the strength to come out on top with having half the teams salary on the dL

[milladrive]

Again, one player is not responsible for a win or a loss. You win as a team and lose as a team. The Mets collapse this year was a collective team effort.

Precisely correct.

Also, terrific post, STLCards2. :nod:

From some of the things I've read in this thread by bona fide Met fans, I'm almost ashamed. Not sure if I'm more ashamed for the fans posting these things or for my being part of the fandom, but it hardly matters. Thankfully, there are enough sensible posts putting things into proper perspective to alleviate that feeling.

Oh, and please, no team-to-team bickering here. Thanx. :cap:

[STLCards2]

Precisely correct.

Also, terrific post, STLCards2. :nod:

From some of the things I've read in this thread by bona fide Met fans, I'm almost ashamed. Not sure if I'm more ashamed for the fans posting these things or for my being part of the fandom, but it hardly matters. Thankfully, there are enough sensible posts putting things into proper perspective to alleviate that feeling.

Oh, and please, no team-to-team bickering here. Thanx. :cap:

Okay, so Glavine's IP were top 20, not close to top 10. Still in the upper echelon. Still top 15-20% of all NL starters. With ERA+ in the mid- high 110's, my comment about him being a top 12-13 pitcher from '04-'06 is still true. Did I mention that he was in his 40's then? Most young pitchers can't do that now,consistantly.

The statement that Mets fans weren't applauding Glavine is untrue. During the Sept. 14 Phillies game and the Sept. game before that, he recieved numerous standing ovations, similar to the many he recieved during the first few productive outings he had at home after winning 300.

Before his 3-game disatser down the stretch, he only gave up 4 runs over his previous 28 innings. From the All-Star break till that point, he was having one of the best second halves in the league. His only hicups were the San Diego game and the L.A. Besides that, he was fantasitc.

As far as pitchers looking better if you take out their ten worst starts? Of course they are better. However, like I mentioed, the average pitcher with a 4.4 ERA will post around a 3.00 ERA for about 10 victories and about 5.50 for about 10 losses, with no-desisions being around thier mean ERA.

Glavine posted an ERA of 2.00 for 13 wins and an ERA of 10 for 8 losses. He also had a lot of no desisions too. In fact, a couple of his losses were "tough luck losses", where he had no cheap wins all season. Bottom line: 5 horrible starts made a very good season look mediocre. More so that other pitcher's outliers. If you took Glavine's worst 6 starts of his career, four of them probably came this year. Other than that, he was very good. Even though I am not a huge quality start fan, being 4th or 5th in the league with 24 is very admirable. It just shows how miserable he was during 4-5 of his starts.

If you looked at Glavine's ERM (earned run median - which many statitians are starting to go to) it is quite impressive. In comparison to Maine, he was similar to Glavine. His ERM was better than his ERA by a larger margain than the average pitcher. Just not as extreme as Glavine.

Again, nobody is claiming Glavine is still great, just still an above average pitcher at an age most pro atheletes hare ineffective or retired. Of course he was horrible the last 3 games, and he deserves critisism for those outings, but to make a case that he was ineffective for the whole 5 years is not factual.

About Maine, before his one-hitter, Maine was pretty horrible most of the second half. Why does one good start let him off the hook? The first loss of the season counts just as much as the last.

[Matty]

I don't mean to look a gift horse in the mouth, but I don't understand why Glavine turned down $13 mil. Does he think someone will give him more?

[NYMets523]

He's not sure if he will even play again.

[milladrive]

I don't mean to look a gift horse in the mouth, but I don't understand why Glavine turned down $13 mil. Does he think someone will give him more?

By the time one gets to the tax bracket Glavine's in, it's not about the money anymore. He can follow his heart.